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Corlose 15
12-17-2005, 08:02 PM
It appears that Contreras is willing to stay more than Garland.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-051216sox,1,5689268.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

gowhitesox
12-17-2005, 08:58 PM
I got the impression that Garland wants out of Chicago, why he would I have no idea after all the Sox are World Champions.

BNLSox
12-17-2005, 09:05 PM
I also got the impression that Garland wants out of Chicago, why he would I have no idea after all the Sox are World Champions. In the world of baseball who knows.

Until last year many booed Garland and called him Judy. Perhaps thats a reason?

Jurr
12-17-2005, 09:48 PM
Until last year many booed Garland and called him Judy. Perhaps thats a reason?
This is Jon Garland trying to take advantage of the market. Good luck with that one, Jon! He will definitely make money based solely on how well he pitched in the first half of last year. Now, he did have a great start against Anaheim in the ALCS. The Houston start wasn't stellar.
The second half was definitely not strong by JG, but he's got enough to offer a lot of clubs that are STARVED for pitching. He doesn't realize that Don Cooper's the new Leo Mazzone. The guy helped Garland, Contreras, Cotts, and Jenks have HUGE breakthroughs, and we'll see what some lesser pitching coach can do for Garland's fragile psyche.

I honestly think the kid's going to have some problems going somewhere else, because he's going to be inundated with the pressure of being a front of the rotation starter. As soon as the pressure was removed from Garland by moving him to the fifth slot, he flourished. When he was depended on late in the season to be a slump buster, he faded, giving way to Contreras.

I like Garland as a back of the rotation guy, but he doesn't deserve the 12 million a year he's probably going to be looking for. Adios, Jon!!!

MHOUSE
12-18-2005, 01:14 AM
Just saw this on rotoworld (http://fantasybaseball.rotoworld.com/content/playernews.asp?sport=MLB) that Contreras is "eager" to sign an extension. I love that Kenny continues to get our starters signed to extensions during the offseason so that free agency and contract talks are never an issue during the season. Plus, it seems that Buehrle, Garcia, and hopefully now Contreras will all be making reasonable salaries because of extensions they've signed. As free agents, these guys would all deserve Burnett-type money, even more IMO because they've proven themselves. There's nothing like have 5 aces on your team while teams like Texas don't even have ONE. It's a good time to be a Sox fan! :gulp:

SoxSpeed22
12-18-2005, 01:36 AM
If Jon goes through the FA process, he will be rich beyond his wildest dreams. And I'm not even exaggerating about that. He already has his ring, so it depends on his loyalty, which won't happen for all players, face it, we were lucky with Konerko. He was not great in the second half, but neither was most of the team. He really took it to LA in their house and he only allowed 2 earned runs against Houston.
Contreras should very well be happy in Chicago, he was allowed to thrive here. Getting his family back was probably the most important thing for him as well as having a diverse clubhouse with lots of good people. None of us know how old he really is, but better late, than never. He instantly became one of my favorite players, and all he had to do was save the team in August and September.:redneck It would be good to keep him for another 3 years.

doublem23
12-18-2005, 01:42 AM
I got the impression that Garland wants out of Chicago, why he would I have no idea after all the Sox are World Champions.

$$$$

He's already got the ring, why not?

StockdaleForVeep
12-18-2005, 02:04 AM
Until last year many booed Garland and called him Judy. Perhaps thats a reason?

And i still do, one season dont mean squat, can anyone remember loaiza

oeo
12-18-2005, 02:18 AM
Until last year many booed Garland and called him Judy. Perhaps thats a reason?
Cry me a river...this is professional baseball, live with it. He pitched for **** for awhile, he gets what he deserves. The Sox stood by him, and if he wants to leave the team that gave him chance after chance, so be it; lets get something for him now.

soxinem1
12-18-2005, 10:20 AM
And i still do, one season dont mean squat, can anyone remember loaiza

Yes, but let's clarify that: not one good season, try three months. The guy could have been at least a solid second in the Cy Young and went down the toilet.

I personally have no great affection for JG, si o if he does not want to stay, send him to KC or Pittsburgh.

But when I watch him, gauge his expressions, see what floats by his eyes, I see one thing.....

I'M GOIN' BACK TO CALI! That's where his heart is.

RedPinStripes
12-18-2005, 11:16 AM
I wouldn't doubt to see Garland get traded before the season starts. From what I understand, Kenny is not going to let a player hold the team back from roster planning. And if KW gets the impression that Jon wants to head home to the west coast, I doubt he'll make it to free agencey.

I still think there's a chance Tejada could come here and guess who would be part of that trade.

kevin57
12-18-2005, 11:47 AM
Wow! There's a lot of emotion surrounding Jon Garland. Even on this thread about Contreras. I guess I don't appreciate the intensity of feeling around this guy. I can certainly appreciate arguments pro/con about his ability to pitch well and whether he deserves big money or not, but he taps into Sox fan psyches more than just about any player...certainly more than any of our other pitchers.

I'm not complaining or criticizing. Just commenting, because JG doesn't push my buttons like that.

caulfield12
12-18-2005, 11:50 AM
I wouldn't doubt to see Garland get traded before the season starts. From what I understand, Kenny is not going to let a player hold the team back from roster planning. And if KW gets the impression that Jon wants to head home to the west coast, I doubt he'll make it to free agencey.

I still think there's a chance Tejada could come here and guess who would be part of that trade.

The other interesting aspect is that we had no choice but to wait on Konerko...but even then, there was the deadline given of the end of the winter meetings, because PK's situation also directly had a bearing on what to do about Frank Thomas.

He ended up paying $5-10 million more than he would have...but this lesson helped him approach this offseason being able to use leverage against a player (Garland and Contreras) instead of them dictating the conditions to him (PK). I don't fault him...the fanbase would probably have been split or even perhaps against giving PK a long-term deal before 2005. After all, it was considered by some to be a bloated deal which was actually holding the White Sox back...in that PK was untradeable for much of that contract due to inconsistent performance and injury rumors.

caulfield12
12-18-2005, 11:51 AM
I wouldn't doubt to see Garland get traded before the season starts. From what I understand, Kenny is not going to let a player hold the team back from roster planning. And if KW gets the impression that Jon wants to head home to the west coast, I doubt he'll make it to free agencey.

I still think there's a chance Tejada could come here and guess who would be part of that trade.

It's either that or Blalock and Mench/Wilkerson. Those are the two best options, with Baltimore obviously being the best trade partner at this time.

RedPinStripes
12-18-2005, 11:51 AM
Wow! There's a lot of emotion surrounding Jon Garland. Even on this thread about Contreras. I guess I don't appreciate the intensity of feeling around this guy. I can certainly appreciate arguments pro/con about his ability to pitch well and whether he deserves big money or not, but he taps into Sox fan psyches more than just about any player...certainly more than any of our other pitchers.

I'm not complaining or criticizing. Just commenting, because JG doesn't push my buttons like that.

I can see why this is strikes a nerve with some fans. Garland wasn't worth a damn a few years ago and the Sox stood by him and made him what he is. When people get the impression that he might leave, it strikes a nerve.

RedPinStripes
12-18-2005, 11:52 AM
It's either that or Blalock and Mench/Wilkerson. Those are the two best options, with Baltimore obviously being the best trade partner at this time.

We should get Mench just so he don't kill us anymore. :D:

caulfield12
12-18-2005, 11:54 AM
We should get Mench just so he don't kill us anymore. :D:

The only problem with Mench is that we already have plenty of outfielders...and he can't play CF. His DH time would be blocked by Thome and Konerko...not to mention Mackowiak will get some AB's here as well.

Which is why Wilkerson makes a lot more sense for us, not that I think it will happen.

TaylorStSox
12-18-2005, 12:52 PM
Sometimes Sox fans make me sick. There's some great fans out there, but some of you guys are just garbage. All the people that called Garland, "Judy," are probably the same knobs that boo'ed Frank.

SoxSpeed22
12-18-2005, 02:01 PM
How Ordonez bacame a pariah here is beyond me, but I'm not gonna panic until Garland is another uniform.
Kinda off-topic, one thing I want to find out, is if there is a certain psyche to every fanbase of every team.

32nd&Wallace
12-18-2005, 02:08 PM
How Ordonez bacame a pariah here is beyond me, but I'm not gonna panic until Garland is another uniform.
Kinda off-topic, one thing I want to find out, is if there is a certain psyche to every fanbase of every team.
Ordonez became a pariah for the way he acted after he signed a $75 million deal with Detroit. What does it tell you about a person who gets that kind of money and badmouths his former employer.

32nd&Wallace
12-18-2005, 02:09 PM
Does anyone know where JC lives during the season. I remember reading when he was traded here that he and his family were looking to buy a house in Chicago.

SoxSpeed22
12-18-2005, 02:39 PM
Ordonez became a pariah for the way he acted after he signed a $75 million deal with Detroit. What does it tell you about a person who gets that kind of money and badmouths his former employer.Good point.

SoxFan76
12-18-2005, 03:04 PM
um, this Garland hating is sort of ridiculous. His 2nd half ERA was below 3.70. His win loss record wasn't too good, but that can be blamed on run support.

With that said, I have no emotional attachment to Jon Garland as a White Sox player. If he stays, fantastic. If he walks, good for him (although I'll lose a lot of respect for him). He ain't the only player who will choose money over winning, and that part really me.

Palehose13
12-18-2005, 03:22 PM
When the Sox traded for Vazquez and the rumor was teh it was goign to be either Garln or Contreras traded, I stated that I thought it was going to be Contreras for personal reasons. I had the feeling that Contreras was more liekly to sign an extension because I guessed that things like loyalty and feeling comfortable were more important to him than Garland. Ok now, Mark Gonzales...are you are lurker or actually a member? :cool:

StockdaleForVeep
12-18-2005, 05:02 PM
Yes, but let's clarify that: not one good season, try three months. The guy could have been at least a solid second in the Cy Young and went down the toilet.

I personally have no great affection for JG, si o if he does not want to stay, send him to KC or Pittsburgh.

But when I watch him, gauge his expressions, see what floats by his eyes, I see one thing.....

I'M GOIN' BACK TO CALI! That's where his heart is.
True but you can also say Gar Gar only had a good 1-2 months of the season, after that he was average. As for name calling, i dont see eric daze of the hawks demandin trades cuz some of us hawk fans call him daisey

TaylorStSox
12-18-2005, 05:14 PM
True but you can also say Gar Gar only had a good 1-2 months of the season, after that he was average. As for name calling, i dont see eric daze of the hawks demandin trades cuz some of us hawk fans call him daisey

Is he asking for a trade? A guy that had 18 wins only had 1-2 good months? That's just stupid. If that's true, then Garcia sucked this year.

Corlose 15
12-18-2005, 08:40 PM
um, this Garland hating is sort of ridiculous. His 2nd half ERA was below 3.70. His win loss record wasn't too good, but that can be blamed on run support.

With that said, I have no emotional attachment to Jon Garland as a White Sox player. If he stays, fantastic. If he walks, good for him (although I'll lose a lot of respect for him). He ain't the only player who will choose money over winning, and that part really me.

I agree, I dont understand why people want to minimize his season so badly. Its not like he folded the second half of the season. Here's his monthly totals

April
4-0 1.80
May
4-2 4.22
June
4-1 3.31
July
3-1 2.56
August
1-4 4.78
Sept/Oct
2-2 3.71

Ditka311
12-19-2005, 02:50 AM
Does anyone know where JC lives during the season. I remember reading when he was traded here that he and his family were looking to buy a house in Chicago.

I believe Tampa.

ShoelessJoeS
12-19-2005, 02:58 AM
We should get Mench just so he don't kill us anymore. :D:
I was at that Texas game. Pierzynski hits a grand slam in the bottom of the first and somehow Duque managed to blow that lead. Gooch then tied it up in the bottom of the eighth with an opposite field homer. The next half inning, Mench comes in an hits a solo 2 rows behind me. I don't know what was more frustrating...the homer, or trying to convince the Sox fan who caught it not to "throw it back."

SCREW MENCH :angry:

StockdaleForVeep
12-19-2005, 04:28 AM
Is he asking for a trade? A guy that had 18 wins only had 1-2 good months? That's just stupid. If that's true, then Garcia sucked this year.

Garcia has proven his stuff, he won 18 games several seasons ago and since then he's always hovered around that level.

5 mediocre seasons of garland and 1 good one, why should he continue to do good. He doesnt have any amazing pitch or style Trade him while he has value

StockdaleForVeep
12-19-2005, 04:29 AM
I agree, I dont understand why people want to minimize his season so badly. Its not like he folded the second half of the season. Here's his monthly totals

April
4-0 1.80
May
4-2 4.22
June
4-1 3.31
July
3-1 2.56
August
1-4 4.78
Sept/Oct
2-2 3.71

I hate more his career than one season, why would you give a literal career 500 pitcher big dollars(ok i lie, he is 4 wins over 500)

LauraJ14
12-19-2005, 10:13 AM
I hate more his career than one season, why would you give a literal career 500 pitcher big dollars(ok i lie, he is 4 wins over 500)


Like no other .500 pitcher gets big over priced contracts, AJ Burnett, Matt Clement, Paul Bryd, I am sure there are more!
Jon Garland has pitched 5 full seasons for the White Sox and has not been on the DL, he has given them innings and this past year, pitched like he was capable of. If he wants to test the market, I don't see why people are getting all over him. He has earned the right to do that just like Kenny WIlliams has the right to trade him whenever he wants to.

Flight #24
12-19-2005, 10:34 AM
I hate more his career than one season, why would you give a literal career 500 pitcher big dollars(ok i lie, he is 4 wins over 500)

BECAUSE HE'S 26 FREAKIN YEARS OLD!!!!!!

There are few, if any starters who are studs at the ages of 24-26. Most are just developing to the point where they're entering the bigs. At the age when most good pitching prospects are just finishing their AAA/AA stints and taking their first season or 2 of lumps in the bigs, Jon was a solid, average MLB starter putting up ~200IP with a reasonable ERA.

The talk equating Garland to a Loaiza-like fluke is ludicrous. Jon Garland was putting up 190+IP with an ERA in the mid-4 at the ages of 22 and 23! Then suddenly, at the age of 25 he puts up a stud year and people act like it's a mirage!

I'm all for trading him if they can get better return than on Contreras and because he'll be tougher to sign. But this is no Loaiza where you're trying to get out before the mirage falls apart. Garland's going to be very good for a while.

soxinem1
12-19-2005, 11:48 AM
Is he asking for a trade? A guy that had 18 wins only had 1-2 good months? That's just stupid. If that's true, then Garcia sucked this year.
Garcia has had much better numbers in his career than Garland. My point is for a guy who had a great two month stretch he does not deserve some 5/50 mill contract. He is not a stud, will never be one.

A stud pitcher is a guy that you see is starting against you and you then say 'Let's try for 2 out of 3' because chances are he will beat you.This is also not to say I wouldn't want Garland on my staff. I love his mechanics more than any pitcher on the team, his bat-busting stuff is great, and when he attacks the hitters he can be real tough.

But sorry, other than Buerhle, no starter on the Sox is worth over 10 million per. None of them.To be fair, and since the thread was about Contreras, they could trade him too if they want. He also had a great 1/2 season, but did it at the right time, and won his share of low scoring games. Garland can make a 5-0 disappear in six minutes.

So bottom line, if neither of them want to commit to staying here, send 'em a packin'!! There are plenty others who will want to take their place.

Flight #24
12-19-2005, 11:57 AM
But sorry, other than Buerhle, no starter on the Sox is worth over 10 million per. None of them.To be fair, and since the thread was about Contreras, they could trade him too if they want. He also had a great 1/2 season, but did it at the right time, and won his share of low scoring games. Garland can make a 5-0 disappear in six minutes.

So bottom line, if neither of them want to commit to staying here, send 'em a packin'!! There are plenty others who will want to take their place.

Are you paying attention to the market? The only guys getting LESS than $10M are absolute chumps, or much older players. Hector Carrasco and Scott Elarton areyour lowest tier, getting around $4M/yr. Paul Byrd/Kenny Rogers-esque guys get $7-8. The going rate for a Garland-like guy given age, etc is at least $10M. Buehrle's going to come in at 10-12. This ain't your father's pitching FA market.

Are any of these guys "worth" it? No, but that's because they pay baseball and make millions of dollars. But that's the going rate, and you won't find anyone better who's cheaper unless you're taking Loaiza-like flyers on guys.

Ol' No. 2
12-19-2005, 03:48 PM
Are you paying attention to the market? The only guys getting LESS than $10M are absolute chumps, or much older players. Hector Carrasco and Scott Elarton areyour lowest tier, getting around $4M/yr. Paul Byrd/Kenny Rogers-esque guys get $7-8. The going rate for a Garland-like guy given age, etc is at least $10M. Buehrle's going to come in at 10-12. This ain't your father's pitching FA market.

Are any of these guys "worth" it? No, but that's because they pay baseball and make millions of dollars. But that's the going rate, and you won't find anyone better who's cheaper unless you're taking Loaiza-like flyers on guys.Been there. Done that. No thanks. Last year was better.

Why are the same people who crabbed for years about the Sox not spending money suddenly upset when they're spending it?:?:

TaylorStSox
12-19-2005, 04:26 PM
BECAUSE HE'S 26 FREAKIN YEARS OLD!!!!!!

There are few, if any starters who are studs at the ages of 24-26. Most are just developing to the point where they're entering the bigs. At the age when most good pitching prospects are just finishing their AAA/AA stints and taking their first season or 2 of lumps in the bigs, Jon was a solid, average MLB starter putting up ~200IP with a reasonable ERA.

The talk equating Garland to a Loaiza-like fluke is ludicrous. Jon Garland was putting up 190+IP with an ERA in the mid-4 at the ages of 22 and 23! Then suddenly, at the age of 25 he puts up a stud year and people act like it's a mirage!

I'm all for trading him if they can get better return than on Contreras and because he'll be tougher to sign. But this is no Loaiza where you're trying to get out before the mirage falls apart. Garland's going to be very good for a while.

Thank you!!! I don't know what people were expecting from a kid that was probably rushed a little. At worst, he's going to give you 200+ innings of 4.00 ERA. In today's market, that's pretty lucrative. He's got the 3rd best stuff on the staff and a rubber arm. IMO, he's the best defensive pitcher on the staff. I'm all for trading him, but to dismiss his accomplishements because you don't like his attitude is juvenile.

TaylorStSox
12-19-2005, 04:31 PM
BTW...

What are people expecting out of BMac? To expect anything better than a .500 record with an ERA in the mid 4's is both unrealistic and unfair IMO. How many 21 year old pitchers dominate for an entire season?

soxinem1
12-19-2005, 05:15 PM
Are you paying attention to the market? The only guys getting LESS than $10M are absolute chumps, or much older players. Hector Carrasco and Scott Elarton areyour lowest tier, getting around $4M/yr. Paul Byrd/Kenny Rogers-esque guys get $7-8. The going rate for a Garland-like guy given age, etc is at least $10M. Buehrle's going to come in at 10-12. This ain't your father's pitching FA market.

Are any of these guys "worth" it? No, but that's because they pay baseball and make millions of dollars. But that's the going rate, and you won't find anyone better who's cheaper unless you're taking Loaiza-like flyers on guys.

My father's FA market wouldn't pay 500K a year! :wink:

I see your point but still cannot rationalize it. This is a game of gambles, as is any sport. But bet on it that if the Sox give Garland 10 mill a year and he bombs, you guys will be the first to say he should have been traded when the Sox had the opportunity. So at this point, I'd actually trade him, if the deal was right.

Carrasco a starter? Wow, that just shows the sad state of the game, that this retread, with what, six career starts, gets a 2yr/6 mill contract from a team known for it's starters.

Didn't anyone learn with Darren Dreifort, Dave Mlicki, Jose Lima, and others what happens when you give a mid-level guy a ton of cash? They bomb!!!

We can also blame Steinbrenner. Much like Garland, Carl Pavano has a career year when he's ready to walk, then cashes in big time. Now he's crying he wants out of NewYork.

Don't even mention Jaret Wright. I'd rather take my chances on Matt Clement than that guy.

We should be more critical of the owners, especially when the A's cry how they have to be so creative, then give Loaiza 3/21 mill. Just crazy.

If there was a way of reestablishing the market I'd be all for it.

fquaye149
12-19-2005, 07:07 PM
Yes, but let's clarify that: not one good season, try three months. The guy could have been at least a solid second in the Cy Young and went down the toilet.

I personally have no great affection for JG, si o if he does not want to stay, send him to KC or Pittsburgh.

But when I watch him, gauge his expressions, see what floats by his eyes, I see one thing.....

I'M GOIN' BACK TO CALI! That's where his heart is.

I call bull****. How many wins did he have blown for him by the bullpen or lack of run support? I really don't feel like doing the research, but I remember him getting a lot of ND's in the months of August and September (remember - he had 16 wins by August)

soxinem1
12-19-2005, 10:08 PM
I call bull****. How many wins did he have blown for him by the bullpen or lack of run support? I really don't feel like doing the research, but I remember him getting a lot of ND's in the months of August and September (remember - he had 16 wins by August)

Hey, don't get me wrong, I don't want KW to give the guy away, but I see nothing that leads anyone to believe that Garland wants to stay here. The guy was nearly on cloud nine a few years ago when he was thisclose to going to Anaheim.

My hunch is that when all is said and done, JG is wearing the uni of a Cali team by 2007!

Ward Hershberger
12-19-2005, 10:46 PM
My concern with JG is that if he pitches in 2006 with an eye toward cashing in on a big FA contract, he may win 22. If that's the case I'd like to have him do it in a Sox uniform - even if we lose him afterwards.

Lip Man 1
12-19-2005, 11:28 PM
From Mark Gonzales' story on A.J. in the Tribune:

"In addition, it's not axiomatic that the Sox and pitcher Jose Contreras will strike an extension soon.

Jaime Torres, Contreras' agent, said Monday he wasn't encouraged by the White Sox's initial offer to keep him past 2006.

"We have to look at today's market," Torres said.

That's cause for concern among the Sox, who have 16 players under contract at about $83 million for 2006 but want to stabilize their rotation for the future in an escalating market.

The Sox will receive about $27 million in compensation from Philadelphia and Arizona in deals involving Jim Thome and Javier Vazquez, but most of that money will be doled out after 2006."

Torres by the way is the agent that had words for Williams in the wake of the Roberto Alomar offer.

Lip

soxinem1
12-20-2005, 12:30 PM
My concern with JG is that if he pitches in 2006 with an eye toward cashing in on a big FA contract, he may win 22. If that's the case I'd like to have him do it in a Sox uniform - even if we lose him afterwards.

Not a bad dilemna to have, I guess, it's a good way of looking at it.