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Bobby Pigpen
12-10-2005, 04:54 PM
Uribe and Garland for Miguel Tejeda , with Kenny Williams saying Garland will probably test free agency next year and the emergence Brandon McCarthy,would you make this deal? I love Garland and Uribe but isn't Tejeda one of the top 5 players in the game?

RallyBowl
12-10-2005, 05:03 PM
No.

SOXBOY
12-10-2005, 05:26 PM
No, you can never have enough pitching.Garland might leave next year but one more year is better than nothing.Sox built the team on Defense and Pitching why change now.

SOXSINCE'70
12-10-2005, 05:43 PM
Even though I realise Garland will test the FA market in 2007,take it,Hawk:

:hawk
"Nnnnnno".

As SOXBOY mentioned,pitching and defense win championships.
When Ozzie Guillen and Kenny Williams were finally allowed to construct
the club that way after the '04 disaster,this became evident.I don't
know if you'll see a more dominant Sox pitching staff than the '05 squad
(at least in the playoffs) again,but sitting back and waiting for the 3 run HR
with no runners on base is not the way to go,in my book.

Fredsox
12-10-2005, 05:46 PM
No, you can never have enough pitching.Garland might leave next year but one more year is better than nothing.Sox built the team on Defense and Pitching why change now.

Word. Enough of this "let's see what we can get for Garland" stuff. If we are out of competition at the All Star break, sure, let's do a dump of him and others. But does anyone REALLY think that's gonna happen?

This team is pretty set right now. Let's just sit back and watch the scramble by the other 29 teams playing for the right to lose to use in the 2006 WS.

chisoxfan64
12-10-2005, 06:16 PM
Count me in for a NO.

monkeypants
12-10-2005, 07:22 PM
Baltimore wouldn't do this trade anyways. They are not in contention this year so why would they want Garland for one year. The O's near good prospects and a replacement SS.

SoxFanPrope
12-10-2005, 07:22 PM
With Garland in the rotation we have the best chance to repeat right now. Why mess with that?

NardiWasHere
12-10-2005, 07:25 PM
What if you can sign another reliable starter like a Millwood/Byrd type of guy?

I'm not saying I like or dislike the trade, but if you have a chance to get a Tejada type of player... you gotta take a close look at it.

Then again...
This move woud sort of remind me (in a scary way) like the BoSox upgrading to Renteria and weakening their pitching after they won.

The idea of having Tejada-Konerko-Thome as the 3-4-5 is just very tempting... I'd be conflicted.

gr8mexico
12-10-2005, 07:45 PM
Yes I would make the trade but if only the O's picked up some money or give up Rodrigo Lopez. The problem is money and I'm not sure if the Sox can take on that much money. I would rather have the Sox trade Dye & Uribe for Tejada and give Gload a chance to play the OF or have Brian Anderson and Jerry Owens play the OF so they don't have to spend money on another OF.Uribe will make 3.15MIL and Dye will make 5MIL If you combine that you will have enough money to pay Tejada and give the young OF a chance to play. 1.Podsednik 2.Iguchi 3.Tejada 4.Thome 5.Konerko 6.A.J 7.Anderson 8.Crede 9.Owens But It wont happend.

caulfield12
12-11-2005, 10:16 AM
Uribe and Garland for Miguel Tejeda , with Kenny Williams saying Garland will probably test free agency next year and the emergence Brandon McCarthy,would you make this deal? I love Garland and Uribe but isn't Tejeda one of the top 5 players in the game?

We would have to get a pitcher back in return, IMO. We have no insurance for El Duque ready for the majors at this point in the system.

Baltimore wouldnīt do this unless they could sign JG long-term.

It would also put our payroll in the vicinity of $95 million. It would be the ultimate Cubs-buster deal and really solidify the Sox as the team to follow in Chicagoland for 2006...but I just donīt see our budget getting that far out of whack.

IowaSox1971
12-12-2005, 02:51 AM
Tejada compiles good stats, but he has never gotten past the first round of the playoffs. Is he a winner? Is he a team player? How could he have allowed the Orioles to fall apart last season? Or was he a reason that the team fell apart? Also, how much of Palmeiro's initial allegations that linked Tejada to his positive steroid test were true? There are a lot of questions about this guy.Baltimore was 30-16 at one point last year and was challenging us for the best record in the majors ... then everything fell completely apart. And now he wants to be traded. I just wonder how he would have handled things last season with the White Sox, when our 15-game lead almost disappeared. Would he have been a guy to help hold things together, or would he have made a tough situation worse?

Domeshot17
12-12-2005, 11:19 AM
Tejada compiles good stats, but he has never gotten past the first round of the playoffs. Is he a winner? Is he a team player? How could he have allowed the Orioles to fall apart last season? Or was he a reason that the team fell apart? Also, how much of Palmeiro's initial allegations that linked Tejada to his positive steroid test were true? There are a lot of questions about this guy.Baltimore was 30-16 at one point last year and was challenging us for the best record in the majors ... then everything fell completely apart. And now he wants to be traded. I just wonder how he would have handled things last season with the White Sox, when our 15-game lead almost disappeared. Would he have been a guy to help hold things together, or would he have made a tough situation worse?

I am a huge fan of Tejada. Hes a former mvp who has admitingly been tested for steroids twice and passed both tests. If you read the reports out of Baltimore, his team mates are stunned because he is such a big club house guy. He was told in baltimore he was going to be the new cal ripken, they were going to build a winner around him, and instead all of the wheels fell off. Don't blame Tejada for not getting past the first round. Oakland hasnt in some time, with or without him. He's the ultimate super star type, a true top 5 player in the game without the mentality that he is a cut above everyone so he deserves special treatment. Moreover, I thought I read somewhere a 2 years ago that Tejada was thrilled Ozzie got the job, because they were good friends and Ozzie was one his hero's. So he would be a good fit.

That being said, I think Garland and Kenny need to figure this out. Garland needs to tell Kenny I want to go out and get my 9-10 million a year, or I want to stay here for 7.5-8. If he says he is going to go, you gotta trade him if you have a chance to get someone like Tejada. Would probably take Owens and Gload as well, but if you can do this pull the trigger.

Jjav829
12-12-2005, 11:41 AM
Tejada compiles good stats, but he has never gotten past the first round of the playoffs. Is he a winner? Is he a team player? How could he have allowed the Orioles to fall apart last season? Or was he a reason that the team fell apart? Also, how much of Palmeiro's initial allegations that linked Tejada to his positive steroid test were true? There are a lot of questions about this guy.Baltimore was 30-16 at one point last year and was challenging us for the best record in the majors ... then everything fell completely apart. And now he wants to be traded. I just wonder how he would have handled things last season with the White Sox, when our 15-game lead almost disappeared. Would he have been a guy to help hold things together, or would he have made a tough situation worse?

Haha, you're joking, right?

How could he have allowed the Orioles to fall apart? Are you kidding? The Orioles fell apart because their starting pitching was crap. Unless Miguel Tejada was pitching for them under a different name, he had no part in the Orioles falling apart. They were simply lucky to get off to the start they did. They never had the pitching to sustain that type of success over an entire season. Once Erik Bedard, who was their best pitcher through May, went to the DL the Orioles fell apart.

Yeah, you're right, there are a lot of questions about Tejada. I'll list a few of them.

Is he the best shortstop in baseball?
Is he a top 5 player or just a top 10 player in all of baseball?
How much would he really cost to acquire?
Is there a reason why any team short of the Yankees shouldn't want Tejada?
Why did he allow the Orioles pitchers to suck so badly? :rolleyes:

caulfield12
12-12-2005, 12:37 PM
I am a huge fan of Tejada. Hes a former mvp who has admitingly been tested for steroids twice and passed both tests. If you read the reports out of Baltimore, his team mates are stunned because he is such a big club house guy. He was told in baltimore he was going to be the new cal ripken, they were going to build a winner around him, and instead all of the wheels fell off. Don't blame Tejada for not getting past the first round. Oakland hasnt in some time, with or without him. He's the ultimate super star type, a true top 5 player in the game without the mentality that he is a cut above everyone so he deserves special treatment. Moreover, I thought I read somewhere a 2 years ago that Tejada was thrilled Ozzie got the job, because they were good friends and Ozzie was one his hero's. So he would be a good fit.

That being said, I think Garland and Kenny need to figure this out. Garland needs to tell Kenny I want to go out and get my 9-10 million a year, or I want to stay here for 7.5-8. If he says he is going to go, you gotta trade him if you have a chance to get someone like Tejada. Would probably take Owens and Gload as well, but if you can do this pull the trigger.

We might as well forget any version of giving up Willie Harris, Borchard, Gload, Owens, etc.

The Orioles would want JG, Uribe and probably Cotts as a starting point of discussion. Cotts would replace Ryan. Of course, KW canīt trade him, but that is what Baltimore would ask for. The only way it would be feasible is if we were to get a pitcher in return...and then itīs unlikely it would be a 3-4 type of guy, probably a 5 like Bruce Chen or Mark Redman type that would be serviceable but lack much of an upside.

FarWestChicago
12-12-2005, 01:31 PM
Yeah, you're right, there are a lot of questions about Tejada. I'll list a few of them.

Is he the best shortstop in baseball?
Is he a top 5 player or just a top 10 player in all of baseball?
How much would he really cost to acquire?
Is there a reason why any team short of the Yankees shouldn't want Tejada?
Why did he allow the Orioles pitchers to suck so badly? :rolleyes: :roflmao:

I like your style, Jjav.

IowaSox1971
12-12-2005, 01:48 PM
Haha, you're joking, right?

How could he have allowed the Orioles to fall apart? Are you kidding? The Orioles fell apart because their starting pitching was crap. Unless Miguel Tejada was pitching for them under a different name, he had no part in the Orioles falling apart. They were simply lucky to get off to the start they did. They never had the pitching to sustain that type of success over an entire season. Once Erik Bedard, who was their best pitcher through May, went to the DL the Orioles fell apart.

Yeah, you're right, there are a lot of questions about Tejada. I'll list a few of them.

Is he the best shortstop in baseball?
Is he a top 5 player or just a top 10 player in all of baseball?
How much would he really cost to acquire?
Is there a reason why any team short of the Yankees shouldn't want Tejada?
Why did he allow the Orioles pitchers to suck so badly? :rolleyes:


Are you Tejada's agent? If not, how can you hold the highest-paid player on the team blameless for such a colossal collapse? How did he have "no part" in this team going from having one of the best records in baseball in late May to having no hope for the playoffs less than two months later?

Tejada is getting a ridiculous amount of money from the Orioles. If you're paying someone that much, the least you can expect is that the guy will help prevent the clubhouse from splintering during rough times.

Pitching was not entirely to blame for Baltimore's collapse. Several times, Tejada failed to come up with key hits against the White Sox and he also failed in the clutch against other teams.

Some guys get good stats but their teams tend to under-achieve. Carlos Lee, Magglio and Nomar immediately come to mind. As soon as they left teams they had been with for many years, their former teams all of a sudden won the World Series. Coincidence? Probably not. If these guys with great stats were so good, how did their teams become so much better after they left? These guys don't hit behind the runner, they strike out with the game on the line and they don't run into the stands to catch a pop-up. But they get good stats, usually by getting three-run homers in a 12-2 game or by padding their average when their team already is out of the playoff race.

If Tejada's so great, why has Baltimore continued to be lousy with him? Why has Oakland continued to be a contender WITHOUT him? We can conclude that, yes, he gets good stats, but he doesn't really help your team all that much.

NardiWasHere
12-12-2005, 02:12 PM
Are you Tejada's agent? If not, how can you hold the highest-paid player on the team blameless for such a colossal collapse? How did he have "no part" in this team going from having one of the best records in baseball in late May to having no hope for the playoffs less than two months later?

Tejada is getting a ridiculous amount of money from the Orioles. If you're paying someone that much, the least you can expect is that the guy will help prevent the clubhouse from splintering during rough times.

Pitching was not entirely to blame for Baltimore's collapse. Several times, Tejada failed to come up with key hits against the White Sox and he also failed in the clutch against other teams.

Some guys get good stats but their teams tend to under-achieve. Carlos Lee, Magglio and Nomar immediately come to mind. As soon as they left teams they had been with for many years, their former teams all of a sudden won the World Series. Coincidence? Probably not. If these guys with great stats were so good, how did their teams become so much better after they left? These guys don't hit behind the runner, they strike out with the game on the line and they don't run into the stands to catch a pop-up. But they get good stats, usually by getting three-run homers in a 12-2 game or by padding their average when their team already is out of the playoff race.

If Tejada's so great, why has Baltimore continued to be lousy with him? Why has Oakland continued to be a contender WITHOUT him? We can conclude that, yes, he gets good stats, but he doesn't really help your team all that much.


:?: :o: Sorry, but you make no sense. Have you ever seen this guy play? He is pedal to the metal for 162 games a year...



Haha, you're joking, right?

How could he have allowed the Orioles to fall apart? Are you kidding? The Orioles fell apart because their starting pitching was crap. Unless Miguel Tejada was pitching for them under a different name, he had no part in the Orioles falling apart. They were simply lucky to get off to the start they did. They never had the pitching to sustain that type of success over an entire season. Once Erik Bedard, who was their best pitcher through May, went to the DL the Orioles fell apart.

Yeah, you're right, there are a lot of questions about Tejada. I'll list a few of them.

Is he the best shortstop in baseball?
Is he a top 5 player or just a top 10 player in all of baseball?
How much would he really cost to acquire?
Is there a reason why any team short of the Yankees shouldn't want Tejada?
Why did he allow the Orioles pitchers to suck so badly? :rolleyes:


:worship:

IlliniSox4Life
12-12-2005, 02:55 PM
Are you Tejada's agent? If not, how can you hold the highest-paid player on the team blameless for such a colossal collapse? How did he have "no part" in this team going from having one of the best records in baseball in late May to having no hope for the playoffs less than two months later?

Tejada is getting a ridiculous amount of money from the Orioles. If you're paying someone that much, the least you can expect is that the guy will help prevent the clubhouse from splintering during rough times.

Pitching was not entirely to blame for Baltimore's collapse. Several times, Tejada failed to come up with key hits against the White Sox and he also failed in the clutch against other teams.

Some guys get good stats but their teams tend to under-achieve. Carlos Lee, Magglio and Nomar immediately come to mind. As soon as they left teams they had been with for many years, their former teams all of a sudden won the World Series. Coincidence? Probably not. If these guys with great stats were so good, how did their teams become so much better after they left? These guys don't hit behind the runner, they strike out with the game on the line and they don't run into the stands to catch a pop-up. But they get good stats, usually by getting three-run homers in a 12-2 game or by padding their average when their team already is out of the playoff race.

If Tejada's so great, why has Baltimore continued to be lousy with him? Why has Oakland continued to be a contender WITHOUT him? We can conclude that, yes, he gets good stats, but he doesn't really help your team all that much.
And it's no coincidence the Sox won the series after Frank Thomas got injured!!!!!

If LeBron leaves the Cavs after this year, they're my pick to win the NBA Championship! He's all show, doesn't help his team!

I think somebody is forgetting that Baseball is a TEAM sport. For every AB Miggy has, eight other ABs are taken by somebody else on the team. There are also these things called pitchers. You also seem to forget that CLee, Maggs, and Nomars teams all got a lot in return for them. Of course Maggs wasn't traded, but he did free up money to be used elsewhere. Of course a team of scrubs with Miggy isn't going to do as well as a team of above average talent but no superstars, but a team of above average talent with Miggy will do even better than that.

Jjav829
12-12-2005, 02:56 PM
Are you Tejada's agent? If not, how can you hold the highest-paid player on the team blameless for such a colossal collapse? How did he have "no part" in this team going from having one of the best records in baseball in late May to having no hope for the playoffs less than two months later?

Last I checked, one player does not make or break a team. Tejada did what he could. Unless he suddenly develops 3 or 4 great pitches and the ability to pitch every day as well as play every single defensive position, he isn't making or breaking the team by himself.

Tejada is getting a ridiculous amount of money from the Orioles. If you're paying someone that much, the least you can expect is that the guy will help prevent the clubhouse from splintering during rough times.

And whose to say he didn't? The "rough times" all came from teribble pitching. The Orioles had a 4.56 team ERA last year! Only 7 teams in baseball had worse ERAs.

Pitching was not entirely to blame for Baltimore's collapse. Several times, Tejada failed to come up with key hits against the White Sox and he also failed in the clutch against other teams.

Oh damn. There goes my argument. "Several" times out of the hundreds of clutch at-bats Tejada had he failed to come up with key hits. Well if the guy can't hit 1.000 in clutch situations, then what good is he?

Some guys get good stats but their teams tend to under-achieve. Carlos Lee, Magglio and Nomar immediately come to mind. As soon as they left teams they had been with for many years, their former teams all of a sudden won the World Series. Coincidence? Probably not. If these guys with great stats were so good, how did their teams become so much better after they left? These guys don't hit behind the runner, they strike out with the game on the line and they don't run into the stands to catch a pop-up. But they get good stats, usually by getting three-run homers in a 12-2 game or by padding their average when their team already is out of the playoff race.

Are you Juan Uribe's agent? When you can prove to me that Tejada's stats all come in 12-2 games, come back and let me know. Until then, that means nothing. The Sox didn't win the World Series because Magglio and Lee left. The Sox won the Series because the pitching became a lot better due to the payroll freed up by those two leaving and the fact that the overall team was improved.

If Tejada's so great, why has Baltimore continued to be lousy with him? Why has Oakland continued to be a contender WITHOUT him? We can conclude that, yes, he gets good stats, but he doesn't really help your team all that much.

Gee, could it be the Orioles lack of good pitching? Nah, probably those "several" times Tejada didn't come through in the clutch.

And you think maybe the A's have continued to contend without him because they have, uhh, what's the word I'm looking for? Someone help me out. Oh yeah: Pitching.

You can come to whatever absurd conclusions you want to, but don't include me (or anyone else here judging by the reaction) in your conclusions. You concluded that, not "we."

kwolf68
12-12-2005, 04:46 PM
NO NO NO.

I love the Mackowiak deal. LOVE IT. LOVE IT. LOVE IT. I'm still cool on dealing Dani and Gio and A-Ro, but Thome is a major catch.

We have effectively IMPROVED The World Champions. IMPROVED IT. Mack is a better all around player than Geoff Blum and Thome is well, more than way better than Crazy Carl.

Add in B-Mac. Jose struggled the first half of last year. Expect him to come out the gates dominating people. Contrares will win 20+ next year. He now owns the confidence needed to go with his great stuff.

Garland faded a bit down the stretch last year, but remember that had his pen not blown games in KC and Minnesota he wins 20 games easy. He proved his mettle in the Angels game and then the Houston game when he started off slow, but gritted his way back into that game.

I don't expect Uribe and Crede to hit .220 in the first half next year either. I love this team exactly how it stands right now, except I would like to find another lefty and am not sure who we'll run in the 2-hole (Probabaly Gooch again).

But at the end of the day, we can run our pitchers out of town. Tejada is a great player, but Garland is too valuable to deal WITH a shortstop with the best arm in the game who was really coming on. Uribe has very good upside.

Please keep in mind, we don't need a long term situation at short stop anyway. We have two bright prospects in Lopez and Valido in the minors who will be ready should we trade Juan one day or he leaves via free agency, but I honestly see a guy in Juan that could anchor our middle infield for the next 5 or 6 years.

Miggy is good, but he doesn't fit the situation. I nix the trade. :gulp:

caulfield12
12-12-2005, 04:47 PM
And it's no coincidence the Sox won the series after Frank Thomas got injured!!!!!

If LeBron leaves the Cavs after this year, they're my pick to win the NBA Championship! He's all show, doesn't help his team!

I think somebody is forgetting that Baseball is a TEAM sport. For every AB Miggy has, eight other ABs are taken by somebody else on the team. There are also these things called pitchers. You also seem to forget that CLee, Maggs, and Nomars teams all got a lot in return for them. Of course Maggs wasn't traded, but he did free up money to be used elsewhere. Of course a team of scrubs with Miggy isn't going to do as well as a team of above average talent but no superstars, but a team of above average talent with Miggy will do even better than that.



The same arguments have been applied to the Mariners teams after A-Rod and Griffey left. They have not won any championships since, lol.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-13-2005, 01:22 AM
Here's a good "would you trade...." for ya.

Before the White Sox dealt Aaron Rowand to the Phillies for Jim Thome, would you RATHER have made the following move;

Aaron Rowand, Brandon McCarthy, Brian Anderson, and cash
for
Juan Pierre and Carlos Delgado?

We'd be looking at the following line-up....

1) Podsednik - LF/CF
2) Pierre - CF/LF
3) Delgado - DH/1B
4) Konerko - 1B/DH
5) Dye - RF
6) Iguchi - 2B
7) Pierzynski - C
8) Crede - 3B
9) Uribe - SS

...instead of what we have now (which isn't bad but still)....

1) Podsednik - LF/CF
2) Iguchi - 2B
3) Thome - DH
4) Konerko - 1B
5) Dye - RF
6) Pierzynski - C
7) Crede - 3B
8) Brian Anderson - CF/LF
9) Uribe - SS


I think the first line-up would've given Ozzie a lot more flexibility at 1B. Konerko would be able to get more days to DH since Delgado's defense is very solid (some may say it's better than Konerko's, but I prefer Konerko's experience with out current infield over better range from someone else).


Just an idea guys. Don't kill me for thinking about it.

IowaSox1971
12-13-2005, 02:05 AM
Last I checked, one player does not make or break a team. Tejada did what he could. Unless he suddenly develops 3 or 4 great pitches and the ability to pitch every day as well as play every single defensive position, he isn't making or breaking the team by himself.



And whose to say he didn't? The "rough times" all came from teribble pitching. The Orioles had a 4.56 team ERA last year! Only 7 teams in baseball had worse ERAs.



Oh damn. There goes my argument. "Several" times out of the hundreds of clutch at-bats Tejada had he failed to come up with key hits. Well if the guy can't hit 1.000 in clutch situations, then what good is he?



Are you Juan Uribe's agent? When you can prove to me that Tejada's stats all come in 12-2 games, come back and let me know. Until then, that means nothing. The Sox didn't win the World Series because Magglio and Lee left. The Sox won the Series because the pitching became a lot better due to the payroll freed up by those two leaving and the fact that the overall team was improved.



Gee, could it be the Orioles lack of good pitching? Nah, probably those "several" times Tejada didn't come through in the clutch.

And you think maybe the A's have continued to contend without him because they have, uhh, what's the word I'm looking for? Someone help me out. Oh yeah: Pitching.

You can come to whatever absurd conclusions you want to, but don't include me (or anyone else here judging by the reaction) in your conclusions. You concluded that, not "we."



You're basically proving my point when you emphasize the importance of pitching.

If you have a strong, deep pitching staff, you're going to be in contention. If you don't have the pitching, you probably won't contend. Strong pitching is much more important than having a guy with great offensive stats.

Yet, some of you advocate giving up one of our top pitchers and a pretty good shortstop for a guy who has not really had any noticeable positive effect on his teams' won-lost records. If Tejada can't help a team without a deep pitching staff win, then why hurt your pitching depth to get him?

caulfield12
12-13-2005, 07:57 AM
Aaron Rowand, Brandon McCarthy, Brian Anderson, and cash
for
Juan Pierre and Carlos Delgado?Ļ


Have you lost your mind? Rowand for Pierre fine, we would be getting rid of Rowandīs contract and renting Pierre for the 2006 season, that would be okay, although arguable either way.

Then you have McCarthy, Anderson AND CASH

for Delgado...?

Delgado already has a huge contract, why would we pay them money to take a contract that they want to shed off their hands...???

Second, McCarthy is the only stud pitcher the White Sox are guaranteed of having after 2007. Who do you propose would be out there and affordable with starting pitching at these prices...and the Sox production from minor league pitching prospects pretty much negligible in the last decade after Buehrle, Kip Wells, Josh Fogg and Garland, who came from the Cubs.

Anderson and Willie Harris for Delgado, sure.

We have Chris Young, Owens and Sweeney for back-up still.

But the Marlins would ask for Cotts, and we can no longer part with him as we donīt have that second lefty yet. Not to mention that Cotts might figure in as a starter if we lose both Contreras and Garland after next season.

But McCarthy developing into an affordable stud pitcher is the key to this team competing from 2008-2010. We cannot part with him, period.

Jjav829
12-13-2005, 11:47 AM
You're basically proving my point when you emphasize the importance of pitching.
Huh? Since when does your point have anything to do with pitching? Let's look at your post again.

Tejada compiles good stats, but he has never gotten past the first round of the playoffs. Is he a winner? Is he a team player? How could he have allowed the Orioles to fall apart last season? Or was he a reason that the team fell apart? Also, how much of Palmeiro's initial allegations that linked Tejada to his positive steroid test were true? There are a lot of questions about this guy.Baltimore was 30-16 at one point last year and was challenging us for the best record in the majors ... then everything fell completely apart. And now he wants to be traded. I just wonder how he would have handled things last season with the White Sox, when our 15-game lead almost disappeared. Would he have been a guy to help hold things together, or would he have made a tough situation worse?
Count the times the word "pitching" is used. 0. Your point had nothing to do with pitching.

You might want to look behind you while you are backpedaling to make sure you don't trip over anything.

If you have a strong, deep pitching staff, you're going to be in contention. If you don't have the pitching, you probably won't contend. Strong pitching is much more important than having a guy with great offensive stats.

Yet, some of you advocate giving up one of our top pitchers and a pretty good shortstop for a guy who has not really had any noticeable positive effect on his teams' won-lost records. If Tejada can't help a team without a deep pitching staff win, then why hurt your pitching depth to get him?
Absolutely agree with the first part. And as I have stated before, I would only do a trade of Garland + Uribe for Tejada if we were able to bring in a capable replacement for Garland. If doing that trade meant we had to keep El Duque in the rotation, with McCarthy already in there, then I wouldn't be in favor of that trade. But if we could trade Garland and Uribe for Tejada, then sign a decent replacement for Garland, I would absolutely make that trade. Unfortunately, we probably don't have the ability to make that trade and add another pitcher given that our payroll is already about as high as it is going to go.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-13-2005, 01:17 PM
Aaron Rowand, Brandon McCarthy, Brian Anderson, and cash
for
Juan Pierre and Carlos Delgado?¨


Have you lost your mind? Rowand for Pierre fine, we would be getting rid of Rowand´s contract and renting Pierre for the 2006 season, that would be okay, although arguable either way.

Then you have McCarthy, Anderson AND CASH

for Delgado...?

Delgado already has a huge contract, why would we pay them money to take a contract that they want to shed off their hands...???

Second, McCarthy is the only stud pitcher the White Sox are guaranteed of having after 2007. Who do you propose would be out there and affordable with starting pitching at these prices...and the Sox production from minor league pitching prospects pretty much negligible in the last decade after Buehrle, Kip Wells, Josh Fogg and Garland, who came from the Cubs.

Anderson and Willie Harris for Delgado, sure.

We have Chris Young, Owens and Sweeney for back-up still.

But the Marlins would ask for Cotts, and we can no longer part with him as we don´t have that second lefty yet. Not to mention that Cotts might figure in as a starter if we lose both Contreras and Garland after next season.

But McCarthy developing into an affordable stud pitcher is the key to this team competing from 2008-2010. We cannot part with him, period.


Brian Anderson is probably the most expandible player on the team. He plays a position that can easily be replaced and it can be done from within. So technically, it would be McCarthy for Delgado. I love the kid and his stuff looks good, but you said it yourself, we are not known for having developed great starting pitchers, what makes you think McCarthy will be great?

And with the acquisition of Juan Pierre, after signing him long-term, you make guys like Ryan Sweeney, Chris Young, etc., expandible and you could trade one of them for a promising starting pitcher or two.

Delgado would have been a better acquisition than Thome, that's obvious. Health, age, defense, etc., are the reasons why. He isn't a clubhouse cancer and he speaks Spanish which is probably the first language in America as far as our current clubhouse is concerned, so that wouldn't matter either.

Oh, and the cash that we would send them would be to cover close to half of Garland's $7+ mill he will be receiving. Because remember, the Marlins don't want any salary in return for these guys they are trading.

caulfield12
12-13-2005, 02:05 PM
Brian Anderson is probably the most expandible player on the team. He plays a position that can easily be replaced and it can be done from within. So technically, it would be McCarthy for Delgado. I love the kid and his stuff looks good, but you said it yourself, we are not known for having developed great starting pitchers, what makes you think McCarthy will be great?

And with the acquisition of Juan Pierre, after signing him long-term, you make guys like Ryan Sweeney, Chris Young, etc., expandible and you could trade one of them for a promising starting pitcher or two.

Delgado would have been a better acquisition than Thome, that's obvious. Health, age, defense, etc., are the reasons why. He isn't a clubhouse cancer and he speaks Spanish which is probably the first language in America as far as our current clubhouse is concerned, so that wouldn't matter either.

Oh, and the cash that we would send them would be to cover close to half of Garland's $7+ mill he will be receiving. Because remember, the Marlins don't want any salary in return for these guys they are trading.

Anderson is not so expendible, because Chris Young could become the next Jimmy Hurst or Borchard. The Phillies asked for Anderson and were given Rowand instead. Thereīs no guarantee. Owens and certainly Sweeney are not true CFers.

McCarthy has the last two months of the season, when he had a sub-2.00 ERA for over 40 innings as a starter. He shut down teams like the Red Sox and Rangers and went pitch for pitch with Johan Santana. Hands down, he was our second best pitcher the final six weeks, behind Contreras. Maybe even ahead of him statistically.

Signing Pierre long-term would leave our OF without enough power. Letīs say Dye slumps or is injured, we would have 20 homers combined from our outfield.

Delgado is making twice as much as Thome and is not without controversy...nobody in baseball could argue that Delgado is a better teammate than Thome.

Donīt follow your last point....how is Garland involved in this? The Marlins are taking prospects from other teams....and the White Sox have never sent money the other way in a trade, so itīs almost pointless to even speculate about.

NardiWasHere
12-13-2005, 02:14 PM
Count the times the word "pitching" is used. 0. Your point had nothing to do with pitching.
You might want to look behind you while you are backpedaling to make sure you don't trip over anything.

Well played Jjav, well played.

IowaSox1971
12-13-2005, 06:44 PM
Huh? Since when does your point have anything to do with pitching? Let's look at your post again.


Count the times the word "pitching" is used. 0. Your point had nothing to do with pitching.

You might want to look behind you while you are backpedaling to make sure you don't trip over anything.


Absolutely agree with the first part. And as I have stated before, I would only do a trade of Garland + Uribe for Tejada if we were able to bring in a capable replacement for Garland. If doing that trade meant we had to keep El Duque in the rotation, with McCarthy already in there, then I wouldn't be in favor of that trade. But if we could trade Garland and Uribe for Tejada, then sign a decent replacement for Garland, I would absolutely make that trade. Unfortunately, we probably don't have the ability to make that trade and add another pitcher given that our payroll is already about as high as it is going to go.


Why does "pitching" have to be used in the original post? The point was that Tejada's former team has remained a strong playoff contender since he left and his current team is about as bad as it was, if not worse, before he signed. If it had to be spelled out to you that pitching, not Tejada, was the biggest factor in each team's performance, then perhaps you don't know as much as you think you do.

Also, you kind of shoot your own argument down when you say that if we made this trade for Tejada, then we would have to sign another pitcher to take Garland's spot. If Tejada's so great, why should we have to make another trade or free agent signing to make up for his acquisition? And Tejada makes so much money that it probably would be impossible to add more quality players if he joined the roster. In fact, we'd probably have to get rid of El Duque and another player, just to afford having Tejada on the team.

Tejada makes too much money and makes too little of a difference in his team's success for us to make a trade like this. We've tried this formula before, and it didn't work. Remember Albert Belle in 1998? Yes, Belle had good stats, but most of those homers and RBIs came after we were already out of the race. He made so much money, we couldn't afford to put together a good pitching staff. The same thing probably would happen if we got Tejada.

The formula we used this season worked fine, but now some people think we should try doing what we did, without much success, in the past.

NardiWasHere
12-13-2005, 11:49 PM
Also, you kind of shoot your own argument down when you say that if we made this trade for Tejada, then we would have to sign another pitcher to take Garland's spot. If Tejada's so great, why should we have to make another trade or free agent signing to make up for his acquisition?

:?:
This is how a trade works....
-You trade someone, you get someone in return.
-Sometimes you need to give up multiple players for one player to make it work.
-When you give up 2 players for 1, you always need to fill that second spot on the roster.

Tejada being great has nothing to do with filling a pitcher's spot in the rotation.

Jjav829
12-14-2005, 12:46 AM
Why does "pitching" have to be used in the original post? The point was that Tejada's former team has remained a strong playoff contender since he left and his current team is about as bad as it was, if not worse, before he signed. If it had to be spelled out to you that pitching, not Tejada, was the biggest factor in each team's performance, then perhaps you don't know as much as you think you do.

Keep backpedaling. Just watch out for any sudden dropoffs. Your original point was that Tejada, and I quote, "allowed the Orioles to fall apart last season." Then you questioned how he would have handled the Sox when our 15-game lead almost disappeared. Yet now you say that pitching is the reason the Orioles are bad and the reason the A's remained good. Nice try. Don't try to change your argument now. You incorrectly tried to blame Tejada for the Orioles falling apart. Then once you were corrected, you tried to say that Tejada isn't more important than pitching. So which is it? Did Tejada "allow the Orioles to fall apart last season?" Or did the Orioles lack of pitching come back to haunt them? It's one or the other and so far you've tried to argue both in this thread; one of those coming after your other argument was proven to be ridiculous.

Also, you kind of shoot your own argument down when you say that if we made this trade for Tejada, then we would have to sign another pitcher to take Garland's spot. If Tejada's so great, why should we have to make another trade or free agent signing to make up for his acquisition? And Tejada makes so much money that it probably would be impossible to add more quality players if he joined the roster. In fact, we'd probably have to get rid of El Duque and another player, just to afford having Tejada on the team.

Tejada makes too much money and makes too little of a difference in his team's success for us to make a trade like this. We've tried this formula before, and it didn't work. Remember Albert Belle in 1998? Yes, Belle had good stats, but most of those homers and RBIs came after we were already out of the race. He made so much money, we couldn't afford to put together a good pitching staff. The same thing probably would happen if we got Tejada.

The formula we used this season worked fine, but now some people think we should try doing what we did, without much success, in the past.

Do I really need to explain this? Tejada is better than Uribe. Garland is a free agent after this season and may be asking for an unreasonably high contract. Thus, you use Garland's trade value to significantly upgrade at shortstop and then sign another pitcher to replace Garland. Fairly simple idea. At least I thought...

Tragg
12-14-2005, 02:05 AM
FINALLY a thread that discusses getting a TOP player to the Sox - a difference maker.
Sure beats trading away excellent starting pitchers and top prospects for Pierre, Vasquez, Green, Burnett, yada, yada, yada and every other mediocrity the other team is trying to dump.

kittle42
12-14-2005, 02:06 AM
FINALLY a thread that discusses getting a TOP player to the Sox - a difference maker.
Sure beats trading away excellent starting pitchers and top prospects for mediocrities like Pierre, Vasquez, Burnett, yada, yada, yada.

Wow. You're on a tear tonight.

gowhitesox
12-17-2005, 02:58 AM
I'd leave things the way the are for now. We already have a great pitching staff don't change it anymore, unless there would be an injury during spring training.