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DrCrawdad
12-15-2005, 12:07 AM
...(The Sox) might opt for a minor-leaguer instead of a veteran free agent to fill the middle-relief role Vizcaino held.

Jeff Bajenaru, who posted a 1.41 ERA in 61 games for Triple-A Charlotte, could have the inside track.

But the Sox are encouraged Sean Tracey has warmed to the idea of pitching in relief after watching the ascent and success of Bobby Jenks from Double-A Birmingham.

Tracey, 25, was 14-6 in 28 starts for the Barons but could be better suited as a reliever because he doesn't have a wide repertoire of pitches. - Cubune

Comments on Bajenaru and Tracey are probably buried within the thread(s) discussing the trades of Vizcaino & Marte, but I'm wondering what WSI'ers have to say about Baj and Tracey.

Unregistered
12-15-2005, 12:16 AM
...not really in love with idea of two rookie relievers on the team...

nodiggity59
12-15-2005, 12:19 AM
I'm still holding out hope that a combo of Harris, Gload, and Borchard will bring us a solid reliever, leaving one hole for a rookie. Hopefully someone who can do what Viz did last year.

I know it's a fantasy, but I'm gonna keep posting it and maybe it will come true.:redneck

KRS1
12-15-2005, 12:25 AM
I'm still holding out hope that a combo of Harris, Gload, and Borchard will bring us a solid reliever, leaving one hole for a rookie. Hopefully someone who can do what Viz did last year.

I know it's a fantasy, but I'm gonna keep posting it and maybe it will come true.:redneck

Im with you here, but I think we could stand to have an in house righty step up into the role Vizc left behind. I want it to be Sean and think a rook is an excellent idea for this role, but it will have to played out in ST. My hopes are on getting a lefty in a trade that can throw some cheese and get outs, the combo you mentioned might be laughed at by a lot here but other teams alwasy feel they can right that ship and give us some value in return.

Banix12
12-15-2005, 12:25 AM
Both seem like solid enough prospects. Obviously after what Bajanaru did to AAA hitters last year he really has nothing left to prove down there and should be realistically competing for a major league roster spot.

Looking at Tracey's stats last year in Birmingham I would have to think he would be a longshot to make the roster, especially if they are considering converting him to a reliever. He would have to have a McCarthyesqe spring training to make it in my opinion. Though I admit my firsthand knowledge of him as a pitcher is limited so take that opinion for what it is worth.

MHOUSE
12-15-2005, 12:33 AM
I see our rotation, top to bottom going at least into the 7th inning every time out except for the very rare early hook. With Politte in the 8th and Jenks in the 9th, we've only got maybe 3 outs to divide between Hermanson and Cotts which I think they can definately handle. I'd like to have a rookie in there somewhere, but one more veteran reliever to help ease the workload put on Politte and Jenks is a must. Two rookies in the 'pen with Hermanson's back and some question marks remaining about Jenks pitching effectively for 70-some innings over the season could spell disaster.

KRS1
12-15-2005, 12:39 AM
I see our rotation, top to bottom going at least into the 7th inning every time out except for the very rare early hook. With Politte in the 8th and Jenks in the 9th, we've only got maybe 3 outs to divide between Hermanson and Cotts which I think they can definately handle. I'd like to have a rookie in there somewhere, but one more veteran reliever to help ease the workload put on Politte and Jenks is a must. Two rookies in the 'pen with Hermanson's back and some question marks remaining about Jenks pitching effectively for 70-some innings over the season could spell disaster.

I dont think both will make the squad, it's gonna be a fun battle to watch down here in spring and hopefully they dont overdo it.

also as much as hate seeing him get rocked these last two years Adkins is gonna be right there with them as he seems to be a favorite of Ozzie.

Banix12
12-15-2005, 12:40 AM
I'm still holding out hope that a combo of Harris, Gload, and Borchard will bring us a solid reliever, leaving one hole for a rookie. Hopefully someone who can do what Viz did last year.

I know it's a fantasy, but I'm gonna keep posting it and maybe it will come true.:redneck
I just can't imagine those guys netting a solid reliever, at least one that is currently a major leaguer. I could see them netting a decent young guy on the cusp of making it, the next Damaso Marte if you want to put it that way.

I just can't think of any team in baseball that really needs all three of those guys or maybe even two of them. At least bad enough to trade solid relief pitching for them. Maybe if Bajanaru was packaged with a couple of them that could be worth something.

I don't see any deals involving players like Borchard, Gload, or Harris occurring until after the non-tender deadline because teams will probably get a shot to acquire them as free agents and if not them, players similar to their caliber. I think Borchard will get a shot to earn a spot in spring training. I think Harris has a 50/50 shot of getting non-tendered. I think Gload is likely gone. And if Gload isn't gone I think he demands to get out of the sox system to a place where he has a shot at making a major league roster.

KRS1
12-15-2005, 12:57 AM
I just can't imagine those guys netting a solid reliever, at least one that is currently a major leaguer. I could see them netting a decent young guy on the cusp of making it, the next Damaso Marte if you want to put it that way.

I just can't think of any team in baseball that really needs all three of those guys or maybe even two of them. At least bad enough to trade solid relief pitching for them. Maybe if Bajanaru was packaged with a couple of them that could be worth something.

I don't see any deals involving players like Borchard, Gload, or Harris occurring until after the non-tender deadline because teams will probably get a shot to acquire them as free agents and if not them, players similar to their caliber. I think Borchard will get a shot to earn a spot in spring training. I think Harris has a 50/50 shot of getting non-tendered. I think Gload is likely gone. And if Gload isn't gone I think he demands to get out of the sox system to a place where he has a shot at making a major league roster.

Two off the top of my head, the dodgers and giants would both welcome these guys in. Durham is as good as gone in SF, they have two way old 1- baggers in Snow(who's rumored to be outta town) and Sweeney with Niekro not looking so good they could make Gload their starter. As for their OF it's old to say the least and Borch could fill Ellisons role as a 4th guy with ease. LA has Choi at first but he's proved nothing except for the occasional multi homer games on meat pitcher between 3 K games. With Izturis not coming back til mid-season at best the Kent to first movement is looking less likely this year as some had earlier speculated, but they would use Willie or Borch as a starter in the OF having only the prospect whom they acquired for Bradley, and former Mr.Baseball Illinois Jayson Werth as options.

rdivaldi
12-15-2005, 01:38 AM
Baj is pretty much a AAAA pitcher. He's a hard worker and is a good clubhouse guy, but he doesn't really have the "stuff" or command to be much more than a mop up guy.

Tracey has a great arm but terrible control. If you've seen him pitch, he has a funky delivery that is hard for him to repeat, thus it alters his release point causing tons of walks, hit batsmen, and wild pitches.

I'd look more to Munoz as a LOOGY and perhaps a trade for a right hander?

Lip Man 1
12-15-2005, 01:38 PM
In the Sun-Times today in a story by Toni Gianeitti Williams is directly quoted as saying that he hopes to bring in one or two veterans to compete for bullpen roles against some in house candidates.

Lip

Randar68
12-15-2005, 01:42 PM
Comments on Bajenaru and Tracey are probably buried within the thread(s) discussing the trades of Vizcaino & Marte, but I'm wondering what WSI'ers have to say about Baj and Tracey.

Baj is an interesting guy, his slider can be a little flat at times, but even in Marte's best years, his was as well (not comparing the 2).

Tracey is a guy I've long thought destined for the bullpen. He has a live arm but lacks the top offspeed pitches to be a starter.

Arnie Munoz, Diaz, Josh Fields (the pitcher) will also likely compete for relief jobs. I still think Munoz could be a left-specialist.

mjharrison72
12-15-2005, 01:46 PM
I guess my sense is I would prefer to not spend too much on a "veteran" to put in a mop-up situation or in a long-relief situation after a starter got lit up really bad. And I would argue technically that Jenks is still a rookie as well.

The concern is to have someone to bring in to retire lefties... not necessarily a lefty specialist, and not necessarily left-handed, but someone who can retire a batter or two when necessary. "Pulling a Marte" = walking the one batter you're brought in to pitch against, then walking the next guy, too. I'd be willing to let a rookie fight for that spot.

The point is, between Jenks, Hermanson, Cotts and Pollite, and potentially McCarthy, we should have a fairly solid bullpen for clutch game situations, and if you lose a few because of an inexperienced guy, that's baseball. Ideally, those guys get experience and you find out whether they can handle the pressure.

XplodingScorbord
12-15-2005, 01:53 PM
I see our rotation, top to bottom going at least into the 7th inning every time out except for the very rare early hook. With Politte in the 8th and Jenks in the 9th, we've only got maybe 3 outs to divide between Hermanson and Cotts which I think they can definately handle. I'd like to have a rookie in there somewhere, but one more veteran reliever to help ease the workload put on Politte and Jenks is a must. Two rookies in the 'pen with Hermanson's back and some question marks remaining about Jenks pitching effectively for 70-some innings over the season could spell disaster.

That's one of the things that I like about Ozzie...even at times when a starter got hit hard early (I can think of a few Garcia and Buehrle games like that), he stuck with them, let 'em work through it, and they as often as not had solid innings thereafter to get them to the middle/later innings. It's great Ozzie old school stuff. I just imagine he goes out there, tells them they're stinking up the joint, and to get their freaking heads in the game and knuckle down. Treats 'em like men. What a concept!

maurice
12-15-2005, 02:23 PM
KW could do a lot worse than adding a veteran lefty and then letting Baj, Tracey, Munoz, Diaz, Fields, etc. battle it out for the remaining spot(s). Plenty of teams would be happy to have a couple of these guys filling out their pen.

mjharrison72
12-15-2005, 02:39 PM
KW could do a lot worse than adding a veteran lefty and then letting Baj, Tracey, Munoz, Diaz, Fields, etc. battle it out for the remaining spot(s). Plenty of teams would be happy to have a couple of these guys filling out their pen.
And if the bullpen becomes an issue during the season, it's something that can be addressed mid-season.

caulfield12
12-15-2005, 02:43 PM
Baj is an interesting guy, his slider can be a little flat at times, but even in Marte's best years, his was as well (not comparing the 2).

Tracey is a guy I've long thought destined for the bullpen. He has a live arm but lacks the top offspeed pitches to be a starter.

Arnie Munoz, Diaz, Josh Fields (the pitcher) will also likely compete for relief jobs. I still think Munoz could be a left-specialist.

Didnt Fields go down with an injury last year? Adkins could factor in again...possibly Corwin Malone miraculously gets it together some ST. Or maybe Paulino Reynoso, etc.

There is the better than even chance we get a reliever back when we deal Garland.

Banix12
12-15-2005, 03:12 PM
Two off the top of my head, the dodgers and giants would both welcome these guys in. Durham is as good as gone in SF, they have two way old 1- baggers in Snow(who's rumored to be outta town) and Sweeney with Niekro not looking so good they could make Gload their starter. As for their OF it's old to say the least and Borch could fill Ellisons role as a 4th guy with ease. LA has Choi at first but he's proved nothing except for the occasional multi homer games on meat pitcher between 3 K games. With Izturis not coming back til mid-season at best the Kent to first movement is looking less likely this year as some had earlier speculated, but they would use Willie or Borch as a starter in the OF having only the prospect whom they acquired for Bradley, and former Mr.Baseball Illinois Jayson Werth as options.

They could use them but I still can't imagine a scenario where they trade quality relief pitching for those three guys. But we'll see if there is any interest after the Non-tender deadline

Randar68
12-15-2005, 03:23 PM
Didnt Fields go down with an injury last year? Adkins could factor in again...possibly Corwin Malone miraculously gets it together some ST. Or maybe Paulino Reynoso, etc.

There is the better than even chance we get a reliever back when we deal Garland.

Reynoso is the other guy with a chance, although, IMO, he needs another year working with Dotson. He looked like a totally different pitcher this year from the year before. Yes, Fields had surgery, rehabbing, already throwing.

wilburaga
12-15-2005, 03:29 PM
In the Sun-Times today in a story by Toni Gianeitti Williams is directly quoted as saying that he hopes to bring in one or two veterans to compete for bullpen roles against some in house candidates.

Lip

With Jenks, Cotts, Politte and Hermanson already set in the pen, I figure KW will bring in some Kevin Walker types to compete against the homegrown talent. I remember being really depressed when Walker (KW2) was the first outside acquisition last offseason. Little did I know that good things were in the offing.


W

KRS1
12-15-2005, 03:30 PM
Reynoso is the other guy with a chance, although, IMO, he needs another year working with Dotson. He looked like a totally different pitcher this year from the year before. Yes, Fields had surgery, rehabbing, already throwing.

When I saw him, Paulino was throwing a TON of change-ups here in the AFL which hopefully will help him develop it as his 3rd pitch. His control wasnt as bad as some said it was and his slider is downrighty filthy. Honestly after seeing him pitch, I think he needs another half or full season to develop that change and his other fastball in order to be a pitcher and not just a thrower, and when he does arrive I think he could be a great LOOGY+.

Randar68
12-15-2005, 03:50 PM
When I saw him, Paulino was throwing a TON of change-ups here in the AFL which hopefully will help him develop it as his 3rd pitch. His control wasnt as bad as some said it was and his slider is downrighty filthy. Honestly after seeing him pitch, I think he needs another half or full season to develop that change and his other fastball in order to be a pitcher and not just a thrower, and when he does arrive I think he could be a great LOOGY+.

The other thing to note is the speed with which he worked. When I saw him in W-S, he took what seemed like 3 minutes between pitches. Had the pitchers charting him (Tracey, Kenny Ray and BMac) all rolling their eyes and saying things like "COME ON ALREADY!" and "I wish I had this kid's arm" and "If this kid ever figures out how to PITCH..."

Then, in spring training he is getting the ball and firing without hesistation, like I said, totally different approach. Not sure what finally made it click for him.

KRS1
12-15-2005, 03:56 PM
The other thing to note is the speed with which he worked. When I saw him in W-S, he took what seemed like 3 minutes between pitches. Had the pitchers charting him (Tracey, Kenny Ray and BMac) all rolling their eyes and saying things like "COME ON ALREADY!" and "I wish I had this kid's arm" and "If this kid ever figures out how to PITCH..."

Then, in spring training he is getting the ball and firing without hesistation, like I said, totally different approach. Not sure what finally made it click for him.

Could be Razor. He is hell of a manager, and seems like he knows how to get into his players heads(in a good way). Look at Bobby Jenks, he came in a problem child, yes he got married and has kids as other motivation, but perhaps Razor was the voice in his ear pushing him to put his best out on the field, but either way I think he had a hell of an impact on his guys this season.

Randar68
12-15-2005, 04:23 PM
Could be Razor. He is hell of a manager, and seems like he knows how to get into his players heads(in a good way). Look at Bobby Jenks, he came in a problem child, yes he got married and has kids as other motivation, but perhaps Razor was the voice in his ear pushing him to put his best out on the field, but either way I think he had a hell of an impact on his guys this season.

That was Rich Dotson primarily. Shines is just the manager, the pitching coach is the guy who deals with the pitchers on a daily basis. He had a big hand in helping Jenks...

maurice
12-16-2005, 04:31 PM
His control wasnt as bad as some said it was and his slider is downrighty filthy.

He always had good stuff. The problem is that he doesn't have consistently good control. (Note 41 BB in only 57.1 IP last year, and they came in bunches.) If he can get that straightened out, he'll have no problem sticking in a MLB pen, but I'd be very surprised if he made the 25-man out of Spring Training.

elrod
12-16-2005, 05:57 PM
I was a big fan of Baj. And then I saw Travis Hafner hit one about 460 feet off him at USCF. I hope that was an aberration and not a sign of the limits of his talent at the Major League level.

maurice
12-19-2005, 01:35 PM
Last time I checked, Travis Hafner is really really good.

Flight #24
12-19-2005, 01:42 PM
Last time I checked, Travis Hafner is really really good.

Hold on, let me check right now





Damn, still really really good.

Chez
12-19-2005, 01:43 PM
Baj has gotten lit up each of the last two Septembers. The only recognizable lefty free agent is Alan Embree. Ick.

nodiggity59
12-19-2005, 01:44 PM
Well, I would say one arm outside the organization is required. I've said it before, I'll say it again: I really really hope KW can bring us a reliever for Harris/Gload/Borchard. You gotta think a package of those two will be worth an arm of some kind that has a track record. Then, you give the farm a chance to bring you the 6th guy.

maurice
12-19-2005, 01:52 PM
Hold on, let me check right now
Damn, still really really good.

Crap, that's what I was afraid of. I wish Hafner would cut that **** out. :angry:

Unfortunately, he'll probably continue to smash plenty of HR off of both good pitchers and bad pitchers.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-19-2005, 02:03 PM
I think the Sox need a long reliever in the pen, and Diaz has a chance to fill a role like that if he can make the team. Otherwise, we need to find a veteran. I don't think we have any other candidates in house.

professionalfan
12-21-2005, 02:00 AM
Baj has gotten lit up each of the last two Septembers. The only recognizable lefty free agent is Alan Embree. Ick.


Lit up is a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?

He got to throw 4 times in 5 weeks after pitching at least every other day in Charlotte. You can't judge him on that.

What if we all gave up on Cotts after his first 10 outings? Give these guys a chance to really play and then we'll see what they can do.