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bobowhite
12-21-2005, 01:47 PM
I have an Angel fan friend who is still arguing over the strike call that Josh Paul mistook for an out call.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/12/16/gallery.obits2005/content.14.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/12/16/gallery.obits2005/content.14.html)


Notice that this umpire is giving the exact same call and yet Mickey Owen has clearly dropped the ball.

Stoky44
12-21-2005, 02:00 PM
Wow, talk about precedence.

CaptainBallz
12-21-2005, 02:11 PM
I have an Angel fan friend who is still arguing over the strike call that Josh Paul mistook for an out call.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/12/16/gallery.obits2005/content.14.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/12/16/gallery.obits2005/content.14.html)


Notice that this umpire is giving the exact same call and yet Mickey Owen has clearly dropped the ball.

Nice Find.

Iwritecode
12-21-2005, 02:16 PM
I have an Angel fan friend who is still arguing over the strike call that Josh Paul mistook for an out call.

Tell your friend that unless Josh Paul had eyes on the back of his catchers helmet, he didn't mistake the umps call for anything.

Arguement over.

bobowhite
12-21-2005, 02:38 PM
Tell your friend that unless Josh Paul had eyes on the back of his catchers helmet, he didn't mistake the umps call for anything.

Arguement over.

Paul actually did look around and see the call after standing up. He also looked briefly at the pitcher who could have indicated 'tag him' to JP, but didn't.

oeo
12-21-2005, 03:25 PM
Tell your friend he's an idiot and look at the replay. The ball clearly changes directions, and it wasn't magic. I don't care what anyone says, the ball did hit the ground...they take on what ever the media pounds into their heads.

batmanZoSo
12-21-2005, 05:17 PM
And on top of all that, we won it in 5. Few teams in MLB history would've stood a fighting chance against that pitching performance, much less the '05 Angels--regardless of umpire calls. Stop bitching.

SOX ADDICT '73
12-21-2005, 05:30 PM
What are you guys talking about? Our series with the Angels doesn't start until tonight...:redneck

Brian26
12-21-2005, 08:35 PM
I have an Angel fan friend who is still arguing over the strike call that Josh Paul mistook for an out call.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/12/16/gallery.obits2005/content.14.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/12/16/gallery.obits2005/content.14.html)


Notice that this umpire is giving the exact same call and yet Mickey Owen has clearly dropped the ball.

Outstanding work! :D: Someone needs to email that to Buck and McCarver.

SoxSpeed22
12-21-2005, 09:51 PM
The ball clearly changes directions, and it wasn't magic. I don't care what anyone says, the ball did hit the ground...they take on what ever the media pounds into their heads.http://www.chappellecenter.com/seasonone/episodes/images/110_3.jpg
"The ball was actually magical, magic does exist, we've known about this for over 2000 years."
Besides, I get to see it live tomorrow, I made my 'Josh Paul is an idiot' stand a while ago, and still do.

chaerulez
12-22-2005, 08:02 AM
I don't think the ball hit the ground and I think the umps did screw it up. But if the Angels were the better team they wouldn't have lost three straight games, at home. As their own manager said, "We didn't play at a high enough level to overcome that".

ondafarm
12-22-2005, 09:06 AM
Honestly, I don't know which way this one went and I was at the game. Two things I can say:

1) So what? This play put a runner at first with two outs. As the catcher I go out and say to the pitcher, "Forget that guy, three strikes on Crede and we'll get em in the next frame."

2) Even when I played in Japan, I heard coaches say, in English, to their catchers, "When in doubt, tag him out." Oddly, my manager never said it to me in English because he never spoke English to me unless we were absolutely alone.

ondafarm
12-22-2005, 09:16 AM
Actually, point 2 in my previous post isn't quite true.

Once, when we were having dinner during the off-season, he took me to a nice restaurant and there was one exceptionally cute waitress. She kept hovering about and between the entree and dessert, I got up to go to the bathroom. Well, see bull in china shop, for an appropriate description of me moving about these little Japanese restaurants. I accidently bumped into her and the tray she was carrying with two tea cups took a tumble. And silly old me, I caught both teacups and not the tray or the girl. She gets up, apologizes (Japanese thing) and picks up her tray which she holds in front of me. I realize too late the chance I just blew here and am standing a little dumbfounded just holding the teacups. My manager stands up, gestures with his hand and when I don't respond says, "When in doubt, tag her out." I realize what I've done and hand the teacups over in a tagging motion. :redface:

TornLabrum
12-22-2005, 09:21 AM
There is a shot in one of the replays from the first base side. Every time I see it, it appears that as the ball approaches Paul's mitt, a dark spot appears in the dirt. I saw it again the other night on TV, and saw the same thing.

ma-gaga
12-22-2005, 11:24 AM
I have an Angel fan friend who is still arguing over the strike call that Josh Paul mistook for an out call.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/12/16/gallery.obits2005/content.14.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/12/16/gallery.obits2005/content.14.html)


Notice that this umpire is giving the exact same call and yet Mickey Owen has clearly dropped the ball.

Geeze. Just tell him the better team won. Better pitching, better hitting, better defense.

ondafarm
12-22-2005, 01:27 PM
Geeze. Just tell him the better team won. Better pitching, better hitting, better defense.

Actually, it's a her.

You know what they say, "When in doubt, tag her out!!!"

(see above post.)

Vernam
12-22-2005, 04:40 PM
There is a shot in one of the replays from the first base side. Every time I see it, it appears that as the ball approaches Paul's mitt, a dark spot appears in the dirt. I saw it again the other night on TV, and saw the same thing.On further review, I'm positive I saw a dark spot appear on the back of Sciosia's drawers. :redneck

Seriously, I agree it's far from clear-cut that Paul caught it. The ball definitely changed directions either in his mitt (which is nearly impossible, physically) or bouncing off the ground.

Vernam

hsnterprize
12-22-2005, 05:19 PM
To tell you the truth, I'm still a little skeptical about whether or not Paul dropped the ball or not. Obviously, it's too inconclusive to draw a definite opinion on it...Sox fans say he dropped it, non-Sox fans say he caught it. But the thing that irks me the most is that people are still dwelling on it as if that one play cost the Angels the series. Let me remind all the nay-sayers out there that this was the end of game 2 of the ALCS...not game 6 or 7. If the Angels were to have won this series, then people wouldn't be talking about "the strikeout that wasn't" over and over again.

The Angels simply weren't good enough to beat the White Sox in this series...plain and simple. I think that's the best thing we Sox fans can tell anyone who still wants to argue whether or not Josh Paul "dropped" the 3rd strike or not.

Iwritecode
12-22-2005, 10:14 PM
I recorded the game tonight onto DVD and went to this controversial play. As I was trying to slow it down, I found out that my DVD play can play slow motion BACKWARDS.

It's much easier to see and proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, the ball hit the ground first.

I only wish I could show you guys...

Jerome
12-22-2005, 10:33 PM
I recorded the game tonight onto DVD and went to this controversial play. As I was trying to slow it down, I found out that my DVD play can play slow motion BACKWARDS.

It's much easier to see and proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, the ball hit the ground first.


YES!

And there was a drop third strike call in the previous inning, on Rowand I think, and Eddings makes the exact same motion. The angels should blame this one on Josh Paul, not Doug Eddings.

oeo
12-22-2005, 10:37 PM
To tell you the truth, I'm still a little skeptical about whether or not Paul dropped the ball or not. Obviously, it's too inconclusive to draw a definite opinion on it...Sox fans say he dropped it, non-Sox fans say he caught it. But the thing that irks me the most is that people are still dwelling on it as if that one play cost the Angels the series. Let me remind all the nay-sayers out there that this was the end of game 2 of the ALCS...not game 6 or 7. If the Angels were to have won this series, then people wouldn't be talking about "the strikeout that wasn't" over and over again.


Actually, that wasn't even the end of Game 2...Pablo still stole second in which Paul could not even make a throw and then Crede launches an 0-2 pitch to the left field wall. Either way, the Sox won the game fair and square.

slavko
12-22-2005, 11:03 PM
Tell your friend he's an idiot and look at the replay. The ball clearly changes directions, and it wasn't magic. I don't care what anyone says, the ball did hit the ground...they take on what ever the media pounds into their heads.

Either that or the ball hit the webbing which was flat to the ground and bounced up into the pocket. That would account for the two sounds which caused the ump to think the ball hit the ground first. The dark area under the glove where the ball hit in the front view could be the glove's shadow or the webbing. My opinion of the side view is that the trajectory of the ball is carrying it to glove, not ground. The dark spot in the dirt? The ball's shadow.

It's all moot. The catcher makes the tag like he's supposed to and the game goes on.

JohnBasedowYoda
12-22-2005, 11:11 PM
What are you guys talking about? Our series with the Angels doesn't start until tonight...:redneck


crap i missed it!

SoxSpeed22
12-22-2005, 11:31 PM
The angels should blame this one on Josh Paul, not Doug Eddings.From what I saw, the Angels were not blaming Eddings, the media was. Soscia handled it much better than 25+ of the other managers would have handled it.

oeo
12-22-2005, 11:50 PM
I recorded the game tonight onto DVD and went to this controversial play. As I was trying to slow it down, I found out that my DVD play can play slow motion BACKWARDS.

It's much easier to see and proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, the ball hit the ground first.

I only wish I could show you guys...
As Comcast is showing the the post game show from the game, they also played it backwards. You can DEFINATELY tell that the ball changed directions before it went into his mitt, which cancels out any idea that it was the webbing of his glove that caused the movement. McCarver and Buck were too busy absolutely knowing for sure that the ball was caught to even look closely at the ball and tell that it did indeed hit the ground.

Iwritecode
12-23-2005, 12:57 AM
One more thought...

Did anyone else notice that the ball mysteriously disappeared? I saw the thirdbaseman pick it put he never gave it to the umpires to inspect.

Guess he didn't want them to see that dirt mark on it...

ondafarm
12-23-2005, 12:58 PM
One more thought...

Did anyone else notice that the ball mysteriously disappeared? I saw the thirdbaseman pick it put he never gave it to the umpires to inspect.

Guess he didn't want them to see that dirt mark on it...

I was at the game and IIRC the firstbaseman flipped the ball into the dugout after AJ was already at first. I think he was expecting his coach to look at the ball and find no dirt marks on it. Unfortunately, there seems to have been one. A new ball went into play immediately afterwards.

TommyJohn
12-23-2005, 01:03 PM
It's all moot. The catcher makes the tag like he's supposed to and the game goes on.

No it doesn't! Don't you read the papers and blogs? If they strike out
A.J. and get the 3rd out, the Angels win the game 1-1! Infidel!

Iwritecode
12-23-2005, 01:14 PM
I was at the game and IIRC the firstbaseman flipped the ball into the dugout after AJ was already at first. I think he was expecting his coach to look at the ball and find no dirt marks on it. Unfortunately, there seems to have been one. A new ball went into play immediately afterwards.

I watched the replay and Erstad was at first. He kinda stood there dumbfounded when AJ started running to first. When the umpire called AJ safe Erstad started arguing with him.

Josh Paul flipped the ball towards the 3rd base side of the mound. I saw the thirdbasemen pick it up, but never saw what he did with it. The fact that they never asked to have to ball inspected seems to be the most incriminating action so far...

rookieroy
12-23-2005, 01:45 PM
Actually, that wasn't even the end of Game 2...Pablo still stole second in which Paul could not even make a throw and then Crede launches an 0-2 pitch to the left field wall. Either way, the Sox won the game fair and square.

Thank you oeo! I'm sick and tired of people saying this play cost them the game. It did not. Escobar did not hold Osuna on first, Paul bobbled his attempted throw to second and idiot Escobar throws an 0-2 meatball with the game on the line? Awful baseball on the Angels part. End of story. :angry:

Ol' No. 2
12-23-2005, 02:52 PM
We pretty much beat this to death after it happened. It's clear the ball bounced up, but it's also impossible to tell conclusively whether the webbing of his glove was under the ball when it bounced up. But the key point is: IT DOESN'T MATTER. The umpire doesn't have a center field view - he calls it like he sees it. The key is not whether it bounced up or not. They key is how the players reacted.

Also irrelevant is Eddings' motion. He was standing behind Paul so Paul couldn't have been relying on the motion, and besides, Paul rolled the ball to the mound BEFORE he made the motion.

Any decent catcher knows that you tag the batter out whenever it's close, just to make sure. Paul didn't. His mistake cost them the runner. And that, my friends, is all that really did matter.

FedEx227
12-23-2005, 03:37 PM
There was the one super-close up CF camera shot that they showed, that clearly shows the ball moving up into his glove.

Back and to the left....Back and to the left

SoxSpeed22
12-23-2005, 06:13 PM
There was the one super-close up CF camera shot that they showed, that clearly shows the ball moving up into his glove.I hope that the blame for Doug Eddings is reduced based on how difficult the call was. They would probably need an electron microscope.
http://www.sadgeezer.com/futurama/prof.jpg"No fair! You changed the outcome by measuring it!"

FedEx227
12-23-2005, 10:29 PM
Haha, ya... long story short, who cares. Get the next guy out, don't let Pablo steal on a no-throw, don't hang a 0-2 curve, simple as that.

ondafarm
12-24-2005, 10:29 AM
I watched the replay and Erstad was at first. He kinda stood there dumbfounded when AJ started running to first. When the umpire called AJ safe Erstad started arguing with him.

Josh Paul flipped the ball towards the 3rd base side of the mound. I saw the thirdbasemen pick it up, but never saw what he did with it. The fact that they never asked to have to ball inspected seems to be the most incriminating action so far...

Okay, it may have been the thirdbaseman who flipped the ball into the dugout to his coach.

kevin57
12-24-2005, 02:09 PM
Dropped third or no dropped third, doesn't matter.

The Sox staff had a 1.87 ERA for the Angels Series.

Ain't no way you're going to beat the White Sox with that kind of performance. Argument over.

soxfan13
12-28-2005, 11:38 AM
Very nice find. I have been arguing with a Cub fan for months now at a local watering hole, and his arguement is the umpire signaled him out. Now I have the proof LOL

tebman
12-28-2005, 11:46 AM
Haha, ya... long story short, who cares. Get the next guy out, don't let Pablo steal on a no-throw, don't hang a 0-2 curve, simple as that.
:thumbsup:
That about wraps it up!

I watched the replay of ALCS Game 2 on Comcast the other day and it frosted me again to hear McCarver and Buck gnashing their teeth over "controversy in Chicago," or how Scioscia "certainly has a reason to argue."

One call in one at-bat is exciting, but it takes 27 outs to win a ball game. Fortunately Scioscia understands this, but the sports-gasbag community apparently does not.

palehozenychicty
12-28-2005, 11:51 AM
I don't think the ball hit the ground and I think the umps did screw it up. But if the Angels were the better team they wouldn't have lost three straight games, at home. As their own manager said, "We didn't play at a high enough level to overcome that".



amen, brah. This is what I tell all the haters. If they were the better team, they would have won anyway. But they got to Cali flatter than an open soda can and are crying underneath the palm trees as we speak. My advice to the Angels: Get some offense.

Brewski
12-28-2005, 02:21 PM
Very nice find. I have been arguing with a Cub fan for months now at a local watering hole, and his arguement is the umpire signaled him out. Now I have the proof LOL

Aside from the futility of arguing with a Cub fan, Eddings used the same raised fist for all strikes during the game, preceeded by a swinging door motion of the right forearm for swinging strikes. He doesn't use the punch-out motion to distinguish "strike 3, you're out" like many other umps do. I'll bet he starts doing same next year.