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View Full Version : Timo and Willie...THEY GONE!


Stoky44
12-20-2005, 10:32 AM
Per Bruce: The Sox are not offering arbitration to Timo or Willie. I think I would have tried to keep both, since we have a rookie CF, reason to keep Timo (vet. outfielder) and I like the speed of Willie.

TomBradley72
12-20-2005, 10:38 AM
Willie maybe (except I heard they asked him to play winter ball to improve at SS...and he said no). Timo: thanks for your help and the occasional big hit in the late innings...but .230 hitting OF's without exceptional speed just aren't that valuable.

Randar68
12-20-2005, 10:39 AM
Per Bruce: The Sox are not offering arbitration to Timo or Willie. I think I would have tried to keep both, since we have a rookie CF, reason to keep Timo (vet. outfielder) and I like the speed of Willie.

Uhhh, neither are CF'ers so what does it matter?

Hangar18
12-20-2005, 10:40 AM
Per Bruce: The Sox are not offering arbitration to Timo or Willie. I think I would have tried to keep both, since we have a rookie CF, reason to keep Timo (vet. outfielder) and I like the speed of Willie.

Is it me, or did the SOX suddenly get a lot slower just now

lizard6king6
12-20-2005, 10:41 AM
Im not surprised with this move but they wil be missed. I always like Willie and his speed but to be honest theres really no need for them. I was glad to have them when we did though.

Jjav829
12-20-2005, 10:41 AM
Per Bruce: The Sox are not offering arbitration to Timo or Willie. I think I would have tried to keep both, since we have a rookie CF, reason to keep Timo (vet. outfielder) and I like the speed of Willie.

Willie is expendable with Ozuna on the roster. They are both the same type of player, though Ozuna brings more versatility. There really is no room for Willie on the roster with Mackowiak and Ozuna taking up bench spots.

Borchard is probably the front-runner to take Timo's spot, which might not be a bad thing.

CHIsoxNation
12-20-2005, 10:42 AM
Is it me, or did the SOX suddenly get a lot slower just now

I don't necessarily think so. I think Ozuna will be great off the bench again this year. He has some pretty good speed and has shown you can steal some bases. I'll take Ozuna over Harris on the bench.

Stoky44
12-20-2005, 10:43 AM
Uhhh, neither are CF'ers so what does it matter?

Well Pods could move over to Cf for a few games and Timo can play RF. Willie can play CF. I would agree I think Timo is more expandable, I guess I just want to to keep the team together as much as possible. Anderson and Owens will take the CF job and Timo job. I still would have liked to keep Willie's speed, even though he is not the best base stealer.

caulfield12
12-20-2005, 10:44 AM
Is it me, or did the SOX suddenly get a lot slower just now

Not really...Anderson is faster than Rowand. Eventually, we'll replace the slower Dye with Anderson and add some more speed in CF.

We have Ozuna...Uribe can run a little, as well as Iguchi.

Pods and Owens (eventually) are the burners on the team.

There's no need for a Rodney McCray pinch/runner deluxe on this team.

Mr. White Sox
12-20-2005, 10:45 AM
Willie is expendable with Ozuna on the roster. They are both the same type of player, though Ozuna brings more versatility. There really is no room for Willie on the roster with Mackowiak and Ozuna taking up bench spots.

Borchard is probably the front-runner to take Timo's spot, which might not be a bad thing.
And Borchard actually has some speed, yes?
Aside from the Latin Dancing and Horrible Rapping, talents will not be missed. Willie will definitely find another team, and Timo might just because he was on the world champs last year.

CHIsoxNation
12-20-2005, 10:45 AM
Willie is expendable with Ozuna on the roster. They are both the same type of player, though Ozuna brings more versatility. There really is no room for Willie on the roster with Mackowiak and Ozuna taking up bench spots.

Borchard is probably the front-runner to take Timo's spot, which might not be a bad thing.

I agree, it's nice to have that switch hitting power hitter off the bench. Just the potential of him killing a ball another 500 feet is enough to scare most pitchers. Who knows, maybe he'll turn a corner this year and find himself playing a lot more than just a pinch hitter. But I would definitely take him over Timo at this point.

Stoky44
12-20-2005, 10:47 AM
Willie is expendable with Ozuna on the roster. They are both the same type of player, though Ozuna brings more versatility. There really is no room for Willie on the roster with Mackowiak and Ozuna taking up bench spots.

Borchard is probably the front-runner to take Timo's spot, which might not be a bad thing.


Great point. I think Ozuna may even be faster. Don't forget Willie was the winning run of the WS, which is probably what is jading my opinion of why we should keep Willie. This is exactly the reason why many of us would struggle to be GM's, we would let emotion make our choices.

Rocky Soprano
12-20-2005, 10:49 AM
Thank God Timo is gone!

Willie, I would of liked to seen him stay but I wont shed any tears.

By the way, I could of sworn I ran into Willie yesterday.
He was walking down Michigan Ave. I said hey Willie, he smiled and nodded.

Since it was so quick, I am not 100% sure it was him, but he did nod...

Stoky44
12-20-2005, 10:52 AM
Borchard is probably the front-runner to take Timo's spot, which might not be a bad thing.

I have a feeling Borchard may be gone too, I see Owens taking this open spot.

Baby Fisk
12-20-2005, 10:53 AM
By the way, I could of sworn I ran into Willie yesterday.
He was walking down Michigan Ave. I said hey Willie, he smiled and nodded.

Since it was so quick, I am not 100% sure it was him, but he did nod...
How big was his entourage?

caulfield12
12-20-2005, 10:54 AM
Great point. I think Ozuna may even be faster. Don't forget Willie was the winning run of the WS, which is probably what is jading my opinion of why we should keep Willie. This is exactly the reason why many of us would struggle to be GM's, we would let emotion make our choices.

We would have even more speed with Owens as the 4th outfielder, but the Sox cannot afford to let him rot on the bench....whereas they have nothing to lose with Joe B. sitting, because at this point they expect very little and anything he does would be a pleasant surprise...much more pleasant that simply releasing him, which still might happen depending on ST.

kravdog
12-20-2005, 10:56 AM
Is it me, or did the SOX suddenly get a lot slower just now

does it really matter how fast you are if you can't get a jump to save your life?

The Wall
12-20-2005, 11:02 AM
We would have even more speed with Owens as the 4th outfielder, but the Sox cannot afford to let him rot on the bench....whereas they have nothing to lose with Joe B. sitting, because at this point they expect very little and anything he does would be a pleasant surprise...much more pleasant that simply releasing him, which still might happen depending on ST.
That would be wasting a roster spot, no? Why would KW want Ozzie to ever do that, knowing how he has used everyone of his bench players optimally last year?

Hangar, I dont think we can answer that till the season actually starts. Yes, we lose 2 players who could run, but they did not run a whole lot. We dont know what Anderson can do to the running game, so the jury should be out on that one.

We need a bench and frontend help for bullpen.

Stoky44
12-20-2005, 11:03 AM
does it really matter how fast you are if you can't get a jump to save your life?

I agree Willie could not get a jump and was not good at stealing. However, speed can turn a single to a double, a double to triple, or score from first base on a hit where most would be stopped at third.

StockdaleForVeep
12-20-2005, 11:05 AM
More reasons why i feel we needed thomas off the bench

I dont have faith in the cluch power of rob macowiak

Rocky Soprano
12-20-2005, 11:07 AM
I agree Willie could not get a jump and was not good at stealing. However, speed can turn a single to a double, a double to triple, or score from first base on a hit where most would be stopped at third.

True, but you first have to hit the ball...

tebman
12-20-2005, 11:08 AM
Probably the right move for the Sox. Those guys have become superfluous with the other moves that have been made. Better that they try to get a chance to be starters somewhere.

Having said that, though, fasten your seatbelts for bafiarocks to respond to this. :duck:

Chicken Dinner
12-20-2005, 11:08 AM
I agree, it's nice to have that switch hitting power hitter off the bench. Just the potential of him killing a ball another 500 feet is enough to scare most pitchers. Who knows, maybe he'll turn a corner this year and find himself playing a lot more than just a pinch hitter. But I would definitely take him over Timo at this point.

A switch hitting power hitter that can't hit!! Borchard's carreer big league batting average is what???????

SOecks
12-20-2005, 11:09 AM
I'm indifferent on Timo but definately wanted to see Willie on the team next year. He did really well after being re-called late in the season and he's a really likeable guy. Good luck wherever you land Willie. GROUP 4, BABY!!!

Stoky44
12-20-2005, 11:09 AM
More reasons why i feel we needed thomas off the bench

I dont have faith in the cluch power of rob macowiak

I don't think Thomas would want to come off the bench, so its not like we didn't "keep" Frank. Getting Thome and signing PK made Thomas leave.

Stoky44
12-20-2005, 11:10 AM
True, but you first have to hit the ball...

See game 4 of WS.

spiffie
12-20-2005, 11:11 AM
Borchard is probably the front-runner to take Timo's spot, which might not be a bad thing.
:bundy

Good god anyone but LTP. Give me Owens. Give me Timo. Just keep Borchard off this team.

Chicken Dinner
12-20-2005, 11:13 AM
Does this mean we're going to have 2 more appreciation threads?? God help us.

tebman
12-20-2005, 11:15 AM
Does this mean we're going to have 2 more appreciation threads?? God help us.

:rolling:

Tragg
12-20-2005, 11:20 AM
Well I prefer Willie to Osuna
I prefer anyone to Timo.

Ozzie uses his entire roster. Owens and/or Borchard would get a lot of at bats and playing time.

soxinem1
12-20-2005, 11:22 AM
I think Harris is happy about this, he really wants to be a regular. I never thought this guy would be more than a backup from the first time I saw him. But there are a few teams that he would help. Plus, he's okay in CF and 2B, not a bad thing for many teams to have. But I think Ozuna's more of an IF type, he looks really out of place in the OF. Machoviak is a more sound OF.

As far as Timo's concerned, he was never fast steal-wise but having his arm in the OF was a big help on a few occasions. But playing time was going to be even more scarce than 2005, so they save a million by letting him go.

I'm all for Borchard at least getting a shot to be the backup OF, especially with all the money they have given him, maybe he can do something with the spotlight off of him. I think if this guy gets a shot he may even have some value, much the way Jeromy Burnitz did in the 90's when he was with Cleveland as their back up OF. Plus, having a very talented rookie rotting on the bench pinch running twice a week makes no sense.

To summarize, the Sox needed LH bats, they got Thome, Machoviak, and with Borchard, who hits better lefty, they definitely have more balance, on paper anyway.

MsSoxVixen22
12-20-2005, 11:22 AM
Willie gone? Uh-oh Bafia isn't gonna have anybody to scream about now! Timo, thanks for the help man!

Minnie Me
12-20-2005, 11:25 AM
We should make every attempt to keep Willie. He is a superstar in the rough. Fast, smart, and versitile. The true grinder in every sense. The best fielding 2b in the Sox organization. Please Kenny, keep Willie.

A. Cavatica
12-20-2005, 11:29 AM
We should make every attempt to keep Willie. He is a superstar in the rough. Fast, smart, and versitile. The true grinder in every sense. The best fielding 2b in the Sox organization. Please Kenny, keep Willie.

Willie, is that you?

tebman
12-20-2005, 11:31 AM
Willie, is that you?
No, it's bafiarocks speaking through a muzzle.

veeter
12-20-2005, 11:34 AM
I have a feeling Borchard may be gone too, I see Owens taking this open spot.I think this is true. They LOVE Owens. I do think, however, Borchard will get a fair shake in ST.

The Dude
12-20-2005, 11:35 AM
Wow...I have been waiting for this day this entire offseason! THis is the best way to describe my current feelings.:D::gulp::gulp:
http://static.flickr.com/33/65389567_9737b2a6b0_o.jpg

Madvora
12-20-2005, 11:53 AM
You can't have a guy who's allergic to champaign on this team. We've got so much more of that coming up in 2006.
They did it for Willie's own good.

SoxFan64
12-20-2005, 12:07 PM
You can't have a guy who's allergic to champaign on this team. We've got so much more of that coming up in 2006.
They did it for Willie's own good.

:rolling:

Rocky Soprano
12-20-2005, 12:10 PM
See game 4 of WS.

Yeah, one hit means I should not be looking at his carreer average.

I guess we should of kept Blumm because he hit a walk off homer in the WS?

The Dude
12-20-2005, 12:10 PM
Well you know what this thread means....we at WSI cant have the Timo/Willie sucks/rules threads anymore! And I'm anxiously awaiting the posts by TimoPerez and BafiaRocks on this thread topic.

The Dude
12-20-2005, 12:13 PM
Does this mean we're going to have 2 more appreciation threads?? God help us. How about a \\\\TEAL Wille and Timo appreciation thread ///TEAL and we can include all of our fondest memories of the couple clutch hits that have been deeply rooted in many WSIers hearts.

Baby Fisk
12-20-2005, 12:14 PM
And I'm anxiously awaiting the posts by TimoPerez and BafiaRocks on this thread topic.
Does WSI's server have the capacity for the expected amount of exclamation points in Bafiarocks's anticipated post on this topic?

williefan22
12-20-2005, 12:15 PM
We should make every attempt to keep Willie. He is a superstar in the rough. Fast, smart, and versitile. The true grinder in every sense. The best fielding 2b in the Sox organization. Please Kenny, keep Willie.

I agree, obviously I'm a willie fan but I still think he has a chance to be a very good second baseman. In a way its good for him to go to a new team where he will be able to play more but he'll be missed here. Everyone rips on these guys but without all of them, theres no way we would have won the world series, especially games 3 and 4

Rocky Soprano
12-20-2005, 12:18 PM
I agree, obviously I'm a willie fan but I still think he has a chance to be a very good second baseman. In a way its good for him to go to a new team where he will be able to play more but he'll be missed here. Everyone rips on these guys but without all of them, theres no way we would have won the world series, especially games 3 and 4

I think you forgot to use teal, especially for the last part of your post.

TheVulture
12-20-2005, 12:18 PM
There really is no room for Willie on the roster with Mackowiak and Ozuna taking up bench spots.


How so? If there's five spots you've got Mack, Ozuna, Widger, Borchard/OFer, and ???. Willie seems like a good option to me, since he is versatile, can play a decent OF in a pinch and of course the speed factor. I guess you could go with a 3d catcher or 12th pitcher, but otherwise Willie seems like as good as option as any for the 14th man on the bench. I'd think with Willie, Mack and Ozuna, you'd have one of the best and most versatile benches around.

williefan22
12-20-2005, 12:20 PM
I think you forgot to use teal, especially for the last part of your post.
no, I'm actually serious. You are all so pumped about Rob Mackowiak but you know what, he is utility player just like pablo, willie and timo.

tebman
12-20-2005, 12:22 PM
I agree, obviously I'm a willie fan but I still think he has a chance to be a very good second baseman. In a way its good for him to go to a new team where he will be able to play more but he'll be missed here. Everyone rips on these guys but without all of them, theres no way we would have won the world series, especially games 3 and 4
Well, I don't know about not winning the Series without those guys, but your first point is well taken. Willie and Timo are on a team that doesn't need their skills anymore. They're not bad ballplayers, and in fact Harris is a pretty good secondbaseman, it's just that there's not a good fit for them on the current roster. Better that they get a chance to be starters on another team, which is what every professional athlete wants.

Dancin' Homer
12-20-2005, 12:23 PM
Well Pods could move over to Cf for a few games and Timo can play RF. Willie can play CF. I would agree I think Timo is more expandable, I guess I just want to to keep the team together as much as possible. Anderson and Owens will take the CF job and Timo job. I still would have liked to keep Willie's speed, even though he is not the best base stealer.

I hate Timo now and I think I would hate a bigger Timo even more.:tongue:

USE TWO HANDS TIMO!

williefan22
12-20-2005, 12:24 PM
Well, I don't know about not winning the Series without those guys, but your first point is well taken. Willie and Timo are on a team that doesn't need their skills anymore. They're not bad ballplayers, and in fact Harris is a pretty good secondbaseman, it's just that there's not a good fit for them on the current roster. Better that they get a chance to be starters on another team, which is what every professional athlete wants.
See this poster is nice. No need to rip every single bench player that ever leaves the sox just because they don't go 34 for 35 off the bench

The Dude
12-20-2005, 12:24 PM
no, I'm actually serious. You are all so pumped about Rob Mackowiak but you know what, he is utility player just like pablo, willie and timo.

And a much more versatile and better player overall than all of them!!!!

I wouldnt consider Timo or Willie utility b/c Timo could only play corner OF and played one game at 1st and made a costly error. Willie, well he showed he can only play 2B and barely CF.

I really would love to have some of what you've been smoking.

Ol' No. 2
12-20-2005, 12:25 PM
How so? If there's five spots you've got Mack, Ozuna, Widger, Borchard/OFer, and ???. Willie seems like a good option to me, since he is versatile, can play a decent OF in a pinch and of course the speed factor. I guess you could go with a 3d catcher or 12th pitcher, but otherwise Willie seems like as good as option as any for the 14th man on the bench. I'd think with Willie, Mack and Ozuna, you'd have one of the best and most versatile benches around.You don't have 5 spots. They'll almost certainly carry 12 pitchers, which means only 4 bench spots.

The Dude
12-20-2005, 12:26 PM
See this poster is nice. No need to rip every single bench player that ever leaves the sox just because they don't go 34 for 35 off the bench

I just searched your posts and almost all of the 25 posts are about Willie Harris. I was wondering....are you a Sox fan or just a Willie Harris fan?

KRS1
12-20-2005, 12:27 PM
So how long until the Marlins pick up Willie? I honestly think wee-one is gonna be a great player for someone this season, I wish we woulda kept him around til ST at least and gotten some value outta him then.

Doesnt the division get first dibs on him?

Chicken Dinner
12-20-2005, 12:33 PM
Willie came up along with Brian Roberts. One of the two had talent and one didn't. Mmmmm, which one would you take??

Ol' No. 2
12-20-2005, 12:33 PM
So how long until the Marlins pick up Willie? I honestly think wee-one is gonna be a great player for someone this season, I wish we woulda kept him around til ST at least and gotten some value outta him then.

Doesnt the division get first dibs on him?Nope. He becomes a non-tendered free agent. I agree that he's a good fit with the Marlins, although a little pricey for them. I don't think he'll be a great player, but he'll be a servicable starter good enough to start on a lot of teams.

williefan22
12-20-2005, 12:39 PM
I just searched your posts and almost all of the 25 posts are about Willie Harris. I was wondering....are you a Sox fan or just a Willie Harris fan?
Haha yeah, for some reason ever since willie was traded from the o's i've been a huge fan and rarely anyone says anything nice about him so i back him up.

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 12:40 PM
I hate to see Willie go. IMO, the kid can hit. He has a good eye. People think he can't run, but his SB% is awesome. He's the best 2nd baseman on our team. It's for the best though. He deserves to play everyday. I think he'll have a nice career somewhere. He reminds me of a better hitting Womack. He's not quite the base stealer, but has a better glove.


Owens intrigues me. At the beginning of the year, Shines said that there's no way he could hit in AA. He hit well. Calling him up would be a mistake though. From everything I've read, he's still real green.

mweflen
12-20-2005, 12:46 PM
Where's the **official** appreciation thread?

btw, i'd take Mackowiack and Ozuna over Willie and Timo any day of the week, all day long. Absolute no-brainer.

The Racehorse
12-20-2005, 12:50 PM
I hate to see Willie go. IMO, the kid can hit. He has a good eye.

If Willie could hit, Tadahito Iguchi wouldn't be on the team. :?:

BRDSR
12-20-2005, 12:54 PM
Has anyone heard from bafiarocks? I didn't see her post here. Is there such a thing as a WSI enforced suicide watch? Frankly, I'm a little nervous.

KRS1
12-20-2005, 12:54 PM
If Willie could hit, Tadahito Iguchi wouldn't be on the team. :?:

Not to mention Pods, Willie was going to be our lead-off hitter until he started sucking up the joint. Maybe in a way Willie is the reason we won the WS, we knew he couldnt hit as first in the order so we got pods, and we knew he wasnt a very good contact guy so we got Gooch. Two instrumental parts of our offense came b/c Willie was so bad, once again thanks Willie for making us waste two seasons with you before we realized you werent what we needed.

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 12:57 PM
If Willie could hit, Tadahito Iguchi wouldn't be on the team. :?:

$10 says he hits .275 and has a more productive year than Tads sans power.

He's going to find an environment that's conducisve to playing well. Somebody's going to say, "It's your job." When he gets comfortable, he's going to produce. I don't care what he hit in our uniform. I'm basing all of this on his approach. He's got a real good eye and hits the other way with authority, albeit "authority" for a guy without much power to speak of.

I'm not saying he's more valuable than Iguchi. Iguchi's value comes with intangibles and smart baseball. He will have a higher .BA, .OBP and SB numbers though. All while playing a better 2nd base.

soltrain21
12-20-2005, 12:58 PM
Has anyone heard from bafiarocks? I didn't see her post here. Is there such a thing as a WSI enforced suicide watch? Frankly, I'm a little nervous.


She is in school. Or wait, school is on holiday break....




Bafia...don't do anything you will regret. There are nicer men than Willie Harris out there.

Baby Fisk
12-20-2005, 01:04 PM
She is in school. Or wait, school is on holiday break....




Bafia...don't do anything you will regret. There are nicer men than Willie Harris out there.
The exclamation points! Brace yourselves for the exclamation points!

Tragg
12-20-2005, 01:06 PM
Who can play back-up shortstop for this team?
It seemed to me Willie's O was improved.
Why Ozuna instead of Willie?

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 01:07 PM
Who can play back-up shortstop for this team?
It seemed to me Willie's O was improved.
Why Ozuna instead of Willie?

Ozuna plays more positions.

Palehose13
12-20-2005, 01:07 PM
She is in school. Or wait, school is on holiday break....




Bafia...don't do anything you will regret. There are nicer men than Willie Harris out there.

I'm not on break yet. We have finals the next two days. She might still be in school.

Jerko
12-20-2005, 01:08 PM
Poor bafiarocks. So close to the holidays too. Maybe Willie and Jimenez will wind up on the same team somewhere, somehow, and at least she can have a new #2 fave team.

bobowhite
12-20-2005, 01:10 PM
$10 says he hits .275 and has a more productive year than Tads sans power.

He's going to find an environment that's conducisve to playing well. Somebody's going to say, "It's your job." When he gets comfortable, he's going to produce. I don't care what he hit in our uniform. I'm basing all of this on his approach. He's got a real good eye and hits the other way with authority, albeit "authority" for a guy without much power to speak of.

I'm not saying he's more valuable than Iguchi. Iguchi's value comes with intangibles and smart baseball. He will have a higher .BA, .OBP and SB numbers though. All while playing a better 2nd base.

I will gladly take your money on that.

Iguchi plays a far better second base than Willie, hands down.

I agree that Willie will be picked up by someone, and he may even hit .275 as a regular second-baseman, but not more productive than Iguchi.

santo=dorf
12-20-2005, 01:12 PM
Ozuna plays more positions.

Ozuna is also right handed and gives Ozzie another option for leadoff against left handed pitchers.

The Racehorse
12-20-2005, 01:14 PM
I'm not on break yet. We have finals the next two days. She might still be in school.
... when she gets out of class, goes home and logs on-line, we'll all have to brace ourselves for hurricane-bafiarocks03-2005...

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 01:15 PM
Iguchi plays a far better second base than Willie, hands down.



I'm sorry but, Willie's a much better 2nd baseman. My offensive evaluation is a stretch. I'll give you that. The defense though; there's no question Willie's in a different league defensively. He can do so many more things. He goes back better. He has more range, laterally. He has a better arm and turns the DP better.

Ol' No. 2
12-20-2005, 01:19 PM
I'm sorry but, Willie's a much better 2nd baseman. My offensive evaluation is a stretch. I'll give you that. The defense though; there's no question Willie's in a different league defensively. He can do so many more things. He goes back better. He has more range, laterally. He has a better arm and turns the DP better.I was with you right up until the end. Willie has problems with the pivot. But Willie is much quicker, has better range and has a stronger arm. Iguchi still has problems going back for popups.

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 01:22 PM
I was with you right up until the end. Willie has problems with the pivot. But Willie is much quicker, has better range and has a stronger arm. Iguchi still has problems going back for popups.

Iguchi turns the DP more smoothly. He may be quicker, but Willie's raw ability and speed make up for it. I see what you're saying though and somewhat agree. I'm strictly going from memory here. I'll give you the DP. :D:

kittle42
12-20-2005, 01:23 PM
Thank god.

These are great moves.

:supernana: :bandance: :bandance: :supernana:

ilsox7
12-20-2005, 01:25 PM
Thank god.

These are great moves.

:supernana: :bandance: :bandance: :supernana:

Hallelujah!

I cannot believe Willie and Timo have so many defenders. They're not that great and are easily replaceable.

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 01:27 PM
Thank god.

These are great moves.

:supernana: :bandance: :bandance: :supernana:
This is what I don't get. Granted, Timo sucked. The only quality he brought was a strong arm and the occasional clutch hit.

Willie was a quality speed/.obp guy off the bench. There were times when he struggled to get the bunt down, but everybody's beloved Rowand couldn't bunt for ****. I think it's valuable for a manager to have a LH/speed/obp/good glove guy coming off the bench, in late inning situations.

I'm starting to sound like the FODJ's. :redface:

I think people let the fact that they didn't like Willie, as a person, get in the way of a good evaluation. This has been a trend here lately.

KRS1
12-20-2005, 01:28 PM
Who can play back-up shortstop for this team?
It seemed to me Willie's O was improved.
Why Ozuna instead of Willie?

Agreed completely, but I think Willie went to KW asking for this and being an org. that doesnt take players hostage we complied. I still think we shoulda said tough ****, we traded a player for you your ours, but then again I'm not a class act like Kenny. Willie woulda been a nice option for a back-up infielder at 2b, and SS as wellas a CF, but thats not what he wanted so I guess we just folded.

Baby Fisk
12-20-2005, 01:31 PM
... when she gets out of class, goes home and logs on-line, we'll all have to brace ourselves for hurricane-bafiarocks03-2005...
Anderson Cooper is en route.

voodoochile
12-20-2005, 01:31 PM
Is it me, or did the SOX suddenly get a lot slower just now

Well, the bench did...

I think Mackowiak made both of these guys expendable. There are other guys who can do what Timo and Willie did, better guys to keep on the bench who can do a better job PH and as good a job defensively.

Exit_Only
12-20-2005, 01:35 PM
You don't have 5 spots. They'll almost certainly carry 12 pitchers, which means only 4 bench spots.

Why will the Sox almost certainly carry 12 pitchers?

You realize they carried 11 throughout the entire 2005 season, right?

Rocky Soprano
12-20-2005, 01:36 PM
I think people let the fact that they didn't like Willie, as a person, get in the way of a good evaluation. This has been a trend here lately.

I actually like Willie as a person. Last year at SoxFest he had his arm around me and my brother for some time and bought us a few drinks.

I think he is a good bench player but very easily replaced.

Chicken Dinner
12-20-2005, 01:39 PM
Willie was a quality speed/.obp guy off the bench. There were times when he struggled to get the bunt down, but everybody's beloved Rowand couldn't bunt for ****. I think it's valuable for a manager to have a LH/speed/obp/good glove guy coming off the bench, in late inning situations.

I'm starting to sound like the FODJ's. :redface:

I think people let the fact that they didn't like Willie, as a person, get in the way of a good evaluation. This has been a trend here lately.
That's why they sent Willie down to Charlotte and got Blum.

Exit_Only
12-20-2005, 01:40 PM
This is what I don't get. Granted, Timo sucked. The only quality he brought was a strong arm and the occasional clutch hit.

Willie was a quality speed/.obp guy off the bench. There were times when he struggled to get the bunt down, but everybody's beloved Rowand couldn't bunt for ****. I think it's valuable for a manager to have a LH/speed/obp/good glove guy coming off the bench, in late inning situations.

I'm starting to sound like the FODJ's. :redface:

I think people let the fact that they didn't like Willie, as a person, get in the way of a good evaluation. This has been a trend here lately.

I agree that Willie has some value and wonder why he was non-tendered and not traded.

voodoochile
12-20-2005, 01:41 PM
no, I'm actually serious. You are all so pumped about Rob Mackowiak but you know what, he is utility player just like pablo, willie and timo.

A utility player who gets on base at a higher rate, hits for more power, plays more positions, can steal more bases and in general brings a much higher level of play to the Sox bench.

Those guys aren't even close to being as good as Mackowiak. Heck, Mack's OPS is 80 points higher than Timo (all of it in slg%) and 160 points higher than Timo.

This is a no brainer.

KRS1
12-20-2005, 01:42 PM
I actually like Willie as a person. Last year at SoxFest he had his arm around me and my brother for some time and bought us a few drinks.

I think he is a good bench player but very easily replaced.

Name someone who we can replace him with who can steal bases at will(or so it seemed last season) play great 2b and is a left handed bat.

hawkjt
12-20-2005, 01:43 PM
I understand why they did this but I agree with Taylor that Willie is a solid 2nd baseman defensively and after returning in Aug he hit well(13 of 31) the rest of the year. That is over .400 clip.

I also like ozuna tho, and of course gooch so I guess there was no room. Borchard needs to keep hitting like late last year and we will be fine.

I thought Ozz wanted to get faster but I guess not on the bench.

voodoochile
12-20-2005, 01:44 PM
$10 says he hits .275 and has a more productive year than Tads sans power.

He's going to find an environment that's conducisve to playing well. Somebody's going to say, "It's your job." When he gets comfortable, he's going to produce. I don't care what he hit in our uniform. I'm basing all of this on his approach. He's got a real good eye and hits the other way with authority, albeit "authority" for a guy without much power to speak of.

I'm not saying he's more valuable than Iguchi. Iguchi's value comes with intangibles and smart baseball. He will have a higher .BA, .OBP and SB numbers though. All while playing a better 2nd base.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yeah, that's it, Willie just needs to be loved and he will blossom into the full beauty of his baseball life...:rolleyes:

Oh and that sans power part is a pretty big difference.

KRS1
12-20-2005, 01:47 PM
Does this mean Gload will be on the team? He does have some good value to us as a 1bagger, since Thome is getting to that age where he cant be relied on to play the field, and Konerko's gonna need a day off every week or so. How's Rob Mackowiak's game at first?

bobowhite
12-20-2005, 01:48 PM
I'm sorry but, Willie's a much better 2nd baseman. My offensive evaluation is a stretch. I'll give you that. The defense though; there's no question Willie's in a different league defensively. He can do so many more things. He goes back better. He has more range, laterally. He has a better arm and turns the DP better.

Really?

I give you that Willie has better footspeed, but range is as much about getting a jump as footspeed. That's Iguchi's. As to the arm, that's a tough call, but if you really worry about your second baseman's arm. Iguchi did cut down at least two guys at third during the post-season that I thought he had no business on. Boston's catcher at third during ALDS game one. Houston runner trying for a triple. Those were both plays Harris never makes. Willie's greater footspeed makes going back look better but so much of that is about getting the proper turn down and switching to a dead run. That's a hard fundamental to master and Iguchi does it better than any 2B I've seen since Joe Morgan and my parents say Fox (they definately should know.)

Harris does run some balls down that Iguchi doesn't get to, but not anywhere near as many as you seem to think. Iguchi gets the better jump, is moving while the pitch is enroute and makes a lot of these plays easily.

As to turning the DP, Iguchi blows Harris away. He did need to work on protecting himself better, but he adjusted quickly.

kittle42
12-20-2005, 01:48 PM
I actually like Willie as a person. Last year at SoxFest he had his arm around me and my brother for some time and bought us a few drinks.

I think he is a good bench player but very easily replaced.

I concur on both parts. Is it so hard to believe that one could not want The Great Willie Harris on the team that his detractors must dislike him personally? I do not dislike him, but I do think he can be replaced with a better option.

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 01:48 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yeah, that's it, Willie just needs to be loved and he will blossom into the full beauty of his baseball life...:rolleyes:

Oh and that sans power part is a pretty big difference.

Are you implying that there's never been a guy that didn't play well because he didn't have the confidence of the organization? You know better than that Voodoo.

We'll see next year.

BTW... look back at my first post in this thread. I believe I said that it's probably, "for the best" that Harris' is getting a change of scenery. I'm arguing that he's a much better player than people are giving him credit for. This is, in part, due to fan's personal attatchment to a player.

voodoochile
12-20-2005, 01:48 PM
Name someone who we can replace him with who can steal bases at will(or so it seemed last season) play great 2b and is a left handed bat.

Um... why do they need a backup 2B? Isn't Iguchi going to get like 99% of the PT there next season (okay, 95%).

Willie's only position was 2B. Bench players need to be more versatile if their main claim to fame is going to be defense.

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 01:49 PM
I concur on both parts. Is it so hard to believe that one could not want The Great Willie Harris on the team that his detractors must dislike him personally? I do not dislike him, but I do think he can be replaced with a better option.

The 2nd best move of the season, huh? LOL come on.

kittle42
12-20-2005, 01:49 PM
Those guys aren't even close to being as good as Mackowiak. Heck, Mack's OPS is 80 points higher than Timo (all of it in slg%) and 160 points higher than Timo.

Go back to Oakland, stat geek.

kittle42
12-20-2005, 01:50 PM
The 2nd best move of the season, huh? LOL come on.

Where did I say that?

voodoochile
12-20-2005, 01:50 PM
Are you implying that there's never been a guy that didn't play well because he didn't have the confidence of the organization? You know better than that Voodoo.

We'll see next year.

BTW... look back at my first post in this thread. I believe I said that it's probably, "for the best" that Harris' is getting a change of scenery. I'm arguing that he's a much better player than people are giving him credit for. This is, in part, due to fan's personal attatchment to a player.

I hope you are right. I hope Willie has a long and fruitful playing career. I just doubt it will happen and I'd still take Iguchi 7 days a week and twice on Sunday. Willie just has no place on the team.

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 01:51 PM
I hope you are right. I hope Willie has a long and fruitful playing career. I just doubt it will happen and I'd still take Iguchi 7 days a week and twice on Sunday. Willie just has no place on the team.

I agree that Iguchi has more value to us. I still think Harris will have a better offensive season, sans power.

Rocky Soprano
12-20-2005, 01:51 PM
I actually like Willie as a person. Last year at SoxFest he had his arm around me and my brother for some time and bought us a few drinks.

I think he is a good bench player but very easily replaced.

Name someone who we can replace him with who can steal bases at will(or so it seemed last season) play great 2b and is a left handed bat.

Rob Mackowiak.

Willie only stole 2 more bases, but hit almost 20 points less, 50RBI less, and 7 HR less. Should I keep going?

Chicken Dinner
12-20-2005, 01:52 PM
Does this mean Gload will be on the team? He does have some good value to us as a 1bagger, since Thome is getting to that age where he cant be relied on to play the field, and Konerko's gonna need a day off every week or so. How's Rob Mackowiak's game at first?

You won't see Gload in a White Sox uniform unless Thome or Konerko gets hurt, unless of course, you go to a Knights game.

KRS1
12-20-2005, 01:53 PM
Um... why do they need a backup 2B? Isn't Iguchi going to get like 99% of the PT there next season (okay, 95%).

Willie's only position was 2B. Bench players need to be more versatile if their main claim to fame is going to be defense.

I just dont think his speed and D are as easily replaced as Rocky said. He doesnt he has much value as a utility guy, but his speed is hard to replace. However there are a few 6-yr FA's who had high SB #'s if we are looking for one more guy off the bench.

kittle42
12-20-2005, 01:53 PM
Does this mean Gload will be on the team? He does have some good value to us as a 1bagger, since Thome is getting to that age where he cant be relied on to play the field, and Konerko's gonna need a day off every week or so. How's Rob Mackowiak's game at first?

Thanks for bringing it up, because I also forgot to mention I hope Gload is next. Nothing against him personally. He just fell into the overrated greatness category with Harris and Perez on these boards.

Ross Gload as a starting 1B in the majors (which many were advocating at several points)? Pass me some of that stuff, because you were having too much fun. :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

Rocky Soprano
12-20-2005, 01:54 PM
You won't see Gload in a White Sox uniform unless Thome or Konerko gets hurt, unless of course, you go to a Knights game.

I can actually see Gload on the Sox next year.

Ozzie always put him in towards the end of the game. Plus if Thome starts the game as DH, you would not be able to move him to 1B unless you want to see your pitcher bat.

voodoochile
12-20-2005, 01:55 PM
I agree that Iguchi has more value to us. I still think Harris will have a better offensive season, sans power.

What does that mean? I mean honestly, give me some idea of what you are talking about?

Better OBP?
Better avg.?
70 SB so the rest becomes moot?

You keep saying that, but how do you separate these numbers. Sans power Willie will have better numbers? You mean he will beat every other category except for HR?

I'm at a loss...

voodoochile
12-20-2005, 01:56 PM
I just dont think his speed and D are as easily replaced as Rocky said. He doesnt he has much value as a utility guy, but his speed is hard to replace. However there are a few 6-yr FA's who had high SB #'s if we are looking for one more guy off the bench.

You don't keep a guy on the bench for the 6 times a year you need a PR...

KRS1
12-20-2005, 01:57 PM
[quote=KRS1]

Rob Mackowiak.

Willie only stole 2 more bases, but hit almost 20 points less, 50RBI less, and 7 HR less. Should I keep going?

Youre kidding, Rob has good speed for what he does but it is nowhere near that of Wee-one's. Rob got a ton more PT than Willie thus he had many more oppurtunitys than him, if anything you proved my point by saying Willie had 2 more SB's. Willie got 121 AB's and went 10/13 stealing while Rob had 463 AB's and went 8/12 stealing.

Rocky Soprano
12-20-2005, 01:57 PM
I just dont think his speed and D are as easily replaced as Rocky said. He doesnt he has much value as a utility guy, but his speed is hard to replace. However there are a few 6-yr FA's who had high SB #'s if we are looking for one more guy off the bench.

Willie is fast, so stealing bases should come easy to him. Has he even stole more than 20 bases in one year?

He has potential, thats it...

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 01:57 PM
What does that mean? I mean honestly, give me some idea of what you are talking about?

Better OBP?
Better avg.?
70 SB so the rest becomes moot?

You keep saying that, but how do you separate these numbers. Sans power Willie will have better numbers? You mean he will beat every other category except for HR?

I'm at a loss...

He'll hit for a higher avg. He'll have a higher obp. He'll K 1/2 as much. He'll steal twice as many bases. Obviously, his OPS won't be anywhere near Iguchi's, but he'll produce better in other areas. It's no knock on Iguchi. They're different players.

Obviously, it's a stretch, but I think Harris will produce well in the right organization.

KRS1
12-20-2005, 01:58 PM
You don't keep a guy on the bench for the 6 times a year you need a PR...

You dont think that need will go up now that we have two logjams in the middle of the line-up with Kong and Thome?

Rocky Soprano
12-20-2005, 01:59 PM
[quote=Rocky Soprano]

Youre kidding, Rob has good speed for what he does but it is nowhere near that of Wee-one's. Rob got a ton more PT than Willie thus he had many more oppurtunitys than him, if anything you proved my point by saying Willie had 2 more SB's. Willie got 121 AB's and went 10/13 stealing while Rob had 463 AB's and went 8/12 stealing.

If Willie was great he would of gotten more playing time.
In game 2 of the ALCS, who did Ozzie call for to pinch run and steal a base?

It sure didnt look like Willie.

He hasnt even good enough to be on Sox last year.

voodoochile
12-20-2005, 02:04 PM
He'll hit for a higher avg. He'll have a higher obp. He'll K 1/2 as much. He'll steal twice as many bases. Obviously, his OPS won't be anywhere near Iguchi's, but he'll produce better in other areas. It's no knock on Iguchi. They're different players.

Obviously, it's a stretch, but I think Harris will produce well in the right organization.

I think you've been talking to Willie's Mom too much. I just don't see any of that happening except for the stolen bases and then only if he gets a lot of AB.

Willie had 38 total bases in 139 AB last year and it was his best year ever offensively. The year before he had 132 in 409 AB.

Iguchi had 224 in 511 AB last year in his first year in the Majors.

Willie is going to have to make a HUGE jump to match those numbers...

voodoochile
12-20-2005, 02:05 PM
You dont think that need will go up now that we have two logjams in the middle of the line-up with Kong and Thome?

*****!!!

Okay, 10 times a year...:rolleyes:

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 02:06 PM
I think you've been talking to Willie's Mom too much. I just don't see any of that happening except for the stolen bases and then only if he gets a lot of AB.

Willie had 38 total bases in 139 AB last year and it was his best year ever offensively. The year before he had 132 in 409 AB.

Iguchi had 224 in 511 AB last year in his first year in the Majors.

Willie is going to have to make a HUGE jump to match those numbers...

You have to factor in that Harris had sporadic AB's and played in the worst park in baseball for his style of play. If you put him in a park like Pro Players, where the gaps are huge, you'll see those total base numbers jump.

Rocky Soprano
12-20-2005, 02:06 PM
He'll hit for a higher avg. He'll have a higher obp. He'll K 1/2 as much. He'll steal twice as many bases. Obviously, his OPS won't be anywhere near Iguchi's, but he'll produce better in other areas. It's no knock on Iguchi. They're different players.

Obviously, it's a stretch, but I think Harris will produce well in the right organization.

And what was wrong with the Sox?
I doubt he will find a more comfortable atmosphere to play in.

Yes he will find more playing time, but the demands will be higher.

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 02:07 PM
BTW... Willie Harris is my cousin. :redneck

Rocky Soprano
12-20-2005, 02:08 PM
You have to factor in that Harris had sporadic AB's and played in the worst park in baseball for his style of play. If you put him in a park like Pro Players, where the gaps are huge, you'll see those total base numbers jump.

So that explains why Pods sucked!

Exit_Only
12-20-2005, 02:10 PM
I hope you are right. I hope Willie has a long and fruitful playing career.

Yeah, I can see him going to the Cubs.

I just doubt it will happen and I'd still take Iguchi 7 days a week and twice on Sunday. Willie just has no place on the team.

Ozzie disagrees about the Sunday part. :D:

bobowhite
12-20-2005, 02:11 PM
. . . If you put him in a park like Pro Players, where the gaps are huge, you'll see those total base numbers jump.

And Iguchi would still take him, hands down.

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 02:14 PM
So that explains why Pods sucked!

Pods had sporadic AB's? Pods is another good example. He didn't hit many 2b's or 3b's last year. If you put him in another park, those numbers jump as well.

Also, they both go the other way alot, but Pods is more of a slap hitter while Harris tends to drive the ball the other way more. He drives the ball in terms of hitting more line drives, while Pods is great at slapping the ball over the 3rd baseman.

Jjav829
12-20-2005, 02:15 PM
Obviously, it's a stretch, but I think Harris will produce well in the right organization.

What type of organization do the Newark Bears run?

Rocky Soprano
12-20-2005, 02:17 PM
Pods had sporadic AB's? Pods is another good example. He didn't hit many 2b's or 3b's last year. If you put him in another park, those numbers jump as well.

Also, they both go the other way alot, but Pods is more of a slap hitter while Harris tends to drive the ball the other way more. He drives the ball in terms of hitting more line drives, while Pods is great at slapping the ball over the 3rd baseman.

Plus Pods can bunt himself on. Pitchers are scared of his speed.
Willie can probably keep up with Pods in a race (maybe even beat him), yet he doesnt scare anyone.

Harris doesnt have power so he should not be trying to drive the ball anywhere. MAYBE if he learned how to slap the ball around he would still be on the Sox.

bobowhite
12-20-2005, 02:20 PM
Actually, I'm happy for Willie. He'll get a chance to go to a different organization and probably take over as a starting 2B. No way he's better than Iguchi and I think the Sox have better options for backing up the infielder positions. Harris signed his own walking papers when he wouldn't play winter ball and learn to SS.

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 02:22 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if Harris didn't go to winter ball because he wanted to be released. He got his ring. He might want to go to an organization where he will play everyday.

Tragg
12-20-2005, 02:24 PM
Ozuna plays more positions.
Really? I thought Willie could play 2B, SS and CF.
I didn't think Ozuna could play SS and was limited to 2b and 3b.

Palehose13
12-20-2005, 02:26 PM
Really? I thought Willie could play 2B, SS and CF.
I didn't think Ozuna could play SS and was limited to 2b and 3b.

I don't think too many people are comfortable with Willie playing SS or even CF. IIRC, Ozuna played all infield positions last year and corner OF. However, with Mackowiak, he will probably only be needed for 2B/SS.

nodiggity59
12-20-2005, 02:26 PM
Really? I thought Willie could play 2B, SS and CF.
I didn't think Ozuna could play SS and was limited to 2b and 3b.

Pablo plays LF as well. Also, Willie is a piss poor SS, even worse than Pablo is at 3rd.

Chicken Dinner
12-20-2005, 02:27 PM
Really? I thought Willie could play 2B, SS and CF.
I didn't think Ozuna could play SS and was limited to 2b and 3b.



Ozuna played all the infield positions and even a little OF last year.

Tragg
12-20-2005, 02:28 PM
Pablo plays LF as well. Also, Willie is a piss poor SS, even worse than Pablo is at 3rd.
Can Pablo play SS?

Jerome
12-20-2005, 02:28 PM
YAYY! Timo Perez and Willie are gone! Especially Timo, that guy doesn't even belong in the bigs.

Gremlin3
12-20-2005, 02:30 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/ozunapa01.shtml

Check Pablo's fielding stats

duke of dorwood
12-20-2005, 02:36 PM
Willie is expendable with Ozuna on the roster. They are both the same type of player, though Ozuna brings more versatility. There really is no room for Willie on the roster with Mackowiak and Ozuna taking up bench spots.

Borchard is probably the front-runner to take Timo's spot, which might not be a bad thing.

We are better off without them ALL things considered

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 02:38 PM
I will gladly eat crow if I'm wrong. :D:

ShoelessJoeS
12-20-2005, 02:43 PM
Later guys! Not too sad to see Timo leave, however, I think Willie is going to make a darn good 2B one day. He has has great speed and his defense was improving every time I saw him play.

Here's to a couple World Champions, Willie and Timo :gulp:

TimoPerez
12-20-2005, 02:45 PM
Thank you Timo. You have provided me with a great deal of joy over the last two years with the White Sox. I really hope you come back to the Mets.

Thank you Willie as well. I still believe you are a good player.

Good luck to both.

chisoxmike
12-20-2005, 02:58 PM
Although I never had the hatered toward Timo like many people on these boards did, I did have it for Willie, therefor, this calls for a celebration...

:supernana: :bandance: :gulp: :gulp: :bandance: :supernana:

:hawk
"Where's he gonna play?"

:chisoxmike
"WHO CARES? HE GONE!"

bobowhite
12-20-2005, 03:12 PM
I will gladly eat crow if I'm wrong. :D:

You'll also owe me $10 !!!!!

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 03:33 PM
You'll also owe me $10 !!!!!

$5 since you're a n00b. :redneck

gbergman
12-20-2005, 03:42 PM
i was looking for the info on this and i cant find it anywhere so can you post thelink were you saw this.

Chicken Dinner
12-20-2005, 03:50 PM
i was looking for the info on this and i cant find it anywhere so can you post thelink were you saw this.

What?????

The Dude
12-20-2005, 03:58 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if Harris didn't go to winter ball because he wanted to be released. He got his ring. He might want to go to an organization where he will play everyday. I really dont think he can be an everyday player. Maybe a platoon with a mediocre right handed 2B. Of course he wanted to be released though because he wouldnt get any playing time behind Gooch or Mac.

DickAllen72
12-20-2005, 03:59 PM
I hate to see Willie go. IMO, the kid can hit. He has a good eye. People think he can't run, but his SB% is awesome. He's the best 2nd baseman on our team. It's for the best though. He deserves to play everyday. I think he'll have a nice career somewhere. He reminds me of a better hitting Womack. He's not quite the base stealer, but has a better glove.

I agree with all you said about Willie. He deserves a shot at 2B with another team. Maybe the Sox no longer had a spot for him, but one would think they could have at least traded him for a prospect. I don't like the idea of non-tendering him, if in fact this is true. I still haven't seen any confirmation on this story.

itsnotrequired
12-20-2005, 04:04 PM
I don't like the idea of non-tendering him, if in fact this is true. I still haven't seen any confirmation on this story.

I guess we'll find out in the next 7 hours...

DickAllen72
12-20-2005, 04:04 PM
Thanks, Willie for helping the Sox win the World Series!!!

SoxFan76
12-20-2005, 04:11 PM
Not gonna lie, I just skipped through this whole thread to see what bafiarocks would say...and I see nothing. I'm disappointed to say the least...

maurice
12-20-2005, 04:33 PM
:bandance:
Good riddance to Timo Perez.

OTOH, Harris is better than some of the starting 2B on MLB teams. It's a very weak position. In sporadic action over the last couple of years, Harris posted about a .340 OBP with strong defense. In his MLB career, he has 49 SB in 61 attempts. I know he's a bit of an ass and had no roster spot on this team, but they probably could have tendered him and then traded him. I guess it's not a big deal.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-20-2005, 04:34 PM
Not gonna lie, I just skipped through this whole thread to see what bafiarocks would say...and I see nothing. I'm disappointed to say the least...

Same here. This was a double dagger for Bafia - hope she can find a new favorite in 2006.

Jerko
12-20-2005, 05:07 PM
Not gonna lie, I just skipped through this whole thread to see what bafiarocks would say...and I see nothing. I'm disappointed to say the least...

I hope she's all right............

bafiarocks03
12-20-2005, 05:08 PM
I'm not saying anything untill it's official....i haven't started crying yet....because i'm waiting...:(:

bobowhite
12-20-2005, 05:20 PM
$5 since you're a n00b. :redneck

Glad you've already conceded !!!! :D:

longshot7
12-20-2005, 05:40 PM
good points by everyone. I am not crying either. However, there is only one thing left to say:

GROUP 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KyWhiSoxFan
12-20-2005, 05:53 PM
Willie has some ability and is a good defensive 2nd baseman, with better range than Iguchi. I don't think Willie should be a starter, but he's capable off the bench and is able to give Iguchi some rest. By the end of the season, Iguchi looked tired. Willie will be missed if he's gone.

Timo, I can't wait to wave bye to him. Borchard should be given a chance to come of the bench to see if he can finally hit major league pitching. If he can't do it consistently by July, we need to cut our losses and let him go. Owens needs to spend more time in the minors. Putting him on the bench four or five days a week will not help his development. He can be called up if Borchard doesn't cut it.

Daver
12-20-2005, 05:56 PM
Willie has some ability and is a good defensive 2nd baseman, with better range than Iguchi.

Your kidding right?

SoxFan76
12-20-2005, 05:57 PM
I will admit I liked Willie. He posted a decent OBP in 04, and he does have speed. Can't steal a base to save his life, but he could get better. He also played some great defense at 2nd.

He could start for a .500 or below team.

Banix12
12-20-2005, 06:16 PM
I still think Willie should have a long and productive career, at least as a major league bench player.

I'm mostly glad Timo exiting ends the "Timo vs. Borchard" debates that have populated this site since the end of the season.

Don't go thinking though that this means Borchard is the backup OF. He still sucks very, very much. I still think the 4th OF is going to be somebody, ANYBODY else, just now we know it won't be Timo Perez.

I don't care how much money the sox have spent on him. The fact that the Sox spent a ton of money on Jaime Navarro kept him as a starting pitching option far too long despite the fact he couldn't pitch. Kept first round picks like Billy Beane, Shawn Abner and Ben Davis around much longer than they should have. Best to just cut their losses and move on. Don't try getting value out of a guy who can't provide it.

Thus ends my usual dig on Borch

KyWhiSoxFan
12-20-2005, 06:24 PM
Your kidding right?

No, I'm not kidding. Willie can get to more balls than Iguchi, particularly up the middle. And Iguchi terrifies me whenever a ball is hit over his head and he has to turn and go back on it. He's not good on those plays.

SoxEd
12-20-2005, 06:47 PM
I actually like Willie as a person. Last year at SoxFest he had his arm around me and my brother for some time and bought us a few drinks.

I think he is a good bench player but very easily replaced.

Whilst, like Baby Fisk, I am concerned to see BafiaRocks' reaction to the news that Willie is leaving, I'd be more concerned about her potential jealous reaction to RockySoprano's revelation above.
:redneck

kevin57
12-20-2005, 08:01 PM
Interesting...

a Willie/Timo thread is up to 11 pages.

PAPChiSox729
12-20-2005, 08:45 PM
Interesting...

a Willie/Timo thread is up to 11 pages.

Change your settings and it will only be up to 4.

:redneck

I liked Timo. It was truly amazing how he always seemed to get his hits when they mattered the most.

Lprof
12-20-2005, 08:54 PM
Is it me, or did the SOX suddenly get a lot slower just now

Perez is as slow as molasses, and Willie can't steal first base.

Lprof
12-20-2005, 08:58 PM
I agree that Iguchi has more value to us. I still think Harris will have a better offensive season, sans power.
I can't believe anyone is even debating this issue.

TimoPerez
12-20-2005, 09:08 PM
Perez is as slow as molasses, and Willie can't steal first base.

I don't know why but for some reason a common misconception around here is that Timo is slow. Timo got from home to first in 3.65 seconds last year. That is very fast. I have know idea why anyone thinks he is slow.

SoxFan76
12-20-2005, 09:13 PM
I don't know why but for some reason a common misconception around here is that Timo is slow. Timo got from home to first in 3.65 seconds last year. That is very fast. I have know idea why anyone thinks he is slow.

Because somehow it's engraved in everyone's brain to hate Timo.

He was a bench player for crying out loud!

TimoPerez
12-20-2005, 09:19 PM
Because somehow it's engraved in everyone's brain to hate Timo.

He was a bench player for crying out loud!

I am not worried. There isn't a person posting here who will ever forget, "C'MON TIMO! C'MON TIMO!"

Banix12
12-20-2005, 09:21 PM
I don't know why but for some reason a common misconception around here is that Timo is slow. Timo got from home to first in 3.65 seconds last year. That is very fast. I have know idea why anyone thinks he is slow.

I never thought he was completely slow but i never thought he was the fastest guy. Just a bit above average speedwise for the most part.

Though there are a lot of misconceptions about Timo. He is considered a good pinch hitter by a lot of people but his numbers say otherwise.

Timo was an average (sometimes below average) bench player but he had become way too expensive for the little value he provides. Timo Perez is a decent player at the league minimum but not at over a million dollars a year.

1951Campbell
12-20-2005, 09:25 PM
I can't believe anyone is even debating this issue.

Yes, make it stop.

TimoPerez
12-20-2005, 09:27 PM
I never thought he was completely slow but i never thought he was the fastest guy. Just a bit above average speedwise for the most part.

Though there are a lot of misconceptions about Timo. He is considered a good pinch hitter by a lot of people but his numbers say otherwise.

Timo was an average (sometimes below average) bench player but he had become way too expensive for the little value he provides. Timo Perez is a decent player at the league minimum but not at over a million dollars a year.

Whatever he is, he will always be my favorite player. I have grown to love the Sox because of him. I hope that if he is not a member of this club next year he comes back to the Mets(Omar Minaya has always loved him. He signed him in the first place.)

I doubt he'll get too much money. I'll be happy with whatever he gets. I just love to see him play.

bafiarocks03
12-20-2005, 09:29 PM
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

1951Campbell
12-20-2005, 09:32 PM
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

Look at the bright side, there's still a lot to love about this team.

TimoPerez
12-20-2005, 09:34 PM
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

It isn't official yet. We still have some hope.

bafiarocks03
12-20-2005, 09:35 PM
I know...i know..that's why I'm holding it in...Untill it comes up on whitesox.com..then i'll let you know when i lose it! :(:

TimoPerez
12-20-2005, 09:44 PM
I know...i know..that's why I'm holding it in...Untill it comes up on whitesox.com..then i'll let you know when i lose it! :(:

Since when is ":whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: " holding it in?:tongue:

1951Campbell
12-20-2005, 09:47 PM
Get a room.

billyvsox
12-20-2005, 10:00 PM
Personally I like Timo very much and will miss him. I know his value is not good based on his numbers and age, but by all indications he was a 'tremendous' guy and a leader to the young latin players. He was a favorite of Ozzie's and delivered A LOT of big pinch hits in the past two years. I wish him well.

As for Willie, I think he still has a potential upside, but we can no longer wait and Ozuna has proven to be better. Adios - Lil Willie

My concern that I keep stating about our off season moves is the 'chemistry' issue:

Aaron Rowand: Big time grinder and one of the 'stooges'
El Duke: Leader of the pitchers (especially Contrearas)
Timo: Mentor for the young latin players (Uribe, Ozuna, Freddy, Viz)
Crazy Carl: Good clubhouse guy and hard worker.

These are intangibles that cannot be replaced.

Banix12
12-20-2005, 10:15 PM
Personally I like Timo very much and will miss him. I know his value is not good based on his numbers and age, but by all indications he was a 'tremendous' guy and a leader to the young latin players. He was a favorite of Ozzie's and delivered A LOT of big pinch hits in the past two years. I wish him well.

As for Willie, I think he still has a potential upside, but we can no longer wait and Ozuna has proven to be better. Adios - Lil Willie

My concern that I keep stating about our off season moves is the 'chemistry' issue:

Aaron Rowand: Big time grinder and one of the 'stooges'
El Duke: Leader of the pitchers (especially Contrearas)
Timo: Mentor for the young latin players (Uribe, Ozuna, Freddy, Viz)
Crazy Carl: Good clubhouse guy and hard worker.

These are intangibles that cannot be replaced.

No he didn't. My guess is most of his big hits came in games where he got the start because he is a god awful pinch hitter. Why does nobody believe this?

2004-2005 pinch hitting totals - 9 for 50 / 3 Runs / 2 RBI

soxfan43
12-20-2005, 11:30 PM
Are these moves official yet? I know the deadline was tonight at some point, not really sure when though. I hate to see Willie go but I have no problem with Timo getting outta town.

caulfield12
12-21-2005, 07:36 AM
What we hope is to have a team behind him that is better than he's used to," Williams said. "He has some of the best stuff in the league. Fortunately I have a pitching coach in Don Cooper that, even going back to when we were both in the minor league system, has an idea of what type of pitchers we can help and what type we can't."

The Sox had until 11 p.m. Tuesday night to offer contracts to Garland, third baseman Joe Crede, utility player Rob Mackowiak, outfielder Timo Perez and infielder Willie Harris, who are all arbitration eligible. A source said Garland, Crede, Mackowiak and Harris were each offered deals. The club will make an official announcement today.

from dailysouthtown.com

My note: so it looks like we will be paying Vazquez $10.5 million this season and $9.5 million in 2007 from "Sox" funds...thus making our 5th or 6th starter the highest paid pitcher on the team, lol.

DumpJerry
12-21-2005, 07:50 AM
The Cubune is reporting otherwise. This might be a typo by the Southtown or Bafiarocks hacked into the Southtown's computers and added the nugget....

itsnotrequired
12-21-2005, 07:51 AM
Still not "official" but it doesn't look good.

Although the White Sox did not confirm the moves Tuesday night, a source close to the situation indicated Harris would be non-tendered, along with outfielder Timo Perez and Minor League hurler Felix Diaz. The Associated Press confirmed that particular list after midnight, as well as Minor League pitcher Jon Adkins also being non-tendered.

Contracts would be tendered, as expected, to third baseman Joe Crede, pitcher Jon Garland and utility man Rob Mackowiak.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051221&content_id=1285470&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

The Dude
12-21-2005, 08:15 AM
This better be a joke....i cant wait to have the two stooges off our team!

itsnotrequired
12-21-2005, 08:16 AM
This better be a joke....i cant wait to have the two stooges off our team!

Which ones, Harris and Perez or Diaz and Adkins?:D:

daveeym
12-21-2005, 08:20 AM
This better be a joke....i cant wait to have the two stooges off our team! While I don't really like Willie as a player I do think he still has some value, as trade bait, to help match up contracts, or as the water boy.

Chicken Dinner
12-21-2005, 09:40 AM
Timo and Willie have been removed from the roster on Whitesox.com. I'd say that's pretty official. :smile:

mweflen
12-21-2005, 10:02 AM
I've never met Timo, but he seems likable. I just don't like him at the plate in a Sox uniform. Hs numbers blow, on the downtrend no less, he made a million bucks, and this misconception that he is somehow clutch exists only because he failed to deliver in so many other regular situations that his "big RBIs" stand out. So it's better for the Sox that he's gone.

Willie, maybe he was having a bad day, but he was a jerk when I met him. His numbers were improving, so maybe he'll land a job with someone like TB or Colorado. But I could care less. For all his speed, he couldn't steal a base. Too bad we couldn't trade him for a bag of balls or something during '05, though.

Anybody have a graphic of David Spade saying "buh bye!"?

And I do sympathize, Bafiarocks. Just because I don't like your fave player doesn't mean I want you to suffer for his loss.... but what are you going to do when Bafia himself moves on to greener pastures? IIRC, he was oging to finish up at UIC soon... :redneck

bobowhite
12-21-2005, 10:06 AM
Timo Perez, in a Mets uniform no less, was on Summer Sander's list of ten most boneheaded plays in sports. I'm sure he's hated in New York.

Britt Burns
12-21-2005, 10:06 AM
He never liked him...c'mon, Timo! was classic from last year.

Timo and Willie helped us win a WS, so i say thank you and good luck. However, players like them, and players even marginally better than them, are a dme a dozen. I'd take Gload over Timo every day of the week

Rocky Soprano
12-21-2005, 10:08 AM
It's official:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051221&content_id=1285470&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

caulfield12
12-21-2005, 10:24 AM
Which ones, Harris and Perez or Diaz and Adkins?:D:

With Adkins and Diaz out of the mix, it definitely opens things up for Tracey and Bajenaru.

So much for the Lofton and Ray Durham deals, lol, the reverse of the Fogg/Olivo/Bradford non-tenders.

Add Harris, and we gave away Singleton, Durham and Lofton for nothing, lol.

Obviously, they're still going to bring a couple of veterans to camp or make a move with Garland that brings back a middle reliever.

Chicken Dinner
12-21-2005, 10:27 AM
Check the roster......HE GONE

Chez
12-21-2005, 10:31 AM
MLB.com has the complete list of non-tenderds posted. Willie, Timo, Adkins and Diaz are on the list. So is M. Olivo and J. Fogg.

kittle42
12-21-2005, 10:37 AM
Timo Perez, in a Mets uniform no less, was on Summer Sander's list of ten most boneheaded plays in sports. I'm sure he's hated in New York.

Who is Summer Sander?

DaleJRFan
12-21-2005, 10:42 AM
Anyone else notice that Alex Escobar is on the non-Tendered list??? What a trade that was! How's Jerry Owens doing these days? :cool:

forrestg
12-21-2005, 11:41 AM
OLivo, can't Aj teach him how to call a game.... Walker can teach him how to hit. He already can run, catch and throwout base runners better than I'v seen in a while.

Saddlebags05
12-21-2005, 11:52 AM
Timo will be missed because he did come up with some big hits during his sox tenure, and Willie was decent but certainly wasn't anything special. Ozuna will be better than both of them. I hope Timo goes back to the Mets.:kneeslap:

Stoky44
12-21-2005, 12:26 PM
Willie..........He gone!!!

itsnotrequired
12-21-2005, 12:31 PM
Okay, now it is official.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20051221&content_id=1285758&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Big surprise here!

tebman
12-21-2005, 12:34 PM
Okay, now it is official.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20051221&content_id=1285758&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Big surprise here!
Somebody better go around and check on bafiarocks. It's been eerily quiet from her since yesterday.

bafiarocks03
12-21-2005, 12:38 PM
yah i read that this morning too! so..I'm confused...Is my love here or not!?

itsnotrequired
12-21-2005, 12:40 PM
yah i read that this morning too! so..I'm confused...Is my love here or not!?

Um, you might not want to clink on the link...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20051221&content_id=1285758&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

voodoochile
12-21-2005, 12:41 PM
yah i read that this morning too! so..I'm confused...Is my love here or not!?

No, Bafia. I'm sorry, he's not...

bafiarocks03
12-21-2005, 12:42 PM
:whiner: :(: :whiner: :(: :whiner: :(: :whiner: :(: :whiner: yah......I have no words right now guys...my Willie Harris!...i dont' even know what to say....

MisterB
12-21-2005, 12:42 PM
So much for the Lofton and Ray Durham deals, lol, the reverse of the Fogg/Olivo/Bradford non-tenders.

Add Harris, and we gave away Singleton, Durham and Lofton for nothing, lol.


If you consider that Durham and Lofton only spent half a season with the A's and Giants (respectively) and Singleton played only one season for the Orioles before leaving for free agency, neither side of these trades have anything to show for it.

bafiarocks03
12-21-2005, 12:47 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051221&content_id=1285470&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051221&content_id=1285470&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)


"Both Harris and Perez could re-sign with the White Sox at an adjusted salary, while Diaz and Adkins could be signed to Minor League deals."

kittle42
12-21-2005, 01:33 PM
"Both Harris and Perez could re-sign with the White Sox at an adjusted salary"

Will they accept $0 ?

duke of dorwood
12-21-2005, 01:37 PM
:whiner: :(: :whiner: :(: :whiner: :(: :whiner: :(: :whiner: yah......I have no words right now guys...my Willie Harris!...i dont' even know what to say....

He's a Free Agent-he really can be yours now

Beauty35thStreet
12-21-2005, 01:40 PM
Your kidding right?

If Iguchi's better, it's not by much. I believe Willie is a better 2B than Iguchi. Iguchi was sought ought not because of fielding, it was all because of hitting.

kittle42
12-21-2005, 01:41 PM
If Iguchi's better, it's not by much. I believe Willie is a better 2B than Iguchi. Iguchi was sought ought not because of fielding, it was all because of hitting.

:gulp: :gulp: :gulp: Cheers.

Minnie Me
12-21-2005, 01:49 PM
I will always love you Willie.
I want to have your children-

He scored the winning run in the Sox 1-0 victory in Game 4 of the World Series at Houston.

PAPChiSox729
12-21-2005, 01:51 PM
I will always love you Willie.
I want to have your children-

He scored the winning run in the Sox 1-0 victory in Game 4 of the World Series at Houston.

I know I said the same thing about Blum after Game 3.

:redneck

Stoky44
12-21-2005, 01:52 PM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward

bobowhite
12-21-2005, 01:58 PM
If Iguchi's better, it's not by much. I believe Willie is a better 2B than Iguchi. Iguchi was sought ought not because of fielding, it was all because of hitting.

You are absolutely kidding!!! Just to start, Iguchi turns 13.5% of his chances into double plays, Willie turns less than 12% of his chances. In a season, that is 12 more double plays created by Iguchi than Harris. That is probably four or five more games won because of double plays on defense only. Add to that other aspects of the game at this one isn't even close. Iguchi is far superior to Willie Harris defensively.

StockdaleForVeep
12-21-2005, 02:09 PM
You are absolutely kidding!!! Just to start, Iguchi turns 13.5% of his chances into double plays, Willie turns less than 12% of his chances. In a season, that is 12 more double plays created by Iguchi than Harris. That is probably four or five more games won because of double plays on defense only. Add to that other aspects of the game at this one isn't even close. Iguchi is far superior to Willie Harris defensively.
In willie's defense, thats like saying alomar is better than harris, thats a given. Gooch has been playin multiple seasons and is established. Willie has not had the time to develop his fielding but developing a speedy second baseman has benefits, ray durham anyone?

I like gooch but i woulda liked willie off the bench still

mweflen
12-21-2005, 04:45 PM
So, uh... where are the *Official* Willie and Timo Appreciation Threads?:rolleyes:

1951Campbell
12-21-2005, 08:11 PM
Will they accept $0 ?

Oh, snap!

Beauty35thStreet
12-21-2005, 08:11 PM
You are absolutely kidding!!! Just to start, Iguchi turns 13.5% of his chances into double plays, Willie turns less than 12% of his chances. In a season, that is 12 more double plays created by Iguchi than Harris. That is probably four or five more games won because of double plays on defense only. Add to that other aspects of the game at this one isn't even close. Iguchi is far superior to Willie Harris defensively.

Stats and #s, stats and #s are in Bobo's brain. What do you mean by chances? 13.5% of plays are DPs turned or 13.5% of DP opps are turned? I'm assuming the former.

13.5 vs less than 12 sounds absolutely ridiculous in terms % wise to begin with. Add to the fact that maybe Gooch had more DP opps than Harris and that can explain that statistic right there.

I'm not saying Gooch is bad, but I'm just replying to Daver saying Harris was not good compared to Gooch in terms of defense and I'm going to say YOU"RE WRONG TOO :wink:

Believe me though, I'd rather take Gooch than Harris, but I don't think he's a bad defensmen.

TaylorStSox
12-21-2005, 09:49 PM
You are absolutely kidding!!! Just to start, Iguchi turns 13.5% of his chances into double plays, Willie turns less than 12% of his chances. In a season, that is 12 more double plays created by Iguchi than Harris. That is probably four or five more games won because of double plays on defense only. Add to that other aspects of the game at this one isn't even close. Iguchi is far superior to Willie Harris defensively.

LMAO!!!

That has to be the worst defensive stat I've ever seen! I don't need stats to tell me that Willie Harris is a better defensive 2nd baseman than Tadahito Iguchi.

A. Cavatica
12-21-2005, 10:27 PM
Yes, but what were the percentages turning late-inning chances into DPs on turf, with a left-handed hitter at the plate and two strikes on the batter, when the pitcher throws a fastball inside? That's the key to a pennant right there.

mweflen
12-21-2005, 11:55 PM
I'm not saying Gooch is bad, but I'm just replying to Daver saying Harris was not good compared to Gooch in terms of defense and I'm going to say YOU"RE WRONG TOO :wink:


:tealpolice:

Nellie_Fox
12-22-2005, 02:12 AM
...I would of liked to seen him stay.**heavy sigh**

SouthSide_HitMen
12-22-2005, 02:33 AM
I hope Timo goes back to the Mets.

I don't - I am a Mets fan.

Sorry Bafia about Willie - You can get the MLB Extra Innings package and watch over 100 games of Willie Harris in a Colorado Rockies uniform (or any other ML ballclub).

Rocky Soprano
12-22-2005, 08:37 AM
**heavy sigh**

I guess you didn't read the rest of my posts...

Lip Man 1
12-22-2005, 12:39 PM
Let's see... Willie Harris.... a guy with speed who can't steal bases, a guy who strikes out far to much to be a leadoff or top lineup guy and a guy who has difficulty bunting. JUST WHAT THE SOX NEED!

Lip

SoxEd
12-22-2005, 01:32 PM
**heavy sigh** :roflmao:

You know these guys got the vote, don'tcha?
That's our future, right there!

:redneck

How's his apostrophe use though?

:duck:

The Dude
12-22-2005, 01:38 PM
Let's see... Willie Harris.... a guy with speed who can't steal bases, a guy who strikes out far to much to be a leadoff or top lineup guy and a guy who has difficulty bunting. JUST WHAT THE SOX NEED!

Lip

But still, it wouldve been nice to see him wearing #1 next season.:cool:

kittle42
12-22-2005, 01:38 PM
I don't need stats to tell me that Willie Harris is a better defensive 2nd baseman than Tadahito Iguchi.

I do not enjoy this recent trend of fans being able to analyze and debate defensive ability by throwing off all objective data/information. "I know I'm right" is not a great retort to anything that at least has some objective basis.

TaylorStSox
12-22-2005, 02:03 PM
I do not enjoy this recent trend of fans being able to analyze and debate defensive ability by throwing off all objective data/information. "I know I'm right" is not a great retort to anything that at least has some objective basis.

I've already explained why I think Willie's better defensively. I don't have to go into details again.

There is no "objective/data information" to judge defense. It can only be evaluated by watching the guy play IMO.

maurice
12-22-2005, 04:55 PM
Even if you believe in defensive stats generally, "% of chances turned into double plays" is terrible. Take 2 2B who are identical in every respect, except that Player A has far more range on popups and on ground balls to his left than Player B. Since popups and balls hit to the left of a 2B rarely result in double plays, Player A will field far more non-double-play balls and (as a result) have a lower % of chances turned into double plays, despite being much better defensively than Player B.

Beauty35thStreet
12-22-2005, 05:47 PM
Even if there is good objective data, can someone name it? It certainly wasn't the DP % that was stated earlier.

I've already explained why I think Willie's better defensively. I don't have to go into details again.

There is no "objective/data information" to judge defense. It can only be evaluated by watching the guy play IMO.

Beauty35thStreet
12-22-2005, 05:51 PM
I think Willie was a pretty good bench player after his Triple-AAA and was working his way up. Even Kenny said, "This guy's going to be a player." However, maybe they're getting rid of him because they don't want to sign him and him revert to his old self. I can understand Kenny not wanting to take a chance.

That being said, I think Willie will turn around and there's too many people that are underestimating his defense. There's even some fools that think when someone defends his defensive skill, that we're somehow defending his batting average.



This is what I don't get. Granted, Timo sucked. The only quality he brought was a strong arm and the occasional clutch hit.

Willie was a quality speed/.obp guy off the bench. There were times when he struggled to get the bunt down, but everybody's beloved Rowand couldn't bunt for ****. I think it's valuable for a manager to have a LH/speed/obp/good glove guy coming off the bench, in late inning situations.

I'm starting to sound like the FODJ's. :redface:

I think people let the fact that they didn't like Willie, as a person, get in the way of a good evaluation. This has been a trend here lately.