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UMSox
01-16-2006, 12:58 AM
Well Teddy Greenstein sure as **** doesn't think so

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060115soxbellerowcorner,1,4059002.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Belle was paid more than $97 million during his career, which ended at 34 when his hip gave out on him. His condition worsened about the same time John Rocker forgot how to pitch. Oh, sweet justice.

and that's just the parting shot.
I was just getting into baseball round 97-98 so I was still in my "hero-worship everyone on the Sox" phase.. (note that this phase somehow, someway didn't apply to Jaime Duhvarro :tongue:) Is all this stuff about ol Albert really true? Was it apparent during his Sox tenure? Teddy goes so overboard on what is not apparently an editorial that it makes one wonder if he really DOES have a personal axe to grind .

[EDIT] BELLE BELLE BELLE BELLE *writes on blackboard 500 times*

chaerulez
01-16-2006, 01:12 AM
I say he's a longshot. While he enjoyed a half decade run as probalby the premier slugger in the game, most players that end their careers at such an early age don't get in. I know Kirby Puckett is in (I don't see how they won't let Jim Rice and Andre Dawson in if they put in Puckett), but Puckett was well liked and played his entire career with one team (and was the face of the franchise for many years). Things like that matter to some hall of fame voters.

Banix12
01-16-2006, 03:41 AM
I say he's a longshot. While he enjoyed a half decade run as probalby the premier slugger in the game, most players that end their careers at such an early age don't get in. I know Kirby Puckett is in (I don't see how they won't let Jim Rice and Andre Dawson in if they put in Puckett), but Puckett was well liked and played his entire career with one team (and was the face of the franchise for many years). Things like that matter to some hall of fame voters.

Puckett largely kept his problems private which would probably make the big difference there. Puckett didn't really get any bad publicity until his 2002 trial for sexual assault (he was acquitted I believe) and his very public divorce after which his wife told sports illustrated of Puckett's violent history of spousal abuse and multiple extramarital affairs.

None of this was known publically until after he was elected to the hall of fame. Who knows what would have happened in the voting if the public knew sooner. At the time of the voting he was considered to be a model citizen who caught a tough break with his health problem.


And UMSox, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that a vast, vast majority of the awful things that the media says about Albert Belle is true. If one reporter says something bad about a player it seems like it has a personal axe to grind. However in Albert Belle's case just about everybody seems to have the same opinion that he could be a pretty awful human being when he wanted to. And this is more than media guys. Teammates, coaches, fans, all of them seem to share this opinion and we have plenty of documented evidence of his behavior to back it up.

soxfanatlanta
01-16-2006, 06:25 AM
However in Albert Belle's case just about everybody seems to have the same opinion that he could be a pretty awful human being when he wanted to. And this is more than media guys. Teammates, coaches, fans, all of them seem to share this opinion and we have plenty of documented evidence of his behavior to back it up.

Fortunately, I never knew the guy, but I agree; if there are enough people saying the same thing about Belle, you kinda have to believe it. However, despite the fact the he was a complete <insert bad word here>, you cannot take that into consideration. One of THE biggest *******s in the history of baseball was a guy named Ty Cobb. There was no misunderstanding him, he hated everybody under the sun for whatever reason that suited him. He was the first the hall. In no way shape or form, would I compare the player Belle to Cobb. I'm just saying that you cannot look at a guy's personality to determine if they are HOF material.

Belle had one hell of a run in the 90's, and every time he faced us, I crossed my fingers. Is that enough? I'm not sure, I'd wish he had a few more years before he went down, so I would have to say "no" today. Ask me again in 2 years, I might have a different answer.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-16-2006, 07:10 AM
Well Teddy Greenstein sure as **** doesn't think so

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060115soxbellerowcorner,1,4059002.story?coll=cs-home-headlines



and that's just the parting shot.
I was just getting into baseball round 97-98 so I was still in my "hero-worship everyone on the Sox" phase.. (note that this phase somehow, someway didn't apply to Jaime Duhvarro :tongue:) Is all this stuff about ol Albert really true? Was it apparent during his Sox tenure? Teddy goes so overboard on what is not apparently an editorial that it makes one wonder if he really DOES have a personal axe to grind .

[EDIT] BELLE BELLE BELLE BELLE *writes on blackboard 500 times*

Belle was a piece of **** for the most part. However, this should have no bearing on a Hall of Fame vote (although it does).

However, I could give a rats ass about how Belle treated the media (the fact that he cheated, was an ******* to fans who paid his salary, etc. is another story). The author wrote it is "a crime" for shunning the media. Some writers / broadcasters are bigger pieces of **** than Albert Belle (insert Windsock).

It is just as annoying for the media to whine about players as it was the Cubs whining about Stone and Carey. Par for the course.

Tragg
01-16-2006, 09:26 AM
PUckett was the face of 2 world series teams, a happy guy adored by the media, a fixture on all star teams, whose career ended fairly abruptly. There are a lot of players like Puckett in the Hall and a lot of players like Puckett not in the Hall. Not a lot of consistency.

Same with Belle- there are certainly players with Belle and less credentials in the Hall. But, he was considered a jerk. FWIW, he put up with a lot of crap, too - actually, he didn't put up with it, he reacted, which is one of the reasons for his reputation.

SOXintheBURGH
01-16-2006, 09:43 AM
Do the ABs he has as Joey Belle count towards his totals?

32nd&Wallace
01-16-2006, 10:57 AM
Some highlights of the article:

*Belle berates a Sox broadcaster for getting asprin in the training room
*Cursed out members of the media
*Told Schuler to **** off after he approached Belle about his attitude
*Domestic battery
*Could have cared less about throwing a bat in the stands, hitting a girl and bloodying her face (did this happen while he was with the Sox)
*Career numbers are misleading, especially with the Sox.
*Batgate


Ouch! I didnt know Belle was that big of a jerk. I always thought he was just kind of aloof.

ALthough I was living out of the country during his tenure with the Sox. Makes Barry Bonds look like Jim Thome. Anyone know who the Sox broadcaster whom Belle yelled at for getting an asprin?

UMSox
01-16-2006, 10:58 AM
Do the ABs he has as Joey Belle count towards his totals?
Well if they do, it's surprising how similar Joey's stats look to everybody's other favorite Hall candidate, Big Frank, after you take into account that Frank has played 4 more seasons in the majors.

162 game averages:
Belle Thomas
HR: 40 37
RBI: 130 121
AVG: .295 .307
BB: 72 121
K: 101 96

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/belleal01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thomafr04.shtml

Now it's true that the Hall loves rewarding arbitrary lifetime statistical milestones, but Frank hasn't hit any of the big ones either. While I tend to believe in the "Cobb Standard" mentioned above for HoF entry, I do hope that Belle's snubbing is because everyone remembers what a tool he is and this isn't a harbinger of Frank's Cooperstown experience. But then again, Frank wasn't exactly Mr. Rodgers either, and look what's happening to Andre Dawson.. :unsure:. I guess the answer is I want him to hit #500 in the Cell, no matter what uniform he's wearing.

Dan Mega
01-16-2006, 11:10 AM
Belle put up some great numbers but he was still an idiot.

32nd&Wallace
01-16-2006, 11:13 AM
Greenstein's point is that the "great numbers" were at a time when the Sox were out of contention, therefore Belle was just a stat filler. The 1997 had high expectations and Belle was a flop for most of that year. Ditto the first half of 1998.

Brian26
01-16-2006, 11:29 AM
Belle's 2nd half in 1998 may have been the biggest "garbage time" performance in the history of modern baseball.

miker
01-16-2006, 11:33 AM
If anything "good" came out of the Albert Belle-era, it might have been that Jerry Reinsdorf realized that signing a statistical monster, but fan-unfriendly superstar didn't automatically mean more wins or better attendance.

slavko
01-16-2006, 12:47 PM
My dimming memory says JR asked Big Frank after the strike whether he wanted the Sox to sign Belle or Bonds. Frank said Belle. That could have changed baseball history. Barry in Chicago, Balco in SF...fill in the blanks. (Although JR's company that he sold to Amex to get his fortune was named Balcor, but that's another story.)

SOXPHILE
01-16-2006, 12:57 PM
While it is hard to argue with ol' Teddy about Belle, I find it ironic and telling that this same newspaper company does everything it can to promote Santo and openly campaigns to get him in the HOF too. While not as bad as Belle, I also consider Santo a "lowlife". Not liked by teamates, constant bitching and moaning, and even trying to get into a fight with a then 70 something Leo Durocher. I agree with everything he says about Belle, but he may want to turn the same critical eye towards one of his own as well.

NonetheLoaiza
01-16-2006, 12:57 PM
My dimming memory says JR asked Big Frank after the strike whether he wanted the Sox to sign Belle or Bonds. Frank said Belle. That could have changed baseball history. Barry in Chicago, Balco in SF...fill in the blanks. (Although JR's company that he sold to Amex to get his fortune was named Balcor, but that's another story.)

Well, you would have to assume that Barry didn't want to stay in SF, which I believe he did want to do.

ewokpelts
01-16-2006, 03:13 PM
My dimming memory says JR asked Big Frank after the strike whether he wanted the Sox to sign Belle or Bonds. Frank said Belle. That could have changed baseball history. Barry in Chicago, Balco in SF...fill in the blanks. (Although JR's company that he sold to Amex to get his fortune was named Balcor, but that's another story.)it was BOJER.
Gene

Ol' No. 2
01-16-2006, 04:02 PM
Well if they do, it's surprising how similar Joey's stats look to everybody's other favorite Hall candidate, Big Frank, after you take into account that Frank has played 4 more seasons in the majors.

162 game averages:
Belle Thomas
HR: 40 37
RBI: 130 121
AVG: .295 .307
BB: 72 121
K: 101 96

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/belleal01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thomafr04.shtml

Now it's true that the Hall loves rewarding arbitrary lifetime statistical milestones, but Frank hasn't hit any of the big ones either. While I tend to believe in the "Cobb Standard" mentioned above for HoF entry, I do hope that Belle's snubbing is because everyone remembers what a tool he is and this isn't a harbinger of Frank's Cooperstown experience. But then again, Frank wasn't exactly Mr. Rodgers either, and look what's happening to Andre Dawson.. :unsure:. I guess the answer is I want him to hit #500 in the Cell, no matter what uniform he's wearing.I certainly hope that a charm school diploma never becomes a requirement for HOF admission. But personality issues aside, Albert Belle doesn't have the qualifications for HOF. How about these comparisons:

MVP: Thomas 2 (should have been 3); Belle 0
Batting titles: Thomas 1; Belle 0
Seasons with 20+HR, 100+RBI and 100+BB: Thomas 10; Belle 1

In the end, these kind of things carry more weight than career averages. If you look at the HOF standards numbers at baseball-reference.com, Thomas is well above the normal threshold. Belle is not. It's not even a close call.

Hangar18
01-16-2006, 04:31 PM
I certainly hope that a charm school diploma never becomes a requirement for HOF admission. But personality issues aside, Albert Belle doesn't have the qualifications for HOF. How about these comparisons:

MVP: Thomas 2 (should have been 3); Belle 0
Batting titles: Thomas 1; Belle 0
Seasons with 20+HR, 100+RBI and 100+BB: Thomas 10; Belle 1

In the end, these kind of things carry more weight than career averages. If you look at the HOF standards numbers at baseball-reference.com, Thomas is well above the normal threshold. Belle is not. It's not even a close call.

Good Post ............ and im glad that you duly noted Thomas' 2 MVP's with "Shouldve been 3", because your right, it shouldve been 3, and from now on going forward, im always going to use an Asterisk when the subject of Thomas' MVP comes up. In my eyes, he was the 2000 MVP.

Lip Man 1
01-16-2006, 05:39 PM
Slavko:

You are correct. In past interviews Reinsdorf has stated that he in fact said to Thomas, 'if you could have any player in baseball on the team who would it be?' Thomas immediately said 'Belle.' Reinsdorf says he then said, 'you know Bonds is available?' and Thomas again said 'Belle.'

Bonds was available because at that time the Giants were having no success trying to get a new stadium deal passed by the citizens of San Francisco and Bonds was making a lot of money. There were financial questions about the team's future.

Lip

slavko
01-16-2006, 06:05 PM
it was BOJER.
Gene

Thanks.

jackbrohamer
01-16-2006, 06:45 PM
I certainly hope that a charm school diploma never becomes a requirement for HOF admission. But personality issues aside, Albert Belle doesn't have the qualifications for HOF. How about these comparisons:

MVP: Thomas 2 (should have been 3); Belle 0
Batting titles: Thomas 1; Belle 0
Seasons with 20+HR, 100+RBI and 100+BB: Thomas 10; Belle 1


Agreed, though as an aside Belle's miserable personality probably cost him the 1995 MVP that Mo Vaughn won.

santo=dorf
01-16-2006, 07:29 PM
Good Post ............ and im glad that you duly noted Thomas' 2 MVP's with "Shouldve been 3", because your right, it shouldve been 3, and from now on going forward, im always going to use an Asterisk when the subject of Thomas' MVP comes up. In my eyes, he was the 2000 MVP.

Well Belle should've won an MVP as well. (Mo Vaughn)

slavko
01-16-2006, 08:44 PM
Thanks.
Gene:
JR is currently a partner in BOJER. The company he founded in 1973 and sold to Amex in 1982 for $100M+ was Balcor. So I'm not senile, despite what my wife says. (Google Balcor and Reinsdorf.)

Soxfanspcu11
01-16-2006, 10:05 PM
im always going to use an Asterisk when the subject of Thomas' MVP comes up. In my eyes, he was the 2000 MVP.


Your right! And everyone I know still looks at Roger Marris as the all-time homerun champion, it's a shame how is record was tainted.

And on that note, I'm not so sure that Belle's numbers make him HOF eligible, but he certainly should be in there before Rose, Bonds and McGwire.

PKalltheway
01-16-2006, 10:15 PM
I also consider Santo a "lowlife". Not liked by teamates, constant bitching and moaning, and even trying to get into a fight with a then 70 something Leo Durocher.

Wow! I never knew that about Ron Santo!:o: The media makes Santo out to be such a nice guy! I guess you learn something new everyday!

SouthSide_HitMen
01-16-2006, 10:29 PM
Wow! I never knew that about Ron Santo!:o: The media makes Santo out to be such a nice guy! I guess you learn something new everyday!

Ron Santo pulled a "Payton Manning" and ripped Don Young on the field after an error he committed during a July 1969 game. Cub fans booed Ron Santo the next game which caused him to apologize. The Cubs began their choke job shortly afterwards.

Ron Santo also ripped on fans toward the end of the season who were rightfully critical of the collapse of the 1969 team.

steff
01-17-2006, 07:04 AM
And UMSox, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that a vast, vast majority of the awful things that the media says about Albert Belle is true. If one reporter says something bad about a player it seems like it has a personal axe to grind. However in Albert Belle's case just about everybody seems to have the same opinion that he could be a pretty awful human being when he wanted to. And this is more than media guys. Teammates, coaches, fans, all of them seem to share this opinion and we have plenty of documented evidence of his behavior to back it up.


Care to share the evidence from Teammates & coaches..? I've never met one that didn't hold him, from knowing him, in high regard. As a fan, and friend, of his I don't share your above opinion one bit.

steff
01-17-2006, 07:08 AM
Some highlights of the article:
*Belle berates a Sox broadcaster for getting asprin in the training room
*Cursed out members of the media
*Told Schuler to **** off after he approached Belle about his attitude
*Domestic battery
*Could have cared less about throwing a bat in the stands, hitting a girl and bloodying her face (did this happen while he was with the Sox)
*Career numbers are misleading, especially with the Sox.
*Batgate



Schuler is a dick, and deserved a lot more then he got. Albert also was not the only player to tell Rob to **** off. A former loved 3rd baseman and him nearly went to blows several times.
A bull**** charge.
More bull****.. First he didn't throw the bat. It flew from his hands while swinging. Seecond, Albert went to the hospital after the game and paid the girls medical bills.

Realist
01-17-2006, 07:51 AM
A buddy of mine played outfield with Belle at LSU. He has nothing bad to say about "Joey". He said he was the hardest working guy he's ever met in his life and was pretty quiet and kept to himself.

jackbrohamer
01-17-2006, 10:19 AM
I don't understand why the Cubune even published this article in the first place. Belle only got 40 votes, and regardless of how you look at his stats he doesn't seem likely to ever get elected to the HOF.

Greenstein obviously has a personal grudge against Belle, and like a true wuss used the occasion of the HOF ballot to take some swipes at an ex-Sox player, in a forum where Belle can't defend himself. Isn't there some sports "news" the Cubune can spend its time on instead of this nonsense?

soxfan13
01-17-2006, 01:13 PM
Things I have read about Belle was that he was very quiet and dint make trouble with his fellow players

ondafarm
01-17-2006, 03:41 PM
You still read that Greenstein idiot?

Brian26
01-17-2006, 10:11 PM
A former loved 3rd baseman and him nearly went to blows several times.

Greg Norton? Snopek? Sabo???? :D:

Brian26
01-17-2006, 10:13 PM
Care to share the evidence from Teammates & coaches..? I've never met one that didn't hold him, from knowing him, in high regard. As a fan, and friend, of his I don't share your above opinion one bit.

I can't speak for teammates and coaches, but I know there are some Halloween trick-or-treaters in a suburb of Cleveland who are scared to death of the guy :D:

santo=dorf
01-18-2006, 12:15 AM
I can't speak for teammates and coaches, but I know there are some Halloween trick-or-treaters in a suburb of Cleveland who are scared to death of the guy :D:
....and that NBC reporter, Fernando Vina receiving a forearm while turning a double play, and the fan in outfield stands who had a ball thrown at him.

Banix12
01-18-2006, 01:23 AM
Care to share the evidence from Teammates & coaches..? I've never met one that didn't hold him, from knowing him, in high regard. As a fan, and friend, of his I don't share your above opinion one bit.

Well certainly Omar Vizquel throwing him under the bus in his book about only using corked bats doesn't speak well for their relationship. I know Ray Miller didn't much care for him in Baltimore because he wouldn't hustle, which was a complaint of many of his managers as I recall. And he did have his run ins with teammates, I remember a story from here in chicago where his teammates tried to turn up the heat in the clubhouse and belle destroyed the thermostat with a baseball bat.

What I always heard about him as a player was he could be an incredibly friendly person who gave to charity and donated his time but coming up to gametime and during games the players knew not to go anywhere near him. Probably speaking more to his intensity for the game but his mood could change from affable to mean in a heartbeat.

There were probably plenty of guys who liked him but I would suspect there were just as many guys who just tolerated him because he was such a fearsome hitter. Not every teammate is going to like you same is true in any work situation. Though hatred of him is probably too strong a word but I think it would be apt to describe Belle's relationship with his teammates and management as "turbulent".

Bud Black, a Cleveland Indians teammate, nicknamed Belle "Snapper." Others simply called him crazy. Belle could flare up at any time, even at friends, and often turned violent.

"Albert's snapped at me. He's gone off at other coaches," said Indians coach Dave Nelson in 1996. "You never know which Albert's going to show up."

My thing with Belle is just imagine how bad he would have been had he not quit drinking in the early 90's. He was bad enough as just a violent man with a short temper, throw in booze and that would have been a potentially lethal combo.

I never met him though, If you say he was a good man then I can only take your word for it. But frankly you reap what you sow and it's not like Belle ever sowed much goodwill around the league.

steff
01-18-2006, 04:59 AM
3 incidents while spending 7 months a year with his teammates...?

He did cork his bat... how Viaquel commenting on it makes that throwing him under a bus I don't get.

As for his former managers... I know he still speaks with several of them.

He is also very good friends with current Sox players and spends a good deal of time with them in the offseason.

Everyone has a story to tell (me included). And when you have a person like Albert that laughs at the negative comments about himself rather then correct them, you never get the correct story. Could he have been a bit more tactful in his intensity... absoultely. Does it make him what he's been called in this thread...? I don't think so, which is why I commented. If his goodwill towards others was known he'd have to live a different life. He likes his business private. His right.

Fenway
01-18-2006, 09:02 AM
Bob Ryan saw Teddy's column in the Tribune and weighs in today

BOB RYAN: This guy sure played a mean game of baseball (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2006/01/18/this_guy_sure_played_a_mean_game_of_baseball)


Belle never did anything to me personally. But I can tell you that in my 38 years here, I have never observed a more negative aura cast on a locker room or clubhouse than the one created by Belle when he played for the Indians from 1991 (his first full year) through 1996. That should have been a happy workspace. The Indians were very good and their manager, Mike Hargrove, was a 100 percent people person. But the room was always tense because no one knew when Belle might erupt.

There is little doubt he would have won the MVP over Mo Vaughn in 1995 -- when Belle became the first man to hit 50 homers and 50 doubles in the same season -- if he weren't so universally loathed.

jackbrohamer
01-18-2006, 10:11 AM
Belle's 50 HR and 50 double season in 1995 is even more amazing because he did it in only 143 games. I am sure he would have broken Maris' record if not for the strike

steff
01-18-2006, 12:21 PM
Bob Ryan saw Teddy's column in the Tribune and weighs in today

BOB RYAN: This guy sure played a mean game of baseball (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2006/01/18/this_guy_sure_played_a_mean_game_of_baseball)


Pure comedy...

He didn't do anything to me but let me just stick my $0.02 in here.. :rolleyes:

Albert just wanted to be left alone. And had he been, and just left to do his job - all he wanted to do - then these morons wouldn't have anything to write about. Stir the pot.. get a baseball beamed at you.. then cry about it. Boo hoo. :whiner:

Fenway
01-18-2006, 12:24 PM
Pure comedy...

He didn't do anything to me but let me just stick my $0.02 in here.. :rolleyes:



Ryan never sticks his nose in :D:

http://graphics.boston.com/images/daily/06/bob_ryan.jpg

Banix12
01-18-2006, 01:57 PM
3 incidents while spending 7 months a year with his teammates...?

He did cork his bat... how Viaquel commenting on it makes that throwing him under a bus I don't get.

As for his former managers... I know he still speaks with several of them.

He is also very good friends with current Sox players and spends a good deal of time with them in the offseason.

Everyone has a story to tell (me included). And when you have a person like Albert that laughs at the negative comments about himself rather then correct them, you never get the correct story. Could he have been a bit more tactful in his intensity... absoultely. Does it make him what he's been called in this thread...? I don't think so, which is why I commented. If his goodwill towards others was known he'd have to live a different life. He likes his business private. His right.

I'm not going to bother researching every last incident, he certainly had more than just the one incident of tearing apart a locker room with a bat. And even though he still talks to some people it's not like everybody liked him. He made friends over the years and he talks to them but I'm sure there were guys who had a hard time working with him.

And I really have no problem with keeping your business private, players certainly have a right to privacy and the media these days is too invasive. However when you are a player like Belle who had so many very public blowups and and incidents like clobbering Vina, giving the finger to fans, chasing some teens in his car, cursing out Hannah Storm he must have known that it would become increasingly difficult to maintain his privacy. Public incidents to the media is like throwing chum to sharks. It may not be fair but that's the way it is.

You seem to have the advantage of knowing him and I don't. I can take your word that he is misrepresented and I can believe that. However he never really did anything in his playing career to represent himself in any other light. He seemed unwilling to try and show people that he wasn't the surly figure he was made out to be. Whether it is fair or not, he has earned his reputation. He seems to be able to live with it so that is fine.

IowaSox1971
01-18-2006, 05:37 PM
The fact is, Belle's relatively short career and the fact his numbers were achieved in the steroid era make him a fringe candidate for the Hall of Fame at best. He did not win any MVP awards. He did not win any World Series titles. His behavior was questionable, to say the least. So why should he be given the benefit of the doubt?

Every player knows that the media vote for MVP and Hall of Fame honors. If a player won't take the time to answer a few questions from reporters now and then, that's fine. If he wants to be hostile toward the media, that's his choice. But then that player should not expect these people to go the extra mile to put him into the Hall of Fame if he's not indisputably deserving of it.

ondafarm
01-18-2006, 05:42 PM
I'm waiting for the Albert Belle rips Teddy Greenstein article which I expect to be better than the garbage that the Cubune's baseball writer seems to think is professional writing.

steff
01-18-2006, 06:05 PM
The fact is, Belle's relatively short career and the fact his numbers were achieved in the steroid era make him a fringe candidate for the Hall of Fame at best. He did not win any MVP awards. He did not win any World Series titles. His behavior was questionable, to say the least. So why should he be given the benefit of the doubt?

Every player knows that the media vote for MVP and Hall of Fame honors. If a player won't take the time to answer a few questions from reporters now and then, that's fine. If he wants to be hostile toward the media, that's his choice. But then that player should not expect these people to go the extra mile to put him into the Hall of Fame if he's not indisputably deserving of it.


And where is Albert stating he should be in the hall..? Has be been complaining? Campaigning for a spot? Saying he is deserving?

Nope.

Some members of the media thought him worthy and gave him some votes. Teddy should take it up with them if he has an issue.

And Banix, you are correct on several of your comments, and a bit misguided on several alligations but that's to be expected when you have to rely on the media that hates him in gathering info about him, but that's exactly my point. If all the good Albert did was reported... he'd never have a peaceful moment alone with his family again. He likes it the way it is. He made it that way. And he lives it that way.

By the way... it was just once that he busted a thermostat.

steff
01-18-2006, 06:08 PM
My thing with Belle is just imagine how bad he would have been had he not quit drinking in the early 90's. He was bad enough as just a violent man with a short temper, throw in booze and that would have been a potentially lethal combo.



And I do want to comment on this... Albert is a very mellow, almost jolly, drinker these days. I do think it's a bit irresponsible, borderline slanderous, to make the alligation above. Just another example of taking the word of those who have a forum and report incorrectly.

dickallen15
01-18-2006, 06:18 PM
The problem I have with the article is Belle hasn't played for the White Sox in 7 years, and hasn't played at all in 5. If Greenstein didn't think he belongs in the HOF, that's fine, neither do I (not because of alledged off field behavior), but why bash him now. All the HOF votes had been placed. His article served no purpose. It makes me think a lot less of him as a writer. If Greenstein had any balls he would have bashed him for the alledged incidents in 1998, when Belle was around to defend himself. Maybe Teddy was too afraid.

Brian26
01-18-2006, 07:14 PM
He is also very good friends with current Sox players and spends a good deal of time with them in the offseason.

Steff- I don't mean to pry, but you seem somewhat open about talking about this. I'm curious who Albert Belle would hang out with on the current Sox team. As fans, the '97-'98 season doesn't seem that long ago, but the Sox roster has completely turned around at least twice since he left. Belle is almost three generations removed from the team as far as rosters go. I know he played with Frank, but Frank is gone. Konerko didn't get here to '99, Belle left in '98. The pitching staff is young. I can't imagine Belle and Thome are good friends, but maybe I'm wrong. Just curious.

steff
01-18-2006, 08:33 PM
Steff- I don't mean to pry, but you seem somewhat open about talking about this. I'm curious who Albert Belle would hang out with on the current Sox team. As fans, the '97-'98 season doesn't seem that long ago, but the Sox roster has completely turned around at least twice since he left. Belle is almost three generations removed from the team as far as rosters go. I know he played with Frank, but Frank is gone. Konerko didn't get here to '99, Belle left in '98. The pitching staff is young. I can't imagine Belle and Thome are good friends, but maybe I'm wrong. Just curious.

He's formed some tight relationships from going to ST and from living in Scottsdale. And, thought it's been quiet, he's been back to Comiskey several times in the past couple years. Bears games also.

Banix12
01-19-2006, 12:33 AM
And I do want to comment on this... Albert is a very mellow, almost jolly, drinker these days. I do think it's a bit irresponsible, borderline slanderous, to make the alligation above. Just another example of taking the word of those who have a forum and report incorrectly.

Unfortunately his going to rehab for excessive drinking is a matter of the public record. Maybe the phrase "got his drinking under control" would be more apt? I don't know and honestly I don't care. I've already spent too much time today discussing Belle.

I really don't want to get into a whole thing. You seem to know him, I don't. You say there are flaws in the public record, I think that is true but unfortunately the source has shown no interest in correcting the record. I'm perfectly content on letting the memory of Belle fade into history. Which seems to be what he would want anyway so he can keep his privacy. Greenstein should not have written the article and should just get over it.

steff
01-19-2006, 05:00 AM
Unfortunately his going to rehab for excessive drinking is a matter of the public record. Maybe the phrase "got his drinking under control" would be more apt? I don't know and honestly I don't care. I've already spent too much time today discussing Belle.

I really don't want to get into a whole thing. You seem to know him, I don't. You say there are flaws in the public record, I think that is true but unfortunately the source has shown no interest in correcting the record. I'm perfectly content on letting the memory of Belle fade into history. Which seems to be what he would want anyway so he can keep his privacy. Greenstein should not have written the article and should just get over it.


I didn't say his over drinking 10 years ago wasn't a matter of public record... your ASSumption that he would have become a violent one however, is defaming, IMO.

Banix12
01-20-2006, 12:58 AM
I didn't say his over drinking 10 years ago wasn't a matter of public record... your ASSumption that he would have become a violent one however, is defaming, IMO.

Let's see, according to the public record, albert belle was originally sent to rehab after he was suspended for destroying a bathroom. Violent Behavior?

And as has been detailed in some of the incidents described in this thread, he appeared to have trouble controlling his violent behavior and temper during times when he reportedly didn't have a drinking problem. So why would it be a stretch to assume that if he had continued on his alcohol dependancy he had as a young player that his violent behavior would not have been worse with the lowered inhibitions caused by alcohol?

Again, he has image issues. It's nice of you to stand up for him and I can accept what you say that he is actually a good person who is misunderstood. I can start to think differently of him because of what you say. But if he really wants people to stop saying the things like I have said or the things that 99% of baseball fans believe about him, he should address it. If he is misunderstood it is because he has shown absolutely no interest in letting people understand him.

And before you berate me for anything I said there please look at this from my perspective. I don't know him, this is all the information I had to go on when I wrote that. The only information most people have to go on. And this was a discussion thread on him. If you didn't have the pleasure of actually knowing him don't you think your view of him would be less positive?

steff
01-20-2006, 04:56 AM
And before you berate me for anything I said there please look at this from my perspective. I don't know him, this is all the information I had to go on when I wrote that. The only information most people have to go on. And this was a discussion thread on him. If you didn't have the pleasure of actually knowing him don't you think your view of him would be less positive?


Nope. If I didn't know him I wouldn't say anything. I'm not in the habit of talking **** about folks I don't know.

Banix12
01-20-2006, 03:31 PM
Nope. If I didn't know him I wouldn't say anything. I'm not in the habit of talking **** about folks I don't know.

And yet you have made backhanded swipes at my character without ever really talking to me outside of this thread. And you have talked about the media in a manner as if every single one of them were complete morons and deserved the shabby treatment they received. Reporters are people too, well maybe not Mariotti. He is a demon hellspawn. I don't personally know if you know Ron Schuler but you called him a dick, so if there was some personal experience you had explaining why that is true that would be nice to hear.

The question above had nothing to do about talking ****. I'm talking about if you didn't actually know him don't you think your own personal viewpoint on the man, which you are not inclined to share with anybody and can keep to yourself, would be signifigantly less positive? The question had to do with image. Even if I disavowed every media report on him, what am I seriously supposed to think about him based upon things like giving fans the finger, coldcocking Fernando Vina, or cheating by corking his bat.

For the record, I don't really have any animosity or dislike toward Albert Belle. Until this discussion thread came up I haven't even thought about him since he left the sox. But this was initially a discussion thread on his image and his candidacy for the hall of fame, so I think his reputation, however deserved it is, is fair game.

You describe him as a much nicer man and I can kind of rethink some of my previous thoughts based on your opinion but I must say that if he is as good a man as you describe then I believe he has done himself a great disservice by not finding ways to display this side of him more to the general public.