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reinstatejoe
12-17-2005, 10:56 AM
Greetings Sox fans. Congrats on an amazing post season. As a die hard Tribe fan, it's nice to see a team from the central win it all (as long as it isn't the twinkies!). Anyway, I just wanted to find out what kind of support there is on your end for the reinstatement of Shoeless Joe. I live about an hour from his hometown and have recently noticed a groundswell of support in this area regarding this amazing player. I think it's time to really go for it. Maybe banners at the ballpark this coming season and noise on the local sports talk stations might get Selig off of his butt in regard to this issue. Come on, he served his life sentence, let's put him where he belongs! Let me know what you think.

IggyD
12-17-2005, 11:06 AM
Ahh Heck.I say we petition Kenny to get a contract with him....:rolleyes:

IggyD
12-17-2005, 11:08 AM
Actually it is only fair, with all the roid men that are HOF'rs , HR record title holders and such...either take the titles away from them or Give Us JOE:angry:

chitownhawkfan
12-17-2005, 11:15 AM
I would rather see dirtbag Pete Rose in the HOF, at least he never bet AGAINST his team. I hope that Jackson never enters and is always remembered for the son of a bitch that he was.

ndu3t4
12-17-2005, 12:23 PM
Even if he did do what they say he did, he was banned for life. He's dead now, he's paid his debt to baseball. Put him in the hall of fame.

DumpJerry
12-17-2005, 12:29 PM
:welcome:
We'll email Brooks.
Seriously, I suppose there could be a groundswell of support. I think he (and Buck Weaver) deserve it. However, it took many years and many people to get Nellie Fox in the HOF and he was never accused of doing anything wrong. The effort to get Jackson's and Weaver's names cleared may take a lot more energy.

Fredsox
12-17-2005, 12:41 PM
If we need to open that old can of worms at all, I think reinstating Buck Weaver would be first on the list. Jackson DID take the money after all. I'm not certain what we'd accomplish by reinstating him except to make his family feel better about it.

There's another approach to this too: it's ancient history, let it go.

Black Sox
12-17-2005, 12:41 PM
Shoeless Joe has my full support. The ban should be lifted. Bud Selig is a useless commissioner and will probably never even attempt to rectify the situation in regards to the Black Sox scandal.

williefan22
12-17-2005, 12:43 PM
I would rather see dirtbag Pete Rose in the HOF, at least he never bet AGAINST his team. I hope that Jackson never enters and is always remembered for the son of a bitch that he was.

Yes he never bet against his team but he still bet. He broke a rule, its not hard, he knew it was illegal to bet on baseball but he still did it.

richb2
12-17-2005, 12:49 PM
nope-he should not be in the Hall of Fame----he bet against his team and took money, he knew what was going on.

chitownhawkfan
12-17-2005, 01:25 PM
Yes he never bet against his team but he still bet. He broke a rule, its not hard, he knew it was illegal to bet on baseball but he still did it.

I dont want Pete Rose in the HOF either, I think they are both douchebags however, I think Shoeless Joe is a bigger douche for taking the money to throw a game.

I know he played for the Sox but what should Bud Selig do? Joe Jackson and his cohorts denied the White Sox a championship banner, and for that I dont think any of us should forgive him. I think these efforts are just absurd, he was a greedy liar and for that he should pay eternally.:angry:

CluelessJoe1919
12-17-2005, 01:28 PM
Shoeless Joe has my total support, which is why I made this name here....He was clueless during the Series scandal.

voodoochile
12-17-2005, 01:32 PM
Shoeless Joe has my total support, which is why I made this name here....He was clueless during the Series scandal.

Bull****! He is one of the guys who actually took money even if he did try to give it back. How can you claim someone who took a bribe to throw a sporting event was clueless that the event was being fixed is beyond me.

I agree. Ancient history, let it go...

TaylorStSox
12-17-2005, 01:59 PM
:welcome:
We'll email Brooks.
Seriously, I suppose there could be a groundswell of support. I think he (and Buck Weaver) deserve it. However, it took many years and many people to get Nellie Fox in the HOF and he was never accused of doing anything wrong. The effort to get Jackson's and Weaver's names cleared may take a lot more energy.

Buck Weaver - Yes
Joe Jackson - Not a chance in the world.

ShoelessJoeS
12-17-2005, 02:09 PM
Great thread!!! Shoeless Joe did take money from the gamblers, however, he did ask to be benched for the entire Series and was denied (obviously). He also hit .375, had a World Series record 12 hits including the Series only home run. This doesn't sound like someone who tries to purposely lose. The fact is though, he took the money and was in on a "conspiracy." Actually, I just wrote a 10-page research paper on the 1919 Sox and was thinking about posting it.

voodoochile
12-17-2005, 02:14 PM
Great thread!!! Shoeless Joe did take money from the gamblers, however, he did ask to be benched for the entire Series and was denied (obviously). He also hit .375, had a World Series record 12 hits including the Series only home run. This doesn't sound like someone who tries to purposely lose. The fact is though, he took the money and was in on a "conspiracy." Actually, I just wrote a 10-page research paper on the 1919 Sox and was thinking about posting it.

Don't post it, submit it to PaleHoseGeorge for possible publication on the home page. No guarantees, but the site is always looking for articles.

I do propose that asking to be benched is a simple way of throwing the series. If every starter on the 1919 Sox had asked to do it and been allowed, it would have accomplished the goal. Seeing as Joe was a major contributor and team leader for the team, it certainly wouldn't have helped the Sox win for him to ride the bench. Just food for thought...

Fenway
12-17-2005, 02:26 PM
Buck Weaver - Yes
Joe Jackson - Not a chance in the world.

Not as long as Jerome Holtzman is Selig's official historian.

Now if you can get Holtzman to look into it again...then maybe.

illinibk
12-17-2005, 02:27 PM
I don't think he should be re-instated. But rather than restating my thoughts, they can be found in this thread from last year (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=34787&highlight=shoeless+joe).

ShoelessJoeS
12-17-2005, 03:22 PM
Don't post it, submit it to PaleHoseGeorge for possible publication on the home page. No guarantees, but the site is always looking for articles.

I do propose that asking to be benched is a simple way of throwing the series. If every starter on the 1919 Sox had asked to do it and been allowed, it would have accomplished the goal. Seeing as Joe was a major contributor and team leader for the team, it certainly wouldn't have helped the Sox win for him to ride the bench. Just food for thought...
I think you may have misinterpreted what I was trying to say. The reason why he wanted to be benched was to avoid throwing the Series as I'm sure he knew the consequences. Just reiterating the point I tried to make :D:

gowhitesox
12-17-2005, 03:41 PM
Even if he did do what they say he did, he was banned for life. He's dead now, he's paid his debt to baseball. Put him in the hall of fame.

I agree with you. Shoeless Joe Jackson was given a lifetime ban along with the 7 others. Shoeless Joe's lifetime is over, he is dead now so the ban should be lifted. Even if he was guilty I am sure he regreted it. Reinstate Shoeless Joe Jackson and induct him into the Hall of Fame.

As for Pete Rose. I always thought he should be reinstated and inducted into the Hall of Fame. That was until Pete Rose admitted he lied to begin with, so my opinion on that changed he should remain banned for life.

Reinstate Shoeless Joe!!

voodoochile
12-17-2005, 03:43 PM
I think you may have misinterpreted what I was trying to say. The reason why he wanted to be benched was to avoid throwing the Series as I'm sure he knew the consequences. Just reiterating the point I tried to make :D:

Oh sure, but if the "nice" way of doing something accomplishes the same thing as the "bad" way of doing something and they both have negative consequences, what's the difference? :?:

That was all I was trying to point out. Throw it while playing or throw it by not playing, you still threw it or helped contribute to it being thrown...

TDog
12-17-2005, 03:45 PM
The unfortunate aspect about support for Joe Jackson, who many people will never support for legitimate reasons, is what it makes it more difficult for George Davis Weaver to be reinstated, officially getting his name cleared.

I don't know that Buck Weaver belongs in the Hall of Fame, but he was a victim in 1919. He shouldn't have been banished from baseball from baseball in the first place.

The commissioner wasn't interested in justice. He was interested in order, even when order was injustice, as he demonstrated by ejecting Joe Medwick from a World Series game because the visiting crowd was disruption the game with their reaction to his presence.

ShoelessJoeS
12-17-2005, 03:56 PM
Oh sure, but if the "nice" way of doing something accomplishes the same thing as the "bad" way of doing something and they both have negative consequences, what's the difference? :?:

That was all I was trying to point out. Throw it while playing or throw it by not playing, you still threw it or helped contribute to it being thrown...
I see what your saying. That is why Comiskey made him play, he wanted to win. Can't blame the guy. I do comend Jackson, however, for at least trying not to take part in the fix by trying to sit out. The fact is, though, that Landis banned anybody who knew of the fix, regardless of their on-field performance, which doesn't make sense to me because what if they actually tried to win those games????

IggyD
12-17-2005, 04:02 PM
If we need to open that old can of worms at all, I think reinstating Buck Weaver would be first on the list. Jackson DID take the money after all. I'm not certain what we'd accomplish by reinstating him except to make his family feel better about it.

I agree, Buck never admitted to it nor did they have any proof. But Joe and a few others did Admit guilt.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-17-2005, 04:03 PM
Actually it is only fair, with all the roid men that are HOF'rs , HR record title holders and such...either take the titles away from them or Give Us JOE:angry:

What "roid men" are in the Hall of Fame? There are none. I think those suspected and or those testing positive (Bonds, McGwire, Palmeiro and Sosa) will have a much tougher time after the events / scandals of the past few years.

Bonds would have made the hall regardless and now he will have a black mark. Palmeiro and Sosa may not make it in period. If McGwire makes it he will also have a tarnished image for generations.

Unfortunately, the inflated stats hurt the honest players of the era - Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell - when comparing the stats but I hope by the time they reach the ballot they will be given credit for playing clean and producing at the level they achieved.

ShoelessJoeS
12-17-2005, 04:10 PM
I agree, Buck never admitted to it nor did they have any proof. But Joe and a few others did Admit guilt.
Cicotte and Williams are said to have signed confessions along with Joe. However, these alleged documents were apparently stolen before they could be admitted into the court case. My question is, was Joe forced into signing a confession? The man could neither read nor write, and was said to be drunk while at the court to sign his confession.

TornLabrum
12-17-2005, 04:20 PM
I agree, Buck never admitted to it nor did they have any proof. But Joe and a few others did Admit guilt.

Let's go over this again. (The last time we did was about a month ago.

Jackson was advised by Albert Austrian, who misrepresented himself as trying to help Jackson out when, in fact, he was Comiskey's lawyer, to confess. That's why, when you read Jackson's confession, it is so inconsistent.

Other than before the grand jury, Jackson never admitted throwing any games (by that time the players had their own attorney). Ed Cicotte stated that Jackson wasn't involved in the fix. In fact Jackson tried to give it back to Cicotte, but Cicotte wouldn't take it. (I believe there was something about him throwing the cash on the bed.)

Jackson's next move was to go to Comiskey's office to give the cash to him, but he never made it past Harry Grabiner. Grabiner told him to go home, that they knew what he was there for, and they didn't care to see him.

mccombe_35
12-17-2005, 04:47 PM
ummmm... I consider myself a huge white sox fan, but why would Buck Weaver ever even be considered for the Hall? was he going to turn into Babe Ruth after he turned 31?????

ShoelessJoeS
12-17-2005, 04:51 PM
ummmm... I consider myself a huge white sox fan, but why would Buck Weaver ever even be considered for the Hall? was he going to turn into Babe Ruth after he turned 31?????
It's more of repairing injustice than Hall consideration.

mccombe_35
12-17-2005, 05:11 PM
It's more of repairing injustice than Hall consideration.

ok, gotcha.

TornLabrum
12-17-2005, 05:16 PM
Another thing I'd like to clarify (again) is that the Black Sox, et al. did not receive a "lifetime ban." Their status is "parmanently ineligible." Permanent means just that, not "lifetime."

I_Liked_Manuel
12-17-2005, 05:18 PM
divorce shoeless joe, the man who took money to throw a world series, from shoeless joe, the character from Field of Dreams.

now consider the question.

Corlose 15
12-17-2005, 07:46 PM
The only member of the eight that I feel sorry for and think should be reinstated is Buck Weaver. He never took any many, had an excellent series and his only crime was to not snitch on his friends. Thats basically a cultural problem there.

Another thing that bothers me about Landis is he never even bothered with an investigation, he just immediately banned all 8 players indicted.


Also, before this postseason did anyone else get depressed whenever they watched "Eight Men Out"?

HotelWhiteSox
12-17-2005, 08:15 PM
I would rather see dirtbag Pete Rose in the HOF, at least he never bet AGAINST his team. I hope that Jackson never enters and is always remembered for the son of a bitch that he was.

Sit this play out champ. The guys who do this stuff or steroids and things of that nature are breaking the rules of the game and (some) get punished for it, but I think people go a little on the extreme with their personal feelings on those people. In the grand scope of things they were helping their own self interests while playing in a team game in which everyone looks out for themselves and looks for every advantage possible, all knowing of their consequences and many getting caught. There's a lot more type of scum in this world (rapists, murderers, etc) who deserve this hatred. I understand being mad because they ruin the integrity of the game, but I don't get how some people would rather spit on Jason Giambi than the crack dealer down the street. Steroids or gambling, yeah it's illegal, just like how 80%+ of my high school would smoke grass every weekend. (This isn't really directed at chitownhawkfan, but just something I've always thought about when people put so much energy in the hatred of someone who cheats in sports)

A. Cavatica
12-17-2005, 08:58 PM
Shoeless Joe Crede? Let's wait until he's traded for Blalock before beginning any reinstatement campaign.

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-17-2005, 09:12 PM
If anyone from the 1919 Black Sox deserves to be reinstated its Buck Weaver.

Railsplitter
12-17-2005, 10:59 PM
I'm not as enthusiastic about reinstating Jackson as I used to be. Sure, he the only homer of the Series, but it was in Game 8 and thus made the final score. Also, how many of the other 11 hits drove in runs? That average is less impressive if they came with the bases empty.

SOX ADDICT '73
12-17-2005, 11:19 PM
Take these same circumstances...a beloved hero from a bygone era, with mind-blowing stats and an endearing nickname; a group of players who were severely underpaid by league standards, and were tired of getting taken advantage of by a bastard owner; eight of those players naively getting mixed up in a plot to throw the Series, some of whom likely intended to double-cross the gamblers (taking the money and then winning anyway); a third baseman with knowledge of the plot, but who took no money and played his ass off, torn between loyalty for his teammates and the integrity of the game...

...Yes, take all these same circumstances...and imagine it's the New York Yankees we're talking about. Still considering reinstatement?

For many of us, our hearts say "Forgive Joe - he was taken advantage of!" and "Exonerate Buck - he didn't do anything wrong!" because of our love for the Sox, loyalty to one (or two) of our greatest players, and a desire to make the stain of 1919 fade a little. But think of the nationwide uproar this would create if the powers-that-be even consider reinstating these known conspirators.

What if Bud Selig finally grows a pair and says that any player who has tested positive for performance-enhancers forfeits their eligibility for the HOF, meaning that Palmeiro, Giambi, and eventually McGwire, Bonds and Sosa are all out. Then, a few decades later, under the pressure of Flubs fans who have romanticized Sosa's tenure in this city, some milquetoast new commissioner decides to lift the ban. What's your position going to be?

dugwood31
12-17-2005, 11:51 PM
Shoeless Joe took money for our beloved White Sox to lose the series. Why would we champion his cause?

Our cause should be to get Charles Comiskey booted from the HOF. Not ony was he aware of the situation in 1919 (Buck Weaver?), but he was a cheap, racist jerk.

Al Franken
12-18-2005, 04:16 AM
Bull****! He is one of the guys who actually took money even if he did try to give it back. How can you claim someone who took a bribe to throw a sporting event was clueless that the event was being fixed is beyond me.

I agree. Ancient history, let it go...
Shoeless Joe had no idea what he was getting in to.
The guy could barely read or write.

Fredsox
12-18-2005, 06:37 AM
, but I don't get how some people would rather spit on Jason Giambi than the crack dealer down the street. Steroids or gambling, yeah it's illegal, just like how 80%+ of my high school would smoke grass every weekend. (This isn't really directed at chitownhawkfan, but just something I've always thought about when people put so much energy in the hatred of someone who cheats in sports)

I guess the reason why people get mad at professional sports cheaters is because they've been given a special gift, the ability to compete athletically at a level that you and I can only admire, and they abuse it. I don't compare them to crack dealers or any other violent criminals, but I DO compare them to thieves. Athletes who cheat are stealing money from the owners, the fans, and the media. They should pay the same penalty as any embezzler. If I steal $50,000 from my employer should I go to jail? If I steal $100000 from a retired person in a fraud scheme have I not earned not only prison time but the scorn of humanity?

Finally, professional sports is about excellence. The challenge of sports is that you must achieve this excellence within a set of rules. Many people look to professional sports for examples of this excellence as part of the way they model their lives, and so they need to be able to believe that what they are seeing is real. If they can't believe it, it's just professional wrestling.

TornLabrum
12-18-2005, 09:29 AM
Shoeless Joe had no idea what he was getting in to.
The guy could barely read or write.

I know you're banned, but this is the one pro-Jackson argument that really gets on my nerves. Jackson may have been illeterate, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was stupid. He grew up in poverty in a mill town and went to work instead of school. He was smart enough to successfully run a dry cleaning business and a liquor store at various times in his life.

The "let's forgive him because he was illiterate" crowd completely miss the point. The point is that there is absolutely no evidence other than a confession coerced by COMISKEY'S LAWYER misrepresenting himself as having Jackson's best interest at heart. The confession is self contradictory. Some say that's because he was trying to deflect the guilt from himself. A more likely scenario in my mind is that the admission of guilt was parroting what Austrian told him to say while the contradictory parts are closer to the truth.

It is very convenient how people neglect to note that he tried to give the "money the took" (which was really thrown at him by Cicotte) to Comiskey immediately after he received it, and Grabiner brushed him off. Why would a guilty man try to give the money to his boss?

soxinem1
12-18-2005, 10:04 AM
I agree with most of the posts here. Rose, Jackson, Cicotte, etc. all belong where they are at, looking in.

Question: If it wasn't for Jackson playing for the Sox, (what if he did this as a Red or, gulp, flubs)would you be in favor of his reinstatement?

Either way, sorry, NO DICE!

voodoochile
12-18-2005, 01:09 PM
I guess the reason why people get mad at professional sports cheaters is because they've been given a special gift, the ability to compete athletically at a level that you and I can only admire, and they abuse it. I don't compare them to crack dealers or any other violent criminals, but I DO compare them to thieves. Athletes who cheat are stealing money from the owners, the fans, and the media. They should pay the same penalty as any embezzler. If I steal $50,000 from my employer should I go to jail? If I steal $100000 from a retired person in a fraud scheme have I not earned not only prison time but the scorn of humanity?

Finally, professional sports is about excellence. The challenge of sports is that you must achieve this excellence within a set of rules. Many people look to professional sports for examples of this excellence as part of the way they model their lives, and so they need to be able to believe that what they are seeing is real. If they can't believe it, it's just professional wrestling.

It's more than just throwing away a gift of great talent, it's the fact that they steal from us personally. I mean if some faceless guy steals some money from some other faceless guy 1000's of miles away from where we live, how does it impact our personal life?

Now if our favorite team (and I think we all agree that can be a bit of a rabid obsessession at times :tongue: ) has a player cheat to lose or cheat to win it costs us personally. We invested time, energy, passion and money in that team and those events. Then we find out we were cheated and it hurts. It eats away at our heart and at the fond memories we have. Were they just a lie? Was it all for nothing? What about all that time I spent watching that team?

It isn't hard to go from there to "What an *******!" The waste of talent only adds to the issue, but there's a good chunk of self pity involved in the whole desire to run the cheaters out of town on a rail.

I completely agree that people want clean sports competition for the most part. I am sure there are some freaks who want to see roided up super sluggers and spit balls and corked bats and what the heck, let's allow robots to bat 3rd on every team just to bulk up the scoring, but for most people it is indeed about watching naturally gifted people striving their best to win. There is something truly amazing watching a supreme athlete doing that which most of us can only dream about doing. To find out later they weren't actually doing that makes it hard to think of them as anything but lazy slugs and cheats. No one loves a lazy cheat...

The Racehorse
12-18-2005, 01:54 PM
All eight Black Sox should be reinstated. That pillar of judicious equity named Kenesaw Mountain Landis got his way... they no longer earned one red cent after their ban.

The players have been dead a long time... not pardoning them at this point is nothing more than vindictiveness to the extreme...

... and yes, Joe Jackson deserves to be in the HOF.

TheKittle
12-18-2005, 03:09 PM
Shoeless Joe had no idea what he was getting in to.
The guy could barely read or write.

Yeah I guess somebody like Jacque LeMare (sp) had no idea what he was doing when he won a Stanley Cup for Montreal, since he couldn't read and write either.