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View Full Version : White Sox Taking Different Approach w/ Crede & Boras


WhiteSoxFan84
01-11-2006, 02:58 AM
In an effort to sign their lone arbitration-eligible player and massage their acrimonious relationship with agent Scott Boras, the White Sox are letting special assistant Dennis Gilbert handle negotiations with third baseman Joe Crede on a one-year contract.


Linky (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060110sox,1,3788717.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)

chisox77
01-11-2006, 06:56 AM
That's another encouraging sign. The methods of certain high profile agents can be an obstacle, but it's always better to attempt to deal with them, because if you don't, you limit possibilities to attain or retain ballplayers. Whether the White Sox plan on keeping him or not (for the long haul), it still would be best to sign Crede for the sake of value (and of course, his defensive play - maybe he'll start to hit about .270 or .280 as well).

:cool:

kevin57
01-11-2006, 07:26 AM
I believe in living in hope, so I will hope for non-acrimonious dealings with Bora$. Only time will tell.

DaleJRFan
01-11-2006, 09:08 AM
Why the hell can't Crede fire his agent and hire a new one? Is Boras really that good?

EastCoastSoxFan
01-11-2006, 09:12 AM
Why the hell can't Crede fire his agent and hire a new one? Is Boras really that good?
Boras is very good at getting jackass GMs to overpay for his clients...

itsnotrequired
01-11-2006, 09:13 AM
Why the hell can't Crede fire his agent and hire a new one? Is Boras really that good?

:payrod

Ol' No. 2
01-11-2006, 09:19 AM
I don't understand why everyone gets so worked up over Scott Boras and Joe Crede. What are you expecting, that he's going to hold out for 7 yrs and $150M?:?:

Flight #24
01-11-2006, 09:21 AM
I don't understand why everyone gets so worked up over Scott Boras and Joe Crede. What are you expecting, that he's going to hold out for 7 yrs and $150M?:?:

I hope he does. It'll make it quite certain that the Sox get their salary proposal accepted in arbitration.

Dan Mega
01-11-2006, 09:23 AM
I don't understand why everyone gets so worked up over Scott Boras and Joe Crede. What are you expecting, that he's going to hold out for 7 yrs and $150M?:?:

My sentiments exactly. Let other GM's grossly overpay for players. It ain't gonna happen here.

Paulwny
01-11-2006, 09:40 AM
With Boras' staff and the paper work generated from their numbers crunching, Crede will look like the 2nd coming of Brooks Robinson.

HomeFish
01-11-2006, 09:53 AM
With Boras' staff and the paper work generated from their numbers crunching, Crede will look like the 2nd coming of Brooks Robinson.

Boras doesn't need his staff for that -- he can just copy/paste from most WSI users.

TheOldRoman
01-11-2006, 09:56 AM
Boras doesn't need his staff for that -- he can just copy/paste from most WSI users.
:rolleyes:
OK, ShootaFish. Why don't you make up a chart showing us how Crede will be batting .117 by 2008.

HomeFish
01-11-2006, 10:04 AM
:rolleyes:
OK, ShootaFish. Why don't you make up a chart showing us how Crede will be batting .117 by 2008.

Nah, he'll be hitting his usual .220 - .250. He's at least fairly consistent in his offensive mediocrity.

Crede is a fine defender and turns into a much better offensive threat during the 9th inning, but he's not somebody you give a big-money contract to.

Hangar18
01-11-2006, 10:49 AM
Boras doesn't need his staff for that -- he can just copy/paste from most WSI users.

:roflmao: good one ...heh heh

caulfield12
01-11-2006, 10:56 AM
Linky (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060110sox,1,3788717.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)

I will believe there is progress when they actually avoid arbitration. It really doesnt make much sense at this point for Boras to bicker over $200-300,000, because his agent fee would be so negligible anyways. What does suck about this process is the fact that the player is usually so insulted by the counter-argument against his amount that it ends up ruining the relationship with the club, sometimes irreparably. This is one of the things I always worried about with Garland. Other times, it is a needed kick in the butt for a player to not hear only good things about him and serves as motivation. Just depends on the player. And at least we have Mackowiak, Ozuna and eventually Josh Fields as back-up, or the possibility of trading Crede as part of a package with Contreras or another pitcher and getting a Blalock or similar player in return.

DenverSock
01-11-2006, 11:00 AM
Boras doesn't need his staff for that -- he can just copy/paste from most WSI users.
That should be in some other color, cause that was funny!

:rolling::roflmao:

I don't understand why everyone gets so worked up over Scott Boras and Joe Crede. What are you expecting, that he's going to hold out for 7 yrs and $150M?:?:
So was that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleJRFan
Why the hell can't Crede fire his agent and hire a new one? Is Boras really that good?

Boras is very good at getting jackass GMs to overpay for his clients...
Isn't that what good agents do?

At least this way of negotiating shows some chance of moderating Boras' success, which is something that good GMs do. Seems to me KW knows what he's doing.

caulfield12
01-11-2006, 11:07 AM
That should be in some other color, cause that was funny!

:rolling::roflmao:


So was that.

Isn't that what good agents do?

At least this way of negotiating shows some chance of moderating Boras' success, which is something that good GMs do. Seems to me KW knows what he's doing.

Not only that, but if you look at Seay, Hill and Weaver, we might have been better off not signing them anyway...you can make an argument about Weaver, he is still a jerk and another version of AJ Burnett.

Was Boras also the agent for AJ Hinch, the Stanford catcher we did not sign who turned out to be another bust at the big league level?

DaleJRFan
01-11-2006, 11:07 AM
I'm just wondering, if Crede wants to stay here, likes playing here, likes the city and his teammates, respects the organization... wouldn't he take note of KW's outward hatred for Boras' business practice, and SWITCH agents??

ChiSoxLifer
01-11-2006, 11:18 AM
I don't think the negotiations will take too long. Boras made more in agent fees negotiating Millwood's contract than Crede potentially could make in arbitration. Boras must have naked pictures of Rangers owner Tom Hicks. He somehow gets Hicks to bid against himself.

mike squires
01-11-2006, 11:18 AM
I should know this, but how come Boras doesn't like dealing with the Sox? Does he dislike Williams/Reinsdorff??? Did they say something about him? Or is it us that dislikes working with him?

Flight #24
01-11-2006, 11:23 AM
I should know this, but how come Boras doesn't like dealing with the Sox? Does he dislike Williams/Reinsdorff??? Did they say something about him? Or is it us that dislikes working with him?

I'ts actually, IMO been way overblown. Boras has no issue with the Sox other than that they don't play his games & overpay. JR has said he has no problem working with Boras, you just assume that he's lying and do your own research.

What has fueled the "Sox don't deal with Boras" cries is the fact that they generally won't pay the ridiculous sums of money that he cons other teams into. This is most likely because of how they handle negotiations with him (i.e. do their own research/don't believe him/hold to their price). But there are no actual statements that they won't/don't deal with Scott, only that they think he overprices his clients.

It's likely that they're using Gilbert because he's a former agent and can call Scott on the BS more easily ala "C'mon Scott, I know that trick - I was on that side not too long ago, remember?".

The Dude
01-11-2006, 11:56 AM
I'm just wondering, if Crede wants to stay here, likes playing here, likes the city and his teammates, respects the organization... wouldn't he take note of KW's outward hatred for Boras' business practice, and SWITCH agents??

I dont see him switching because he's gonna want to get the big $$ and he knows Borass will get it for him regardless of what team he's playing for. I'm sure he likes it here in Chi-town but money talks as we all know! And not to mention he's got a family to support now.

CWSpalehoseCWS
01-11-2006, 12:09 PM
Today is Wednesday, so if anything is gonna happen it should be today. I hope Crede signs a 2-year deal or something, I'd hate to see him go after next year.

caulfield12
01-11-2006, 12:14 PM
Today is Wednesday, so if anything is gonna happen it should be today. I hope Crede signs a 2-year deal or something, I'd hate to see him go after next year.

If he plays like he did the final six weeks and into the playoffs, I would hate to see him go, too.

Otherwise, heīs not worth the $7-9 million that Boras will be asking for him.

Itīs much the same situation the White Sox faced when signing Jon Garland long-term....we will see over the next two seasons who the real Crede is. Otherwise, we have Mackowiak, Ozuna and Josh Fields as insurance.

Hangar18
01-11-2006, 12:43 PM
I truly believe Joe Crede is a stand-up guy, and that he really does like it here in Chicago and will stay for a FAIR offer. Its up to the SOX to just make him a fair offer, and I believe we will keep him. A team built on "pitching & defense" will certainly want to keep a known excellent defender.
Crede made some HUGE plays at 3b during the series that were worthy of ESPN hilite reels (but hes wearing the wrong uniform)

Lip Man 1
01-11-2006, 12:45 PM
Flight:

The real answer to the issue between the two can be laid at the feet of Ron Scheuler who publicly ripped Boras to the media (and did it more then once...)

Now you can argue that what Schueler was doing was justified but it hardened feelings between the two sides and made negotiations even more difficult.

I seem to recall in the Chicago newspapers a direct quote from Uncle Jerry also calling Boras "a liar..." which really sent the differences to another level and of course you have Williams' comments after the Rodriguez situation and Rodriguez's comments about how Reinsdorf wanted to meet with him personally without Boras present. That certainly says something don't you think?

The two genuinely do not like each other. There have been enough confirmed reports in the papers 'on background' that have made this very clear. It's not that the Sox won't overpay for his clients, it's more then that, it's become very personal.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
01-11-2006, 12:49 PM
Flight:

The real answer to the issue between the two can be laid at the feet of Ron Scheuler who publicly ripped Boras to the media (and did it more then once...)

Now you can argue that what Schueler was doing was justified but it hardened feelings between the two sides and made negotiations even more difficult.

I seem to recall in the Chicago newspapers a direct quote from Uncle Jerry also calling Boras "a liar..." which really sent the differences to another level and of course you have Williams' comments after the Rodriguez situation and Rodriguez's comments about how Reinsdorf wanted to meet with him personally without Boras present. That certainly says something don't you think?

The two genuinely do not like each other. There have been enough confirmed reports in the papers 'on background' that have made this very clear. It's not that the Sox won't overpay for his clients, it's more then that, it's become very personal.

LipBut you don't have to like everyone you have to deal with in the business world. I'm sure Reinsdorf had plenty of people in the real estate world he didn't much like, but you learn to deal with it. The popularly held view that Reinsdorf won't negotiate with a Boras client is rubbish and he's said so himself on numerous occasions. So has KW.

Flight #24
01-11-2006, 12:56 PM
Flight:

The real answer to the issue between the two can be laid at the feet of Ron Scheuler who publicly ripped Boras to the media (and did it more then once...)

Now you can argue that what Schueler was doing was justified but it hardened feelings between the two sides and made negotiations even more difficult.

I seem to recall in the Chicago newspapers a direct quote from Uncle Jerry also calling Boras "a liar..." which really sent the differences to another level and of course you have Williams' comments after the Rodriguez situation and Rodriguez's comments about how Reinsdorf wanted to meet with him personally without Boras present. That certainly says something don't you think?

The two genuinely do not like each other. There have been enough confirmed reports in the papers 'on background' that have made this very clear. It's not that the Sox won't overpay for his clients, it's more then that, it's become very personal.

Lip

I wouldn't dispute any of what you said, except that it doesn't mean they won't and don't do business together.
- Just last year, during the whole Magglio fiasco, Boras was on the radio and quoted as saying he has no problems dealing with the Sox.
- On the same station at a different point, Kenny Williams said he deals with Boras, but they "differ on the value of the player", so he did not expect to sign the player in question.
- At a still later point, JR was interviewed and specifically said he has no issues dealing with Boras because he just assumes he's lying and does his own homework. He also said that owners that did not do that and simply believed him were being foolish.

All of which is consistent with the Sox being 100% willing to deal with Boras but not kowtowing to his games.

They may hate each other, but that doesn't mean they don't and can't transact business. It happens all the time.

Soxski71
01-11-2006, 12:59 PM
My memory is a little faded from too much :gulp: these last few months, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall when ARod became a free agent, Kenny was going after him pretty hard. I remember reading somewhere that Boras used the Sox as leverage with Texas, and that Kenny has never forgiven him for that, plus all the other stuff with the draft picks.

Lip Man 1
01-11-2006, 01:00 PM
Not saying they won't, just pointing out the answer to the poster who asked why the two have such a hard time dealing with each other. You said because they won't agree to his demands, I say that's a small part of it. The two have gone past business into personally ripping each other.

Naturally they'll say at times to the media 'nothing is wrong' but the reality is they don't like each other which is partially the reason (as stated in Mark Gonzales story) why the two so rarely do business.

Lip

Flight #24
01-11-2006, 01:14 PM
Not saying they won't, just pointing out the answer to the poster who asked why the two have such a hard time dealing with each other. You said because they won't agree to his demands, I say that's a small part of it. The two have gone past business into personally ripping each other.

Naturally they'll say at times to the media 'nothing is wrong' but the reality is they don't like each other which is partially the reason (as stated in Mark Gonzales story) why the two so rarely do business.

Lip

I sincerely doubt that Boras steers his clients away from the Sox because he doesn't like JR, just like I doubt that the Sox avoid Boras clients because of bad feelings. If Boras were to do that, he'd be breaching his duty to his clients, and similarly, the Sox would be harming only themselves by not taking on a player that otherwise would help them and fit financially. These are smart people, they're going to operate above that level of pettiness.

I do not doubt for a second that Boras believes that the Sox are unlikely to be high bidders for his clients and that the Sox believe that Boras is going to be asking for more than they value the player at. However, that's a far far cry from allowing personal anomisities to interfere with business.

Domeshot17
01-11-2006, 01:23 PM
It just kind of shows the business of baseball. I am sure Kenny would deal with Boras if it meant Crede. However, I am also sure you wont see Kenny and Boras going out for a drink anytime soon. I think Boras is kind of losing his edge with the upside arguement. a guy like millwood he can get the job done, but Jared Weaver kind of killed him with younger guys, make weaver hold out for an entire year then sign for the original offer given on day 1. I would like to see them get a 2 or 3 year deal done, because i fear with a 1 year deal, Crede could bust out, and me might be looking down the pipe of of a boras demanding a konerko sized contract

jdm2662
01-11-2006, 01:28 PM
Crede leaving is a non-issue until the end of the 2008 season. He can't demand a such long term contract until then. Just give him a set of 1 year deals until he's an UFA. He hasn't proven he can hit well on a consistent basis.

Fuller_Schettman
01-11-2006, 01:31 PM
I truly believe Joe Crede is a stand-up guy, and that he really does like it here in Chicago and will stay for a FAIR offer. Its up to the SOX to just make him a fair offer, and I believe we will keep him.

Let me axe you this: In the Kenny Williams era, have the Sox ever been known to make an offer that wasn't fair? I would submit that KW's brilliance, and his reputation for that matter, are founded on the basis of his fairness.

Fair enough?

DumpJerry
01-11-2006, 01:33 PM
My memory is a little faded from too much :gulp: these last few months, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall when ARod became a free agent, Kenny was going after him pretty hard. I remember reading somewhere that Boras used the Sox as leverage with Texas, and that Kenny has never forgiven him for that, plus all the other stuff with the draft picks.
As I recall from a posting a long time ago on this subject, I think Borass told the Rangers that there was a larger offer on the table from an unidentified team and used that to increase the money from the Rangers. Turns out there was no other offer on the table from another team, Borass was simply taking advantage of the fact that teams cannot talk to each other during negotiations about the offers they have pending.

There was a posting on WSI about a week or so ago quoting Crede saying that he wants to stay on the South Side and if his representation does not work on that happening, he will find new representation.

caulfield12
01-11-2006, 03:02 PM
Crede leaving is a non-issue until the end of the 2008 season. He can't demand a such long term contract until then. Just give him a set of 1 year deals until he's an UFA. He hasn't proven he can hit well on a consistent basis.

We only have Crede through the end of the 2007 season, two more years.

TheKittle
01-11-2006, 04:16 PM
Why the hell can't Crede fire his agent and hire a new one? Is Boras really that good?

Umm, yes.

KRS1
01-11-2006, 04:45 PM
We only have Crede through the end of the 2007 season, two more years.

Please let this be the last time someone has to explain this here. This will be Joe's first year of arb., a player must go through 3 years of arb. to become a FA. Thus, Joe Crede is not a FA until after the 08' season.

Vernam
01-11-2006, 06:35 PM
Please let this be the last time someone has to explain this here. This will be Joe's first year of arb., a player must go through 3 years of arb. to become a FA. Thus, Joe Crede is not a FA until after the 08' season.True, though that's not quite the same as saying we have him locked up through '08. The Sox can ensure that he stays here IF they're willing to pay whatever the aribiter decides is a fair price. That's assuming they don't work something out first with Boras. (The surrogate approach is interesting; it lets KW and JR keep him at arm's length, and sort of keep their word about never again dealing with the guy.)

But the way KW handled Garland is a more likely blueprint: Take our fair offer, or be prepared for a trade to some team of our choosing. I don't think it'll happen in '06, but I'd give odds that it'll happen in '07 if Crede doesn't sign a long-term deal first. No way KW goes to arbitration with him (more specifically, with Boras) for three straight years.

Vernam

caulfield12
01-11-2006, 06:54 PM
Please let this be the last time someone has to explain this here. This will be Joe's first year of arb., a player must go through 3 years of arb. to become a FA. Thus, Joe Crede is not a FA until after the 08' season.

It will be interesting. I donīt think many here would bet on Crede being around in 2008, but anything is possible I suppose.

With so many pitchers only be signed through 2007 (with the exception of Vazquez and McCarthy), the entire roster could be totally retooled for the 2008 season. You would think the blueprint would be to continue building around pitching, fundamentals, speed and solid defense.

Flight #24
01-11-2006, 07:41 PM
it lets KW and JR keep him at arm's length, and sort of keep their word about never again dealing with the guy.)


This is not true. Not to single you out, Vernam - but this is an oft-repeated misconception. KW & JR have never said they won't deal with Boras (and vice versa). They've said he overprices guys, that he lies, and I believe once there was a mention of eating babies. But never that they won't deal with him.

If you can point to a quote, that would be great. Otherwise, let's let this misconception die.

miker
01-11-2006, 07:43 PM
Why the hell can't Crede fire his agent and hire a new one? Is Boras really that good?
Better than say...Drew Rosenhaus?

Vernam
01-13-2006, 03:07 PM
This is not true. Not to single you out, Vernam - but this is an oft-repeated misconception. KW & JR have never said they won't deal with Boras (and vice versa). They've said he overprices guys, that he lies, and I believe once there was a mention of eating babies. But never that they won't deal with him.

If you can point to a quote, that would be great. Otherwise, let's let this misconception die.Don't worry, being singled out is better than being ignored. I'll have to try being wrong more often! :wink: Here's a quote, but it tends to support your assertion: http://tinyurl.com/ck3vh.

I did hear with my own ears the Silvy/Carmen interview of JR described at http://tinyurl.com/e3bqt, in which the chairman called Boras a liar. That was the basis of my assumption about JR refusing to deal with the guy, but I see now that it's not the same thing.

As I recall, in the same interview he also said he'd never negotiate with a coach (e.g., Skiles) who hires an agent, and we all know how that turned out . . . And how it almost turned out, when Skiles nearly left town.

It's interesting how Reinsdorf's intransigence on certain matters is now seen as a virtue rather than a liability. I should live so long!

Vernam

wilburaga
01-13-2006, 03:22 PM
Just curious. When was the last time the Sox signed a Boras client to a multi-year contract? Anyone know, because I don't.


W

gobears1987
01-13-2006, 03:44 PM
Nah, he'll be hitting his usual .220 - .250. He's at least fairly consistent in his offensive mediocrity.

Crede is a fine defender and turns into a much better offensive threat during the 9th inning, but he's not somebody you give a big-money contract to.For once I agree with Homefish.