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View Full Version : Buehrle vs Willis


Buehrle > Wood
01-17-2006, 02:23 PM
I got into an interesting conversation today with one of my buddies. He was talking about Dontrelle Willis getting his 1 year deal with the Fish and how he was one of the best pitchers in the league (true), and how any team would like to have him (true). And he said how he will probably cash in big with the like of the Yankees or Red Sox. But I told him there was one team that wouldn't necessarily need him, our White Sox. He then went on to say that Willis was better than ALL of our starters (which I pointed out we have 6 of) Which I did not agree with. I told him that Buehrle was better, and that an argument could be made for Contreras as well. Looking at the stats from 2005 its pretty close, with a slight edge to Willis

2005
Buehrle 236.2 IP 16-8 3.12 ERA (3rd AL) 1.18 WHIP (6th AL)
Willis 236.1 IP 22-10 2.63 ERA (3rd NL) 1.13 WHIP (6th NL)

My reasoning for Buehrle being better was that A) he pitches in the AL B) he has been doing this for 5 straight years where as Willis had a subpar 2004 with 10-11 record and a 4.02 ERA good for 24th in the NL! And we all know Willis had a spectatcular rookie campaign (so did Buehrle in his first year as a starter in '01) I also added that Buehrle is one the only pitchers that has a decent shot at reaching the 300 win plateau barring injury. He told me I was being a homer, but I think Buehrle is the better pitcher. Am I wrong? What do you think?

mjharrison72
01-17-2006, 02:30 PM
I'd say it's very close, but for the reasons you mention (AL, lefty, longer career), Buehrle gets an edge. They actually have very similar numbers last year, though Willis' ERA and WHIP are definitely impressive. I would definitely want him on the Sox if the chance ever came.

EDIT: Ugh, forgot Willis is a lefty, too; I swear my mental picture of his delivery is righty! But also just noticed that Willis easily had the best year of his career last year, whereas Buehrle had another solid year in a career of consistent solid pitching.

TheKittle
01-17-2006, 02:31 PM
I got into an interesting conversation today with one of my buddies. He was talking about Dontrelle Willis getting his 1 year deal with the Fish and how he was one of the best pitchers in the league (true), and how any team would like to have him (true). And he said how he will probably cash in big with the like of the Yankees or Red Sox. But I told him there was one team that wouldn't necessarily need him, our White Sox. He then went on to say that Willis was better than ALL of our starters (which I pointed out we have 6 of) Which I did not agree with. I told him that Buehrle was better, and that an argument could be made for Contreras as well. Looking at the stats from 2005 its pretty close, with a slight edge to Willis

2005
Buehrle 236.2 IP 16-8 3.12 ERA (3rd AL) 1.18 WHIP (6th AL)
Willis 236.1 IP 22-10 2.63 ERA (3rd NL) 1.13 WHIP (6th NL)

My reasoning for Buehrle being better was that A) he pitches in the AL B) he's a southpaw and good lefties are harder to come by and C) he has been doing this for 5 straight years where as Willis had a subpar 2004 with 10-11 record and a 4.02 ERA good for 24th in the NL! And we all know Willis had a spectatcular rookie campaign (so did Buehrle in his first year as a starter in '01) I also added that Buehrle is one the only pitchers that has a decent shot at reaching the 300 win plateau barring injury. He told me I was being a homer, but I think Buehrle is the better pitcher. Am I wrong? What do you think?

Umm Willis is a southpaw too so reason B is a wash.

DaleJRFan
01-17-2006, 02:32 PM
I think the real question to ask, especially of your friend, is which STAFF would you rather have?? A staff of ALL #1s and #2s like the White Sox or the Marlins' staff of Dontrelle + 4 unproven rookies?? I'll take Buerhle, Garland, Garcia, Contreras, Vazquez, McCarthy OVER Willis, Mitre, Vargas, Olsen, Moehler, Johnson ANY day....

veeter
01-17-2006, 02:32 PM
You do know that Wiliis is a lefty too, don't you?

Buehrle > Wood
01-17-2006, 02:46 PM
You do know that Wiliis is a lefty too, don't you?
Wow, for some reason I thought he was a righty :redface:

mjharrison I'm glad I'm not the only one

soxfanatlanta
01-17-2006, 03:14 PM
This is a tough question; MB is one of my favorite players on the team right now, just gimme the ball as fast as you can. His consistency is downright uncanny, the guy is going ot get you 15+ wins a year for the next 3-5 seasons (he is 26). He could have a 20 win season in there somewhere.

On the other hand, you have Willis (24 years old). As of today, his is not as consistent as MB, but his potential to win 20-24+ games over the next few years is much better, IMO.

So, if I was looking for a #1 pitcher, I'd take Willis, but if I was looking for a #2 spot, I'd take MB.

soxfanreggie
01-17-2006, 04:24 PM
Even if Willis is better, how good can a team expect to do if Sergio Mitre is your #2. Dontrelle will win around 15 or 16 this year...he can't bat more than once around the line-up and the Marlins haven't left him much besides Cabrera. They might be better off playing him in the OF or at 1B the days he isn't pitching...sad but he would probably bat better than most of his teammates.

HomeFish
01-17-2006, 04:33 PM
What Buehrle has on Willis is consistency. Willis has been bipolar in his career; see the 2003 playoffs, for instance. When he's at the "good" pole, though, he's light years ahead of Buehrle as a pitcher. When he's at the "bad" pole, however....it gets ugly.

TheKittle
01-17-2006, 04:33 PM
One thing about MB, I thought it was bush league when he cried like a baby after getting ripped by Texas, about how the Rangers cheat. If you're going to be an ace, don't cry when you just got shelled. Step up and win the game even if the other team cheated, which I doubt.

A real ace would have stopped the losing streak the White Sox had. Too bad MB proved he's not a real ace.

HomeFish
01-17-2006, 04:36 PM
A real ace would have stopped the losing streak the White Sox had.

Um, did you follow the White Sox in the early 2000's? Mark was a textbook stopper around 2002.

TheKittle
01-17-2006, 04:50 PM
Um, did you follow the White Sox in the early 2000's? Mark was a textbook stopper around 2002.

Get real. The White Sox finished 13 games behind in 2002. Don't tell me that was a pennant race.

Joosh
01-17-2006, 04:53 PM
One thing about MB, I thought it was bush league when he cried like a baby after getting ripped by Texas, about how the Rangers cheat. If you're going to be an ace, don't cry when you just got shelled. Step up and win the game even if the other team cheated, which I doubt.

A real ace would have stopped the losing streak the White Sox had. Too bad MB proved he's not a real ace.

:dtroll:

Whine all you want, Buehrle is one of the best pitchers in Sox history. Build a bridge and get over it.

ChiSoxNationPres
01-17-2006, 05:27 PM
pitchers in the NL have better ERAs because there is no DH and the teams play small ball not long ball.

ChiSoxNationPres
01-17-2006, 05:33 PM
I think the real question to ask, especially of your friend, is which STAFF would you rather have?? A staff of ALL #1s and #2s like the White Sox or the Marlins' staff of Dontrelle + 4 unproven rookies?? I'll take Buerhle, Garland, Garcia, Contreras, Vazquez, McCarthy OVER Willis, Mitre, Vargas, Olsen, Moehler, Johnson ANY day....



Thats pretty obvious, none of the Marlins' bottom four pitchers are half as good as any of the sox six.

lostletters
01-17-2006, 05:35 PM
Remember Willis pitches in the NL. This DOES matter. You can always add another .5 to 1 on an era of NL pitchers just because they do not have the DH rule.

I always thought that AL pitchers who put up big numbers are always more impressive then NL pitchers. There is not only the DH rule in general, but the AL tends to be better offensively in general. There is alot less room for error.
I always saw the NL as being extremely deceptive in the pitching numbers.

So I will argue that Buerhle is better or as good as Willis. Buerhle is certianly one of the most consistant pitchers in baseball. He is one pitcher that I wish the White Sox keep around as long as possible, and probably one of the few pitchers worth a high salary because of his leadership skills (which I do not think Willis has to the same extent). Buerhle has so many intangibles and pitches in the AL.

ChiSoxNationPres
01-17-2006, 05:43 PM
Remember Willis pitches in the NL. This DOES matter. You can always add another .5 to 1 on an era of NL pitchers just because they do not have the DH rule.

I always thought that AL pitchers who put up big numbers are always more impressive then NL pitchers. There is not only the DH rule in general, but the AL tends to be better offensively in general. There is alot less room for error.
I always saw the NL as being extremely deceptive in the pitching numbers.

So I will argue that Buerhle is better or as good as Willis. Buerhle is certianly one of the most consistant pitchers in baseball. He is one pitcher that I wish the White Sox keep around as long as possible, and probably one of the few pitchers worth a high salary because of his leadership skills (which I do not think Willis has to the same extent). Buerhle has so many intangibles and pitches in the AL.



I just said that.

ma-gaga
01-17-2006, 05:49 PM
Remember Willis pitches in the NL. This DOES matter. You can always add another .5 to 1 on an era of NL pitchers just because they do not have the DH rule.

10% is an easier rule of thumb. If a guy pitches a 2.00 ERA in the NL, I'd equal him to a 2.20 ERA in the AL (4.00 = 4.40). The truth is a bit higher than 10%, about 1/9, but some pitchers can hit.

He then went on to say that Willis was better than ALL of our starters (which I pointed out we have 6 of) Which I did not agree with.

I think you are going to lose this argument. Buerhle is a damn good pitcher, but Willis was better last year. Not by a lot, but I'd take Willis over Buerhle.

The, "The W.Sox top 5/6, are better than anyone elses" is fine. But there are some individual pitchers that are better than MB.

Buehrle > Wood
01-17-2006, 06:21 PM
I think you are going to lose this argument. Buerhle is a damn good pitcher, but Willis was better last year. Not by a lot, but I'd take Willis over Buerhle.

The, "The W.Sox top 5/6, are better than anyone elses" is fine. But there are some individual pitchers that are better than MB.
I was not arguing with my friend that Buehrle was better last year. If you read my original post I said that Willis had a slightly better year. But I believe right now, Buehrle is the better pitcher because he's done year in year out Willis hasn't done that yet.

And interesting side note. Later when having this same conversation a cub fan friend of ours was in the room and said the following..."well how many innings has Mark Buehrle pitched the last few years?" :?: This is when I lost it...Buehrle has led the AL in IP the last 2 seasons!

soxinem1
01-17-2006, 06:48 PM
A very tough, but pleasant dilema to have. I'd pick Buehrle because of the simple fact he is an off-speed pitcher and Willis, though no flame thrower, thows harder. It's good to have a different variety of types and styles in a starting staff, like the Sox did in 2005.

Both have great fastballs, though Willis depends upon the KO a little more. Both are tough to run on, and Willis has become all but impossible to even lead off against. Both have also bouced back and made great adjustment after rough times, as Buehrle did in early 2003 and Willis from September 2003 to June 2004. And both were pretty low draft picks. It just goes to show what a good head can do for a player. Willis was a throw in from the cubs and I remember MB trying to stick as a reliever with the 2000 Sox in ST.

The make up and moxie these two have is just great to watch, they are a throw back to times when pitchers were just more than the guy who threw the ball. These two control the tempo of the game, and do it very well.

heeman31
01-17-2006, 08:27 PM
sorry had to join just to reply.

keep in mind where both of these guys pitch home games as well. buehrle in a hitters park, willis in a pitchers park. you could put the white sox rotation in any pitchers park in the league and their numbers would flourish even more than they did last year.