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doctor30th
12-29-2005, 10:44 AM
According to Contreras' agent who is quoted in the tribune they are looking for a 3 year deal worth 11-12 million per year.

the white sox are looking for less money and probably 2 years.

He's 34 (maybe) I can not see investing three guaranteed years in him. It's a shame that Garland shows so much appreciation and jose who should be thanking Don Cooper is asking for way to much money even in the current market. If it wasn't for the White sox, Ozzie, and Coop He would probably be a sub .500 pitcher.

Hitmen77
12-29-2005, 10:48 AM
Let the Jose Contreras bashing begin!

Maybe we should just repost all the Garland bashing posts from the last three weeks and just insert Jose's name where Jon's used to be.

skottyj242
12-29-2005, 10:51 AM
Bring on the inevitable Contreras appreciation threads.

kevin57
12-29-2005, 10:53 AM
I don't intend to bash Josť, but no way, no how...not with four now superior arms and one (BMac) more than ready.

peelwonder
12-29-2005, 10:55 AM
I don't intend to bash Josť, but no way, no how...not with four now superior arms and one (BMac) more than ready.

I agree...He had 1 good half and that's it....

Crede_Fan
12-29-2005, 10:56 AM
According to Contreras' agent who is quoted in the tribune they are looking for a 3 year deal worth 11-12 million per year.

the white sox are looking for less money and probably 2 years.

He's 34 (maybe) I can not see investing three guaranteed years in him. It's a shame that Garland shows so much appreciation and jose who should be thanking Don Cooper is asking for way to much money even in the current market. If it wasn't for the White sox, Ozzie, and Coop He would probably be a sub .500 pitcher.

And Garland's agent said Jon wanted to test the market next year. Don't believe anything until you see Jose sign a new contract or he is traded. Everything else is just the negotiation process.

JohnTucker0814
12-29-2005, 10:57 AM
The LevineLine stated on Silvy and Carmen earlier that the Phillies offered Abreu for Contreras.

Would you guys make this deal? He would be a great #3 hitter... left handed. Then your line-up is:

1. Podsednek CF (L)
2. Iguchi 2b (R)
3. Abreu LF (L)
4. Konerko 1B (R)
5. Thome DH (L)
6. Dye RF (R)
7. Pierzynski C (L)
8. Crede 3B (R)
9. Uribe SS (R)

The only bad thing would be Podsednek in CF... I don't like his defense in LF let alone CF.

spiffie
12-29-2005, 10:59 AM
The LevineLine stated on Silvy and Carmen earlier that the Phillies offered Abreu for Contreras.
Yes.

Let me think about this a minute.

Yes.

Hokiesox
12-29-2005, 11:00 AM
It's a shame that Garland shows so much appreciation

This is the part I'm most confused about. He signs a contract, makes some nice comments, and suddenly he's showing a lot of appreciation? :?:

mccoydp
12-29-2005, 11:01 AM
I'm in line with Kenny and the management in offering a two year deal versus a three year deal. I hate to say it, but Jose may be the pitcher to be dealt soon. I don't blame him for wanting more money, but he needs to realize budget the budget restrictions and reality as well.

GoGoSoxReborn
12-29-2005, 11:01 AM
Are you kidding Abreu for Contreras? In a heartbeat!

Flight #24
12-29-2005, 11:02 AM
The LevineLine stated on Silvy and Carmen earlier that the Phillies offered Abreu for Contreras.

Would you guys make this deal? He would be a great #3 hitter... left handed. Then your line-up is:

1. Podsednek CF (L)
2. Iguchi 2b (R)
3. Abreu LF (L)
4. Konerko 1B (R)
5. Thome DH (L)
6. Dye RF (R)
7. Pierzynski C (L)
8. Crede 3B (R)
9. Uribe SS (R)

The only bad thing would be Podsednek in CF... I don't like his defense in LF let alone CF.

You'd have to replace Dye with Abreu. And I despite the recent bumps, I don't think the Sox have the $$$ to do that long-term. Plus, you're trading your pitching insurance for more offense, which may not be the smartest thing given the WBC will have 3 Sox pitchers.

But from a sheer talent perspective, Swapping Contreras for McCarthy and Dye for Abreu is a net upgrade.

JohnTucker0814
12-29-2005, 11:02 AM
Abreu did make $13 MM last year... anyone have details on his contract status?

Dick Allen
12-29-2005, 11:06 AM
How old is Contreras really?

spiffie
12-29-2005, 11:08 AM
You'd have to replace Dye with Abreu. And I despite the recent bumps, I don't think the Sox have the $$$ to do that long-term. Plus, you're trading your pitching insurance for more offense, which may not be the smartest thing given the WBC will have 3 Sox pitchers.
The WBC will have 3 Sox pitchers all throwing about a maximum of 10-15 innings. I understand the concept of insurance (we saw the near-miss with MB last spring training) but people are throwing around the WBC like they are going to be working 120 pitch games twice a week for a month straight. The pitch count restrictions and relative shortness of everything ought to work out about as strenuous as spring training for them. If people feel like we need something to deal with it, I would say to sign some sort of long reliever who can work 3-4 starts over the course of the year to give guys a little extra rest. But to keep a sixth starter on the off-chance someone might get injured at the expense of an offensive upgrade seems like being overconcerned about the possibility.

Of course if on the 5th pitch of the WBC Freddy's arm falls off and goes flying over the backstop I will of course look like the biggest idiot on earth for this post :redface:

The Deacon
12-29-2005, 11:09 AM
The LevineLine stated on Silvy and Carmen earlier that the Phillies offered Abreu for Contreras.

Would you guys make this deal? He would be a great #3 hitter... left handed. Then your line-up is:

1. Podsednek CF (L)
2. Iguchi 2b (R)
3. Abreu LF (L)
4. Konerko 1B (R)
5. Thome DH (L)
6. Dye RF (R)
7. Pierzynski C (L)
8. Crede 3B (R)
9. Uribe SS (R)

The only bad thing would be Podsednek in CF... I don't like his defense in LF let alone CF.

Contreras for Abreu, straight up? I wouldnt blink. Thats why I dont believe it.

doctor30th
12-29-2005, 11:14 AM
How about Contreras for Rowand, Haigwood, and Gio.

I would do Abreu for contreras (with some cash our way to help out with abreu contract, I think he has 2 years left on his 64 million dollar 5 year deal.)

it would be nice if they threw in Aaron Fultz with Abreu for Contreras and like Munoz.

HotelWhiteSox
12-29-2005, 11:14 AM
Screw Abreu, I think he's overrated, if I'm trading Jose then I want an elite superstar. Jose has the best arm/stuff on the staff and now that he's figured it out, learned to work quicker, and has been going deeper into games, he's one of the best pitchers in the entire league. 15-7 with an ERA in the mid 3's with a horrible 1st half. I'd trade Freddy or Vazquez before I trade Jose

The Deacon
12-29-2005, 11:21 AM
Screw Abreu, I think he's overrated, if I'm trading Jose then I want an elite superstar.

Abreu - 30-30 guy. Career .306 hitter. Career OBP .411. 100 RBIS 4 of last 5 seasons. Plus a Gold Glove. I think this qualifies as elite superstar.
If Philly would be dumb enough to make this trade, I think we do it without hesitation.

gr8mexico
12-29-2005, 11:21 AM
Screw Abreu, I think he's overrated, if I'm trading Jose then I want an elite superstar. Jose has the best arm/stuff on the staff and now that he's figured it out, learned to work quicker, and has been going deeper into games, he's one of the best pitchers in the entire league. 15-7 with an ERA in the mid 3's with a horrible 1st half. I'd trade Freddy or Vazquez before I trade Jose What!!! You have to trade Contreras while his value is high. The guy is 34+ yrs old and might not have that much left. If you get Abreu your getting a superstar type player and If you get Abreu for Contreras it's a steal. Kenny we will be waiting for your responce next Wednesday.:bandance:

Jaffar
12-29-2005, 11:23 AM
I am really looking forward to january 4th! Come on Kenny!

Tekijawa
12-29-2005, 11:23 AM
I'd trade Contreras for Prospects... For Abreu I don't think I could contain myself! Too bad next Wednesday is so far away!

samram
12-29-2005, 11:28 AM
Screw Abreu, I think he's overrated, if I'm trading Jose then I want an elite superstar.

Well, then, you'll be keeping Jose.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-29-2005, 11:32 AM
You have to trade Contreras while his value is high. The guy is 34+ yrs old and might not have that much left.

No, we don't have to trade him. Who says his arm is wearing out? I think Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson did OK after they reached their mid-30s (and beyond). Power guys who learned how to pitch are good pitchers, period. If Contreras lost 1mph on his fastball, he'd still be throwing 94. That works well with his forkball.

Let's not dump Contreras yet. This thing still has plenty of time to play out, even with him still on the Sox at the start of spring training.

HotelWhiteSox
12-29-2005, 11:33 AM
What!!! You have to trade Contreras while his value is high. The guy is 34+ yrs old and might not have that much left. If you get Abreu your getting a superstar type player and If you get Abreu for Contreras it's a steal. Kenny we will be waiting for your responce next Wednesday.:bandance:

I think Abreu is good, but I hope people don't judge him off the HR Derby alone. Pods in center...errr no likey.

spawn
12-29-2005, 11:45 AM
How about Contreras for Rowand, Haigwood, and Gio.

:tealpolice:

Jjav829
12-29-2005, 11:50 AM
Screw Abreu, I think he's overrated, if I'm trading Jose then I want an elite superstar. Jose has the best arm/stuff on the staff and now that he's figured it out, learned to work quicker, and has been going deeper into games, he's one of the best pitchers in the entire league. 15-7 with an ERA in the mid 3's with a horrible 1st half. I'd trade Freddy or Vazquez before I trade Jose

First off, Abreu isn't overrated.

Second, you're not getting any more of an elite superstar for Jose Contreras. He's had one good half of a season. No team is giving up an elite superstar. If Levine is correct about the Phillies offering Abreu, I'd be shocked. That's a lot more than Contreras is worth. I would do that deal and then turn around and trade Abreu. The O's supposedly want a superstar player in return for Tejada. Maybe they would have interest in doing something like Abreu and Uribe for Tejada. They would probably want a pitcher in return, though.

TheOldRoman
12-29-2005, 12:35 PM
The LevineLine stated on Silvy and Carmen earlier that the Phillies offered Abreu for Contreras.

Would you guys make this deal? He would be a great #3 hitter... left handed. Then your line-up is:

1. Podsednek CF (L)
2. Iguchi 2b (R)
3. Abreu LF (L)
4. Konerko 1B (R)
5. Thome DH (L)
6. Dye RF (R)
7. Pierzynski C (L)
8. Crede 3B (R)
9. Uribe SS (R)

The only bad thing would be Podsednek in CF... I don't like his defense in LF let alone CF.
:o:

It is PodsednIk, and I never want to see him in center, but I would do that deal in a heartbeat.

SOXSINCE'70
12-29-2005, 12:39 PM
How about Contreras for Rowand, Haigwood, and Gio.


A primer for the computer illiterate.Don't feel bad.
I was one myself 5 years ago.Being color blind,I still have
trouble with certain shades of colors.

:tealtutor: :tealpolice:
"1 Adam-12,1 Adam-12,a violation.See the man."

Hitmen77
12-29-2005, 12:58 PM
I'd trade Contreras for Prospects... For Abreu I don't think I could contain myself! Too bad next Wednesday is so far away!

Why are people here interested in trading away an outstanding starter for prospects?

Are we trying to win the World Series again in 2006? Or are we happy with downgrading (from where we are right now) for 2006 and just trying to rebuild for the future?

BainesHOF
12-29-2005, 01:02 PM
Contreras is our best pitcher. A team seldom improves by getting rid of its best pitcher.

soxtalker
12-29-2005, 01:29 PM
Contreras is our best pitcher. A team seldom improves by getting rid of its best pitcher.

Well it has happened before. Wasn't Hoyt our best pitcher in '83? The Sox traded him for their SS (and manager) of the future.

gf2020
12-29-2005, 01:40 PM
Contreras is our best pitcher. A team seldom improves by getting rid of its best pitcher.
Did Mark Buehrle change his name to Contreras this off-season or something? I must have missed the "Mark Buehrle Legally Changes His Last Name to match that of someone who had one really good half of season Appreciation Thread."
Yeah, I know, it's not as clever as I thought it would be when I started out, but I stand by my sarcasm.

hi im skot
12-29-2005, 01:46 PM
Did Mark Buehrle change his name to Contreras this off-season or something? I must have missed the "Mark Buehrle Legally Changes His Last Name to match that of someone who had one really good half of season Appreciation Thread."
Yeah, I know, it's not as clever as I thought it would be when I started out, but I stand by my sarcasm.

agreed.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-29-2005, 01:47 PM
Why are people here interested in trading away an outstanding starter for prospects?

Are we trying to win the World Series again in 2006? Or are we happy with downgrading (from where we are right now) for 2006 and just trying to rebuild for the future?

How did KW lure Jim Thome away from the Phillies? It wasn't just Rowand, it was also two.... PROSPECTS!

How did KW acquire Carl Everett, twice, and Roberto Alomar the 2 and 3 years ago? PROSPECTS!

How did we pick up Vazquez? Mainly because of a great PROSPECT.

We need the prospects to plant down in our minor league system that has been seeing it's top players leaving and nothing coming back in.

I'd still rather do Bobby Abreu for Contreras and this trade makes a lot of sense. Ozzie Guillen loves Abreu and Abreu is from where? VENEZUELA! Hey Hey! I see Abreu as the new and improved # 2 hitter that Ozzie promised us. All along I've been asking for Bobby in return for whatever pitcher we trade. Don't stop now KDub!

beckett21
12-29-2005, 01:53 PM
I'm as big a Contreras fan as anyone here, but if Abreu is really on the table for him that is just about a no-brainer. Financials notwithstanding, of course.

I'd love for the Sox to keep Jose and go into next season with 6 starters, and I certainly don't want to trade him for some bullpen re-tread. But Abreu is a bona fide talent. It would be very hard for me to scoff at that offer.

TheOldRoman
12-29-2005, 01:56 PM
How did KW lure Jim Thome away from the Phillies? It wasn't just Rowand, it was also two.... PROSPECTS!

How did KW acquire Carl Everett, twice, and Roberto Alomar the 2 and 3 years ago? PROSPECTS!

How did we pick up Vazquez? Mainly because of a great PROSPECT.

We need the prospects to plant down in our minor league system that has been seeing it's top players leaving and nothing coming back in.

I'd still rather do Bobby Abreu for Contreras and this trade makes a lot of sense. Ozzie Guillen loves Abreu and Abreu is from where? VENEZUELA! Hey Hey! I see Abreu as the new and improved # 2 hitter that Ozzie promised us. All along I've been asking for Bobby in return for whatever pitcher we trade. Don't stop now KDub!
You are the only person I have ever seen suggest that Abreu could be a 2 hitter. He is a #3 hitter, and he always has been. I don't know that he would be able to sacrifice himself enough to be a sucessful #2, and he shouldn't have to. If we got Abreu, he would be our #3 hitter, without a doubt. That would put Koneko at 4 and Thome at five, which means our lineup goes from good to insanely good. I would love to have Abreu on the team, but I don't see this happening. I think Levineline is just making up crap to get his name in the headlines again.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-29-2005, 01:56 PM
How old is Contreras really?

He's been around, to quote Dan Folgelberg, longer than there've been fishes in the ocean.

Fake Chet Lemon
12-29-2005, 01:58 PM
Contreras is our best pitcher. A team seldom improves by getting rid of its best pitcher.


Promise if Jose walks after 2006 and we get NOTHING you won't complain :smile: ? You do make a good point though, I'm on the fence. Then again, Abreu vs nothing......OK I'll take Abreu!

soxinem1
12-29-2005, 02:31 PM
The LevineLine stated on Silvy and Carmen earlier that the Phillies offered Abreu for Contreras.

Would you guys make this deal? He would be a great #3 hitter... left handed.

The only bad thing would be Podsednek in CF... I don't like his defense in LF let alone CF.

I'd rather have Burnett, Pettite, or Millwood if that's the price tag. 3/36, no way! Not for a guy with 1/2 of a good season.

Abreu sounds good, but he's very streaky with a ton of K's like Thome. Between PK, Pods, Thome, Uribe, Iguchi, and Dye your talking about 700K's, Bobby adds another 120-130. he would add back some lost speed, however.

But his total shut down in the second half is not encouraging, esecially when his team was in the race all year.

Hitmen77
12-29-2005, 02:41 PM
How did KW lure Jim Thome away from the Phillies? It wasn't just Rowand, it was also two.... PROSPECTS!

How did KW acquire Carl Everett, twice, and Roberto Alomar the 2 and 3 years ago? PROSPECTS!

How did we pick up Vazquez? Mainly because of a great PROSPECT.

We need the prospects to plant down in our minor league system that has been seeing it's top players leaving and nothing coming back in.

I'd still rather do Bobby Abreu for Contreras and this trade makes a lot of sense. Ozzie Guillen loves Abreu and Abreu is from where? VENEZUELA! Hey Hey! I see Abreu as the new and improved # 2 hitter that Ozzie promised us. All along I've been asking for Bobby in return for whatever pitcher we trade. Don't stop now KDub!

I guess I don't see the connection between us acquiring these players using prospects and the idea of trading JC now for only prospects. Trading good players for only prospects is something small market teams and out-of-contention teams do.

However, if we can get an established quality starting major leaguer AND prospects for Contreras, then such a deal might make sense. But, I was replying to the suggestion that we dump JC for only prospects.

Hitmen77
12-29-2005, 02:48 PM
Promise if Jose walks after 2006 and we get NOTHING you won't complain :smile: ? You do make a good point though, I'm on the fence. Then again, Abreu vs nothing......OK I'll take Abreu!

Yes, like KW said yesterday, if the Sox get an overwhelming offer, they could trade JC - and I agree with that.

But, assuming for the moment that no one is going to give us a great deal for JC (such as Abreu or Tejada), then I think the risk of JC walking at the end of '06 is worth it for the chance to win a 2nd straight World Series.

I don't think this approach was quite as palatible when JG was unsigned after '06 because then the Sox would run the risk of losing TWO starting pitchers for nothing - which would be to hard of a hit to take. But, that's the genius of KW's move to sign one of those pitchers!!! Now he's got the Sox in a position where even if JC walks after '06, we've got 5 starting pitchers locked up for '07.

chaerulez
12-29-2005, 03:31 PM
The LevineLine stated on Silvy and Carmen earlier that the Phillies offered Abreu for Contreras.

Would you guys make this deal? He would be a great #3 hitter... left handed. Then your line-up is:

1. Podsednek CF (L)
2. Iguchi 2b (R)
3. Abreu LF (L)
4. Konerko 1B (R)
5. Thome DH (L)
6. Dye RF (R)
7. Pierzynski C (L)
8. Crede 3B (R)
9. Uribe SS (R)

The only bad thing would be Podsednek in CF... I don't like his defense in LF let alone CF.

I honestly can't believe that to be true. Abreu who has a good bat, defense, and even speed for a pitcher that's had 1 good half a season?

White Sox Randy
12-29-2005, 03:32 PM
I like having the starting pitching depth. However, if we could really get Abreu for Contreras, the only thing holding that deal back would have to be....dollars.

I would love to see that - but as others have stated that hurts us in center. Maybe not that much. Dye or Abreu goes to left and we have Anderson as a defensive replacement in center. That is also a good way to break him in.

I would do the deal if Philly throws in 3 mil. a year. We need the money because we still need a veteran lefty reliever.

soxfan1983
12-29-2005, 03:33 PM
The LevineLine stated on Silvy and Carmen earlier that the Phillies offered Abreu for Contreras.

Would you guys make this deal? He would be a great #3 hitter... left handed. Then your line-up is:

1. Podsednek CF (L)
2. Iguchi 2b (R)
3. Abreu LF (L)
4. Konerko 1B (R)
5. Thome DH (L)
6. Dye RF (R)
7. Pierzynski C (L)
8. Crede 3B (R)
9. Uribe SS (R)

The only bad thing would be Podsednek in CF... I don't like his defense in LF let alone CF.


that would be awesome... holy cow.

BringBackBlkJack
12-29-2005, 03:35 PM
I dont understand why people are making a big fuss about the possibility of Podsednik playing CF... He was a CF in Milwaukee and had to change positions when he came here because of Rowand. The Brewers must have had him in CF for a reason, I'm guessing he plays center better than right or left field. From my point of view, moving him back to center wouldn't harm anything at all.

BainesHOF
12-29-2005, 03:38 PM
My point of course is to re-sign Contreras.

And, yes, he's our best pitcher. There's a reason why he was our No. 1 starter in the playoffs. Nothing has changed since.

I've become a big fan of Buehrle. Has he been a good pitcher longer than Contreras? Yes. Is he a bigger fan favorite than Contreras? Yes. Is he more of a team leader than Contreras? Yes.

Is Buehrle a better pitcher than Contreras right now? No.

Jjav829
12-29-2005, 03:38 PM
Contreras is our best pitcher. A team seldom improves by getting rid of its best pitcher.
Hmm...so you either didn't read my other post, or you didn't understand it. Let me put it a different way.

:burly
"Hi, my name is Mark Buehrle. I pitch for the Chicago White Sox. Perhaps you have heard of me or seen me pitch. Here are my career numbers:

2001: 16-8, 3.29 ERA, 221.1 innings
2002: 19-12, 3.58 ERA, 239 innings
2003: 14-14, 4,14 ERA, 230.1 innings
2004: 16-10, 3.89 ERA, 245.1 innings
2005: 16-8, 3.12 ERA, 237.2 innings

Pretty good, huh?

Now look at these numbers.

2003: 7-2, 3.30 ERA, 71 innings
2004: 13-9, 5.50 ERA, 170.1 innings
2005: 15-7, 3.61 ERA, 205.2 innings

Not so good, right? Well, guess what. Those second numbers belong to my teammate Jose Contreras. He isn't as good as me. Please don't insult me by saying that he is a better pitcher than me. When he puts together 5 season in a row like I have, then you can mention him in the same sentence as me. Until then, I am the ace of this staff and far and away the best pitcher."

Norberto7
12-29-2005, 03:56 PM
Here's my thought on this: Bobby Abreu.

palehozenychicty
12-29-2005, 04:08 PM
Hmm...so you either didn't read my other post, or you didn't understand it. Let me put it a different way.

:burly
"Hi, my name is Mark Buehrle. I pitch for the Chicago White Sox. Perhaps you have heard of me or seen me pitch. Here are my career numbers:

2001: 16-8, 3.29 ERA, 221.1 innings
2002: 19-12, 3.58 ERA, 239 innings
2003: 14-14, 4,14 ERA, 230.1 innings
2004: 16-10, 3.89 ERA, 245.1 innings
2005: 16-8, 3.12 ERA, 237.2 innings

Pretty good, huh?

Now look at these numbers.

2003: 7-2, 3.30 ERA, 71 innings
2004: 13-9, 5.50 ERA, 170.1 innings
2005: 15-7, 3.61 ERA, 205.2 innings

Not so good, right? Well, guess what. Those second numbers belong to my teammate Jose Contreras. He isn't as good as me. Please don't insult me by saying that he is a better pitcher than me. When he puts together 5 season in a row like I have, then you can mention him in the same sentence as me. Until then, I am the ace of this staff and far and away the best pitcher."


Yet another voice of intelligent reasoning on WSI.

MERPER
12-29-2005, 04:29 PM
Please don't bash Contreras... understand that he is old and this is probably the last contract he will be signing in MLB... he had one good half of a season and just like us, he doesn't know if he will maintain that success or not...

A monster contract for him means that he can struggle again and still be paid.. it's his last chance to really cash in

Bottom line is that if he hadn't turned the corner during the second half last season and become the most dominant pitcher in the AL, the Sox wouldn't have been in the PLAYOFFS let alone won the WORLD SERIES...

I respect his wishes to sign a monster deal, and I respect the Sox for not wanting to give it to him... if we have seen the last of Jose in a Sox uniform

THANKS FOR FINDING YOURSELF FROM AUGUST-OCTOBER 2005!!!

soxinem1
12-29-2005, 04:31 PM
He's been around, to quote Dan Folgelberg, longer than there've been fishes in the ocean.

Dan Fogelberg is very sick, he may not be around much longer... FYI

soxinem1
12-29-2005, 04:38 PM
Hmm...so you either didn't read my other post, or you didn't understand it. Let me put it a different way.

:burly
"Hi, my name is Mark Buehrle. I pitch for the Chicago White Sox. Perhaps you have heard of me or seen me pitch. Here are my career numbers:

2001: 16-8, 3.29 ERA, 221.1 innings
2002: 19-12, 3.58 ERA, 239 innings
2003: 14-14, 4,14 ERA, 230.1 innings
2004: 16-10, 3.89 ERA, 245.1 innings
2005: 16-8, 3.12 ERA, 237.2 innings

Pretty good, huh?

Now look at these numbers.

2003: 7-2, 3.30 ERA, 71 innings
2004: 13-9, 5.50 ERA, 170.1 innings
2005: 15-7, 3.61 ERA, 205.2 innings

Not so good, right? Well, guess what. Those second numbers belong to my teammate Jose Contreras. He isn't as good as me. Please don't insult me by saying that he is a better pitcher than me. When he puts together 5 season in a row like I have, then you can mention him in the same sentence as me. Until then, I am the ace of this staff and far and away the best pitcher."

$36 million for a guy with 35 career wins? Yeah, and he can go take a hike! His demands almost justify reason for Millwood's and Burnett's deals. MB is the tops on this team.

TheOldRoman
12-29-2005, 04:53 PM
His demands almost justify reason for Millwood's and Burnett's deals. MB is the tops on this team. That is absolute bull****. Contreras always had loads of potential. What he did from July on was not a fluke. He finally learned to trust his stuff and locate. He dominated at the highest level for the last three months of the season. He changed the way he pitched, he didn't miraculously find a pitch he had never thrown before (Loaiza) or inexplicably find 5 more MPH on his fastball. He dominated with the same stuff he always had.
Burnett has NEVER dominated except for a few starts here and there (he walked 8 in his no hitter). Millwood's deal was set up because of Burnett's. If AJ didn't get the deal he did, Millwood would have gotten a lot less, too. If Jose does resign with the Sox, it won't be too far off from his asking price. They would likely give him 2 years at 9-10 million a year, with a team option for a third year. I agree you can't give him a guaranteed third year, but what you said is absolute BS. Contreras is a much greater pitcher than Burnett.

DickAllen72
12-29-2005, 05:11 PM
I'd offer Contreras a 2 year extension at $11M per year, and I'll bet he would take it.

If he refused, and the Phillies really would give Abreu for Jose even up, I would do it.

SOXSINCE'70
12-29-2005, 05:30 PM
Well it has happened before. Wasn't Hoyt our best pitcher in '83? The Sox traded him for their SS (and manager) of the future.

But that trade took place after the '84 season.
And LaMarr Hoyt had an off year in '84
(so did the entire White Sox team,sadly.Injuries caught
up to them,IIRC.I could have sworn they were in 1st in
the AL West as late as May).

veeter
12-29-2005, 06:12 PM
Contreras is signed for 2006, right? We've got him for this run at the title. Try to sign him all year long. If he doesn't sign, let him walk and get compensated a very high pick. I don't trade him while this window is open.

soxinem1
12-29-2005, 06:12 PM
That is absolute bull****. Contreras always had loads of potential. What he did from July on was not a fluke. He finally learned to trust his stuff and locate. He dominated at the highest level for the last three months of the season. He changed the way he pitched, he didn't miraculously find a pitch he had never thrown before (Loaiza) or inexplicably find 5 more MPH on his fastball. He dominated with the same stuff he always had.
Burnett has NEVER dominated except for a few starts here and there (he walked 8 in his no hitter). Millwood's deal was set up because of Burnett's. If AJ didn't get the deal he did, Millwood would have gotten a lot less, too. If Jose does resign with the Sox, it won't be too far off from his asking price. They would likely give him 2 years at 9-10 million a year, with a team option for a third year. I agree you can't give him a guaranteed third year, but what you said is absolute BS. Contreras is a much greater pitcher than Burnett.

I reinterated that MB is the ace, and JC is not, and does not deserve 36 million for 35 career wins and a solid three months of a season. That is insane. At least Burnett and Millwood were around for awhile, and though I'm not big fan of AJ, he has had many better games than JC, sorry that does not hold water.

MB deserves more than JC any day, and is better anyday.

soxinem1
12-29-2005, 06:13 PM
Contreras is signed for 2006, right? We've got him for this run at the title. Try to sign him all year long. If he doesn't sign, let him walk and get compensated a very high pick. I don't trade him while this window is open.

He needs six years to be a FA, unless they non-tender him.

soxtalker
12-29-2005, 06:13 PM
But that trade took place after the '84 season.
And LaMarr Hoyt had an off year in '84
(so did the entire White Sox team,sadly.Injuries caught
up to them,IIRC.I could have sworn they were in 1st in
the AL West as late as May).

You are correct. (I've been a fan since about '60, and I should have remembered that.) That does change things. There was criticism at the time from Sox fans, but there would have been much, much more if it had been the year after they won the division.

veeter
12-29-2005, 06:14 PM
Please don't bash Contreras... understand that he is old and this is probably the last contract he will be signing in MLB... he had one good half of a season and just like us, he doesn't know if he will maintain that success or not...

A monster contract for him means that he can struggle again and still be paid.. it's his last chance to really cash in

Bottom line is that if he hadn't turned the corner during the second half last season and become the most dominant pitcher in the AL, the Sox wouldn't have been in the PLAYOFFS let alone won the WORLD SERIES...

I respect his wishes to sign a monster deal, and I respect the Sox for not wanting to give it to him... if we have seen the last of Jose in a Sox uniform

THANKS FOR FINDING YOURSELF FROM AUGUST-OCTOBER 2005!!!This is very well said. It's also right on.

MasQbellesa
12-29-2005, 06:17 PM
Do you think Contreras will come in to 2006 with the same confidence he "found" the 2nd half of 2005 knowing he couldn't come to an agreement now?

TaylorStSox
12-29-2005, 06:34 PM
First, Mark is our most consistant pitcher. Contreras is our best pitcher. If it was down to 1 game, I'm running Jose out there each and every time.

His age doesn't bother me. He's got a rubber arm. He's in better shape than any of our other pitchers. He doesn't have a history of arm trouble. He wasn't coddled in Cuba. He's a good example of a who's developed arm strength because he's thrown the ball alot. There's a precedence for power pitchers, who keep themselves in top shape, to pitch into their 40's.

With that said, I'm not sure that I'd give him 3/36. The length doesn't bother me. It's the price. Hypothetically, if we did extend him, Garcia would be the odd man out IMO. Also, I believe he's the most likely to go down with an injury based on last year's workload.

gr8mexico
12-29-2005, 06:59 PM
If the Sox really want to sign a player for that much money why not wait and get 1 of the studs available next year. Next year the Sox can look at guys alot younger then Contreras like Mark Mulder. The Sox should trade Contreras and sign Wade Miller for insurance.

dickallen15
12-29-2005, 07:03 PM
If the Sox really want to sign a player for that much money why not wait and get 1 of the studs available next year. Next year the Sox can look at guys alot younger then Contreras like Mark Mulder. The Sox should trade Contreras and sign Wade Miller for insurance.

What kind of insurance would Wade Miller provide? If that's insurance, they could sign me for a lot less.

The Racehorse
12-29-2005, 07:09 PM
If this wasn't an internet message board and someone mentioned the name Wade Miller, my first reaction would be... "who's Wade Miller?"

Daver
12-29-2005, 07:15 PM
He needs six years to be a FA, unless they non-tender him.

You're wrong on that, he signed as a MLB FA, and after 2006 will again be an MLB FA.

Optipessimism
12-29-2005, 07:30 PM
How about 3/30 and a big thank you to the Sox organization for getting him out of NY, giving his family a stable place to stay, helping him fix his problems, and putting a team around him that he can win with.

Or is that too much to ask?

vafan
12-29-2005, 07:44 PM
My point of course is to re-sign Contreras.

And, yes, he's our best pitcher. There's a reason why he was our No. 1 starter in the playoffs. Nothing has changed since.

I've become a big fan of Buehrle. Has he been a good pitcher longer than Contreras? Yes. Is he a bigger fan favorite than Contreras? Yes. Is he more of a team leader than Contreras? Yes.

Is Buehrle a better pitcher than Contreras right now? No.

I totally agree with you BainesHOF. (And yes, I'm the same Vafan from the main White Sox site. Good to see you over here.)

Contreras is a horse, as I said on my other post. All of his pitches are better than Buehrle's. The only thing holding Jose back was having confidence against major leaguers (having made the jump from Cuba) and being able to locate his pitches. Once he stopped walking batters, he became a fair match for just about any pitcher in baseball. And I would expect four or five more years of that, unless he gets hurt (and he doesn't strike me as a guy likely to get hurt).

vafan
12-29-2005, 07:46 PM
If the Sox really want to sign a player for that much money why not wait and get 1 of the studs available next year. Next year the Sox can look at guys alot younger then Contreras like Mark Mulder. The Sox should trade Contreras and sign Wade Miller for insurance.

Did you see Houston just destroy Mulder in the clinching game of the NLCS?? He just gave up. Give me Jose every day over that turkey.

vafan
12-29-2005, 08:01 PM
Is there any way Contreras doesn't sign with us, after he found a home here in Chicago, with Ozzie as his manager and Coop as his pitching coach? Somehow I think the Sox and Jose will find a way to get it done.

And to my way of thinking, the guy to trade would then be Vazquez. You don't even have to trade him now. It would be better to make a deal near the trade deadline, after Cooper has had a chance to work with him to find his old form. He'd still be locked up for 2-1/2 years by his new team, so he'd have full value. And by then you would have had a much better look at Brandon McCarthy.

gr8mexico
12-29-2005, 08:07 PM
Did you see Houston just destroy Mulder in the clinching game of the NLCS?? He just gave up. Give me Jose every day over that turkey. You would rather have a guy that's maybe 34yrs old or Mark Mulder 28yrs old for sure 6'6" Left hander from Illinois with 97w's 50L's ERA 3.87 25 CG wow kind of reminds me of the left hander we have.

Tragg
12-29-2005, 08:08 PM
There's no way we can afford 5 high priced pitchers for very long and keep a well-rounded team. Contreras signs for $36 and it's bye bye MB or maybe FG. I would have been fine letting Garland go, but now it looks like Jose - so be it.
On the other hand, if we can sign Jose and Garland and MB, why did we trade for Vasquez? Well, no use going down that road again.
I like McCarthy. I like the way he throws, and I loved the way he had the BoSox eating bullets in that clutch labor day performance in an important game (and in other games). It's time to give him his chance.

As for prospects, Young is the only creme de la creme prospect we've traded (Reed was a top prospect, but Young was the top). It's too bad we lost young, but we haven't traded that many, really

jabrch
12-29-2005, 08:13 PM
If he wants 3 years @ 12mm per, he is welcome to try to get that in FA. With Garland just extending two years, I don't see why KW would extend Contreras. Buehrle has one more year, and Freddy is up after him. Contreras' age is a question. He had a great post season, and a great second half - but he's probably not going to get 3/36 from the Sox. So if we get Abreu for him - GREAT. If we keep him until the deadline and get top prospects for him - GREAT. If we keep him, and win the World Series again, and we get 2 draft picks for him - GREAT. It's a no-lose situation for us.

Not bashing Jose at all - just saying I wouldn't extend him 3/36 given our roster as it stands now. And that if Bobby Abreu is an option, I'd take him in a heartbeat.

jehosaphat
12-29-2005, 09:23 PM
Not bashing Jose at all - just saying I wouldn't extend him 3/36 given our roster as it stands now. And that if Bobby Abreu is an option, I'd take him in a heartbeat.[/quote]

If Jose is as good for the next 3 years as he was the 2nd half of the 2005 season, he's worth it. But, that is a big "if". Although it seems within the realm of possibilities that Jose will continue his dominance, it is worth remembering that Loaiza had just as good as good of a half of season and man o man, I'm sure glad we didn't sign him for 36 million! I like Jose as much as the next Sox fan, but 30 million for 3 years seems more like it. Hopefully the Sox and Jose can get together.

soxwon
12-29-2005, 10:31 PM
see ya jose.

The Deacon
12-29-2005, 10:49 PM
If Jose is as good for the next 3 years as he was the 2nd half of the 2005 season, he's worth it. But, that is a big "if". Although it seems within the realm of possibilities that Jose will continue his dominance, it is worth remembering that Loaiza had just as good as good of a half of season and man o man, I'm sure glad we didn't sign him for 36 million! I like Jose as much as the next Sox fan, but 30 million for 3 years seems more like it. Hopefully the Sox and Jose can get together.

I think Jose is worth 3/30 too. I think the major issue at this point is which pitchers do we keep and who do we get rid of. If we do sign Contreras for 3/30, I wouldnt mind it at all. But if we do sign him, something has to give; one of our starters can't stay. We won't be able to afford it and McCarthy has to get his shot at some point. The question is which pitcher will it be? We can't keep our 5 stud SPs at 8-10 million each and let McCarthy toil away in the pen until 2008.
If we do resign Contreras, my guess is one of of other pitchers will be gone shortly after. If I had to guess 2, it would be Sweaty Freddy or Garland.

StillMissOzzie
12-30-2005, 01:01 AM
IIRC, Jose is now 34. He's under contract for 2006, and by season's end or shortly threreafter, he'll be 35. There's no way I'm offering 3 years if I'm KW, maybe 2 yrs/$23M. Otherwise, it's see ya around and thanks for the memories, Jose.

Damon wanted 7 years and didn't get it. Jose wants 3 more years, AFTER the 2006 season. If someone else will offer it, more power to them, but I don't think it should be the White Sox.

SMO
:gulp:

TheOldRoman
12-30-2005, 01:04 AM
You would rather have a guy that's maybe 34yrs old or Mark Mulder 28yrs old for sure 6'6" Left hander from Illinois with 97w's 50L's ERA 3.87 25 CG wow kind of reminds me of the left hander we have.
Look at that way Mulder has pitched the last couple of years. He is not the ace he once was. I love Mulder, but something isn't right.

TheOldRoman
12-30-2005, 01:16 AM
I reinterated that MB is the ace, and JC is not, and does not deserve 36 million for 35 career wins and a solid three months of a season. That is insane. At least Burnett and Millwood were around for awhile, and though I'm not big fan of AJ, he has had many better games than JC, sorry that does not hold water.

MB deserves more than JC any day, and is better anyday.
I agree that Buehrle is our ace. He will start every opening day as long as he is with the Sox. That has nothing to do with Jose. 35 career wins means nothing. It makes no difference whether he has 35 or 135. All that number means is that he hasn't been in the league that long.

If you watched Jose for the last year and a half, you would realize that he always had electric stuff. He dominated from time to time, but he had a huge problem with walks. He finally listened to Coop, used his fastball more, changed his arm angle, and cut down on the walks. Once he did that, he became one of the best pitchers in baseball. He didn't find lighting in a bottle, he just learned to trust his stuff and dominate at the major league level. Jose has dominated every level he has ever played at. He dominated Cuban baseball, international baseball, and has now learned to dominate in the MLB. What else does he have to prove?

What the hell does it matter how long a player has been around? Is MLB experience more important than skill? Your arguement is horrible. Burnett is not a better pitcher than Contreras. Not even close. Burnett has not shown he can be great for more than a game here and there. Contreras was great from August on. He carried us into the playoffs (we wouldn't have been there without him), and he carried us to a championship. But Burnett is somehow better than him because he pitched a few more years in the majors and he has a no hitter to his credit?:kukoo:

getonbckthr
12-30-2005, 01:33 AM
After reading the article about the payroll at whitesox.com I really don't feel that JR gave Kenny a budget. Its almost like he told Kenny get me another title with a reasonable salary. My question is what is reasonable? Can they afford to add Tejada or Abreu? Would Carl Crawford be considered an option? Also i'm not familiar with where our talent is in the minors as far as developement. Do we have any pitchers that could be MLB ready for late 06 or the 07 season? If so, if we resign Jose to a 2-3 yr deal would we be ok dealing Bmac then? Also where are Fields and Rogowski at as far as devleopment? Is Rogowski dealable now that we have Paulie and Thome long-term? Is Crede expendable cause Fields is ready or are we still waiting on Fields? These questions are important as to where Kenny looks when it comes to moves.

soxfanreggie
12-30-2005, 01:46 AM
3 years, $36...he could probably get it somewhere, but I hope not here.

BainesHOF
12-30-2005, 02:01 AM
:burly
"Hi, my name is Mark Buehrle....my teammate Jose Contreras. He isn't as good as me."

If Contreras isn't our best pitcher, then please explain why Contreras started Game 1 of the ALDS, Game 1 of the ALCS and Game 1 of the World Series.

Jjav829
12-30-2005, 02:03 AM
If Contreras isn't our best pitcher, then please explain why Contreras started Game 1 of the ALDS, Game 1 of the ALCS and Game 1 of the World Series.

Sure, it's quite simple. He was our hotest pitcher at the time. Ozzie was riding the hot hand. You don't mean to tell me that your reasoning for calling Contreras the best pitcher is simply because he started the first game in each playoff series....

....do you? I hope not.

slavko
12-30-2005, 11:49 AM
Everything that's been written or said in the past about the ownership being cheap or not acting like a major market franchise was off-target.

Everything that's now being written or said about the ownership opening the pursestrings or acting like a major market franchise is off-target.

The ownership has been consistent from day one. They spent all the revenue from operations and never paid a dividend to partners. That's all they're doing now. They're anticipating a big 2006 and spending the money in advance.

They were not villains then. They are not heroes now.

(I do like them better now.)

TheVulture
12-30-2005, 01:19 PM
If Contreras isn't our best pitcher, then please explain why Contreras started Game 1 of the ALDS, Game 1 of the ALCS and Game 1 of the World Series.

Look, it's pretty simple, and this is directed to Jjav, too. Buehrle is the man, Contreras is the man, and the Sox rule. That's all there is to it.

Bobbo35
12-30-2005, 01:39 PM
Are you kidding Abreu for Contreras? In a heartbeat!
Thats what I am talking about!

gowhitesox
12-30-2005, 01:48 PM
How old is Contreras really?

According to baseball-reference.com he is 34, but I have also heard 36-37. If it were up to me I would give him 2 years with an option year.

Bobbo35
12-30-2005, 02:03 PM
I think that with having Jose for a long term means that we are locked in with a guy who has been questionable the past couple of years. Don't get me wrong he was the main stay of the staff for the second half of the season, but can be a headcase. Without him our staff is still tops

1)Buehrle
2)Garcia
3)Garland
4)Vasquez
5)McCarthy

Am I wrong?

BainesHOF
12-30-2005, 02:22 PM
Sure, it's quite simple. He was our hotest pitcher at the time. Ozzie was riding the hot hand.

Contreras might have been the best pitcher in baseball for the second half of the season.

And unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe he's taken any losses in the offseason.

ShoelessJoeS
12-30-2005, 02:43 PM
I think that with having Jose for a long term means that we are locked in with a guy who has been questionable the past couple of years. Don't get me wrong he was the main stay of the staff for the second half of the season, but can be a headcase. Without him our staff is still tops

1)Buehrle
2)Garcia
3)Garland
4)Vasquez
5)McCarthy

Am I wrong?
Yes, there are 2 z's in Vazquez

:tongue:

soxinem1
12-30-2005, 02:55 PM
What kind of insurance would Wade Miller provide? If that's insurance, they could sign me for a lot less.

True. Plus, I hear James Baldwin is still available and may consider coming back to the Sox.

samram
12-30-2005, 03:01 PM
True. Plus, I hear James Baldwin is still available and may consider coming back to the Sox.

James Baldwin may consider pitching for my company's softball team.

soxfan1983
12-30-2005, 03:14 PM
If Contreras isn't our best pitcher, then please explain why Contreras started Game 1 of the ALDS, Game 1 of the ALCS and Game 1 of the World Series.


because he was the pitcher that was having the hottest month/second half. i like Contreras, i think he has great stuff, but i do not think hes our ace. theres a reason why Buerhle has started opening day the last few years and why he started the all star game.... and why he is going to be starting opening day this year. hes our ace, our best pitcher, hands down. consistency correlates with greatness and Contreras my friend isn't consistent. (im not denying that he had a great second half last year,,, but a half of a season doesn't automatically mean you are great and deserve 36$ million. i hope he continues to get better... but if we could get Abreu for him... dang i would do that in a heart beat. and if we really wanted to, we could turn around and trade him to a team and get a crap load of prospects... better ones and more than we could ever get with contreras. thats why i feel this rumor of contreras for abreu is probably false. seems too good to be true)

thomas35forever
12-30-2005, 03:22 PM
Contreras is our best pitcher. A team seldom improves by getting rid of its best pitcher.

True, but Contreras was only hot during the second half. He had a so-so first half. I was at the Arizona game where he gave up 6 runs in the second inning. I'll have to see him pitch a whole 'nother season for us before I can say he's our best pitcher. I think Buehrle is our best pitcher all-around.

As for this trade rumor, I don't really see the point of it. It would send Brian Anderson back to the bench and I'm not sure if Abreu would be comfortable switching to centerfield. I would trade for someone who's more comfortable playing their position. Dye was already an established rightfielder, Podsednik was an established leftfielder, etc. We don't wanna be too risky this offseason. We've already taken a risk with Thome.

soxinem1
12-30-2005, 03:26 PM
I agree that Buehrle is our ace. He will start every opening day as long as he is with the Sox. That has nothing to do with Jose. 35 career wins means nothing. It makes no difference whether he has 35 or 135. All that number means is that he hasn't been in the league that long.

If you watched Jose for the last year and a half, you would realize that he always had electric stuff. He dominated from time to time, but he had a huge problem with walks. He finally listened to Coop, used his fastball more, changed his arm angle, and cut down on the walks. Once he did that, he became one of the best pitchers in baseball. He didn't find lighting in a bottle, he just learned to trust his stuff and dominate at the major league level. Jose has dominated every level he has ever played at. He dominated Cuban baseball, international baseball, and has now learned to dominate in the MLB. What else does he have to prove?

What the hell does it matter how long a player has been around? Is MLB experience more important than skill? Your arguement is horrible. Burnett is not a better pitcher than Contreras. Not even close. Burnett has not shown he can be great for more than a game here and there. Contreras was great from August on. He carried us into the playoffs (we wouldn't have been there without him), and he carried us to a championship. But Burnett is somehow better than him because he pitched a few more years in the majors and he has a no hitter to his credit?:kukoo:

First of all, he has to prove that he can be consistent over the course of an entire season. When he first came up with NY, he was very solid, but only pitched about a third of the season.

Paying a guy for his stuff, ala Burnett and Dreifort, is not a wise thing to do. That is a horrible argument to make.

Giving Contreras more than Pettite, Oswalt, and others makes no sense. My point is not horrible, it is quite rational. The Sox have enabled this guy to become a decent pitcher, he should show some gratitude. Just because we win a World Series does not mean we should throw all this money at pitchers who have not fully proven themselves.

And this applies to Garland too. His extension only makes sense if he pitches like he did most of this year, because trust me, if these guys are anything less than excellent next year, which is very possible, we will all be screaming about what mistake we made signing them and then we won't be able to get rid of them because of their salaries.

It was only this July when may of us were hoping that trade with Arizona would come true, because Contreras flat out stunk. And that was making $8 milliion a year, not the $12 million you propose to give him.

Ozzie was riding the hot hand when he started him first in the playoff series, any manager would have done that.

If Contreras thinks he's one of baseball's elite, uh, sorry, not quite yet. If the Sox win another title next year, they may have some of next year's FA class knocking on their doors wanting to play for a winner, so why jump the gun too fast?

Jjav829
12-30-2005, 03:40 PM
Contreras might have been the best pitcher in baseball for the second half of the season.

And unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe he's taken any losses in the offseason.

That's....that's...that's seriously your argument? That because he was one of the best pitchers in baseball in the second half, he is now our best pitcher? Oh wow....where to begin....

So, if he puts together a full season like his second half, will you be calling him the best pitcher in White Sox history? Should we just go ahead and retire his number? Start building his wing in Cooperstown?

Based on the absurd logic of BainesHOF, I've decided to make a new list of my top 10 pitchers in baseball.

Pitchers:
1.) Andy Pettitte
2.) Johan Santana
3.) Jose Contreras
4.) Jorge Sosa
5.) Aaron Small
6.) Jon Lieber
7.) Bartolo Colon
8.) David Wells
9.) Tom Glavine
10.) Carlos Zambrano

Pedro? Oswalt? Willis? Zito? Hudson? Mulder? Buehrle? Beckett? Clemens? Screw 'em. Who needs those scrubs when you can have some like Jorge Sosa who had 9 wins and a 2.31 after the break. :rolleyes:

I wonder if Braves fans are now saying Jorge Sosa is their best pitcher, not John Smoltz or Tim Hudson.

You seriously don't see how absurd this logic is? So what Buehrle has done for 5 years is thrown out the window in your mind because Contreras had a good second half?

Oh and BTW, while Contreras went 11-2 with a 2.96 ERA in the second half, Buehrle went 10-3 with a 2.58 in the first half. So I guess this is strictly a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately argument. And a horrible argument at that.

WhiteSoxNation
12-30-2005, 03:59 PM
One, this is according to the Cubune, who loves to start rumors about sox players.

Two, if its true, trade him now while his stock is high.

BainesHOF
12-30-2005, 05:00 PM
That's....that's...that's seriously your argument? That because he was one of the best pitchers in baseball in the second half, he is now our best pitcher? Oh wow....where to begin....

So, if he puts together a full season like his second half, will you be calling him the best pitcher in White Sox history? Should we just go ahead and retire his number? Start building his wing in Cooperstown?

Perhaps the car fumes are getting to you. With logic like that, you must want Red Faber or Early Wynn to start on Opening Day.

soxfan1983
12-30-2005, 05:37 PM
Perhaps the car fumes are getting to you. With logic like that, you must want Red Faber or Early Wynn to start on Opening Day.

honestly, what are you trying to say in this post??? your logic is horrible.
have you been.....

:bong:

Jjav829, I'm with you Buerhle is our best pitcher, bottom line

Jjav829
12-30-2005, 05:44 PM
Perhaps the car fumes are getting to you. With logic like that, you must want Red Faber or Early Wynn to start on Opening Day.
Yeah, me and my damn logic of thinking that a guy who has pitched 220+ innings in the last five years, posted an ERA of 3.89 or lower and had 16 or more wins in four of those years is our best pitcher. Oh, and he's 26 years old. So it your use of Faber or Wynn is to suggest that I am going on the past, you'd be absolutely right...if I was talking about a 40 year old pitcher who dominated a decade ago. I'm not. I'm talking about a pitcher in the prime of his career who may very well continue to post these numbers for another 10 years.

But hey, I'm crazy like that. I like to think that you have to sustain success for, oh, let's say more than a half of a season before you can be considered the best. Yeah, I know. What insane logic, right? :rolleyes:

soxfan1983
12-30-2005, 05:53 PM
:tomatoaward

BainesHOF
12-30-2005, 06:08 PM
But hey, I'm crazy like that. I like to think that you have to sustain success for, oh, let's say more than a half of a season before you can be considered the best. Yeah, I know. What insane logic, right? :rolleyes:

Then why did Ozzie start Contreras in the first game of each playoff series? And what has happened in the offseason to change that thinking?

The truth? You can't handle the truth.

Dan Mega
12-30-2005, 06:12 PM
True. Plus, I hear James Baldwin is still available and may consider coming back to the Sox.

:bundy

DickAllen72
12-30-2005, 06:36 PM
Buerhle has been the Sox' best pitcher over the past few years. Contreras has been the Sox best pitcher the past few months. As of late, Contreras is the Sox best pitcher.

Who will be the Sox best pitcher next year? Who knows? Maybe Garland, or Garcia or Contreras or Buehrle, or McCarthy or Vazquez...

Contreras ended the year as the Sox best pitcher and has done nothing in the offseason (obviously) to change that.

I'd offer Jose a two year extension for $22M. In today's market, I think that's fair for both sides and wise for the White Sox.

Chitown Hitmen
12-30-2005, 06:40 PM
I agree...He had 1 good half and that's it....

Yea, but overall he has had a great year, in play-offs and regular season. I would never bash him until he's off the Sox, but that is a little too much for Jose, who can give too much HR's, walks, wild pitches, and hits batters. First post people I'm new here, look's like a great site.

doctor30th
12-30-2005, 11:16 PM
2 years 20 mil option for a third. that's the best I would ever go for him. I would think the Sox probably are offering him 8 mil for year one and 10 mil for year two. Keeping him on the same type of contract as garland who also had a good year last year.

Maybe offer him a 12 million option for a third year.

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-31-2005, 02:16 AM
Why does everyone seem to break up the Sox's great pitching staff? I doubt that Contreras will have a bad year next season and I think he will be just as dominant as he was in the second half. If he isn't than we put McCarthy in his spot and trade him at the deadline or have him pitch as a LRP. I'd be more worried about Vazquez or Garcia than Contreras. Even though Abreu is a good player I feel like that would revert the Sox back to their 2004 style. And if we don't sign him, than why can't we "rent" him out for next season?

Lip Man 1
12-31-2005, 02:21 AM
To me the issues with Jose are the following:

1. No track record, was the second half of 05 a fluke?
2. No one knows his real age. Pitchers generally lose it quickly after around
37.

That's not saying I want to trade him...I'm just urging caution to those who think Jose may suddenly be doing this for the next three or four years. I don't think that's going to happen.

Lip

IowaSox1971
12-31-2005, 03:54 AM
I really do not see the harm in just letting Jose pitch for us next season under his existing deal. He probably will pitch well, because he knows that the better he pitches, the more money he will get.

On the other hand, if he struggles, we can deal him to some team that needs an arm down the stretch. Why commit three years and $30 million or more to a guy who has had just one good half-season the past few years?

I like the idea of having Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Garland and Vazquez in our starting rotation and having McCarthy in the bullpen. McCarthy can pitch in middle or long relief, and he can be insurance in case one of our starters gets injured. The real strength of our team is our depth in starting pitching. Let's not diminish that depth.

Keeping Contreras around gives us a chance to repeat. Yes, there's a chance we might not re-sign him, but if that happens, then we can move McCarthy to the rotation in 2007. Let's have the strongest pitching staff we can have in 2006, because it will not be easy trying to repeat.

By the way, I kind of see Abreu as another Carlos Lee. He posts good stats, but does he really help your team win a championship? Will he do the little things like Dye does, such has hitting behind the runner, going for the base hit instead of the home run in key situations, etc.?

BainesHOF
12-31-2005, 04:01 AM
I really do not see the harm in just letting Jose pitch for us next season under his existing deal.

I like the idea of having Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Garland and Vazquez in our starting rotation and having McCarthy in the bullpen. McCarthy can pitch in middle or long relief, and he can be insurance in case one of our starters gets injured. The real strength of our team is our depth in starting pitching. Let's not diminish that depth.

Keeping Contreras around gives us a chance to repeat. Yes, there's a chance we might not re-sign him, but if that happens, then we can move McCarthy to the rotation in 2007. Let's have the strongest pitching staff we can have in 2006, because it will not be easy trying to repeat.

You can put this post on the boaaaaard, yesssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!

Chitown Hitmen
12-31-2005, 09:41 AM
To me the issues with Jose are the following:

1. No track record, was the second half of 05 a fluke?
2. No one knows his real age. Pitchers generally lose it quickly after around
37.

That's not saying I want to trade him...I'm just urging caution to those who think Jose may suddenly be doing this for the next three or four years. I don't think that's going to happen.

Lip

It wasn't a fluke, he did pretty good all year.

Tragg
12-31-2005, 09:51 AM
I would be willing to trade him, if a generous deal would come along, but I wouldn't feel compelled to trade him, as he likely will help us next year.
I will say, that generous deal could be a generous deal of prospects.
I wouldn't overpay in signing him either.

ilsox7
12-31-2005, 09:52 AM
It wasn't a fluke, he did pretty good all year.

ERA pre-ASB: 4.26
ERA post-ASB: 2.96

HUGE difference.

WinOrDyeTrying
12-31-2005, 09:55 AM
ERA pre-ASB: 4.26
ERA post-ASB: 2.96

HUGE difference.

The difference is a result from different arm angles. Before the all-star break, he would pitch over-hand, which is widely used in the MLB. El Duque convinced him to pitch the way he did back in Cuba

Chitown Hitmen
12-31-2005, 10:01 AM
ERA pre-ASB: 4.26
ERA post-ASB: 2.96

HUGE difference.

You can't just take ERA into hands. You have to look deeper into his stat's. ERA just proves that he was decent before, and real good after. So he did pretty good all year. What I meant to say he was pretty good overall.

soxinem1
12-31-2005, 10:11 AM
:bundy


More like:
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:2MXyTk48ycQJ:http://www.gfxzone.org/theme/8_bit/07/pixel-scared.png (http://www.gfxzone.org/theme/8_bit/07/pixel-scared.png)

TornLabrum
12-31-2005, 10:43 AM
ERA pre-ASB: 4.26
ERA post-ASB: 2.96

HUGE difference.

Still in the AL, 4.26 isn't a bad ERA considering the league average for the year was 4.76. So in the worst part of his season, Contreras was still half a run ahead of the league. Still, there were some UNGLY starts, like the one on the west coast (was it Oakland?).

Jjav829
12-31-2005, 11:13 AM
Then why did Ozzie start Contreras in the first game of each playoff series? And what has happened in the offseason to change that thinking?

The truth? You can't handle the truth.

Because he was the hotest pitcher at the time. Didn't we just go through this? I guess you have to come back to the same thing since the only way you can support your argument is by saying that Contreras started the first game of each playoffs series. That should tell you that your argument is bad, though I guess when logic is absent then these types of realizations are hard to come by.:rolleyes:

:contreras:
"Geez, even I know I'm not as good as Mark Buehrle."

:burly
"No wonder I don't get much national recognition. There are still fans of the team I pitch for who don't understand how good I am."

Chitown Hitmen
12-31-2005, 11:28 AM
Because he was the hotest pitcher at the time. Didn't we just go through this? I guess you have to come back to the same thing since the only way you can support your argument is by saying that Contreras started the first game of each playoffs series. That should tell you that your argument is bad, though I guess when logic is absent then these types of realizations are hard to come by.:rolleyes:

:contreras:
"Geez, even I know I'm not as good as Mark Buehrle."

:burly
"No wonder I don't get much national recognition. There are still fans of the team I pitch for who don't understand how good I am."

In my opinion, Mark was one of the top AL pitchers, and better than jose.

mikesouthside
12-31-2005, 12:05 PM
Jose...thanks for being a stud the 2nd half...BUT C U LATER!!!! C'mon already. 3/36???? More like 1 for 7 or 8.....but I'm no GM.

Chitown Hitmen
12-31-2005, 12:10 PM
Jose...thanks for being a stud the 2nd half...BUT C U LATER!!!! C'mon already. 3/36???? More like 1 for 7 or 8.....but I'm no GM.

Maybe, but I think they would rather work out a 2 year 15 million dollar deal.

BainesHOF
12-31-2005, 05:18 PM
Because he was the hotest pitcher at the time. Didn't we just go through this? I guess you have to come back to the same thing since the only way you can support your argument is by saying that Contreras started the first game of each playoffs series. That should tell you that your argument is bad, though I guess when logic is absent then these types of realizations are hard to come by.

Contreras was not merely hot. He was probably the best pitcher in baseball for the second half of the season once he changed a couple things, namely attacking hitters and no longer tipping his pitchers. He has the best stuff on the staff. Unless he went to the circus in the offseason and a lion attacked his right arm, he should be the same pitcher that Ozzie thought was our best pitcher in the playoffs.

Mr. "Logic," I'm now done with this thread. You can live in the past. I prefer to live in the present.

Daver
12-31-2005, 05:24 PM
Contreras was not merely hot. He was probably the best pitcher in baseball for the second half of the season once he changed a couple things, namely attacking hitters and no longer tipping his pitchers. He has the best stuff on the staff. Unless he went to the circus in the offseason and a lion attacked his right arm, he should be the same pitcher that Ozzie thought was our best pitcher in the playoffs.

Mr. "Logic," I'm now done with this thread. You can live in the past. I prefer to live in the present.

Your obtuseness is staggering.

StillMissOzzie
12-31-2005, 05:41 PM
2 years 20 mil option for a third. that's the best I would ever go for him. I would think the Sox probably are offering him 8 mil for year one and 10 mil for year two. Keeping him on the same type of contract as garland who also had a good year last year.

Maybe offer him a 12 million option for a third year.

Apples vs. oranges. The problem here is that Garland's $7M for the 1st year covers his arbitation-eligible year, when $7-8M would have been a likely request. Contreras is a free agent after the 2006 season.

SMO
:gulp:

GoSox2K3
01-13-2006, 05:29 PM
Now that the Sox have locked up Garland for 3 more years, are they still interested in working out a contract extension with Contreras?

I don't mean to ask if the Sox will pay him 3/36. But, if Jose agrees to something the Sox were willing to give him before the Garland deal, would the Sox still do it? Or does the Garland deal mean that the Sox have closed the door on Contreras?

SouthsideChi
01-13-2006, 06:06 PM
I would honestly offer Jose a contract of 2 years 22 million plus a 3rd year team option worth 13 million or the 3rd year can be kicked in by meeting certain requirements IE ERA, Ws, Ks, IP, etc.

getonbckthr
01-13-2006, 06:15 PM
Could somebody lock this thread. Until the last 2 posters this topic wasn't touched for 2 weeks.

SoxSpeed22
01-13-2006, 06:23 PM
Could somebody lock this thread. Until the last 2 posters this topic wasn't touched for 2 weeks.Thread...Necromancing!

34 Inch Stick
01-14-2006, 01:14 PM
I would honestly offer Jose a contract of 2 years 22 million plus a 3rd year team option worth 13 million or the 3rd year can be kicked in by meeting certain requirements IE ERA, Ws, Ks, IP, etc.

I would think that would be the top end of the market for Jose even if he has a Cy Young type of year this year. There is no need to spend that kind of money now with the Sox taking on the risk. If Jose wants that type of money, let him earn it.