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Palehose13
12-14-2005, 01:37 PM
Assuming that KW is going to trade a SP for someone, who do you think it will be. I'm not asking you you want, but what you think will happen.

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 01:38 PM
Just hold your horses til I get it done!

:threadsucks

:D:

I vote option c. :tongue:

soxfan123
12-14-2005, 01:41 PM
I think we are goingto get some relief pitching or a center fielder. I do not believe we are getting Tejada. That is not our concern. We need relief pitching. Plain and simple. We already lost Marte and Vizacaino. If Jenks goes down, and we all know there is a chance of that, we are screwed at this point. There is no way we go into the season with six legitimate starters.

sircaffey1
12-14-2005, 01:43 PM
Kenny will most definitely try for Tejada, obviously...Then fall short. Turn his attention to Crawford...then fall short. Then O's reconsider and we get Tejada.

getonbckthr
12-14-2005, 01:44 PM
Crawford and Baez for Garland, Anderson and a prospect.

Ol' No. 2
12-14-2005, 01:46 PM
Tejada.

:KW I always get my man.

White Sox Randy
12-14-2005, 01:47 PM
Crawford and Baez for Garland, Anderson and a prospect.

I like that.

Flight #24
12-14-2005, 01:47 PM
- Tejada's nice, and I think if available the Sox have as good a shot as anyone. I don't see him available though.

- Crawford's a nice alternative, but I'm not yet convinced that the DBacks are interested in dealing for a soon to be expensive guy. They're not contending for 1-2 years anyway.

- Which is why I think unless KW wants to hold onto Jon and do a midseason deal, the guy they can get is Abreu. Philly reportedly wants a frontline starter for him, they can get Dye as a replacement, and he gives the Sox a corner OF with power, speed, and OBP. And he's Venezuelan, to top it all off! Plus, we know the Phils & Sox know how to work a deal. I'm thinking Garland+Dye for Abreu+PTBNL*


*PTBNL = Gio Gonzalez

Dan Mega
12-14-2005, 01:49 PM
I think the Tejada rumors are nonsense...but I've been wrong before.

getonbckthr
12-14-2005, 01:51 PM
- Tejada's nice, and I think if available the Sox have as good a shot as anyone. I don't see him available though.

- Crawford's a nice alternative, but I'm not yet convinced that the DRAYS are interested in dealing for a soon to be expensive guy. They're not contending for 1-2 years anyway.

- Which is why I think unless KW wants to hold onto Jon and do a midseason deal, the guy they can get is Abreu. Philly reportedly wants a frontline starter for him, they can get Dye as a replacement, and he gives the Sox a corner OF with power, speed, and OBP. And he's Venezuelan, to top it all off! Plus, we know the Phils & Sox know how to work a deal. I'm thinking Garland+Dye for Abreu+PTBNL*


*PTBNL = Gio Gonzalez
There fixed it for you.

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 01:51 PM
Assuming that KW is going to trade a SP for someone, who do you think it will be. I'm not asking you you want, but what you think will happen.

I think there's a good chance KW re-opens the Griffey talks. I'll go with that as my answer for what I think KW's move will be.

I'd rather have Tejada, but I'd take Griffey.

Remember, KW said that he envisions a lineup with Konerko batting 4th and Thome 5th. We all sort of questioned that and thought maybe KW wanted Iguchi to bat 3rd with a new addition batting #2. Perhaps this is all part of KW's plan to land a #3 hitter.

kwolf68
12-14-2005, 01:57 PM
NO to Griffey, he's old and washed up. He doesn't fit into the chemistry thing either. NO NO NO.

Tejada is great, but he doesn't fill a need. Which brings me to....

Crawford? I would literally wet my pants to get that deal done. A CF for the next 5-7 years hitting us .300, 20 homers and 50 steals playing good defense.

soxfan26
12-14-2005, 02:04 PM
Tejada.

Oh please oh please oh please oh please...

caulfield12
12-14-2005, 02:07 PM
- Tejada's nice, and I think if available the Sox have as good a shot as anyone. I don't see him available though.

- Crawford's a nice alternative, but I'm not yet convinced that the DBacks are interested in dealing for a soon to be expensive guy. They're not contending for 1-2 years anyway.

- Which is why I think unless KW wants to hold onto Jon and do a midseason deal, the guy they can get is Abreu. Philly reportedly wants a frontline starter for him, they can get Dye as a replacement, and he gives the Sox a corner OF with power, speed, and OBP. And he's Venezuelan, to top it all off! Plus, we know the Phils & Sox know how to work a deal. I'm thinking Garland+Dye for Abreu+PTBNL*


*PTBNL = Gio Gonzalez


Well, right now we have to shore up our bullpen a little bit with the departures of Vizcaino and Marte. Hermanson is iffy, and Jenks is one-half season removed from AA and the waiver wire.

Everyone is all over the Tejada for Uribe-Garland deal, we will just have to wait and see.

If we wanted to get really ballsy, we would package Crede and Garland together, but I think KW will hold onto Joe for at least one more year...hopefully avoiding arbitration and signing a 2-year pact.

And I am not convinced that Mackowiak is an everyday MLB 3B.

I think KW is probably thinking of the workload for Garcia and Buehrle in 2005, in addition, you´re adding the World Baseball Classic to the ledger. And Contreras also pitched a huge amount of innings.

I know they really don´t want to go to this six man rotation...but anything is possible. OG said all along El Duque was a starter...so he was nice enough to grant him his wish and get him out of town for another chance to start somewhere else.

If we got the $3 million Yankees´ subsidy, we are only going to be paying $8.5 million and $9.5 million to Vazquez....which is really $3-4.0 million if you take El Duque´s deal off the books...$4.625 million plus possibility of $2 million more in incentives.

The gun is pointed at the head of Contreras and Garland...whichever one blinks will be the first to be traded for another pitcher that we would control through 07 or 08. I would think the obvious choice would be Garland.

Finally, not sure what this trade says about Young. KW also traded Anthony Webster, who lacked Young´s power but made better contact. That´s now three top outfield prospects, when you throw in J. Reed. KW must have projected him closer to Mike Cameron than Ken Griffey.

I think this trade also says a lot for how the organization feels about Anderson and Owens and their potential for CF play. Now that Rowand and Young are gone, the position is clearly theirs for the taking.

Now watch, KW will go out and trade for Griffey or Torii Hunter tomorrow, lol.

There´s going to be a lot of speculation about Tejada, CF and the Garland-Contreras situation in the next week or so.

daveeym
12-14-2005, 02:12 PM
It's not going to be a reliever. If this move is leading to something else it's going to be bigger than a reliever. Kenny can pick up reliever's in a variety of ways that didn't necessitate this move. I chose Tejada but am thinking Other as well.

The DRAYS aren't building a contender they aren't really going to be looking to add money or veteran pitching so Crawford is out. Kenny could get him but I don't think it's in his plans. He'd have to offer BMAC and a bunch of other prospects.

The Phillies won't move BA either. They can't just be swapping roughly equivalent players (performance wise at their respective positions). They're not strong enough to do that and compete. It doesn't make them better at this point and I don't think they've got a bunch of other moves lined up if this happened.

Tejada may seem like a luxary purchase for the Sox and not address other "holes" but it's probably the most reasonable option up there. Especially since I don't think there are many left in the "other" category that required this type of move to make something happen.

EDIT: I'll through this one out there too. Tejada in, Crede gone and Uribe stays and moves to 3rd. Crede's back seems to be of major concern to the Sox right now.

caulfield12
12-14-2005, 02:12 PM
NO to Griffey, he's old and washed up. He doesn't fit into the chemistry thing either. NO NO NO.

Tejada is great, but he doesn't fill a need. Which brings me to....

Crawford? I would literally wet my pants to get that deal done. A CF for the next 5-7 years hitting us .300, 20 homers and 50 steals playing good defense.

The problem is what do we have to use as leverage....Garland or Contreras, right? It does not make sense for a team like the D-Rays to deal for a one year rental in the position they´re in, as they obviously would not be able to sign JG or JC long-term. Neither one of these guys would want to stay on a rebuilding team for 2-3 more seasons.

The best bargaining chips we have after that are probably Cotts and Crede...in terms of what would a small-market team want from the White Sox.

We probably have less luxury to trade Cotts than Joe, because we have the option of Mackowiak at 3B at least. We only have one LH reliever now...and Cotts also potentially is a starter down the line, so he has two possible values to the Sox.

Randar68
12-14-2005, 02:12 PM
Kenny's next move is to offer long-term deals to both Jose and Garland. First to accept stays, the other leaves.

THEN, IMO, he'll look to deal.

Whitesox4ever
12-14-2005, 02:12 PM
I think KW next move is to trade Garland,Owens and a minor league prospect to Toronto for Vernon Wells and Miquel Batista

caulfield12
12-14-2005, 02:16 PM
It's not going to be a reliever. If this move is leading to something else it's going to be bigger than a reliever. Kenny can pick up reliever's in a variety of ways that didn't necessitate this move. I chose Tejada but am thinking Other as well. The DRAYS aren't building a contender they aren't really going to be looking to add money or veteran pitching so Crawford is out. Kenny could get him but I don't think it's in his plans. The Phillies won't move BA either. They can't just be swapping roughly equivalent players (performance wise at their respective positions). They're not strong enough to do that.
Tejada may seem like a luxary purchase for the Sox and not addres other "holes" but it's probably the most reasonable option up there, especially since I don't think there are many left i the "other" category that required this type of move to make something happen.

No doubt a reliever is not a priority at this instant...Jeff Bajenaru could slot into this position internally, for that matter. Marte and Vizcaino were our two worst relievers for much of the season, not counting Shingo.

The Tejada move makes a lot of sense....we then have our five man rotation, albeit with no depth...and one of the five to ten best offensive producers in baseball at a premium position.

KW must have a lot of belief in Anderson, Owens and Sweeney coming through down the line...Anderson and Owens potentially this season.

We also have little bargaining chips like Gload, Willie Harris, Perez, etc., that could be dealt for relief pitching now that Mackowiak is in the fold.

caulfield12
12-14-2005, 02:21 PM
Kenny's next move is to offer long-term deals to both Jose and Garland. First to accept stays, the other leaves.

THEN, IMO, he'll look to deal.

The odds would have to be in favor of Contreras, because he probably won´t demand as much money as Garland due to age...maybe a little of the PK hometown discount since he is so comfortable with OG...and the fact that his contract would only be for two years, max three. Contreras would definitely not be looking for one of those five year deals Garland and Landis will gun for that have always been anathema to the SOX. The famous Jaime Navarro contract instead of Clemens.

We will see now what affect, if any, the El Duque parting has on him. It has been speculated about for months, but now reality will set in.

It seems like Sweeney might be the next OF prospect to be dealt...I think KW and OG like what they have in both Owens for CF and maybe Anderson RF down the line, after Dye goes.

The big question is whether that big bat will come from another OF acquisition, SS or 3B, with much speculation about Boras and Crede necessitating another move, if not this year, sometime in 2007. Josh Fields obviously figures into that equation as well.

Mickster
12-14-2005, 02:25 PM
Kenny's next move is to offer long-term deals to both Jose and Garland. First to accept stays, the other leaves.

THEN, IMO, he'll look to deal.

I could actually see this happening.

caulfield12
12-14-2005, 02:26 PM
I think KW next move is to trade Garland,Owens and a minor league prospect to Toronto for Vernon Wells and Miquel Batista

Not a bad move at all, but one I don´t think Toronto can afford to make after adding Ryan, Burnett and Overbay.

Wells might be their best offensive player....and he´s still a relatively young pup out there. He was very, very strong after starting out slowly the first couple of months. He had a monster breakout season a couple of years ago.

The Blue Jays have some strong arms in the pen, but I am not sure any are quite ready to be the man.

And I also don´t think the White Sox are in the position to absorb an $85 to $95 million payroll, which is where they would be with Wells-Batista or Tejada.

I think Toronto will need more back than Owens, too. Sweeney, Fields, Liotta, Valido...one of their upper-tier prospects.

daveeym
12-14-2005, 02:30 PM
Not a bad move at all, but one I don´t think Toronto can afford to make after adding Ryan, Burnett and Overbay.

Wells might be their best offensive player....and he´s still a relatively young pup out there. He was very, very strong after starting out slowly the first couple of months. He had a monster breakout season a couple of years ago.

The Blue Jays have some strong arms in the pen, but I am not sure any are quite ready to be the man.

And I also don´t think the White Sox are in the position to absorb an $85 to $95 million payroll, which is where they would be with Wells-Batsista or Tejada.

I think Toronto will need more back than Owens, too. Sweeney, Fields, Liotta, Valido...one of their upper-tier prospects. Agreed, I think the blue jays would be similar to the Phils in this sense. They're looking for upgrades in talent, not swapping talent. The proposed trades don't hurt either team necessarily, but it's not improving them either, unless they have 3 more moves lined up afterwards. Both these teams are looking to make the playoffs and should/and have been plundering the Marlins and others.

caulfield12
12-14-2005, 02:39 PM
Agreed, I think the blue jays would be similar to the Phils in this sense. They're looking for upgrades in talent, not swapping talent. The proposed trades don't hurt either team necessarily, but it's not improving them either, unless they have 3 more moves lined up afterwards. Both these teams are looking to make the playoffs and should/and have been plundering the Marlins and others.

I´m not all that hyped about a proposed Abreu deal because of his age, he´s roughly the equivalent of Magglio out there with a stronger arm, and he´s making way too much money.

Besides the fact that we have Dye for RF already...so unless we KNOW JD will get injured and want a $13 million dollar insurance policy, no thanks. And no, I would almost rather see Ross Gload or Chad Tracy playing CF than Bob Abreu.

Dye is a huge bargain for us, based on his level of production, for only $5 to 6 million.

Not to mention the fact I really think KW prefers Anderson end up in RF to replace Dye.

KW has to be eyeing another CF....Griffey, Hunter, Gathwright, Nook Logan, Crawford....of course, he could also go with Owens, who OG seems to be sold on. And then there´s the Milledge kid from NYM that everyone seems to be comparing to Young. I think KW was definitely concerned with Young´s strikeout ratio and his big swing in the majors. We might be giving up another Mike Cameron in Young...but certainly not a superstar. We shall see.

Palehose13
12-14-2005, 02:43 PM
I haven't voted yet because I am undecided. Who is out there that KW covets and has wanted for awhile? It seems that Kenny is getting the guys he has wanted this year.

I'm thinking maybe Griffey, but I personally would rather have Carl Crawford. However, if Miguel Tejada is out there, IMO, you gotta try to get him.

Randar68
12-14-2005, 02:54 PM
I haven't voted yet because I am undecided. Who is out there that KW covets and has wanted for awhile? It seems that Kenny is getting the guys he has wanted this year.

I'm thinking maybe Griffey, but I personally would rather have Carl Crawford. However, if Miguel Tejada is out there, IMO, you gotta try to get him.

Garland for Erstad?

(God I hope that SHOULD be in teal!)

Ol' No. 2
12-14-2005, 02:55 PM
I haven't voted yet because I am undecided. Who is out there that KW covets and has wanted for awhile? It seems that Kenny is getting the guys he has wanted this year.

I'm thinking maybe Griffey, but I personally would rather have Carl Crawford. However, if Miguel Tejada is out there, IMO, you gotta try to get him.This could be a situation where Kenny sits back and waits for the offers to come to him. Let teams compete with each other to give the best deal.

Palehose13
12-14-2005, 02:55 PM
Garland for Erstad?

(God I hope that SHOULD be in teal!)

I'm hoping that KW is over that infatuation.

daveeym
12-14-2005, 02:57 PM
I haven't voted yet because I am undecided. Who is out there that KW covets and has wanted for awhile? It seems that Kenny is getting the guys he has wanted this year.

I'm thinking maybe Griffey, but I personally would rather have Carl Crawford. However, if Miguel Tejada is out there, IMO, you gotta try to get him. I can't believe Kenny is still that big on Griffey at his current cost. When he first wanted him it was after the first couple "freak" injuries. Since then it's more like "broken down" or "injury prone." It just doesn't make as much sense, especially after shoring up so many other spots and finally getting that trophy. Kenny doesn't have to be "risky" anymore, just agressive.

Palehose13
12-14-2005, 02:57 PM
This could be a situation where Kenny sits back and waits for the offers to come to him. Let teams compete with each other to give the best deal.

Yeah, I'm thinking that Kenny is definitely in the driver's seat with this one.

Ol' No. 2
12-14-2005, 03:02 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking that Kenny is definitely in the driver's seat with this one.:hawk You mean "the cat-bird seat".:tongue:

Optipessimism
12-14-2005, 03:15 PM
EDIT: I'll through this one out there too. Tejada in, Crede gone and Uribe stays and moves to 3rd. Crede's back seems to be of major concern to the Sox right now.

I'd rather that happen since Crede has his back issues, but the O's already have Mora at 3B. I guess they could put him back at SS and put Crede at 3B, but who knows?

If McCarthy is involved in any deal I won't understand it simply from the money side of things, but if he is going to be traded I'd like to see KW make another play at Eric Chavez to replace Joe or go after Bobby Abreu to offset the loss of outfielders. I'd love another LH bat to hit 3rd in front of Konerko and Thome. A 3-4-5 of Abreu/Chavez-Konerko-Thome in the Cell, if healthy, could combine for 110 HRs and 350 RBI's or even more. Plus, it would give our lineup superb lefty/righty balance and give either Uribe or Iguchi (whoever hits second) even better pitches to hit.

maurice
12-14-2005, 03:29 PM
I agree that Garland or Contrares is likely to be traded. They both have a lot of value, so KW should get a lot of value in return. Ideally, it'll be Tejada, but we'll just have to wait and see.

I really think KW prefers Anderson end up in RF to replace Dye.

Based on what? KW essentially has said the opposite, contradicting media reports that Anderson will end up as a corner OF.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-14-2005, 03:53 PM
http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/23/235250.jpg

I want the guy with two silver bats in his band! He must be stronger than Zeus!

No seriously, I want Roberto Abreu. Noowww!

He fits in perfectly into our line-up as the new # 2 hitter Ozzie Guillen promised us. And what's that I see in the background of the pic above? A Venezuelan flag? Ozzie guy's home country?? They planned this all out didn't they??

mdep524
12-14-2005, 03:55 PM
You can credibly throw jut about any name out there and make a reasonable case for it. Tejada, Abreu, Crawford are in there. Ramirez ain't gonna happen (thankfully), but it could. Griffey is a possibility. Vernon Wells. You could probably make a case for ARod (off the top of my head- Garland, Tracey and and OF prospect, Yankees sign Nomar to play 3rd?).

Isn't this insane? The ultimate hot stove offseason for us Sox fans!

OK one more wacky one... Carlos Beltran? Coming off a down year....the Mets seem desperate for pitching.... we throw in a few prospects and they pick up some of his contract. Very unlikely, but now nothing's out of the realm!

russ99
12-14-2005, 04:16 PM
Isn't this insane? The ultimate hot stove offseason for us Sox fans!

It has never been a better time to be a Sox fan than right now! :)

Especially for us long-suffering types.

I see Kenny shooting high with his next deal.

Ol' No. 2
12-14-2005, 04:23 PM
You can credibly throw jut about any name out there and make a reasonable case for it. Tejada, Abreu, Crawford are in there. Ramirez ain't gonna happen (thankfully), but it could. Griffey is a possibility. Vernon Wells. You could probably make a case for ARod (off the top of my head- Garland, Tracey and and OF prospect, Yankees sign Nomar to play 3rd?).

Isn't this insane? The ultimate hot stove offseason for us Sox fans!

OK one more wacky one... Carlos Beltran? Coming off a down year....the Mets seem desperate for pitching.... we throw in a few prospects and they pick up some of his contract. Very unlikely, but now nothing's out of the realm!That's pretty much the bottom line here. I can almost guarantee that at least a half-dozen teams will be interested in making offers for Jon Garland. Most teams don't have 4 reliable starters and the Sox have SIX.:)

caulfield12
12-14-2005, 04:24 PM
I agree that Garland or Contrares is likely to be traded. They both have a lot of value, so KW should get a lot of value in return. Ideally, it'll be Tejada, but we'll just have to wait and see.



Based on what? KW essentially has said the opposite, contradicting media reports that Anderson will end up as a corner OF.

We will know how KW feels about Anderson if he starts Opening Day in CF.

I wouldn´t necessarily agree with those who think that he´s a sure thing to be better than Young...many baseball scouts prefer the power-speed combination of Young, feeling that he will steal more bases and hit more homers than Brian.

If I were the D-Backs, I would probably go with the higher impact player too.

I think there are always going to 8-10 MLB centerfielders better than Brian Anderson, but only a few that could play RF better. On a ¨dream team,¨ Anderson is above average in CF and very strong in RF.

caulfield12
12-14-2005, 04:28 PM
That's pretty much the bottom line here. I can almost guarantee that at least a half-dozen teams will be interested in making offers for Jon Garland. Most teams don't have 4 reliable starters and the Sox have SIX.:)

What´s going to be most interesting is who wins the derby....is it going to be the team that can pay Contreras big money right now and wants to win it this season and next, or is it going to be a franchise that is competitive now but is willing to spend $40-60 million on Garland over a 4-5 year deal?

We are all speculating whichever decides to stay first is what KW is doing...but he doesn´t need to be a hurry, he can sit back and find out which pitcher has the most value in this market. There are arguments to be made for both, and each side can be passionately and intelligently argued, which is what makes baseball so fun. Of course, the most important point...which pitcher on the 2006 Sox gives the team the best opportunity to repeat as champions?

I personally side with keeping Contreras with a one or two year extension (through 07 or 08) and letting JG free while simultaneously upgrading a perceived weakness on the team (bullpen, 3B, SS, CF).

DumpJerry
12-14-2005, 04:32 PM
Between Garland and Contreras, whomever looks to be the more difficult to sign will be a mid-season trade to the A's for Frank Thomas.

caulfield12
12-14-2005, 04:35 PM
Between Garland and Contreras, whomever looks to be the more difficult to sign will be a mid-season trade to the A's for Frank Thomas.

Okay, I am assuming you are joking. Please tell me the White Sox are not going to retire his number and then trade for him, too, lol?

We would never trade starting pitching in this way...even if Thome and PK were blowing chunks at the plate.

maurice
12-14-2005, 04:36 PM
I wouldn´t necessarily agree with those who think that he´s a sure thing to be better than Young.

Who thinks this? Young certainly has a higher upside / more potential than Anderson. For this reason, I wouldn't be surprised if AZ asked for Young and not Anderson. AZ is in rebuilding mode and can afford to wait months (or even years) for Young to develop. OTOH, the Sox are the defending champs. With Rowand gone, we need a starting CF right now, and Anderson is ready right now.

I think there are always going to 8-10 MLB centerfielders better than Brian Anderson, but only a few that could play RF better.

A very good defensive CF (one who can catch and throw) always is an very very very very good defensive RF. The same is true of Jones and Hunter. That doesn't mean you move them to RF, unless you have an even better defensive CF waiting in the wings. Anderson is the best defensive OF in the entire Sox organization. With Rowand and Young both gone, it's not even close.

Randar68
12-14-2005, 04:42 PM
We will know how KW feels about Anderson if he starts Opening Day in CF.

I wouldn´t necessarily agree with those who think that he´s a sure thing to be better than Young...many baseball scouts prefer the power-speed combination of Young, feeling that he will steal more bases and hit more homers than Brian.


You're reading a lot into nothing. Maurice and I both "like" Brian Anderson but "love" Chris Young.

Anderson is more of a sure-thing, but Young was the only position player with legit super-star potential...

caulfield12
12-14-2005, 04:45 PM
Who thinks this? Young certainly has a higher upside / more potential than Anderson. For this reason, I wouldn't be surprised if AZ asked for Young and not Anderson. AZ is in rebuilding mode and can afford to wait months (or even years) for Young to develop. OTOH, the Sox are the defending champs. With Rowand gone, we need a starting CF right now, and Anderson is ready right now.



A very good defensive CF (one who can catch and throw) always is an very very very very good defensive RF. The same is true of Jones and Hunter. That doesn't mean you move them to RF, unless you have an even better defensive CF waiting in the wings. Anderson is the best defensive OF in the entire Sox organization. With Rowand and Young both gone, it's not even close.


I´m just saying there are many here (of course, many have never even seen Young in person) that think Anderson is the better prospect, especially when his wrist has fully healed.

We don´t have a better defensive CFer right now...but Owens might come close if he continues improving. Of course, there are the same arm concerns with Owens we saw with Pods and Juan Pierre.

I am just saying that ideally, we get someone like Carl Crawford and move Anderson over to RF to replace JD in 2007.

It makes a player more marketable to ¨sell¨ them as a CFer or a player with the versatility to play all the OF positions...but I am still not 100% convinced BA will be THAT much better than Rowand out there. Yes, supposedly he gets better jumps...is more instinctive....has a slightly better arm, although not a cannon either.

caulfield12
12-14-2005, 04:49 PM
You're reading a lot into nothing. Maurice and I both "like" Brian Anderson but "love" Chris Young.

Anderson is more of a sure-thing, but Young was the only position player with legit super-star potential...


Yes, and so was Jimmy Hurst...Kenny Williams...Daryl Boston...Anthony Webster...Mike Cameron, etc.

I don´t know, Brian Anderson is probably going to end up being closer to Aaron Rowand-Jeremy Reed than Willie Mays or Ken Griffey, but he will be a solid, above-average major league player. Which describes Aaron Rowand and will eventually describe Jeremy Reed in all likelihood.

Something in the Mark Kotsay mode...maybe more power and less steals.

Definitely better than Eric Byrnes.

Randar68
12-14-2005, 04:50 PM
It makes a player more marketable to ¨sell¨ than as a CFer or a player with the versatility to play all the OF positions...but I am still not 100% convinced BA will be THAT much better than Rowand out there. Yes, supposedly he gets better jumps...is more instinctive....has a slightly better arm, although not a cannon either.

Owens is just not as instinctual. Anderson reads the ball at contact and reacts accordingly. Rowand would many times not have an accurate read until the ball was out of the infield.

Anderson has a plus arm (bordering plus-plus) and knows how to set his feet and be in proper position to make an accurate throw. Rowand was abysmal at ALL of these things until this year, and even then he wasn't eye-poppingly good at any of them.

Sweeney is a better CF'er than Owens.

caulfield12
12-14-2005, 04:55 PM
Owens is just not as instinctual. Anderson reads the ball at contact and reacts accordingly. Rowand would many times not have an accurate read until the ball was out of the infield.

Anderson has a plus arm (bordering plus-plus) and knows how to set his feet and be in proper position to make an accurate throw. Rowand was abysmal at ALL of these things until this year, and even then he wasn't eye-poppingly good at any of them.

Sweeney is a better CF'er than Owens.

And yet many wanted to give Rowand the GG and were just as upset he lost as they were when Crede lost to Chavez.

The real question with this deal...how many would make it Contreras-Garland-McCarthy (pick any of the three) for Vazquez and the money?

Obviously, the future is better for the next two seasons....because we didn´t eat any of El Duque´s salary and we´re getting money from the Yankees supposedly. They also took Vizcaino off our hands as well...not sure if that is a loss or gain, based on Vizcaino in the 2nd half of the season.

OTOH, we´ve dealt away, as you say, our one true potential superstar, and I guess you can include McCarthy there too. The future is not necessarily brighter for 08-09-10, etc.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-14-2005, 04:56 PM
This could be a situation where Kenny sits back and waits for the offers to come to him. Let teams compete with each other to give the best deal.

Yeah, and for once I'd like to get someone's else's best prospect thrown into the deal as well.

maurice
12-14-2005, 04:58 PM
Brian Anderson is probably going to end up being closer to Aaron Rowand . . . a solid, above-average major league player.

Which is fine with me. OTOH, he is toolsier than Rowand, so he might be better. In any event, you obviously can do a lot worse than a Rowand equivalent in CF. After all, we won the WS with Rowand himself in CF.

BTW, Owens has a long way to go to play CF for the Sox. He lacks Anderson's arm, he was deemed worse than Young defensively (and thus played LF in B'ham), and he's not even playing CF in the Venezuelan League.

Randar68
12-14-2005, 05:08 PM
And yet many wanted to give Rowand the GG and were just as upset he lost as they were when Crede lost to Chavez.

And those people don't know *** they are talking about, so what does it have to do with you, me, and Maurice? Just asking.

The real question with this deal...how many would make it Contreras-Garland-McCarthy (pick any of the three) for Vazquez and the money?

Obviously, the future is better for the next two seasons....because we didn´t eat any of El Duque´s salary and we´re getting money from the Yankees supposedly. They also took Vizcaino off our hands as well...not sure if that is a loss or gain, based on Vizcaino in the 2nd half of the season.

OTOH, we´ve dealt away, as you say, our one true potential superstar, and I guess you can include McCarthy there too. The future is not necessarily brighter for 08-09-10, etc.

Young wasn't going to help in 2006 and probably wouldn't be ready to realize that superstar potential in 2007, but beyond then, it has the potential to really come back to haunt us.

As with all our pitching and contract situations, we're built for a 3-year run, 2005 was year 1, IMO.

Flight #24
12-14-2005, 05:38 PM
Yeah, and for once I'd like to get someone's else's best prospect thrown into the deal as well.

Thrown in? This deal was Vazquez for Young+Vizcaino The add-in were on their side to take Duque. Don't kid yourself that teams value him from that inning in Boston (as legendary as it was). They know that what they're getting is the guy the Sox had during the regular season, and possibly even one declining from that.

Vernam
12-14-2005, 07:36 PM
Yeah, and for once I'd like to get someone's else's best prospect thrown into the deal as well.Which generally means your team isn't in contention. Me, I'm not in a big hurry to start a five-year plan.

I liked Randar's comment about Kenny signing whichever of Garland and Contreras caves in first -- mainly because I said the same to my wife on the way home from work tonight. :redneck Then I thought, what if they both signed? That's a problem I'd like to have.

Seriously, though, I wonder if Kenny will feel any pressure to deal one of them before spring training. If he doesn't trade before then, the staff could look kind of crowded, maybe to the point where one of them will express unhappiness. Or even insist on a trade, which is not the position you want to be in as GM.

Dynamics of the August trade deadline have changed, as we didnt see the expected blockbusters this past year because so many teams remained in contention. Maximum value for our "extra" starter could be before the season starts.

Or KW might just be waiting to see whether Buehrle or Garcia is gassed after pitching in the international tournament. Could be we don't have a surplus after all . . .

Vernam

caulfield12
12-14-2005, 08:18 PM
And those people don't know *** they are talking about, so what does it have to do with you, me, and Maurice? Just asking.



Young wasn't going to help in 2006 and probably wouldn't be ready to realize that superstar potential in 2007, but beyond then, it has the potential to really come back to haunt us.

As with all our pitching and contract situations, we're built for a 3-year run, 2005 was year 1, IMO.


One thing this trade do is put Sweeney back into play as our RFer of the future. With Anderson and Young, Anderson was probably going to have to play LF or RF....probably RF, as I´m assuming Pods will be here two years and Jermaine only through next season.

Maybe Owens can replace Pods in 07 or 08 for LF, but I think he is probably going to end up more of a 4th outfielder...Chris Singleton with more speed and less power but more overall athleticism. Maybe he will keep progressing and develop power at the major league level...but he looks to be a singles and triples hitter now.

The only concern I have now that Young is out of the picture is that the pressure will really be on Thome and Konerko to supply the power after J. Dye leaves. Obviously, there are probably other moves to be made...but Anderson, Sweeney and Pods-Owens doesn´t exactly strike fear into anyone´s heart.

We might lose another power source in Crede as well....obviously, we have the maneuverability with JG or El Gran Titan de Bronze to add that extra hitter that will secure our future....Tejada, Crawford, etc.

That leaves the only problem as a potential breakdown from one of the starters...because El Duque is no longer around for insurance if we deal JG or Jose.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-14-2005, 08:45 PM
Thrown in? This deal was Vazquez for Young+Vizcaino The add-in were on their side to take Duque. Don't kid yourself that teams value him from that inning in Boston (as legendary as it was). They know that what they're getting is the guy the Sox had during the regular season, and possibly even one declining from that.

I know what this deal was. I was not referring to this deal. What I am saying is that when people come to KW for one of our starters in the near future, we should ask for someone's top prospect thrown in (besides starters in return, of course). In the last several years, KW has traded a whole bunch of prospects and we never seem get anyone's in return. Yes, the may be prospects, but eventually some pan out.

If we're dealing from a position of strength for a top-line pitcher (JC or JG), I want an everyday player and someone's best prospect in return.

maurice
12-14-2005, 09:14 PM
In the last several years, KW has traded a whole bunch of prospects and we never seem get anyone's in return.

Except for Cotts, Olivo, Owens, and Jenks. Heck, KW got Jenks for free, and Owens was essentially free.

He also picks up young major leaguers like Uribe and Marte for borderline prospects.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-14-2005, 11:36 PM
Except for Cotts, Olivo, Owens, and Jenks. Heck, KW got Jenks for free, and Owens was essentially free.

He also picks up young major leaguers like Uribe and Marte for borderline prospects.

My point exactly. When we get some other team's prospects that we like (Cotts, Olivo, Jenks, Owens, etc.), they turn out to be pretty good. I'm saying we just need to make sure it's not a one-way street on this prospect thing.

caulfield12
12-15-2005, 09:33 AM
My point exactly. When we get some other team's prospects that we like (Cotts, Olivo, Jenks, Owens, etc.), they turn out to be pretty good. I'm saying we just need to make sure it's not a one-way street on this prospect thing.

But look who we´ve gotten in return for these so-called prospects

Everett
Contreras for a minor-league split deal in Loaiza
R. Alomar...not such a good move
F. Garcia
Vazquez
Thome
Marte for Guerrier
Owens for Alex Escobar
Jenks
Cotts and Olivo as part of deals for Bradford, Mark Johnson and Foulke
Willie Harris for Singleton
Bartolo Colon
Uribe for Miles
Julio Ramirez for Jeff Abbott
DAngelo Jimenez

KW goes after talent, and, in the last two cases, it didn´t pan out. But he is persistent and focused.

We´ve only really grown Rowand, Crede and Buehrle ourselves. Garland was for Karchner.

But we also ditched Howry for Francisco...as Howry looked done at the time....got back Paulino Reynoso for Alomar JR and then re-signed him....Felix Diaz for Kenny Lofton, and Adkins for Durham. Of course, Adkins was never a top prospect, but Diaz was highly thought of at the time of that deal.

Of all the minor leaguers we´ve dealt, Jeremy Reed is the only one, along with Frank Francisco if he recovers from arm problems, with All-Star promise...and that´s a stretch. Of course, dealing Young and Gio Gonzalez are big-time risks, Haigwood a lesser one IMO. But trading JG will get us two blue chip prospects back....or Blalock-Wilkerson, Tejada, etc.

Frater Perdurabo
12-15-2005, 10:21 AM
Give me Crawford. I think (hope) Kenny realizes that Crawford now represents a faster but less HR-powerful version of what Young was projected to become. Crawford also has a cheap multi-year contract. He could play CF, allowing Anderson to take over in right when Dye leaves after 2006, or move to left if and when Pods leaves or starts to lose his speed. Crawford also provides long-term insurance at the leadoff spot in the event that Owens isn't the answer to replace Pods and/or makes Owens expendable down the road.

My pipedream would be to agree to a long-term deal with Garland, and then trade Vazquez (or Contreras if they insist) plus two strong prospects to Tampa Bay for Crawford.

Imagine Pods and Crawford at the top of the order, setting the table for Thome, Konerko and Dye at 3-4-5, then Iguchi, AJ, Crede, Anderson and Uribe collect the leftover RBIs. Unreal.

In 2007, the Sox still have a rotation of Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, Contreras/Vasquez and McCarthy. Then for 2008, they can re-sign Buehrle and then decide on Garcia on the basis of whether or not they think Broadway is ready.

caulfield12
12-15-2005, 10:34 AM
Give me Crawford. I think (hope) Kenny realizes that Crawford now represents a faster but less HR-powerful version of what Young was projected to become. Crawford also has a cheap multi-year contract. He could play CF, allowing Anderson to take over in right when Dye leaves after 2006, or move to left if and when Pods leaves or starts to lose his speed. Crawford also provides long-term insurance at the leadoff spot in the event that Owens isn't the answer to replace Pods and/or makes Owens expendable down the road.

My pipedream would be to agree to a long-term deal with Garland, and then trade Vazquez (or Contreras if they insist) plus two strong prospects to Tampa Bay for Crawford.

Imagine Pods and Crawford at the top of the order, setting the table for Thome, Konerko and Dye at 3-4-5, then Iguchi, AJ, Crede, Anderson and Uribe collect the leftover RBIs. Unreal.

In 2007, the Sox still have a rotation of Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, Contreras/Vasquez and McCarthy. Then for 2008, they can re-sign Buehrle and then decide on Garcia on the basis of whether or not they think Broadway is ready.

We actually have Vazquez, if we still want to keep him, and McCarthy under contract in 2008.

You have to think Broadway will be on the roster...and either Garcia or Buehrle....hopefully Mark due to age and wear and tear on Garcia....and Contreras might even sign through 2008, if not 2007. Then you can fill in any holes with Cotts and-or Haeger, Honel, Malone, Tracey, Liotta, Lumsden AND any prospects we might get back from a possible Garland trade to Texas, Baltimore, etc.

With the Vazquez deal, things are shaping up much better for 2008 and beyond...we just cannot trade McCarthy, no matter how tempting. We´ll have the money to re-sign either Buehrle OR Garcia, Cotts and maybe even Contreras.

The only wild cards are how good Young and Gio Gonzalez become...but it´s a risk worth taking IMO.