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View Full Version : A Tribe Fans ThoughtsOn TheCentral Division.


mcreek
12-29-2001, 08:48 AM
I think the White Sox should be the favorites but they still have some growing pains to endure with their starting pitching. With Thomas coming back their lineup is pretty fierce but they still have problems catching the ball.

Like the Tribe they have a wealth of young arms but inexperienced.I give the edge to the Tribe in the rotation with Colon-Sabathia over their top two starters Buerhle-Ritchie. Bullpens are pretty even with a slight edge to Cleveland.

The big question with the two teams is the 3-5 starters. Jon Garland showed progress last year by posting an ERA of 3.69, Will Parque come back to his 2000 form? Daniel Wright-Jon Rauch are in the same boat as Clevelands Ryan Drese and Danys Baez, great arms but little experience though Baez was dominant as a set up man with three above average pitches, question is can he translate that stuff to the starting rotation. Drese has off the charts makeup and stuff but has never been able to pitch a full season until last season.

The Twinkies will not go away since they have the best rotation in the division but a shakey bullpen but they have great defense and team speed. Twins also will have their blue chip Starter Adam Johnson as a number four starter this serason, his stuff is filthy.
In any event i am not in the predicting business but I still believe Cleveland can still win this division if certain things fall in place. 1)CC Sabathia stepping up another level in his development2)Bartolo Colon maturing into a dominant number One starter from the get go

3)Danys Baez and Ryan Drese developing into solid major League starters as their talent and makeup suggest.

4) Bob Wickman pitching like he did last season, a healthy Paul Shuey and Ricardo Rincon. David Riske and Jerrod Riggan the pitcher aquired from NY as set up men for the entire season.If these dominoes fall in place Cleveland will win the division even without Alomar and JuanGone.

The Sox will score 900-1000 runs with Thomas healthy but still have to get better pitching from their 3-5 starters and get healthy set up arms to get to Foulke.

At any rate it is a toss up as to who wins this division but the naysayers believe the Tribe is finished but we shall see.---------------

Spiff
12-29-2001, 08:54 AM
Welcome to WSI maybe we can have a civil tribe fan to go along with our super-cool Cubs and Twins fans.

I don't necessarily agree with you in that post but I'll let it go. Welcome aboard! :gulp:

mcreek
12-29-2001, 09:02 AM
Thank you for your response. Some of the Sox fans probably remeber me from the old rivals board. This seems like a civil board where we can debate each other wich is refreshing to me instead of just talking to other Tribe fans.

longshot7
12-29-2001, 10:20 AM
yeah, I agree with your assesment of the twins' rotation - despite their inexperience, I think they gotta be the favorite.

ma-gaga
12-29-2001, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by longshot7
yeah, I agree with your assesment of the twins' rotation - despite their inexperience, I think they gotta be the favorite.

:)

If the Twins are still here. If the league doesn't shut down. If Selig pulls his head out of his ass. If they can sell the team to this Donald Watkins guy, and if he's not full of crap. If they can score some runs despite injuries/trades. If they can play 0.500+ ball against the Tribe. If they can continue to get lucky breaks against the Sox. If they can continue to dominate the other two AL Central teams.

A lot of if's. But the two Cleveland players that killed the Twins are gone. I think the division race really comes down to whether the Sox's offense can outperform the Twins pitching/defense. I have a hard time figuring out how Cleveland fits in. They don't have as good of pitching as Minny, and they don't have as good of an offense as Chicago. I get the feeling they'll finish 3rd, but only 3-5 games back. And a crapshoot between the Sox and Minny, depending on which team can win the season series...

CerberusWG
12-29-2001, 12:35 PM
We could end this Minnesota talk by blowing up the Baggie Dome. I don't think anyone would mind that, and I think C Lee would be extremely happy.

harwar
12-29-2001, 12:35 PM
[i]

The Twinkies will not go away since they have the best rotation in the division but a shakey bullpen but they have great defense and team speed. Twins also will have their blue chip Starter Adam Johnson as a number four starter this serason, his stuff is filthy.
[/B]
I couldn't agree more.With Brad Radke,Eric Milton,Joe Mays,Rick Reed,& Kyle Lohse coming on,i think the twinks are once again a dangerous team.I wish we had the speed,defense,&pitching the twins have.Also Latroy Hawkins(sometimes headcase)i believe will be more stable this year.At any rate,i don't see the tribe doing all that much this year,but i fear the Sox may not do much either if the bIG HURT is a royal pain in the teams side.

danman31
12-29-2001, 01:13 PM
For the most part I agree with you mcreek, but #2 on your list of reasons why the Tribe could win it will never happen. Colon isn't a good pitcher. Colon has a great fastball, but major league hitters catch up to even the best fastballs after a couple innings.

czalgosz
12-29-2001, 04:01 PM
It seems that every year the Sox go into the season with huge question marks in the rotation. A rotation of Buerhle, Ritchie, Parque, Garland, and Wright / Glover / Biddle has the potential to be very good, even excellent, but they can also be very bad. Buehrle I'm not too worried about, he doesn't strike me as a one-year wonder, but Ritchie is a gamble.

If Ritchie pitches like he did in '99, or in spots last season, he'll be a very nice addition to the club. I think that even in a worst-case scenario, he'll be a decent starter and help out our bullpen, which does get an awful lot of work.

:jerry

Why is everyone looking at me?

Parque is an obvious gamble coming off injury. If he pitches the way he did last season, it'll be a disaster. If he pitchies like he did in 2000, he'll be a very nice #3 guy.

I'm not as high on Jon Garland as some people on this board are. Admittedly, I haven't seen him pitch more than a couple times (living on the West Coast has its drawbacks) but he strikes me as the most likely candidate for the Scott Ruffcorn award for career minor-league dominance. Please tell me I'm wrong on this one, and he's a future all-star.

Wright might yet have a decent career ahead of him, if he can learn to throw strikes. Glover is a very nice pickup, and he'll fit in nicely either as the #5 guy or in the bullpen. I think he'll end up picking up where Sean Lowe left off.

Rocky Biddle looked very good at times, and very bad at times. I really don't know what to make of him. Check this out -

April - 3.86 ERA
May - 6.11 ERA
June - 2.91 ERA
July - 8.10 ERA
August - 5.00 ERA
September - 5.73 ERA

I guess it depends which Rocky Biddle shows up.

The bullpen is where there's uncharacteristic question marks.

If Osuna is anything close to healthy, he'll have to be on the club. I hope that he'll be able to do something, but probably not.

re-signing Foulke is the best move the Sox have made thus far this off-season. I think that there's nothing else to be said that hasn't been said about 1000 times...

Howry is a headache. I'm not going to say he doesn't belong on the team, but he got hit hard in 2001. Opponent's slugging went from .328 in 2000 (outstanding) to .459 in 2001 (not so much). I think he'll be able to bounce back, but I could be wrong on this one.

If Wunsch is healthy, he'll be fine, as long as he stays in the lefty specialist role.

I can't see this team taking less than 12 pitchers, especially considering the Sox will probably need another lefty in the pen.

Jerry_Manuel
12-29-2001, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Parque is an obvious gamble coming off injury. If he pitches the way he did last season, it'll be a disaster.

Rocky Biddle looked very good at times, and very bad at times. I really don't know what to make of him. Check this out -

April - 3.86 ERA
May - 6.11 ERA
June - 2.91 ERA
July - 8.10 ERA
August - 5.00 ERA
September - 5.73 ERA

I guess it depends which Rocky Biddle shows up.


Parque was hurt last season and pitched through the pain. So if we get the Parque of 2001 it means we'll get a guy with a torn labrum. Same with Biddle, we know he was pitching hurt but he didn't shut it down till late in the year.

Daver
12-29-2001, 04:32 PM
The problem with Parque is that even when healthy he is a 5-6 inning pitcher,which guarantees a lot of work for the bullpen.Parque is much better suited to being a long releiver IMO.

Biddle,when healthy, has good stuff and has shown flashes of being a good Major League pitcher that would benefit from a real pitching coach.Damn shame the Sox don't have one.

FarWestChicago
12-29-2001, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by daver
The problem with Parque is that even when healthy he is a 5-6 inning pitcher,which guarantees a lot of work for the bullpen.Parque is much better suited to being a long releiver IMO.I would also like to see Butter as a long man in the pen. I don't think he would agree with us, though. :smile:

czalgosz
12-29-2001, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by daver
The problem with Parque is that even when healthy he is a 5-6 inning pitcher,which guarantees a lot of work for the bullpen.Parque is much better suited to being a long releiver IMO.

Biddle,when healthy, has good stuff and has shown flashes of being a good Major League pitcher that would benefit from a real pitching coach.Damn shame the Sox don't have one.

Making Parque a reliever would solve a lot of problems for the Sox - it would open up two rotation spots for Biddle and Glover and Wright to fight over rather than one, and more importantly it would give the Sox a second lefty in the 'pen.

Here are current Sox lefthanders that have a realistic shot at making the team -

Buehrle
Parque
Wunsch
Masaoka

And that's it. Pretty sad, huh? If Wunsch is unable to pitch again, look out for another Embree to take up space in the pen.

czalgosz
12-29-2001, 04:50 PM
Sorry, I forgot about Vining in the above post.

Jerry_Manuel
12-29-2001, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Here are current Sox lefthanders that have a realistic shot at making the team -

Buehrle


I don't know about you Czal, but I don't want that Buehrle character on the team. :D:

czalgosz
12-29-2001, 04:58 PM
Well, you know I was just throwing his name out there...

Jerry_Manuel
12-29-2001, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Well, you know I was just throwing his name out there...

Yeah I know, it was a lame joke anyway.

doublem23
12-29-2001, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
I would also like to see Butter as a long man in the pen. I don't think he would agree with us, though. :smile:

There's material for his Scum-Times column.

Jerry_Manuel
12-29-2001, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
There's material for his Scum-Times column.

He doesn't write a column anymore.

doublem23
12-29-2001, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
He doesn't write a column anymore.

Really? Oh, well I don't read the Sun-Times, anyways.... What? Did the torn labrum sidelie Butter from the world of writing, too?

Jerry_Manuel
12-29-2001, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Really? Oh, well I don't read the Sun-Times, anyways.... What? Did the torn labrum sidelie Butter from the world of writing, too?

Manuel asked him to stop doing it if I am not mistaken.

SOXSINCE'70
12-29-2001, 06:15 PM
All of your points are very valid.I am looking forward to seeing Sabathia and Beuhrle in their sophmore campaigns.I say it's between the Sox,Tribe and Twinkies.It will be closwer than some think.But as a Sox fan,I guess you can guess who i'll be rooting for.Challenges lie ahead for both teams.See you at Comiskey.

:gulp:

kermittheefrog
12-29-2001, 06:33 PM
I think the division belongs to the Sox no contest. We're talking about a Tribe starting outfield that is likely to contain either Brady Anderson or Karim Garcia. For the Tribe to be for real they'll need Russ Branyan and Milton Bradley to fulfill their potential and Jim Thome to have another big year. Ricky Gutierrez will have to learn second base and Omar Vizquel has to prove he still has some gas left in the tank after a very weak season last year. Is it just me or is that a lot of ifs? Colon and Sabathia are great but it's silly to say Drese and Baez have talent comperable to the Sox best young arms. Steve Finley is done like dinner.

Kenny has screwed up in pretty much every way imaginable but he is fortunate enough to have barely any competition. The Twins are gonna fall off after their great year last year, that's just what happens to teams like that. Look at the Sox 2001 campaign. Plus there is the fact that there are maybe two Twins who are a solid bets to play 140 games with a good OBP. No matter how good that pitching staff is it won't matter if the offense can't score runs.

Jerry_Manuel
12-29-2001, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Is it just me or is that a lot of ifs?


Everyone one of the big 3 (Sox, Twins, and Tribe) have a ton of if's. The Sox are placing their season on 6 or 7 injured players coming back to their 2000 form.

Daver
12-29-2001, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Making Parque a reliever would solve a lot of problems for the Sox - it would open up two rotation spots for Biddle and Glover and Wright to fight over rather than one, and more importantly it would give the Sox a second lefty in the 'pen.

Here are current Sox lefthanders that have a realistic shot at making the team -

Buehrle
Parque
Wunsch
Masaoka

And that's it. Pretty sad, huh? If Wunsch is unable to pitch again, look out for another Embree to take up space in the pen.

I think Corwin Malone will get a long look in ST,he has put up some good numbers everywhere he has pitched,but it may be rushing him to bring him up now.

But then again what the hell do I know?

kermittheefrog
12-29-2001, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by daver


I think Corwin Malone will get a long look in ST,he has put up some good numbers everywhere he has pitched,but it may be rushing him to bring him up now.

But then again what the hell do I know?

I REALLY REALLY doubt Malone will get a serious look at the major league roster. He has barely even pitched in AA. The Sox didn't even give Buehrle a shot until he had 120 or so AA innings.

Daver
12-29-2001, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I REALLY REALLY doubt Malone will get a serious look at the major league roster. He has barely even pitched in AA. The Sox didn't even give Buehrle a shot until he had 120 or so AA innings.

They Buerlhe a shot out of neccesity,I was merely saying that the situation could be similar.
But then again what the hell do I know?

mcreek
12-29-2001, 07:34 PM
Ryan Drese is the real deal.




http://indians.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cle/news/cle_news_story.jsp?GXHC_gx_session_id_=cfb92c8fb7c f994d&article_id=cle_20011221_drese_news&team_id=cle

doublem23
12-29-2001, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Plus there is the fact that there are maybe two Twins who are a solid bets to play 140 games with a good OBP.

Kermit hit the nail on the head here... The Twins are still feeling the affects of the stupid Matt Lawton trade.

Now honestly, what the hell was that all about?

ihatethecubs
12-29-2001, 08:29 PM
just have to disagree with one thing, 2002 twins=suck

Jerry_Manuel
12-29-2001, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
The Twins are still feeling the affects of the stupid Matt Lawton trade.

Now honestly, what the hell was that all about?

Double imagine being a Red Sox fan. There still feeling the affects of that Babe Ruth deal.

Babe Ruth sold for cash, what the hell was that about? :D:

Paulwny
12-29-2001, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel

Babe Ruth sold for cash, what the hell was that about? :D:

I read where the owner of the bosox needed money for a stage production or an opera. Selling Ruth gave him the cash.

Daver
12-29-2001, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


I read where the owner of the bosox needed money for a stage production or an opera. Selling Ruth gave him the cash.

Yeah,NoNo Nanette was a flop in Boston and lost money,so much for the profit from that deal.

Paulwny
12-29-2001, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by daver


Yeah,NoNo Nanette was a flop in Boston and lost money,so much for the profit from that deal.

I wonder if the star happened to be his mistress, wouldn't be the first time

Jerry_Manuel
12-29-2001, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I read where the owner of the bosox needed money for a stage production or an opera. Selling Ruth gave him the cash.

That seems rather odd.

Jerry_Manuel
12-29-2001, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by daver
Yeah,NoNo Nanette was a flop in Boston and lost money,so much for the profit from that deal.


:tool
I told you we're losing money.

Daver
12-29-2001, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel



I told you we're losing money.

I have an accountant that can prove Bill Gates is losing money.

Jerry_Manuel
12-29-2001, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by daver
I have an accountant that can prove Bill Gates is losing money.

Can he prove that the Cubs are losing money on beer sales? :smile:

Daver
12-29-2001, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Can he prove that the Cubs are losing money on beer sales? :smile:

He could prove they are paying people to drink it.

:)

Jerry_Manuel
12-29-2001, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by daver
He could prove they are paying people to drink it.

:)


:clueless
No sir. I refuse to believe it.

kermittheefrog
12-30-2001, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny


I read where the owner of the bosox needed money for a stage production or an opera. Selling Ruth gave him the cash.

The BoSox owner at the time was stage producer first, baseball owner second. He sucked at being a producer so he sold off his star players to pay for his productions. Eventually he ran out of players and sold the team.