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hold2dibber
01-13-2006, 01:26 PM
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I thought this was interesting and good info for Sox fans to know. I got in an argument recently with a Cubs fan who insisted that Sosa was a 1st ballot hall of famer, whereas Frank was a marginal candidate who probably would get in eventually. So I dug in a little, and here's what I found. They've played in approximately the same number of games (1959 for Frank, 2240 for Shammie) and here are their seasonal (i.e., 162 game) averages over the the course of their respective careers:

Sosa: 103 Rs, 167 Hs, 26 2Bs, 43 HRs, 114 RBIs, 65 BBs, 195 Ks, .274 avg., .345 OBP, .882 OPS

Frank: 110 Rs, 177 Hs, 37 2Bs, 37 HRs, 121 RBIs, 121 BBs, 96 Ks, .307 avg., .427 OBP, .995 OPS

I'm not saying the voters won't screw it up, but if Sosa is a 1st ballot hall-of-famer and Frank is not, the voters are idiots.

RedHeadPaleHoser
01-13-2006, 02:08 PM
IMO, three words settle this "discussion"....

Senate Steroid Hearings.

Who spoke, was honest, was NEVER under suspicion, has been a consistent hitter for his ENTIRE career, and had no "forgetfulness" of speaking the same language he's spoken for years? 'Nuff said.

Ol' No. 2
01-13-2006, 02:15 PM
We'll get a better read on this next year when McGwire is eligible for the HOF. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm betting most BBWAA voters don't have the stones to hold him accountable and not vote for him. My feeling is the HOF is about the past, and if he doesn't want to talk about the past, that's fine with me.

Chicken Dinner
01-13-2006, 02:21 PM
IMO, three words settle this "discussion"....

Senate Steroid Hearings.

Who spoke, was honest, was NEVER under suspicion, has been a consistent hitter for his ENTIRE career, and had no "forgetfulness" of speaking the same language he's spoken for years? 'Nuff said.

Don't forget the cork!!

soxinem1
01-13-2006, 02:23 PM
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I thought this was interesting and good info for Sox fans to know. I got in an argument recently with a Cubs fan who insisted that Sosa was a 1st ballot hall of famer, whereas Frank was a marginal candidate who probably would get in eventually. So I dug in a little, and here's what I found. They've played in approximately the same number of games (1959 for Frank, 2240 for Shammie) and here are their seasonal (i.e., 162 game) averages over the the course of their respective careers:

Sosa: 103 Rs, 167 Hs, 26 2Bs, 43 HRs, 114 RBIs, 65 BBs, 195 Ks, .274 avg., .345 OBP, .882 OPS

Frank: 110 Rs, 177 Hs, 37 2Bs, 37 HRs, 121 RBIs, 121 BBs, 96 Ks, .307 avg., .427 OBP, .995 OPS

I'm not saying the voters won't screw it up, but if Sosa is a 1st ballot hall-of-famer and Frank is not, the voters are idiots.

No doubt Frank is a better hitter, but Sammy did not average 195K's.

Additionally, Sosa's numbers inflated a few years in the 1998-2002 timeframe when Frank was hurtin and Sammy was not. Strange thing is, Sosa and McGwire have never been 'outed' in a positive test like Palmeiro was, so suspicion of usage is not a real good angle to play here with the voters for HOF induction.

But you are right, Big Hurt should be first time with ease. I don't give it Sammy at all, if it's me. There's more to BB than home runs. Frank is one of the best hitters the game has seen, Sammy wishes he was.

The McGwire vote will be one of the most closely watched in history. In about 9-10 months it will be overshadowing the playoffs, unfortunately.

RedHeadPaleHoser
01-13-2006, 02:28 PM
Don't forget the cork!!

I stand corrected. But, since he didn't know the bat was corked, how can we blame him??

Kilroy
01-13-2006, 02:29 PM
We'll get a better read on this next year when McGwire is eligible for the HOF.

Is it just me or does anyone else not really think 'Hall of Fame' when they think Mark McGwire?? And I'm not even thinking of tainted numbers. He just doesn't have that Hall of Fame air about him that Big Hurt, Greg Maddux, or (as much as I hate to say it) even Scammy seems to have.

Irishsoxfan
01-13-2006, 02:41 PM
No doubt Frank is a better hitter, but Sammy did not average 195K's.


Closer to 159 Ks but still way above Frank's.

Taliesinrk
01-13-2006, 02:43 PM
I have a problem reading the title of this thread. There should be no "vs." anywhere near it. It is no contest and to compare the 2; IMHO is a bunch of bull. Frank Thomas is a true baseball player; a once in a generation type hitter. Sammy Sosa is a fake: he's a fluke. A cheater who burned bright for a couple years, and then faded into oblivion.

dlee120
01-13-2006, 02:43 PM
:corker

Sox35th
01-13-2006, 02:45 PM
Sammy = Two Words (Steroid & Cork)

Also, lets not forget this bad "D" in the outfield!!

:scrubs

Madvora
01-13-2006, 02:58 PM
Is it just me or does anyone else not really think 'Hall of Fame' when they think Mark McGwire??
If he does or does not get in, it's still going to be a madhouse. Can you imagine the crowd reaction to his speech if he does make it in? I don't know if he'd even want to show up for that.

soxfan43
01-13-2006, 02:59 PM
While its quite obvious to all that Mac and scammy used the roids, the fact of the matter is that there was no rules against it in baseball. yes its unethical, unfair and all that but they still put up the numbers without breaking the rules. Personally, I don't agree with the steroid use but since I think you still have to let Mac in. he put up the numbers in an era where plenty of other players using the roids did not. scammy on the other hand did break a rule, cork. maybe he'll get in at some point, but no way should sosa be a first ballott hall of famer.

Mickster
01-13-2006, 03:24 PM
While its quite obvious to all that Mac and scammy used the roids, the fact of the matter is that there was no rules against it in baseball.

I absolutely hate this argument. It was against the law - forget about baseball rules!

Since there is no baseball rule against murder, is it OK to kill someone during a game?

:rolleyes:

Ol' No. 2
01-13-2006, 03:27 PM
I absolutely hate this argument. It was against the law - forget about baseball rules!

Since there is no baseball rule against murder, is it OK to kill someone during a game?

:rolleyes:Not to mention that if they all thought it was OK, why are they going to such lengths to hide their use?

TomBradley72
01-13-2006, 03:56 PM
Strange thing is, Sosa and McGwire have never been 'outed' in a positive test like Palmeiro was, so suspicion of usage is not a real good angle to play here with the voters for HOF induction.

McGwire's pathetic testimony before congress "outed" him as much as any laboratory test ever could. So did Sammy's performance and physical appearance along with the cork incident. Neither is a HoF in my book...not even close. The fact they were considered such a "phenomena" and did it while cheating while Frank delivered similar results 100% clean makes Frank's overall career look better and better.

soxinem1
01-14-2006, 04:02 PM
McGwire's pathetic testimony before congress "outed" him as much as any laboratory test ever could. So did Sammy's performance and physical appearance along with the cork incident. Neither is a HoF in my book...not even close. The fact they were considered such a "phenomena" and did it while cheating while Frank delivered similar results 100% clean makes Frank's overall career look better and better.

I agree with your statement, but I could see a lot of pressure applied to the HOF voters when these two come up. As I stated before, McGwire's entry on the ballot this year may overshadow the playoffs.

Me personally, I don't think he belongs, roids or not. I don't think the overall numbers are there.

J Co
01-15-2006, 02:11 AM
I just got home from sitting in a bar with 3 Cubs fans. Oddly enough, one of the things we talked about was who among current players are 'sure fire' HOFers (it started with one of them whining that Sandberg didn't get in on the first ballot). Even though they're Cubs fans, all three thought Frank is a first or second ballot Hall-of-Famer.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-15-2006, 03:53 AM
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I thought this was interesting and good info for Sox fans to know. I got in an argument recently with a Cubs fan who insisted that Sosa was a 1st ballot hall of famer, whereas Frank was a marginal candidate who probably would get in eventually. So I dug in a little, and here's what I found. They've played in approximately the same number of games (1959 for Frank, 2240 for Shammie) and here are their seasonal (i.e., 162 game) averages over the the course of their respective careers:

Sosa: 103 Rs, 167 Hs, 26 2Bs, 43 HRs, 114 RBIs, 65 BBs, 159 Ks (corrected), .274 avg., .345 OBP, .882 OPS

Frank: 110 Rs, 177 Hs, 37 2Bs, 37 HRs, 121 RBIs, 121 BBs, 96 Ks, .307 avg., .427 OBP, .995 OPS

I'm not saying the voters won't screw it up, but if Sosa is a 1st ballot hall-of-famer and Frank is not, the voters are idiots.

There is no reason to even bring the steroid argument into it. Frank was a far superior hitter. (I don't think as much of runs and RBIs which are both lineup dependent - your position in the lineup and the hitters around you). Frank dominates Sosa in BA, OBP and SLG. They both were below average fielders. Sosa's stolen bases are his only advantage and he needed a few hundred more to make a difference (averaged about 15 / season).

Frank should and will be inducted first ballot. Sammy makes it after several years on the ballot and much controversy.

Frank Thomas was one of the ten best first basemen ever.

Sosa is not a top ten right fielder.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-15-2006, 03:55 AM
I absolutely hate this argument. It was against the law - forget about baseball rules!

Since there is no baseball rule against murder, is it OK to kill someone during a game?

:rolleyes:

http://www.nndb.com/people/478/000023409/ty-cobb-1.jpg

I never killed anyone - during a game.

kevin57
01-15-2006, 09:46 AM
I'm surprised this Cub fan was arguing so vehemently for Sosa's induction in the HOF. It's my impression that after being deified, Sosa crashed and burned in the sight of Cub fans.

Or is this typical schizophrenic Cub fan behavior? :tongue:

voodoochile
01-15-2006, 10:36 AM
Don't forget the cork!!

There it is. We have evidence that ShamME* cheated. Of course that didn't stop them from electing Gaylord Perry...

voodoochile
01-15-2006, 10:38 AM
I'm surprised this Cub fan was arguing so vehemently for Sosa's induction in the HOF. It's my impression that after being deified, Sosa crashed and burned in the sight of Cub fans.

Or is this typical schizophrenic Cub fan behavior? :tongue:

No, just human nature. He can't be that bad, they cheered for him. Otherwise they have to admit they cheered for a bum...

SouthSide_HitMen
01-15-2006, 11:33 AM
There it is. We have evidence that ShamME* cheated. Of course that didn't stop them from electing Gaylord Perry...

Don't forget:

Whitey Ford (pitcher, Yankees, 1950-67)
Ford used his wedding ring to cut the ball, or had catcher Elston Howard put a nice slice in it with a buckle on his shin guard. Ford also planted mud pies around the mound and used them to load the ball. He confessed that when pitching against the Dodgers in the 1963 World Series, "I used enough mud to build a dam." He also threw a "gunk ball," which combined a mixture of baby oil, turpentine, and resin. He kept the "gunk" in a roll-on dispenser, which, the story goes, Yogi Berra once mistook for deodorant, gluing his arms to his sides in the process.

Don Sutton (pitcher, Dodgers, Astros, Brewers, Angels, A's, 1966-88)
Late in his career, Sutton was often accused of scuffing. In 1978 he was ejected and suspended 10 days for defacing the ball, but when he threatened to sue the National League, he was let off. Was teammates with Gaylord Perry for a while. "He gave me a tube of Vaseline," joked Sutton. "I thanked him and gave him a piece of sandpaper." Umpires took the allegations seriously, and sometimes gave him a good going over. Once, he left a note inside his glove for the men in black. It said, "You're getting warm, but it's not here."

http://world.std.com/~pgw/Deadball/spitball.html

Spitball Hall of Famers "Grandfathered in" so technically they were not cheating though steroids were not "banned" in the Majors until the past few years:

Red Faber, Stan Coveleski & Burleigh Grimes.

itsnotrequired
01-15-2006, 12:03 PM
I agree with your statement, but I could see a lot of pressure applied to the HOF voters when these two come up. As I stated before, McGwire's entry on the ballot this year may overshadow the playoffs.

Me personally, I don't think he belongs, roids or not. I don't think the overall numbers are there.
Unfortunately, both Sosa and McGwire have reached the milestone of 500+ HRs. EVERY player with over 500 HRs has made it into the Hall, except actives (Bonds, Griffey, etc.) and those not yet eligible (McGwire). I'm not saying they are a lock strictly because of the HR totals but it would be unprecedented to not let them in.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-15-2006, 12:35 PM
Unfortunately, both Sosa and McGwire have reached the milestone of 500+ HRs. EVERY player with over 500 HRs has made it into the Hall, except actives (Bonds, Griffey, etc.) and those not yet eligible (McGwire). I'm not saying they are a lock strictly because of the HR totals but it would be unprecedented to not let them in.

400 HRs used to be the "milestone" for players to be included into the Hall of Fame. Dave Kingman was the first to retire with over 400 HRs (442 - 31st all time) and not be elected into the hall.

I think the 500 HR will be like the 400 HR "milestone" and it will be disregarded for players who were not complete ballplayers like Kingman - i.e. Home Runs was the only number "Hall of Fame" worthy.

McGwire at least had a .393 OBP to go along with a solid SLG mark .588 (setting aside the steroid issue). His numbers are comparable to Bonds.

Sosa has a .345 OBP and .537 SLG mark - comparable to Palmeiro and McGriff.

Of the 20 players who have exceeded 500 Home Runs:

In - Bonds, Griffey Jr., McGwire

Possible - Sosa, Palmeiro

Active players with a shot at 500 HRs (397 - 449 - next closest is Delgado @ 369):

In - A Rodriguez, Thomas, Piazza, Bagwell

Possible:

Manny Ramirez, Gary Sheffield, Jim Thome

voodoochile
01-15-2006, 02:45 PM
Unfortunately, both Sosa and McGwire have reached the milestone of 500+ HRs. EVERY player with over 500 HRs has made it into the Hall, except actives (Bonds, Griffey, etc.) and those not yet eligible (McGwire). I'm not saying they are a lock strictly because of the HR totals but it would be unprecedented to not let them in.

Yep and at one point Dave Kingman was the only player with 400 HR not in the hall. Times have changed and eventually someone becomes the first...

Layla
01-16-2006, 10:41 AM
To throw another thought out there.

Does anyone think that that writers will take into consideration that the HR race between McGwire and Sosa brought back alot of interest in baseball?

voodoochile
01-16-2006, 11:29 AM
To throw another thought out there.

Does anyone think that that writers will take into consideration that the HR race between McGwire and Sosa brought back alot of interest in baseball?

No more than anything else. It got them in the media's spotlight. It made for an easy summer of coverage. In the end it's part of the steroid inneuendo - especially for Mac...

Tragg
01-16-2006, 11:33 AM
To throw another thought out there.

Does anyone think that that writers will take into consideration that the HR race between McGwire and Sosa brought back alot of interest in baseball?

Sosa's obvious preoccupation with the HR race over his own team's pennant race (HI fiving McGwire after he homers against the Cubs), is something I would take into consideration.

TheOldRoman
01-16-2006, 11:59 AM
I'm not saying the voters won't screw it up, but if Sosa is a 1st ballot hall-of-famer and Frank is not, the voters are idiots.
The voters will screw it up, and yes, they are idiots.
Shammy will likely go on the first ballot. He received too much love from the media (the clowns who someone get a say in the process) to not go in the first time. Frank was crapped on his whole career. He will not be a first ballot HOFer, even though he deserves to be as much as anyone else. I hope that Frank makes it, but at this point Im not even sure. If he does make it, it certainly wouldn't be for several years.

This says it all: When you allow the Jay Mariottis of the world to decide on the hall of fame, it is a farse.

miker
01-16-2006, 12:38 PM
There it is. We have evidence that ShamME* cheated. Of course that didn't stop them from electing Gaylord Perry...
Yeah, but Gaylord was a lot more likable than Sosa...

Bobbo35
01-16-2006, 04:40 PM
Don't forget the cork!!

Definately!!!

Bobbo35
01-16-2006, 04:43 PM
I absolutely hate this argument. It was against the law - forget about baseball rules!

Since there is no baseball rule against murder, is it OK to kill someone during a game?

:rolleyes:


Ya, the fact is that all these smucks are trying to save face and are lying to the public, they all should be banned from the hall of fame. There was more than one ralphy P at the hearing. Lying SOB!

gaelhound
01-16-2006, 10:19 PM
The voters will screw it up, and yes, they are idiots.
Shammy will likely go on the first ballot. He received too much love from the media (the clowns who someone get a say in the process) to not go in the first time. Frank was crapped on his whole career. He will not be a first ballot HOFer, even though he deserves to be as much as anyone else. I hope that Frank makes it, but at this point Im not even sure. If he does make it, it certainly wouldn't be for several years.

This says it all: When you allow the Jay Mariottis of the world to decide on the hall of fame, it is a farse.It is hard to spell "farce" correctly when you mention that ass in the same sentence.