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getonbckthr
01-04-2006, 05:19 PM
These are according to:
www.baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com).
274 games played, 708 putouts, 8 assists, 7 errors, 3 double plays .991 fielding percentage. These are in the last 2 seasons where he played CF in Milwaukee.
Here are Torii Hunters stats for the same 2 yrs(not including last year injury):
277 games,736 po, 10 assists, 8 errors, 1 dp, 986 %
Here are Aaron Rowand's stats (04-05 only 2 seasons where he was everyday)
283 games, 678 po's,11 assists,9 errors, 2 dp's 986%.
Now i'm not saying he is better than them, but isn't a bad option out there.

mjmcend
01-04-2006, 05:27 PM
These are according to:
www.baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com).
274 games played, 708 putouts, 8 assists, 7 errors, 3 double plays .991 fielding percentage. These are in the last 2 seasons where he played CF in Milwaukee.
Here are Torii Hunters stats for the same 2 yrs(not including last year injury):
277 games,736 po, 10 assists, 8 errors, 1 dp, 986 %
Here are Aaron Rowand's stats (04-05 only 2 seasons where he was everyday)
283 games, 678 po's,11 assists,9 errors, 2 dp's 986%.
Now i'm not saying he is better than them, but isn't a bad option out there.

Stats tell you next to nothing for defense. He is not even close to Hunter, Rowand, and from what I have heard Anderson.

batmanZoSo
01-04-2006, 05:29 PM
This only strengthens the notion that stats don't mean anything, especially when it comes to defense. I barely trust him in left as it is, let alone center.

getonbckthr
01-04-2006, 05:30 PM
Stats tell you next to nothing for defense. He is not even close to Hunter, Rowand, and from what I have heard Anderson.
Ok I will bold the last line in my original post.

Tragg
01-04-2006, 05:30 PM
You saw his arm in the WS. Almost cost us a game. (Pods had no chance of throwing that runner out; 90% of outfielders would have had the ball beat the player by 5 feet, with accuracy of the throw the only determinant of safe/out).
What's his range?

#2 put it well; we're downgrading with him in CF. Do we really want to do that? It's sort of reverting to our 2004 philosophy by doing that.

And frankly, not to open up another can of worms, I like Pods, but an improvement at lead-off may be an area that KW might want to upgrade next year. I say that knowing full well that Pods is the best lead-off hitter we've had since Raines (although Durham could have an argument). That's a reason why I'd like to keep some of these minor league outfielders.

soxinem1
01-04-2006, 06:07 PM
You saw his arm in the WS. Almost cost us a game. (Pods had no chance of throwing that runner out; 90% of outfielders would have had the ball beat the player by 5 feet, with accuracy of the throw the only determinant of safe/out).
What's his range?

#2 put it well; we're downgrading with him in CF. Do we really want to do that? It's sort of reverting to our 2004 philosophy by doing that.

And frankly, not to open up another can of worms, I like Pods, but an improvement at lead-off may be an area that KW might want to upgrade next year. I say that knowing full well that Pods is the best lead-off hitter we've had since Raines (although Durham could have an argument). That's a reason why I'd like to keep some of these minor league outfielders.

I agree, I remember Lance Johnson in CF. He caught everything he got to, but couldn't throw worth a ****.

In all honesty, a CF who has a FP over .990 is probably playing too conservative. Beltran, Griffey, Hunter, all have FP below .990, but the assists and PO's are the key, not FP.

I say we give Anderson a shot, there's nothing wrong with some young blood obviously hungry to prove himself getting a legit shot.

kevin57
01-04-2006, 06:44 PM
PODS in left is the best place for him. In CF? as a last ditch option? okay.

Anderson is the man for CF. All had better get used to it.

ondafarm
01-04-2006, 08:09 PM
I've seen Anderson play CF and he will make you forget ARow.

Several of the stats for defense are missleading. Sure, a lot of errors is bad. Assists can be very missleading. A guy with a great arm, everybody knows about and they don't run on, so he gets fewer assists. CF requires a lot of instinct and reading of the ball. The best defensive CF really study the opposition's hitters and their own pitchers. Anderson will. Give him a chance, I guarantee Ozzie is going to.

buehrle4cy05
01-04-2006, 08:12 PM
I'll move Pods to center if we trade for a bona-fide left fielder.

Daver
01-04-2006, 08:18 PM
Podsednik is a bona fide LF.

RKMeibalane
01-04-2006, 08:22 PM
Not this again. Statistics don't mean anything when it comes to playing defense. Royce Clayton holds the fielding-percentage record, yet everyone here knows the reason for that: he cheated and played up the middle, so he didn't even have a chance to field balls that were hit between third and short. Podsednick has proven that he has limited range, so he shouldn't be used in center. It may not be a problem in a park like the 'Cell, but I can't imagine what would happen in a place like Detroit or even Yankee Stadium. I don't want Pods anywhere near CF, unless he's backing up a play.

buehrle4cy05
01-04-2006, 08:24 PM
Podsednik is a bona fide LF.

Exactly. Basically I was trying to say that, because we aren't going to get a LF, he isn't going to move.

I also found out that bona fide doesn't have a hyphon.

Daver
01-04-2006, 08:27 PM
I also found out that bona fide doesn't have a hyphon.

See, you DO learn something every day.


:redneck

FielderJones
01-04-2006, 08:32 PM
I also found out that bona fide doesn't have a hyphon.

And I found out that hyphen doesn't have an o.

buehrle4cy05
01-04-2006, 08:34 PM
And I found out that hyphen doesn't have an o.

Daver really is right. You do learn something new every day.:cool:

Gavin
01-04-2006, 08:55 PM
I seem to remember more games being won in the offseason by offense (mainly via the home run) than by stellar defense, especially outfield defense. Of course, roll the dice again and it might be a different story.

The Deacon
01-04-2006, 09:06 PM
Stats tell you next to nothing for defense. He is not even close to Hunter, Rowand, and from what I have heard Anderson.

There is a stat not included above that is the best measure of defense around, Range Factor. It is the player's average of put-outs and assists per game. It aruges the most important defensive stat is an getting an out. Granted, it isnt flawless but it is probably the best indicator. So, now on to the stats.....
2004 stats b/c thats when Pods actually played there.
Rowand:2.37
Podsednik: 2.59
Hunter:2.51
league avg in 2004 was 2.35

The Deacon
01-04-2006, 09:10 PM
Podsednik is a bona fide LF.

He has a horrible arm which actually makes him a bona fide CF.

Daver
01-04-2006, 09:41 PM
He has a horrible arm which actually makes him a bona fide CF.

You learned baseball where?

ilsox7
01-04-2006, 09:43 PM
There is a stat not included above that is the best measure of defense around, Range Factor. It is the player's average of put-outs and assists per game. It aruges the most important defensive stat is an getting an out. Granted, it isnt flawless but it is probably the best indicator. So, now on to the stats.....
2004 stats b/c thats when Pods actually played there.
Rowand:2.37
Podsednik: 2.59
Hunter:2.51
league avg in 2004 was 2.35

Ugh, baseball defense cannot be reduced to a statistic.

The Deacon
01-04-2006, 09:47 PM
Sure it can, the best defenders get the most outs. Thats all Range Factor is saying.

ilsox7
01-04-2006, 09:49 PM
Sure it can, the best defenders get the most outs. Thats all Range Factor is saying.

How does it account for the fact that one player may have twice as many balls hit to them?

The Deacon
01-04-2006, 09:49 PM
You learned baseball where?

By playing it for 20 years. CF doesnt need a superior arm b/c of all OF positions they throw directly home the least.

ilsox7
01-04-2006, 09:52 PM
By playing it for 20 years. CF doesnt need a superior arm b/c of all OF positions they throw directly home the least.

They also field the ball more in the gaps and therefore are throwing to cut-off men more when there are plays at the plate. Getting the ball to the cut-off man quickly is extremely important. Bottom line is the weakest outfield arm should be in left-field. Strongest arm in right or center.

Daver
01-04-2006, 09:52 PM
By playing it for 20 years. CF doesnt need a superior arm b/c of all OF positions they throw directly home the least.

And throw to first and third the most.

You played for twenty years and failed to notice that?

The Deacon
01-04-2006, 09:59 PM
How does it account for the fact that one player may have twice as many balls hit to them?

Over the course of a season, it equals out. Chance really isnt a factor.
Look it up. Of all the defender we consider 'excellent' they all consistently have the highest range factor. Ozzie Smith has the highest all-time of SS. Andruw Jones is excellent. Tori Hunter. It goes on and on.

The Deacon
01-04-2006, 10:01 PM
And throw to first and third the most.

You played for twenty years and failed to notice that?

Patronize me all you want. CF traditionally has the weakest arm in the OF. And more importantly, arm strength isnt the asset most looked for in a CF.

ilsox7
01-04-2006, 10:02 PM
Over the course of a season, it equals out. Chance really isnt a factor.
Look it up. Of all the defender we consider 'excellent' they all consistently have the highest range factor. Ozzie Smith has the highest all-time of SS. Andruw Jones is excellent. Tori Hunter. It goes on and on.

I still don't buy it. It cannot account for more balls being hit to a player. To say it evens out doesn't do it for me. What if you have a CF with limited range on a team full of fly ball pitchers? He will look better than a CF with a ton of range on a team full of groundball pitchers.

The Deacon
01-04-2006, 10:10 PM
I still don't buy it. It cannot account for more balls being hit to a player. To say it evens out doesn't do it for me. What if you have a CF with limited range on a team full of fly ball pitchers? He will look better than a CF with a ton of range on a team full of groundball pitchers.

I'm definitely not a stat head. And I agree, defensive stats are practically impossible to measure. But at the same time, I think this is the best starting point we have. I think there is something to the stat but in no way would I argue that it is a definitve answer to the defensive caliber of a player. But like I said earlier, if you look at the players that people traditionally view as superb defenders, they typically have higher Range Factors than everyone else.

ilsox7
01-04-2006, 10:11 PM
I'm definitely not a stat head. And I agree, defensive stats are practically impossible to measure. But at the same time, I think this is the best starting point we have. I think there is something to the stat but in no way would I argue that it is a definitve answer to the defensive caliber of a player. But like I said earlier, if you look at the players that people traditionally view as superb defenders, they typically have higher Range Factors than everyone else.

That's cool.

ma-gaga
01-04-2006, 11:53 PM
Defensive 'stats' have a long way to go.

But this is the best way I've seen to rate out various portions of individual player defense:

Link (http://www.tangotiger.net/scouting/scoutResults2005_CHA.html)

http://www.tc.umn.edu/%7Edunca016/Tango%20-%202005%20CHA.jpg

It's a subjective 'fan analysis' of what fans are seeing, and using that information to rate out players. He's done this the last couple of years, and it seems to give a pretty good/accurate summary...

:gulp:

Minnie Me
01-05-2006, 08:00 AM
Does anyone have Wille Harris range factor in CF. I think he is still available to resign and can play both CF and 2B. He is fast and scored the winning run in game 4 of the WS. I love Willie and want to bear his children.

mccombe_35
01-05-2006, 08:21 AM
wow. a lot range-factor bashing here. It isn't perfect, but thats no reason to ignore it. I mean thats like saying batting average isn't accurate because all the players in baseball don't face the same pitchers. (Ex: the AL Central had 3 of the AL's top 5 pitching staffs, including the top 2. the AL East had 4 of the bottom 6 staffs.) So, depenging on the division player X was in, he faced a different quality of pitching a majority of the time.

Also, remember back in '92 when Guillen blew out his knee in that collision with Tim Raines? take a look at these numbers 5 years before & 5 years after the injury

Yr / SB / RF

'87 / 25 / 4.97
'88 / 25 / 5.40
'89 / 36 / 5.06
'90 / 13 / 4.57
'91 / 21 / 4.62
'92 plays just 12 games due to injury
'93 / 5 / 4.14
'94 / 5 / 3.80
'95 / 6 / 4.04
'96 / 6 / 3.89
'97 / 5 / 3.99

To me it looks like that bad knee slowed him down on the bases & in the field.

Again, RF has flaws, but it is just a tool to help evaluate a player & should not be discredited imo.

for the record I don't think Pods would be a very good CF, but he would be decent. Cripes, we had Everett out there not too long ago. lol

Bobbo35
01-05-2006, 08:26 AM
You saw his arm in the WS. Almost cost us a game. (Pods had no chance of throwing that runner out; 90% of outfielders would have had the ball beat the player by 5 feet, with accuracy of the throw the only determinant of safe/out).
What's his range?

#2 put it well; we're downgrading with him in CF. Do we really want to do that? It's sort of reverting to our 2004 philosophy by doing that.

And frankly, not to open up another can of worms, I like Pods, but an improvement at lead-off may be an area that KW might want to upgrade next year. I say that knowing full well that Pods is the best lead-off hitter we've had since Raines (although Durham could have an argument). That's a reason why I'd like to keep some of these minor league outfielders.

I agree. His arm in left field last year was almost brutal to watch. Having him in center field would be detrimental.

The Deacon
01-05-2006, 08:48 AM
Does anyone have Wille Harris range factor in CF. I think he is still available to resign and can play both CF and 2B. He is fast and scored the winning run in game 4 of the WS. I love Willie and want to bear his children.

Willie Harris RF:
2003 1.41
2003 League Avg. - 2.44
2004 1.93
2004 L.A. - 2.35

In other words, Willie no good in CF.
I think all problems surrounding Willie are based on the double ear flap batting helmet. This ain't little league, Willie.

Tragg
01-05-2006, 08:52 AM
What's the scale of these numbers. GAGA - 1-100? The range factor - is the higher number better or lower?

The Deacon
01-05-2006, 09:10 AM
What's the scale of these numbers. GAGA - 1-100? The range factor - is the higher number better or lower?

The higher the better. The number represents the put-outs and assists a player has per game. The calculation is PO+A/G.

In 2003 as a CF Willie Harris had a 1.41 RF.
Torri Hunter had a 2.85.
The AL avg was 2.45

Ol' No. 2
01-05-2006, 09:28 AM
Over the course of a season, it equals out. Chance really isnt a factor.
Look it up. Of all the defender we consider 'excellent' they all consistently have the highest range factor. Ozzie Smith has the highest all-time of SS. Andruw Jones is excellent. Tori Hunter. It goes on and on.It doesn't equal out because there are structural biases. Some parks have bigger gaps or deeper walls. Some teams have more flyball pitchers. Players that are on those teams will have more OF chances. While it's true that over a large population the best defenders seem to have the highest range factors, you can also find very good defenders with mediocre RF. More importantly, the reverse proposition does not logically follow, i.e. high range factors do not denote the best defenders.

I have yet to see a defensive statistic that's worth a bucket of warm spit.

soxinem1
01-05-2006, 09:51 AM
It doesn't equal out because there are structural biases. Some parks have bigger gaps or deeper walls. Some teams have more flyball pitchers. Players that are on those teams will have more OF chances. While it's true that over a large population the best defenders seem to have the highest range factors, you can also find very good defenders with mediocre RF. More importantly, the reverse proposition does not logically follow, i.e. high range factors do not denote the best defenders.

I have yet to see a defensive statistic that's worth a bucket of warm spit.

I think the best way to judge a player is on what you see. Putouts are important for an OF, but not always a great indicator. You are correct, if you have a team with pitchers who throw lots of sinkers or give up a lot of hits, numbers tend to be different.

I remember in the 80's Harold Reynolds used to make a ton of errors every year, yet most pitchers loved having him out there. Why? Because he covered a lot of ground.

Conversely, I remember Royce Clayton and his Ryne Sandberg approach to playing the INF, play back far and don't dive! One, you keep the uniform clean, and two, you look good for the camera. That's why I cannot stand watching Ronnie Belliard, he is practically in RF, and they make it sound like he 'ranges back', yeah right!

Torii Hunter, Gary Pettis, Devon White, Ken Griffey, Jr, and Andruw Jones in my eyes, are among the best CF's I have ever seen. All those guys had me wonder quite a bit "how in the world did they get that"?

So if you find yourself saying that a lot when watchiing a player field his position, then you know you are seeing one of the best.

mccombe_35
01-05-2006, 11:24 AM
Conversely, I remember Royce Clayton and his Ryne Sandberg approach to playing the INF, play back far and don't dive! One, you keep the uniform clean, and two, you look good for the camera. That's why I cannot stand watching Ronnie Belliard, he is practically in RF, and they make it sound like he 'ranges back', yeah right!

Torii Hunter, Gary Pettis, Devon White, Ken Griffey, Jr, and Andruw Jones in my eyes, are among the best CF's I have ever seen. All those guys had me wonder quite a bit "how in the world did they get that".

I agree. & would like to add Kenny Lofton to the CF list.

Minnie Me
01-05-2006, 11:48 AM
I remember Ken Berry always falling over the short CF wall in old Comisk but in more recent times, always thought that Chet Lemon was darn good out there( had plus arm as well).

maurice
01-05-2006, 05:19 PM
CF traditionally has the weakest arm in the OF.

No, LF traditionally has the worst arm in the OF. It's not even close.

soxinem1
01-05-2006, 05:58 PM
No, LF traditionally has the worst arm in the OF. It's not even close.

True, left field is usually your weakest OF all-around defensively, RF has the best arm, and CF the best range. In that respect, we should feel fortunate to have Pods out there. He is definitely not GG caliber, and at least he can track down a few in the gaps. But.......

Funny how CLee was bad rapped for years but now a lot of posts in this thread are noting Pods weaknesses. I for one did not think CLee was all that bad, he dove in the stands and slid down the lines as good as anyone, and his arm was pretty decent. Not only that, he played the wall better than Pods, who reminds me a lot of Juan Pierre going up against the fences. For a guy who was a 3B coming up, he gets a lot of bad publicity. I remember those idiots Kevin Kennedy and Jeff Brantley before the 2003 season saying that CLee was the worst defensive OF in baseball.

ondafarm
01-05-2006, 06:22 PM
True, left field is usually your weakest OF all-around defensively, RF has the best arm, and CF the best range. In that respect, we should feel fortunate to have Pods out there. He is definitely not GG caliber, and at least he can track down a few in the gaps. But.......

Funny how CLee was bad rapped for years but now a lot of posts in this thread are noting Pods weaknesses. I for one did not think CLee was all that bad, he dove in the stands and slid down the lines as good as anyone, and his arm was pretty decent. Not only that, he played the wall better than Pods, who reminds me a lot of Juan Pierre going up against the fences. For a guy who was a 3B coming up, he gets a lot of bad publicity. I remember those idiots Kevin Kennedy and Jeff Brantley before the 2003 season saying that CLee was the worst defensive OF in baseball.

If you think that CLee was a good defensive outfielder then you really don't know much about baseball. He has no intuition about playing the field and all the times he made diving o sliding plays was mostly becuase he was caught out of position. Pods played the wall far better than CLee ever did.

soxinem1
01-05-2006, 07:31 PM
If you think that CLee was a good defensive outfielder then you really don't know much about baseball. He has no intuition about playing the field and all the times he made diving o sliding plays was mostly becuase he was caught out of position. Pods played the wall far better than CLee ever did.

First of all, I know plenty. You make it sound like CLee is a scrub and if you say he is/was, then you know nothing. Plus, I said in my opinion I did not think he was that bad. True, he made a lot of sliding plays, but I maintain he plays the walls better than Pods does. Pods is a natural OF, CLee was an INF. CLee also throws lightyears better than Pods.

Second, I noted the irony of some posters criticizing Pods defensive skills when he was supposed to be an upgrade over CLee.

In other words, don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.

But Pods fits the mold of this team better, so I am glad the trade has worked out as it has.

Daver
01-05-2006, 07:49 PM
First of all, I know plenty. You make it sound like CLee is a scrub and if you say he is/was, then you know nothing. Plus, I said in my opinion I did not think he was that bad. True, he made a lot of sliding plays, but I maintain he plays the walls better than Pods does. Pods is a natural OF, CLee was an INF. CLee also throws lightyears better than Pods.



El Vaco was a terrible outfielder.

When your approach to playing left field is playing every hitter at the warning track so that the only thing that can go over your head is a HR, while letting the infielders patrol short LF, it is obvious you have no clue how to play your position. You'll also play the wall better when you are never more than ten feet away from it.