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billyvsox
12-20-2005, 11:10 PM
Frank
Carl
Aaron
Willie
Timo
El Duque
Marte
Vizcaino

Anyone else concerned about this (30% of the team!! is gone)

Maybe Gload - Garland and Crede also

Too much turnover??

gobears1987
12-20-2005, 11:12 PM
I don't think I've used this in months, but
:threadsucks
We are better off with our roster today.

TornLabrum
12-20-2005, 11:14 PM
Anyone else concerned about this (30% of the team!! is gone)

No, can't say as I am.

MarySwiss
12-20-2005, 11:17 PM
Frank
Carl
Aaron
Willie
Timo
El Duque
Marte
Vizcaino

Anyone else concerned about this (30% of the team!! is gone)

Maybe Gload - Garland and Crede also

Too much turnover??

I probably would've been concerned a few years ago. However, a good GM does what he has to do to keep his team competitive. So I think we should pay due homage to the guys who have moved on; they were a big part of a magical season. But the Sox have to look to the future. And that's what Kenny seems determined to do.

soxruleEP
12-20-2005, 11:18 PM
Exactly which of those players' replacements are not an upgrade?

Sentiment for Frank aside, KW has improved the team with all those changes.

chisoxfanatic
12-20-2005, 11:29 PM
Exactly which of those players' replacements are not an upgrade?

Sentiment for Frank aside, KW has improved the team with all those changes.

Exactly! Aside from Rowand, none of those players were huge "impact" players on this team during our magical season. We're sitting even better right now.

DumpJerry
12-20-2005, 11:29 PM
Anyone else concerned about this (30% of the team!! is gone)?
I'm sleeping like a baby tonight. Dreamin' of a White Sox repeat.

zmz723
12-20-2005, 11:46 PM
If we hadn't improved our team, then yes, i would be concerned

Lip Man 1
12-20-2005, 11:59 PM
Billy:

As I stated when I broke it down for you the last time you started a thread like this the only players that in a perfect world I'd still like to keep would have been Thomas, Rowand and Vizcaino. The others are basically a dime a dozen and have been replaced.

In fact the Sox roster is pretty well set. I count 22 guys basically a lock for the club. The only potential openings are for a 4th outfielder and two veteran bullpen arms (which frankly I hope Williams gets his rear end in gear and gets signed. The better ones available are being snatched up.)

Lip

soxfan1983
12-20-2005, 11:59 PM
this team has ONLY improved. and you cant count thomas into key players lost considering be barely played during the season or had a role in the playoffs.

btw, i just ordered my own comisky park seats. i cant to get them!:)

PicktoCLick72
12-21-2005, 12:31 AM
WE do have Kevin Walker waiting in the wings.

Crede_Fan
12-21-2005, 01:10 AM
I know this is kinda out there, but does anyone think that there could be a chance that no team signs Frank and he could end up back here on May 1? Kinda like Clemens might do with the Astros? I highly doubt it, but wondered what evryone else thought?

oeo
12-21-2005, 01:18 AM
Frank
Carl
Aaron
Willie
Timo
El Duque
Marte
Vizcaino

Anyone else concerned about this (30% of the team!! is gone)

Maybe Gload - Garland and Crede also

Too much turnover??

Replaced with:
Thome
Anderson/Owens
Mackowiak
Vazquez

The only thing I think we need is another bullpen arm or two...otherwise we are much better than last year.

Nellie_Fox
12-21-2005, 01:34 AM
this team has ONLY improved. and you cant count thomas into key players lost considering be barely played during the season or had a role in the playoffs.

btw, i just ordered my own comisky park seats. i cant to get them!:)Do you read over your posts before you click "submit reply?"

sox1970
12-21-2005, 06:40 AM
Frank
Carl
Aaron
Willie
Timo
El Duque
Marte
Vizcaino

Anyone else concerned about this (30% of the team!! is gone)

Maybe Gload - Garland and Crede also

Too much turnover??
You forgot Geoff Blum.

MadetoOrta
12-21-2005, 09:50 AM
I am not concerned and, in fact, am thrilled.

samram
12-21-2005, 10:21 AM
Frank
Carl
Aaron
Willie
Timo
El Duque
Marte
Vizcaino

Anyone else concerned about this (30% of the team!! is gone)

Maybe Gload - Garland and Crede also

Too much turnover??

You started this exact thread last week. Tell you what: Why don't you just get tapes of all of last season's games, regular season and playoffs, and watch one each night there's a game in 2006? That way, you can watch the exact same players this coming year without all the "concern" and excitement of the new season. Hell, that way, I'll bet they can even win the World Series again!

Dolanski
12-21-2005, 12:05 PM
Replaceable cogs. No one ever won a championship two years in a row bringing back the exact same team.

I don't exactly recall too many tears when we replaced Horace Grant with Rodman, or John Paxson with Steve Kerr. Different sport, but the same basic idea. Build around your core, replace the spare parts when necessary...

DaleJRFan
12-21-2005, 12:18 PM
WE do have Kevin Walker waiting in the wings.

Kevin Walker signed with the Rangers.

bobowhite
12-21-2005, 12:26 PM
Some GMs trade just to trade or release just to release.

In contrast, I believe that KW has been exceptionally fair to all of the players he has let go or traded. While I can say I will miss rooting for a few of them, winning another WS would relegate any sentimental activity to the back burner.

Frank Thomas was the best player I'll probably ever see swing a bat in a White Sox uniform, but this team has a very good chance of making another run and repeating. There is no room for sentimental keepsakes this year. I will cheer for Frank wherever he goes but my loyalty is to one team, the World Champion Chicago White Sox. ((Dog gone, that sounds soooo fine !!!!!!))

StockdaleForVeep
12-21-2005, 03:03 PM
Exactly! Aside from Rowand, none of those players were huge "impact" players on this team during our magical season. We're sitting even better right now.
Frank did not have a huge impact? Didnt belt out 12 homers in the span of a month on one leg, one of which off wickman in cleveland and kept us alive two extra innings, he also won us a 1-0 game against cleveland, so this man helped us win cruicial games against our top divisional foe. Take away those wins from thomas' clutch hitting,it changes the season

Sox also went 23-10 when he played

Yes thome is on paper is a terrifying hitter, i remember the dread of him playin for cleveland, but to say He's an improvement over thomas....how you figure? Yes thomas is old and an injury risk but Thome is not some 29 year old dazzling hitter. I believe he's 2 years younger than thomas and comin off serious elbow\back problems. Now frank was able to hit homeruns off one leg, I dont think Thome can hit homers with a faulty back\elbow

I will applaud if he does well, because it will be a good move, but dont justify it as it being better than thomas.

Beauty35thStreet
12-21-2005, 11:27 PM
Replaceable cogs. No one ever won a championship two years in a row bringing back the exact same team.

I don't exactly recall too many tears when we replaced Horace Grant with Rodman, or John Paxson with Steve Kerr. Different sport, but the same basic idea. Build around your core, replace the spare parts when necessary...

That is ridiculous! #1-Pax retired, he was never replaced by Steve Kerr, BJ Armstrong started ahead of him. Horace Grant left for 95-96 and was one of the reasons why they didn't beat the Magic that year! They still had MJ and lost to Shaq.

By the way, I think the Bulls won three years in a row with essentially the same team, and won another three years in a row with essentially the same team.

I don't disagree with your Sox analysis, but your reasoning is just so pinheadedly dumb.

Beauty35thStreet
12-21-2005, 11:35 PM
I will applaud if he does well, because it will be a good move, but dont justify it as it being better than thomas.

:gulp: :gulp: :gulp: Agreed! Although his ankle status is unknown, its not an upgrade if he plays. If anything, we lost a few million due to Thome's salary being approx 7 million per year, and likely we could've got Frank on the cheap. Besides, I find it a little ironic of KW to release 35 and replace him with someone else who has injury problems. However, I understand KW's reasoning and feel it is well thought out. I feel Kenny would've brought back Frank if he felt he could depend on him. Personally I think Frank is going to make Kenny say "I should've resigned him"

The Dude
12-21-2005, 11:53 PM
Frank
Carl
Aaron
Willie
Timo
El Duque
Marte
Vizcaino

Anyone else concerned about this (30% of the team!! is gone)

Maybe Gload - Garland and Crede also

Too much turnover?? Wow it is really getting crazy with all the negative vibes surrounding this offseason. It's as though no matter what happens, a lot of fans just wont ever be happy! Viz and Marte sucked, El Duque was horrible besides the game 3 alds, Timo..... enough said, Willie another bench scrub, Aaron- good player but got a better player in return, Carl- horrible in the #3 hole and just not that good, Frank- hurt. So in conclusion...the point of this thread is??????

ode to veeck
12-21-2005, 11:55 PM
can't wait for the season to even start before the storm clouds start to gather ...

:darkclouds:

MILTMAY5
12-22-2005, 12:57 AM
Frank
Carl
Aaron
Willie
Timo
El Duque
Marte
Vizcaino

Anyone else concerned about this (30% of the team!! is gone)

Maybe Gload - Garland and Crede also

Too much turnover??I think KW is making all the right moves, besides all he has to do is look to the Boston Red Sox for an example of how not to turn over a WS champion roster!

StockdaleForVeep
12-22-2005, 04:10 AM
:gulp: :gulp: :gulp: Agreed! Although his ankle status is unknown, its not an upgrade if he plays. If anything, we lost a few million due to Thome's salary being approx 7 million per year, and likely we could've got Frank on the cheap. Besides, I find it a little ironic of KW to release 35 and replace him with someone else who has injury problems. However, I understand KW's reasoning and feel it is well thought out. I feel Kenny would've brought back Frank if he felt he could depend on him. Personally I think Frank is going to make Kenny say "I should've resigned him"

Also is frank even ready to play? This season he didnt come back till before the break, so the same thing could happen, have frank come back, give a rest for thome against some left handers and we'll wait for the ankle and incentive laiden clauses to take effect

StockdaleForVeep
12-22-2005, 04:12 AM
Wow it is really getting crazy with all the negative vibes surrounding this offseason. It's as though no matter what happens, a lot of fans just wont ever be happy! Viz and Marte sucked, El Duque was horrible besides the game 3 alds, Timo..... enough said, Willie another bench scrub, Aaron- good player but got a better player in return, Carl- horrible in the #3 hole and just not that good, Frank- hurt. So in conclusion...the point of this thread is??????

Whats your factual reasoning behind vizcaino sucking. I didnt know a mid 3.00 era was a BAD THING! I guess mccarthy sucks too because the 1st time he got called up he got shelled horrendously since you are judging players on one half of their performances.

DenverSock
12-22-2005, 12:22 PM
You started this exact thread last week. Tell you what: Why don't you just get tapes of all of last season's games, regular season and playoffs, and watch one each night there's a game in 2006? That way, you can watch the exact same players this coming year without all the "concern" and excitement of the new season. Hell, that way, I'll bet they can even win the World Series again!


:roflmao: :rolling: :roflmao: :rolling:

But seriously, the only one I worry about is Rowand, and we got Thome for him. Eventually too many players could go to keep the team chemistry, but I don't think we're there yet.

mrwaffle
12-22-2005, 02:23 PM
That is ridiculous! #1-Pax retired, he was never replaced by Steve Kerr, BJ Armstrong started ahead of him. Horace Grant left for 95-96 and was one of the reasons why they didn't beat the Magic that year! They still had MJ and lost to Shaq.

By the way, I think the Bulls won three years in a row with essentially the same team, and won another three years in a row with essentially the same team.

I don't disagree with your Sox analysis, but your reasoning is just so pinheadedly dumb.


Actually, in 95-96 the Bulls went 72-10 and easily won the Championship that year beating the Shaq and the Magic along the way.

The Dude
12-22-2005, 02:28 PM
Whats your factual reasoning behind vizcaino sucking. I didnt know a mid 3.00 era was a BAD THING! I guess mccarthy sucks too because the 1st time he got called up he got shelled horrendously since you are judging players on one half of their performances.

Alright Viz didnt suck, i know he had a nice 2nd half in his appearances but wasnt a vital part of our pen because he basically wasnt needed much. He came in the mop up role and long relief and did his part. I think out of the pen, he is the easiest to replace. No need for the hostility veep!:cool:

BMac was a starter and did damn well besides his 3 or so early starts. Viz did **** in the first half and was easily the worst REGULAR reliever.

Stoky44
12-22-2005, 02:33 PM
Frank
Carl
Aaron
Willie
Timo
El Duque
Marte
Vizcaino

Anyone else concerned about this (30% of the team!! is gone)

Maybe Gload - Garland and Crede also

Too much turnover??
:chickenlittle
I agree losing 30% of your team could hurt, thats only if they are the big players on your team. Like losing Pedro and Lowe for the BoSox. If we lost Gar and Jose this year plus Rowand, then maybe I would be nervous.

Hitmen77
12-22-2005, 02:49 PM
Frank
Carl
Aaron
Willie
Timo
El Duque
Marte
Vizcaino

Anyone else concerned about this (30% of the team!! is gone)

Maybe Gload - Garland and Crede also

Too much turnover??

But we've upgraded most of these roster spots and haven't obviously downgraded at any of them.

Thome >>> 2005 version of Frank, Carl
Anderson <?> Aaron
Mackowiak >> Willie
Borchard <?> Timo
Vazquez >> El Duque
Marte, Vizcaino <?> TBD

The biggest concern for me out of these transactions is our middle relief strength since we have no one yet to replace the 2 relievers we traded.

DenverSock
12-22-2005, 02:59 PM
But we've upgraded most of these roster spots and haven't obviously downgraded at any of them.

Anderson <?> Aaron
Vazquez >> El Duque
Marte, Vizcaino <?> TBD

Agreed we've upgraded for the most part. I thought that El Duque could have been a good middle reliever but that Vazquez could be a good starter. Getting rid of Marte and Vizcaino is in itself an upgrade.

Beauty35thStreet
12-22-2005, 06:57 PM
MrWaffle's right, I made an oversight of the 95-96 year and mixed it up with 94-95. Regardless, the prior points that I made I'm sticking with. They lost to Shaq and a lot of people attributed to lack of a power forward.

Actually, in 95-96 the Bulls went 72-10 and easily won the Championship that year beating the Shaq and the Magic along the way.

I tend to think MJ got into a better groove becase he was having trouble in 94-95 if I remember correctly.

chaerulez
12-22-2005, 09:11 PM
Frank
Carl
Aaron
Willie
Timo
El Duque
Marte
Vizcaino

Anyone else concerned about this (30% of the team!! is gone)

Maybe Gload - Garland and Crede also

Too much turnover??

I don't know if you remember the 1998 Chicago Cubs, but after they had a 1998 Wild Card playoff appearance and got swept out, they didn't really do much to improve the team. They kept an aging Lance Johnson, they thought Gary Gaetti because of the hot two months he had for them that was a spark in the playoff race would last as a 40 yeard every day third basemen (that moved failed miserably). The only big move they made, and actually did work out, was bringing in Jon Lieber. But that was something that had to do because of the mishandling of Kerry Wood's arm he was gone for the year. But again, they relied that an old Kevin Tapani would be able to repeat a 19 game win season the year before and that didn't work. They tried to fill the holes in the rotation with their unproven minor league system, players such as Kyle Farnsworth or Micah Bowie. Or they used an old Terry Mulholland who did good in his relief role the year before but wasn't much when trust back into the rotation. So my question to you is would you rather have the Sox just bring back the majority of the roster and see how it works out again? Because I think the Cubs can tell you that doesn't work out to a winning formula.

Bucky F. Dent
12-22-2005, 09:21 PM
From a talent perspective we're better now than we were the night we won the Series. It'll be a question of chemistry now, and there is never any guarantee of how that will turn out.

Nellie_Fox
12-23-2005, 01:22 AM
But we've upgraded most of these roster spots and haven't obviously downgraded at any of them.

Thome >>> 2005 version of Frank, Carl So you compare a non-2005 Thome to 2005 Frank? Because the 2005 Thome was no great shakes.

Hitmen77
12-23-2005, 10:11 AM
So you compare a non-2005 Thome to 2005 Frank? Because the 2005 Thome was no great shakes.

True - this is an unfair comparison and I did ignore Thome's injury over Thomas's.

At issue here is whether the '06 Thome will be an upgrade over the '05 Everett/Thomas. Only time will tell whether the Sox made the right move here. I'll just say that I'm "cautiously optimistic" that the Sox made the right move because I believe that Thome is more likely to rebound from his 2005 setback and return to pre-injury form than Frank Thomas is.

This will be one of the big question marks of '06, but right now, without the benefit of hindsight, I'd say the Sox made the right move, greatly improved the DH position for '06 compared to '05, and have improved their chances to repeat in '06 by acquiring Thome.

We'll see beginning on April 2.....how many days until opening day again? :smile:

Nellie_Fox
12-24-2005, 01:38 AM
...I believe that Thome is more likely to rebound from his 2005 setback and return to pre-injury form than Frank Thomas is.That's just it. I'm not. It's not the elbow I'm concerned about, it's the back, and as far as I know nothing has been done about that. A back problem in a free-swinging 35 year old power hitter is highly unlikely to just go away, and is far more likely to get worse. Frank didn't let the ankle heal properly before rushing back to try to help the team. We'll see, but I'm far from convinced that it was the right move.

TomBradley72
12-26-2005, 02:34 PM
I think it's just the right blend of turnover/new blood that will be fighting for THEIR ring. The heart and soul of the White Sox is the starting rotation...which has been updgraded with replacing El Duque with Vasquez. The other weaknesses of the team during the regular season were DH (upgraded from Everett to Thome) and a back up 3B in case Crede's back acts up (upgraded from Blum to Machowiak)...and they now have much more balance from the left handed side of the plate. I hope they don't go much further....

Hitmen77
12-26-2005, 03:23 PM
That's just it. I'm not. It's not the elbow I'm concerned about, it's the back, and as far as I know nothing has been done about that. A back problem in a free-swinging 35 year old power hitter is highly unlikely to just go away, and is far more likely to get worse. Frank didn't let the ankle heal properly before rushing back to try to help the team. We'll see, but I'm far from convinced that it was the right move.

Good reason to be concerned about Thome. One of the big question marks for us going into '06.

On the otherhand, you are willing to overlook the potential seriousness of Frank's injury. I'm not convinced that his only problem was that he simply rushed back to try to help the team. He was out for about an entire year. Is that "rushing back"? Also, the Sox were in 1st place and on a roll at the time. You make it sound like Frank rushed back to bail out a sinking team.

soxfan1983
12-26-2005, 04:11 PM
:roflmao: :rolling: :roflmao: :rolling:

But seriously, the only one I worry about is Rowand, and we got Thome for him. Eventually too many players could go to keep the team chemistry, but I don't think we're there yet.


im with ya buddy....

i just hope rowand doesnt end up having animosity towards the sox down the road. as for losing rowand, it sucks... but outfielders are a dime a dozen.

you can always get an outfielder as we did with dye to replace that greedy jerk who left. i still want the sox to look into getting eric byrnes, i think he would be a great replacement/addition to the team. and we wouldn't have to give anyone up.