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sox230
12-14-2005, 01:01 AM
This move would be incredible!!!!!!!! That means we have 6 awesome pitchers, which means we can trade one either for a center fielder or bullpen help. kenny Williams is God!!!! Deal set to be announced later today per mlb.com:supernana: :supernana: :supernana:

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 01:06 AM
Well, I'll leave this here since it appears to be legit and more than a rumor. Not that this won't stop 10 other people from immediately starting threads before even looking to see if there is already a thread on this subject.

Assuming this trade goes down, there has to be a followup trade, right? None of Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, Contreras or Vazquez is going to the pen. McCarthy doesn't really need any more time in the minors and he would be wasted in the pen.

Could this actually lead to a pitcher (Garand, Contreras, Vazquez) + Uribe for Tejada trade?

Or could Kenny maybe spin a pitcher for a centerfielder?

This is extremely interesting.

Realist
12-14-2005, 01:06 AM
:whistle:

WhiteSoxFan84
12-14-2005, 01:06 AM
NOT OFFICIAL YET.

But, this is awesome, somewhat. Young may come back to haunt us, but we still have Garland. Speaking of which, is he next to be moved? If so, where?

Jon Garland for Bobby Abreau??? DO ITTT! lol

rwcescato
12-14-2005, 01:07 AM
This move would be incredible!!!!!!!! That means we have 6 awesome pitchers, which means we can trade one either for a center fielder or bullpen help. kenny Williams is God!!!! Deal set to be announced later today per mlb.com:supernana: :supernana: :supernana:

I really don't know how great this trade will be. I know that KW has been enamored with Vasquez for some time. He has not been the pitcher of old since he left Canada. I hope Ozzie and Cooper can help right his ship. If they can it means the Sox have 3 legit #1 starters in Buerhle, Garcia and Vasquez.
That would be incredible.
Rich:gulp:

Realist
12-14-2005, 01:07 AM
Link (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051213&content_id=1281555&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp)

michned
12-14-2005, 01:09 AM
I really don't know how great this trade will be. I know that KW has been enamored with Vasquez for some time. He has not been the pitcher of old since he left Canada. I hope Ozzie and Cooper can help right his ship. If they can it means the Sox have 3 legit #1 starters in Buerhle, Garcia and Vasquez.
That would be incredible.
Rich:gulp:

I have a feeling Garland is on the move if this trade goes down.

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 01:10 AM
CBS.sportsline reporting the same. (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9094678)

Realist
12-14-2005, 01:11 AM
I have a feeling Garland is on the move if this trade goes down.

Garland for prospects and a reliever and then land Damon.

HotelWhiteSox
12-14-2005, 01:14 AM
Grrr, I've supported KW with all his moves, but I don't like this one. Vazquez is crap, you can't go by his Montreal career. Plus he wants to be on the East Coast, he'd just complain the whole time. I'd rather have 1 year of Garland than 3+ of the piece of crap that is Javier Vazquez. Not to mention that you're bringing him into a hitter friendly park. Then you add Young into the equation, no thanks. If it was him for El Duque straight up, with Vazquez pitching in the bullpen, I wouldn't mind, but these are clearly not the intentions. Unless he can swing someone for someone worthwile, something I'm not really seeing, I don't really like this. I'll reserve judgment since there will probably be another move on the way, but it sucks as is

Corlose 15
12-14-2005, 01:16 AM
Garland for prospects and a reliever and then land Damon.

Damnit why is everyone so quick to trade Jon Garland? Let him win 18 games again next year and lead to Sox to another WS championship, then if you have to lose him in FA at least you've got another ring. Garland makes this team better now.

soltrain21
12-14-2005, 01:16 AM
Grrr, I've supported KW with all his moves, but I don't like this one. Vazquez is crap, you can't go by his Montreal career. Plus he wants to be on the East Coast, he'd just complain the whole time. I'd rather have 1 year of Garland than 3+ of the piece of crap that is Javier Vazquez. Not to mention that you're bringing him into a hitter friendly park. Then you add Young into the equation, no thanks. If it was him for El Duque straight up, with Vazquez pitching in the bullpen, I wouldn't mind, but these are clearly not the intentions


I would LOVE to hear him complain to Ozzie.

gobears1987
12-14-2005, 01:17 AM
I love KW's moves to date, but I don't know about this one. I wouldn't want to move Garland as he and Buehrle seem to be building off of eachother, and I don't want to screw Buehrle up. If we can move El Duque, fine do it, but don't touch Garland.

Scottiehaswheels
12-14-2005, 01:17 AM
Garland for prospects and a reliever and then land Damon.

One good aspect about Vasquez is that he's a strikeout pitcher.... We really don't have one of those on our staff in the 9K/9 ratio... Contreras is closest but... Might be a good thing to allow our defense a day to semi-relax once in awhile...

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 01:17 AM
Grrr, I've supported KW with all his moves, but I don't like this one. Vazquez is crap, you can't go by his Montreal career. Plus he wants to be on the East Coast, he'd just complain the whole time. I'd rather have 1 year of Garland than 3+ of the piece of crap that is Javier Vazquez. Not to mention that you're bringing him into a hitter friendly park. Then you add Young into the equation, no thanks. If it was him for El Duque straight up, with Vazquez pitching in the bullpen, I wouldn't mind, but these are clearly not the intentions

In Kenny we trust. :smile:

If this is the trade, I like it. I never would have thought that El Duque and Young would get us Vazquez. You have to think Kenny is going to follow this up with another move, maybe for a centerfielder.

I got it! We need a CF and have pitching to trade. Freddy Garcia for Jeremy Reed! :D:

koch44
12-14-2005, 01:17 AM
Just as I was studying for finals!

I honestly don't know how I've been able to get good grades this semester.:o::cool:

Flight #24
12-14-2005, 01:19 AM
If they get the Spankee$$ from 'zona, Vazquez comes in at $9M/yr. Add in Duque's $5 and it's $6.5, which is ridiculously cheap in the current market, and gives them 4 starters locked in for '07.

Now turn around and deal Garland and his $7M arb award and Uribe and his $3M salary for Tejada and you've ridiculously improved the team both short and medium-term for a net payroll increase of $8M. And after '06, Dye's $6M comes off the books.

Abreu excites me less, although I'd assume it's Garland+Dye for Bobby, making it relatively cash-neutral.

I'm warming up to this, but ONLY if there's a followup move. I understand the logic either way, but I'm nervous about losing Young to effectively push McCarthy from #5 to RP. I might rather keep him and take my chances at resigning Contreras at a decent price.

soxfan43
12-14-2005, 01:19 AM
I like the move, gets rid of el duque and his salary. however, with McCarthy, that's 6 starting pitchers. I don't see Mccarthy being too happy spending 06 in AAA or the pen. Kenny has to have something up his sleave, but I don't know. Lot of crazy moves so far thus offseason, nothing would really surprise me.

KRS1
12-14-2005, 01:20 AM
Man I hope we can convince Javi to learn a sinker, b/c balls fly when he toes the rubber.

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 01:21 AM
If this leads to Tejada, KW is the greatest GM in history. If not, then it's risk to lose Young and we'll see if it pays off.

KRS1
12-14-2005, 01:22 AM
If they get the Spankee$$ from 'zona, Vazquez comes in at $9M/yr. Add in Duque's $5 and it's $6.5, which is ridiculously cheap in the current market, and gives them 4 starters locked in for '07.

Now turn around and deal Garland and his $7M arb award and Uribe and his $3M salary for Tejada and you've ridiculously improved the team both short and medium-term for a net payroll increase of $8M. And after '06, Dye's $6M comes off the books.

Abreu excites me less, although I'd assume it's Garland+Dye for Bobby, making it relatively cash-neutral.

I'm warming up to this, but ONLY if there's a followup move. I understand the logic either way, but I'm nervous about losing Young to effectively push McCarthy from #5 to RP. I might rather keep him and take my chances at resigning Contreras at a decent price.

Wow you must be a math major, 9-5=4.

Realist
12-14-2005, 01:23 AM
Damnit why is everyone so quick to trade Jon Garland? Let him win 18 games again next year and lead to Sox to another WS championship, then if you have to lose him in FA at least you've got another ring. Garland makes this team better now.

Hey, I love Garland too. It's just that I don't think he loves us all that much. If we're gonna lose him anyway, and we end up with Vasquez [who I think Coop can straighten out], we can dangle Garland to some team for another solid pen guy and maybe there'll be a few bones left to get Damon.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Damon would fit in great with our bunch (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-0512120134dec12,1,2374230.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines) and our 1-5 in the batting order would be absolutely sick [in the good sense of the word].

When it looked desperate for his guys, Pierzynski was handed a home plate by Damon, who was sitting in the front row along with the Sox's Chris Widger and Brian Anderson. Pierzynski whacked Simon Diamond over the head with the plate en route to the win.

HotelWhiteSox
12-14-2005, 01:25 AM
MLB.com's linkage is a little screwy, here is the story that talks about this particular deal (The other one just said that a deal was possible)

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051214&content_id=1281727&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp

KRS1
12-14-2005, 01:25 AM
Hey, I love Garland too. It's just that I don't think he loves us all that much. If we're gonna lose him anyway, and we end up with Vasquez [who I think Coop can straighten out], we can dangle Garland to some team for another solid pen guy and maybe there'll be a few bones left to get Damon.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Damon would fit in great with our bunch (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-0512120134dec12,1,2374230.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines) and our 1-5 in the batting order would be absolutely sick [in the good sense of the word].

Yeah thats what we need an overpayed 30yo CF who creates a logjam for the next 5 years in our system.

A.T. Money
12-14-2005, 01:26 AM
If this is the trade. Duque and Young for Vasquez, then I like it.

Put McCarthy in the pen as a long reliever so you're not wasting his talent, or let him start the year in AAA just so he keeps pitching as a starter. I'm sure at some point you'll need him.

Vasquez is nice because he's a strikeout pitcher who can be very streaky like Garcia. And we all know how good Freddy is when he's on.

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 01:26 AM
In Kenny we trust. :smile:

If this is the trade, I like it. I never would have thought that El Duque and Young would get us Vazquez. You have to think Kenny is going to follow this up with another move, maybe for a centerfielder.

I got it! We need a CF and have pitching to trade. Freddy Garcia for Jeremy Reed! :D:

Well Vazquez is one of those unique guys out there for us. He went 11-14 with a 4 something, but has a ton of talent and makes a good coin, so obviously someone wants to get rid of him. And at the same time, KW's always had a ****-on for this guy and I'm sure Coop and company think they can get him back to Montreal form (I wouldn't put it past them myself).

This move I like a lot. No way I'm giving up Garland for Vazquez, but if this trade goes down, I'd be fine then trading Garland for a top-notch CF. Garland's for real I think and after '06 he'll be asking for a lot more money than we can throw at him, repeat title or not.

havelj
12-14-2005, 01:30 AM
Remember to not judge each move in the post-season but rather look at full body of work on April 1.

Again:
Wait for all post-season moves to be made before rushing to judgment on each one.

We have three things going for us:
1. More money than ever to play with.
2. Dealing from strength.
3. The most aggressive, creative and forward thinking GM in the game!

Chisox003
12-14-2005, 01:30 AM
Just as I was studying for finals!

I honestly don't know how I've been able to get good grades this semester.:o::cool:
I feel ya...

I was just in the middle of studying and said to myself "Why not check out WSI, see what's happening"

Low and behold....

I'm STILL catching up from Soxtober, and now this 7 hours before my first final....Damn you White Sox!

Corlose 15
12-14-2005, 01:30 AM
I'm not sure about this move, I don't mind getting rid of Duque but I have a feeling Young is going to be a stud. I dunno, lets see what KW has in mind.

Realist
12-14-2005, 01:31 AM
Yeah thats what we need an overpayed 30yo CF who creates a logjam for the next 5 years in our system.

I only care about 2006. Prospects shmospects.

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 01:32 AM
The World Series champion Chicago White Sox (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/teams/page/CHW) are on the verge of acquiring starting pitcher Javier Vazquez (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/8148) from Arizona (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/teams/page/ARI) for pitcher Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/11151), a minor-league outfielder expected to be Chris Young and another pitcher, believed to be a reliever, according to CBS SportsLine.com sources.

BTW, I just noticed that the CBS Sportsline reports adds another pitcher, believed to be a reliever, into the deal. It's likely no one significant, but worth noting. Tomorrow (later today, technically) will be a fun day. It's Wednesday after all, so you knew it would go down tomorrow.

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 01:32 AM
I feel ya...

I was just in the middle of studying and said to myself "Why not check out WSI, see what's happening"

Low and behold....

I'm STILL catching up from Soxtober, and now this 7 hours before my first final....Damn you White Sox!

LOL. I got one more on Thursday that I'm already prepared to smoke, and then I'm done. So I'm just gonna sit here and watch this thread grow. :cool:

Oh, and good luck to you. :D:

Corlose 15
12-14-2005, 01:33 AM
Yeah thats what we need an overpayed 30yo CF who creates a logjam for the next 5 years in our system.

If KW keeps making deals there won't be any OF left.:redneck

I'm not a fan of Damon, he has no arm and he's also a Boras client so I can't see the Sox getting him. That and the fact that the front office seems content to let Anderson/Owens/Mackowiak duke it out for CF.

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 01:33 AM
I only care about 2006. Prospects shmospects.

Precisely. We must defend the castle.

We have outfield prospects up the *** anyway.

Chisox003
12-14-2005, 01:35 AM
LOL. I got one more on Thursday that I'm already prepared to smoke, and then I'm done. So I'm just gonna sit here and watch this thread grow. :cool:

Oh, and good luck to you. :D:
This 7:30 AM sociology test tomorrow is going to be a swift kick to the groin...

Even worse, I got 2 more, 1 on thursday and 1 on friday...

White Sox first though...I have my priorities

:gulp:

HotelWhiteSox
12-14-2005, 01:35 AM
Garland for Griffey, you heard it here first

:hawk

Where's he gonna...oh yeah

Ohhhh, I got it now, it's going to be Garland to get Rowand back. That suave KW

Scottiehaswheels
12-14-2005, 01:35 AM
BTW, I just noticed that the CBS Sportsline reports adds another pitcher, believed to be a reliever, into the deal. It's likely no one significant, but worth noting.

Adkins perhaps?

voodoochile
12-14-2005, 01:35 AM
If KW can land Vasquez for El Duque he deserves a lifetime contract even if he has to throw in Young or almost any other minor leaguer.

Buehrle, Garcia, Contreras, Vasquez, Garland and McCarthy? :drool:

Who wants a piece of me? Come one come all... Sox fans unite! We are legion! We are strong!

We are...

:churrosarmy:

Realist
12-14-2005, 01:35 AM
If KW keeps making deals there won't be any OF left.:redneck

I'm not a fan of Damon, he has no arm and he's also a Boras client so I can't see the Sox getting him. That and the fact that the front office seems content to let Anderson/Owens/Mackowiak duke it out for CF.

That "Boras client" thingy is an immense hurtle, but stranger things have happened.

SoxSpeed22
12-14-2005, 01:36 AM
It's good to have more starting pitching, the best just got better.
If Vasquez can turn things around, we have a ****in' core of pitching. That's obviously the upside.
The only thing I worry about is how Contreras is gonna handle not having El Duque around. Vasquez is Puerto Rican, but that's not the same. The other thing, is 'what to do with McCarthy?' KW knows what he's doing.

sean
12-14-2005, 01:36 AM
I like the move, gets rid of el duque and his salary. however, with McCarthy, that's 6 starting pitchers. I don't see Mccarthy being too happy spending 06 in AAA or the pen. Kenny has to have something up his sleave, but I don't know. Lot of crazy moves so far thus offseason, nothing would really surprise me.
As exciting as a follow up move would be, I wouldn't mind having McCarthy as a reliever/spot starter just in the case that someone gets hurt. The rotation was pretty healthy last year, it's going to be tough to do that again.

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 01:37 AM
Just a thought, as we watch this thread continue to grow. Any chance KW explores a Ken Griffey Jr. trade again? You know that when KW wants a guy he is always exploring ways to get that guy. Well, he seems to want Griffey. Perhaps he tries to re-open KGJ talks by offering up Garland, Contreras or Vazquez. This trade certainly opens the door for a lot of speculation.

hose
12-14-2005, 01:37 AM
One good aspect about Vasquez is that he's a strikeout pitcher.... We really don't have one of those on our staff in the 9K/9 ratio... Contreras is closest but... Might be a good thing to allow our defense a day to semi-relax once in awhile...

His one year in the AL was pretty crappy . Vazquez wasn't quite the strike out pitcher with the Yankees.

Not making excuses for him , but I thought he wasn't 100% healthy w/NY. I could be mistaken but that's what I seem to recall.

kittle42
12-14-2005, 01:37 AM
It's good to have more starting pitching, the best just got better.
If Vasquez can turn things around, we have a ****in' core of pitching. That's obviously the upside.
The only thing I worry about is how Contreras is gonna handle not having El Duque around. Vasquez is Puerto Rican, but that's not the same.

Yeah. It was really tough on Iguchi's performance when Takatsu left. :rolleyes:

voodoochile
12-14-2005, 01:38 AM
Is there any chance this trade finalizes before morning? If not, it's going to be a whole bunch of woohoo and not much substance.

Realist
12-14-2005, 01:38 AM
:reinsy
"You can never have too much pitching so... holy smokes! We may have too much pitching!"

Chisox003
12-14-2005, 01:38 AM
Just a thought, as we watch this thread continue to grow. Any chance KW explores a Ken Griffey Jr. trade again? You know that when KW wants a guy he is always exploring ways to get that guy. Well, he seems to want Griffey. Perhaps he tries to re-open KGJ talks by offering up Garland, Contreras or Vazquez. This trade certainly opens the door for a lot of speculation.
No kidding...

This is turning into my MVP franchise...:o: :cool:

Exit_Only
12-14-2005, 01:38 AM
Grrr, I've supported KW with all his moves, but I don't like this one. Vazquez is crap, you can't go by his Montreal career. Plus he wants to be on the East Coast, he'd just complain the whole time. I'd rather have 1 year of Garland than 3+ of the piece of crap that is Javier Vazquez. Not to mention that you're bringing him into a hitter friendly park. Then you add Young into the equation, no thanks. If it was him for El Duque straight up, with Vazquez pitching in the bullpen, I wouldn't mind, but these are clearly not the intentions. Unless he can swing someone for someone worthwile, something I'm not really seeing, I don't really like this. I'll reserve judgment since there will probably be another move on the way, but it sucks as is

I don't know much about Vazquez, but I question why KW would trade a top prospect for him since the Sox already have 6 starting pitchers--one of whom is set to make league minimum. I don't know why KW would feel the need to trade a top prospect for a pitcher who will make 11.5 and 12.5 million over the next two seasons.

Though if this does bring us Miguel Tejada through a trade of Jon Garland+Uribe, I'd no longer wonder what KW is thinking.

mdep524
12-14-2005, 01:39 AM
Wow. I really don't know what to say to this. Chris Young?? Someone's gotta give KW a dictionary for Christmas and bookmark and highlight the page with the word "leverage."

On the surface, trading a top prospect for a struggling pitcher who demanded a trade when you already have 5 starters is a shaky move at best. BUT... let's see what KW has up his sleeve. Abreu? Tejada?? Crawford??? Ichiro????... each more unlikely than the one before!!

SoxSpeed22
12-14-2005, 01:40 AM
Yeah. It was really tough on Iguchi's performance when Takatsu left. :rolleyes:The relationship between Iguchi and Takatsu was clearly not the same as the one between Contreras and Hernandez.

Hagan
12-14-2005, 01:40 AM
This is such a bad trade. Vazquez is not a good pitcher. This is now his 4th team in 4 years and his already huge home runs against is just going to go up. Vazquez a pitcher who demanded to be traded for young is such a bad deal.

gowhitesox
12-14-2005, 01:41 AM
At least there is credibility to this one. Not just one of those things that people make up. It makes some sense but keep the starting rotation in tact.

Tragg
12-14-2005, 01:42 AM
This move would be incredible!!!!!!!! That means we have 6 awesome pitchers, which means we can trade one either for a center fielder or bullpen help. kenny Williams is God!!!! Deal set to be announced later today per mlb.com:supernana: :supernana: :supernana:
NOOOO!
Don't trade away our best prospect; just don't do it.
A lifetime ERA above 4; an ERA last year at 4.42 against national league competition.
And if we must make such a deal, do what every other team does - DO NOT trade your top prospect.

That's a good trade??????:mad:

santo=dorf
12-14-2005, 01:42 AM
Just want to make one comment; it's Vazquez. :D:

Man, I'm going to look forward to seeing what Young does, but I said the same thing about Reed and Olivo.:cool:

voodoochile
12-14-2005, 01:43 AM
NOOOO!
Don't trade away our best prospect; just don't do it.
A lifetime ERA above 4; an ERA last year at 4.42 against national league competition.
And if we must make such a deal, do what every other team does - DO NOT trade your top prospect.

That's a good trade??????:mad:

The Sox two top prospects are McCarthy and Anderson. Young is behind them both.

Realist
12-14-2005, 01:44 AM
NOOOO!
Don't trade away our best prospect; just don't do it.
A lifetime ERA above 4; an ERA last year at 4.42 against national league competition.
And if we must make such a deal, do what every other team does - DO NOT trade your top prospect.

That's a good trade??????:mad:

Yeah, we still have never recovered from losing Jeremy Reed.

ilsox7
12-14-2005, 01:44 AM
This 7:30 AM sociology test tomorrow is going to be a swift kick to the groin...

Even worse, I got 2 more, 1 on thursday and 1 on friday...

White Sox first though...I have my priorities

:gulp:

Yea. This sucks. I have a Property exam at 9 that accounts for my entire grade. Sure glad I took a 2 hour nap tonight as it needs to get me thru the exam. And my all night of studying.

Chisox003
12-14-2005, 01:44 AM
NOOOO!
Don't trade away our best prospect; just don't do it.
A lifetime ERA above 4; an ERA last year at 4.42 against national league competition.
And if we must make such a deal, do what every other team does - DO NOT trade your top prospect.

That's a good trade??????:mad:
You don't know what else KW has planned here....

If this somehow turns into Miggy Tejada or someone else, I'm pretty sure it will be worth it...

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, Kenny is clearly not done.

Oh, and I love this trade .... Any of our now 6 starting pitchers is better than any other 1-5 in all of baseball

Not bad

CHISOXFAN13
12-14-2005, 01:44 AM
This is such a bad trade. Vazquez is not a good pitcher. This is now his 4th team in 4 years and his already huge home runs against is just going to go up. Vazquez a pitcher who demanded to be traded for young is such a bad deal.
Contreras sucked too, until Cooper worked with him. I'll look forward to seeing what Coop can do with Vazquez.Every move Kenny made last year turned to gold and thus far this offseason, he has done an amazing job of improving the world champs.I trust Kenny. Those of you who don't, aren't paying much attention.

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 01:44 AM
The MLB article seems to suggest all our starters will be kept. To me, that is a big mistake. Now that we've acquired Vazquez locked, it would ne prudent to lock up Contreras/Garland and acquire a dynamic hitter. I understand our rotatioon underwent tremendous stress last year, but at this point you have to keep pushing, IMO. KW can not stand pat with 6 starters when SP is incredibly valuable at this time.

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 01:46 AM
This is such a bad trade. Vazquez is not a good pitcher. This is now his 4th team in 4 years and his already huge home runs against is just going to go up. Vazquez a pitcher who demanded to be traded for young is such a bad deal.

No offense, but you just described, except for the 4 teams bit, Jose Contreras before he came to the Sox. What if KW can swing Tejada?

Tavarin
12-14-2005, 01:47 AM
Yeah, we still have never recovered from losing Jeremy Reed.

But the difference is that Vazquez is a flyball pitcher coming to the Cell, that's never a good idea

Realist
12-14-2005, 01:48 AM
Tejada? I love the guy, but do we really need a shortstop more than a centerfielder? :?:

voodoochile
12-14-2005, 01:48 AM
But the difference is that Vazquez is a flyball pitcher coming to the Cell, that's never a good idea

So was Garcia wasn't he?

koch44
12-14-2005, 01:49 AM
Tejada? I love the guy, but do we really need a shortstop more than a centerfielder? :?:

Our offense would be good enough, to where it wouldn't matter who the centerfielder was.

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 01:49 AM
Contreras sucked too, until Cooper worked with him. I'll look forward to seeing what Coop can do with Vazquez.Every move Kenny made last year turned to gold and thus far this offseason, he has done an amazing job of improving the world champs.I trust Kenny. Those of you who don't, aren't paying much attention.

No, there are still some people who know more about baseball than Kenny.

:KW
I still don't care...

Realist
12-14-2005, 01:51 AM
But the difference is that Vazquez is a flyball pitcher coming to the Cell, that's never a good idea

I'm definitely concerned about that too, but isn't that what many were saying about Garcia? I know Freddie is more effective on the road, but he didn't exactly kill us at home.

voodoochile
12-14-2005, 01:52 AM
Tejada? I love the guy, but do we really need a shortstop more than a centerfielder? :?:

Yes, but we need Tejada's bat more than we need to upgrade CF. Tejada changes the offense so dramatically. He's a huge impact player. It's Rowand for Thome all over again.

Pods
Gooch
Tejada
Thome
Konerko
Dye... (having a hard time typing. I am starting to giggle non-stop :D: )
Pierzynski
Crede
Who Cares... er I mean... Anderson...

With Mackowiak waiting in the wings if Crede gets injured or Anderson turns into a complete bust and starts hitting .150...

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 01:52 AM
Yes, but we need Tejada's bat more than we need to upgrade CF. Tejada changes the offense so dramatically. He's a huge impact player. It's Rowand for Thome all over again.

Pods
Gooch
Tejada
Thome
Konerko
Dye... (having a hard time typing. I am starting to giggle non-stop :D: )
Pierzynski
Crede
Who Cares... er I mean... Anderson...

With Mackowiak waiting in the wings if Crede gets injured or Anderson turns into a complete bust and starts hitting .150...

DO IT

KENNYYYYYYYYY

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 01:53 AM
I'm definitely concerned about that too, but isn't that what many were saying about Garcia? I know Freddie is more effective on the road, but he didn't exactly kill us at home.

Vazquez is a flat-out stud if you just look at amount of talent. Remember how he looked against us in pinstripes in early '04 I believe it was? At his best, he's a Cy Young candidate. And we have a good history of getting the most out of newcomers who'd been struggling in another uniform, so...

Realist
12-14-2005, 01:54 AM
Yes, but we need Tejada's bat more than we need to upgrade CF. Tejada changes the offense so dramatically. He's a huge impact player. It's Rowand for Thome all over again.

Pods
Gooch
Tejada
Thome
Konerko
Dye... (having a hard time typing. I am starting to giggle non-stop :D: )
Pierzynski
Crede
Who Cares... er I mean... Anderson...

With Mackowiak waiting in the wings if Crede gets injured or Anderson turns into a complete bust and starts hitting .150...

Okay. I see what you mean. It probably doesn't help that I just knocked off a 2 litre of Uribe Kool-Aid.

Tavarin
12-14-2005, 01:55 AM
So was Garcia wasn't he?

Garcia maxed out on 31 homers, which is still less than the 35 and 33 Vazquez has had the last 2 years. He had allowed only 8 HR in the 107 innings before the Sox acquired him, which is a lot better than the 31 HR in 201 1/3 IP innings he had the previous year. That, along with the drop in HR/IP since he came to Chicago leads me to believe that he figured out his problem.

If Cooper can get back the Vazquez of 2003, or even 2001, this is a great deal. But considering the last two seasons Vazquez has had, I'm not too confident in that happening.

santo=dorf
12-14-2005, 01:55 AM
Yes, but we need Tejada's bat more than we need to upgrade CF. Tejada changes the offense so dramatically. He's a huge impact player. It's Rowand for Thome all over again.

Pods
Gooch
Tejada
Thome
Konerko
Dye... (having a hard time typing. I am starting to giggle non-stop :D: )
Pierzynski
Crede
Who Cares... er I mean... Anderson...

With Mackowiak waiting in the wings if Crede gets injured or Anderson turns into a complete bust and starts hitting .150...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_115135.jpg
"Oooh, Oooh, oooh!!! Can I play center instead?"

CHISOXFAN13
12-14-2005, 01:55 AM
Yes, but we need Tejada's bat more than we need to upgrade CF. Tejada changes the offense so dramatically. He's a huge impact player. It's Rowand for Thome all over again.

Pods
Gooch
Tejada
Thome
Konerko
Dye... (having a hard time typing. I am starting to giggle non-stop :D: )
Pierzynski
Crede
Who Cares... er I mean... Anderson...

With Mackowiak waiting in the wings if Crede gets injured or Anderson turns into a complete bust and starts hitting .150...
It's well past the time when I should have been sleeping, but posts like this are the reason why I won't be able to sleep.Oh my, what a lineup that would be!

hose
12-14-2005, 01:56 AM
Just want to make one comment; it's Vazquez. :D:


As long as Kenny knows it's Vazquez and not Vasquez.:rolleyes:

Barry - Berry:?: :o:

Unregistered
12-14-2005, 01:56 AM
I don't want to judge this move until all the final pieces are in place, but getting Vazquez just does nothing for me. Unless, as people are saying, this is a move to get a big bat like Tejada, trading a so-so pitcher (Duque) and one of our best prospects for an overpriced so-so pitcher makes no sense. It doesn't really address any needs and seems like an even swap before Young enters the equation, considering we'd be taking on his salary.

We've been lucky so far with the amount of talented prospects we've traded becoming non-factors in deals - eventually we're gonna get burned and trade a future superstar if we give up the farm for marginal, overpriced players.

End of the day, though, KW is the GM of the World Champions and I'm just a dude behind a keyboard. I trust in the man. :D:

Tavarin
12-14-2005, 01:56 AM
Vazquez is a flat-out stud if you just look at amount of talent. Remember how he looked against us in pinstripes in early '04 I believe it was? At his best, he's a Cy Young candidate. And we have a good history of getting the most out of newcomers who'd been struggling in another uniform, so...

He was excellent in 2003, and for the first half of 2004. But something happened after the All Star break, whether it's mental or something like an injury no one really knows.

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 01:58 AM
Yes, but we need Tejada's bat more than we need to upgrade CF. Tejada changes the offense so dramatically. He's a huge impact player. It's Rowand for Thome all over again.

Pods
Gooch
Tejada
Thome
Konerko
Dye... (having a hard time typing. I am starting to giggle non-stop :D: )
Pierzynski
Crede
Who Cares... er I mean... Anderson...

With Mackowiak waiting in the wings if Crede gets injured or Anderson turns into a complete bust and starts hitting .150...

This is a losing side to take through and through, but I'm pretty content with Uribe for the price. Is this the kind of team for Tejadas? He's the best shortstop bar none, but that's a lot of money tied up in one guy and after getting Thome, our offensive needs are questionable. Honestly, I'd be happy going with the lineup we've got now, with Anderson starting. If there's to be an offensive upgrade though, all we really need is a center fielder.

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 02:01 AM
You know what will be funny? Reading all the posts once this trade goes down from people complaining about the Sox trading the best prospect we've ever had and knowing that about 90% of these posts will come from people who have never seen Chris Young play and probably wouldn't recognize him if he was walking down the street.

voodoochile
12-14-2005, 02:01 AM
This is a losing side to take through and through, but I'm pretty content with Uribe for the price. Is this the kind of team for Tejadas? He's the best shortstop bar none, but that's a lot of money tied up in one guy and after getting Thome, our offensive needs are questionable. Honestly, I'd be happy going with the lineup we've got now, with Anderson starting. If there's to be an offensive upgrade though, all we really need is a center fielder.

Money shmoney. If the Sox were to complete these two trades, the ballpark will be sold out for the year the day after the single game tickets go on sale.

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 02:01 AM
This is a losing side to take through and through, but I'm pretty content with Uribe for the price. Is this the kind of team for Tejadas? He's the best shortstop bar none, but that's a lot of money tied up in one guy and after getting Thome, our offensive needs are questionable. Honestly, I'd be happy going with the lineup we've got now, with Anderson starting. If there's to be an offensive upgrade though, all we really need is a center fielder.

I feel you but don't you feel like we HAVE to get value for JG, at this point? Either in CF or elsewhere?

ChiWhiteSox1337
12-14-2005, 02:02 AM
Wow..I was just about to go to bed so I checked WSI for one last time(I'm sure this is the same for most of you) and now that I've read this read I can't sleep. I'm just thinking of how awesome the line up would be with Tejada if KW tries to get him after this trade....

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 02:02 AM
You know what will be funny? Reading all the posts once this trade goes down from people complaining about the Sox trading the best prospect we've ever had and knowing that about 90% of these posts will come from people who have never seen Chris Young play and probably wouldn't recognize him if he was walking down the street.

True. Where's Randar? He needs to lay down the law here.

hose
12-14-2005, 02:03 AM
I'm happy with Juan at ss.

If were making up trades then how about Garland, Crede, El Duque, and Young for Vazques and Troy Glaus.:cool:

Realist
12-14-2005, 02:03 AM
You know what will be funny? Reading all the posts once this trade goes down from people complaining about the Sox trading the best prospect we've ever had and knowing that about 90% of these posts will come from people who have never seen Chris Young play and probably wouldn't recognize him if he was walking down the street.

God knows that wouldn't be a first in the history of WSI.

mdep524
12-14-2005, 02:03 AM
Just have to say... talking about Tejada, Abreu, Crawford, Griffey, etc. and having it all be credible, is the most insanely exciting fantasy hot stove off season EVER!! :D: Have to give KW credit for making that possible.

voodoochile
12-14-2005, 02:04 AM
True. Where's Randar? He needs to lay down the law here.

Crappy Routes
Have you actually seen him play?
Skills not stats
Dumbass
Moron


Did I miss anything?:tongue:

hawkeyesox17
12-14-2005, 02:04 AM
Like everybody else, I am in wait and see mode and hoping that leads to the Tejada trade. If there is no follow up move, I would be puzzled, but right now, Kenny is up there with Dikta where he can do no wrong.

Gotta love the fact that the Sox can just end my study session with a trade like this. Damn this new fangled internet and all of its information!!

Exit_Only
12-14-2005, 02:06 AM
So was Garcia wasn't he?
Maybe that's why Freddy G can't win at home.

Exit_Only
12-14-2005, 02:07 AM
As long as Kenny knows it's Vazquez and not Vasquez.:rolleyes:

Barry - Berry:?: :o:

:rolling:

KW has come a long way.

Realist
12-14-2005, 02:08 AM
... Kenny is up there with Dikta where he can do no wrong.



Ditka being wrong. Oh so very very wrong. (http://www.orange32.com/grabowski/)

CLR01
12-14-2005, 02:09 AM
Crappy Routes
Have you actually seen him play?
Skills not stats
Dumbass
Moron


Did I miss anything?:tongue:


We are talking Sox not Bears. :neener:

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 02:10 AM
As long as Kenny knows it's Vazquez and not Vasquez.:rolleyes:

Barry - Berry:?: :o:

:KW
"I am pleased to announce that our addition of Vazquez has allowed us to make another move. I followed TONY23's suggestion and traded Garland for Tejeda. Please welcome Robinson Tejada to the White Sox."

:wink: :D:

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 02:13 AM
Money shmoney. If the Sox were to complete these two trades, the ballpark will be sold out for the year the day after the single game tickets go on sale.
Yeah, lord knows it ain't my money. I'll shut up the day Tejada puts on a black jersey. If they think they can keep him around and still retain that pitching staff in the coming years, well they know better than I do. :dunno:

Corlose 15
12-14-2005, 02:13 AM
Call me crazy but I don't think Tejada is going to be traded. Especially since he came out and said he wasn't requesting a trade.

Although he could just be bsing to make himself look better.:D:

hawkeyesox17
12-14-2005, 02:13 AM
Ditka being wrong. Oh so very very wrong. (http://www.orange32.com/grabowski/)

touche, my friend, touche :cool:

fquaye149
12-14-2005, 02:14 AM
Money shmoney. If the Sox were to complete these two trades, the ballpark will be sold out for the year the day after the single game tickets go on sale.

Ban him !!!!!:tongue:

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 02:14 AM
Ditka being wrong. Oh so very very wrong. (http://www.orange32.com/grabowski/)

I know what that is and I'm not opening it. :cool:

Realist
12-14-2005, 02:17 AM
I know what that is and I'm not opening it. :cool:

Open it and then minimize it while you follow this thead. I mean to tell ya that it makes for one hell of a surreal soundtrack.

hose
12-14-2005, 02:18 AM
Ban him !!!!!:tongue:

alright Jav do your duty.

I know Voodoo has been working out so get some back up.:redneck

voodoochile
12-14-2005, 02:18 AM
Yeah, lord knows it ain't my money. I'll shut up the day Tejada puts on a black jersey. If they think they can keep him around and still retain that pitching staff in the coming years, well they know better than I do. :dunno:

The days of the Sox having money problems are over for the foreseeable future, IMO. They have at least 5 years to ride this wave. If they keep a winner on the field and at least appear to be playoff worthy/pennant contenders to start every season they will be drawing more than enough fans to allow them to spend in the $100M range easily. Yes, player prices are on the rise again, but the Sox are going to finally be the big money franchise we all expected from them lo these many years.

Let the rest of the ALC worry about it, Sox are playing with the big boys now...

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 02:20 AM
Open it and then minimize it while you follow this thead. I mean to tell ya that it makes for one hell of a surreal soundtrack.

LMAO. :roflmao::rolling::party:

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 02:20 AM
Some possible bats for Garland + postion player replaced (in no order):

Tejada
Abreu
Griffey
Vernon Wells
Bonds
Ichiro

Unregistered
12-14-2005, 02:22 AM
:tomatoaward

:happybday

shes
12-14-2005, 02:22 AM
I know a lot of you are excited, but Vazquez isn't the ace a lot of people seem to think he is. He's inconsistent and has a career 4.28 ERA playing mostly in the NL -- that translates to an ERA in the high 4s in the AL. He's coming off 2 subpar seasons. And he's making a ton of money. At this point I would not hesitate to call him our sixth best starter.

You can talk about his talent and stuff all you want, but that does absolutely nothing for me. Buehrle has the worst stuff on our staff and he's our best pitcher and one of the best in the game.

It's not that I'm overly concerned about losing Young, talented as he might be, it's the fact that this trade doesn't do much to help the Sox and as a result seems like a deal for the sake of making a deal. Of course, that probably means KW isn't done. Garland is likely to be the one dealt and if it means Tejada at short or Crawford in center, I'll be incredibly happy. If this is it, however, my opinion is that it's a bit of a mistake.

hose
12-14-2005, 02:22 AM
Open it and then minimize it while you follow this thead. I mean to tell ya that it makes for one hell of a surreal soundtrack.

Thanks.....that's about the last thing I want to see before I hit the sack.:D:

KRS1
12-14-2005, 02:23 AM
Some possible bats for Garland + postion player replaced (in no order):

Tejada
Abreu
Griffey
Vernon Wells
Bonds
Ichiro

Dont forget Crawford

Hagan
12-14-2005, 02:23 AM
Contreras sucked too, until Cooper worked with him. I'll look forward to seeing what Coop can do with Vazquez.Every move Kenny made last year turned to gold and thus far this offseason, he has done an amazing job of improving the world champs.I trust Kenny. Those of you who don't, aren't paying much attention.

Also that was Contrera's his first full year in the majors and joses movement on his pitches is a better than vazquez. It took over a year for Contreras to start pitching well consistanly for half a year. Who knows if he is going to keep that up next year. Vazquez is coming from the NL where he struggled in a bigger park than US cellular. This deal is going to clearly set up some other deal involving one of our starter so we will see what happens, but as of right now if we keep vazquez and do nothing this would be a horrible deal.

TheOldRoman
12-14-2005, 02:24 AM
True. Where's Randar? He needs to lay down the law here. Actually, I am pretty sure Randar said he wouldn't trade Young unless it was for an unbelievable player like Pujols or Teixeira. I don't know anything about prospects, so I defer to those who do.

And above all else, I defer to the sig.

kittle42
12-14-2005, 02:24 AM
Also that was Contrera's his first full year in the majors and joses movement on his pitches is a better than vazquez.

Oh...my....:o:

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 02:27 AM
Dont forget Crawford

JG for Crawford? Sorry, but I will forget him.

KRS1
12-14-2005, 02:27 AM
Also that was Contrera's his first full year in the majors and joses movement on his pitches is a better than vazquez. It took over a year for Contreras to start pitching well consistanly for half a year. Who knows if he is going to keep that up next year. Vazquez is coming from the NL where he struggled in a bigger park than US cellular. This deal is going to clearly set up some other deal involving one of our starter so we will see what happens, but as of right now if we keep vazquez and do nothing this would be a horrible deal.

I think the pinpoint moment when Jose started to dominate corralates with his throwing of that sinker/2-seamer right before the AS break. Now if javi can learn that pitch he could be nasty.

voodoochile
12-14-2005, 02:28 AM
Oh...my....:o:

Breathe, Kittle... just breathe... :tongue:

Surprised you missed the lack of an apostrophe in the word "joses" later in the same sentence, but maybe I shouldn't mention it as your blood pressure is probably already through the roof...

Realist
12-14-2005, 02:29 AM
Negra Modelo ---> :gulp:

TheOldRoman
12-14-2005, 02:34 AM
Kenny is not done. Obviously someone will be moved. I would not be surprised to see Vazquez shipped to another team. The Orioles really want him. Obviously we wouldn't be able to get Tejada for Vazquez, but we might be able to get someone of value from an eastcoast team.

As for Tejada, I would bet my house he isn't going anywhere. He is an incredible player. He is the kinds of superstar that draws the fairweather fans. The Orioles are sinking into **** already, and it would be a really dumb move to dump him two years into his contract. If the Orioles win 70 and the Nats win 85 (possible) next year, you can throw dirt on Baltimore. No way they do this. Why would they make the trade, anyway? Garland is great, but he is only under contract for one year. They dont need to get rid of Tejada.

DSpivack
12-14-2005, 02:35 AM
I'm not criticizing this trade, but it does make me a little nervous. Prospects are just that, but I think Young will end up better than Anderson, Sweeney, Owens, et al.

I expect Don Cooper to work with Vazquez and try to bring him back to what he was on the Expos. That won't be easy.

This deal makes zero sense in my head unless another deal is on the way. Kenny Williams obviously knows what he is doing. It will be interesting to see what eventually pans out. Good to know it's right in the middle of finals. :tongue:

MERPER
12-14-2005, 02:38 AM
Sox are becoming a powerhouse.... can never have enough pitching... prospects are in place to make the major league team better and now KW has all the cards in negotiations with other teams and Garland/Contreras as he can sit on 6 very good pitchers or hold off for a trade of his liking...

Pitching is at a premium when you consider a sub.500 pitcher making 11 mill per like Burnett...

KW is a genius.... and may I throw out an interesting name that might be available?

MIGUEL CABRERA.... marlins firesale... pitching could get it done.... a good friend of Ozzie's...

Basically with the nams that are being thrown around, the Sox can realistically get anyone they want...

We are becoming a real force and also a Yankee refugee pitcher camp...:supernana: :)

KRS1
12-14-2005, 02:38 AM
Just got an e-mail back from my boss, who's a season ticket holder for the D-backs, I got 25 games on hold so I can watch Young rove the outfield down here.

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 02:41 AM
Just got an e-mail back from my boss, who's a season ticket holder for the D-backs, I got 25 games on hold so I can watch Young rove the outfield down here.

We're all so jealous. :rolleyes:

You go do that. We'll just sit here and watch the defending World Series champions.

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 02:42 AM
KW is a genius.... and may I throw out an interesting name that might be available?

MIGUEL CABRERA.... marlins firesale... pitching could get it done.... a good friend of Ozzie's...



Yes, you may. :drool:

Basically anyone not named Pujols and who is even remotely considered for being shopped can don the silver and black in '06.

ChiSoxLifer
12-14-2005, 02:48 AM
This 7:30 AM sociology test tomorrow is going to be a swift kick to the groin...

Even worse, I got 2 more, 1 on thursday and 1 on friday...

White Sox first though...I have my priorities

:gulp:

Ten years later and neither sociology nor anthropology has done anything for me except while playing trivial pursuit. The college curriculum is designed to keep you in school and take your money.

KRS1
12-14-2005, 02:49 AM
We're all so jealous. :rolleyes:

You go do that. We'll just sit here and watch the defending World Series champions.

Hey dont get mad, Ill still fly up there and see 5 games and of course Ill have extra innings on my TV, but now I have a chance to see my favorite prospect play any time I want in person. I guess AZ is now my second favorite team especially since the Marlins had their firesale.

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 02:49 AM
I refreshed for this /\?

:D::wink:

getonbckthr
12-14-2005, 02:50 AM
Yes, you may. :drool:

Basically anyone not named Pujols and who is even remotely considered for being shopped can don the silver and black in '06.
Does that mean Manny as well??

HomeFish
12-14-2005, 02:51 AM
Vazquez would be a mighty fine #5 starter if this is true.

getonbckthr
12-14-2005, 02:51 AM
What about Garland and Anderson for Vernon Wells??

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 02:52 AM
What about Garland and Anderson for Vernon Wells??

We have a winner!

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 02:58 AM
Why is everyone acting like Vasquez is the second coming of Ed ****ing Walsh! Vasquez is not a #1 starter, he is not even a good #5 starter!

HotelWhiteSox
12-14-2005, 02:59 AM
The Bluejays' offense is already anemic, I don't think they want to trade Wells

Realist
12-14-2005, 02:59 AM
Podsednik
Damon
Tejada
Konerko
Thome
Dye
Iguchi
Pierzynski
Crede
Buehrle
Contreras
Vazquez
Garcia
McCarthyWhat the hell... it's late. Let me dream a little.

Exit_Only
12-14-2005, 03:00 AM
Why is everyone acting like Vasquez is the second coming of Ed ****ing Walsh! Vasquez is not a #1 starter, he is not even a good #5 starter!

Yeah, I think you have a point. Didn't the 2005 Sox light Vazquez up for like 10 runs in an inning? Or, at least started that inning.

Scottiehaswheels
12-14-2005, 03:01 AM
Reporting on Rotoworld via Newday is the reliever to be included in trade is Vizcaino..... Diamondbacks better give us some money for all that...

TheOldRoman
12-14-2005, 03:01 AM
Why is everyone acting like Vasquez is the second coming of Ed ****ing Walsh! Vasquez is not a #1 starter, he is not even a good #5 starter!
The same could have been said (and was said) about Contreras in July of 04. Like Contreras, he has unbelievable stuff, and the ability to become a dominant pitcher. Also like Contreras, he apparently has some mental issues. Contreras is now one of the best pitchers in baseball. If the deal goes down and we end up keeping Vazquez, I have full faith that Coop will help him immensely.

The Dude
12-14-2005, 03:02 AM
Hey dont get mad, Ill still fly up there and see 5 games and of course Ill have extra innings on my TV, but now I have a chance to see my favorite prospect play any time I want in person. I guess AZ is now my second favorite team especially since the Marlins had their firesale.
Yeah you go have fun with your favorite prospect! I know i had mine with the numerous greats that the great farm system of the sox have produced throughout the years. I mean come on...most of our 2005 World Championship team was made up of farmhands from our org! Buehrle, Rowand, Crede, Thomas.........did i miss anyone???

TheOldRoman
12-14-2005, 03:02 AM
Yeah, I think you have a point. Didn't the 2005 Sox light Vazquez up for like 10 runs in an inning? Or, at least started that inning.
IIRC, that was the immortal Russ Ortiz.

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 03:03 AM
Yeah, I think you have a point. Didn't the 2005 Sox light Vazquez up for like 10 runs in an inning? Or, at least started that inning.

No. Vazquez threw 8 innings against us, allowing 3 runs on 7 hits and a walk, striking out 10. You are thinking of Russ Ortiz.

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 03:04 AM
It's 2AM and I literally can't go to sleep b/c I NEED to know the financial details as well as the phantom "relief pitcher"!!! :D:

Fantosme
12-14-2005, 03:04 AM
Yeah, I think you have a point. Didn't the 2005 Sox light Vazquez up for like 10 runs in an inning? Or, at least started that inning.
It was Ortiz (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=250615104)

Fantosme
12-14-2005, 03:05 AM
It's 2AM and I literally can't go to sleep b/c I NEED to know the financial details as well as the phantom "relief pitcher"!!! :D:

Newsday says the RP is Vizcaino.

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 03:05 AM
Vazquez makes 11.5 million dollars next year, how does this make any sense at all from an economic stand point? Vasquez has the opporunity to be good, he also has the opportunity to be Jaime Navarro, for every Contreras there are 5 Navarros. If He sucks next year we are still stuck for another 12.5 million the next year, this a bigger risk than signing Frank Thomas to play center field next year.

KRS1
12-14-2005, 03:06 AM
Reporting on Rotoworld via Newday is the reliever to be included in trade is Vizcaino..... Diamondbacks better give us some money for all that...

Damn I thought Viz was really gonna have a good year for us. Now we got 2-3 spots to fill in our BP next year, maybe Baj/Tracey + a lefty are in our future. I have to say we did give up a heck of a lot for a pitcher who's downslide the last couple of seasons resembles a sledding accident. I saw Young play in the AFL and saw a stud, I saw Javi this year and saw a dud I guess if you throw out 5 starts he wasnt that bad.

CosmRoks
12-14-2005, 03:06 AM
For the panikers...
We should have all the faith in the world in KW. I think we have the best coaching staff in baseball,whatever problems Vazquez has I'm sure can be worked out,hes got some of the best stuff in the game...who remembers that game in '04 when he totally dominated us? not that one game is the be all end all,but Vazquez has been in almost every Sox trade conversation for like 2 years,KW has a feeling about this guy. Lets trust him,as always and know he's never done dealing.

Scottiehaswheels
12-14-2005, 03:06 AM
It's 2AM and I literally can't go to sleep b/c I NEED to know the financial details as well as the phantom "relief pitcher"!!! :D:

Check out rotoworld...story?coll=nyc-sports-headlines

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 03:06 AM
Newsday says the RP is Vizcaino.

Link?

SouthSide_HitMen
12-14-2005, 03:07 AM
The trade looks OK on the surface. Vazquez does give up plenty of HRers but can strike out many hitters when he is on. He didn't pitch well in his only AL season which is always a concern for pitchers coming over from the NL (see Wright, Clement, Pavano, Johnson, Wells, etc. circa 2005).

I thought Ozzie was in love with Young and was going to give him a chance at the CF job but apparently this was a smoke screen or Kenny's love for Vazquez was greater. Kenny tried to get Vazquez in the past and it appears he finally got his man.

If this is a step for another big deal it would be awesome (Tejada, Abreu). Not big on Griffey who has played 75 games less than Frank Thomas over the past four seasons and cannot hide at the DH spot when he pops his hammy for the 15th or so time with Thome on board.

If there is no followup deal it appears McCarthy will pitch 2006 out of the bullpen or have a final AAA season before taking over for Contreras or Garland in 2007.

Kenny Williams deserves the benefit of the doubt and I look forward to continued under the radar moves heading into Spring Training.

Exit_Only
12-14-2005, 03:07 AM
IIRC, that was the immortal Russ Ortiz.

Ah, you're right. Carry on.

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 03:07 AM
Reporting on Rotoworld via Newday is the reliever to be included in trade is Vizcaino..... Diamondbacks better give us some money for all that...

I had a feeling that Viz might be going as the 3rd player.

So now what happens with the bullpen? Marte and Vizcaino are gone. That leaves only Jenks, Politte, Cotts and Hermanson. Is Kenny going to swing another deal for a reliever or two, or will he hit the free agent market? I'm guessing that he will wait until the arbitration deadline to see who becomes available. That is unless Kenny's plan is to have McCarthy pitch out of the pen for a year until one of either Garland or Contreras leaves after this year. I doubt that Kenny wants McCarthy in the pen for a year.

MHOUSE
12-14-2005, 03:08 AM
This (potential) trade would rock! From everything I've read, it's all but a done deal. How can you argue with it? Vasquez is younger, more talented, and will pitch MUCH better next year than El Duque will. Period. Plus, remember the Ozzie-factor we've seen so far with our hispanic pitchers. Garcia and Contreras both solidified themselves last year for him. I bet you won't hear a peep about the east coast with Ozzie running things. We give up Chris Young, but with Anderson and Owens so close to the majors with Sweeney in the mix too, we could afford to trade one of them. I want to see B-Mac pitch a whole season real bad, but if the Sox are serious about going back-to-back, then we need five proven starters.

Buehrle
Contreras
Garcia
Garland
Vasquez

WOW, that's sick stuff. No arguement, best in baseball top-to-bottom. :gulp::gulp::gulp::gulp::gulp: One for each ace!

Fantosme
12-14-2005, 03:08 AM
Link?

Link (http://www.nynewsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-spmets1214,0,5679986.story?coll=nyc-sports-headlines)

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 03:09 AM
I love KW but does anyone remember the 2005 playoffs? if there is any place on the team we don't need to **** with, it's our rotation, it was the best in the AL last season. This isn't improving an area of need, this is unnecessary tinkering and it has a high risk of burning us when there is no need to even take the chance.

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 03:10 AM
Vazquez makes 11.5 million dollars next year, how does this make any sense at all from an economic stand point? Vasquez has the opporunity to be good, he also has the opportunity to be Jaime Navarro, for every Contreras there are 5 Navarros. If He sucks next year we are still stuck for another 12.5 million the next year, this a bigger risk than signing Frank Thomas to play center field next year.

:rolleyes:

Let the ridiculous posts begin! :o:

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 03:11 AM
:rolleyes:

Let the ridiculous posts begin! :o:

it was sarcasm, the point is that vasquez is a huge, unnecessary, expensive risk.

Corlose 15
12-14-2005, 03:12 AM
Isn't Duque, Vizcaino and Young a ****load to give up for Vazquez?

KRS1
12-14-2005, 03:12 AM
Hermes and his bad back shoulda been the one to go IMO clearing 3 mil off the payroll, his second half was as bad as Vizc's first half and Vizc was pretty steady down the stretch for us.

HomeFish
12-14-2005, 03:13 AM
I had a feeling that Viz might be going as the 3rd player.

So now what happens with the bullpen? Marte and Vizcaino are gone. That leaves only Jenks, Politte, Cotts and Hermanson. Is Kenny going to swing another deal for a reliever or two, or will he hit the free agent market? I'm guessing that he will wait until the arbitration deadline to see who becomes available. That is unless Kenny's plan is to have McCarthy pitch out of the pen for a year until one of either Garland or Contreras leaves after this year. I doubt that Kenny wants McCarthy in the pen for a year.

I think McCarthy has the stuff to be a fine long reliever.

This trade is simply awesome, assuming we manage to scramble another bullpen arm. Vazquez as the #5 starter? With that stuff?

Oh man.

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 03:13 AM
It's a whole ****ing ****load! I wouldn't take him for free, he makes 11.5 million dollars! would you sign Vasquez as a free agent for 11.5 million dollars?!

Scottiehaswheels
12-14-2005, 03:14 AM
I love KW but does anyone remember the 2005 playoffs? if there is any place on the team we don't need to **** with, it's our rotation, it was the best in the AL last season. This isn't improving an area of need, this is unnecessary tinkering and it has a high risk of burning us when there is no need to even take the chance.

Its not any area of need for '06... '07 and beyond it is... getting Vazquez basically locks up another SP through '08 for us.... Plus it would be nice to have some consistency out of the #5 spot instead of platooning guys...

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 03:14 AM
Given the fact that we gave up Young and Viz, we better be getting the amount the Yanks kicked in, at least.

I hope KW can fortify the pen....

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 03:15 AM
Its not any area of need for '06... '07 and beyond it is... getting Vazquez basically locks up another SP through '08 for us.... Plus it would be nice to have some consistency out of the #5 spot instead of platooning guys...

again, for 11.5 mil and 12.5 mil, is Vasquez worth that? is Vasquez worth that -and- Duque -and- Young?

WhiteSoxFan84
12-14-2005, 03:15 AM
Hermes and his bad back shoulda been the one to go IMO clearing 3 mil off the payroll, his second half was as bad as Vizc's first half and Vizc was pretty steady down the stretch for us.

But Hermanson's first half was damn impressive. How many consecutive innings did he go without yielding a run?

You guys are overreacting. This is a good trade. But all I see is doubt and disapproval after almost EVERY Kenny Williams trade. And almost everytime it works out somehow, someway eventually, in our favor.

We basically got Vazquez for Young and Viz. Not a huge loss. McCarthy has already replaced El Duque. And KDub is probably not done yet. He may use Vaz in another trade or he may move Garland for someone we need. I personally prefer Bobby Abreau and he would be the perfect # 2 hitter for us.

HotelWhiteSox
12-14-2005, 03:16 AM
My used jock strap is a lot to give up for Vazquez.

Viz too? I have supported every KW trade to date and I know I should wait it out, but has anyone invented a "This Trade Sucks" tag?

MUsoxfan
12-14-2005, 03:16 AM
It's a whole ****ing ****load! I wouldn't take him for free, he makes 11.5 million dollars! would you sign Vasquez as a free agent for 11.5 million dollars?!

The pitching market is soo skewed right now that even middle of the line pitchers are making a ridiculous amount of money. Look for Garland to get $12m/per and I don't even want to think of what Buehrle will cost when his contract runs up

Hagan
12-14-2005, 03:17 AM
Oh...my....:o:

There is no need to be a jerk I just mistyped Contreras'.

Exit_Only
12-14-2005, 03:18 AM
Hermes and his bad back shoulda been the one to go IMO clearing 3 mil off the payroll, his second half was as bad as Vizc's first half and Vizc was pretty steady down the stretch for us.


Completely disagree.

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 03:18 AM
Does anyone have the details on Vaz's contract? I heard rumblings of a vested year for 08 once he requested a trade.

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 03:18 AM
The pitching market is soo skewed right now that even middle of the line pitchers are making a ridiculous amount of money. Look for Garland to get $12m/per and I don't even want to think of what Buehrle will cost when his contract runs up

This move takes McCarthy out of the rotation, McCarthy makes 11 million less than Vasquez, McCathy is in all likelyhood better than Vasquez.

KRS1
12-14-2005, 03:18 AM
Given the fact that we gave up Young and Viz, we better be getting the amount the Yanks kicked in, at least.

I hope KW can fortify the pen....

Let operation rebuild pen comense,"With my technoledgy I can rebuild you, better, stronger, faster than before.":KW

Fantosme
12-14-2005, 03:19 AM
Does anyone have the details on Vaz's contract? I heard rumblings of a vested year for 08 once he requested a trade.

He's arbitration eligible in 2008 rather than a FA because of the trade demand.

Scottiehaswheels
12-14-2005, 03:21 AM
again, for 11.5 mil and 12.5 mil, is Vasquez worth that? is Vasquez worth that -and- Duque -and- Young?

well you have to look at it from the angle of losing El Duque's and Vizcaino's contracts... roughly 7.5mil in '06 and 8 mil in '07; KW isn't done anyways... We're gonna have to trade someone to get guys to fill out the pen... Unless we bring Bajenaru up full time.. I still think D'Backs eat at least a portion of the contract..

KRS1
12-14-2005, 03:21 AM
Completely disagree.

Valid argument with some really solid points behind them.

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 03:22 AM
well you have to look at it from the angle of losing El Duque's and Vizcaino's contracts... roughly 7.5mil in '06 and 8 mil in '07; KW isn't done anyways... We're gonna have to trade someone to get guys to fill out the pen... Unless we bring Bajenaru up full time.. I still think D'Backs eat at least a portion of the contract..

is Vasquez even worth 5 million a year? and if Vasquez flops, we're still stuck for 12.5 in 2007, Duque isn't contracted in 2007, don't know about Viz.

HomeFish
12-14-2005, 03:23 AM
This move takes McCarthy out of the rotation, McCarthy makes 11 million less than Vasquez, McCathy is in all likelyhood better than Vasquez.

I see. Because we've had a lot of luck rushing young pitchers, right?

We give up two old men and a prospect who has proven zilch in the majors for a high-strikeout guy. Sure, Vazquez is imperfect. What #5 starter isn't?

This does leave two holes in our bullpen, though (I forgot about Hermy being problematic). Every medicore reliever is going to want BJ Ryan money. Complain about the bullpen holes, not having one of the best #5 starters in the league.

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 03:23 AM
is Vasquez even worth 5 million a year? and if Vasquez flops, we're still stuck for 12.5 in 2007, Duque isn't contracted in 2007, don't know about Viz.

Why don't you just jump already and stop tormenting us with insane post after post after post? :rolleyes:

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 03:24 AM
He's arbitration eligible in 2008 rather than a FA because of the trade demand.

Ok. So 3 off season issues remaining:

1. How much cash do we receive?

2. Will KW acquire a hitter w/ JG or otherwise?

3. How will KW handle the BP? If he keeps JG, this issue is less pressing b/c then BMac would be inserted there.

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 03:26 AM
I see. Because we've had a lot of luck rushing young pitchers, right?

We give up two old men and a prospect who has proven zilch in the majors for a high-strikeout guy. Sure, Vazquez is imperfect. What #5 starter isn't?

This does leave two holes in our bullpen, though (I forgot about Hermy being problematic). Every medicore reliever is going to want BJ Ryan money. Complain about the bullpen holes, not having one of the best #5 starters in the league.
McCarthy is already better than Vasquez, McCarthy is a high-strikeout guy, he was dominate after returning from AAA, even with his bad early starts he has better stats than Vaz, we're not rushing him, he's already proven he can do it.

Realist
12-14-2005, 03:27 AM
So we unload Hernandez and his $4.5 million.

Then we pick up Vazquez and his $8.5 million[assuming the Snakes kick in the $3 they got from the Yanks].

Then turn around and unload Garland and the $6 million he's projected to get in arbitration.

That puts us $2 million ahead. Am I following this correctly? Does anybody have any idea how much more money Kenny has to spend to land a top tier shortstop or centerfielder? Plus... what about filling some of the bullpen holes now?

edit: whoops. left out Vizcaino's 2006 salary. What's that, about $2 million?

hawkeyesox17
12-14-2005, 03:28 AM
Ok. So 3 off season issues remaining:

1. How much cash do we receive?

2. Will KW acquire a hitter w/ JG or otherwise?

3. How will KW handle the BP? If he keeps JG, this issue is less pressing b/c then BMac would be inserted there.

Is it funny or sad that I understood everything that he said?...so many
abbreviations...my head hurts

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 03:29 AM
So we unload Hernandez and his $4.5 million.

Then we pick up Vazquez and his $8.5 million[assuming the Snakes kick in the $3 they got from the Yanks].

Then turn around and unload Garland and the $6 million he's projected to get in arbitration.

That puts us $2 million ahead. Am I following this correctly? Does anybody have any idea how much more money Kenny has to spend to land a top tier shortstop or centerfielder? Plus... what about filling some of the bullpen holes now?

In terms of the BP, it may be a fruitless hope but I still think some combo of Harris/Gload/Borchard can bring us a Vizcaino quality reliever.

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 03:29 AM
So we unload Hernandez and his $4.5 million.

Then we pick up Vazquez and his $8.5 million[assuming the Snakes kick in the $3 they got from the Yanks].

Then turn around and unload Garland and the $6 million he's projected to get in arbitration.

That puts us $2 million ahead. Am I following this correctly? Does anybody have any idea how much more money Kenny has to spend to land a top tier shortstop or centerfielder? Plus... what about filling some of the bullpen holes now?

It's all up in the air right now. First we have to see how much money the D'backs are eating and who really is in the deal. We might be getting something else in return.

Kenny has a plan. I'm sure he isn't making this move without already having a solid plan in place for his next move. We just have to see how it all plays out.

KRS1
12-14-2005, 03:31 AM
So we unload Hernandez and his $4.5 million.

Then we pick up Vazquez and his $8.5 million[assuming the Snakes kick in the $3 they got from the Yanks].

Then turn around and unload Garland and the $6 million he's projected to get in arbitration.

That puts us $2 million ahead. Am I following this correctly? Does anybody have any idea how much more money Kenny has to spend to land a top tier shortstop or centerfielder? Plus... what about filling some of the bullpen holes now?

Man I hate it when people do this but I got one for ya,

Garland+Borch to S.F. for Lowry, Erick Threets, and a mid-level prospect.

Gets us two lefties for our pen, one of which chucks the ball at 100+(it's been reported at times during the 05' season he hit 104), and a prospect to fill in a minor league need.

ilsox7
12-14-2005, 03:34 AM
Man I hate it when people do this but I got one for ya,

Garland+Borch to S.F. for Lowry, Erick Threets, and a mid-level prospect.

Gets us two lefties for our pen, one of which chucks the ball at 100+(it's been reported at times during the 05' season he hit 104), and a prospect to fill in a minor league need.

I honestly know nothing about those guys from SF, but if we are trading Garland, it should be for a premier name IMO. I am wondering if there are two trades in place: one between the Sox and DBacks and another between the Sox and unknown team. The hold-up is that unknown team is negotiating a long-term deal with Garland. Just throwing that out there.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-14-2005, 03:34 AM
Does anyone have the details on Vaz's contract? I heard rumblings of a vested year for 08 once he requested a trade.

2006: 11.5
2007: 12.5

Pretty sure he doesn't get anything else. I believe he signed a 4 year deal with the New York Yankees right before or after he was acquired from Montreal 2 years ago.

Realist
12-14-2005, 03:35 AM
Man I hate it when people do this but I got one for ya,

Garland+Borch to S.F. for Lowry, Erick Threets, and a mid-level prospect.

Gets us two lefties for our pen, one of which chucks the ball at 100+(it's been reported at times during the 05' season he hit 104), and a prospect to fill in a minor league need.

Whew. Man, my head is spinning. Life was so much simpler when all I could think about was this past October. :smile:

HomeFish
12-14-2005, 03:35 AM
I'm not so hot about shipping off Garland now. It would ruin the pitching depth we have now. Plus, he's on a contract year. If he is greedy as they say, then perhaps this is the time to keep him for another season.

Right now, Kenny needs to find two relief pitchers. A #2 hitter is nice, but let's remember what got won us the World Series. (Hint: it wasn't offense)

ilsox7
12-14-2005, 03:38 AM
I'm not so hot about shipping off Garland now. It would ruin the pitching depth we have now. Plus, he's on a contract year. If he is greedy as they say, then perhaps this is the time to keep him for another season.

Right now, Kenny needs to find two relief pitchers. A #2 hitter is nice, but let's remember what got won us the World Series. (Hint: it wasn't offense)

Garland only gets shipped off for a Grade A player.

KRS1
12-14-2005, 03:39 AM
I honestly know nothing about those guys from SF, but if we are trading Garland, it should be for a premier name IMO. I am wondering if there are two trades in place: one between the Sox and DBacks and another between the Sox and unknown team. The hold-up is that unknown team is negotiating a long-term deal with Garland. Just throwing that out there.

Noah Lowry is a quality lefty especially when he comes outta the pen , but he is considered a starter. Erick Threets came outta college a sidewinder and was converted to an over-the-top motion which gained him 5+mph, and was once considered the next Randy Johnson(I know how many times have we heard that) the only thing stopping him is his command. He had one shoulder injury which caused him to miss a good chunk of a season but was considered a minor injury and I would tend to agree b/c 2 years removed from it he still tops 100 on the gun. I saw him pitch in ST last year and he absolutely blew my mind. If everyone here insists Coop can solve Javi's problems he surely can cure this guys.

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 03:41 AM
Why do we need to trade Garland? we still have one year on his contract, isn't the goal to win in 2006 not 2007? what good does the longer contract of Vasquez really do us? I guess it is possible that KW knows something about Garland we don't.

getonbckthr
12-14-2005, 03:42 AM
For the people thinking we have 6 starters or think we should keep Garland you are completely wrong. This deal was solely for the purpose of dealing Garland opposed to getting nothing for him when he walks. As far as price that blackjack is bitching about. He makes 12 million a year. We will get money from Arizona probably 3 million. El Duque was scheduled to make 6.5 this season. Right there we are at 9.5 million. Throw in Vizcaino's salary of 1.5 we are talking 11 million dollars. So we upgrade from El Duque to Vazquez for 1 million dollars. Bajaneru will be a great replacement for Viz. As far as the prospect Young, he is just that a prospect, not a guarentee.

Scottiehaswheels
12-14-2005, 03:45 AM
For the people thinking we have 6 starters or think we should keep Garland you are completely wrong. This deal was solely for the purpose of dealing Garland opposed to getting nothing for him when he walks.

I think we keep him(Garland) til the trade deadline in July... Brandon/Bajenaru in the pen until then

ilsox7
12-14-2005, 03:45 AM
Why do we need to trade Garland? we still have one year on his contract, isn't the goal to win in 2006 not 2007? what good does the longer contract of Vasquez really do us? I guess it is possible that KW knows something about Garland we don't.

We don't need to trade him. But if we can find a way to make the team as good in 2006 while also securing the future, then you do it.

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 03:46 AM
garland walks after 2006, we can get value out of him one simple way:

have him pitch for us

we don't need to trade him, he's still ours, we should trade Buehrle when he has one year left because he is going to sign with St. Louis anyway

WhiteSoxFan84
12-14-2005, 03:47 AM
Can we stop with the "this is a horrible move" and the "why the hell did we trade..." comments? Can we just wait until the deal is official, see who is actually getting dealt, see how much money (if any) is switching hands, and then we can break the trade down.

Until then, let's talk about what Vazquez coming to the White Sox would mean. Will Garland be dealt? Is this part of a mysterious 3-way deal that no one knows about yet? Is Brandon McCarthy not ready in the eyes of White Sox scouts? Is Freddy Garcia going to divorce his wife, Ozzie's neice, and thus forcing Kenny to trade Freddy away before Ozzie beats his ass? These are the important questions we should be asking and trying to answer! :redneck

KRS1
12-14-2005, 03:48 AM
We just solved AZ's 3 biggest concerns, CF, BP, and SP. I think KW really worked them over for cash on this one adn wouldnt doubt it if they added another 3 to go with that of the Yanks to cover Javis deal. El will solidify their roto Young will start in CF next year and Vizc automatically becomes their 2 or 3 option outta then pen depending on where Aquino is.

SouthSideHitman
12-14-2005, 03:49 AM
All I can say right now to Kenny is wow. Just wow.

But I like this this deal, with no follow-up. I hate getting rid of a player who looks the closest to a sure-thing MLBer, but dems da breaks, especially when it means getting rid of El Duque at 40 years, 4.5 mil. This move is really great, IMO because it really puts us set to contend next year, we have a rotation that will have at worst all #1 or #2 caliber starters with maybe one #3, by far the best in baseball and still a very strong bullpen (with Bmac or whoever down there being an addition. I also am very confident for Javy, this won't be the pressure of New York and leading a staff, plus I think being at the bottom of a great rotation with Coop helping him will enable him to bounce back.

But think of our offseason after this. We've IMPROVED our incredible starters. Not really lost much from the bullpen and improved our offense. As far as injuries, we're actually much safer, lest we hit a little bumpy weather (cough, 01!). We've got Mackowiak to back up Crede (or whoever), we've got Thome who should be more reliable than Big Frank was last year, we've got an extra starter and, should we lose an OFer, we've still got a few left down on the farm. I'm not saying it's the perfect offeseason, but it's hard to think how we could have better improved our club while giving up less.

HomeFish
12-14-2005, 03:49 AM
I think we keep him(Garland) til the trade deadline in July...

Not if we're in contention in July we don't. Otherwise, certainly.

HomeFish
12-14-2005, 03:50 AM
But think of our offseason after this. We've IMPROVED our incredible starters. Not really lost much from the bullpen and improved our offense. As far as injuries, we're actually much safer, lest we hit a little bumpy weather (cough, 01!). We've got Mackowiak to back up Crede (or whoever), we've got Thome who should be more reliable than Big Frank was last year, we've got an extra starter and, should we lose an OFer, we've still got a few left down on the farm. I'm not saying it's the perfect offeseason, but it's hard to think how we could have better improved our club while giving up less.

2 relief pitchers and a center fielder. That's all this team needs now.

Imo, Daddy Mack makes Crede expendable, but that's for another thread.

SouthSideHitman
12-14-2005, 03:50 AM
Is Freddy Garcia going to divorce his wife, Ozzie's neice, and thus forcing Kenny to trade Freddy away before Ozzie beats his ass? These are the important questions we should be asking and trying to answer! :redneck

*cue dramatic organ music* The answers to this and more on tomorrow's General Soxspital. hehe

nodiggity59
12-14-2005, 03:53 AM
As great as the depth of having the 6 starters would be, I drool at the thought of 4 years of Miguel Tejeda.

SouthSideHitman
12-14-2005, 03:53 AM
2 relief pitchers and a center fielder. That's all this team needs now.

I wouldn't mind picking up another lefty reliever (although Damaso wasn't that great against lefties anyway, so it's not like we lost much) but I don't mind letting our studs battle in out in CF. We're so strong everywhere else and have so many good young outfielders it makes sense to try to develope from within at one position, keep that cost down and focus on other things. Plus we'll be in a fine position to trade for a CF come June/July if things get desperate.

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 03:53 AM
A) Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Vazquez, Garland

B) Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Vazquez, McCarthy

C) Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Garland, McCarthy


Which is best?

WhiteSoxFan84
12-14-2005, 03:53 AM
garland walks after 2006, we can get value out of him one simple way:

have him pitch for us

we don't need to trade him, he's still ours, we should trade Buehrle when he has one year left because he is going to sign with St. Louis anyway

I'm going to post this and go to sleep...

Can you distinguish the difference between Buehrle and Garland? If you said one is an ace and the other one is Garland, you would be correct. My point being that Buehrle would deserve 10-12 mill per year and will probably get it from us when his time comes. However, Garland has ONE GOOD YEAR and wants AJ Burnett money (11 mill per)?? Get him off my team ASAP. I understand he's young and wants to make as much as possible and I respect that, BUT, he needs to respect the business aspect of baseball and not get butt hurt if we trade him because he won't sign long-term.

If Johan Santana is happy with a 4 year, $40 million deal that he signed last offseason, a year after WINNING THE CY YOUNG, who the hell is Jon Garland to turn down a 3 year, $24 million offer? His intentions are obvious. I already see the dollar signs in his eyes and I say trade him while his stock is high before we lose him and get nothing in return.

Scottiehaswheels
12-14-2005, 03:56 AM
Not if we're in contention in July we don't. Otherwise, certainly.

Not so sure... I expect to have Jon regress a little bit... look at his second half.. 6-7... I think we can expect Brandon to at least be able to fill his shoes adequately for 3-4 months... Brandon wouldn't even be a part of any post season rotation either... Most likely Vazquez if all goes as planned...

HotelWhiteSox
12-14-2005, 04:01 AM
But think of our offseason after this. We've IMPROVED our incredible starters. Not really lost much from the bullpen and improved our offense.

I disagree. This deal sounds like it's setting up a deal to get something for Garland. So, in essence, you're replacing Garland with Vazquez in 2006. I'm not even sure that Vazquez is better than Hernandez. Just because he used to be good doesn't mean that Cooper can wave his magic wand around. Garcia has always been good, his iffy year came when he got no run support, and it showed when that was the same year we acquired him and he finished up strong. Garcia or Contreras shouldn't be compared to Vazquez (Don't forget it took a while to fix Contreras in the first place). Even when he was good, he gave up the longball, and now he gets rocked all the time (4+ ERA in the NL, yuck). I could live with it if it was Vazquez for Hernandez straight up, but you throw in Young (winning now is nice, but you can't be completely ignorant of the future. I don't want to be in the situation the Marlins are in 3-4 years from now) and Viz (add another hole to a bullpen that was key last year).

Whatever though, there's nothing I can do to control it and who knows what the future will bring, it's too late for me now, so I'm out. Hopefully more details when I wake up.

KRS1
12-14-2005, 04:01 AM
2 relief pitchers and a center fielder. That's all this team needs now.

Imo, Daddy Mack makes Crede expendable, but that's for another thread.

Stupid idea but Colorado has too many 3rd baseman to count either stud minor leaguers or majors. Luis Gonzales, Garret Atkins(remains to be seen wether he can hit away from Colorado),Jeff Baker, Ian Stewart, Chris Nelson(might be a SS), all could be used as a move past Crede and look towards our future and with that depth we might get one without losing too great of a player. Throw in Fuentes and the Rocks get a higher caliber pitcher and we get our LOOGY+, and someone to step in Joe's shadow after Borass undoubtedly askes for a kings ransom in his next deal.

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 04:02 AM
Can you distinguish the difference between Buehrle and Garland? If you said one is an ace and the other one is Garland, you would be correct. My point being that Buehrle would deserve 10-12 mill per year and will probably get it from us when his time comes. However, Garland has ONE GOOD YEAR and wants AJ Burnett money (11 mill per)??

First off, I'm sorry for getting in an argument with everyone, it wasn't my intention, my point is that Vazquez's last good year was 3 years ago and he is already making Burnett money, Garland had a good year last year and is going to make half as much next year. I'm done defending my argument, it's likely a done deal, I don't like it, I'm not the GM, I can't do anything about it. I guess I'm a little pissed about seeing the team Re-engineered a couple of monthes after winning our first world series in 88 years.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-14-2005, 04:09 AM
First off, I'm sorry for getting in an argument with everyone, it wasn't my intention, my point is that Vazquez's last good year was 3 years ago and he is already making Burnett money, Garland had a good year last year and is going to make half as much next year. I'm done defending my argument, it's likely a done deal, I don't like it, I'm not the GM, I can't do anything about it. I guess I'm a little pissed about seeing the team Re-engineered a couple of monthes after winning our first world series in 88 years.

Every year, 1 team wins the World Series. Every year, 29 teams don't. Every year, almost all of the 29 teams that lost try to improve themselves so they have a better chance at winning the World Series. Do you think that every year that 1 team that won the World Series just sits back and says, "Oh, we have no holes, we have no weaknesses, we'll be fine. You know why? Because we did it last year! We surely can do it again with the SAME TEAM can't we?"

I think we can both agree that the answer to that question is, NO. You have to upgrade your team and make it better because you know all your rivals in the division and the league are improving themselves and are out to get you.

And as long as you don't insult anyone or get offended yourself, your arguements are welcome in my eyes.

Hagan
12-14-2005, 04:09 AM
A) Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Vazquez, Garland

B) Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Vazquez, McCarthy

C) Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Garland, McCarthy


Which is best?

C Mccarthy is major league ready and has proven that last year. We need to put him in our rotation and not make him wait in the minors. A lot of people have made it seem like Garland's year last year was a fluke and that he will not come close to putting the numbers up that he did last year, while Vazquez's numbers were down and he will improve which I do not believe. Javier is not what this team needs. Having Chris Young in our minor league system helps us a lot more because he is only a year off of being major league ready and with him being able to play for us it saves us money since he gets paid very little when he comes up. Also Youngs potential is through the roof. With that extra money we can resign Garland or go after another free agent. This is a bad move unless we can turn around and trade one of our starters for a very good player. (If its anyone on the Rangers I will cry, especially Hank Blalock)

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 04:16 AM
Do you think that every year that 1 team that won the World Series just sits back and says, "Oh, we have no holes, we have no weaknesses, we'll be fine. You know why? Because we did it last year! We surely can do it again with the SAME TEAM can't we?"


of course there is always room for improvement on a team, if we were adding Johan Santana I would be jumping up and down in bliss. Our pitching was the one area that we didn't need improvement, it was the best in baseball, why tamper? Vazquez was a very bad pitcher last year, Garland and McCarthy were very good last year, why tamper?

ilsox7
12-14-2005, 04:19 AM
of course there is always room for improvement on a team, if we were adding Johan Santana I would be jumping up and down in bliss. Our pitching was the one area that we didn't need improvement, it was the best in baseball, why tamper? Vazquez was a very bad pitcher last year, Garland and McCarthy were very good last year, why tamper?

Well, our top 3 are not changing. And McCarthy is still there. And let's face it, El Duque won some games last year but was not all that great. If this trade happens and Garland is shipped out, then we are essentially replacing Garland and El Duque and McCarthy with Vazquez and McCarthy. I think there's a good chance those two can match the production of the 3 guys from last year. And there is more potential upside with having Vazquez. And Garland should be able to bring in a Grade A player.

Is it risky? Of course. But that's how we won in 2005. By taking risks.

getonbckthr
12-14-2005, 04:26 AM
First off, I'm sorry for getting in an argument with everyone, it wasn't my intention, my point is that Vazquez's last good year was 3 years ago and he is already making Burnett money, Garland had a good year last year and is going to make half as much next year. I'm done defending my argument, it's likely a done deal, I don't like it, I'm not the GM, I can't do anything about it. I guess I'm a little pissed about seeing the team Re-engineered a couple of monthes after winning our first world series in 88 years.
Vazquez will not be getting Burnett kind of money from us. Vazquez will be getting Glendon Rusch money from us. Ask yourself this what would you rather have out of these 2 situations:
Garland/Uribe or Vazquez/Tejada
Garland/Anderson or Vazquez/ Crawford.
Out of those situations I would rather have the Vazquez option.

Black Jack
12-14-2005, 04:26 AM
EDIT: Screw it

peeonwrigley
12-14-2005, 04:33 AM
I honestly know nothing about those guys from SF, but if we are trading Garland, it should be for a premier name IMO. I am wondering if there are two trades in place: one between the Sox and DBacks and another between the Sox and unknown team. The hold-up is that unknown team is negotiating a long-term deal with Garland. Just throwing that out there.
My thoughts exactly. There has to be more to this trade... and they're not going to give Jon up for peanuts.

IMO Garland has made his intentions clear to the club about the money he wants and the Sox did not like it. I think there's another shoe dangling from a toe somewhere that will drop in the not too distant future. The hold up on the other end probably has to do w/ signing Garland to a long term deal and the other details total package -- but given tonight's deal I would think the bulk of it is in motion.

I personally don't like it if we stand pat. Very interested to see what follows though.

ilsox7
12-14-2005, 05:04 AM
My thoughts exactly. There has to be more to this trade... and they're not going to give Jon up for peanuts.

IMO Garland has made his intentions clear to the club about the money he wants and the Sox did not like it. I think there's another shoe dangling from a toe somewhere that will drop in the not too distant future. The hold up on the other end probably has to do w/ signing Garland to a long term deal and the other details total package -- but given tonight's deal I would think the bulk of it is in motion.

I personally don't like it if we stand pat. Very interested to see what follows though.
Also, news that Jose may be considering an extension. To play a little in fantasy world (while on my study break) if Jose signs a 2-3 year extension and we get Javier and trade Jon, our rotation is set for both 2006 and 2007 as. And it's a pretty awesome rotation of 3 guys in their prime, one young possible stud, and an older, potentially lights-out guy.

The upside here is a World Championship contending team in 2006 AND 2007. The downside is a Divisional contender in 2006 and 2007.

doublem23
12-14-2005, 05:08 AM
EDIT: Screw it Thank you. You can second-guess Ken Williams when you build your own World Champion.

Mr. White Sox
12-14-2005, 05:19 AM
I have no idea what to make of this deal right now. As of now, it doesn't make a ton of sense considering we don't know who else is going to be traded. There is no way this is our rotation heading into 2006; someone's going to be traded. Maybe Vazquez, maybe Garland, maybe Contreras. Once the other major offseason moves are solidified, then I'll chime in, but until then, let's just label me "cautiously optomistic".

beck72
12-14-2005, 05:45 AM
With quality starting pitching at a premium, other teams can offer deals to the sox. The sox don't have to approach other teams.

My guess is the sox can take offers for Jon and may the best offer win.

SoCalWhiteSoxFan
12-14-2005, 06:16 AM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-spmets1214,0,2952737.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines (http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-spmets1214,0,2952737.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines)

Newsday in New York is reporting this morning: (http://http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-spmets1214,0,2952737.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines)

"In return for Vazquez and money, the White Sox are sending former Yankee Orlando Hernandez, righthanded reliever Luis Vizcaino and outfield prospect Chris Young. The deal is contingent on the players passing physicals. With this move, the World Series champs have upgraded their rotation for next season."

ATXBMX
12-14-2005, 06:24 AM
You're only a few hours late. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=63730)

SoCalWhiteSoxFan
12-14-2005, 06:36 AM
Uh, I think my post was the first link here to the Newsday article appearing this morning, which I also believe is the first "published" report.

ilsox7
12-14-2005, 06:38 AM
Uh, I think my post was the first link here to the Newsday article appearing this morning, which I also believe is the first "published" report.

Regardless, there is a 14 billion page thread about this in the Sox Clubhouse along with a 4 billion page thread with it in What's The Score.

SoCalWhiteSoxFan
12-14-2005, 06:46 AM
OK, Woodward and Bernstein. I thought the Newsday report would be of interest.

ilsox7
12-14-2005, 06:48 AM
OK, Woodward and Bernstein. I thought the Newsday report would be of interest.

It is. That is why there are huge threads about it linking to either Newsday or Rotoworld which sites Newsday as the course. Several people were up late into the night talking about this around here.

SoCalWhiteSoxFan
12-14-2005, 06:50 AM
... and I could be mistaken, but I believe the Newsday report is the first which identifies Vizcaino specifically as the reliefer throw-in.

ilsox7
12-14-2005, 06:54 AM
... and I could be mistaken, but I believe the Newsday report is the first which identifies Vizcaino specifically as the reliefer throw-in.

OK, I don't want this to sound mean, but as we've said, this is ALL being discussed in other threads. Including the fact that Viz is part of the deal. And that it's Young and Duque. Plus the mention that Contreras and JG have both been offered extensions. Some people have even mentioned possible trades involving JG, assuming he is the one to go. It's all there.

SoCalWhiteSoxFan
12-14-2005, 07:07 AM
OK, I don't want this to sound mean, but as we've said, this is ALL being discussed in other threads. Including the fact that Viz is part of the deal. And that it's Young and Duque. Plus the mention that Contreras and JG have both been offered extensions. Some people have even mentioned possible trades involving JG, assuming he is the one to go. It's all there.

Well I'll be meaner. I guess playing thread police is something you have time for when there are six inches of snow on the ground back there! Thanks for the tip. I'll print out all the threads and bring them to the beach with me today. :cool:

Seriously, though, cheat over at SouthSideSox has some interesting thoughts. http://southsidesox.com/story/2005/12/14/05534/890 (http://southsidesox.com/story/2005/12/14/05534/890)

ilsox7
12-14-2005, 07:09 AM
Well I'll be meaner. I guess playing thread police is something you have time for when there are six inches of snow on the ground back there! Thanks for the tip. I'll print out all the threads and bring them to the beach with me today. :cool:

Seriously, though, cheat over at SouthSideSox has some interesting thoughts. http://southsidesox.com/story/2005/12/14/05534/890 (http://southsidesox.com/story/2005/12/14/05534/890)

Haha. Yea this cold weather sucks, but I still love Chicago. In all seriousness though, the other thread has a ton of info. and is actually a pretty interesting read, that's why I made it a point to lead anyone looking at this thread in its direction.

doublem23
12-14-2005, 07:12 AM
If it's breaking Sox news, it's already been broken at WSI. Merged.

gr8mexico
12-14-2005, 07:19 AM
Fox News in the Morning is reporting that the Sox traded El Duque, Luis Viscaino and a minor league prospect for Javier Vazquez. :bandance:

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 07:20 AM
Isn't Duque, Vizcaino and Young a ****load to give up for Vazquez?

Who is Young? Young is a prospect. That's it. Just take a look at what all our wonderful prospects have done in the big leagues. Borchard was--and I kid you not--once compared to Mickey Mantle in terms of raw power from both sides of the plate. Jeremy Reed. This guy hit .400 in a short season. We trade him for "number 3 at best" Freddy Garcia and people are jumping out of windows. Eighteen months later, Garcia's throwing a shutout in the World Series and Reed can barely justify a starting job on a garbage team.

Vizcaino blows.

El Duque's done. It's an outright miracle what he did in Boston.

IggyD
12-14-2005, 07:22 AM
Could the $490 price tag on the blue seats be to help cover this "Javier Vazquez" deal?:?: Hummmmm

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 07:22 AM
Fox News in the Morning is reporting that the Sox traded El Duque, Luis Viscaino and a minor league prospect for Javier Vazquez. :bandance:

I'll tell you what, it's BS that I'm still awake, but I got it on in the other room. Good move, Ken.

JUribe1989
12-14-2005, 07:39 AM
So, I guess this means Garland is sure to be traded next. Also, who is going to replace Vizcaino in the bullpen? Do we call up a Bajenaru or Munoz and give them shots because I think they both deserve it. I think they could be as effective as Vizcaino was.

Cat Thief
12-14-2005, 07:52 AM
El Duque's done. It's an outright miracle what he did in Boston.

No miracle, it's called experience.

ChiSoxIn06
12-14-2005, 08:02 AM
I think Vazquez will be on a short leash in the rotation...if he struggles early I think they will move him to the bullpen and give McCarthy a shot at starting.

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 08:02 AM
No miracle, it's called experience.

He certainly has that and guts to spare. But he's got nothing left in the tank and he didn't then either.

Scotty347
12-14-2005, 08:04 AM
who is going to replace Vizcaino in the bullpen?

Does it matter? Vizcaino was awful for most of the year and will not be missed.

So far we've gotten rid of Marte and Vizcaino, our two bad bullpen pitchers.

Kenny is doing a fantastic job.

Scotty347
12-14-2005, 08:05 AM
I think Vazquez will be on a short leash in the rotation...if he struggles early I think they will move him to the bullpen and give McCarthy a shot at starting.

Not at $10 million/season he won't.

batmanZoSo
12-14-2005, 08:08 AM
Does it matter? Vizcaino was awful for most of the year and will not be missed.

So far we've gotten rid of Marte and Vizcaino, our two bad bullpen pitchers.

Kenny is doing a fantastic job.

It's called trimming the fat. Neither of the two will be missed.

wassagstdu
12-14-2005, 08:17 AM
Though if this does bring us Miguel Tejada through a trade of Jon Garland+Uribe, I'd no longer wonder what KW is thinking.

I seem to be seriously outvoted on this one but it looks to me like a horrible trade. I see Uribe really coming into his own in 2006 and Garland helping us repeat (then moving on). Tejada would seriously change the flavor of the team and talking about the likes of Tejada and Griffey starts to make me think of the Mets or the Orioles, putting together last year's -- or last decade's -- team. The Braves are a better model. But then I don't do stats. (The only stat that matters is "W")

.

Ward Hershberger
12-14-2005, 08:22 AM
Think a starter to the Reds? is there room for KG Jr now?

Whitesox4ever
12-14-2005, 08:23 AM
its a done deal. accordiing to bruce levine

BeviBall!
12-14-2005, 08:26 AM
Think smaller-scale for a moment. This puts a hole in the pen... I wonder if we'll be seeing the Dennys Baez rumors resurfacing?

I don't know... we have Anderson and Owens, so that makes Young expendable. The way KW is going, a big-time CF should be on his way here in a week.

RowanDye
12-14-2005, 08:36 AM
So, I guess this means Garland is sure to be traded next. Also, who is going to replace Vizcaino in the bullpen? Do we call up a Bajenaru or Munoz and give them shots because I think they both deserve it. I think they could be as effective as Vizcaino was.

Why are some of you so confident Garland will be traded soon? KW has already expressed a desire to have 6 starters. So Vazquez takes El Duque's spot. McArthy takes Vizcaino's spot. Bajenaru or Bajenawhoever takes Marte's spot. This is an upgrade at all 3 spots for a relatively low cost, as has been already pointed out. McArthy can be worked in or used as needed. He's around for insurance. if he just does the job he did last year filling in with spot starts and takes over Vizcaino's work load, he'll get well over 100 innings. I trust KW enough to think that if he trades Garland he will get a good return. We'll see.

Hagan
12-14-2005, 08:40 AM
Who is Young? Young is a prospect. That's it. Just take a look at what all our wonderful prospects have done in the big leagues. Borchard was--and I kid you not--once compared to Mickey Mantle in terms of raw power from both sides of the plate. Jeremy Reed. This guy hit .400 in a short season. We trade him for "number 3 at best" Freddy Garcia and people are jumping out of windows. Eighteen months later, Garcia's throwing a shutout in the World Series and Reed can barely justify a starting job on a garbage team.

Vizcaino blows.

El Duque's done. It's an outright miracle what he did in Boston.

How can you say that young is worth less because borchard was bad? If you are looking at prospects look at Buehrle, Rowand, Crede, Garland, Mccarthy, Jenks, Cotts, and Frank Thomas. All of them were white sox prospects to and they helped the team a lot after being prospects. This team if they continue to help their team by trading their cheap young prospects away are going to have to pay a lot more for players and have a lot less money to move around in later years.

thepaulbowski
12-14-2005, 08:41 AM
Vazquez has great talent, working with Coop should help bring all of this out. I'm sure the talking heads will love the deal, but who cares....

Chez
12-14-2005, 08:42 AM
Even if this is not a precursor for other moves to come, this is a great move for the Sox. If last season taught us anything is that you win with pitching -- mostly solid starting pitching that takes you deep into games. Vasquez is an upgrade (albeit an expensive upgrade) over El Duque for 2006 and an insurance policy if we lose Garland or Contreras (or both) after the season. I love this move and hope we hang onto Garland for this season even if we can't re-sign him to a multi-year deal.

BeviBall!
12-14-2005, 08:42 AM
How can you say that young is worth less because borchard was bad? If you are looking at prospects look at Buehrle, Rowand, Crede, Garland, Mccarthy, Jenks, Cotts, and Frank Thomas. All of them were white sox prospects to and they helped the team a lot after being prospects. This team if they continue to help their team by trading their cheap young prospects away are going to have to pay a lot more for players and have a lot less money to move around in later years.

Cotts, Garland and Jenks came from other organizations. If we keep winning, the park remains filled, and we can afford the big names. This is a Sox town now.

BeviBall!
12-14-2005, 08:43 AM
Vazquez has great talent, working with Coop should help bring all of this out.

This is the best point of the entire thread. If Coop can turn around Jose... imagine what he'll do with Javy.

itsnotrequired
12-14-2005, 08:46 AM
This is the best point of the entire thread. If Coop can turn around Jose... imagine what he'll do with Javy.

I get giddy when I think of what Coop could do with Vazquez...

fox23
12-14-2005, 08:47 AM
This team if they continue to help their team by trading their cheap young prospects away are going to have to pay a lot more for players and have a lot less money to move around in later years.

Why not strike while the iron is still hot? Which would you rather want, a good, but not great team for a decade (90's Sox), or a great team for a few years (today's Sox) that might be mediocre for a season or two down the road?