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View Full Version : KW...payroll will settle in the $90 million range


caulfield12
12-15-2005, 07:59 AM
Someone can link this, but there are a couple of good articles at dailyherald.com

Insights gleaned today...
Bajenaru and Tracey the best candidates internally for pen, although KW will add one or two from outside the organization, likely using Gload, Harris and Perez as bait

White Sox are pissed with Garland and he is definitely the one to be dealt

Sox pretty close to an extension with Contreras

White Sox looking to pick up two top pitching prospects to replace Gio and Haigwood for Garland...most intriguing prospect is Crede-Garland for Blaylock and a prospect

Could also see Crede, Uribe, Garland and outfield prospect for Michael Young and Blalock...although Texas would be crazy to deal Young IMO

Deal reported to be Arizona giving us $4-5 million to supplement Vazquez....almost the full amount NY Yankees gave them

Vazquez will be signed through 2008, because he will not be able to leave but will have to take arbitration after 2007 since he was part of a mid-contract trade and exercised his rights to a trade

Payroll a little misleading now because of the money for Contreras, Vazquez and Thome, so don´t get bent out of shape

Tejada deal looks less and less likely with each minute...most likely Baltimore move is Garland for two pitching prospects to make Tejada happier

soxfan26
12-15-2005, 08:10 AM
White Sox are pissed with Garland and he is definitely the one to be dealt

I don't see any reason to be pissed at JG, aren't players expected to acknowledge the business side of things and not take trades personally?

Sox pretty close to an extension with Contreras
:D:

White Sox looking to pick up two top pitching prospects to replace Gio and Haigwood for Garland...most intriguing prospect is Crede-Garland for Blaylock and a prospect
Blaylock = yuck. Make this trade Garland & Uribe for Young and the prospects and I'll take it... the Sox would have an outstanding 3-4-5.

veeter
12-15-2005, 08:54 AM
Noone would take Garland unless they know they can sign him long term. And if not for the Sox, I guarantee Jon wants to play in California somewhere. Hopefully he caves and signs with the Sox.

ilsox7
12-15-2005, 09:11 AM
Noone would take Garland unless they know they can sign him long term. And if not for the Sox, I guarantee Jon wants to play in California somewhere. Hopefully he caves and signs with the Sox.

I think Garland will go to the highest bidder, and that is why KW is somewhat pissed at him.

MsSoxVixen22
12-15-2005, 09:16 AM
I think Garland will go to the highest bidder, and that is why KW is somewhat pissed at him.


Wow...didn't think JG was like that....I guess I can't blame him for wanting to go where there's more $$$ but still...:(:

caulfield12
12-15-2005, 09:17 AM
Noone would take Garland unless they know they can sign him long term. And if not for the Sox, I guarantee Jon wants to play in California somewhere. Hopefully he caves and signs with the Sox.

There have been 2-3 reports now the White Sox are nearing an extension with Contreras and that he is receptive to the idea.

All signs point to him asking for AT LEAST the $55 million, five year deal that Burnett received from the Jays. That will never fly with KW or Reinsdorf. So adios, and don´t let the door hit you on the way out.

Garland looks to be a good fit in Arizona, San Diego, Dodgers, SF...I just don´t want to see him go to the Angels, because they look to be our biggest competition for next season, and their bullpen got a little bit stronger with the addition of Romero. They lost Byrd and Washburn, though. Santana looks strong, but I can´t really say they´ve improved to the extent the White Sox have. They really need a healthy Vladimir Guerrero.

ilsox7
12-15-2005, 09:18 AM
Wow...didn't think JG was like that....I guess I can't blame him for wanting to go where there's more $$$ but still...:(:

Who really knows, but it seems like the Sox are somewhat pissed that they stuck by him for the last few years and then when he has his break-out season he won't consider what the Sox have done for him.

I don't blame JG or KW, if this is the case. But I think KW might view it as a lack of respect towards to organization. But who knows b/c none of us know these guys at all. Can only go on what is reported.

LauraJ14
12-15-2005, 09:21 AM
I don't understand the White Sox, they don't want to offer Konerko a deal before the 2005 season and then expect him to negoiate with them after the season. They offer Garland a 3 year deal and he doesn't want to take it and they are pissed at him? Why can't he test the free agent market like Konerko did? Too much male ego's involved here for me.
Why should Garland accept a lower offer just because the White Sox offered it to him?
I am tired of the White Sox not wanting to pay for their own players but lets trade for Yankee castoffs and pay them ( Vazquez, Contreras etc.)

MsSoxVixen22
12-15-2005, 09:23 AM
Who really knows, but it seems like the Sox are somewhat pissed that they stuck by him for the last few years and then when he has his break-out season he won't consider what the Sox have done for him.

I don't blame JG or KW, if this is the case. But I think KW might view it as a lack of respect towards to organization. But who knows b/c none of us know these guys at all. Can only go on what is reported.


Yeah I agree with you. I don't blame KW for being pissed and I could see WHY he's pissed. I'd be miffed too if I stuck with someone and helped mold them into the player they are today, and they wanna leave. I won't be surprised if JG leaves. We'll have to wait and see.

Unregistered
12-15-2005, 09:28 AM
I don't understand the White Sox, they don't want to offer Konerko a deal before the 2005 season and then expect him to negoiate with them after the season. They offer Garland a 3 year deal and he doesn't want to take it and they are pissed at him? Why can't he test the free agent market like Konerko did? Too much male ego's involved here for me.
Why should Garland accept a lower offer just because the White Sox offered it to him?
I am tired of the White Sox not wanting to pay for their own players but lets trade for Yankee castoffs and pay them ( Vazquez, Contreras etc.)Probably because, as was said before, the Sox nurtured Garland when he was a weak-minded, raw pitcher (more so than other young pitchers) who they could'nt have traded for a bag of balls at some points, and now it looks like he's going to take the first opportunity to leave without even thinking about it...

ilsox7
12-15-2005, 09:32 AM
I don't understand the White Sox, they don't want to offer Konerko a deal before the 2005 season and then expect him to negoiate with them after the season. They offer Garland a 3 year deal and he doesn't want to take it and they are pissed at him? Why can't he test the free agent market like Konerko did? Too much male ego's involved here for me.
Why should Garland accept a lower offer just because the White Sox offered it to him?
I am tired of the White Sox not wanting to pay for their own players but lets trade for Yankee castoffs and pay them ( Vazquez, Contreras etc.)

I think it's a smart stance to take with Garland. He is gonna get 5 years and 50 million from someone, and there is no way it will be the Sox. Now that we have another quality arm, go ahead and trade him. I just hope we get more than prospects back. Ideally, we need to trade him to a team willing to give him his big pay day NOW. That way they can negotiate it as a part of the trade and we won't have to take a discount in value back b/c he will be a FA after 2006.

samram
12-15-2005, 09:41 AM
I don't understand the White Sox, they don't want to offer Konerko a deal before the 2005 season and then expect him to negoiate with them after the season. They offer Garland a 3 year deal and he doesn't want to take it and they are pissed at him? Why can't he test the free agent market like Konerko did? Too much male ego's involved here for me.
Why should Garland accept a lower offer just because the White Sox offered it to him?
I am tired of the White Sox not wanting to pay for their own players but lets trade for Yankee castoffs and pay them ( Vazquez, Contreras etc.)


Link to article. (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sportsstory.asp?id=132181)

Yeah, stupid White Sox, with their World Series winning strategies. Let's face it- the Sox aren't too kean about paying Garland $12 million a year (based on Burnett's ridiculous deal). Therefore, if they can get Contreras back at a reasonable price (the article, by the way, does not say the sides are close, only that JC is willing to talk), they'll have five good starters through 2007 and there could perhaps be a market correction at that time (if there isn't a work stoppage) that would allow them to resign Buehrle and/or Garcia at levels more acceptable to them. Furthermore, if they can trade Garland for pitching prospects, that just provides more insurance if one of Buehrle or Garcia walks.

veeter
12-15-2005, 09:41 AM
I think Garland will go to the highest bidder, and that is why KW is somewhat pissed at him.What I meant was, in a trade right now. Let's say Baltimore. They would never 'rent' Jon for one year. I say the Sox keep Garland for the year and let him walk. I think we can repeat.

Frater Perdurabo
12-15-2005, 09:45 AM
White Sox looking to pick up two top pitching prospects to replace Gio and Haigwood for Garland...most intriguing prospect is Crede-Garland for Blaylock and a prospect

Could also see Crede, Uribe, Garland and outfield prospect for Michael Young and Blalock...although Texas would be crazy to deal Young IMO

I don't like the first deal but do like the second. While I want Jon Garland on the Sox, getting Michael Young would be tremendous. He's a fantastic defensive shortstop with a strong arm, turns the double play very well, is a genuine good guy and great teammate willing to change positions to help his team, is a smart baserunner, won a batting title and is developing more home run power.

Blalock is an enigma. He's streaky like Konerko has been. He could develop into a fantastic lefty hitter if he finds a way to hit lefties and hit better on the road, or he could plateau where he is now. Depending on how he continues to develop, Blalock could be better than Robin Ventura in his prime or he could be worse than a slumping Joe Crede. He's also hit ridiculously better in Arlington than on the road.

Texas covets pitching of any kind and as a ground ball pitcher, Jon Garland would be the ace of the Texas staff. They might overpay to get him.

caulfield12
12-15-2005, 09:47 AM
What I meant was, in a trade right now. Let's say Baltimore. They would never 'rent' Jon for one year. I say the Sox keep Garland for the year and let him walk. I think we can repeat.

The problem with this strategy is that it´s not workable...McCarthy deserves to start. And yeah, the WBC could cause some problems...but nobody in baseball has our six starters. We might have passed the Braves...not in terms of developing pitchers in the minors....but craftily stealing them from other organizations.

Baltimore would offer him a deal that Jon and Landis like in the Burnett neighborhood and we get the equivalent of Haigwood and Gio back (Hayden Penn and one other pitcher).

By the way, it wasn´t the Daily Herald but the SunTimes, Trib or Daily Southtown that was reporting that Contreras and KW are nearing a deal on an extension.

caulfield12
12-15-2005, 09:52 AM
I don't like the first deal but do like the second. While I want Jon Garland on the Sox, getting Michael Young would be tremendous. He's a fantastic defensive shortstop with a strong arm, turns the double play very well, is a genuine good guy and great teammate willing to change positions to help his team, is a smart baserunner, won a batting title and is developing more home run power.

Blalock is an enigma. He's streaky like Konerko has been. He could develop into a fantastic lefty hitter if he finds a way to hit lefties and hit better on the road, or he could plateau where he is now. Depending on how he continues to develop, Blalock could be better than Robin Ventura in his prime or he could be worse than a slumping Joe Crede. He's also hit ridiculously better in Arlington than on the road.

Texas covets pitching of any kind and as a ground ball pitcher, Jon Garland would be the ace of the Texas staff. They might overpay to get him.


It´s an interesting situation. Joe Crede is in the Aaron Rowand category right now....sell high, buy low. Of course, he could get even better and more consistent offensively, but I would imagine KW feels there´s about a 10% chance of keeping Crede after 2007.

Young is obviously a much more polished and accomplished player, but I think the Rangers feel the same way about him as the Orioles feel about Tejada.

I think a Blalock-Wilkerson and top pitching prospect for Garland-Crede makes the most sense for both sides. Not Joaquin Benoit, who is like 28. I doubt we could get Young from their rotation...but maybe the prospect who´s floated from LA to Cleveland and now to Texas over the last couple of seasons...he´s a Hispanic pitcher, just can´t remember his name.

veeter
12-15-2005, 09:55 AM
The problem with this strategy is that it´s not workable...McCarthy deserves to start. And yeah, the WBC could cause some problems...but nobody in baseball has our six starters. We might have passed the Braves...not in terms of developing pitchers in the minors....but craftily stealing them from other organizations.

Baltimore would offer him a deal that Jon and Landis like in the Burnett neighborhood and we get the equivalent of Haigwood and Gio back (Hayden Penn and one other pitcher).

By the way, it wasn´t the Daily Herald but the SunTimes, Trib or Daily Southtown that was reporting that Contreras and KW are nearing a deal on an extension.You're right, I think it's crazy to think all six will be here come spring training. Hey, if Baltimore puts something together Jon would accept, then great. I just don't see him going there. However, money seems to be on Jon's mind. I'm of the belief that last year was no fluke. I think Jon will be a consistent 15 game winner for a long time. He's got a rubber arm and is a closet competitor. Back in the day, he'd spend his whole career with the Sox.

samram
12-15-2005, 10:07 AM
Here are the quotes about Contreras possibly resigning:

Southtown (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/151sd6.htm):

A source said the "climate was right to get a deal done past (next) year" with Contreras.

Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/cst-spt-sox15.html):

Neither has given any indication he is ready to re-sign with the Sox.

Tribune (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-051214sox,1,5164978.story?coll=cs-home-headlines):

Based on encouraging discussions the Sox have had with Contreras and his agent, an extension appears more realistic than a multiyear deal with Garland.

I read those as saying they're playing nice, but they're not necessarily close. That said, they'll probably announce an extension today.:smile:

caulfield12
12-15-2005, 10:10 AM
Here are the quotes about Contreras possibly resigning:

Southtown (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/151sd6.htm):



Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/cst-spt-sox15.html):



Tribune (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-051214sox,1,5164978.story?coll=cs-home-headlines):



I read those as saying they're playing nice, but they're not necessarily close. That said, they'll probably announce an extension today.:smile:

Well, whatever is going on, KW is definitely favoring Contreras and seems to already be saying goodbye to JG if he is unwilling to sign a ¨reasonable¨ extension.

ilsox7
12-15-2005, 10:12 AM
Well, whatever is going on, KW is definitely favoring Contreras and seems to already be saying goodbye to JG if he is unwilling to sign a ¨reasonable¨ extension.

The other thing to remember is that Jose has already had one huge pay day, at $32MM. If he signs a 3/27 type deal, that is two nice pay days for him. Jon is essentially looking to cash in once for around $50MM. The Sox would actually be doing him a favor by trying to ship him to another team NOW and allowing him to get his payday before this season even starts. That way, he'd lose any chance of killing his value this year.

Steelrod
12-15-2005, 10:13 AM
Hey, raise my tickets $5.00 and get me Tejada!
Not that it matters, but there's a lot of quality pitchers in next season's free agent class. If Garland stumbles this year, there may be a surprise in store for him!

caulfield12
12-15-2005, 10:21 AM
Hey, raise my tickets $5.00 and get me Tejada!
Not that it matters, but there's a lot of quality pitchers in next season's free agent class. If Garland stumbles this year, there may be a surprise in store for him!

I forgot to mention the Borchard for 4th outfielder rumors are alive and well again today, lol.

With seven players already off the roster...adding Timo, Willie and probably JG now, that´s a 40% turnover of a World Series champion in one offseason. WOW! Still interested to see what becomes of CF, LH relief and Joe Crede, if anything.

That would leave AJ as the only one to negotiate with if Crede is traded...and both sides definitely want to get something long-term done there. It´s a good fit from all perspectives IMO. And we have absolutely no catching prospects even close to the majors.

MillerSoxFan
12-15-2005, 10:29 AM
I don't understand the White Sox, they don't want to offer Konerko a deal before the 2005 season and then expect him to negoiate with them after the season. They offer Garland a 3 year deal and he doesn't want to take it and they are pissed at him? Why can't he test the free agent market like Konerko did? Too much male ego's involved here for me.
Why should Garland accept a lower offer just because the White Sox offered it to him?
I am tired of the White Sox not wanting to pay for their own players but lets trade for Yankee castoffs and pay them ( Vazquez, Contreras etc.)

I agree - why does Garland owe the Sox anything more than Konerko did? It's not like they didn't try to trade him before - remember the failed trade for Erstad?
I am getting nervous with this latest trade. I think it is a mistake to make too many changes to a team that just won it all, supposedly helped by great team chemistry and a lack of selfish players.

Mickster
12-15-2005, 10:29 AM
I don't understand the White Sox, they don't want to offer Konerko a deal before the 2005 season and then expect him to negoiate with them after the season. They offer Garland a 3 year deal and he doesn't want to take it and they are pissed at him? Why can't he test the free agent market like Konerko did? Too much male ego's involved here for me.
Why should Garland accept a lower offer just because the White Sox offered it to him?
I am tired of the White Sox not wanting to pay for their own players but lets trade for Yankee castoffs and pay them ( Vazquez, Contreras etc.)

I understand their [thre Sox] position completely. They didn't offer Konerko a contract last year and got stuck paying way more than they could have if they signed him prior to the '05 season. They do not want that to happen again. KW would rather have cost certainty.

Hangar18
12-15-2005, 10:35 AM
I understand their [thre Sox] position completely. They didn't offer Konerko a contract last year and got stuck paying way more than they could have if they signed him prior to the '05 season. They do not want that to happen again. KW would rather have cost certainty.

At the same time, what Im really liking about things around here (SOX related) is that the SOX didnt go into the season Fiscally handcuffing themselves. They seem to have gone into it with a general idea of a "limit"
but at the same time willing to deal (Swallowing pride and resigning Konerko)
(Old Roman response in 3............2............1..............)
Weve also done something we havnt done in quite some time ......
THE SOX ARE FILLING HOLES instead of CREATING HOLES TO FILL OTHER HOLES. Awesome. Thinking like Champions.

Flight #24
12-15-2005, 10:50 AM
At the same time, what Im really liking about things around here (SOX related) is that the SOX didnt go into the season Fiscally handcuffing themselves. They seem to have gone into it with a general idea of a "limit"
but at the same time willing to deal (Swallowing pride and resigning Konerko)
(Old Roman response in 3............2............1..............)
Weve also done something we havnt done in quite some time ......
THE SOX ARE FILLING HOLES instead of CREATING HOLES TO FILL OTHER HOLES. Awesome. Thinking like Champions.

But Hangar, Payroll's currently at $95M and they want it to settle in at $90M. There you go again - CUTTING payroll to SAVE money! Cheap and stupid!:angry:

soxfanreggie
12-15-2005, 10:54 AM
I do agree with Hangar. For the most part, we are filling holes without creating other holes, but we will need some time to see if our material we used in filling those holes is going to payoff. Every trade is a risk...how will Thome play, can Anderson get it done in CF, will Vazquez pitch well...but looking at what we gave up for what we got, I'm pretty happy. I have never been a Viz the Volcano fan, I thought we made a great trade getting rid of Marte-$2 mil+ for what he was giving us was too much, I think El Duque was going to be too over-priced for us this year getting more than the $4 mil he did last year (at least we're not like the Flubs though paying middle relief like Balsa Wood $10 mil plus a year). El Duque was good to have for Contreras, but I think JC will get along nicely with JV. Also, it will be nice if we did get most of what the Yankees gave the D'Backs for JV.

I am happy with the trades we've done this season. I think the Sox surprised a lot of people as they keep making more and more deals.

Will be a very interesting season next year. I love the additions we've made. I am sad to see some players go, but I think we're trying to do what's best for the team here. The Sox will not likely re-sign my favorite player of all time: Big Frank, but as a White Sox fan, I am glad KW, Ozzie, etc. are doing what they think is best for the team. That said, I would not mind seeing Frank back as a PH on a cheap deal...one can wish...

D. TODD
12-15-2005, 11:05 AM
Who really knows, but it seems like the Sox are somewhat pissed that they stuck by him for the last few years and then when he has his break-out season he won't consider what the Sox have done for him.

I don't blame JG or KW, if this is the case. But I think KW might view it as a lack of respect towards to organization. But who knows b/c none of us know these guys at all. Can only go on what is reported. The Sox have no reason to be pissed! They stuck by him because he was the best they had for the four spot. Hell, they had nobody even capable to fill the 5 spot. It is a business KW has shown that with Rowand & others being shown the door. (I like the trades by the way) JG would be stupid to blindly be loyal to the Sox when he becomes a free agent.

Randar68
12-15-2005, 12:27 PM
in response to one of the earlier ideas of Garland for a couple of prospects from Baltimore, referably lefties...

The Orioles have nobody worth dealing for. A couple of OF'ers, a couple of pitchers without experience above A ball.

Adam Loewen? After that?

TheOldRoman
12-15-2005, 12:29 PM
At the same time, what Im really liking about things around here (SOX related) is that the SOX didnt go into the season Fiscally handcuffing themselves. They seem to have gone into it with a general idea of a "limit"
but at the same time willing to deal (Swallowing pride and resigning Konerko)
(Old Roman response in 3............2............1..............)
Weve also done something we havnt done in quite some time ......
THE SOX ARE FILLING HOLES instead of CREATING HOLES TO FILL OTHER HOLES. Awesome. Thinking like Champions.
:o:
Hangar with a RATIONAL thought? Maybe we have finallly reached you. I am so happy that, I will let the "swallowing their pride" comment go with only saying this: they are proud to be WORLD CHAMPIONS.

Sorry I couldn't respond in time. It may be two hours later, but you know you can always count on me.:tongue:

ChiSoxLifer
12-15-2005, 01:11 PM
Midway through the Daily Herald article it reads
"

Vazquez is owed $24 million over the next two seasons, with the New York Yankees on the hook for $6 million. Last winter, the Yankees sent Vazquez to the Diamondbacks in the trade that brought Randy Johnson to New York. Arizona is picking up $4 million of Vazquez’s remaining salary, so the White Sox have to pay the right-handed pitcher a reasonable $14 million for 2006-07."

I thought the D-backs were cheap and were going to keep some of the Yankee money and were only sending over 4 million total. At 7 mil per year that salary is pretty reasonable.

KRS1
12-15-2005, 01:21 PM
in response to one of the earlier ideas of Garland for a couple of prospects from Baltimore, referably lefties...

The Orioles have nobody worth dealing for. A couple of OF'ers, a couple of pitchers without experience above A ball.

Adam Loewen? After that?

Hayden Penn, and Loewen plus another prospect would be a pretty good deal if you ask me.

Ol' No. 2
12-15-2005, 01:36 PM
Midway through the Daily Herald article it reads
"

Vazquez is owed $24 million over the next two seasons, with the New York Yankees on the hook for $6 million. Last winter, the Yankees sent Vazquez to the Diamondbacks in the trade that brought Randy Johnson to New York. Arizona is picking up $4 million of Vazquez’s remaining salary, so the White Sox have to pay the right-handed pitcher a reasonable $14 million for 2006-07."

I thought the D-backs were cheap and were going to keep some of the Yankee money and were only sending over 4 million total. At 7 mil per year that salary is pretty reasonable.It doesn't say that any more, because it's wrong. The Sox are getting $5M. Period. This is Joe Cowley writing this. Not exactly Mr. Reliable.

IlliniSox4Life
12-15-2005, 01:43 PM
I think the difference between not being mad at Konerko testing the market and being mad at Jon wanting to is that essentially Jon is where Konerko was last off season, not this off season. Paulie had a good year, and wanted an extension from the club that allowed him to have the good year. The club didn't want to give it to him for various reasons (didn't know if he'd repeat the success, wanted flexibility this off season). It came back to bite them because he had a killer year. It was their choice in not giving him the contract last year, so they can't really be mad when he wants to test the market. The difference with Jon is that he's had one good year and still has a year left on his contract. The Sox are saying they are comitted to him by wanting to sign him longer even more than they were comitted to Paulie last year. Jon is basically saying that once he had one good year with this organization and his value is high, he wants to cash that in with another club. If Paulie would've said he wanted to test free agency last year when the Sox wanted to sign him, they would've been pissed.

Now, I don't blame Jon, I can see why he wants to do what he wants to do, but I can also see why Kenny would be upset with him. IMO, Jon would be smart to sign a 3 year deal now for average-above average money. If this was a fluke season for him, he gets that cash sealed in, and regardless of the year he has, he still has a nice chunk of change. If it wasn't a fluke though, he will certainly win 15+ games for those 3 seasons and be able to cash in even further then. He'll still be relatively young, and with 3-4 good seasons on his resume should get more money as a proven guy.

ilsox7
12-15-2005, 01:47 PM
Now, I don't blame Jon, I can see why he wants to do what he wants to do, but I can also see why Kenny would be upset with him. IMO, Jon would be smart to sign a 3 year deal now for average-above average money. If this was a fluke season for him, he gets that cash sealed in, and regardless of the year he has, he still has a nice chunk of change. If it wasn't a fluke though, he will certainly win 15+ games for those 3 seasons and be able to cash in even further then. He'll still be relatively young, and with 3-4 good seasons on his resume should get more money as a proven guy.

I was saying this to someone a couple of weeks back. If I were advising Jon, my advice would be to accept a 3/27ish type deal from the Sox. This guarantees that he and his kids are set for life. If he rejects this and God forbid gets hurt or something, he is done. And if he accepts it and pitches well, he'll only be 29 when he is again a FA. At 29, if he has been good, he will still be looking at a 4 year deal worth 40-50 million. Just makes a lot more sense, IMO, to take guaranteed money now.

Ol' No. 2
12-15-2005, 01:50 PM
I think the difference between not being mad at Konerko testing the market and being mad at Jon wanting to is that essentially Jon is where Konerko was last off season, not this off season. Paulie had a good year, and wanted an extension from the club that allowed him to have the good year. The club didn't want to give it to him for various reasons (didn't know if he'd repeat the success, wanted flexibility this off season). It came back to bite them because he had a killer year. It was their choice in not giving him the contract last year, so they can't really be mad when he wants to test the market. The difference with Jon is that he's had one good year and still has a year left on his contract. The Sox are saying they are comitted to him by wanting to sign him longer even more than they were comitted to Paulie last year. Jon is basically saying that once he had one good year with this organization and his value is high, he wants to cash that in with another club. If Paulie would've said he wanted to test free agency last year when the Sox wanted to sign him, they would've been pissed.

Now, I don't blame Jon, I can see why he wants to do what he wants to do, but I can also see why Kenny would be upset with him. IMO, Jon would be smart to sign a 3 year deal now for average-above average money. If this was a fluke season for him, he gets that cash sealed in, and regardless of the year he has, he still has a nice chunk of change. If it wasn't a fluke though, he will certainly win 15+ games for those 3 seasons and be able to cash in even further then. He'll still be relatively young, and with 3-4 good seasons on his resume should get more money as a proven guy.I don't buy any of this "Kenny is PO'd at Garland" crap. This is just sportwriters trying to stir up a controversy (shocking, isn't it?). They both know it's a business. No one was shedding a tear when they were trying to trade him. Mediocre pitchers are getting 3/$30M deals. If I were Garland's agent I'd tell him he'd be nuts to sign anything less. Even if he has a mediocre year he'll get more than what the Sox were offering, and with a good year he'll get 5/$55M.

gobears1987
12-15-2005, 01:50 PM
Link to article. (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sportsstory.asp?id=132181)

Yeah, stupid White Sox, with their World Series winning strategies. Let's face it- the Sox aren't too kean about paying Garland $12 million a year (based on Burnett's ridiculous deal). Therefore, if they can get Contreras back at a reasonable price (the article, by the way, does not say the sides are close, only that JC is willing to talk), they'll have five good starters through 2007 and there could perhaps be a market correction at that time (if there isn't a work stoppage) that would allow them to resign Buehrle and/or Garcia at levels more acceptable to them. Furthermore, if they can trade Garland for pitching prospects, that just provides more insurance if one of Buehrle or Garcia walks.I think Freddy Garcia will be a Sox player as long as Ozzie is the manager. I wouldn't worry about keeping him.

ilsox7
12-15-2005, 01:58 PM
I don't buy any of this "Kenny is PO'd at Garland" crap. This is just sportwriters trying to stir up a controversy (shocking, isn't it?). They both know it's a business. No one was shedding a tear when they were trying to trade him. Mediocre pitchers are getting 3/$30M deals. If I were Garland's agent I'd tell him he'd be nuts to sign anything less. Even if he has a mediocre year he'll get more than what the Sox were offering, and with a good year he'll get 5/$55M.
And an injured year and he walks away with nothing. Maybe I am just conservative, but if someone throws 27 million at you, and you know you will have another opportunity in 3 years to possibly break the bank even bigger, you do it. All it takes is one line drive up the middle or one sore shoulder and Jon's pay day is gone.

D. TODD
12-15-2005, 01:58 PM
I was saying this to someone a couple of weeks back. If I were advising Jon, my advice would be to accept a 3/27ish type deal from the Sox. This guarantees that he and his kids are set for life. If he rejects this and God forbid gets hurt or something, he is done. And if he accepts it and pitches well, he'll only be 29 when he is again a FA. At 29, if he has been good, he will still be looking at a 4 year deal worth 40-50 million. Just makes a lot more sense, IMO, to take guaranteed money now. How much is he looking at getting through arbitration this year? I think it will be around 7-8 million. Signing for 9 million would be playing it very conservative in my opinion. Even if he reverts to a .500 pitcher with over 200 innings pitched I think he is guaranteed making at least that much on the free market next year. Injuries can always jump up, but I think he is just fine financially already, and he would be silly to limit his options and accept 9 per for 3 years.

I don't blame KW for not giving more years or money either, it seems like the best strategy for both parties at this point is exactly how they are handling it.

Ol' No. 2
12-15-2005, 02:02 PM
And an injured year and he walks away with nothing. Maybe I am just conservative, but if someone throws 27 million at you, and you know you will have another opportunity in 3 years to possibly break the bank even bigger, you do it. All it takes is one line drive up the middle or one sore shoulder and Jon's pay day is gone.Even in arbitration, he'll likely get $7M, on top of the $3.5M he earned in 2005 and however many millions he made before that, so he won't exactly walk away with nothing...:o:

But I agree that it's a gamble. I guess he just feels lucky. It's his decision to make. You don't have to agree with him to understand it.

ilsox7
12-15-2005, 02:06 PM
Even in arbitration, he'll likely get $7M, on top of the $3.5M he earned in 2005 and however many millions he made before that, so he won't exactly walk away with nothing...:o:

But I agree that it's a gamble. I guess he just feels lucky. It's his decision to make. You don't have to agree with him to understand it.

I hear ya. And I completely understand his line of thinking. And chances are he will go thru the year, injury-free, and at worst have a similar deal that the Sox offered him on the table from someone and probly have a much better deal from someone else. But when you're talking 27 or 30 million bucks, plus the distinct likelihood of having another even bigger payoff just 3 years down the line, I do it.

Paulwny
12-15-2005, 02:12 PM
I hear ya. And I completely understand his line of thinking. And chances are he will go thru the year, injury-free, and at worst have a similar deal that the Sox offered him on the table from someone and probly have a much better deal from someone else. But when you're talking 27 or 30 million bucks, plus the distinct likelihood of having another even bigger payoff just 3 years down the line, I do it.

A young guy, from the west coast, he probably wants to play for a west coast team.

Ol' No. 2
12-15-2005, 02:13 PM
A young guy, from the west coast, he probably wants to play for a west coast team.I think he'd play in Greenland if they offered him enough money.

ilsox7
12-15-2005, 02:14 PM
I think he'd play in Greenland if they offered him enough money.

I agree with that. I think you'll see Jon go to the highest bidder. Maybe he'll surprise me and that won't be the case, but I'd put good odds on it.

Paulwny
12-15-2005, 02:16 PM
I think he'd play in Greenland if they offered him enough money.

I certainly agree, but if all things are equal $$ wise, surf's up.

Lip Man 1
12-15-2005, 02:27 PM
I found this the most interesting from Tony Gianitti's story in the Sun-Times:

"His departure reduces the Sox' bullpen to four: Bobby Jenks, Neal Cotts, Dustin Hermanson and Cliff Politte. Williams said he hopes to add "one or two [relievers] to compete with people coming from our system.

McCarthy will be in the bullpen if Garland and Contreras remain, but Cooper believes that would not be a setback for the 22-year-old right-hander, who was 3-2 with a 4.03 ERA in 10 starts."

I like the way Kenny is thinking about the bullpen!!!!!

Lip

caulfield12
12-16-2005, 08:09 AM
I found this the most interesting from Tony Gianitti's story in the Sun-Times:

"His departure reduces the Sox' bullpen to four: Bobby Jenks, Neal Cotts, Dustin Hermanson and Cliff Politte. Williams said he hopes to add "one or two [relievers] to compete with people coming from our system.

McCarthy will be in the bullpen if Garland and Contreras remain, but Cooper believes that would not be a setback for the 22-year-old right-hander, who was 3-2 with a 4.03 ERA in 10 starts."

I like the way Kenny is thinking about the bullpen!!!!!

Lip

We are dreaming if we think this is not just posturing and that McCarthy is actually going to pitch out of the bullpen.

McCarthy was our number 1 or 2 starter the final six weeks of the season. He beat Curt Schilling in Boston, shut down the Rangers and went toe to toe with Johan Santana in Minny in a huge series for the Sox.

Garland is gone...now, after all our pitchers emerge healthy from the WBC, or sometime before July 31st....but I think there is a 90% chance he doesn´t pitch for the Sox this season.

oeo
12-16-2005, 09:20 AM
We are dreaming if we think this is not just posturing and that McCarthy is actually going to pitch out of the bullpen.

McCarthy was our number 1 or 2 starter the final six weeks of the season. He beat Curt Schilling in Boston, shut down the Rangers and went toe to toe with Johan Santana in Minny in a huge series for the Sox.

Garland is gone...now, after all our pitchers emerge healthy from the WBC, or sometime before July 31st....but I think there is a 90% chance he doesn´t pitch for the Sox this season.

Don't be so sure that Garland is gone. KW does not tend to ever go with what seems reasonable...he does his own thing whether you or the experts like it. It would not surprise me if Garland is gone, but at the same time it won't surprise me if he's still here on opening day.

Tragg
12-16-2005, 09:30 AM
I was saying this to someone a couple of weeks back. If I were advising Jon, my advice would be to accept a 3/27ish type deal from the Sox. This guarantees that he and his kids are set for life. If he rejects this and God forbid gets hurt or something, he is done. And if he accepts it and pitches well, he'll only be 29 when he is again a FA. At 29, if he has been good, he will still be looking at a 4 year deal worth 40-50 million. Just makes a lot more sense, IMO, to take guaranteed money now.
I completely agree. That gives him $3 mill more this year, bird in the hand. All he has to do is revert to 2004 or before, and he's back to $6 mill a year for hi free ageint contract. If he repeats 2005, he gets his $12 million (if the market's lean like it was this year, which I think it is). 3/27 is a very reasonable offer. He's gambling that he'll repeat; the Sox, understandably, aren't willing to take that risk.

As for Konerko that someone mentioned above, we wouldn't have signed Konerko for $5/60 had we not won the WS (even given his production in 2005) - those are the contracts that we were trying to avoid (and probably still are, except that Konerko is the hero). I think we would have let him walk and settled for an Overbay type player, using the savings on other players (like Thome). And had we not won the WS, with the accompanying budget increase, that would have been the proper move. But, we have more money to spend now and not signing Konerko would have been bad PR.

As for the rumor above - trading Garland AND Crede for Blalock...I wouldn't trade Crede for Blalock, so I'll leave it at that.

VASoxfan1
12-16-2005, 10:16 AM
What's blalock like defensively/monetarily out of curiosity. I still think though that crede is the guy. He was injured for a lot of the season with the back problem and coming down the last month of the season and the playoffs wasn't his batting avg like .330 or something like that?

lumpyspun
12-16-2005, 10:16 AM
I don't like the idea of getting Blaylock or Young b/c they only reason they are good is because they steal signs using a complicated system of lights in the outfield of Arlington.

Fake Chet Lemon
12-16-2005, 01:01 PM
Garland owes the Sox nothing. He takes the ball every 5th day year after year without fail and helped us win a ring. If he wants to test the waters that's how the system works. You get screwed when you are younger, then you get the chance to cash in when you put your years in. The system is designed this way, hard to blame Garland for that.

Fake Chet Lemon
12-16-2005, 01:04 PM
I was saying this to someone a couple of weeks back. If I were advising Jon, my advice would be to accept a 3/27ish type deal from the Sox. .

Why take $27M over three years when he will get that over two years on the market? That means he would be playing a year for free if he took your deal. Playing a year for free would be insane on his part.

ilsox7
12-16-2005, 01:28 PM
Why take $27M over three years when he will get that over two years on the market? That means he would be playing a year for free if he took your deal. Playing a year for free would be insane on his part.

You conveniently cut off the rest of my post. I suggest going back and reading it and you'll see my reasoning.

daveeym
12-16-2005, 01:30 PM
Garland owes the Sox nothing. He takes the ball every 5th day year after year without fail and helped us win a ring. If he wants to test the waters that's how the system works. You get screwed when you are younger, then you get the chance to cash in when you put your years in. The system is designed this way, hard to blame Garland for that. Ok, sure, uh hum, they get screwed:rolleyes: . Regardless of that I can't fault him for cashing in. However, this is Jon Garland. Stubborn and thinks he's the best pitcher ever to play the game. Where the defense always let's him down. Now he did step it up and shut his mouth last year but no one values Jon Garland higher than Jon Garland. I'm sure his agent doesn't even value him as high. I'm guessing Jon and his agent just keep telling Kenny to pound sand and that they won't even entertain an offer from the Sox right now.

Hitmen77
12-16-2005, 02:29 PM
Why take $27M guaranteed over three years when he could get that over two years on the market if he has another good season and doesn't get injured? That means he could be playing a year for free if he took your deal and doesn't get injured or have a bad season. Playing a year for free would be insane on his part if he was absolutely certain that he'll have a great year in 2006 and there was no chance of injury or reverting back to pre-2005 form.

fixed it for you. :tongue:

Hitmen77
12-16-2005, 02:47 PM
Garland owes the Sox nothing. He takes the ball every 5th day year after year without fail and helped us win a ring. If he wants to test the waters that's how the system works. You get screwed when you are younger, then you get the chance to cash in when you put your years in. The system is designed this way, hard to blame Garland for that.

Conversley, the Sox owe Garland nothing. They waited through several subpar seasons with him before he finally broke through. Thanks to the team that KW put together and the great leadership of Ozzie and Coop, the Sox gave Garland a chance to win a ring. If he wants to test the market, that's how the system works. But, the Sox don't have to sit there and get screwed while Garland only thinks about cashing in. The Sox are looking at the franchise's best interests of maintaining a winning team without blowing their payroll on 1 or 2 players, hard to blame the Sox for that.

GoSox2K3
12-18-2005, 05:35 PM
I really don't care what Garland thinks. I'm selfishly looking at this from a Sox fan's perspective and all I care about is the Sox's chances to repeat as world champs over the next few seasons.

The reality is that, even with a higher payroll (~$90mil next year, maybe even higher in '07), they can't afford to give Garland a huge blockbuster contract AND expect to keep Contreras and Buehrle (after '07). Even if they deal JG, the Sox rotation looks to be in good shape for the next few years (barring injuries of course) with their remaining 5 starters and then Neal Cotts waiting in the wings with potential to be a great starter.

So far it looks like KW is being very smart about this. It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.

SABRSox
12-18-2005, 07:15 PM
Garland is gone...now, after all our pitchers emerge healthy from the WBC, or sometime before July 31st....but I think there is a 90% chance he doesn´t pitch for the Sox this season.

Garland starts the season with the Sox, 100%. Whether he's still with the team past July 31st, I'd say 60%. After this season, I'm not so sure. Hopefully the Sox realize Buerhle is the guy they need to stick with. I don't want to see them sign Garland and then not be able to afford Buerhle.

ChiSoxPatF
12-18-2005, 09:11 PM
What's blalock like defensively/monetarily out of curiosity. I still think though that crede is the guy. He was injured for a lot of the season with the back problem and coming down the last month of the season and the playoffs wasn't his batting avg like .330 or something like that?
4.5 mil for the next three years with a 6 mil option in 09 i believe. If thats wrong, its definitly 4.5 for two years and a 6 mil guarenteed 08.

Defensively he's above average with a very strong arm. He's not as good as Crede from what I understand but he's no bum at the hotcorner. The criticism against Blalock is he has a hard time hitting off of lefties and was significantly worse outside of Arlington - but he's only 25 and averages .275, 28 HRs, 98 RBIs. Thats monsterous, I don't care who you are.

The Garland-Uribe-Crede for Young-Blalock deal would be incredible, if not better than getting Tejada alone. While I would kill to see this deal made, I doubt Texas would ever make the deal - its too lopsided IMO. If we are so excited about a trade like that its probably because its in no way fair.

Theanticub
12-18-2005, 10:43 PM
I don't understand the White Sox, they don't want to offer Konerko a deal before the 2005 season and then expect him to negoiate with them after the season. They offer Garland a 3 year deal and he doesn't want to take it and they are pissed at him? Why can't he test the free agent market like Konerko did? Too much male ego's involved here for me.
Why should Garland accept a lower offer just because the White Sox offered it to him?
I am tired of the White Sox not wanting to pay for their own players but lets trade for Yankee castoffs and pay them ( Vazquez, Contreras etc.)
I agree...but here's the difference. Konerko, with the exception of ozzie, is the toast of the town. Garland will take a few years before he is even at buehrle status. If a team, say anaheim, offered jg something decent at the end of the season, he is an angel...and there is no disputing that.

also wanted to add that I really hope I'm wrong about this at the end of the season.

Lip Man 1
12-19-2005, 01:16 PM
Laura:

And remember what Williams was quoted directly as saying, that from now on he was going to do everything that he could to prevent the Sox from being put in the position that they were with Konerko (i.e. waiting and hoping their player would re-sign.)

It appears there is now a new policy; to be as proactive as possible. Garland (and Contreras) happen to be the first with deals up under the new arrangement. I don't think it is anything personal, just business.

Lip

Hitmen77
12-19-2005, 01:26 PM
I don't understand the White Sox, they don't want to offer Konerko a deal before the 2005 season and then expect him to negoiate with them after the season. They offer Garland a 3 year deal and he doesn't want to take it and they are pissed at him? Why can't he test the free agent market like Konerko did? Too much male ego's involved here for me.
Why should Garland accept a lower offer just because the White Sox offered it to him?
I am tired of the White Sox not wanting to pay for their own players but lets trade for Yankee castoffs and pay them ( Vazquez, Contreras etc.)

After what happened on October 26, 2005, how could anyone at this point say they are "tired of the Sox doing" anything?

GoSox2K3
12-22-2005, 10:16 AM
I don't agree with the statement that the Sox don't want to pay their own players. Of all the players that the Sox let walk as FAs in the last 10 years, how many went on to make their new contract worth it for their new team? Anyone regret that we didn't give Alex Fernandez or Albert Belle a huge new contract only to watch them go down to injury?

I can only think of Ventura who had 1 or 2 outstanding seasons with the Mets after leaving here. And of course, we lost Bartolo Colon and he won the Cy Young Award this year. But we won the World Series this year, so it's not like losing him really killed us. (World Championship >>>> Cy Young Award)

As far as players we traded to avoid paying or to avoid losing as FA, again I can't think of many of these trades that went bad for us. The one that really stands out as a lemon was Foulke for Koch - but even there we got Neal Cotts in that deal. Who would you rather have had for the '05 season or in '06? Foulke or Cotts?

Hangar18
12-22-2005, 10:36 AM
Laura:

And remember what Williams was quoted directly as saying, that from now on he was going to do everything that he could to prevent the Sox from being put in the position that they were with Konerko (i.e. waiting and hoping their player would re-sign.)

It appears there is now a new policy; to be as proactive as possible. Garland (and Contreras) happen to be the first with deals up under the new arrangement. I don't think it is anything personal, just business.

Lip

And KW and the SOX should now be finally APPLAUDED for this. For too many years, this organization operated ass backwards when it came to keeping players, getting new players etc etc. Konerko deserves some credit for not being a money grubbing ball player, because he couldve really jammed it to the SOX and asked for even more money, or just left. KW isnt happy that he Rolled The Financial Dice and got burned by choosing to Ignore Konerkos agents request for a contract last year. Many of my posts were about how KW was going to get burned (taken out of context by many as me saying KW is cheap/dumb blah blah, but he has quietly acknowledged he got burned right?)

IF the SOX take this policy, only good things can come of it. JR likes to save Money and this is a pretty good way to save money, too bad it took him years to learn this lesson. Laura, thats a good question to wonder why they SOX are "mad" (they are) because JG wants to "test" the market.
If Garland tests the market, and he has a similar season in 06 as 05, his price is GOING TO SKYROCKET, and the SOX arent known for Outbidding the Yankees/Cubs/Mets/RedSox for players. THE SOX with this policy will now have a chance to keep their players, and it says to me and to fans that Every Year the SOX will go for it.
Acting like Champs. I like it.

Hangar18
12-22-2005, 10:41 AM
After what happened on October 26, 2005,

What happened on 10/26/05 was magical. We as fans crossed a line we never thought we'd cross. EXPECTING TO WIN from now on. The SOX also crossed a line. Being a CHAMPIONSHIP organization, and behaving like one.
I love it. Tell me not one of us feels a sense of dignity restored? I had a friend from Cleveland call me, happy as heck for me that my SOX won. He said things would change in this town for me and other SOX Fans, the way were Perceived, Treated, Talked To. I said YUP, hes right. Things are different ...........