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View Full Version : Uh, oh!....so much for Contreras and "hometown" discount


caulfield12
12-20-2005, 04:08 AM
In addition, it's not axiomatic that the Sox and pitcher Jose Contreras will strike an extension soon.

Jaime Torres, Contreras' agent, said Monday he wasn't encouraged by the White Sox's initial offer to keep him past 2006.

"We have to look at today's market," Torres said.

That's cause for concern among the Sox, who have 16 players under contract at about $83 million for 2006 but want to stabilize their rotation for the future in an escalating market.

"Garland is due to make a good raise and good for Gar," Pierzynski said during a conference call.

"He deserves it for what he's been through. I saw him last week and he wants to stay. But at the same time, the White Sox have to do what's best for their organization.

"[If] he makes $9 million or $10 million, that's going to put a dent in the budget, and that means someone else is going to have to go."

The Sox dealt pitcher Orlando Hernandez last Tuesday as part of a package for Vazquez, but that trade has yet to be approved as Arizona is trying to finalize details with Hernandez.

from chicagosports.com

MUsoxfan
12-20-2005, 04:29 AM
I'm entirely confident KW will make everything fine and dandy

ilsox7
12-20-2005, 04:35 AM
People still actually believe what agents say? It is all negotiating, don't pay attention to it.

Exit_Only
12-20-2005, 04:50 AM
In addition, it's not axiomatic that the Sox and pitcher Jose Contreras will strike an extension soon.

Jaime Torres, Contreras' agent, said Monday he wasn't encouraged by the White Sox's initial offer to keep him past 2006.

"We have to look at today's market," Torres said.

That's cause for concern among the Sox, who have 16 players under contract at about $83 million for 2006 but want to stabilize their rotation for the future in an escalating market.

"Garland is due to make a good raise and good for Gar," Pierzynski said during a conference call.

"He deserves it for what he's been through. I saw him last week and he wants to stay. But at the same time, the White Sox have to do what's best for their organization.

"[If] he makes $9 million or $10 million, that's going to put a dent in the budget, and that means someone else is going to have to go."

The Sox dealt pitcher Orlando Hernandez last Tuesday as part of a package for Vazquez, but that trade has yet to be approved as Arizona is trying to finalize details with Hernandez.

from chicagosports.com
With this new information, assuming Contreras is in the same price range as Garland, KW might as well sign Garland. He's younger and is probably the safer pick between the two.

Flight #24
12-20-2005, 07:10 AM
With this new information, assuming Contreras is in the same price range as Garland, KW might as well sign Garland. He's younger and is probably the safer pick between the two.

You can book it that Contreras will come both cheaper and shorter than Garland. In the AJ thread, he mentions "If Jon gets his $9 or 10M", which could be nothing or it could mean that the current price is something like 4/$40 for Jon. Which would put Jose at maybe 3/$24.

It all depends on budget and what signing each guy means you do elsewhere. That and what you can get in trade for the one you don't sign.

Hangar18
12-20-2005, 07:49 AM
With this new information, assuming Contreras is in the same price range as Garland, KW might as well sign Garland. He's younger and is probably the safer pick between the two.

Agreed

dickallen15
12-20-2005, 08:03 AM
You can book it that Contreras will come both cheaper and shorter than Garland. In the AJ thread, he mentions "If Jon gets his $9 or 10M", which could be nothing or it could mean that the current price is something like 4/$40 for Jon. Which would put Jose at maybe 3/$24.

It all depends on budget and what signing each guy means you do elsewhere. That and what you can get in trade for the one you don't sign.

Contreras makes $8 million a year now. He was the best pitcher in the AL the second half of 2005. He was the Sox ace in the playoffs. There is no way he would sign for 3 years/$24 million.

getonbckthr
12-20-2005, 08:09 AM
People still actually believe what agents say? It is all negotiating, don't pay attention to it.
Kenny doesn't believe in negotiations when he has this much pitching. Basically this is your offer if you don't like it Kenny will find someone who does like it and will trade for him. With Kenny's track record it will most likely work out excellent for us as well.

VASoxfan1
12-20-2005, 08:12 AM
Except for the fact that he's "35" meaning how many good years does he really have left? Yeah he was good, but is really worth a large long term investment for 1/2 a season of good baseball. At least garland had about 3/4 of a good year, haha.

I mean what el duque was "36" and his breakdown was pretty sudden and drastic. I want to see Contreras resigned but not at anything that could hurt the sox in the long term.

getonbckthr
12-20-2005, 08:14 AM
With this new information, assuming Contreras is in the same price range as Garland, KW might as well sign Garland. He's younger and is probably the safer pick between the two.
What about dealing Jose and Garland to ST Louis for Mulder and Reyes. I think Mulder would possibly take a hometown discount. Plus it would actually make our staff stronger.
Mark, Freddy, Javy, Mulds, Bmac

samram
12-20-2005, 08:18 AM
Eh, big deal. I was posting last week that this wasn't as close to getting done as a lot of people think. I wonder if KW can play JC and JG off one another- basically whoever wants to stay gets the money- and then trade the other.

dickallen15
12-20-2005, 08:29 AM
Eh, big deal. I was posting last week that this wasn't as close to getting done as a lot of people think. I wonder if KW can play JC and JG off one another- basically whoever wants to stay gets the money- and then trade the other.

The money the other teams in MLB have is worth just as much as the White Sox money. If KW wants at least one of these 2 to stay, he is going to have to pay market price.

samram
12-20-2005, 08:38 AM
The money the other teams in MLB have is worth just as much as the White Sox money. If KW wants at least one of these 2 to stay, he is going to have to pay market price.

I agree completely. I'm just saying if both say they would like to stay, then KW can perhaps gain some leverage. I'm not sure what in my previous post suggested the Sox money was worth more than other teams' money, although it can be argued the opportunity to stay where you've been carries some value.

dickallen15
12-20-2005, 08:59 AM
I agree completely. I'm just saying if both say they would like to stay, then KW can perhaps gain some leverage. I'm not sure what in my previous post suggested the Sox money was worth more than other teams' money, although it can be argued the opportunity to stay where you've been carries some value.

I wasn't directing anything at you. I think KW is trying to get one of these guys signed below market value, way below market value, and I don't think the lure of playing for the White Sox means that much of a discount to either player. IMO the leverage is all Garland's and Contreras'. KW has none. These guys had great years, and now the price of mediocre pitching has skyrocketed. Either he pays them what they want or could get on the open market, or they walk at the end of the year or get traded. I can't see him trading more than one of them, unless the White Sox fall out of contention at the deadline.

Flight #24
12-20-2005, 09:06 AM
Contreras makes $8 million a year now. He was the best pitcher in the AL the second half of 2005. He was the Sox ace in the playoffs. There is no way he would sign for 3 years/$24 million.

He's also put up 1 good season, and only 1/2 of a dominant season, which makes him less proven than Garland. And he's a lot older, and could even be pushing 1.5 to 2x the age of Jon since some believe he's in his 40s. Regardless, he's unlikely to improve.

So even if it's 9-10M, it'll be on a 2-3 year deal instead of 4-5. Think Paul Byrd, but with a higher salary.

I'm not advocating signing JC over JG, I like the long-term potential of Jon. but I can see how trading Garland and keeping Contreras might be a better decision for the team in the medium to long term, and without a real downgrade in the short term.

kevin57
12-20-2005, 09:07 AM
I'll grant that this is probably just part of the "negotiating process" (as the Vazquez deal also includes a "pressuring" dynamic on both Contreras and Garland).

However, that also makes Contreras' recent declaration that he loves Chicago and has found a home here, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah...look to be nothing more than that: negotation spin. :(:

Hitmen77
12-20-2005, 09:13 AM
This really non-news to me. Did we really expect JC and his agent to look that desperate to stay and to jump at the Sox first offer?

http://www.simpsoncrazy.com/gallery/promo/8f09.gif

Germans: Isn't this a happy coincidence! You are desperate to buy, and we
are desperate to sell.
Burns: [calculatingly] Desperate, eh? ... Advantage: Burns!

Chicken Dinner
12-20-2005, 09:15 AM
Time to bring on the salary cap!!!

Tragg
12-20-2005, 09:16 AM
I think the timing works in our favor; it looks like the peak of the pitchers market this year (created by our success to at least some extent) and all of our key arms are under contract this year and go off contract over a series of years.

The key is to sign MB, the leader and face of this staff, and for McCarthy to blossom into a solid ML starter, and to continue to develop minor league talent that is attractive to other teams in trades. Those 3 things plus Williams' creativity and willingness to do deals, should ensure we have a thriving set of starters.

On a side note, we're benefitted by having an inexpensive bullpen. I'd guess that BJRyan makes more than our entire bullpen in aggregate.

caulfield12
12-20-2005, 09:18 AM
I wasn't directing anything at you. I think KW is trying to get one of these guys signed below market value, way below market value, and I don't think the lure of playing for the White Sox means that much of a discount to either player. IMO the leverage is all Garland's and Contreras'. KW has none. These guys had great years, and now the price of mediocre pitching has skyrocketed. Either he pays them what they want or could get on the open market, or they walk at the end of the year or get traded. I can't see him trading more than one of them, unless the White Sox fall out of contention at the deadline.

The only thing you can say is that Jose is very comfortable with his manager, his pitching coach, his teammates. All things being equal, a player would have to think twice before taking $1-2 million more in a different market (East or West coast) where he wouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt by fans. Look what happened to Renteria after the big deal was signed in Boston. Konerko went through this same thinking process and made the right decision for himself and his family. It's not the easiest thing to leave a World Series champion...then again, we've lost 40% of our team and some would argue that you should be able to focus on "individual" goals once you've been fortunate enough to get a WS win...

In this market, Contreras is definitely worth $9, 10, even 11 million for a couple of years. If AJ Burnett is worth that for five years and has an injury history, how is Contreras, coming off his being the 2nd best AL pitcher behind Santana...not worth the same? Obviously, it would have to be a two year extension and no more, through the 2008 season.

caulfield12
12-20-2005, 09:20 AM
Time to bring on the salary cap!!!

There should be a minimum spending floor of around $50 million. That would prevent teams like the Marlins, D-Rays, Brewers, Pirates and Royals from just operating to make a profit through the revenue sharing while putting non-competitive teams out on the field.

I will give Glass some credit for pursuing Byrd, signing Elarton and adding those veterans who will at least make the club competitive this season.

Hitmen77
12-20-2005, 09:27 AM
The money the other teams in MLB have is worth just as much as the White Sox money. If KW wants at least one of these 2 to stay, he is going to have to pay market price.

I think you're missing the point. At this point in time, the Sox do have more leverage than other teams because they are the only ones who can offer these pitchers the security of a multiyear deal now. JG and JC cannot seek market price from other teams for another year. If they want the security of a multiyear deal now that would guarantee them money regardless of injury, return to pre-2005 form, etc., then the trade off would be to sign for less then the might get next year if all goes well for them.

Now, when I say "sign for less", the Sox would still have to pay alot to these pitchers. They won't accept an extension for peanuts. But, I would expect the $ amount in an extension to be less than full-blown FA market price. If it weren't, then why bother offering an extension? The Sox would be better off just waiting until next fall to match other teams' "market price" offer.

kittle42
12-20-2005, 09:39 AM
What about dealing Jose and Garland to ST Louis for Mulder and Reyes. I think Mulder would possibly take a hometown discount. Plus it would actually make our staff stronger.
Mark, Freddy, Javy, Mulds, Bmac

:rolleyes:

dickallen15
12-20-2005, 09:42 AM
According to the Southtown, their source said Contreras is very close to signing an extension. They said talks really heated up yesterday.

Flight #24
12-20-2005, 10:38 AM
How about this for a conspiracy theory? KW agrees to ship a low-level prospect to AZ along with Duque for the cash savings. As part of it, AZ agrees to announce this deal, drag along on the final approval, and eventually kill it because of "concerns" on his shoulder. In the end, the deal is re-worked to focus strictly on Duque going to AZ (they keep Vazquez & dela him elsewhere, we keep Young). However, in the meantime, KW has a ton of leverage on Garland/Contreras and can hopefully get both to agree to reasonable extensions.

:smokin:

caulfield12
12-20-2005, 10:47 AM
How about this for a conspiracy theory? KW agrees to ship a low-level prospect to AZ along with Duque for the cash savings. As part of it, AZ agrees to announce this deal, drag along on the final approval, and eventually kill it because of "concerns" on his shoulder. In the end, the deal is re-worked to focus strictly on Duque going to AZ (they keep Vazquez & dela him elsewhere, we keep Young). However, in the meantime, KW has a ton of leverage on Garland/Contreras and can hopefully get both to agree to reasonable extensions.

:smokin:

But how is this in Arizona's interest? If we keep Young, who is 90% of the deal as far as the D-Backs are concerned...why would the D/Backs want a questionable pitcher in terms of injuries and age? OTOH, if he's healthy, El Duque has almost become a bargain in the last couple of months, lol. Of course, that's still a question mark for many.

Ol' No. 2
12-20-2005, 11:57 AM
How about this for a conspiracy theory? KW agrees to ship a low-level prospect to AZ along with Duque for the cash savings. As part of it, AZ agrees to announce this deal, drag along on the final approval, and eventually kill it because of "concerns" on his shoulder. In the end, the deal is re-worked to focus strictly on Duque going to AZ (they keep Vazquez & dela him elsewhere, we keep Young). However, in the meantime, KW has a ton of leverage on Garland/Contreras and can hopefully get both to agree to reasonable extensions.

:smokin:What did you have to eat before you went to bed last night?

samram
12-20-2005, 12:39 PM
How about this for a conspiracy theory? KW agrees to ship a low-level prospect to AZ along with Duque for the cash savings. As part of it, AZ agrees to announce this deal, drag along on the final approval, and eventually kill it because of "concerns" on his shoulder. In the end, the deal is re-worked to focus strictly on Duque going to AZ (they keep Vazquez & dela him elsewhere, we keep Young). However, in the meantime, KW has a ton of leverage on Garland/Contreras and can hopefully get both to agree to reasonable extensions.

:smokin:

Too much holiday cheer, methinks.:D:

WhiteSoxFan84
12-20-2005, 12:40 PM
IMO, Contreras will demand and deserves $9.5 mill per. But I wouldn't give him that guranteed 3 year deal. I would give him a two-year extension with a club option for a 3rd year. Here's how I'd pay him out..

Year 1: $9 mill
Year 2: $10 mill
Year 3 (club option): $11 mill ($3.5 mill buy-out)

So in the end, this may turn out to look like a 3 year/$30 mill deal if we pick up his option. But if we don't, it'll look like a 2 year/$22.5 mill deal. Either way, I think Jose will be happy.

TaylorStSox
12-20-2005, 12:44 PM
IMO, Contreras will demand and deserves $9.5 mill per. But I wouldn't give him that guranteed 3 year deal. I would give him a two-year extension with a club option for a 3rd year. Here's how I'd pay him out..

Year 1: $9 mill
Year 2: $10 mill
Year 3 (club option): $11 mill ($3.5 mill buy-out)

So in the end, this may turn out to look like a 3 year/$30 mill deal if we pick up his option. But if we don't, it'll look like a 2 year/$22.5 mill deal. Either way, I think Jose will be happy.


I like the way you think. I'm not worried about Contreras' age. He has nice mechanics and a real easy delivery. He has a rubber arm. He's in awesome shape. He's been conditioned to throw tons of innings from his days in Cuba. IMO, he's a good example of why you don't have to worry about pitch counts.

Garcia's health worries me more. He's never in good shape. He labors alot. He has a history of forearm problems. Freddy's still a horse, but he's the most likely to go down IMO.

Jjav829
12-20-2005, 12:53 PM
How about this for a conspiracy theory? KW agrees to ship a low-level prospect to AZ along with Duque for the cash savings. As part of it, AZ agrees to announce this deal, drag along on the final approval, and eventually kill it because of "concerns" on his shoulder. In the end, the deal is re-worked to focus strictly on Duque going to AZ (they keep Vazquez & dela him elsewhere, we keep Young). However, in the meantime, KW has a ton of leverage on Garland/Contreras and can hopefully get both to agree to reasonable extensions.

:smokin:
Interesting theory....now please return Hangar's tinfoil hat. :tongue:

Jerome
12-20-2005, 02:06 PM
This is why Brandon Mccarthy must never be traded! Ever! The market for pitching is absolutely insane. If Pavano and Burnett can get the kind of money they get, why would Jose Contreras and Jon Garland take 3/24 or whatever the contracts were. All it takes is one stupid team (cough Blue Jays cough). Thank goodness Freddie Garcia didn't test the market, can you imagine the contract he'd get?

After 2006 we should let Garland or Contreras walk, and try to improve the pitching at the minor league levels, and cross our fingers that Gio Gonzales and Haigwood don't turn out to be anything special. Signing both Garland and Contreras is going to cost a LOT.

Burhle
Freddie
BMac
Vazquez
?

That's still a good rotation IMO.

DickAllen72
12-20-2005, 03:22 PM
With this new information, assuming Contreras is in the same price range as Garland, KW might as well sign Garland. He's younger and is probably the safer pick between the two.

Sign 'em both. Pitching wins World Championships. Garland & Contreras are at the top of their games and are two of the best starters in baseball. Pitchers with half the talent/records are being paid $11M per year. Pay Garland & Contreras the same and I'll bet they would stay. Garland, 4yrs./$45M, Contreras 2year extension,/$22M.

If the Sox think they can't afford it, find a way, even if it means sacrificing position players.

chitown13
12-20-2005, 03:31 PM
Lets just do this....

Vazquez and Garland/Contreras to Baltimore for Tejada
Uribe, prospect(s), cash to the Cardinals for Mulder

still gives us

Buehrle
Mulder
Garcia
Garland/Contreras
BMAC

Or just trade both Garland and Contreras for Tejada and keep Vazquez. Plug and play all you want :D:

ShoelessJoeS
12-20-2005, 03:41 PM
Lets just do this....

Vazquez and Garland/Contreras to Baltimore for Tejada
Uribe, prospect(s), cash to the Cardinals for Mulder

still gives us

Buehrle
Mulder
Garcia
Garland/Contreras
BMAC

Or just trade both Garland and Contreras for Tejada and keep Vazquez. Plug and play all you want :D:
How the **** would we be able to trade Uribe, prospects/cash for Mulder?!?

:?: :rolleyes:

chitown13
12-20-2005, 03:49 PM
LOL...I haven't figured that out yet :D:
but if anyone can do it, KW can! (probably giving away our farm system)

Mulder will be in a free agency next year too, so lets just bring him back to his home town.

(Wishful thinking of course)

ShoelessJoeS
12-20-2005, 03:53 PM
LOL...I haven't figured that out yet :D:
but if anyone can do it, KW can! (probably giving away our farm system)

Mulder will be in a free agency next year too, so lets just bring him back to his home town.

(Wishful thinking of course)

:tealtutor:

kittle42
12-20-2005, 04:51 PM
The ridiculous trade idea threads are infiltrating legitimate Clubhouse threads! Run for cover!