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RetireWoodys28
12-17-2005, 08:38 PM
Barring the potential of El Duque's recurring shoulder problem leading to a failed physical-- and thus a non-trade (admit it all you Chris Young geeks, you've at least thought about it), Young is gone. What does this say about the team's confidence in both Anderson and Owens?

Even a couple weeks prior to the Mackowiak deal, Ozzie was in Venezuela talking up Jerry Owens. Anderson already seems like a lock for next year. I'd previously felt there was a good chance Owens would be a part of some future Sox OF, but does Young's departure speed up, slow down, or have no impact on Owens' progression through the system next season? Granted, ST will determine a lot, but does this deal show something about Sox comfort level with Owens development in particular? Or are we just so deep out there that Young was simply as expendable as anyone else? Though I've never actually seen him play, from what I've heard and read I really thought that guy was going to be special for us. :(:

caulfield12
12-17-2005, 09:13 PM
Barring the potential of El Duque's recurring shoulder problem leading to a failed physical-- and thus a non-trade (admit it all you Chris Young geeks, you've at least thought about it), Young is gone. What does this say about the team's confidence in both Anderson and Owens?

Even a couple weeks prior to the Mackowiak deal, Ozzie was in Venezuela talking up Jerry Owens. Anderson already seems like a lock for next year. I'd previously felt there was a good chance Owens would be a part of some future Sox OF, but does Young's departure speed up, slow down, or have no impact on Owens' progression through the system next season? Granted, ST will determine a lot, but does this deal show something about Sox comfort level with Owens development in particular? Or are we just so deep out there that Young was simply as expendable as anyone else? Though I've never actually seen him play, from what I've heard and read I really thought that guy was going to be special for us. :(:

I think it might have been something of a vote of confidence in Owens...but, mostly, that Young was the hottest and best of our prospects, and was the target of the D/Backs all along as soon as it became Vazquez and money for El Duque and not Garland.

Owens is believed by many not to have the instincts necessary to play CF. Because of his weak arm, he is believed to be the cheap replacement for Pods when Scott is no longer affordable or when he loses that burst. Owens would likely be the first outfielder recalled...as we would prefer someone like Borchard or Perez as the 4th OF so as to allow Owens and Sweeney to keep progressing in the minors.

I do not think our offense could support an outfield of Pods, Owens and Brian Anderson/Jermaine Dye. I also think that puts too much pressure on BA in 2007 if JD in fact leaves as a FA. That would also put an awful lot of pressure on Thome and Konerko to hit for power...we'll see, some variation was considered with Pierre in CF and Pods in LF, although KW has maintained he never once spoke with the Marlins about Juan.

sircaffey1
12-17-2005, 10:39 PM
I think ultimately, if Owens develops he will replace Pods and not play along side him.

KRS1
12-17-2005, 10:53 PM
I think ultimately, if Owens develops he will replace Pods and not play along side him.

I think youre right, we just cant afford to have less than 5 hrs from two of our OF spots, that would just suck. BA will be our CF and I think his power #s will spike in the majors giving him 20+hr potential next year. Not that I expect him to hit that many I just think he could, and even more in the future.

Brian26
12-18-2005, 12:02 PM
I wish we could have sent Owens to Arizona instead of Young though.

Tragg
12-19-2005, 11:28 AM
I think it might have been something of a vote of confidence in Owens...but, mostly, that Young was the hottest and best of our prospects, and was the target of the D/Backs all along as soon as it became Vazquez and money for El Duque and not Garland.

I do not think our offense could support an outfield of Pods, Owens and Brian Anderson/Jermaine Dye. I also think that puts too much pressure on BA in 2007 if JD in fact leaves as a FA. That would also put an awful lot of pressure on Thome and Konerko to hit for power...we'll see, some variation was considered with Pierre in CF and Pods in LF, although KW has maintained he never once spoke with the Marlins about Juan.
So had we thrown in Garland, we could have saved Young? Then we should expect more than a Young quality player when we trade Garland? Sounds fine to me.
I think Owens is a replacement for POds; Anderson ultimately a replacement for Dye, and we'll need to find a center fielder (we just traded our CF and top CF prospect) and probably a lead-off hitter.

nodiggity59
12-19-2005, 01:57 PM
So had we thrown in Garland, we could have saved Young? Then we should expect more than a Young quality player when we trade Garland? Sounds fine to me.
I think Owens is a replacement for POds; Anderson ultimately a replacement for Dye, and we'll need to find a center fielder (we just traded our CF and top CF prospect) and probably a lead-off hitter.

Owens is a lead off hitter or he's not an MLB starter. He has no other conceivable value.

Ol' No. 2
12-19-2005, 04:40 PM
So had we thrown in Garland, we could have saved Young? Then we should expect more than a Young quality player when we trade Garland? Sounds fine to me.
I think Owens is a replacement for POds; Anderson ultimately a replacement for Dye, and we'll need to find a center fielder (we just traded our CF and top CF prospect) and probably a lead-off hitter.Not necessarily. AZ desperately needed a CF - so much so that it's even money Young will open the season with AZ, even though he should spend at least half a year in AAA. People think of this deal as Hernandez+Vizcaino+Young, but IMO, it's really YOUNG+Hernandez+Vizcaino.

Anderson can play both CF and RF, so that gives them some options for 2007. Sweeney might be ready by then, and IIRC, he can play RF. The Sox have a team option for Dye for 2007, if needed.

Chipol
12-19-2005, 07:02 PM
So had we thrown in Garland, we could have saved Young? Then we should expect more than a Young quality player when we trade Garland? Sounds fine to me.
I think Owens is a replacement for POds; Anderson ultimately a replacement for Dye, and we'll need to find a center fielder (we just traded our CF and top CF prospect) and probably a lead-off hitter. I thought Borchard was our top CF prospect?

Mr. White Sox
12-21-2005, 05:20 AM
This Guy (http://warmoctobernights.com/?p=43) is not a fan of Jerry Owens; do you think he'll get some major ABs in ST?


- Jerry Owens (OF): One of the faster players in an organization that looks for speed in its youngsters, Owens’ is unfortunately also an outfielder, the Sox deepest position within their system; Young, Anderson and Sweeney are all regarded more highly, and I’d even rate Nanita as a better prospect. Expecting anything more than Dave Roberts with a worse stolen base percentage will probably lead to disappointment.

This obviously was written before the Chris Young trade...

Hagan
12-21-2005, 09:31 AM
This Guy (http://warmoctobernights.com/?p=43) is not a fan of Jerry Owens; do you think he'll get some major ABs in ST?


This obviously was written before the Chris Young trade...
A big problem with owens is that he is a speed type player who needs to steal and get on base to be effectie, but last year he was caught stealing 20 times and made it on base 38 times. a 65% succes rate is not good at all.

Randar68
12-21-2005, 10:49 AM
A big problem with owens is that he is a speed type player who needs to steal and get on base to be effectie, but last year he was caught stealing 20 times and made it on base 38 times. a 65% succes rate is not good at all.

Check out Pods' numbers in the minors. Stealing Bases is an art, and Owens is still learning. On top of that, those that saw him play nearly every day insist he is a better base-stealer than the numbers indicate.

Also, the guy who rates Nanita as a better prospect had better get his damned head examined. What, is this 2003? I like Nanita to a certain degree, but he was 24 in Winston-Salem last year and he's STILL raw defensively last I heard. It will be interesting to see him in Birmingham this year though.

Hagan
12-21-2005, 11:20 AM
Check out Pods' numbers in the minors. Stealing Bases is an art, and Owens is still learning. On top of that, those that saw him play nearly every day insist he is a better base-stealer than the numbers indicate.

Also, the guy who rates Nanita as a better prospect had better get his damned head examined. What, is this 2003? I like Nanita to a certain degree, but he was 24 in Winston-Salem last year and he's STILL raw defensively last I heard. It will be interesting to see him in Birmingham this year though.

he never did. the article has just random players after the top 10 list in no order that he talks about.

Randar68
12-21-2005, 11:32 AM
he never did. the article has just random players after the top 10 list in no order that he talks about.

*** were you reading?



Owens’ is unfortunately also an outfielder, the Sox deepest position within their system; Young, Anderson and Sweeney are all regarded more highly, and I’d even rate Nanita as a better prospect.

Hagan
12-21-2005, 11:49 AM
*** were you reading?
eh i missed that one but jerry owens is very overrated in my opinion. All he has to offer is base stealing ability that isnt even proven yet. He should not be starting with the white sox next year and if he even makes the team he should only be a pitch runner. I know you compaired him to Scott Podsednik but Scott had a break out year when he entered the league and saying that this guys stats are like Pods is like saying this guy was drafted in the 59th round like Piazza. It gives a glimps of hope but doesnt prove anything. He might find a way to cut down his caught stealing but untill then he shouldnt be ranked high at all on the white sox list.

Randar68
12-21-2005, 12:19 PM
eh i missed that one but jerry owens is very overrated in my opinion. All he has to offer is base stealing ability that isnt even proven yet. He should not be starting with the white sox next year and if he even makes the team he should only be a pitch runner. I know you compaired him to Scott Podsednik but Scott had a break out year when he entered the league and saying that this guys stats are like Pods is like saying this guy was drafted in the 59th round like Piazza. It gives a glimps of hope but doesnt prove anything. He might find a way to cut down his caught stealing but untill then he shouldnt be ranked high at all on the white sox list.

You're right, the fact he skipped High-A and hit mid-300's in AA and then proceeded to hit .356 in half of a winter-league season in Venezuela...

You're right, all he can offer is stolen bases...

:whoflungpoo

Hagan
12-21-2005, 12:39 PM
Can you not be a chode when you talk on here? You dont know how his batting average is going to translate into the big leagues. He does have some plate patience which is crucial for a leadoff or number two hitter but the big thing that he brings right now is his speed and it is not major league ready. There have been a lot of players over the years who have had great averages in the minors but have not had one in the majors. He still has a while to go right now untill he can help the Sox more than Andseron can. I hope he has an awesome year next year in the majors or minors where ever he may be, but with his stats right now he is a bit overrated in my opinion.

Randar68
12-21-2005, 12:55 PM
Can you not be a chode when you talk on here? You dont know how his batting average is going to translate into the big leagues. He does have some plate patience which is crucial for a leadoff or number two hitter but the big thing that he brings right now is his speed and it is not major league ready. There have been a lot of players over the years who have had great averages in the minors but have not had one in the majors. He still has a while to go right now untill he can help the Sox more than Andseron can. I hope he has an awesome year next year in the majors or minors where ever he may be, but with his stats right now he is a bit overrated in my opinion.

OBP is the #1 priority for a leadoff hitter. Speed after that is a bonus. There are plenty of lead-off type players in this league who benefit their teams by simply getting on base yet have nowhere near the speed of base-stealing potential of a Jerry Owens.

How is he "overrated?" WHat is he "rated"? He's in the organization's top ten, but not the top 3 or 4, IMO...

If all you're going to do is look at box scores to rate players and act like you know what you're talking about, please, don't bother.

Hagan
12-21-2005, 01:12 PM
he is rated by some as our starting center fielder which i think is not a good idea right now. He is overrated in the sense that he is not major league ready yet.

Randar68
12-21-2005, 01:26 PM
he is rated by some as our starting center fielder which i think is not a good idea right now. He is overrated in the sense that he is not major league ready yet.

Please provide a link to anyone stupid enough to rate Jerry Owens as anybody's CF'er.

No more "some" or "people"... start providing links and names.

Who said MLB-readiness has anything to do with how prospects are rated?

:kukoo:

Hagan
12-21-2005, 02:24 PM
Once again you have to be a jerk for no reason which makes me wish you would drink a cup of bleach. Just look around a bit at this and other message boards about people who think Owens is ready to start or will be competing against anderson to start. Also I just said i thought he was overrated. I am not talking about where he falls on a list I am saying as a player he is overrated. Players in the pros can be overrated to, like Derek Jeter's defence for example. He is clearly good enough for the Majors but he is rated higher than I think he is. Here are your links that talk about Owens competing for the Cf position which he would have trouble playing defensively:
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051214&content_id=36250&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp
http://bestblog.mlblogs.com/inside_pitch/2005/11/gillick_tkos_wi.html
http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/flb/playernewsarchive?statsId=6489
this one above isnt an article but it talks about what the daily herald said

Randar68
12-21-2005, 02:32 PM
Also I just said i thought he was overrated.

And you base this belief on seeing him play? Hell, most baseball "experts" I've read peg him as not much more than a 4th OF'er...

Randar68
12-21-2005, 02:39 PM
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051214&content_id=36250&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051214&content_id=36250&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp)

Written by Scott Merkin, official Sox propagandist on MLB.com and states nothing more than "Young was expected to compete with Brian Anderson for the starting center field spot, as is Jerry Owens. "

http://bestblog.mlblogs.com/inside_pitch/2005/11/gillick_tkos_wi.html (http://bestblog.mlblogs.com/inside_pitch/2005/11/gillick_tkos_wi.html) LOL. A baseball blog site where a reader comments on Owens being MLB-ready but the author disagreeing... :rolleyes:

http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/flb/playernewsarchive?statsId=6489 (http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/flb/playernewsarchive?statsId=6489)


Well, the "White Sox will audition Jerry Owens in CF"...

Anybody who has seen Jerry Owens play knows he is NOT a CF'er, pure and simple. Nobody with an unbiased opinion that I have read. Not those that saw him play every home game like a couple posters around here. Not any of the others like myself, maurice, or rdivaldi...

But I guess a few people who don't know what they are talking about even mention Jerry Owens in the same sentence as spring training, CF, or MLB and suddenly it's a commonly-held belief among those who know anything about anything... :whatever:

A. Cavatica
12-21-2005, 03:11 PM
It's not out of the question that Owens could learn to play CF -- after all, Rowand made himself into a pretty good CF, and he never had Owens' speed.

Owens is not an option in CF now, but if he could make himself into a better CF than Podsednik he would give the Sox some interesting options.

maurice
12-21-2005, 03:40 PM
It's true that some mediots have suggested that Owens is in an open competition for the Sox CF job. This is nonsense. (The same mediots falsely claimed that the Sox were after Pierre and that Anderson is a corner OF.) The Sox have made it clear that CF belongs to Anderson. Owens is not currently a MLB CF, and the Sox know this. He's been a LF since he entered the Sox organization, including his time playing in Venezuela under Cora. While he may eventually become a servicable CF, he's not one right now. As far as I know, nobody in the Sox organization or anybody who knows anything about the Sox organization ever claimed otherwise.

With Young gone, maybe Owens will get the chance to play CF at Charlotte. In the extremely unlikely event that Owens starts for the Sox this year, he'd play LF with Podsednik in CF.
:o:

TaylorStSox
12-21-2005, 06:45 PM
Is Nook Logan a comparable player to Owens? Maybe worse in the field, but a better hitter?

Lprof
12-21-2005, 10:18 PM
It's true that some mediots have suggested that Owens is in an open competition for the Sox CF job. This is nonsense. (The same mediots falsely claimed that the Sox were after Pierre and that Anderson is a corner OF.) The Sox have made it clear that CF belongs to Anderson. Owens is not currently a MLB CF, and the Sox know this. He's been a LF since he entered the Sox organization, including his time playing in Venezuela under Cora. While he may eventually become a servicable CF, he's not one right now. As far as I know, nobody in the Sox organization or anybody who knows anything about the Sox organization ever claimed otherwise.

With Young gone, maybe Owens will get the chance to play CF at Charlotte. In the extremely unlikely event that Owens starts for the Sox this year, he'd play LF with Podsednik in CF.
:o:Assuming you are right about Owens (and I know nothing to the contrary), if Anderson is a flop--certainly a possibility; remember Borchard as a "can't miss"--then what the hell do we do? Move Pods there? Certainly not ideal. If, by June, Anderson is hitting 200 and is the equivalent of having a pitcher bat (which hopefully won't happen, but who knows?), it is by no means clear to me what happens next.

Randar68
12-22-2005, 12:17 PM
Assuming you are right about Owens (and I know nothing to the contrary), if Anderson is a flop--certainly a possibility; remember Borchard as a "can't miss"--then what the hell do we do? Move Pods there? Certainly not ideal. If, by June, Anderson is hitting 200 and is the equivalent of having a pitcher bat (which hopefully won't happen, but who knows?), it is by no means clear to me what happens next.

And "if" the world ends tomorrow or "if" the sun fails to rise...

anything "could" happen.

Borchard was "can't miss"???? News to me. Everyone under the sun was concerned about his long swing and propensity to K at a high rate. All the projections for him assumed he figured that part of the game out because the physical talent was astounding.

Owens or Pods could play CF in a pinch, but again, WHO CARES IF BRIAN ANDERSON IS HITTING .230? Crede and Uribe did for most of the first half of 2005. Hell, Paul Konerko did for the first 2 months. We're not asking Brian Anderson to be a pivotal member of the offense. He's primarily being asked to play great Defense and hit at the bottom of the order.

RetireWoodys28
12-22-2005, 04:06 PM
Once again you have to be a jerk for no reason which makes me wish you would drink a cup of bleach.I hate it when people get all sentimental and sappy around the Holidays...:hug:

WARMEST, BLEACH-FREE SEASONS GREETINGS TO ALL OF YOU!

caulfield12
12-22-2005, 04:19 PM
Assuming you are right about Owens (and I know nothing to the contrary), if Anderson is a flop--certainly a possibility; remember Borchard as a "can't miss"--then what the hell do we do? Move Pods there? Certainly not ideal. If, by June, Anderson is hitting 200 and is the equivalent of having a pitcher bat (which hopefully won't happen, but who knows?), it is by no means clear to me what happens next.

Then we stick Mackowiak out there...and we get an Eric Byrnes or the equivalent and sign him to a split major/minor contract as insurance for Anderson.

Problem solved.

BHAMBARONS
12-22-2005, 08:01 PM
I seen Owens play around 100 games last season and he was in center only 2 times that I can remeber and the teams ran on him all game that is why when CY went down Darren Blakely played center not Owens. I think it says something if he can't even beat out Darren Blakely for the CF spot

KRS1
12-22-2005, 09:06 PM
I seen Owens play around 100 games last season and he was in center only 2 times that I can remeber and the teams ran on him all game that is why when CY went down Darren Blakely played center not Owens. I think it says something if he can't even beat out Darren Blakely for the CF spot

I saw.

Save McCuddy's
02-07-2006, 09:08 PM
Is this an inappropriate spot for me to mention that I really wish we hadn't traded Young?

The numbers state the case fairly obviously that he's the best offensive prospect that we had. Add to that the fact that he not only is the only true center fielder of that group, but also extremely highly rated defensively at this point of his career.

I think we're a better team today and in the future if we had parted with garland in that deal -- or had we not made the deal at all.

BUT -- before you come blasting at me, God Bless Kenny Williams for he has made my life complete already.

Ol' No. 2
02-08-2006, 09:50 AM
Is this an inappropriate spot for me to mention that I really wish we hadn't traded Young?

The numbers state the case fairly obviously that he's the best offensive prospect that we had. Add to that the fact that he not only is the only true center fielder of that group, but also extremely highly rated defensively at this point of his career.

I think we're a better team today and in the future if we had parted with garland in that deal -- or had we not made the deal at all.

BUT -- before you come blasting at me, God Bless Kenny Williams for he has made my life complete already.This is like a flashback to 2004 when the Sox traded Jeremy Reed. You might want to wait and see how things turn out. I think Javier Vazquez will win 15+ games this year.

Randar68
02-08-2006, 11:54 AM
The numbers state the case fairly obviously that he's the best offensive prospect that we had. Add to that the fact that he not only is the only true center fielder of that group, but also extremely highly rated defensively at this point of his career.

I think there is a lot of remorse over it, but it is all about salary/money these days, and at the price for Vazquez relative to what the market showed, it was worth giving up an unproven AA CF'er.

He isn't the best defensive CF'er out of our prospect group or the only true CF'er. Anderson is the best and most complete defensive player among them.

Hangar18
02-08-2006, 12:06 PM
Is this an inappropriate spot for me to mention that I really wish we hadn't traded Young?



You'll be called a Dark Cloud and have your own thread ...........:smile:

Gee
02-08-2006, 01:05 PM
All he has to offer is base stealing ability that isnt even proven yet.

Last time I looked he led the Southern League in hitting and hit for a great average in Venezuela!!:smile:

MadetoOrta
02-08-2006, 01:06 PM
You'll be called a Dark Cloud and have your own thread ...........:smile:

After winning the World Series, are Dark Clouds a thing of the past?

caulfield12
02-08-2006, 03:43 PM
After winning the World Series, are Dark Clouds a thing of the past?

I, for one, made a personal vow to stop obsessing about the Ritchie and Koch deals and what might have been had both those deals not gone down, along with the signing of Royce Clayton.

The way you almost have to look at it is that we were never going to win the WS under J. Manuel, so things happened for a reason and we just sort of lucked into Ozzie. Hopefully, we will still be saying that 3 or 5 years from now about Oz.

I do not think that Jeremy Reed will ever be MUCH better than Aaron Rowand, if he does reach that point. Chris Young and Gio Gonzalez are obviously the biggest risks we have yet to make with a trade...and there is a decent chance that Josh Rupe will be a pretty decent MLB pitcher. Still, who wouldnt prefer to have the WS Trophy? And Frank Francisco did not turn out to be such a solid citizen, not to mention his injury problems. We are MUCH better off with Jenks, IMO.

I thought adding D. Wells in 2001 would help put us over the top, and at least KW has made every possible attempt to better the Sox teams at mid-season...either dumping for youth or acquiring talent. You can argue with the philosophy that you should try to put the best team together in April and May instead of waiting until July 31st, but it was an economic reality for the Sox, so there is no point belabouring that fact.

California Sox
02-08-2006, 05:47 PM
I wonder over the next five years who is going to be better Reed or Rowand. I think Reed will be considerably better than he was last year, but not necessarily an All Star. I actually think Reed>Rowand defensively but that's debatable. Rowand has a very short, compact swing but he expanded the zone so much last year that he got himself out a ton. I'd expect him to bounce back some in Philly simply because they'll still challenge you in the NL and if they try to blow ARow away with fastballs, he'll kill them.

As far as Young is concerned, no one loved him more than me, but it's time to let him go. I wish him success in what should eventually be a killer lineup in AZ. (I just wish I liked Vazquez more.) Now it all depends on Anderson developing and Sweeney taking a step forward in the power department. If those guys approach their ceilings we won't miss C Young too much. And if they fail, there's always Anderson Gomes.

Ol' No. 2
02-08-2006, 07:23 PM
I just wish I liked Vazquez more.You will, although maybe not right away. He's going to be this year's version of Jose Contreras. But have a little patience.

Save McCuddy's
02-09-2006, 09:09 AM
This is like a flashback to 2004 when the Sox traded Jeremy Reed. You might want to wait and see how things turn out. I think Javier Vazquez will win 15+ games this year.

Actually, it's nothing like 2004. These two trades are very disimilar.

Reed was traded in mid-season for a frontline starter to help a thinning rotation keep us in the playoff hunt. At the time, Rowand was looking like the answer for years to come in center and our minor league depth was solid.

This time around, we traded from a position of weakness to add to our biggest strength. I like Vazquez and think we'll get 15 W's out of him, but I would rather we shored up our center field situation instead of trading Young who I think we'll immerge as the best major leaguer of the group (Reed, Anderson, Owens). That being said, the component of dumping El Duque's salary was very intelligent.

No dark clouds -- just the healthy cynicism that is any life-long Sox fan's birthright. Revel in the title, but don't go Cubbie soft on management.

To be fair, I screamed out the window and laid on my horn cheering when the Thome trade came over the radio.

Ol' No. 2
02-09-2006, 09:43 AM
Actually, it's nothing like 2004. These two trades are very disimilar.

Reed was traded in mid-season for a frontline starter to help a thinning rotation keep us in the playoff hunt. At the time, Rowand was looking like the answer for years to come in center and our minor league depth was solid.

This time around, we traded from a position of weakness to add to our biggest strength. I like Vazquez and think we'll get 15 W's out of him, but I would rather we shored up our center field situation instead of trading Young who I think we'll immerge as the best major leaguer of the group (Reed, Anderson, Owens). That being said, the component of dumping El Duque's salary was very intelligent.

No dark clouds -- just the healthy cynicism that is any life-long Sox fan's birthright. Revel in the title, but don't go Cubbie soft on management.

To be fair, I screamed out the window and laid on my horn cheering when the Thome trade came over the radio.If anything, the Sox OF situation is stronger now than it was when they traded Reed. In June 2004 they had:

Magglio Ordonez on the DL, who was set to walk (or hobble) at the end of the season,
Aaron Rowand, who would have a career year in 2004, but who was still struggling a bit at the time of the trade,
Carlos Lee, who may have already been on Ozzie's **** list,
Joe Borchard as the only other significant OF talent in the high minors.

Right now they have a set OF for at least two more years and at least two other good AAA-level OF prospects.

Also, at the time of the Vazquez trade, 40% of their starting rotation was set to walk after 2006, so you could consider this a strength only if you took the myopic view of only considering 2006.

White Sox Randy
02-09-2006, 10:11 AM
Don't forget Anderson Gomes. I'm hearing reports that he just ran the shuttle run in 7.45 seconds and made 46 layups in under 5 minutes.

Additionally, he threw 216 feet in the softball throw and hung from his knees on the monkey bars and then let go and still landed on his feet!

He should be ready for the Sox by the end of April/early May.

The good news is that Podsednik will be able to rest and steal more bases because Gomes will be able to cover left field and center field.

Randar68
02-09-2006, 01:28 PM
Don't forget Anderson Gomes. I'm hearing reports that he just ran the shuttle run in 7.45 seconds and made 46 layups in under 5 minutes.

Additionally, he threw 216 feet in the softball throw and hung from his knees on the monkey bars and then let go and still landed on his feet!

He should be ready for the Sox by the end of April/early May.

The good news is that Podsednik will be able to rest and steal more bases because Gomes will be able to cover left field and center field.

:dumbpeople:

Ol' No. 2
02-09-2006, 02:11 PM
Don't forget Anderson Gomes. I'm hearing reports that he just ran the shuttle run in 7.45 seconds and made 46 layups in under 5 minutes.

Additionally, he threw 216 feet in the softball throw and hung from his knees on the monkey bars and then let go and still landed on his feet!

He should be ready for the Sox by the end of April/early May.

The good news is that Podsednik will be able to rest and steal more bases because Gomes will be able to cover left field and center field.Did you hear this from your mother-in-law?:wink:

caulfield12
02-09-2006, 03:04 PM
If anything, the Sox OF situation is stronger now than it was when they traded Reed. In June 2004 they had:

Magglio Ordonez on the DL, who was set to walk (or hobble) at the end of the season,
Aaron Rowand, who would have a career year in 2004, but who was still struggling a bit at the time of the trade,
Carlos Lee, who may have already been on Ozzie's **** list,
Joe Borchard as the only other significant OF talent in the high minors.

Right now they have a set OF for at least two more years and at least two other good AAA-level OF prospects.

Also, at the time of the Vazquez trade, 40% of their starting rotation was set to walk after 2006, so you could consider this a strength only if you took the myopic view of only considering 2006.

Yep, I am still hoping for Sweeney to mature, work through his injury problems and become the best of the bunch. Borchard never had the type of ST Sweeney had a couple of years ago. We know he has the swing mechanics that you could never teach 1,000 Joe Borchards if you had a decade.

KRS1
02-09-2006, 03:49 PM
Yep, I am still hoping for Sweeney to mature, work through his injury problems and become the best of the bunch. Borchard never had the type of ST Sweeney had a couple of years ago. We know he has the swing mechanics that you could never teach 1,000 Joe Borchards if you had a decade.
The ST you speak of was last year, and yes it was ridiculous. He was mashing and playing some sick defense the whole time. I sat in the seats in the front row of the RF foul line for a couple of his games, and his pick and throw skills are out of this world. Not only because he chucks the ball hard as anyone I saw, but his transition between the scoop and toss was smooth and effortless, and even with his back turned to the play he put the ball on spot every time. He got on base way too much for any 19 year old getting his first hacks versus major competition, and the ball was screaming off his bat so hard it looked like it was knuckling. After that I have no doubt what kind of player he can be. I find it funny some people doubt what he can do, even after playing through a tough injury while at the same time hitting nearly .300 in a league he was new to and one of the youngest players in.

Not only will he continue mature and emerge as the best of the bunch, he already is doing so. One injury is not a problem as you put it, especially when you play through it and put up those kind of numbers.

Save McCuddy's
02-10-2006, 09:34 AM
If anything, the Sox OF situation is stronger now than it was when they traded Reed. In June 2004 they had:

Magglio Ordonez on the DL, who was set to walk (or hobble) at the end of the season,
Aaron Rowand, who would have a career year in 2004, but who was still struggling a bit at the time of the trade,
Carlos Lee, who may have already been on Ozzie's **** list,
Joe Borchard as the only other significant OF talent in the high minors.

Right now they have a set OF for at least two more years and at least two other good AAA-level OF prospects.

Also, at the time of the Vazquez trade, 40% of their starting rotation was set to walk after 2006, so you could consider this a strength only if you took the myopic view of only considering 2006.

It'll take more than fancy vocabulary to convince me that this trade was as necessary as the Reed/Olivo for Garcia deal. Granted, much of my chagrin is colored by the fact that I'm attached to Young and think he's going to be a great one; however my main emphasis is on the why. 2006 is the main focus, myopic or not. The starting rotation was set and set extremely well. In addition, it made very good economics of baseball sense to plug McCarthy into the rotation as his arbitration/free agency clock has started to tick.

Add Vasquez to this mix and you have upgraded the staff and addressed the '07 depth situation. No question. But, there has to be a part II for this trade to make sense. I would have applauded the deal if Garland could have been dealt to Tampa for a package that included Upton or if Contreras to Philly were more than a hoax.

Where you find this outfield situation to be deeper than '04, I can't agree. We have an untested center fielder who has yet to demonstrate defensive comfort at the position. Our left fielder is that rare breed of players that breaks into the majors after his 27th birthday which bodes for a short inconsistent career. In right we're solid for this season and next. I guess I'd feel better if I could feel like BP that Anderson is on Van Slyke's career path. Here's hoping he is.

Ol' No. 2
02-10-2006, 10:09 AM
Granted, much of my chagrin is colored by the fact that I'm attached to Young and think he's going to be a great one;And this is exactly where this situation resembles the Reed trade. To hear the moaning and gnashing of teeth by the FOJR you'd have thought we were trading away a sure hall-of-famer. Didn't quite work out that way, and there's no telling with Chris Young, either. If Brian Anderson is unproven, what is Chris Young?
2006 is the main focus, myopic or not.I'm so sick of hearing the "who cares about next year? We have to go for it all THIS year" thing. Anyone who said the same thing last year should be disqualified from saying it again this year.
Where you find this outfield situation to be deeper than '04, I can't agree. We have an untested center fielder who has yet to demonstrate defensive comfort at the position. Our left fielder is that rare breed of players that breaks into the majors after his 27th birthday which bodes for a short inconsistent career. In right we're solid for this season and next. I guess I'd feel better if I could feel like BP that Anderson is on Van Slyke's career path. Here's hoping he is.IIRC, Aaron Rowand was hovering around the Mendoza line for the first couple of months of 2004. It was only later that he finally began to hit. At the time of the Garcia trade, there were a lot of people who wanted to ship Aaron Rowand out of town for a bag of balls. To infer that he was "proven" while Anderson is not is only by application of hindsight. And you can't seriously argue that the depth in the high minors is not far greater now than it was in 2004.

Save McCuddy's
02-10-2006, 10:23 AM
'02 --

To clarify:

I have never said "who cares about next year". As a matter of fact, among my main points of emphasis in this debate is the need to start McCarthy asap so that he will mature and make increased impact at low cost in the coming seasons. And obviously my lament to lose Young has nothing to do with immediate impact but with the future.

I never listed Rowand as more proven than Anderson. I simply stated that center field will be occupied by an unproven player in '06. I still disagree that an outfield with a healthy Carlos Lee and supposedly returning Ordonez was less deep than our current mix. At the time of the Reed deal, it was thought that Borchard would be the heir apparent and athletic enough to play center. Anderson was in the system in low ball with a great deal of promise.

Furthermore, I am new to the boards, never complained about Reed's departure but actually cheered that trade. Trade prospects or play them. Get value for them before they become Scott Ruffcorn is my motto.

In conclusion -- my point is that Vasquez is more of a luxury than Garcia was when acquired.

Save McCuddy's
02-10-2006, 10:24 AM
Pardon me, I meant Ol' No. 2.

Ol' No. 2
02-10-2006, 10:45 AM
'02 --

To clarify:

I have never said "who cares about next year". As a matter of fact, among my main points of emphasis in this debate is the need to start McCarthy asap so that he will mature and make increased impact at low cost in the coming seasons. And obviously my lament to lose Young has nothing to do with immediate impact but with the future.

I never listed Rowand as more proven than Anderson. I simply stated that center field will be occupied by an unproven player in '06. I still disagree that an outfield with a healthy Carlos Lee and supposedly returning Ordonez was less deep than our current mix. At the time of the Reed deal, it was thought that Borchard would be the heir apparent and athletic enough to play center. Anderson was in the system in low ball with a great deal of promise.

Furthermore, I am new to the boards, never complained about Reed's departure but actually cheered that trade. Trade prospects or play them. Get value for them before they become Scott Ruffcorn is my motto.

In conclusion -- my point is that Vasquez is more of a luxury than Garcia was when acquired.Vazquez only became a "luxury" because they subsequently signed Jon Garland. At the time of the trade they had 40% of the starting rotation entering their final year, and the prospects of re-signing either of those guys didn't look too good. Given the cost of replacing one or both of these guys on the FA market, I don't know how this is a "luxury".

But what I really can't figure out is how the Sox OF situation was deeper in 2004 than it is now. :?: At the time of the Garcia trade, Ordonez was already on the DL and had turned down the Sox' best offer. He wasn't coming back and everyone knew it. Rowand was looking like a 4th OF and Borchard was already at the threshold between prospect and bust, struggling mightily in AAA. Anderson and Sweeney had just been drafted the previous year, so at best they were several years away. Besides, promising low minors prospects are a dime a dozen. In total, they had ONE major league starter, Carlos Lee (and I suspect at the time Ozzie was already thinking about getting rid of him) and NOBODY in the high minors that looked ready. How is this deeper than having 2 solid major leaguers, one very good prospect and 2 solid AAA players?

Hangar18
02-10-2006, 11:31 AM
The ST you speak of was last year, and yes it was ridiculous. He was mashing and playing some sick defense the whole time. I sat in the seats in the front row of the RF foul line for a couple of his games, and his pick and throw skills are out of this world. Not only because he chucks the ball hard as anyone I saw, but his transition between the scoop and toss was smooth and effortless, and even with his back turned to the play he put the ball on spot every time. He got on base way too much for any 19 year old getting his first hacks versus major competition, and the ball was screaming off his bat so hard it looked like it was knuckling. After that I have no doubt what kind of player he can be. I find it funny some people doubt what he can do, even after playing through a tough injury while at the same time hitting nearly .300 in a league he was new to and one of the youngest players in.

Not only will he continue mature and emerge as the best of the bunch, he already is doing so. One injury is not a problem as you put it, especially when you play through it and put up those kind of numbers.

This is the kind of stuff I like hearing .................

maurice
02-10-2006, 12:52 PM
I agree that "2006 is the main focus." That's why I can't get too PO'ed about the Young / Vazquez trade. Vazquez probably will help the team in 2006; Young probably wouldn't. Also, in terms of objective value, an established MLB starter (Vazquez in 2006) >>> a good CF prospect (Young in 2006).

I'd never make this trade if I were trying to build a mediocre team into a winner, but everything changes when you're the defending champs.