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soxinem1
12-23-2005, 01:13 PM
One thing I have admired about Kenny Williams is his ability to pluck players of other teams rosters. Yet the number of players from the farm system he has traded to other organizations, while numerous, has not yielded any real stars or impact guys.

I was looking today at Michael Young's stats and transaction history. I knew he was a product of the Blue Jays system, but I didn't know he was thrown in as part of the trade that sent Esteban Loaiza to Toronto! Not a bad little pick up for Texas.

But I am really puzzled on why so few Sox minor leagures have developed with other organizations. Is it that KW and his staff have developed a niche of grabbing guys from other teams, but other than Frank 'Take My Chair, Please' Francisco with Texas, Jeremy Reed in Seattle, and Matt Guirrier with the Twins, are there ANY former Sox farm hands out there with other teams?

Iwritecode
12-23-2005, 01:19 PM
One thing I have admired about Kenny Williams is his ability to pluck players of other teams rosters. Yet the number of players from the farm system he has traded to other organizations, while numerous, has not yielded any real stars or impact guys.

I was looking today at Michael Young's stats and transaction history. I knew he was a product of the Blue Jays system, but I didn't know he was thrown in as part of the trade that sent Esteban Loaiza to Toronto! Not a bad little pick up for Texas.

But I am really puzzled on why so few Sox minor leagures have developed with other organizations. Is it that KW and his staff have developed a niche of grabbing guys from other teams, but other than Frank 'Take My Chair, Please' Francisco with Texas, Jeremy Reed in Seattle, and Matt Guirrier with the Twins, are there ANY former Sox farm hands out there with other teams?

I believe Kip Wells is still with Pittsburgh. Olivo and Fogg will probably be picked up by somebody.

soxinem1
12-23-2005, 01:25 PM
I believe Kip Wells is still with Pittsburgh. Olivo and Fogg will probably be picked up by somebody.

I should clarify.. Sox ML'ers who were originally signed by the Sox. Wells and Fogg are, but Olivo is from Oakland.

TaylorStSox
12-23-2005, 01:52 PM
Majewski
Maggs
Lee
Cameron

WhiteSoxFan84
12-23-2005, 01:55 PM
Jon Rauch

delben91
12-23-2005, 01:57 PM
I think Royce Ring had a cup of coffee with the Mets in 2005.

SoxFan76
12-23-2005, 01:58 PM
Brendan Donnely was drafted by the White Sox...didn't make the bigs until 01 or 02 though...

maurice
12-23-2005, 02:12 PM
The Sox system has produced a great many relievers and OFs currently playing in MLB.

soxinem1
12-23-2005, 02:35 PM
The Sox system has produced a great many relievers and OFs currently playing in MLB.

Great many? And they are?


I know there's a few, but it seems like there are VERY few major leaguers who got their start in the Sox farm system. Further more, how many are past the fringe, especially in the last five years?

maurice
12-23-2005, 02:44 PM
Great many? And they are? I know there's a few, but it seems like there are VERY few major leaguers who got their start in the Sox farm system.

The list of relievers probably is double-digits; many already have been listed in this thread. Some of them have signed fairly large contracts in recent years. If you include "fringe" players like Baldwin, the list is even longer.

Sox prospects who currently are starting OF for other MLB teams include:
- Ordonez
- Lee
- Cameron
- Rowand
- Reed
Also, Anderson will be starting for the Sox in 2006, and Young probably will be starting for the D'backs by the end of the season (maybe even the beginning of the season). I'm no math major, but that has to be approximately double the MLB average.

caulfield12
12-23-2005, 02:55 PM
The list of relievers probably is double-digits; many already have been listed in this thread. Some of them have signed fairly large contracts in recent years. If you include "fringe" players like Baldwin, the list is even longer.

Sox prospects who currently are starting OF for other MLB teams include:
- Ordonez
- Lee
- Cameron
- Rowand
- Reed
Also, Anderson will be starting for the Sox in 2006, and Young probably will be starting for the D'backs by the end of the season (maybe even the beginning of the season). I'm no math major, but that has to be approximately double the MLB average.

Matt Guerrier
Matt Ginter
Royce Ring
Frank Francisco
Josh Fogg
Kip Wells
Jon Rauch
Rocky Biddle
Gary Majewski
Allan Levine ?
Aaron Miles
Olmedo Saenz
Frank Menechino
Bob Wickman
Scott Eyre
Mark Johnson
Greg Norton
Ray Durham
James Baldwin
Bobby Seay (unsigned)
AJ Hinch (unsigned)

soxinem1
12-23-2005, 03:01 PM
The list of relievers probably is double-digits; many already have been listed in this thread. Some of them have signed fairly large contracts in recent years. If you include "fringe" players like Baldwin, the list is even longer.

Sox prospects who currently are starting OF for other MLB teams include:
- Ordonez
- Lee
- Cameron
- Rowand
- Reed
Also, Anderson will be starting for the Sox in 2006, and Young probably will be starting for the D'backs by the end of the season (maybe even the beginning of the season). I'm no math major, but that has to be approximately double the MLB average.

Okay, I see what you are driving at. My point is guys who were signed or drafted by the Sox, but were traded away or let go, and had little or no ML service with the ChiSox.

The guys brought up in the thread are established major leaguers, most of whom were drafted and signed in the 80's or early 90's.

I'm referring to guys like Gload, Jenks, Konerko, Ozuna, Jaime Burk, etc., in reverse. I guess Chad Bradford and Donnelly are in the right category, but they were signed before 1995.

The Sox drafted a ton of pitchers from 1999 to the present, but many of them seem to have not done too much.

soxinem1
12-23-2005, 03:06 PM
Matt Guerrier
Matt Ginter
Royce Ring
Frank Francisco
Josh Fogg
Kip Wells
Jon Rauch
Rocky Biddle
Gary Majewski
Allan Levine ?
Aaron Miles
Olmedo Saenz
Frank Menechino
Bob Wickman
Scott Eyre
Mark Johnson
Greg Norton
Ray Durham
James Baldwin
Bobby Seay (unsigned)
AJ Hinch (unsigned)

Miles and Eyre are not Sox produced, they were aquired in trades. Other than Wickman and Durham, most of these guys are scrubs.

Which is amplifying my point here. The Sox have not been producing in house, and the guys they do draft seem to go nowhere.

I may have to start a Larry Himes Appreciation thread.

caulfield12
12-23-2005, 03:24 PM
Miles and Eyre are not Sox produced, they were aquired in trades. Other than Wickman and Durham, most of these guys are scrubs.

Which is amplifying my point here. The Sox have not been producing in house, and the guys they do draft seem to go nowhere.

I may have to start a Larry Himes Appreciation thread.

Eyre most certainly is...he came through the system roughly the same time as Tom Fordham. He pitched for the Sox in 97, 98 and 99.

He then was traded to Toronto for Glover.

Miles, I think, was signed as a minor league FA.

caulfield12
12-23-2005, 03:26 PM
Okay, I see what you are driving at. My point is guys who were signed or drafted by the Sox, but were traded away or let go, and had little or no ML service with the ChiSox.

The guys brought up in the thread are established major leaguers, most of whom were drafted and signed in the 80's or early 90's.

I'm referring to guys like Gload, Jenks, Konerko, Ozuna, Jaime Burk, etc., in reverse. I guess Chad Bradford and Donnelly are in the right category, but they were signed before 1995.

The Sox drafted a ton of pitchers from 1999 to the present, but many of them seem to have not done too much.

Some names that come to mind here...

Kevin Beirne
Aaron Myette
Lorenzo Barcelo
Brian West
Jason Stumm
Corwin Malone
Kris Honel
Danny Wright
Matt Ginter
Matt Guerrier
Jon Rauch

TheKittle
12-23-2005, 04:50 PM
Some names that come to mind here...

Kevin Beirne
Aaron Myette
Lorenzo Barcelo
Brian West
Jason Stumm
Corwin Malone
Kris Honel
Danny Wright
Matt Ginter
Matt Guerrier
Jon Rauch

Barcelo was aquired by the White Sox in the White Flag trade.

This thread does underline something about Kenny and his trades. Basically Kenny has used the farm system to get major league talent to win right now. If the minor leaguers traded have become true superstars that's one thing. But the lists on here, there aren't many all stars much less superstars.

Yes getting Ritchie from the Pirates was a terrible trade for the White Sox. But Wells is nothing but a 3rd pitcher. Fogg was just released.

caulfield12
12-23-2005, 05:00 PM
Barcelo was aquired by the White Sox in the White Flag trade.

This thread does underline something about Kenny and his trades. Basically Kenny has used the farm system to get major league talent to win right now. If the minor leaguers traded have become true superstars that's one thing. But the lists on here, there aren't many all stars much less superstars.

Yes getting Ritchie from the Pirates was a terrible trade for the White Sox. But Wells is nothing but a 3rd pitcher. Fogg was just released.

Maybe Ken Vining and Caruso are out there somewhere as well, lol.

Howry and Foulke turned out to be the keys to that deal.

It's interesting...Caruso and Barcelo were the primary Sox gets in that deal, and they probably had the least impact...well, Manning and Vining were throw-ins, but it's funny how trades work out.

maurice
12-23-2005, 05:30 PM
Okay, I see what you are driving at. My point is guys who were signed or drafted by the Sox, but were traded away or let go, and had little or no ML service with the ChiSox.

That still probably would include Cameron and Reed, and soon will include Young. Among the relievers listed, most pitched very little (or not at all) for the Sox in the bigs and about half of them went on to have at least one good year in somebody else's MLB pen. Others are still young and may go on to have several good years. Wickman and Eyre (to pick out two obvious examples) signed impressive contracts in recent years. It's true that other postions are pretty sparse, but the sheer numbers show that the Sox have done an exceptional job of developing OF and RP.

Besides, I don't see why it's a knock on the Sox that they generally tend to keep their best prospects longer than their overvalued prospects (add to that list RP Edwin Almonte and RP Joe Valentine). As you noted, the Sox are really good at getting undervalued young players from other teams in exchange for overvalued Sox prospects. This result tends to show that KW, Wilder, etc. are really good at scouting young pros.

guys like Gload, Jenks, Konerko, Ozuna, Jaime Burk, etc.

Gload, Jenks, Ozuna, and Burke had little to no value when KW acquired them. Konerko was on his 2nd MLB team when the Sox got him in exchange for Cameron (a young, home-grown OF). Again, I don't see why this is a knock on the Sox.

Chicken Dinner
12-23-2005, 05:32 PM
And how many are making over a million bucks a year??

maurice
12-23-2005, 05:44 PM
And how many are making over a million bucks a year??

Plenty, though you obviously have to exclude the guys who have never been arbitration- or FA-eligible. Keep in mind that scrubs like Timo Perez and Ben Davis made $1 mil. from the Sox in 2005. It's a lot of money to me or you, but it's a drop in the bucket for a MLB veteran.

soxinem1
12-23-2005, 07:24 PM
Eyre most certainly is...he came through the system roughly the same time as Tom Fordham. He pitched for the Sox in 97, 98 and 99.

He then was traded to Toronto for Glover.

Miles, I think, was signed as a minor league FA.


Sox got Eyre from the Rangers for Esteban Beltre after he had TJ surgery. Tom 'Cy' Fordham? C'mon!

soxinem1
12-23-2005, 07:39 PM
The purpose of the thread is not to knock the Sox. Teams cannot produce the entire roster anymore like the Orioles, Dodgers, and Yankees used to do.

But without question, even by accounts of the lists of players posted, most of the names bare little in the way of non-journeyman type players.

It is a gift to be able to realize the treasures other teams have and take no value in, then be able to aquire them and assemble a Championship Organization.

KW himself once stated that taking a gamble on TJ operation pitchers was a no-brainer. The other team pays their salary, pays for the operation, rehabs them, then releases them! Then he (Ala Jenks, Aaron Miles) swoops in and steals the injury-recovered player. Ingenious!

Just don't be suprised if other teams start trying to copy the Sox.

MHOUSE
12-25-2005, 02:49 AM
I've simply noticed in the last 4 or 5 years, most of the guys the Sox traded away as minor-leaguers have amounted to very little. Some have made it to the ML level as middle relievers or 24th or 25th men on a roster, but so far no Dontrelle Willis' or big-name superstars. Anybody who we drafted, played for the Sox for several seasons, and left via trade or FA I don't count because they gave us some valuable seasons (A-Row, Maggs, Durham, Foulke, Howry, etc.) I see the fact that guys like Guerrier, Eyre, Rauch, and Royce Ring have had very little impact elsewhere but for spot starts and mop-up duty. We certainly haven't been fleeced out of a slew of minor leaguers who ended up being established major leaguers elsewhere. I will always always be willing to sell a guy high on talent and potential at the AA or AAA level in exchange for proven producers at the major-league level. It's amazing how many "can't miss" prospects end up missing entirely.

Flight #24
12-25-2005, 09:07 AM
Some names that come to mind here...

Kevin Beirne
Aaron Myette
Lorenzo Barcelo
Brian West
Jason Stumm
Corwin Malone
Kris Honel
Danny Wright
Matt Ginter
Matt Guerrier
Jon Rauch

Matt Guerrier
Matt Ginter
Royce Ring
Frank Francisco
Josh Fogg
Kip Wells
Jon Rauch
Rocky Biddle
Gary Majewski
Allan Levine ?
Aaron Miles
Olmedo Saenz
Frank Menechino
Bob Wickman
Scott Eyre
Mark Johnson
Greg Norton
Ray Durham
James Baldwin
Bobby Seay (unsigned)
AJ Hinch (unsigned)

:KW "And some people think I give up to much in trades.......look at that collection of crap!"

buehrle4cy05
12-25-2005, 01:01 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we initially have Eric Gagne (1994?)

soxinem1
12-25-2005, 01:31 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we initially have Eric Gagne (1994?)


Sox drafted him, but he did not sign.

soxinem1
12-25-2005, 01:34 PM
I've simply noticed in the last 4 or 5 years, most of the guys the Sox traded away as minor-leaguers have amounted to very little. Some have made it to the ML level as middle relievers or 24th or 25th men on a roster, but so far no Dontrelle Willis' or big-name superstars. Anybody who we drafted, played for the Sox for several seasons, and left via trade or FA I don't count because they gave us some valuable seasons (A-Row, Maggs, Durham, Foulke, Howry, etc.) I see the fact that guys like Guerrier, Eyre, Rauch, and Royce Ring have had very little impact elsewhere but for spot starts and mop-up duty. We certainly haven't been fleeced out of a slew of minor leaguers who ended up being established major leaguers elsewhere. I will always always be willing to sell a guy high on talent and potential at the AA or AAA level in exchange for proven producers at the major-league level. It's amazing how many "can't miss" prospects end up missing entirely.

This is my point. Only three guys on the WS roster were home grown, and of all the guys around, the lists of players posted wouldn't even make a good AAA team.

KW has shown a great ability to snatch guys from other organization, but we havent produced much.

We need to get back to the days of Larry Himes and start producing something with our #1 picks.

StockdaleForVeep
12-26-2005, 04:28 PM
Chad bradford

soxfan1983
12-26-2005, 04:42 PM
I've simply noticed in the last 4 or 5 years, most of the guys the Sox traded away as minor-leaguers have amounted to very little. Some have made it to the ML level as middle relievers or 24th or 25th men on a roster, but so far no Dontrelle Willis' or big-name superstars. Anybody who we drafted, played for the Sox for several seasons, and left via trade or FA I don't count because they gave us some valuable seasons (A-Row, Maggs, Durham, Foulke, Howry, etc.) I see the fact that guys like Guerrier, Eyre, Rauch, and Royce Ring have had very little impact elsewhere but for spot starts and mop-up duty. We certainly haven't been fleeced out of a slew of minor leaguers who ended up being established major leaguers elsewhere. I will always always be willing to sell a guy high on talent and potential at the AA or AAA level in exchange for proven producers at the major-league level. It's amazing how many "can't miss" prospects end up missing entirely.

im with you man especially with outfielders... they are a dime a dozen. pitchers and power guys... different story... and thats like predicting what the lottery numbers will be.

OG4LIFE
12-26-2005, 10:25 PM
Wells is nothing but a 3rd pitcher.

'nothing' but a middle of the rotation guy is not exactly nothing... what's the price tag for a #3 starter going for these days?

soxtalker
12-27-2005, 08:42 AM
One thing I have admired about Kenny Williams is his ability to pluck players of other teams rosters. Yet the number of players from the farm system he has traded to other organizations, while numerous, has not yielded any real stars or impact guys.

I was looking today at Michael Young's stats and transaction history. I knew he was a product of the Blue Jays system, but I didn't know he was thrown in as part of the trade that sent Esteban Loaiza to Toronto! Not a bad little pick up for Texas.

But I am really puzzled on why so few Sox minor leagures have developed with other organizations. Is it that KW and his staff have developed a niche of grabbing guys from other teams, but other than Frank 'Take My Chair, Please' Francisco with Texas, Jeremy Reed in Seattle, and Matt Guirrier with the Twins, are there ANY former Sox farm hands out there with other teams?

Part of the problem may simply be that we haven't drafted really low for many years. The Sox haven't been terrible for a long time. So, we're missing out on the top-rated minor leaguers.

KW was in charge of the minor league system for awhile before he became GM, so it is natural to expect some continuity there. However, I wonder how much control and influence Schueler exerted over that part of the organization. KW may have disagreed with decisions on some players, or he may have been learning how to evaluate players better -- something that is probably true for trades in general.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-27-2005, 09:11 AM
One thing I have admired about Kenny Williams is his ability to pluck players of other teams rosters. Yet the number of players from the farm system he has traded to other organizations, while numerous, has not yielded any real stars or impact guys.

I was looking today at Michael Young's stats and transaction history. I knew he was a product of the Blue Jays system, but I didn't know he was thrown in as part of the trade that sent Esteban Loaiza to Toronto! Not a bad little pick up for Texas.

But I am really puzzled on why so few Sox minor leagures have developed with other organizations. Is it that KW and his staff have developed a niche of grabbing guys from other teams, but other than Frank 'Take My Chair, Please' Francisco with Texas, Jeremy Reed in Seattle, and Matt Guirrier with the Twins, are there ANY former Sox farm hands out there with other teams?

A player usually takes 4 - 5 years after being drafted just to make the major league roster, let alone amount to anything. A college graduate will shave a few years off (being 4 years older than the typical high school draft pick). Kenny just completed his fifth year so give the players he drafted a chance.

Brian Anderson (1st round 2003) and Ryan Sweeney (2nd round 2003) are Chris Young are three outfielders drafted under Kenny's reign as GM.

Kenny was also able to turn Jeremy Reed and Chris Young (along with Olivo, El Duque, Vizcaino and Mike Morse) into Garcia and Vazquez.

Josh Fields is also a very good prospect. Kenny's two other top draft picks pre 2005 are Kris Honel (who has reached AA but has had elbow problems) and Royce Ring, who was traded to the Mets for the bag of bones known as Robert Alomar (mid 2003) which was a push as Ring has pitched 10 innings so far in the majors and isn't expected to amount to much.

soxinem1
12-27-2005, 10:42 AM
A player usually takes 4 - 5 years after being drafted just to make the major league roster, let alone amount to anything. A college graduate will shave a few years off (being 4 years older than the typical high school draft pick). Kenny just completed his fifth year so give the players he drafted a chance.

Brian Anderson (1st round 2003) and Ryan Sweeney (2nd round 2003) are Chris Young are three outfielders drafted under Kenny's reign as GM.

Kenny was also able to turn Jeremy Reed and Chris Young (along with Olivo, El Duque, Vizcaino and Mike Morse) into Garcia and Vazquez.

Josh Fields is also a very good prospect. Kenny's two other top draft picks pre 2005 are Kris Honel (who has reached AA but has had elbow problems) and Royce Ring, who was traded to the Mets for the bag of bones known as Robert Alomar (mid 2003) which was a push as Ring has pitched 10 innings so far in the majors and isn't expected to amount to much.


One realistic fact is that MLB first round picks, unlike ALL the other sports, are not guaranteed anything, and have a very big probability of totally flopping. Who was the last Sox #1 pick to be even a somewhat successful major leaguer? Try Aaron Rowand, and that was over seven years ago. Jeff Liefer, Borchard (so far), Kip Wells (sorry, he hasn't lived up to the billing) and others were wasted picks.

Though I'm sure it would never happen, Larry Himes coming back to scout the amateurs would be a godsend. All of his drafts reaped really solid players. Not only did all his #1's become stars, his last draft, 1990 was probably the best in Sox history, and maybe one of the best ever in a single year. Check out these names:

Alex Fernandez, Bob Wickman, Robert Ellis, James Baldwin, Ray Durham, Rodney Bolton, and Jason Bere. While Ellis and Bolton didn't do much, Ellis threw bee-bee's at one time. Himes also drafted Rich Dotson and Roberto Hernandez with the Angels.

Ron Scheuler had some of the worst drafts in Sox history, and passed up guys like Johnny Damon, Charles Johnson, Jon Lieber, and Jason Giambi, to draft Eddie Pearson, then Torii Hunter, Scott Rolen, Jeff Suppan, and Jason Varitek to draft Scott Christman. And that was just in his first two years as GM. I know it's a crap shoot drafting, but if Himes did it, we could do it again.

So while KW has done well with trades and plucking minor leaguers from other teams, I just think it's time the Sox spend more effort in drafting their own guys. If they can recognize the talent in other organizations, and draft well too, we'd be annual contenders for eternity, and that should be the goal.

Randar68
12-27-2005, 11:57 AM
im with you man especially with outfielders... they are a dime a dozen. pitchers and power guys... different story... and thats like predicting what the lottery numbers will be.

Your problem is in the interpretation of "home grown". Basically, unless the SOX signed a player through draft or FA prior to them being with any other team, they aren't home-grown...

That is absolutely preposterous. Miguel Olivo was nothing but projection when acquired. Cotts much the same. Garland had been with the Cubs just 12 months. The list of players acquired at low levels or at very raw stages in their development (like Jerry Owens) are longer, yet you don't consider those players "home grown"

If you look at any organization and disqualify prospects or players acquired before they were much of anything, there are going to be many, many, many organizations deemed lacking in terms of developing "home grown" talent.

The scope of your definition of "home grown" is just far too narrow.

Randar68
12-27-2005, 11:58 AM
So while KW has done well with trades and plucking minor leaguers from other teams, I just think it's time the Sox spend more effort in drafting their own guys.

And as to my previous point, this is where you are being naive, intentionally or otherwise.

soxinem1
12-27-2005, 12:25 PM
And as to my previous point, this is where you are being naive, intentionally or otherwise.

That's a naive response, intentionally or otherwise. And preposterous? Why? It's been done, and is still being done. The Twins have been cranking out players for years, home grown at that. Are you forgetting that they did win the Central three straight times and barely missed making it four (in 2001)? The Dodgers, despite their 2005 season, have a whole line up of players, mostly home grown, just waiting to arrive. And the Braves repeatedly insert home grown guys in the line up. They probably have the largest amount of home grown players in the ML on their 25 man roster. The result: 14 straight playoff appearances.

What is so bad about developing your own players? They are already spending the money, the area just needs some tweaking. We should be trying to get the scouts on board who find these guys for Atlanta, Minnesotta, and LA.

Eventually, if this continues, other teams will not be making these trades with the Sox, not for players coming from an organization that peak at AAA or as fringe major leaguers.

Supposedly in the mid-late 90's we, according to Scheuler, had all this pitching depth in the minors, of which only Buerhle and Bere amounted to anything, and both were very low draft picks.

I think you are being naive if you think that KW and the Sox will be bilking these teams in trades forever. Now that the Sox have a WS Championship, the goal should be a continuous level of competitiveness, with a goal of making the playoffs every year.

It's time the minors start producing some players that make an impact again. If you want to rely on the Matt Karchner's and other Rule 5 or minor league throw ins, the 1988 White Sox are for you. As for me, I want to see a perennial contender, I will never grow bored with that.

Fungo
12-27-2005, 12:27 PM
This is my point. Only three guys on the WS roster were home grown, and of all the guys around, the lists of players posted wouldn't even make a good AAA team.

KW has shown a great ability to snatch guys from other organization, but we havent produced much.

We need to get back to the days of Larry Himes and start producing something with our #1 picks.

I guess if you omit guys like...

Ordonez
Lee
Cameron
Rowand
Crede
Buehrle
Reed

...then it may look like "we haven't produced much".

caulfield12
12-27-2005, 12:28 PM
This is my point. Only three guys on the WS roster were home grown, and of all the guys around, the lists of players posted wouldn't even make a good AAA team.

KW has shown a great ability to snatch guys from other organization, but we havent produced much.

We need to get back to the days of Larry Himes and start producing something with our #1 picks.

One of the problems is that the White Sox have gone the longest of any major league organization without a June draft pick in the Top 10. This is because they have a sustained record of .500 or above ball...some would say mediocrity, but that's a form of success, lol.

The reason there are not Frank Thomases, Robin Venturas, Alex Fernandezes and Jack McDowells everywhere is because the Sox recently haven't been in a position to pull the trigger on a Mark Prior or Joe Mauer with the #1 pick. Combine that with the Alvarez/Sosa deal, and that's the majority of the credit that should go to Himes....Bere, Radinsky, Durham, etc.

Fungo
12-27-2005, 12:38 PM
Supposedly in the mid-late 90's we, according to Scheuler, had all this pitching depth in the minors, of which only Buerhle and Bere amounted to anything, and both were very low draft picks.

The same thing was said about the cubs pitching in the minors just a few years back and where are all of their supposed studs? Injuries, guys not panning out, things happen...it's the nature of the beast. If the draft were such a sure thing, there would be no flops, but the fact is that that the Eddie Pearson's and Scott Christman's were just as high on the other teams board as they were on ours. You're making it sound as if no other team has had it's share of can't miss prospects that did in fact miss.

soxfan1983
12-27-2005, 01:21 PM
Your problem is in the interpretation of "home grown". Basically, unless the SOX signed a player through draft or FA prior to them being with any other team, they aren't home-grown...

That is absolutely preposterous. Miguel Olivo was nothing but projection when acquired. Cotts much the same. Garland had been with the Cubs just 12 months. The list of players acquired at low levels or at very raw stages in their development (like Jerry Owens) are longer, yet you don't consider those players "home grown"

If you look at any organization and disqualify prospects or players acquired before they were much of anything, there are going to be many, many, many organizations deemed lacking in terms of developing "home grown" talent.

The scope of your definition of "home grown" is just far too narrow.

whoa, settle down there buddy. i was just agreeing with the guy.

i dont really know where you got the idea that i dont know what "home grown" players are from what i said. i know what home grown talent is... buerhle obviously and also maggs and carlos lee were before they left for example. i dont really care for outfield prospects... other positions yes because they are hard to come by. when i said the lottery thing i was referring that it is hard to figure out which players are going to turn out into "the one". i believe that OUTFIELD prospects should be used in trades to get established players that will provide instant help. for example like our recent trades of outfield prospects: young, reed, etc. for established players: vasquez, thome, garcia.

doublem23
12-27-2005, 01:30 PM
It's time the minors start producing some players that make an impact again. If you want to rely on the Matt Karchner's and other Rule 5 or minor league throw ins, the 1988 White Sox are for you. As for me, I want to see a perennial contender, I will never grow bored with that.

I don't understand why the minors need to be the ones to grow the talent. What's wrong with how the Sox won this year? Williams completely overhauled his MLB roster with talented veterans instead of relying on unproven youngsters and viola... his team won 99 games. As Randar also stated, just because a guy wasn't drafted by the Sox or signed as an F/A originally by them, that doesn't mean he's not a home-grown talent. Garland is a prime example. He's spent his entire professional career sans his first year in the organization. Why is his two years in the Sox farm system overlooked while his one year with the Cubs supposedly more important?

I personally think Kenny Williams has the right approach. He runs the team with an organizational approach, but is most concerned with the product on the field in Chicago. He understands that one team cannot produce a player to fill every hole on a roster, and has made savvy moves at the Major League level the last few years to get it done. I'd even be willing to argue that the Sox should have made the play-offs in 2003 and had a legitimate chance to win the World Series in 2004 (before Frank and Maggs went down). He's put a play-off caliber team on the field for the Sox three years in a row by building a team from within and from without. I see no reason to change this approach, just because our farm system doesn't produce a futur Hall of Famer every twelve minutes.

soxinem1
12-27-2005, 01:39 PM
I guess if you omit guys like...

Ordonez
Lee
Cameron
Rowand
Crede
Buehrle
Reed

...then it may look like "we haven't produced much".

Ordonez, Lee, Cameron, were all drafted about ten years ago. While it is true the Sox have not had a top ten pick, look a the scores of guys who are all stars today picked after recent Sox #1 picks.

My point, again, is that you can only do it KW's way for so long, and that I think it's time we joined the small list of perrenial contenders and make a sustained effort in developing our own players.

MisterB
12-27-2005, 01:48 PM
That's a naive response, intentionally or otherwise. And preposterous? Why? It's been done, and is still being done. The Twins have been cranking out players for years, home grown at that. Are you forgetting that they did win the Central three straight times and barely missed making it four (in 2001)? The Dodgers, despite their 2005 season, have a whole line up of players, mostly home grown, just waiting to arrive. And the Braves repeatedly insert home grown guys in the line up. They probably have the largest amount of home grown players in the ML on their 25 man roster. The result: 14 straight playoff appearances.

What is so bad about developing your own players? They are already spending the money, the area just needs some tweaking. We should be trying to get the scouts on board who find these guys for Atlanta, Minnesotta, and LA.

Eventually, if this continues, other teams will not be making these trades with the Sox, not for players coming from an organization that peak at AAA or as fringe major leaguers.

Supposedly in the mid-late 90's we, according to Scheuler, had all this pitching depth in the minors, of which only Buerhle and Bere amounted to anything, and both were very low draft picks.

I think you are being naive if you think that KW and the Sox will be bilking these teams in trades forever. Now that the Sox have a WS Championship, the goal should be a continuous level of competitiveness, with a goal of making the playoffs every year.

It's time the minors start producing some players that make an impact again. If you want to rely on the Matt Karchner's and other Rule 5 or minor league throw ins, the 1988 White Sox are for you. As for me, I want to see a perennial contender, I will never grow bored with that.

1. Take a closer look at those Twins teams. (Who won one postseason series and NO pennants in those 3 years). Their 2004 team included: Johan Santana (from the Astros system), Carlos Silva (Phillies), Kyle Lohse (Cubs), Terry Mulholland, Joe Nathan and Aaron Fultz (Giants), Joe Roa (Atlanta) - that's 54 wins and 45 saves that didn't come from the Twins' system. And the lineup: Henry Blanco & Jose Offerman (Dodgers), Shannon Stewart (Jays), Cristian Guzman (Yankees).

2. Ask Braves fans about 'perennial contenders'. Their attendance went from 2nd in the NL in '99 to 10th last year. After a decade plus of playoff teams and only one Championship, they're apparently getting pretty bored with it.

soxinem1
12-27-2005, 01:58 PM
I don't understand why the minors need to be the ones to grow the talent. What's wrong with how the Sox won this year? Williams completely overhauled his MLB roster with talented veterans instead of relying on unproven youngsters and viola... his team won 99 games. As Randar also stated, just because a guy wasn't drafted by the Sox or signed as an F/A originally by them, that doesn't mean he's not a home-grown talent. Garland is a prime example. He's spent his entire professional career sans his first year in the organization. Why is his two years in the Sox farm system overlooked while his one year with the Cubs supposedly more important?

I personally think Kenny Williams has the right approach. He runs the team with an organizational approach, but is most concerned with the product on the field in Chicago. He understands that one team cannot produce a player to fill every hole on a roster, and has made savvy moves at the Major League level the last few years to get it done. I'd even be willing to argue that the Sox should have made the play-offs in 2003 and had a legitimate chance to win the World Series in 2004 (before Frank and Maggs went down). He's put a play-off caliber team on the field for the Sox three years in a row by building a team from within and from without. I see no reason to change this approach, just because our farm system doesn't produce a futur Hall of Famer every twelve minutes.

You are correct, no team will develop every position from within, it's impossible. But if you look at teams that did produce a lot from within, the Orioles, Dodgers, Tigers, and Royals, to name a few, they fell into the free agent trap and have never recovered. LA recently has accented more on developing from within, but the other three, once known for great farm systems, have fallen totally flat.

There is nothing wrong with KW's way, and yes, he's made some savvy moves. But eventually these things will even out. Do you think teams will keep trading with the Sox for the Kevin Beirne's, Matt Guerrier's, Alan Levine's and Larry Thomas's without noticing that they have not amounted to much more than fringe type guys?

Producing Hall of Famers is not necessary, but producing productive major leaguers is.

I personally take pride in home grown players, it breeds a long term formula of success. The D-backs may have won a WS rather quickly, but look at what they did. They kept making trades for and signing older players and became losers in no time.

I only wish we had better success developing our own guys. Changing over 8-10 players a year will not work forever, and if the Sox ever start stinking up the place again, many of you will be calling for KW's head for not doing so.

Just look at the Braves roster, if you need further proof.

Get some guys who can spot talent like Larry Himes and the Sox will contend forever!!!!!!

maurice
12-27-2005, 02:48 PM
The Twins have been cranking out players for years, home grown at that.

Please apply your rather harsh criteria to the Twins system. Keep in mind that they won't get credit for Santana under your system. Then compare the Twins list to Ordonez, Lee, Cameron, Rowand, Buehrle, etc. Also keep in mind that the Twins had a series of extremely high draft picks, including the #1 overall pick in the draft.

To the extent that you're arguing that Ron Schuler is an idiot, I don't think you'll find too much disagreement around here.

maurice
12-27-2005, 02:53 PM
Producing Hall of Famers is not necessary, but producing productive major leaguers is.

Necessary to do what? Win the WS? We just did that.

The Braves run of playoff appearances (but not championships) relied heavily on non-Braves-prospects like Maddux and Smoltz.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-27-2005, 03:29 PM
One realistic fact is that MLB first round picks, unlike ALL the other sports, are not guaranteed anything, and have a very big probability of totally flopping. Who was the last Sox #1 pick to be even a somewhat successful major leaguer? Try Aaron Rowand, and that was over seven years ago. Jeff Liefer, Borchard (so far), Kip Wells (sorry, he hasn't lived up to the billing) and others were wasted picks.

Though I'm sure it would never happen, Larry Himes coming back to scout the amateurs would be a godsend. All of his drafts reaped really solid players. Not only did all his #1's become stars, his last draft, 1990 was probably the best in Sox history, and maybe one of the best ever in a single year. Check out these names:

Alex Fernandez, Bob Wickman, Robert Ellis, James Baldwin, Ray Durham, Rodney Bolton, and Jason Bere. While Ellis and Bolton didn't do much, Ellis threw bee-bee's at one time. Himes also drafted Rich Dotson and Roberto Hernandez with the Angels.

Ron Scheuler had some of the worst drafts in Sox history, and passed up guys like Johnny Damon, Charles Johnson, Jon Lieber, and Jason Giambi, to draft Eddie Pearson, then Torii Hunter, Scott Rolen, Jeff Suppan, and Jason Varitek to draft Scott Christman. And that was just in his first two years as GM. I know it's a crap shoot drafting, but if Himes did it, we could do it again.

So while KW has done well with trades and plucking minor leaguers from other teams, I just think it's time the Sox spend more effort in drafting their own guys. If they can recognize the talent in other organizations, and draft well too, we'd be annual contenders for eternity, and that should be the goal.

You keep posting the same thing over and over without addressing responding posts.

I stated (in bold so maybe you will notice this time)

1. It takes 4-5 years on average to develop a player from the draft to the point he is ready to be placed on a ML roster.

2. Kenny Williams has been on the job for 5 years. (Side note - He has produced one World Championship and three playoff series victories - four more than your beloved Twins).

3. Kenny's draft picks to date are either top prospects or 2006 starting candidates (Anderson, Sweeney, Owens, Fields) or were traded with others to acquire Vazquez and Garcia (Young & Reed).

It will take several more years to judge whether Kenny Williams drafts were successful or not. You cannot judge the 2001 - 2005 (and beyond) drafts until these players had time to reach and play in the majors.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Most of us agree with you Schueler didn't draft much during his long tenure. However, you need to give Kenny Williams the appropriate time to determine whether his drafts are as excellent as his trades - he may even be as good a drafter as he is a trader.

soxinem1
12-27-2005, 03:57 PM
Necessary to do what? Win the WS? We just did that.

The Braves run of playoff appearances (but not championships) relied heavily on non-Braves-prospects like Maddux and Smoltz.

Necessary to maintain competitive seasons.

I cannot understand the volatile responses to this thread. Some of you are making it sound like I'm saying "Okay, drop everything, start drafting for our future, youth, youth, youth...". And that's the farthest thing.

Let's put it this way. We all agree that when one achieves success doing it a certain way, others will be quick to copy. We saw that with McDonald's and the Extra Value Meal. Now every chain has some sort of variation of it.

In this case, we will not continue getting what we have in trades. Naming five good players produced by the Sox over a span of 15 years, geez, any team can do that!

Again, KW has been great getting guys from other organizations. But teams will not continue making these trades forever. Having another viable cog in the organization functioning well just makes it stronger. Why all the opposition?

Besides, having a stronger farm system makes us stronger as an organization. I don't know about all of you, but I want this team to be in the thick of it every year, and not be a one year wonder. Now that we have gotten over the hump, let's keep going.

Once you are on top, the only way is down, and it will happen eventually. The plan is to make the lean years few and not lengthy. But the goal of every team is to be in the thick of things as long as they can, and in the playoffs, if you make it, anything (except for the 2005 Padres) can happen.

soxinem1
12-27-2005, 04:02 PM
You keep posting the same thing over and over without addressing responding posts.

I stated (in bold so maybe you will notice this time)

1. It takes 4-5 years on average to develop a player from the draft to the point he is ready to be placed on a ML roster.

2. Kenny Williams has been on the job for 5 years. (Side note - He has produced one World Championship and three playoff series victories - four more than your beloved Twins).

3. Kenny's draft picks to date are either top prospects or 2006 starting candidates (Anderson, Sweeney, Owens, Fields) or were traded with others to acquire Vazquez and Garcia (Young & Reed).

It will take several more years to judge whether Kenny Williams drafts were successful or not. You cannot judge the 2001 - 2005 (and beyond) drafts until these players had time to reach and play in the majors.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Most of us agree with you Schueler didn't draft much during his long tenure. However, you need to give Kenny Williams the appropriate time to determine whether his drafts are as excellent as his trades - he may even be as good a drafter as he is a trader.

Apparently you are not reading, so I will bold and italicize.

I am saying that we have to produce from within to compliment KW's moves. Developing from within is another key to complimenting the strategy that won the World Series this year.

We will not be able to continue robbing other teams forever. THE SOX NEED TO DEVELOP MORE FROM WITHIN, IN ADDITION TO WHAT IS CURRENTLY WORKING. YOU DO RAISE A GOOD POINT, MOST OF KW'S DRAFTEES ARE JUST REACHING AA AND AAA. BUT OTHER THAN POSSIBLY A COUPLE OF'S AND THE TEN STARTS FROM MC CARTHY SO FAR, I DON'T THINK ANY OF THE TOP GUYS SINCE 2001 LOOK BETTER THAN BEIRNE, GUERRIER, MYETTE, ETC. I DO NOT SEE STUMM, MALONE, RING, AND HONEL IN THAT POSITIVE A LIGHT. I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT.

You are also interpreting this as a knock on Williams, when from the first comment in the thread I acknowledged his fine job. No knocks here. Again, this is just another important item added to his recipe of success, in my opinion.

Do any of you really think his pirating other organizations will last? Get real!

BTW, Twins are a rival, not beloved by me. But part of Ryan's theory is done by KW too.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-27-2005, 04:36 PM
Apparently you are not reading, so I will bold and italicize.

I am saying that we have to produce from within to compliment KW's moves. Developing from within is another key to complimenting the strategy that won the World Series this year.

You also stated:

The Sox drafted a ton of pitchers from 1999 to the present, but many of them seem to have not done too much.

Kenny Williams was hired in October 2000. His first draft was 2001. Players he drafted are just reaching AAA (2001 Short league, 2002 Low A, 2003 High A, 2004 AA, 2005 AAA).

Which is amplifying my point here. The Sox have not been producing in house, and the guys they do draft seem to go nowhere.

While I think most of us agree Schueler did not produce much over the years I think Kenny Williams has done a very good job with the draft and over the next several years we will see good major leaguers from these drafts.

One realistic fact is that MLB first round picks, unlike ALL the other sports, are not guaranteed anything, and have a very big probability of totally flopping. Who was the last Sox #1 pick to be even a somewhat successful major leaguer? Try Aaron Rowand, and that was over seven years ago. Jeff Liefer, Borchard (so far), Kip Wells (sorry, he hasn't lived up to the billing) and others were wasted picks.

None of these players were drafted by Kenny Williams. Most of us agree we will need to do better than this. However, the person responsible for the mess quoted above is long gone.

So while KW has done well with trades and plucking minor leaguers from other teams, I just think it's time the Sox spend more effort in drafting their own guys. If they can recognize the talent in other organizations, and draft well too, we'd be annual contenders for eternity, and that should be the goal.

I think Kenny Williams has done a good job with the four drafts he was GM. He selected several very good players:

Brian Anderson Age 24 next season, drafted in the first round in 2003. Projected opening day starter in center field.

Josh Fields Age 23 next season, drafted in the 1st round in 2004. Top rated 3rd base prospect.

Brandon McCarthy Age 22 next season, drafted in the 17th round in 2002. Will either be in our rotation in 2006 or 2007.

Ryan Sweeney Age 21 next season, drafted in the 2nd round 2003. Top rated OF prospect.

Another Kenny Williams pick

Jeremy Reed (2nd round 2002) flipped with Olivo and Morse for Freddy Garcia and Ben Davis. I still think Reed will turn out to be a good player - he gets on base, has speed and is a good fielder. The White Sox are very happy with their end of the deal as well.

My point, again, is that you can only do it KW's way for so long, and that I think it's time we joined the small list of perrenial contenders and make a sustained effort in developing our own players.

Once again in a few years I think "Kenny's way" will include contributions from his draft picks after they had a chance to reach and establish themselves as major leaguers. Kenny has done an excellent job dealing with the poor system he inherited after the 2000 season.


There is nothing wrong with KW's way, and yes, he's made some savvy moves. But eventually these things will even out. Do you think teams will keep trading with the Sox for the Kevin Beirne's, Matt Guerrier's, Alan Levine's and Larry Thomas's without noticing that they have not amounted to much more than fringe type guys?

Again, Kenny's way does not eschew the draft - his draft selections need time to develop and his first few drafts have already netted top prospects and or trading chits.


My point is Kenny Williams has always been underrated as a General Manager and just as he surprised most people with his savvy trades and free agent pickups, given time his draft picks which will soon reach the major leagues may also equal or even surpass most fans (and "experts") expectations.

soxinem1
12-27-2005, 04:50 PM
You also stated:



Kenny Williams was hired in October 2000. His first draft was 2001. Players he drafted are just reaching AAA (2001 Short league, 2002 Low A, 2003 High A, 2004 AA, 2005 AAA).



While I think most of us agree Schueler did not produce much over the years I think Kenny Williams has done a very good job with the draft and over the next several years we will see good major leaguers from these drafts.



None of these players were drafted by Kenny Williams. Most of us agree we will need to do better than this. However, the person responsible for the mess quoted above is long gone.



I think Kenny Williams has done a good job with the four drafts he was GM. He selected several very good players:

Brian Anderson Age 24 next season, drafted in the first round in 2003. Projected opening day starter in center field.

Josh Fields Age 23 next season, drafted in the 1st round in 2004. Top rated 3rd base prospect.

Brandon McCarthy Age 22 next season, drafted in the 17th round in 2002. Will either be in our rotation in 2006 or 2007.

Ryan Sweeney Age 21 next season, drafted in the 2nd round 2003. Top rated OF prospect.

Another Kenny Williams pick

Jeremy Reed (2nd round 2002) flipped with Olivo and Morse for Freddy Garcia and Ben Davis. I still think Reed will turn out to be a good player - he gets on base, has speed and is a good fielder. The White Sox are very happy with their end of the deal as well.



Once again in a few years I think "Kenny's way" will include contributions from his draft picks after they had a chance to reach and establish themselves as major leaguers. Kenny has done an excellent job dealing with the poor system he inherited after the 2000 season.




Again, Kenny's way does not eschew the draft - his draft selections need time to develop and his first few drafts have already netted top prospects and or trading chits.


My point is Kenny Williams has always been underrated as a General Manager and just as he surprised most people with his savvy trades and free agent pickups, given time his draft picks which will soon reach the major leagues may also equal or even surpass most fans (and "experts") expectations.

It sounds as if we are making the same point here, but from different angles. My thing is that we need to start relying more on our farm system to fill the ML roster, and that now is the time to do it, before we get stuck with the 2003 Tigers or the 2004 D-Backs.

You sound like you are agreeing, but are saying it is already in progress. Okay, I'll buy that. We'll have to check back in a few years.

And yes, I think KW was very under-rated. The problem now is that other GM's will be copying his formula, as a certain team on the north side is doing. having other resources available will not only cement KW's place among the elite GM's, but show we are not 'One Hit Wonders' either.

Daver
12-27-2005, 04:50 PM
You also stated:



Kenny Williams was hired in October 2000. His first draft was 2001. Players he drafted are just reaching AAA (2001 Short league, 2002 Low A, 2003 High A, 2004 AA, 2005 AAA).



While I think most of us agree Schueler did not produce much over the years I think Kenny Williams has done a very good job with the draft and over the next several years we will see good major leaguers from these drafts.



I think Kenny Williams has done a good job with the four drafts he was GM. He selected several very good players:

Brian Anderson Age 24 next season, drafted in the first round in 2003. Projected opening day starter in center field.

Josh Fields Age 23 next season, drafted in the 1st round in 2004. Top rated 3rd base prospect.

Brandon McCarthy Age 22 next season, drafted in the 17th round in 2002. Will either be in our rotation in 2006 or 2007.

Ryan Sweeney Age 21 next season, drafted in the 2nd round 2003. Top rated OF prospect.

Another Kenny Williams pick

Jeremy Reed (2nd round 2002) flipped with Olivo and Morse for Freddy Garcia and Ben Davis. I still think Reed will turn out to be a good player - he gets on base, has speed and is a good fielder. The White Sox are very happy with their end of the deal as well.


Kenny Williams took over the drafting responsibilities in 1999, before being named GM.

You left a lot of players off your short list, Robert Valido will probably replace Juan Uribe at SS at some point, Casey Rogowski will find a place as a 1b or DH, if not with the Sox than someone else via trade, there are others that I won't go into right now.

34rancher
12-27-2005, 05:40 PM
I believe Kip Wells is still with Pittsburgh. Olivo and Fogg will probably be picked up by somebody.
Anyone think Olivo would be a nice possible back-up? He loved it here, and we loved him. Any thoughts?

soxfan1983
12-27-2005, 08:04 PM
Anyone think Olivo would be a nice possible back-up? He loved it here, and we loved him. Any thoughts?

i was thinking that too:dtroll:

soxinem1
12-27-2005, 08:34 PM
Anyone think Olivo would be a nice possible back-up? He loved it here, and we loved him. Any thoughts?

I don't think so. I think manuel, Ozzie, and KW were upset at his lack of progress as a catcher and did not think he was coachable. Remember when they traded him they were left with Alomar and Burke, then had Ben Davis and his .091 average to salvage.

Saying that, I don't think Mo is in the plans. He actually played well in SD, I wonder why they cut him?

caulfield12
12-27-2005, 08:53 PM
I don't think so. I think manuel, Ozzie, and KW were upset at his lack of progress as a catcher and did not think he was coachable. Remember when they traded him they were left with Alomar and Burke, then had Ben Davis and his .091 average to salvage.

Saying that, I don't think Mo is in the plans. He actually played well in SD, I wonder why they cut him?

The funny thing is that catcher has always been the biggest historical weakness in our system. Karkovice was okay, but you had pretty much near disasters with Kurt Brown (drafted ahead of Bonds), Joel Skinner and Mark Johnson, just to name a few. It seems as if we went through a different FA "rent a catcher" for about five years in a row there in the mid to late 90's.

Today, it's still a problem. We lucked out with AJ at the major league level, but our best catching prospect by all accounts regressed this season, and he's got to be at least 3-4 years away from the big leagues.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-27-2005, 08:56 PM
Kenny Williams took over the drafting responsibilities in 1999, before being named GM.

You left a lot of players off your short list, Robert Valido will probably replace Juan Uribe at SS at some point, Casey Rogowski will find a place as a 1b or DH, if not with the Sox than someone else via trade, there are others that I won't go into right now.

Thanks for adding the additional top prospects to the already impressive list of players drafted by Kenny Williams.

As far as Kenny being responsible for the draft since 1999 (instead of 2001 forward) I didn't recall this but I'll defer to your knowledge. I know he was director of development for four seasons prior to being named GM and that he had some input.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-27-2005, 09:03 PM
It sounds as if we are making the same point here, but from different angles. My thing is that we need to start relying more on our farm system to fill the ML roster, and that now is the time to do it, before we get stuck with the 2003 Tigers or the 2004 D-Backs.

You sound like you are agreeing, but are saying it is already in progress. Okay, I'll buy that. We'll have to check back in a few years.

And yes, I think KW was very under-rated. The problem now is that other GM's will be copying his formula, as a certain team on the north side is doing. having other resources available will not only cement KW's place among the elite GM's, but show we are not 'One Hit Wonders' either.

I do agree with your points above. I think in time Kenny Williams will also prove to be above average drafting players, especially considering the lower draft positions held by the White Sox due to their above average (and Championship!) years.

I don't think the north side squad will win because the Tribune corporation does not have the incentive to win until fans stop coming to the park. Their main goals now are to add more seats, hiding their TV and Radio revenue from revenue sharing (estimated at $30 - $40 million undervalued on the Cubs "financials" meaning WGN's books are overvalued by the same amount) and hyping Wrigley Field and the "atmosphere" - pretty much their same game plan since they bought the team.

maurice
12-28-2005, 04:25 PM
Necessary to maintain competitive seasons.

KW has been extremely successful since taking over the team. He has zero losing seasons and Chicago's 1st WS championship in 88 years. All credible accounts indicate that the minor-league system is relatively stocked with talent, though he has traded highly-rated prospects. His work this offseason points to continued success in the near future. Things have never looked brighter. This is why you're not finding much agreement with your general argument.

Also, your specific assertions lack supporting data. When the lack of data is pointed out, you simply abandon the point. For example:
The Twins have been cranking out players for years, home grown at that.
Please apply your rather harsh criteria to the Twins system.
[crickets chirping]

Sorry, but WSI is not big on unsupported comments that compare the Sox unfavorably to the 3rd-place Twins and other inferior teams.

wilburaga
12-28-2005, 04:48 PM
FWIW, one original Sox draftee/signee not mentioned on this thread is our 12th round pick of the 1987 draft, one Wedsel Earl 'Buddy' Groom Jr, lost in the 1990 minor league draft, and still active today. (Black Jack was our first rounder in '87.)

W

soxinem1
12-28-2005, 11:27 PM
KW has been extremely successful since taking over the team. He has zero losing seasons and Chicago's 1st WS championship in 88 years. All credible accounts indicate that the minor-league system is relatively stocked with talent, though he has traded highly-rated prospects. His work this offseason points to continued success in the near future. Things have never looked brighter. This is why you're not finding much agreement with your general argument.

Also, your specific assertions lack supporting data. When the lack of data is pointed out, you simply abandon the point. For example:




Sorry, but WSI is not big on unsupported comments that compare the Sox unfavorably to the 3rd-place Twins and other inferior teams.


Not sure what you are getting at, I just think that producing more home grown players will help keep the team in the thick of things well into the future. Nothing I said is unsupported.

No team in ML history has had a sustained period of playoff appearances without producing a sizeable number of it's players from within, except for the Yankees in recent decades. Since the Sox do not and will not have the resources like they do, buying a new team is not an option.

But even the Yankees have produced Pettite, Jeter, Posada, Williams, Cano, Riviera, Soriano, and several mid-level guys like Nick Johnson and Juan Rivera for their pennant and WS winners.

Based on numbers, the Twins have no reason to be competitive, on paper. But Terry Ryan is a very good GM and if Pohlad would let him spend a few bucks, I'm sure he would make trades like KW to supplant what they produce from within.

John Scheurholz is also one of the best. As many of you have remaked countless times, the goal every year is to make it to the playoffs. Once you get in, anything can happen. What happens to this team every year is really against the law of averages.

But for the most part, these teams have produced a lot of their own guys, definitely more than the White Sox have. And both of them won a couple World Series Championships since we won our last one, so I am not so quick to label them inferior.

Think about that before you come up with these cocky 'we are kings of the hill' type answers. I am in non-stop joy right now, as I know you are, but I want this organization to remain in the top tier and stay there. The White Sox should stay up there as a class organization. When kids name Boston, New York, Chicago (AL) as the top ML teams for years to come, we will have arrived for good.

All I am saying, again, is that to remain a contender, we should have another viable option to keep ML talent on the roster. Let's see how KW's draft picks pan out the next few years. If we start producing some of our own, in addition to the creative efforts of the GM, we should be able to maintain one hell of a run on top.

maurice
12-29-2005, 02:28 PM
But for the most part, these teams have produced a lot of their own guys, definitely more than the White Sox have. And both of them won a couple World Series Championships since we won our last one, so I am not so quick to label them inferior.

We won our last championship THIS YEAR. Atlanta hasn't won in the past 10 years, and Minny hasn't won since 1991. The Braves obviously have been a good team since 1991, but the Twinks have won the division only 3 times, while the Sox have won the division 4 times. Meanwhile, the Twinks also had 8 losing seasons, and finished 4th or lower in the division all 8 times (earning a series of very high draft picks). The Sox have finished no lower than 3rd during the same time frame. Heck, the Twinks went 69-93 as recently as 2000. It's not like they've been a powerhouse since then, either. This year, they finished a distant 3rd. When they managed to make the playoffs, they were one-and-done. The Sox won 99 regular season games last year; the Twins haven't done that in 40 years.

For the third time, stop baldly asserting that the Twins are superior, and instead apply your rather harsh criteria to the Twins. I suppose you've already applied it to the Twins, and the results were less impressive than you anticipated, so you just keep ignoring the point.
:rolleyes:

Flight #24
12-29-2005, 02:42 PM
BUT OTHER THAN POSSIBLY A COUPLE OF'S AND THE TEN STARTS FROM MC CARTHY SO FAR, I DON'T THINK ANY OF THE TOP GUYS SINCE 2001 LOOK BETTER THAN BEIRNE, GUERRIER, MYETTE, ETC. I DO NOT SEE STUMM, MALONE, RING, AND HONEL IN THAT POSITIVE A LIGHT.

Heres's your problem. It's near impossible for prospects to "look better" than the crew you list. That's because when they were in A & AA, those guys looked pretty great, very comparable to the way that people looked at guys like McCarthy going into '05. That they didn't develop from that point doesn't change that fact, neither does it mean that no other top prospects will develop.

Now if you have more specific things that you're looking at, please elaborate. But so far your argument appears to amount to:
A) We've had highly touted prospects in the past who flopped
B) We have highly touted prospects now
C) Therefore our current highly touted prospects will flop again and we need to improve our farm system

Which is broken logic.

By the way, you also neglect to mention Gio Gonzalez, who was extremely highly rated, and the fact that Haigwood, Haeger, and a handful of others are also fairly highly rated.

soxinem1
12-30-2005, 03:01 PM
We won our last championship THIS YEAR. Atlanta hasn't won in the past 10 years, and Minny hasn't won since 1991. The Braves obviously have been a good team since 1991, but the Twinks have won the division only 3 times, while the Sox have won the division 4 times. Meanwhile, the Twinks also had 8 losing seasons, and finished 4th or lower in the division all 8 times (earning a series of very high draft picks). The Sox have finished no lower than 3rd during the same time frame. Heck, the Twinks went 69-93 as recently as 2000. It's not like they've been a powerhouse since then, either. This year, they finished a distant 3rd. When they managed to make the playoffs, they were one-and-done. The Sox won 99 regular season games last year; the Twins haven't done that in 40 years.

For the third time, stop baldly asserting that the Twins are superior, and instead apply your rather harsh criteria to the Twins. I suppose you've already applied it to the Twins, and the results were less impressive than you anticipated, so you just keep ignoring the point.
:rolleyes:

Uh, Pardon Me, but where did I EVER mention the Twins are superior to the Sox? I actually stated that Ryan needs to get a few bucks to spend out of Pohlad if they ever think they can finish the deal. So for the umpteenth time, quit distorting my message here.

And that draft position crap is just that. Atlanta and NYY have had crappy draft position for years. The only time ATL moves up is the last couple years, when they got an extra pick after losing a FA.

BTW, Sox have won the Central twice. Adding the AL West titles does not really apply to this situation, things are much different in baseball over the last 9-10 years in regards to salary.

I keep stating the same thing because you guys are not comprehending my point! Other teams will be copying what KW is doing, in fact, it's already being done. Additionally, you don't think teams will keep trading for 'Sox Prospects' when they keep ending up being good AAA or fringe players on a repeated basis?

You are making it sound like I am discrediting KW's work here, and that is not true! I am merely stating that while he is plotting future strategy it is also time to get the farm system going again producing in-house major league talent to REMAIN contenders. With a lively farm system producing some pitchers and position players, making a good trade here and there, and signing a good FA, that is the ultimate mix. My point is STILL, we haven't done the first one that well in recent years.

That way, we have another way to keep a sustained run at the top as major league elite teams. I have waited for this year my whole life, as you have, and would like for us to not only be continued to be named with elite major league teams, but to be in the thick of it evry year. And of course, to crush the cubs into third team status when the dust settles.

caulfield12
12-30-2005, 04:49 PM
Well, he was probably counting the White Sox as having won in 1983, 1993, 1994 (strike), 2000 and 2005.

Yeah, the Twins won those World Series in 1987 and 1991, but it would never have been possible without homefield advantage. They won all of their home games at the TwinkieDome and lost all the road games. Yeah, yeah, I know, two WS championships still count more than one...just like the Marlins have been more successful than the Braves if youi go by that measure.

The White Sox have a pretty good blueprint in place. We haven't had to give up McCarthy to add some depth to the roster. We have the bargaining chip of Contreras to replace the talent we lost in Gio and Haigwood OR add someone along the lines of Tejada to the roster (for Contreras and Uribe). The only question with that would be whether or not JR would go to $100 million as the payroll....

As far as the Twins go, they've developed what...Mauer and Morneau? Morneau has been a disappointment, Mauer a health concern with not as much power as advertised. Santana, Lohse and Silva came from outside the organization. Cuddyer...Restovich...Bartlett...Punto...Buchanan. ..Kubel, etc., what have they done?

We'll see with Liriano and Baker. Crain, Rincon, Romero, Balfour, etc., were strong bullpen additions...but the fact remains that they haven't produced the same type of talent as Radke, Milton, Guzman, AJ, Doug M., Rivas, Hunter, Jones, Koskie...as they did in the mid to late 90's. Granted, two of those guys came over from NY for Knoblauch.

maurice
12-30-2005, 05:20 PM
Uh, Pardon Me, but where did I EVER mention the Twins are superior to the Sox?

Right here:
But for the most part, [the Braves and the Twins] have produced a lot of their own guys, definitely more than the White Sox have. And both of them won a couple World Series Championships since we won our last one, so I am not so quick to label them inferior
This is your direct response to my comment that the Twins are an "inferior team[]" compared to the Sox.

So for the umpteenth time, quit distorting my message here.

A quote is not a "distortion."

And that draft position crap is just that. Atlanta and NYY have had crappy draft position for years.

Stop changing the subject. The point I am making (now for the 4th time and with no substantive response by you) is that the Twins system has not been more productive than the Sox system, given your restrictive criteria. Why are you afraid to provide factual support for your assertion by applying your criteria to the Twins system? Never mind; the answer is obvioius to anybody reading this thread.

BTW, the Twins best prospect in the past several years is Joe Mauer -- the first overall pick in the draft. What a coincidence!

BTW, Sox have won the Central twice. Adding the AL West titles does not really apply to this situation

Sure it does. You're the one who brought up the last Twins WS victory. Since then, the Sox have won the division 4 times, while the Twinks have won the division only 3 times. The Twinks also had 8 losing seasons, and finished 4th or lower in the division all 8 times. One time, they were awarded Joe Mauer.

Additionally, you don't think teams will keep trading for 'Sox Prospects' when they keep ending up being good AAA or fringe players on a repeated basis?

Teams apparently still find Sox prospects extremely attractive. That is not likely to change. After all, teams use their own scouts to evaluate talent. They don't rely on KW's assessment. Your question is better framed as: "You don't think teams will keep trading with the Sox when KW wins the trades on a repeated basis?" Then again, that would requrie an accurate and positive assessment of KW's ablity, so I suppose it's out of the question for you.

With a lively farm system producing some pitchers and position players, making a good trade here and there, and signing a good FA, that is the ultimate mix. My point is STILL, we haven't done the first one that well in recent years.

And my response is still: "Sure we have. You're methodology is crap and discredits your repeated claim that the Twins system is superior."

soxinem1
12-30-2005, 10:44 PM
Right here:

This is your direct response to my comment that the Twins are an "inferior team[]" compared to the Sox.



A quote is not a "distortion."



Stop changing the subject. The point I am making (now for the 4th time and with no substantive response by you) is that the Twins system has not been more productive than the Sox system, given your restrictive criteria. Why are you afraid to provide factual support for your assertion by applying your criteria to the Twins system? Never mind; the answer is obvioius to anybody reading this thread.

BTW, the Twins best prospect in the past several years is Joe Mauer -- the first overall pick in the draft. What a coincidence!



Sure it does. You're the one who brought up the last Twins WS victory. Since then, the Sox have won the division 4 times, while the Twinks have won the division only 3 times. The Twinks also had 8 losing seasons, and finished 4th or lower in the division all 8 times. One time, they were awarded Joe Mauer.



Teams apparently still find Sox prospects extremely attractive. That is not likely to change. After all, teams use their own scouts to evaluate talent. They don't rely on KW's assessment. Your question is better framed as: "You don't think teams will keep trading with the Sox when KW wins the trades on a repeated basis?" Then again, that would requrie an accurate and positive assessment of KW's ablity, so I suppose it's out of the question for you.


And my response is still: "Sure we have. You're methodology is crap and discredits your repeated claim that the Twins system is superior."

Now you take my statements out of context. I guess you didn't do to well in English comprehension. So since you like to distort quotes in your own interpretation of my points, let's clarify your misinterpretations with fact.

I stated that the Twins have produced more of their own players than the Sox, and that's it. Said the same thing about the Braves. Both of them are indesputable truths. But I never said they were superior teams or organizations, and never claimed they were superior to the White Sox. Find the quote that I said that makes that claim. I highlighted this area of their strength. You don't have to bother looking, it does not exist.

How does factually stating that Minnesota has produced more quality major leaguers than the Sox at all say that they are the superior team? Since we have to draw straws here with your silly quotes of my statements and your dim misinterpretation of my philosophy, at least get the facts correct.

And I cannot believe I have to waste the time putting you in check. Check their roster and the roster of other teams. Many more former Twins than former White Sox make up their rosters. And we are talking everyday position players, starters, and relievers, not guys like Aaron Myette, Kevin Bierne, or those type of guys. This does not say I am a Twins fan, are making them superior to the Sox, or saying they run their organization better. Enough said.

I'll give you the division title thing, it does apply. But the subject of draft position was raised by another poster who used it as a reason for the Sox not drafting better. I was amplifying the position of those two teams as proof that draft position does not mean everything.

But then you state I am not making an accurate or positive assessment of KW's performance as GM. Sorry again Maurice, never did anything but applaude his shrewdness. But teams will eventually notice that we are trading them guys who mostly have wound up as journeymen, and if it does not change, teams will shy away from Sox minor leaguers in future deals. Bet on it.

You know, you make it sound like I am some party crasher who looks for the bad in everything. It's just the opposite.

Let's break it down like this:

I look at teams as a four spoked wheel in their ways of acquiring players. One spoke is drafting and signing amateurs. The second is the trade market. The third is free agency. The fourth is waivers and minor league drafts. No team will be able to attain long range success using one of these spokes entirely, even the Yankees and Red Sox.

Thinking after the fact, I think the Angels may have been a better team to use as an example, as they have had more success over the recent past and have a team loaded with talent from within, but still in the position to buy guys like Colon and Guerrero.

Now, many teams boost themselves by mostly the second and third ways. They are easier, and have a smaller margin of error than relying totally on a farm system. But when teams find themselves old and past their prime (ala the Mariners of the last few years) they try to rebuild themselves. But it always happens when the team starts to stink. The teams get desperate, and it looks like the Mariners, for example, will have a third straight crummy year, because they are all of a sudden a franchise held hostage by age, lack of talent, and high contracts.

In the case of our beloved White Sox, me personally, have no desire to see them as flukes, flashes in the pan, or lucky. Having watched several teams in recent years achieve short term success buying players or trading for high-priced veterans before flopping, they all of a sudden look up and realize they have a farm system for ****.

I did initially overlook the fact that KW's draftees need to mature, so let's see how the next two years transpire.

But I believe, and believe I am right in saying so, that they should once again, as Larry Himes did in the late 80's, start concentrating on developing players from within to COMPLIMENT KW's effectiveness as a GM. There is nothing wrong with this, and my methodology is not crap. It is a perfectly logical belief. Since revenues are going to be higher in 2006, set a little more aside towards the amateurs. I believe KW and his staff recognize pro talent, now we need to get a guy like Himes who can pick the amateurs.

Yes, they can aquire minor leaguers like Jenks, Cotts, and Garland, but as a long range plan, I think all of these things will play into long term success for this team, not the reliance of other teams helping us out.

Do you see my point yet?

Daver
12-30-2005, 11:17 PM
Do you see my point yet?

No, I don't see your point, because you have changed it all over the place in this thread.

Kenny has built an outfeild, through the draft.

He has most of an infield in place, through the draft.

He spends prospect pitchers because no pitcher below AA is better than his coachability.

And yet you insist that the Sox are not trying to supply the team from within, and ignore the fact that they have not had a top ten pick in over ten years.

Do any of the players I am talking about play for the MLB club? No, one might.

Your minor league system is as good as what you can gain from it, be it players for your team, or trade material to acquire players, the end result is moot.

soxinem1
12-30-2005, 11:24 PM
No, I don't see your point, because you have changed it all over the place in this thread.

Kenny has built an outfeild, through the draft.

He has most of an infield in place, through the draft.

He spends prospect pitchers because no pitcher below AA is better than his coachability.

And yet you insist that the Sox are not trying to supply the team from within, and ignore the fact that they have not had a top ten pick in over ten years.

Do any of the players I am talking about play for the MLB club? No, one might.

Your minor league system is as good as what you can gain from it, be it players for your team, or trade material to acquire players, the end result is moot.

Sorry, haven't changed anything I said in any previous post in the thread. I'm done trying to clarify my position. Would be willing to discuss it over a beer, but I'm done with this.

But regarding the minor leaguers, we'll see.

cws05champ
01-02-2006, 05:46 PM
Drafting for baseball is such an inexact science, yes there is a lot of knowledge that does into it, but there is alos luck involved as well. Buerhle, what a 47th round pick... All the team in MLB could have had Albert Pujols 4 times in the draft before he was picked by the Cards.

maurice
01-03-2006, 05:28 PM
Now you take my statements out of context. I guess you didn't do to well in English comprehension. . . .

I'm not going to bother reading the rest of this and your other crap posts. As Daver already has pointed out, nobody's misrepresenting you. You just keep changing your statements when your previous statement gets obliterated. Note: when nobody thinks that a post makes sense, it's the fault of the writer, not the reader. Welcome to "ignore."

soxinem1
01-04-2006, 03:21 PM
I'm not going to bother reading the rest of this and your other crap posts. As Daver already has pointed out, nobody's misrepresenting you. You just keep changing your statements when your previous statement gets obliterated. Note: when nobody thinks that a post makes sense, it's the fault of the writer, not the reader. Welcome to "ignore."

Sorry, again, but I still would like to know when I ever said the Twins were superior to the Sox.

Looks like you went to Tilden, or fell asleep in comprehension class, because again, I changed or flip flopped nothing.

Tried to clarify, but they were responded to by you with ignorant comments, and a few little jabs. Looks like you may be the type of Sox fan that gives others such bad image of us, with your childish responses. If you disagree, fine, that's your opinionand you are entitled to it. I base mine on baseball history and what current teams use as a guideline for success. But if you want to make it personal, GFY.

Amazing how a supposed fan like you thinks they can gang up on someone for trying to think of the future of the team, while you trumpet your supposed expertise and think that Williams is some King Midas who will make it all work just because he's KW. Just because they win a World Series does not mean they will stay on top, and I got news for you, there's no guarantee for 2006 either, there are a TON of ????? with this team, so realize now that it's a constant battle, or in a NY minute we'll be the 2004 D-Backs if we don't prepare.

And you have a lot of crappy posts attached to your name, sir, including your previous responses in this thread. So if you have ideas how the Sox will maintain a playoff contending team well into the future, propose it. Until then, get off my ****ing back!

Steelrod
01-04-2006, 03:27 PM
And how many are making over a million bucks a year??
Since when is a million bucks a measure of talent?
Biddle made 2 million, never had a winning season, and I believe his career is over!

Steelrod
01-04-2006, 03:31 PM
You are correct, no team will develop every position from within, it's impossible. But if you look at teams that did produce a lot from within, the Orioles, Dodgers, Tigers, and Royals, to name a few, they fell into the free agent trap and have never recovered. LA recently has accented more on developing from within, but the other three, once known for great farm systems, have fallen totally flat.

There is nothing wrong with KW's way, and yes, he's made some savvy moves. But eventually these things will even out. Do you think teams will keep trading with the Sox for the Kevin Beirne's, Matt Guerrier's, Alan Levine's and Larry Thomas's without noticing that they have not amounted to much more than fringe type guys?

Producing Hall of Famers is not necessary, but producing productive major leaguers is.

I personally take pride in home grown players, it breeds a long term formula of success. The D-backs may have won a WS rather quickly, but look at what they did. They kept making trades for and signing older players and became losers in no time.

I only wish we had better success developing our own guys. Changing over 8-10 players a year will not work forever, and if the Sox ever start stinking up the place again, many of you will be calling for KW's head for not doing so.

Just look at the Braves roster, if you need further proof.

Get some guys who can spot talent like Larry Himes and the Sox will contend forever!!!!!!
I would suggest to you that Al Goldis, not Larry Hines, made those selections,,but whatever.

soxinem1
01-04-2006, 03:42 PM
I would suggest to you that Al Goldis, not Larry Hines, made those selections,,but whatever.

You are right, Himes brought Goldis in, and he was given the shoe right along with him in 1990. They worked well together. JR and Schueler could have kept him on, but did not.