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Fenway
01-10-2006, 01:02 PM
(COOPERSTOWN, NY): Bruce Sutter, who revolutionized the split-fingered fastball and was among the first of the closing relief pitcher specialists, was elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/default.htm) by the Baseball Writers' Association of America in balloting (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/_private/2006_BBWAA/060110b.htm) verified by Ernst & Young. He will be inducted into the Hall July 30 at the Clark Sports Center in Cooperstown, N.Y.

Mod Edit: 50% of a copyrighted (by MLB) article is not "fair use." This is the second time I've had to snip one of your copy-and-paste jobs. Next time, you'll be taking a week off.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/news/2006/060110.htm

gf2020
01-10-2006, 01:08 PM
Good. This will make it easier for Bobby Jenks to get in 30 years from now.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-10-2006, 01:10 PM
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/news/2006/060110b.htm

Voting results. Ozzie snagged 5 votes.

Former White Sox Players (390 needed for election & 27 to stay on the ballot for next year)
Rich Gossage 336
Tommy John 154
Albert Belle 40
Alex Fernandez 0

Medford Bobby
01-10-2006, 01:13 PM
But WHY?:?:

Fenway
01-10-2006, 01:13 PM
I feel bad for Rice and Jack Morris especially. They are both paying the price of not being friendly to the media.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-10-2006, 01:28 PM
Other than having your name in the Hall of Fame as one of the best players to ever play the game (which I know is a huge honor), what other benefits do you get if you are elected? I never heard anything about this before. I know that people who win the Nobel Peace Prize receive $1,000,000. So I would have to assume these HOF guys get something as well (other than what I first said).

salty99
01-10-2006, 01:29 PM
Jack Morris is a very borderline case. Goose Goosage should be in if Sutter is in.

32nd&Wallace
01-10-2006, 01:49 PM
I feel bad for Rice and Jack Morris especially. They are both paying the price of not being friendly to the media.Why feel bad for two jerks?

TheOldRoman
01-10-2006, 02:05 PM
Why feel bad for two jerks?
Well, I am too young to know either of them.
I do know, however, that mindless morons across the northside and the rest of the country will be saying that about Frank Thomas when he doesn't get in on the first ballot (he wont, although he IS a first ballot hall of famer if there ever was one).

downstairs
01-10-2006, 02:08 PM
Why feel bad for two jerks?

Because "jerk" is not a category in which baseball players should be judged.

I mean... some people are just quiet, don't like to be bothered. As a fan, that's never bothered me. I never minded Albert Belle's attitude, or Frank's when he exhibited some of these characteristics.

Just play great baseball, don't take steroids, don't gamble on baseball, and I'll have no problem with you.

TommyJohn
01-10-2006, 02:13 PM
I feel bad for Rice and Jack Morris especially. They are both paying the price of not being friendly to the media.

Eddie Murray wasn't exactly media-friendly, and he's in.

TheOldRoman
01-10-2006, 02:33 PM
I don't know whether or not Morris should be in the Baseball Hall of Fame, but he certainly belongs in the Mustache Hall of Fame.

On second thought, they should have a "Great 'Staches of the Game" wing in Cooperstown. Jose Valentin can take his rightful place next to past greats like Rollie Fingers and Robin Yount.

PaulDrake
01-10-2006, 03:00 PM
Baseball has the weakest Hall of Fame of the 4 major sports IMHO. Being "very good" shouldn't qualify you. If you have to think about a player, spend time poring over his stats, then he probably shouldn't be voted in. Would you do that with Hank Aaron? Mickey Mantle? How about modern players like Pedro Martinez or Greg Maddux? They all belong and most baseball fans don't have to think twice. Bruce Sutter was a really good player but he'd never make my HOF.

Domeshot17
01-10-2006, 03:03 PM
Because "jerk" is not a category in which baseball players should be judged.


I second that. Holding out a player from the hall for his attitude over his stats is wrong. IF this was the criteria for all, Ty Cobb would be kicked out of the HOF in a second.

Now I dont know if Morris is actually a HOF stats wise, but I agree attitude should not be factored in, because it creates a bias. I think this could hurt Frank and keep him out as a first balloter

ChiSoxRowand
01-10-2006, 03:47 PM
It sucks that Blyleven got left off again. The guy would have been in a while ago if he would have played in places like New York or Boston (or even the Cubs). But he played in places like Minnesota, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland. IMO the only reason Jack Morris even gets considered is because of ONE GAME in 91. Bill Mazeroski knows how that feels.

1951Campbell
01-10-2006, 04:27 PM
Eddie Murray wasn't exactly media-friendly, and he's in.

Hell, did Steve Carlton ever even have a conversation with a media member?

PKalltheway
01-10-2006, 04:31 PM
Eddie Murray wasn't exactly media-friendly, and he's in.

Well Eddie Murray had numbers you absolutely could not ignore. 504 career home runs and over 3,000 career hits. Only two other people (and I am intentionally ignoring one) can say that: Hank Aaron and Willie Mays. Jim Rice may have good, but not that good to where you can overlook his surliness (at least in sportswriter's opinions). Personally, I don't think Rice belongs in because he just doesn't seem that outstanding to me. I know I have never seen him play, but he did not seem like he was outstanding. Seems like they're trying to get him in because of four good years. If that's the case, then why not elect Cecil Fielder into the hall? It is the Hall of Fame, and Rice does not seem that famous to me. I have only one baseball card of him. But that's just my opinion.

havelj
01-10-2006, 04:35 PM
Which hat will the HOF decide Sutter will go in as? I think it should be as a Cardinal.

http://re2.mm-b1.yimg.com/image/459374749

http://re2.mm-b1.yimg.com/image/459369985

Lip Man 1
01-10-2006, 04:38 PM
Sutter revolutionized the game with that pitch and was very good at it. If he invented the pitch and stunk we wouldn't be having this discussion would we?

I have no issues with him in the Hall...it'll make it easier for Goose now.

If you want to talk issues then why aren't Katt, John and Blyleven in? (and for that matter Pierce and Minoso??)

Lip

maurice
01-10-2006, 05:14 PM
Thomas' numbers >>> Morris' numbers.

Fenway
01-10-2006, 07:20 PM
When you talk about Jim Rice there is a very big "what if"

Rice missed the entire post-season in 1975 due to broken hand suffered from a Vern Ruhle fastball and his replacement Cecil Cooper went 1-19 in the World Series against the Reds. It is fair to say Rice probably would have done better and perhaps tilted the series in Boston's favor. Had it not have been for that pitch by Ruhle, Rice may very well be in Cooperstown.

TDog
01-10-2006, 08:30 PM
Hell, did Steve Carlton ever even have a conversation with a media member?

In Curt Flood's autobiography, there is a story about Steve Carlton in a live postgame interview with Harry Caray in their Cardinals days. (Harry Caray's Cardinals days ended when he began working for the Cubs.) Carlton responded in locker room jargon to a pitch-location question. It's kind of funny, but in questionable taste.

Actually, I'm surprised anyone was elected this year. My ballot would have been blank.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-10-2006, 08:43 PM
Other than having your name in the Hall of Fame as one of the best players to ever play the game (which I know is a huge honor), what other benefits do you get if you are elected? I never heard anything about this before. I know that people who win the Nobel Peace Prize receive $1,000,000. So I would have to assume these HOF guys get something as well (other than what I first said).

No, just the "huge honor" part which is good enough for most people.

They are able to increase their rate for appearance fees (speeches and autographs sessions, etc.) in most cases after being elected.

This is unlike the "Hollywood star of fame" where celebrities actually pay to be "inducted" and is not an honor but rather a PR stunt.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-10-2006, 09:00 PM
Baseball has the weakest Hall of Fame of the 4 major sports IMHO. Being "very good" shouldn't qualify you. If you have to think about a player, spend time poring over his stats, then he probably shouldn't be voted in. Would you do that with Hank Aaron? Mickey Mantle? How about modern players like Pedro Martinez or Greg Maddux? They all belong and most baseball fans don't have to think twice. Bruce Sutter was a really good player but he'd never make my HOF.

While I agree Baseball has some weak candidates elected (mostly of the Veterans Committee variety though I think Sutter and Tony Perez were very weak candidates as well), football has an even weaker admissions standard. Hockey standards are even less stringent. I don't follow pro basketball and know nothing about their standards.

NFL - 229 Hall of Fame Members (NFL founded in 1921)

MLB - 260 Hall of Fame Members (National League Founded in 1876)
195 ML players (Writers selected 103, Veterans Committee selected 92). Also inducted - 24 executives, 19 Negro League players, 16 managers & 8 umpires)

NHL - 232 Players, 93 Executives! (including Bill Wirtz :angry: ) & 14 Referees. Players were inducted for service from the late 19th century onward.

As far as visiting goes, I liked going to Cooperstown best followed by the Hockey Hall of Fame in Toronto and then the NFL Hall in Canton.

Daver
01-10-2006, 09:11 PM
The baseball HOF is a joke, and will continue to be a joke until the selection process and those that are able to vote on selections are changed.

The fact that Bert Blyleven and Billy Pierce are on the outside, looking in ( and in Billy's case, looking in for nothing, as he is no longer eligible) while guys like Don Drysdale are in proves that it is a flawed system.

Harold Baines is going to become the first player with over 1500 RBI to NOT make the HOF, because he was a DH for many years of his career, and the myopic old men that make up the majority of the vote do not recognize it as a true position.

The baseball HOF is there to honor players that put up numbers while playing the press well, if you were not media freindly or put up huge numbers, take your seat at the group W bench and wait for us to call you.

Dear baseball HOF,

Kiss my ass.

Sincerely,

Daver

Vernam
01-10-2006, 09:12 PM
Which hat will the HOF decide Sutter will go in as? I think it should be as a Cardinal.

http://re2.mm-b1.yimg.com/image/459374749

http://re2.mm-b1.yimg.com/image/459369985Dunno. But it's clear which chin he ought to choose.

Nothing against Sutter, but now it's probably just a matter of time before Lee Smith gets in, fwiw. I don't know how they keep Blyleven, Kaat and Tommy John out when durability supposedly is considered an important criterion, especially after Canseco et al.

Vernam

SouthSide_HitMen
01-10-2006, 09:20 PM
Which hat will the HOF decide Sutter will go in as? I think it should be as a Cardinal.

http://re2.mm-b1.yimg.com/image/459374749

http://re2.mm-b1.yimg.com/image/459369985

He played longer with the Cubs and won a Cy Young with them. He won the World Series in 1982. I would bet the Cardinals (like Fisk - his greatest moment came in the World Series).

Looking at his career stats again makes me think this selection was even more pathetic (even though I expected it) than I thought it was when I heard it at 1:00 pm.

Hitmen77
01-10-2006, 10:07 PM
In Curt Flood's autobiography, there is a story about Steve Carlton in a live postgame interview with Harry Caray in their Cardinals days. (Harry Caray's Cardinals days ended when he began working for the Cubs.) Carlton responded in locker room jargon to a pitch-location question. It's kind of funny, but in questionable taste.

Actually, I'm surprised anyone was elected this year. My ballot would have been blank.

:tealpolice:

PKalltheway
01-10-2006, 11:10 PM
Honestly, why won't the writers vote in Bert Blyleven? What's wrong with him? He had 287 career wins (I guess since the Baseball Writers don't know how to do math, that's 13 wins shy of 300) and 3,701 career strikeouts. Only four people have more strikeouts than him: Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, and Steve Carlton. At one point, Blyleven was third all time in strikeouts. After seeing clips on Sportscenter of Blyleven pitching, he should go in just for that hammer of a curveball alone!:cool: Also, he helped pitch the Pirates and Twins to World Series titles in 1979 and 1987 respectively.

DenverSock
01-11-2006, 01:11 AM
1) Goose Gossage deserves to get in.

2) Players choose which team they go into the HOF representing.

havelj
01-11-2006, 01:29 AM
Does anyone remember why the Cubs traded Sutter after the 1980 season? It looks like they assumed they had other stoppers on their roster and needed to get help at 1B and 3B? Was it a splash by the new owners - the Tribune Co.? Odd to trade within the division.

Traded by the Chicago Cubs (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHC/1980.shtml) to the St. Louis Cardinals (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/1980.shtml) for a player to be named later, Leon Durham (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/durhale01.shtml), and Ken Reitz (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/reitzke01.shtml).

Check out the future/past stoppers on the 1980 Cubs roster (most got their saves with other teams):

Bill Caudill (100 career saves)
Dick Tidrow (Led the '81 team in saves)
Rawly Eastwick (68 career saves)
Lee Smith (478 career saves)
Jay Howell (155 career saves)
Willie Hernandez (147 career saves)

The Cubs had also traded Donnie Moore (89 career saves) after the '79 season - to the Cardinals and we know the Dennis Eckersley (arrived in '84) story with them.

Amazing how many stoppers they had - yet since 1981 have the most losses in the National League.

MUsoxfan
01-11-2006, 01:39 AM
Honestly, why won't the writers vote in Bert Blyleven? What's wrong with him?

He goes to the Ron Santo school of shameless self-promotion

SouthSide_HitMen
01-11-2006, 01:50 AM
1) Goose Gossage deserves to get in.

2) Players choose which team they go into the HOF representing.

1. Yes

2. No - the rules changed after the various fiascos involving Reggie, Fisk, Winfield and Boggs among others.



http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/faq.htm#logo

Who decides what team logo will be used on induction plaques?
The choice of which team’s logo appears on a player’s plaque is the Museum's decision, though we always consider the wishes of an inductee. As a history museum and as such, it's important that the logo be emblematic of the historical accomplishments of that player's career. A player's election to the Hall of Fame is a career achievement, and as such, every team for whom he played is listed on the plaque; however, the logo selection is based on where that player makes his most indelible mark. Visit our Hall of Fame plaque section to see the plaques of your favorite Hall of Fame members.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-11-2006, 01:54 AM
Amazing how many stoppers they had - yet since 1981 have the most losses in the National League.

You can't get the all important save if your team is not ahead.

1976 - 75-87 4th place, 26 games back
1977 - 81-81 4th place, 20 GB
1978 - 79-83 3rd place, 11 GB
1979 - 80-82 5th place, 18 GB
1980 - 64-98 6th place, 27 GB

DenverSock
01-11-2006, 09:27 AM
1. Yes

2. No - the rules changed after the various fiascos involving Reggie, Fisk, Winfield and Boggs among others.



http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/faq.htm#logo

Who decides what team logo will be used on induction plaques?
The choice of which team’s logo appears on a player’s plaque is the Museum's decision, though we always consider the wishes of an inductee. As a history museum and as such, it's important that the logo be emblematic of the historical accomplishments of that player's career. A player's election to the Hall of Fame is a career achievement, and as such, every team for whom he played is listed on the plaque; however, the logo selection is based on where that player makes his most indelible mark. Visit our Hall of Fame plaque section to see the plaques of your favorite Hall of Fame members.
I did not know that the rules had changed. I remember Reggie Jackson deciding to go in as a Yankee. I find it interesting that all the players you named have a connection to the Yankees. I know that Winfield chose to go in as a Padre at least partially because he wanted to be the first Padre in the Hall. Just what did you mean about the Bogg's fiasco?

SouthSide_HitMen
01-11-2006, 09:40 AM
I did not know that the rules had changed. I remember Reggie Jackson deciding to go in as a Yankee. I find it interesting that all the players you named have a connection to the Yankees. I know that Winfield chose to go in as a Padre at least partially because he wanted to be the first Padre in the Hall. Just what did you mean about the Bogg's fiasco?

Reggie Jackson received $200,000 from George Steinbrenner as an inducement to go in as a Yankee.

Dave Winfield received a position with the San Diego Padres as a quid pro quo to enter the Hall with a SD on his hat.

Carlton Fisk, who I am sure Fenway can elaborate further, had his various gestures / negotiations with the Boston Red Sox to go in with the B on his hat including having his uniform number 27 retired.

Wade Boggs, the last straw in the "inducement" game had as part of his contract with the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, the team he played for before retirement, that he would choose their cap for the Hall of Fame.

The Hall of Fame changed their rule after this contract but before Boggs' induction in 2005.

AZChiSoxFan
01-11-2006, 09:48 AM
Honestly, why won't the writers vote in Bert Blyleven? What's wrong with him? He had 287 career wins (I guess since the Baseball Writers don't know how to do math, that's 13 wins shy of 300) and 3,701 career strikeouts. Only four people have more strikeouts than him: Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, and Steve Carlton. At one point, Blyleven was third all time in strikeouts. After seeing clips on Sportscenter of Blyleven pitching, he should go in just for that hammer of a curveball alone!:cool: Also, he helped pitch the Pirates and Twins to World Series titles in 1979 and 1987 respectively.

He also had 250 losses, won 20 games in a season just one time, never won a Cy Young award, and only made 2 all star teams. Being a decent/good pitcher for 40 years does not qualify one for the HOF.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-11-2006, 10:01 AM
He also had 250 losses, won 20 games in a season just one time, never won a Cy Young award, and only made 2 all star teams. Being a decent/good pitcher for 40 years does not qualify one for the HOF.

Nolan Ryan had 292 loses, won 20 games only two times and never won a Cy Young award.

Bert Blyleven was a better pitcher than 3/4 of the pitchers in the Hall if not more. He should not be denied based on the fact he was signed and traded to poor teams - teams he made a hell of a lot better than they would have been without him.

Blyleven was in the top ten in ERA in 10 seasons, 25th all time in wins (pitching in an era when each team starts 5 pitchers, not 4 pitchers as they did when most of the pitchers ahead of him "earned" their wins), top ten in WHIP 11 times, top 5 in strikeouts 13 times (5th all time - 3,701) and is 9th all time in shutouts (60) pitching in the American League (all but 3 seasons) with a designated hitter and uptick in offense after the 1960s with the decrease in the height of the pitchers mound. In comparison Ryan and Seaver, the only pitchers in the last two generations ahead of him have 61 - 1 more. Clemens (42) and Big Bird (37) are the two active leaders.

lumpyspun
01-11-2006, 10:32 AM
I agree with some others on here that the HOF is kind of hurtin'. If the place wasn't so cool to visit I would totally boycott it. However, if Mcgwire gets in on the first time ballot next year (like Larry Stone of the Seattle Times thinks he should http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002732532_stone11.html ), I think I will definitely boycott it.

Fenway
01-11-2006, 10:47 AM
A New York writer explains why he didn't vote for Rice


Bill Madden of the New York Daily News, a baseball writer since 1972, does not vote for Rice. Asked if Rice's nasty relationship with the writers had anything to do with his vote, Madden said, ''Not with me. I voted for Eddie Murray, and nobody was more rude to me than him. I would hate to think that's the reason people don't vote for Jim Rice."

''I've been on the bubble with him. In the final analysis, the lifetime home runs [382, significantly shy of Murray's 504] aren't there. He's a borderline candidate. There's no denying he was dangerous and feared. When you add it up, he was a middle-of-the-lineup slugger who didn't have 400 home runs. That haunts him more than anything. He needed a couple of more years. We're talking Hall of Fame here. I mean, Andre Dawson finished behind him and he hit 56 more home runs."


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/01/11/verdict_is_in_rice_still_a_tough_out/

TDog
01-11-2006, 11:48 AM
Nolan Ryan had 292 loses, won 20 games only two times and never won a Cy Young award.

Bert Blyleven was a better pitcher than 3/4 of the pitchers in the Hall if not more. ...

Nolan Ryan pitched seven no-hitters and his fame transcended the game.

I think there are 60 pitchers in the Hall of Fame, excluding at least one outfielder who was a better pitcher than Bert Blyleven. From that list, it would be easier to come up with 16 pitchers better than Bert Blyleven than 45 pitchers who Bert Blyleven was better than.

DenverSock
01-11-2006, 12:05 PM
Nolan Ryan pitched seven no-hitters and his fame transcended the game.

In this case I think you hit the nail on the head.

I think there are 60 pitchers in the Hall of Fame, excluding at least one outfielder who was a better pitcher than Bert Blyleven. From that list, it would be easier to come up with 16 pitchers better than Bert Blyleven than 45 pitchers who Bert Blyleven was better than.

Huh? Did you mean: " including at least one outfielder"? That would make more sense.

Going back to the first part of your quote, I think the Hall of Fame is for famous ballplayers. Not just the great ones. As you said, Nolan Ryan's fame transcended baseball. I'm not sure Bert Blyleven's did. (BTW, I think he deserves induction.) It may be unfair that playing for certain teams in bigger media markets makes a difference, but it does.

TDog
01-11-2006, 12:16 PM
In this case I think you hit the nail on the head.



Huh? Did you mean: " including at least one outfielder"? That would make more sense.

Going back to the first part of your quote, I think the Hall of Fame is for famous ballplayers. Not just the great ones. As you said, Nolan Ryan's fame transcended baseball. I'm not sure Bert Blyleven's did. (BTW, I think he deserves induction.) It may be unfair that playing for certain teams in bigger media markets makes a difference, but it does.

I think there are 60 Hall of Famers whose primary position was pitcher. That list does not include Babe Ruth, who is listed as an outfielder but was a better pitcher than Bert Blyleven.

There might be more outfielders who would have been better pitchers than Bert Blyleven had they pitched.

DenverSock
01-11-2006, 12:23 PM
I think there are 60 Hall of Famers whose primary position was pitcher. That list does not include Babe Ruth, who is listed as an outfielder but was a better pitcher than Bert Blyleven.

There might be more outfielders who would have been better pitchers than Bert Blyleven had they pitched.

I now see what you meant. Babe Ruth could have been a HOF pitcher and I believe that part of the reason he's in the HOF is his pitching record which is why I didn't get the allusion. Of course on that point you're 100% correct. You, on the other hand, don't seem to appreciate how Bert Blyleven sufferred from bad teams which distorts his stats and kept him out of the public eye.

JimEdmonds15
01-11-2006, 12:30 PM
MLB.com is Reporting:
http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/9701/suttercards6rm.jpg

Cardinals.MLB.com is Reporting:
http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/8426/cardssutter20hy.jpg

Poor Cubs..

SouthSide_HitMen
01-11-2006, 12:41 PM
[quote=TDog]I think there are 60 Hall of Famers whose primary position was pitcher. That list does not include Babe Ruth, who is listed as an outfielder but was a better pitcher than Bert Blyleven. [quote]

I don't agree with that assessment. Many of the Veterans Committee picks were worse than Bert Blyleven and several inducted by the writers were on par or worse. Ruth pitched a few years so you can't compare a pretend career to an actual one.

Bert Blyleven will be inducted by the writers within the next six years by the writers and he will take his rightful place in the hall.

Lip Man 1
01-11-2006, 01:02 PM
Edmonds:

Do you have a link to those stories. I can't find them on those web sites.

Lip

JimEdmonds15
01-11-2006, 01:22 PM
Nah I dont have a link but it's on the front page of MLB.com and the Cardinals site.. I'm sure they will have a link somewhere soon..

TheVulture
01-11-2006, 01:27 PM
He also had 250 losses, won 20 games in a season just one time, never won a Cy Young award, and only made 2 all star teams. Being a decent/good pitcher for 40 years does not qualify one for the HOF.

Top 5 ERA 7 times
Top 5 K's 13 times
Top 5 K/BB 13 times
3 or more SHO in 13 seasons including 9 in 1973
top 10 ERA 10 times
top 10 WHIP 11 times
8 times 15+ CG including 25 in '73 and 24 in '85
top 10 K's 15 times
9th all-time 60 SHO
5th all-time K's

I don't think a decent pitcher would be capable of those accomplishments. If the guy played for the Yankees or A's of the 70's and Detroit or Baltimore in the 80's he would've won 350+ games. Easy.

JRIG
01-11-2006, 02:12 PM
I don't think Sutter's a Hall of Famer, but that's a moot point now.

I did want to bring up this topic though --- this MUST pave the way for full-time DHs to have a spot in Cooperstown. I'm talking about guys like Harold Baines and Edgar Martinez. And yea, even Frank I guess, if some voters would try to argue that's he not a HOFer because he DHed for about half his career.

If we're rewarding a guy with only 1,000 career innings pitched in MLB, a guy who never started a game, a guy who's claim to fame is that he was an "elite" closer...how can voters deny DH players? Can you say that batting 4 times per game at an exceptional level, without the ability to get into the flow of the game by playing defense, is not just as difficult of a task as getting 3 outs in the 9th inning while your team has the lead?

If we're now classifying "closer" as an official position, then "DH" should be one too. And guys who were the best at that position should be rewarded with enshrinement.

JRIG
01-11-2006, 02:13 PM
Top 5 ERA 7 times
Top 5 K's 13 times
Top 5 K/BB 13 times
3 or more SHO in 13 seasons including 9 in 1973
top 10 ERA 10 times
top 10 WHIP 11 times
8 times 15+ CG including 25 in '73 and 24 in '85
top 10 K's 15 times
9th all-time 60 SHO
5th all-time K's

I don't think a decent pitcher would be capable of those accomplishments. If the guy played for the Yankees or A's of the 70's and Detroit or Baltimore in the 80's he would've won 350+ games. Easy.

Flip the teams Jack Morris played on with the teams Blyleven played on, and he's a slam dunk Hall of Famer. And Morris would have long ago dropped off the ballot.

JimEdmonds15
01-11-2006, 02:30 PM
Hall of Famer Sutter says relievers overlooked
Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:11 PM ET15

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060111/capt.nyrd10501111844.hall_of_fame_baseball_nyrd105 .jpg

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Bruce Sutter, the newest member of baseball's Hall of Fame, says recognition of the importance of relief pitchers has been long overdue.

"We're on the line every day," he told a news conference in New York on Wednesday, the day after becoming only the fourth reliever to be elected to the Hall of Fame. "The game is set up to get to us. It's a very important position," he added.

Sutter said there were other relievers that belonged in the Hall of Fame besides his predecessors Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley and knuckleballer Hoyt Wilhelm, "I wish I was going in with Lee Smith and Goose Gossage," he said about two other great relievers who were on the ballot but failed to win enough votes.

Sutter, whose Cooperstown plaque will show him wearing a St Louis Cardinals cap, helped change the status of relievers, who are now highly prized to preserve the lead at the end of a game.

"The Cubs gave me a chance to play, signed me as a free agent who was undrafted," Sutter said. "The first day I walked into Wrigley Field (in Chicago) was probably the best day of my life," he said. "But I guess people remember me with the Cardinals winning the World Series in 1982. I think my sons remember me most as a Cardinal."

[More in URL]

http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsArticle....BALL-SUTTER.xml (http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=sportsNews&storyID=uri:2006-01-11T201124Z_01_ROB172573_RTRUKOC_0_US-BASEBALL-SUTTER.xml)

Tragg
01-11-2006, 02:44 PM
Flip the teams Jack Morris played on with the teams Blyleven played on, and he's a slam dunk Hall of Famer. And Morris would have long ago dropped off the ballot.
Blyleven played on a lot of good teams himself. Well over half of his seasons were spent on teams with winning records and he had 3 playoff teams v 4 for Morris.
Jack Morris won 250 games - was a 5 time all star. ERA not all that sporty, which is the argument against him.

Both really, really good pitchers.

JimEdmonds15
01-11-2006, 03:32 PM
Sutter to wear Cards cap on Hall plaque
Reliever also played for Cubs and Braves in career
By Barry M. Bloom / MLB.com

• 2006 Hall of Famer Bruce Sutter: 350K (mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2006/open/hof06/sutter_induction_350.wmv?ct1=mlb)
• Sutter's HOF press conference (mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2006/open/mlbr06/int_archive/011106_sutter_hof_presser.wma?ct1=mlb)
• Leach on what Sutter means to Cards fans (mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2006/open/teams06/sln/mlbr/011106_leach_matthew.wma?ct1=mlb)
• After 13 years, Sutter a Hall of Famer (http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060110&content_id=1293386&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)
• Hall of Fame calls on pioneering Sutter (http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060110&content_id=1293389&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/images/2006/01/11/vV3RZb3U.jpg

NEW YORK -- Bruce Sutter will enter the National Baseball Hall of Fame on July 30 with the interlocking S, T and L of the St. Louis Cardinals on his cap, an official of the shrine in Cooperstown, N.Y., said on Wednesday.

"My sons remember me most as a Cardinal," Sutter said. "My one son is 26 years old and I don't think he's ever seen me without a beard. It's not as black as it used to be, but it's still there."

Sutter's career hit its zenith, though, when he helped the Cardinals defeat the Brewers in Game 7 of the 1982 World Series. Sutter pitched two hitless, shutout innings to earn his second save of the series and punched out Brewers center fielder Gorman Thomas to give the Cardinals their last World Series title.

"My family identifies with me throwing that last pitch to Gorman Thomas," Sutter said. "I'm certainly thankful for what the Cubs did for me. I respect their organization. It's the same way with the Atlanta Braves, an awfully fine organization. I respect everybody who's down there and that's still where I live today. But the Cardinals represent the best years of my career."

[More in URL] (http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060111&content_id=1294207&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl)

ChiSoxRowand
01-11-2006, 03:49 PM
Maybe the biggest joke about the hall of fame balloting is that guys like Walt Weiss and Greg Jeffries got votes. How does Ozzie get 5 votes?

Tragg
01-11-2006, 03:53 PM
Bruce's son, Chad, could hit the living crap out of a baseball. Played catcher for the Green Wave (now a coach) and he knocked it out of Zephyr stadium more than once (a notorious AAA pitchers' park). He has terrible knees (and a rather large gut) which curtailed his short attempt at pro ball. BUt he could mash.

buehrle4cy05
01-11-2006, 04:15 PM
A Cardinals hat.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060111&content_id=1294207&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Flight #24
01-11-2006, 04:36 PM
When you talk about Jim Rice there is a very big "what if"

Rice missed the entire post-season in 1975 due to broken hand suffered from a Vern Ruhle fastball and his replacement Cecil Cooper went 1-19 in the World Series against the Reds. It is fair to say Rice probably would have done better and perhaps tilted the series in Boston's favor. Had it not have been for that pitch by Ruhle, Rice may very well be in Cooperstown.

It's also fair to say that while Frank Thomas deserves to get in, and on the first ballot - any delay or god forbid erroneous exclusion of the Big Hurt could also be attributed directly to the chance meeting of Canseco's syringe and Giambi's ass.

Lip Man 1
01-11-2006, 04:40 PM
On Fox Sports they have now posted a story about Goose absolutely ripping the writers, not only for himself but for some other guys. Apparently he is really pissed.

Lip

Hangar18
01-11-2006, 04:55 PM
The baseball HOF is a joke, and will continue to be a joke until the selection process and those that are able to vote on selections are changed.

The fact that Bert Blyleven and Billy Pierce are on the outside, looking in ( and in Billy's case, looking in for nothing, as he is no longer eligible) while guys like Don Drysdale are in proves that it is a flawed system.

Harold Baines is going to become the first player with over 1500 RBI to NOT make the HOF, because he was a DH for many years of his career, and the myopic old men that make up the majority of the vote do not recognize it as a true position.

The baseball HOF is there to honor players that put up numbers while playing the press well, if you were not media freindly or put up huge numbers, take your seat at the group W bench and wait for us to call you.

Dear baseball HOF,

Kiss my ass.

Sincerely,

Daver

EXCELLENT. The fact that numbskull Ron Santo almost made it in
is cause enough for alarm to this process

Flight #24
01-11-2006, 04:59 PM
Not to hijack, but next year ought to be VERY interesting with Mark McGwire becoming eligible to not discuss the past while standing on a podium at Cooperstown. What was once a lock may well not be - IIRC, the first of the real 'Roidboys to become eligible with HOF caliber #s.

Canseco's also eligible, but there's little to no chance he gets in.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-11-2006, 06:52 PM
Flip the teams Jack Morris played on with the teams Blyleven played on, and he's a slam dunk Hall of Famer. And Morris would have long ago dropped off the ballot.

Blyleven smoked Morris and Morris played on better teams.

Morris - 3824 IP, 549 G, 3.90 ERA (League ERA 4.08), 2478 K, 1.296 WHIP, 254-186, 28 shutouts.

Blyleven - 4970 IP, 692 G, 3.31 ERA (League ERA 3.90), 3701 K, 1.198 WHIP, 287-250, 60 shutouts.

Morris' team record - (1978-1994) - 232 Games Over .500
Blyleven's team record (1970-1992) - 38 Games Over .500

Blyleven had twice as many shutouts, his ERA had a 0.41 advantage vs. league average than Morris (and 0.59 ERA straight up or a 15% advantage), gave up 1 less baserunner per game and struckout over 1200 more hitters and more per game (averaged 26 more Ks per year and 22 less walks per year and 3 less HRs per year).

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/morrija02.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blylebe01.shtml

SouthSide_HitMen
01-11-2006, 07:23 PM
A Cardinals hat.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060111&content_id=1294207&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Cubs - 493 1/3 IP
St. Louis - 396 2/3 IP
Atlanta - 152 1/3 IP

It is a joke when you get elected into the hall of fame with 4-5 years pitched for a typical starter, especially when Gossage pitched more innings and was a better pitcher for several years longer than Sutter.

12 Hall of Famers have been elected by the writers since 2000 and two are a joke (Sutter and Perez) and Kirby Puckett is questionable.

Goose Gossage 1809 1/3 IP, 3.01 ERA (3.78 League Avg), 1502 K, 1.23 WHIP, 124-107, 310 Saves

Lee Smith 1289 1/3 IP, 3.03 ERA (3.99 League Avg), 1251 K, 1.256 WHIP, 71-92, 478 Saves

Bruce Sutter 1042 1/3 IP, 2.83 ERA (3.85 League Avg), 861 K, 1.14 WHIP, 68-71, 300 Saves

Goosage had many 2 and 3 inning outings and still held his rate stats up with the best of them. I really don't think Sutter pitched long enough to make the Hall of Fame. I think Gossage is a no brainer and should have been the fourth reliever elected. Smith would have been a questionable 5th. Sutter shouldn't have been elected.

TDog
01-11-2006, 10:54 PM
I don't agree with that assessment. Many of the Veterans Committee picks were worse than Bert Blyleven and several inducted by the writers were on par or worse. Ruth pitched a few years so you can't compare a pretend career to an actual one.

Bert Blyleven will be inducted by the writers within the next six years by the writers and he will take his rightful place in the hall.

Babe Ruth had twice as man 20-win seasons, in shorter seasons, during his pretend pitching career than Bert Blyleven had in his long real career. But I excluded Mr. Ruth from my assessment.

I still believe I can name 16 HOF pitchers that are better than Blyleven before you can name 45 HOF pitchers who Blyleven was better than. I can name the 16 off the top of my head. The only challenge there is that I might name pitchers better than Blyleven who didn't make the HOF, such as Milt Pappas, who pitched fewer seasons but never gave up 50 home runs in any of them.

Let's start with Nolan Ryan. Then there's Tom Seaver, Ed Walsh, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Bob Gibson, Bob Feller, Warren Spahn, Steve Carlton, Juan Marichal, Ted Lyons, Red Ruffing, Carl Hubbell, Christy Mathewson ... I guess that's more than one-fourth of the pitchers in the HOF right there. And I didn't mention Cy Young.

As for the Veterans Committee picks, name 15 who weren't the pitcher Blyleven was -- as if the standard for the HOF should be the the member that least belongs. A peek at the pitchers put in by the Veterans Committee reveals it voted in Three-Finger Brown, Jim Bunning, Jack Chesbro, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber, Waite Hoyt, "Iron Joe" McGinnity and other pitchers who I believe were better than Bert Blyleven. Rube Waddell and Ed Walsh were voted in by the Veterans Committee.

Maybe some day Bert Blyleven will be elected to the HOF by the Veterans Committee. After Ron Santo is gone, Blyleven will still be there to whine in its direction.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-12-2006, 02:03 AM
Looking at the list of all HOF pitchers he is not in the 1/4 and I take back my earlier statement. I do think his career is more than qualified to enter the hall of fame. When you combine the league leading numbers in his career and the length of time he pitched he still surpasses many hall of famers including some you mention. I also agree with all but a couple of players you cited as being stronger candidates.

I've never heard any whining from Blyleven so maybe you can provide some examples (links or things he has said). I know the build up for Santo has been unbearable at times so I can understand animosity toward Blyleven if he or those around him have produced anything close to the Santo PR mantra. I am only going by his statistics and my memory of him being an excellent pitcher.

His support has increased substantially over the last three years. I don't think any player who exceeded 50% of the vote has ever failed to eventually be elected to the hall by the BBWAA. He will not go in next year due to Ripken and Gwynn (and possibly McGwire) making the ballot. Looking at the next four years:

2008 - Tim Raines should be a first ballot inductee though I am not holding my breath.
2009 - Rickey Henderson is an inner circle Hall of Famer.
2010 - I think eventually Edgar Martinez makes it but not for several years on the ballot.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hof_weekend/future_elections.htm

Bert Blyleven will be elected one of these three years. I think Gossage will also make it in this time frame. I think both are qualified candidates and will strengthen the membership (as opposed to the Tony Perez or Bruce Sutter elections which I think weaken the Hall).

Other pitchers of this era who I think are better and will go into the Hall are:

Roger Clemens - Inner Circle
Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson - First Ballot
Pedro Martinez (with a few more years) & Tom Glavine - Should have no problem

Blyleven reminds me a lot of Mark Buehrle in the fact that both were in the top of the league without much fan fare and put in league leading performances year in and year out. If Mark has another 10 years + of what he has done so far (hopefully all in a Chicago White Sox uniform) he will be the same type candidate and should be elected - a candidate that consistant was one of the top pitchers year in and year out for a long period of time. A pitcher who was never regarded as the best at the time but when you evaluate his career against those of his peers and those of earlier eras he stacks up as one of the best.

TDog
01-12-2006, 10:56 AM
...

Blyleven reminds me a lot of Mark Buehrle in the fact that both were in the top of the league without much fan fare and put in league leading performances year in and year out. ...

Don't compare Bert Blyleven to Mark Buehrle. Blyleven was an overhyped pitcher with more fanfare than his pitching warranted, although not to the extreme Kerry Wood seems to be taking it. His pitching failed to hold up to his reputation, until the end when the reality of his performance degraded his reputation. On one hand, Blyleven gave up more than 400 home runs because he pitched a very long time. He also won so many games because he pitched a very long time. He was a good pitcher who once won 20 games in a very long career. Wilbur Wood was a starter for five full seasons and won 20 games in four of those years PITCHING FOR THE WHITE SOX.

Bert Blyleven had a good career. So did Tommy John and Jim Kaat, who aren't in the Hall of Fame either.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-12-2006, 11:29 AM
Don't compare Bert Blyleven to Mark Buehrle. Blyleven was an overhyped pitcher with more fanfare than his pitching warranted, although not to the extreme Kerry Wood seems to be taking it. His pitching failed to hold up to his reputation, until the end when the reality of his performance degraded his reputation. On one hand, Blyleven gave up more than 400 home runs because he pitched a very long time. He also won so many games because he pitched a very long time. He was a good pitcher who once won 20 games in a very long career. Wilbur Wood was a starter for five full seasons and won 20 games in four of those years PITCHING FOR THE WHITE SOX.

Bert Blyleven had a good career. So did Tommy John and Jim Kaat, who aren't in the Hall of Fame either.

You keep bringing up 20 wins. Most of the pitchers with the "magic" number pitched on 4 man staffs. Wilber Wood had anywhere from 42 - 49 starts due to the fact he threw the knuckleball to obtain those 20 wins.

Saying Mark Beuhrle has a chance to match the career of Blyleven is a complement. Beuhrle topped 16 wins once in his first five full seasons. Blyleven had 2 17 win and a 20 win seasons during his first five seasons. You say "don't compare Blyleven to Beuhrle" but I see many similarities which I laid out. If Beuhrle finishes his career and is considered by over 50% of BBWAA voters for the Hall than he will have had a better career than most White Sox fans could expect.

287 Wins (only 9 pitchers in the last two generations have reached this - 25th all time) , 60 Shutouts, an ERA 0.60 lower than league average, 10 Top 10 ERA finishes, 11 Top ten WHIP finishes, 5th all time on the strikeout list (with 13 top 5 finishes), 60 shutouts (9th all time and 1 less than Ryan and Seaver). You may not like these numbers but they are facts and the fact is he is well qualified for the Hall of Fame and he will be elected by the writers before the decade is over. He should have been elected with Gossage this year.

TDog
01-12-2006, 11:35 AM
... He should have been elected with Gossage this year.

He wasn't elected this year, and he'll never be elected unless he finds a Veterans Committee with the lower standards you complain about.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-12-2006, 11:37 AM
He wasn't elected this year, and he'll never be elected unless he finds a Veterans Committee with the lower standards you complain about.

Well we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. His vote % has increased over the last three years and he will reach the hall by the end of the decade whether it pleases you or not.

TDog
01-13-2006, 01:49 AM
Well we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. His vote % has increased over the last three years and he will reach the hall by the end of the decade whether it pleases you or not.

If that's the case, what are you complaining about?