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WhiteSoxFan84
12-18-2005, 07:08 PM
I am VERY bored and don't have much to do as I wait for the Bears game to start.

So I thought about something we can all enjoy, make a list of your top 10 pitchers and top 10 hitters! :bandance:

Best way to look at this is as follows; imagine you're drafting a baseball team, who are the top 10 hitters you would take and in what order? Do the same for pitchers (starters only). Think long-term but not toooo far down the line. Obviously guys like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens will probably not be good ideas as they both are very old and their careers are very close to being (if not already) over.

Think real life and not fantasy baseball. Take everything (age, clubhouse behavior, injury history, etc.) into consideration EXCEPT SALARIES! Disregard salaries.

Hitters
1. Albert Pujols
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Vladimir Guerrero
4. Miguel Tejada
5. Ichiro Suzuki
6. David Ortiz
7. Derek Lee
8. Michael Young
9. Miguel Cabrera
10. Manny Ramirez

Pitchers
1. Johan Santana
2. Roy Oswalt
3. Jake Peavy
4. Roy Halladay
5. Rich Harden
6. Dontrelle Willis
7. Carlos Zambrano
8. Bartolo Colon
9. Mark Buehrle
10. Chris Carpenter

I don't even know if I'm sure about these picks, but for now, they'll do.

EDIT: I forgot about Halladay. Put him in and took Jason Schmidt out.

VivaOzzie
12-18-2005, 07:56 PM
Hitters
Ichiro Suzuki
Mark Texiera
Miguel Cabrera
Albert Pujols
Todd Helton
Carlos Lee
Michael Young
David Ortiz
Vladimir Guerrero
Paul Konerko

Pitchers
Johan Santana
Mark Buehrle
Roy Halladay
Ben Sheets
Roy Oswalt
Mark Mulder
Chris Carpenter
Tim Hudson
Dontrelle Willis
Josh Beckett

D. TODD
12-18-2005, 08:01 PM
Hitters
Ichiro Suzuki
Mark Texiera
Miguel Cabrera
Albert Pujols
Todd Helton
Carlos Lee
Michael Young
David Ortiz
Vladimir Guerrero
Paul Konerko

Pitchers
Johan Santana
Mark Buehrle
Roy Halladay
Ben Sheets
Roy Oswalt
Mark Mulder
Chris Carpenter
Tim Hudson
Dontrelle Willis
Josh Beckett
I can't see leaving A-Rod or Manny Rameriez off of the list. Those two jump out at me off the top of the head. I like C.Lee also, but not that much.

VivaOzzie
12-18-2005, 08:06 PM
I can't see leaving A-Rod or Manny Rameriez off of the list. Those two jump out at me off the top of the head. I like C.Lee also, but not that much.

First off, I hate A-Rod. That's the main reason I left him off. Secondly, I think he is too selfish and he's never really played for a winner. I think that's more than a coincidence.

As for Manny Ramirez, the off-the-field stuff was the main reason I left him off. Asking to be traded at least once a year is not something I'd want to deal with. He absolutely cracks me up when I watch what he does, but I wouldn't want to have to work with him.

And I think Carlos Lee is going to be pretty damn good for a while. I see last season as a coming out for the rest of his career.

PAPChiSox729
12-18-2005, 08:11 PM
Hitters
1. Albert Pujols
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Miguel Cabrera
4. David Ortiz
5. Vlad Guerrero
6. Miguel Tejada
7. Ichiro Suzuki
8. Jason Varitek
9. Brian Roberts
10. Derrek Lee

Starting Pitchers
1. Johann Santana
2. Chris Carpenter
3. Roy Oswalt
4. Dontrelle Willis
5. Jake Peavy
6. Roy Halladay
7. Carlos Zambrano
8. Bartolo Colon
9. Mark Buehrle
10. Andy Pettitte

Corlose 15
12-18-2005, 08:43 PM
I think Roy Halladay is being underated a bit by you guys. He won the Cy Young two years ago and was lights out last year until he broke his leg. If he doesn't break his leg, Buehrle isn't starting the all-star game. He very well could have won the Cy Young again this year if he had stayed healthy.

kittle42
12-18-2005, 08:59 PM
Anyone putting Konerko on the Top 10 hitters or leaving C. Zambrano off the list of Top 10 pitchers, no matter how much whining and pointing he does, is being a bit biased, in my opinion.

PAPChiSox729
12-18-2005, 09:03 PM
Anyone putting Konerko on the Top 10 hitters or leaving C. Zambrano off the list of Top 10 pitchers, no matter how much whining and pointing he does, is being a bit biased, in my opinion.

I think any knowlegable baseball fan would say that the Cubs actually do have some very good players. But that same knowledgeable fan would also have to admit that the Cubs are a pretty mediocre team.

VivaOzzie
12-18-2005, 09:24 PM
Anyone putting Konerko on the Top 10 hitters or leaving C. Zambrano off the list of Top 10 pitchers, no matter how much whining and pointing he does, is being a bit biased, in my opinion.

Guilty as charged. :redface: :tongue:

samram
12-18-2005, 09:30 PM
Hitters:
1. Albert Pujols
2. Manny Ramirez
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. Ichiro
5. David Ortiz
6. Vladimir Guerrerro
7. Miguel Tejada
8. Mark Texeira
9. Bob Abreu
10. Miguel Cabrera

Pitchers:
1. Johan Santana
2. Roy Oswalt
3. Chris Carpenter
4. Pedro Martinez
5. Roy Halladay
6. Dontrelle Willis
7. Josh Beckett
8. Mark Buehrle
9. Jake Peavy
10. Carlos Zambrano

WhiteSoxFan84
12-18-2005, 09:35 PM
I think Roy Halladay is being underated a bit by you guys. He won the Cy Young two years ago and was lights out last year until he broke his leg. If he doesn't break his leg, Buehrle isn't starting the all-star game. He very well could have won the Cy Young again this year if he had stayed healthy.


i COMPLETELY forgot about him and he's been on my keeper league for 2 seasons now. wow...

HomeFish
12-18-2005, 09:58 PM
Hitters:
Pujols
Manny Ramirez
Vlad
A-Rod
Ortiz
Tejada
Texeira
Cabrera
Bonds*
Ichiro

Pitchers:
Santana
Colon
Halladay
Oswalt
Willis
C. Zambrano
Prior
Harden
Pettitte
Peavy

Professor
12-18-2005, 10:38 PM
Hitters:
Pujols
Manny Ramirez
Vlad
A-Rod
Ortiz
Tejada
Texeira
Cabrera
Bonds*
Ichiro

Pitchers:
Santana
Colon
Halladay
Oswalt
Willis
C. Zambrano
Prior
Harden
Pettitte
Peavy

I was wondering how Bonds, hate him or not, was not on any lists thus far. Even before the roids, he could flat out hit.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-18-2005, 10:39 PM
I was wondering how Bonds, hate him or not, was not on any lists thus far. Even before the roids, he could flat out hit.

My theory was that because we're pretty much "drafting" players in the order we put them in and we are thinking long-term, Bonds might not even play another game let alone another 2-3 seasons.

tadscout
12-18-2005, 11:16 PM
Hitters
1. Albert Pujols
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Vladimir Guerrero
4. Ichiro Suzuki
5. Miguel Cabrera
6. Miguel Tejada
7. David Ortiz
8. Todd Helton
9. Michael Young
10. Mark Texeira

Pitchers-
1. Johan Santana
2. Roy Oswalt
3. Chris Carpenter
4. Roy Halladay
5. Mark Buehrle
6. Dontrelle Willis
7. Rich Harden
8. Jake Peavy
9. Ben Sheets
10. Josh Beckett

Flight #24
12-18-2005, 11:44 PM
Here's an issue: When you're talking about straight hitters, it's different from hitters by position. Example: Manny Ramirez is a far better hitter than Miguel Tejada, but Miggy being a SS makes a huge difference in terms of team value.

That said, here's my list in order of how I'd pick them if I was starting a team (so taking production at position, youth, etc. into account) and had to pick 1 guy.

1. Pujols
2. ARod
3. Cabrera
4. Manny
5. Teixeira
6. Tejada
7. Bonds
8. Hafner
9. Vlady
10. V. Martinez

Bonds would by far be the runaway #1 if not for age/injury. That also dings Vlady. VMart is like Tejada - can't find that production at his position, which raises his value.

Pitchers:
1. Santana
2. Willis
3. Oswalt
4. Felix Hernandez
5. Clemens
6. Zambrano
7. Prior
8. Buehrle
9. Colon
10. Pedro

Clemens is still going strong, Zambrano's only 24 and already a hoss, and I think Prior's due for a Cy caliber year absent the freak injury. Pedro can still bring it for at least 1-2 more years.

PAPChiSox729
12-19-2005, 12:20 AM
Bonds would by far be the runaway #1 if not for age/injury. That also dings Vlady. VMart is like Tejada - can't find that production at his position, which raises his value.

That is what I figured. And that is why Brian Roberts and Jason Varitek beat our Manny Ramirez, Helton, Teixeira, etc. on my list.

Jjav829
12-19-2005, 01:33 AM
Ok, I'll bite. Taking everything but salary into consideration, and assuming this is for the future and not simply next year, my list would be:

Hitters:
1.) Albert Pujols - Best hitter in the game. Outstanding plate coverage, amazing BB/K rate, great power to all fields, even added a bit of a speed aspect last year. Oh, and he can just about field his position with the best of 'em. No doubt the #1.
2.) Alex Rodriguez - You can say all you want about his playoff struggles, but he's still the #2 position player in the game. He does basically everything Pujols does, and his play at 3B isn't bad.
3.) Miguel Cabrera - There is still some potential to this pick and I have no idea how he will handle playing 3B every day. But he's developed into one of the biggest threats at the plate in all of baseball.
4.) Mark Teixeira - Little doubt to this pick. He's easily a top 5 hitter at this point. Factor in his age and he's worthy of this spot
5.) Miguel Tejada - Consider his position and hitting ability and you have to consider him a top 5 player.
6.) Vladimir Guerrero - He isn't a perfect player, and he has some flaws, but damn if the guy isn't scary as hell at the dish and he's one of only a couple players in baseball who makes opponents think about him in the field while they are on the bases.
7.) David Ortiz - Yeah, so he's a DH, but when the guy produces at the plate like Ortiz does, who cares if he doesn't play a position?
8.) Travis Hafner - See Ortiz, David.
9.) Manny Ramirez - Yeah, yeah, I know. He's still Manny, though.
10.) David Wright - He's a very good all-around hitter, plays a great 3B and can run the bases well. Oh, and he's only 23.

Pitchers:
1.) Johan Santana - No explanation needed.
2.) Roy Oswalt - Same as #1. The guy is damn good.
3.) Roy Halladay - Struggled to stay healthy two years in a row, but he still deserves this spot.
4.) Jake Peavy - I'll admit I have a bit of a bias here. I happen to think Peavy will someday soon be the best pitcher in baseball.
5.) Dontrelle Willis - He can hit, too!
6.) Chris Carpenter - If he continues to pitch like he did in 2005 he is #1, but I do wonder just how long he can continue to pitch like that.
7.) Mark Buehrle - Eats innings and just gets it done every single time out.
8.) Rich Harden - His stuff is as good as it gets when he's on. He's gotta stay healthy, but he's worth the risk.
9.) Carlos Zambrano - Yeah, he's a headcase, but he's also really good. If he ever gets it together mentally he might crack the top 5.
10.) Josh Beckett - Health is a major concern, but that fastball-splitter combination is just so Clemens-like.

TheKittle
12-19-2005, 01:43 AM
Ok, I'll bite. Taking everything but salary into consideration, and assuming this is for the future and not simply next year, my list would be:

Hitters:
1.) Albert Pujols - Best hitter in the game. Outstanding plate coverage, amazing BB/K rate, great power to all fields, even added a bit of a speed aspect last year. Oh, and he can just about field his position with the best of 'em. No doubt the #1.

Getting a little carried away there with praising Pujols? Added speed? And he fields his position with the best of them? Maybe the best of the worst. He's not even close to a gold glove.

Is he a great hitter. NO QUESTION. Great all around player? Not even close. If the NL had the DH, that's where Pujols would be.

fquaye149
12-19-2005, 01:44 AM
I think Roy Halladay is being underated a bit by you guys. He won the Cy Young two years ago and was lights out last year until he broke his leg. If he doesn't break his leg, Buehrle isn't starting the all-star game. He very well could have won the Cy Young again this year if he had stayed healthy.

I would be extremely shocked if there was any team in baseball who would rather have Halladay than Buehrle right now, all things considered.

I think, all things considered, there are few pitchers in baseball that are more desirable than Buehrle - Santana is an obvious exception, as is Oswalt. But beyond that, considering age, salary, and pitching quality, Buehrle is beyond Halladay at this point.

fquaye149
12-19-2005, 01:46 AM
Getting a little carried away there with praising Pujols? Added speed? And he fields his position with the best of them? Maybe the best of the worst. He's not even close to a gold glove.

Is he a great hitter. NO QUESTION. Great all around player? Not even close. If the NL had the DH, that's where Pujols would be.

um...at 1B (his natural position) Pujols has gold-glove caliber defense. There's nothing I can cite to prove this to you if you're disinclined to believe it, but rest assured nearly everyone would agree with me (and jjav) that Pujols has a great glove at 1st.

Pujols is a great all-around player. If you don't think that's the case, I would suggest you watch some Cardinals games.

fquaye149
12-19-2005, 01:50 AM
I was wondering how Bonds, hate him or not, was not on any lists thus far. Even before the roids, he could flat out hit.

Bonds missed nearly the entire season and played fairly well in limited PT. Given his age, I wouldn't build a team around him, but when he's on he's head and shoulders above anyone not named Pujols, Manny, or Ortiz. And he's better than those three as well.

However, he is a huge question mark, considering around July there were questions if he'd even be walking come July of '06.

Of course, coming from a guy who LOVED the Thome trade (me), these doubts might seem a little hypocritical.

Jjav829
12-19-2005, 01:51 AM
Getting a little carried away there with praising Pujols? Added speed? And he fields his position with the best of them? Maybe the best of the worst. He's not even close to a gold glove.

Is he a great hitter. NO QUESTION. Great all around player? Not even close. If the NL had the DH, that's where Pujols would be.

Absolutely disagree 100%.

First, I should clarify the speed thing. I simply meant that he added another dimension to his game; that ability to take an extra base here and there. I'm not saying the guy is suddenly Carl Crawford on the basepaths, but stealing 16 bases, even if those come when the defense isn't paying a ton of attention to you, is a nice added bonus.

Second, there is no way you can say he would be a DH. He isn't Derrek Lee or J.T. Snow at first base, but the guy can pick some balls in the dirt and I thought his range improved last year. There is no way Albert Pujols would ever find himself DH'ing unless Derrek Lee was on the same team. No way.

JorgeFabregas
12-19-2005, 02:11 AM
How could anyone put Josh Beckett over Mark Buehrle? Beckett has yet to break 200 IP in any season and the NL has had about a half run less average ERA than the AL over the last few years.

TheKittle
12-19-2005, 03:02 AM
Absolutely disagree 100%.

First, I should clarify the speed thing. I simply meant that he added another dimension to his game; that ability to take an extra base here and there. I'm not saying the guy is suddenly Carl Crawford on the basepaths, but stealing 16 bases, even if those come when the defense isn't paying a ton of attention to you, is a nice added bonus.

Second, there is no way you can say he would be a DH. He isn't Derrek Lee or J.T. Snow at first base, but the guy can pick some balls in the dirt and I thought his range improved last year. There is no way Albert Pujols would ever find himself DH'ing unless Derrek Lee was on the same team. No way.

Please. Pujols is far from Lee or Snow. He isn't even near the same zip code. Is he terrible? No. But he sure as hell can see terrible. And by say he isn't a Lee or Snow, doesn't that go against what you said earlier, that he up with the best of them??? Lee and Snow are among the best with the glove.

And yes he would DH.

nodiggity59
12-19-2005, 04:34 AM
Please. Pujols is far from Lee or Snow. He isn't even near the same zip code. Is he terrible? No. But he sure as hell can see terrible. And by say he isn't a Lee or Snow, doesn't that go against what you said earlier, that he up with the best of them??? Lee and Snow are among the best with the glove.

And yes he would DH.

:roflmao:

:hawk
Kittle, GRAB SOME BENCH

WhiteSoxFan84
12-19-2005, 04:54 AM
Getting a little carried away there with praising Pujols? Added speed? And he fields his position with the best of them? Maybe the best of the worst. He's not even close to a gold glove.

Is he a great hitter. NO QUESTION. Great all around player? Not even close. If the NL had the DH, that's where Pujols would be.

Have you seen Pujols play defense constantly? The guy is as quick as a cat! He has Paul Konerko scooping abilities, he has Derek Lee range, and he's so damn flexible it's unbelievable. He's very, VERY good on defense. Watch him turn the 3-4-3 or 3-6-3 double play, it is a thing of beauty! I saw him do it about 2 or 3 times last year in limited viewing (only caught like 6 Cardinals games last year) and it was absolutely impressive. I'm sure Pujols was 2nd or 3rd in Gold Glove voting this year.

And oh yeh, he can play a VERY respectable leftfield AND third base.

And about his speed, he had 16 stolen bases in 18 attempts! He had the same amount of stolen bases as Aaron Rowand in 3 less attempts! He had more stolen bases in less attempts than Tadahito Iguchi (15/20), Pablo Ozuna (14/21), Corey Patterson (15/20), Derek Jeter (14/19), and many others who you would probably think are faster because of how they look. And he had better numbers on the bases than Derek Lee, who had 15 SBs in 18 attempts.

No offense, but you're WAY out of your league here with that statement. It's obvious you have no idea what Pujols breaks to the table defensively. You just see him at the plate and assume he's your stereotypical bopper.

kittle42
12-19-2005, 10:37 AM
How could anyone put Josh Beckett over Mark Buehrle? Beckett has yet to break 200 IP in any season and the NL has had about a half run less average ERA than the AL over the last few years.

I'm not sure where I fall on the Beckett v. Buehrle question, but I do think we tend to overrate Buehrle as "one of our own." Not that he isn't great and not that he wouldn't be on my list of ten, too, because he certainly would, but without giving it too much thought, I'd probably take at least Oswalt, Santana, Hudson, Halladay, Zambrano, and maybe even the Messiah over Buehrle.

Flight #24
12-19-2005, 10:47 AM
Pitchers:
4.) Jake Peavy - I'll admit I have a bit of a bias here. I happen to think Peavy will someday soon be the best pitcher in baseball.
.....
10.) Jose Beckett - Health is a major concern, but that fastball-splitter combination is just so Clemens-like.
Peavy's gotta be added to my list. Brainfart there. As for Jose Beckett, has he officially defected to the US yet? And more importantly, doe he have the requisite 'Stache to share a first name with Valentin?:tongue:

NeverForget42
12-19-2005, 01:52 PM
I am VERY bored and don't have much to do as I wait for the Bears game to start.

So I thought about something we can all enjoy, make a list of your top 10 pitchers and top 10 hitters! :bandance:

Best way to look at this is as follows; imagine you're drafting a baseball team, who are the top 10 hitters you would take and in what order? Do the same for pitchers (starters only). Think long-term but not toooo far down the line. Obviously guys like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens will probably not be good ideas as they both are very old and their careers are very close to being (if not already) over.

Think real life and not fantasy baseball. Take everything (age, clubhouse behavior, injury history, etc.) into consideration EXCEPT SALARIES! Disregard salaries.

Hitters
1. Albert Pujols
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Vladimir Guerrero
4. Miguel Tejada
5. Ichiro Suzuki
6. David Ortiz
7. Derek Lee
8. Michael Young
9. Miguel Cabrera
10. Manny Ramirez

Pitchers
1. Johan Santana
2. Roy Oswalt
3. Jake Peavy
4. Roy Halladay
5. Rich Harden
6. Dontrelle Willis
7. Carlos Zambrano
8. Bartolo Colon
9. Mark Buehrle
10. Chris Carpenter

I don't even know if I'm sure about these picks, but for now, they'll do.

EDIT: I forgot about Halladay. Put him in and took Jason Schmidt out.


BOOOO
i'll never forget him plunking joe 'clutch' crede while we were batting around him
i think he's totally classless

even if i wasnt biased i dont think i would put him #2, but this being a sox site he should be left off the list

WhiteSoxFan84
12-19-2005, 02:35 PM
BOOOO
i'll never forget him plunking joe 'clutch' crede while we were batting around him
i think he's totally classless

even if i wasnt biased i dont think i would put him #2, but this being a sox site he should be left off the list

If anything i'd pick him up because he plunked Michael Barrett and got so deep into Barrett's head that he is still upset about the incident two years later.

But that's not the reason why, here is the reason why he's # 2: 83-39, 3.07 ERA. Not bad for a 28 year-old, wouldn't you say? Being 217 wins shy of 300, if he pitches until he's 40 or 41 and averages 16-17 wins a year (very possible), he will get to that milestone. If he keeps winning 20 games a year (off back-to-back 20 win seasons), he'll get to 300 when he's 38 or 39.

kittle42
12-19-2005, 02:36 PM
even if i wasnt biased i dont think i would put him #2, but this being a sox site he should be left off the list

I think we can still be objective baseball fans here. :D:

TheKittle
12-19-2005, 02:38 PM
Have you seen Pujols play defense constantly? The guy is as quick as a cat! He has Paul Konerko scooping abilities, he has Derek Lee range, and he's so damn flexible it's unbelievable. He's very, VERY good on defense. Watch him turn the 3-4-3 or 3-6-3 double play, it is a thing of beauty! I saw him do it about 2 or 3 times last year in limited viewing (only caught like 6 Cardinals games last year) and it was absolutely impressive. I'm sure Pujols was 2nd or 3rd in Gold Glove voting this year.

And oh yeh, he can play a VERY respectable leftfield AND third base.

And about his speed, he had 16 stolen bases in 18 attempts! He had the same amount of stolen bases as Aaron Rowand in 3 less attempts! He had more stolen bases in less attempts than Tadahito Iguchi (15/20), Pablo Ozuna (14/21), Corey Patterson (15/20), Derek Jeter (14/19), and many others who you would probably think are faster because of how they look. And he had better numbers on the bases than Derek Lee, who had 15 SBs in 18 attempts.

No offense, but you're WAY out of your league here with that statement. It's obvious you have no idea what Pujols breaks to the table defensively. You just see him at the plate and assume he's your stereotypical bopper.

You have not clue. I've seen Pujols all the time. He isn't anywhere close to being a good defensive 1st.

I guess watching 6 games makes you an expert? You have no clue and way out of YOUR league. Don't talk anymore of this subject. You look foolish.

JorgeFabregas
12-19-2005, 02:54 PM
I'm not sure where I fall on the Beckett v. Buehrle question, but I do think we tend to overrate Buehrle as "one of our own." Not that he isn't great and not that he wouldn't be on my list of ten, too, because he certainly would, but without giving it too much thought, I'd probably take at least Oswalt, Santana, Hudson, Halladay, Zambrano, and maybe even the Messiah over Buehrle.

Messiah=Prior? Anyway, I don't really have a problem with that. I think Buerhle's on the lower part of the top 10 pitchers in baseball. However, Beckett has been injury-proned (while Buehrle is a horse) and his ERA is pretty comparable with Buehrle's despite pitching in the significantly easier league.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-19-2005, 02:55 PM
You have not clue. I've seen Pujols all the time. He isn't anywhere close to being a good defensive 1st.

I guess watching 6 games makes you an expert? You have no clue and way out of YOUR league. Don't talk anymore of this subject. You look foolish.

:rolleyes:
I look foolish? How many guys are disagreeing with you on this subject? Everyone but you thinks he's a good 1st basemen, but the almighty TheKittle knows best right?

"I've seen Pujols all the time", have you really? Even at the grocery store? At his local Best Buy? Give me a break. Pay attention buddy, I'm about to give you a ride to school.

Thanks to ESPN.com and Stats Inc. for the following numbers:
FPCT: Fielding Pct.((PO + A) divided by (PO + A + E))
RF: Range Factor ((PO + A) * 9 divided by innings)
ZR: Zone rating. The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone"

Derek Lee (2005 NL Gold Glove)
FPCT: .994
RF: 9.20
ZR: .860

Mark Teixeira (2005 AL Gold Glove)
FPCT: .996
RF: 9.71
ZR: .873

J.T. Snow
FPCT: .996
RF: 9.28
ZR: .825

Albert Pujols
FPCT: .992
RF: 10.53
ZR: .887


I got the career fielding stats for the 2005 Gold Glove winners at first base which include Derek Lee who you keep bringing up (rightfully so) and I also included J.T. Snow's stats who you keep bringing up. Make your excuses damn good ones as to why Pujols has a MUCH better Range Factor compared to your Dynamic Duo and why his Zone Rating is tops as well. His fielding percentage maybe the lowest (slightly lower than the 3 others), but remember, my argument wasn't that he was the best fielding first basemen, but that he was up there. According to these numbers, he may just be THE BEST defensive first basemen in the game.

TheKittle
12-19-2005, 03:00 PM
:rolleyes:
I look foolish? How many guys are disagreeing with you on this subject? Everyone but you thinks he's a good 1st basemen, but the almighty TheKittle knows best right?

"I've seen Pujols all the time", have you really? Even at the grocery store? At his local Best Buy? Give me a break. Pay attention buddy, I'm about to give you a ride to school.

Thanks to ESPN.com and Stats Inc. for the following numbers:
FPCT: Fielding Pct.((PO + A) divided by (PO + A + E))
RF: Range Factor ((PO + A) * 9 divided by innings)
ZR: Zone rating. The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone"

Derek Lee (2005 NL Gold Glove)
FPCT: .994
RF: 9.20
ZR: .860

Mark Teixeira (2005 AL Gold Glove)
FPCT: .996
RF: 9.71
ZR: .873

J.T. Snow
FPCT: .996
RF: 9.28
ZR: .825

Albert Pujols
FPCT: .992
RF: 10.53
ZR: .887


I got the career fielding stats for the 2005 Gold Glove winners at first base which include Derek Lee who you keep bringing up (rightfully so) and I also included J.T. Snow's stats who you keep bringing up. Make your excuses damn good ones as to why Pujols has a MUCH better Range Factor compared to your Dynamic Duo ad why his Zone Rating is tops as well. His fielding percentage maybe the lowest (slightly lower than the 3 others), but remember, my argument wasn't that he was the best fielding first basemen, but that he was up there. According to these numbers, he may just be THE BEST defensive first basemen in the game.


Good job, I can copy word for word from a book too. Stat nerds go back to Oakland. And we all know that defense is all about stats right??? Good job, Mr. I saw the Cardinals 6 games last year. You are sooo smart.

Hey they are telling Lee to give back the Gold Glove so they can give it to Pujols!!!!! The crime of the century to give the GG to somebody with stone hands like Lee.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-19-2005, 03:07 PM
Good job, I can copy word for word from a book too. Stat nerds go back to Oakland. And we all know that defense is all about stats right??? Good job, Mr. I saw the Cardinals 6 games last year. You are sooo smart.

Hey they are telling Lee to give back the Gold Glove so they can give it to Pujols!!!!! The crime of the century to give the GG to somebody with stone hands like Lee.

Mods, this is my last post arguing with this immature two-year old and I'm done so you don't have to close this thread down because of us.

If that's the best you can comeback with, "Stats nerds go back to Oakland", then I feel dumb for even bothering to read your posts, muchless to reply to them. Good-bye sir, I will leave you with this image that pretty much sums up what just happened to you and your argument....


http://www.funny-games.biz/pictures/owned/oukick.jpg

kittle42
12-19-2005, 03:07 PM
Good job, I can copy word for word from a book too. Stat nerds go back to Oakland. And we all know that defense is all about stats right??? Good job, Mr. I saw the Cardinals 6 games last year. You are sooo smart.

Hey they are telling Lee to give back the Gold Glove so they can give it to Pujols!!!!! The crime of the century to give the GG to somebody with stone hands like Lee.

The problem here is that at least your opponent in this argument is trying to back up his opinion with something, whether stats are applicable to defensive ability is another argument. Your retort is simply that your opponent is wrong.

Jjav829
12-19-2005, 03:27 PM
Peavy's gotta be added to my list. Brainfart there. As for Jose Beckett, has he officially defected to the US yet? And more importantly, doe he have the requisite 'Stache to share a first name with Valentin?:tongue:

Ahh yes, Jose Beckett. He has the talent and stuff of his half-brother Josh and the durability of Mark Buehrle. It's a great combination and I can't wait to see what he can do once he signs with a team. :tongue:

Hey, the "e" key and the "h" key are like right next to each other. :redface:

WhiteSoxFan84
12-19-2005, 03:30 PM
Hey, the "e" key and the "h" key are like right next to each other. :redface:

Would that qualify as serious as an attempted vehicular homicide in the eyes of the Teal Police? :D:

Jjav829
12-19-2005, 03:34 PM
Please. Pujols is far from Lee or Snow. He isn't even near the same zip code. Is he terrible? No. But he sure as hell can see terrible. And by say he isn't a Lee or Snow, doesn't that go against what you said earlier, that he up with the best of them??? Lee and Snow are among the best with the glove.

And yes he would DH.

Note the word "just" in my original post. It might be easy to glance over, but I put the word in for a reason. I said, "Oh, and he can just about field his position with the best of 'em." He's not Lee or Snow, but he's right up there after them.

You are flat out wrong if you think he would be a DH on any team other than a team with Derrek Lee. If you think he would be a DH then I guess you feel there are 14 first basemen better then Pujols, right? Well I'd love to hear how there are 14 first basemen better than Pujols.

I'd also like to hear how the Cardinals fan on this board feels about this, seeing as how he sees Pujols every game whereas my opinion is based simply on the games I watch on MLB Extra Innings, which isn't every day.

TheKittle
12-19-2005, 03:37 PM
Mods, this is my last post arguing with this immature two-year old and I'm done so you don't have to close this thread down because of us.

If that's the best you can comeback with, "Stats nerds go back to Oakland", then I feel dumb for even bothering to read your posts, muchless to reply to them. Good-bye sir, I will leave you with this image that pretty much sums up what just happened to you and your argument....


http://www.funny-games.biz/pictures/owned/oukick.jpg

Going to go crying to the mods? Geez you quote word for word from a book. Great job. Anybody who quotes stats to argue about defensive ability is somebody who has NO CLUE about the game.

What a waste of time. But then again you wasted more time by cutting and pasting something that is meaningless. Good job.

TheKittle
12-19-2005, 03:42 PM
Note the word "just" in my original post. It might be easy to glance over, but I put the word in for a reason. I said, "Oh, and he can just about field his position with the best of 'em." He's not Lee or Snow, but he's right up there after them.

You are flat out wrong if you think he would be a DH on any team other than a team with Derrek Lee. If you think he would be a DH then I guess you feel there are 14 first basemen better then Pujols, right? Well I'd love to hear how there are 14 first basemen better than Pujols.

I'd also like to hear how the Cardinals fan on this board feels about this, seeing as how he sees Pujols every game whereas my opinion is based simply on the games I watch on MLB Extra Innings, which isn't every day.

Is Pujols in the lineup for his glove or bat? Yeah that's what I thought. And he's not anywhere close to the Lee's or Snow's. Lee and Snow are 9-10. Pujols at beast is a 5. I guess to some people 4 is "close" but not to me.

Manny is among the worst defensive LF in the world. Right? But he still plays LF because the Red Sox don't have any other options. Right?? Well if Pujols was competing for 1st with somebody who hits 250, he would start at 1st and they would have another good hitter DH. But if a team had a good defensive 1st, who could hit 280, 25 hrs 90 rbis, Tino Martinez of the late 90's type) Pujols would be the DH. On the Angels Pujols would DH. Erstad with his gold glove would still start at 1st.

Jjav829
12-19-2005, 03:49 PM
Is Pujols in the lineup for his glove or bat? Yeah that's what I thought. And he's not anywhere close to the Lee's or Snow's. Lee and Snow are 9-10. Pujols at beast is a 5. I guess to some people 4 is "close" but not to me.

There is no way Pujols is a 4. Not a chance. You're completely off base here.

Manny is amoung the worst defensive LF in the world. Right? But he still plays LF because the Red Sox don't have any other options. Right?? Well if Pujols was competing for 1st with somebody who hits 250, he would start at 1st and they would have another good hitter DH. But if a team had a good defensive 1st, who could hit 280, 25 hrs 90 rbis, Tino Martinez of the late 90's type) Pujols would be the DH. On the Angels Pujols would DH. Erstad with his gold glove would still start at 1st.

So now you are comparing Pujols' defense to Manny's? http://www.prettyparrots.com/discussion/images/smilies/banghead.gif

Between this and the "Kyle Orton shouldn't have been replaced" crowd, I'm about ready to actually start slaming my head into a wall. Maybe then I'll see Kyle Orton as a great QB and Albert Pujols as a bad defensive first baseman.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-19-2005, 03:53 PM
Going to go crying to the mods? Geez you quote word for word from a book. Great job. Anybody who quotes stats to argue about defensive ability is somebody who has NO CLUE about the game.

What a waste of time. But then again you wasted more time by cutting and pasting something that is meaningless. Good job.

Crying to the mods? Crying? I'm trying to keep this thread open and out of the ****house, not "crying". I could say a lot more about you but it will go against the purpose of my last message which I apparently was "crying" in.

A book? What book? A website, yes, the same website I thanked IN MY POST. Stop looking in the mirror and telling yourself how smart and handsome you are and start paying attention to what you are reading.

Manny is amoung the worst defensive LF in the world. Right? But he still plays LF because the Red Sox don't have any other options. Right?? Well if Pujols was competing for 1st with somebody who hits 250, he would start at 1st and they would have another good hitter DH. But if a team had a good defensive 1st, who could hit 280, 25 hrs 90 rbis, Tino Martinez of the late 90's type) Pujols would be the DH. On the Angels Pujols would DH. Erstad with his gold glove would still start at 1st.

I don't know what's worse, Manny's defense or the fact that you can't spell AMONG. Do you realize NO ONE has come to your defense and agree with you that Pujols' defense is bad? What do you think that means? That everyone else is dumb? I HIGHLY doubt that. Anyway, you're entitled to your own opinion no matter how WRONG it is. And your's is very, extremely, gigantically, dead WRONG.

Albert Pujols 4 President!

WhiteSoxFan84
12-19-2005, 03:55 PM
Between this and the "Kyle Orton shouldn't have been replaced" crowd, I'm about ready to actually start slaming my head into a wall. Maybe then I'll see Kyle Orton as a great QB and Albert Pujols as a bad defensive first baseman.

And maybe then you'll realize that the control keys "E" and "H" are not that close to each other! :D:

TheKittle
12-19-2005, 03:56 PM
Crying to the mods? Crying? I'm trying to keep this thread open and out of the ****house, not "crying". I could say a lot more about you but it will go against my purpose of my last message which I apparently was "crying" in.

A book? What book? A website, yes, the same website I thanked IN MY POST. Stop looking in the mirror and telling yourself how smart and handsome you are and start paying attention to what you are reading.



I don't know what's worse, Manny's defense or the fact that you can't spell AMONG. Do you realize NO ONE has come to your defense and agree with you that Pujols' defense is bad? What do you think that means? That everyone else is dumb? I HIGHLY doubt that. After all, you're entitled to your own opinion no matter how WRONG it is. And your's is very, extremely, gigantically, dead WRONG.

Albert Pujols 4 President!

I thought you were done replying? Wow, one typo. Are you going to cry to the spelling mods? You have no clue about baseball. You are, as you put it, very, extremely, gigantically, dead WRONG about the game of baseball.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-19-2005, 04:02 PM
I thought you were done replying? Wow, one typo. Are you going to cry to the spelling mods? You have no clue about baseball. You are, as you put it, very, extremely, gigantically, dead WRONG about the game of baseball.

The ironic thing about this next pic is that the guy is wearing a Cardinals shirt, lool

http://www.unt.edu/westhall/images/moron.jpg

He couldn't have said it any better. He must be using the same dictionary you do :rolleyes:

And I'm seriously finished now. This argument should not even be this long.

Tekijawa
12-19-2005, 04:09 PM
Hitters
1. Albert Pujols
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Vladimir Guerrero
4. Manny Ramirez
5. Ichiro Suzuki
6. David Ortiz
7. Derek Lee
8. Miguel Tejada
9. Gary Shefield
10. Mark Texeria

Pitchers
1. Johan Santana
2. Roy Oswalt
3. Jake Peavy
4. Roy Halladay
5. Mark Buehrle
6. Mark Prior
7. Dontrell Willis
8. Bartolo Colon
9. Barry Zito
10. Mariano Rivera

SouthSide_HitMen
12-19-2005, 05:17 PM
Yesterday (Active players - best careers to date / Hall of Fame candidates in the game today):

Ivan Rodriguez C
Jeff Bagwell 1B
Craig Biggio 2B
Chipper Jones 3B (only player on list who will NOT make the HOF)
Alex Rodriguez SS
Barry Bonds LF
Ken Griffey Jr CF
Gary Sheffield RF
Frank Thomas DH

Roger Clemens SP
Greg Maddux SP
Randy Johnson SP
Tom Glavine SP
Pedro Martinez SP
John Smoltz SP

& Today - Players I would pick now on a sandlot if I could keep them for the rest of their career with no salary considerations:

Victor Martinez C
Albert Pujols 1B
Marcus Giles 2B
Miguel Tejada SS
David Wright 3B
Extra Infield Pick - Alex Rodriguez SS / 3B
Vladimir Guerrero RF
Carlos Beltran CF
Jason Bay LF
Miguel Cabrera DH

Honorable Mention
Joe Mauer C
Derek Lee 1B
Brian Roberts 2B
Mike Young SS
Eric Chavez 3B
Bobby Abreu RF
Andruw Jones CF
Adam Dunn LF

Young Pitchers - Starters only per thread rules:

1. Johan Santana
2. Dontrelle Willis
3. Mark Buehrle
4. Roy Halladay
5. Roy Oswalt
6. Jake Peavy
7. Carlos Zambrano
8. Jon Garland
9. Freddy Garcia
10. Mark Prior

fquaye149
12-19-2005, 06:58 PM
I thought you were done replying? Wow, one typo. Are you going to cry to the spelling mods? You have no clue about baseball. You are, as you put it, very, extremely, gigantically, dead WRONG about the game of baseball.
My goodness - this is insane. The two-year old play going on here is out of control.

Look - if you don't want to believe that Pujols has a good glove at first base, go ahead. Apparently no stats, nor credible scouting reports can tell you differently.

You think because he can hit he can't play first base. That's the only explanation.

You asked "is he in his lineup for his bat or for his glove?" Funny, I didn't know a manager couldn't put well-rounded players in their lineups. Is A-rod in the Yankees lineup for his bat or for his glove? Is Mark Teixeira in the lineup for his bat or for his glove? Is Ivan Rodriguez in the lineup for his bat or for his glove?

This is absolutely insane. I can think of maybe two teams Pujols would DH for and that's the Cubs and the Rangers.

And it's debatable that he would even DH there. I bet if Pujols went to Wrigleyville or Arlington and told him that he would hit better as a 1B they'd put him there. Especially since you really don't give up THAT much defense by putting a man who, in two or three years, will be a top contender for gold glove at first base.


coincidentally this is the scouting report from espn.com on Pujols defense:

After three years of moving between third base, first base and left field, the Cardinals made Pujols their everyday first baseman last year. Despite limited range, he grew into a solid defensive asset with an accurate arm and improving ability to pick low throws from the dirt.


this was prior to this year where he improved significantly at 1B. The fact of the matter is no matter who you ask Pujols is a very solid to above average first baseman. All accounts are that he will become a gold glove contender in the near future. The statistics support it. The scouts support it. You can say "go back to Oakland" if you want, but how then can you discard scouting reports? Or is there a third school of thought I'm unaware of - the "TheKittle is always right" school of thought. Funny, I've never heard of that one before, and I don't expect to hear from it again...

kittle42
12-19-2005, 09:21 PM
The fact of the matter is no matter who you ask Pujols is a very solid to above average first baseman. All accounts are that he will become a gold glove contender in the near future. The statistics support it. The scouts support it. You can say "go back to Oakland" if you want, but how then can you discard scouting reports? Or is there a third school of thought I'm unaware of - the "TheKittle is always right" school of thought. Funny, I've never heard of that one before, and I don't expect to hear from it again...

No No No No No No No No!!!!!

:redneck

fquaye149
12-19-2005, 11:09 PM
No No No No No No No No!!!!!

:redneck


I wasn't talking about grammar - otherwise I would have said: "the only school of thought is: Kittle42 is always right!"

kittle42
12-19-2005, 11:14 PM
I wasn't talking about grammar - otherwise I would have said: "the only school of thought is: Kittle42 is always right!"

Not always...I just don't comment when I might be wrong. :wink:

fquaye149
12-19-2005, 11:31 PM
Not always...I just don't comment when I might be wrong. :wink:

So THAT'S your secret!:o:

:D: