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View Full Version : suntimes...kw: rotation mix could include six


caulfield12
12-21-2005, 07:25 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox21.html

I still can't believe McCarthy will pitch out of the pen...what would be even funnier is if they put Contreras or Garland in the pen because of poor springs...but I don't think that would ever happen.

It's much more likely that Buehrle, Garcia and Vazquez would be shut down for a month or so as a proactive preventive measure after the WBC to allow them to come back at their own pace in late April or early May.

This would allow OG to have an easier decision to make, based on the "real" results of the rotation through the first 4-6 weeks of the season.

mrwag
12-21-2005, 07:42 AM
I hope nobody gets hurt in this Classic stuff. I don't like the idea of our starters racking up innings before the season even starts.

caulfield12
12-21-2005, 07:47 AM
I hope nobody gets hurt in this Classic stuff. I don't like the idea of our starters racking up innings before the season even starts.

Yeah, it's going to be nerve-wracking for all Sox fans, and the season will not have even started. I just hope that no team suffers a season or career-ending injury to a pitcher because of this event...which is just another version of the Olympics designed to promote baseball in Asia, the Caribbean and Latin America.

Frater Perdurabo
12-21-2005, 08:21 AM
You can have a "five-man" rotation with six starters, keeping five guys on their normal rest but allowing each of them to skip a start approximately once per month. In this scenario, one guy (let's say it's Garcia, just to demonstrate this example, but it could be any of the six) would pitch every sixth day:

First time through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Vazquez, McCarthy
Second time through rotation: Garcia, Contreras, Garland, Vazquez, McCarthy (Buehrle gets skipped)
Third time through rotation: Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, Vazquez, McCarthy (Contreras gets skipped)
Fourth time through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Vazquez, McCarthy (Garland gets skipped)
Fifth time through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Garcia, McCarthy (Vazquez gets skipped)
Sixth time through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Vazquez, Garcia (McCarthy gets skipped)
Repeat cycle.....

This would have the effect of giving each player 5-6 fewer starts over the course of the season. The primary benefit is that it reduces the wear and tear on each pitcher, but it has the sneaky added bonus of reducing the number of starts Garland gets and therefore the number of wins he can get and therefore perhaps lowers his price on the free agent market!
:redneck

If for some reason a pitcher (most likely Garland) were to be traded in late July, there would be no negative impact to 4 of the 5 remaining starters, because those four already would have been on the five-day cycle anyway. They only thing they would lose would be the one off day they get every month or so. The only pitcher who would have to adjust would be the one who was pitching every sixth day in the first place; he'd have to adjust to a five-day schedule.

doublem23
12-21-2005, 08:24 AM
I still really don't see the hubbub over sticking McCarthy in the pen. Paint me suspicious and cynical, but I am not sold on this guy's ability to keep it together for a full MLB season, after watching him be effective for all of a month and half against MLB-quality hitting.

Garland spent the better part of his early career in the 'pen before finally materializing as a solid starter. Brandon is only 22 (jesus he's 2 months older than I am), he's still got many innings ahead of him, and with 5 MLB experienced pitchers ahead of him, I see no need to rush him into a potentially catastrophic situation.

Stoky44
12-21-2005, 11:46 AM
You can have a "five-man" rotation with six starters, keeping five guys on their normal rest but allowing each of them to skip a start approximately once per month. In this scenario, one guy (let's say it's Garcia, just to demonstrate this example, but it could be any of the six) would pitch every sixth day:

First time through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Vazquez, McCarthy
Second time through rotation: Garcia, Contreras, Garland, Vazquez, McCarthy (Buehrle gets skipped)
Third time through rotation: Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, Vazquez, McCarthy (Contreras gets skipped)
Fourth time through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Vazquez, McCarthy (Garland gets skipped)
Fifth time through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Garcia, McCarthy (Vazquez gets skipped)
Sixth time through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Vazquez, Garcia (McCarthy gets skipped)
Repeat cycle.....

This would have the effect of giving each player 5-6 fewer starts over the course of the season. The primary benefit is that it reduces the wear and tear on each pitcher
[/SIZE]

This is not a good option to me. Look Buehrle starts game 1 of the season and then does not pitch until game 11. So, he opens up on April 3 then does not pitch until April 15. Thats a long lay off. In theory, this would give the same amount of starts as a 6 man rotation. Only difference is instead of having 5 days off between starts, they have the normal 4 day rest and a 9 day layoff every 4th start. That long lay off scares me.

MRKARNO
12-21-2005, 12:16 PM
The best thing for McCarthy might be to get the Johan Santana treatment where he starts primarily out of the pen and works his way into the rotation with a few starts here and there. I think McCarthy has similar promise and with ML exposure from both the pen (maybe 2-3 innnings appearances in close games?) and the rotation (maybe 5-10 spot starts) could really help him to become an elite pitcher. Also, he would be helping out the White Sox in their only area of need (the bullpen) at this point. A 6 man rotation is a poor idea, but sticking McCarthy in there every so often if there is a doubleheader or many games in a row while primarily working out of the bullpen may be the best plan.

Another option is to just start the year doing just that, signing Contreras or Garland midseason and dealing the other before the deadline for a very good package. You normally cannot get pitchers during the season and Contreras/Garland would have immense value. I do fear that Garland's value is going to drop and that he has more trade value now, so if we could trade him now, that would work out well too.

Frater Perdurabo
12-21-2005, 12:47 PM
This is not a good option to me. Look Buehrle starts game 1 of the season and then does not pitch until game 11. So, he opens up on April 3 then does not pitch until April 15. Thats a long lay off. In theory, this would give the same amount of starts as a 6 man rotation. Only difference is instead of having 5 days off between starts, they have the normal 4 day rest and a 9 day layoff every 4th start. That long lay off scares me.

I agree that of all the Sox pitchers, Buehrle is the least likely to suffer a "tired arm" or get an arm injury, simply because he is a "soft-tosser." But my plan is flexible. If you don't want to give Buehrle a day off on the second swing through the rotation, start with Garcia (or whomever you want as the "sixth man", it really doesn't matter) replacing Contreras (or whomever else you have as the #2) the first time through. That way, Buehrle wouldn't be skipped until the fifth cycle. Furthermore, if Buehrle doesn't want a day off, don't skip him at all and give the #6 guy another day off. Or, let Buehrle (or whomever else doesn't want to be skipped) pitch from the bullpen on the day when they are scheduled to be skipped.

The whole premise of my plan, though, is to let the guys who need to skip a start, simply because they pitched deep into the 2005 playoffs, and deep into games in the 2005 regular and postseasons, and/or plan to pitch in the WBC, reduce the chance they will blow out their arm during the season.

Mickster
12-21-2005, 12:50 PM
It's much more likely that Buehrle, Garcia and Vazquez would be shut down for a month or so as a proactive preventive measure after the WBC to allow them to come back at their own pace in late April or early May.

Pitchers who will pitch in the WBC will not be throwing long innings, on short rest, etc... They will be throwing similar to what they would had they been in spring training rather than the WBC. There will be no reason to "shut them down" at all from what I have read.

slavko
12-21-2005, 06:12 PM
This is KW blowing smoke. If he's not trying to do a trade as we sit at our computers, I'd be very surprised. Doin' your job, buddy.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-21-2005, 06:27 PM
http://www.tvofyourlife.com/images/eightisenoughpic.gif

Mohoney
12-21-2005, 06:39 PM
This is KW blowing smoke. If he's not trying to do a trade as we sit at our computers, I'd be very surprised. Doin' your job, buddy.

I wouldn't be shocked with either course of action. McCarthy can really help this team in '06 by filling Vizcaino's vacated spot in the bullpen. Bullpen spots are open, and you can never count on EVERYBODY in your rotation going 200+ innings, although Kenny Williams has done the best job of any GM in baseball to assemble a rotation that has a bona fide chance to get 1000+ innings out of only 5 starters.

However, if McCarthy does start in the bullpen, I wouldn't mind if KW signed a journeyman guy to a minor league deal. That way, if a starter does get seriously hurt at some point and will miss significant time, we can throw a stopgap guy out there for 3 or 4 starts and send McCarthy to Charlotte to start games down there to get his arm stretched out. Then we can plug McCarthy in when he's ready and put the stopgap guy in the bullpen.

On the flip side, if a trade comes along for Garland where we get a return package that is too good for KW to pass up, I'm sure he will pull the trigger, just like you said. Otherwise, if GMs are trying to lowball us, a rental of Garland before a walk year would definitely be more valuable to us from an organizational standpoint than just trading Garland for whatever package comes along.

Either way, this is a great offseason so far. So many middle-market and small-market franchises blow championship-caliber teams up after they get a championship. What do we do? We find ways to get BETTER.

rowand33
12-21-2005, 06:53 PM
Judging by the 06-07 free agent class, I'd keep Garland and Contreras and try to win a world series again next year.

Worse case scenario you lose both of them and have the options of filling the hole with BMac + the signing of: Escobar, Pettite, Mulder, or Zito. Or even lesser, decent pitchers like: Ohka, Lidle, Marquis, Davis, David Wells, or Kerry Wood.


Keep em both, go for a repeat, worry about the 3-peat next offseason.

Edit: Not to mention if somebody get hurts or ends up sucking (I have confidence in Contreras and Garland, but they did both have career years, who knows?). Having 6 great pitchers can't hurt.

jabrch
12-21-2005, 07:04 PM
This is KW blowing smoke. If he's not trying to do a trade as we sit at our computers, I'd be very surprised.

ABSOLUTELY

What do you want him to say? "I have way too many SPs, someone come and screw me?"

It's posturing. He's got more leverage if other teams feel he has an alternate plan. He will run this up until he gets the right value for JG. If that means starting BM in the minors for a month, that's not even the worst thing in the world. He's gonna milk the Dodgers or the Angels for as much as possible to send em Garland. That's all this is.

Daver
12-21-2005, 07:04 PM
You can have a "five-man" rotation with six starters, keeping five guys on their normal rest but allowing each of them to skip a start approximately once per month. In this scenario, one guy (let's say it's Garcia, just to demonstrate this example, but it could be any of the six) would pitch every sixth day:

First time through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Vazquez, McCarthy
Second time through rotation: Garcia, Contreras, Garland, Vazquez, McCarthy (Buehrle gets skipped)
Third time through rotation: Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, Vazquez, McCarthy (Contreras gets skipped)
Fourth time through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Vazquez, McCarthy (Garland gets skipped)
Fifth time through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Garcia, McCarthy (Vazquez gets skipped)
Sixth time through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Vazquez, Garcia (McCarthy gets skipped)
Repeat cycle.....

This would have the effect of giving each player 5-6 fewer starts over the course of the season. The primary benefit is that it reduces the wear and tear on each pitcher, but it has the sneaky added bonus of reducing the number of starts Garland gets and therefore the number of wins he can get and therefore perhaps lowers his price on the free agent market!
:redneck

If for some reason a pitcher (most likely Garland) were to be traded in late July, there would be no negative impact to 4 of the 5 remaining starters, because those four already would have been on the five-day cycle anyway. They only thing they would lose would be the one off day they get every month or so. The only pitcher who would have to adjust would be the one who was pitching every sixth day in the first place; he'd have to adjust to a five-day schedule.


You're kidding right?

Pitchers get injured because they don't throw enough, and you want to sit them down for eleven days at a time?

Frater Perdurabo
12-21-2005, 08:03 PM
You're kidding right?

Pitchers get injured because they don't throw enough, and you want to sit them down for eleven days at a time?

Not to be impish or disrespectful, but then why is the prescription for a "tired arm" to have a pitcher skip a start (or two or three), if not throwing enough causes injuries? And why do pitchers often come back stronger after having skipped a start? Again, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but honestly want to know and hope that you will explain it to me.

Also, how would you manage the Sox pitching staff as presently constructed, assuming they don't trade anyone before the season begins (I really do want to know, and am asking because I respect your knowledge of the game). Thank you for any insights you can share.
:cool:

1951Campbell
12-21-2005, 08:06 PM
http://www.tvofyourlife.com/images/eightisenoughpic.gif

Nice.

Daver
12-21-2005, 08:36 PM
Not to be impish or disrespectful, but then why is the prescription for a "tired arm" to have a pitcher skip a start (or two or three), if not throwing enough causes injuries? And why do pitchers often come back stronger after having skipped a start? Again, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but honestly want to know and hope that you will explain it to me.

Also, how would you manage the Sox pitching staff as presently constructed, assuming they don't trade anyone before the season begins (I really do want to know, and am asking because I respect your knowledge of the game). Thank you for any insights you can share.
:cool:

Tired arm is caused from pitching too much, you keep this from happening by having your pitchers throw more, not pitch more, but throw more. Pitchers should throw everyday, short toss the day after a start, and after that, start with short toss while gradually increasing the distance from thirty to 75 feet, from flat ground, and not exceeding 75 throws. The day before a start should be a short session of short throw. Pitching a baseball is the most awkward thing you can do with a human shoulder and elbow, by keeping those muscles relaxed, and in tone, you make them stronger without overusing them. Tommy John can explain this much better than I can, but I have seen the results of this regimen work wonders in avoiding injury. Don Cooper does this somewhat, his pitchers do throw every day, but it is not a disciplined regimen, and some pitchers balk at doing it.

How would I manage the roatation as it sits right now?

I would tell Brandon he did a fine job in ST and to stay sharp in Charlotte in case someone gets hurt.

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2005, 08:05 AM
Tired arm is caused from pitching too much, you keep this from happening by having your pitchers throw more, not pitch more, but throw more. Pitchers should throw everyday, short toss the day after a start, and after that, start with short toss while gradually increasing the distance from thirty to 75 feet, from flat ground, and not exceeding 75 throws. The day before a start should be a short session of short throw. Pitching a baseball is the most awkward thing you can do with a human shoulder and elbow, by keeping those muscles relaxed, and in tone, you make them stronger without overusing them. Tommy John can explain this much better than I can, but I have seen the results of this regimen work wonders in avoiding injury. Don Cooper does this somewhat, his pitchers do throw every day, but it is not a disciplined regimen, and some pitchers balk at doing it.

How would I manage the roatation as it sits right now?

I would tell Brandon he did a fine job in ST and to stay sharp in Charlotte in case someone gets hurt.

Thank you very much, Daver, for explaining this to me. Now I understand.
:smile::bandance:

slavko
12-22-2005, 12:31 PM
ABSOLUTELY

What do you want him to say? "I have way too many SPs, someone come and screw me?"

It's posturing. He's got more leverage if other teams feel he has an alternate plan. He will run this up until he gets the right value for JG. If that means starting BM in the minors for a month, that's not even the worst thing in the world. He's gonna milk the Dodgers or the Angels for as much as possible to send em Garland. That's all this is.

Not that I'm congratulating you for agreeing with me, but you said it much better than I did. The concept is simple: player's agents do it all the time.