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soxfanatlanta
12-07-2005, 07:52 AM
Bobby Valentine, in an effort to make himself relevant in the U.S. claims that his team could beat the Sox:

Bobby Valentine wants to see the top teams in the United States and Japan play each other to determine a true world champion, and he thinks his Chiba Lotte Marines could have challenged the Chicago White Sox this year.

Here is the rest of the story linky (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2250562)

No disrespect to Japanese players, I seem to remember one doing very well in Chicago :smile: But I cannot see them winning the best out of seven. Does anybody know anything about the Chiba Lotte Marines? Is there any credence to him claims, or is he being a publicity Ho?

TomSkilling
12-07-2005, 07:59 AM
This is Bobby Valentine. The guy loves attention. Remember when he was with the Mets and dressed up as Magnum P.I. after being kicked out of a game so that he could come back to the dugout incognito? Yeah I think he's full of b.s. here.

In a series they would have no chance. It's not like they're the cuban nat'l team with Contreras at the front of the rotation against the Orioles for a game.




Is there any credence to him claims, or is he being a publicity Ho?

IlliniSox4Life
12-07-2005, 08:20 AM
Does anybody know anything about the Chiba Lotte Marines? Is there any credence to him claims, or is he being a publicity Ho?

I know they play in Japan, and there's a reason they aren't playing in the United States where they could make a lot more money.

He was saying this stuff earlier too, and whil he seems to have coached a good team over there in Japan, there's no way the beat the Sox.

Bobby Valentine wants to see the top teams in the United States and Japan play each other to determine a true world champion

Well, if he really wanted to do that, why not play the best team from Venezuela, Cuba, Canada, etc. If his argument that the Sox aren't a true world champion is that they didn't play any international teams other than the Jays than he should be arguing for more teams to play them. The fact is we are the world champions because MLB has the best players from all over the world. We have players from America, Japan, etc, etc, etc. If they were any better, they'd be over here already. A few of them may be and would rather play there or just haven't been given a chance, but not all of them.

oeo
12-07-2005, 09:50 AM
So, what he's saying is that this is not a real World Championship, but Japan vs. the US is? That's two nations Bobby, not the whole globe. I would really like to see his team compete with the Royals.

bobowhite
12-07-2005, 10:45 AM
I may be one of the best equipped people here to answer this so let me put in my thoughts.

A) Bobby Valentine consistently pumped up his guys always convincing them they could do more than they or anyone else thought. That's just his management style. He took a bunch of nobodies with zero expectations and made them believe and perform. He preaches "Team, Team, TEAM!!!" and practices what he preaches. I've spoken with him twice on the phone and even in just casual conversation this attitude comes through. He's great with a middling team, lousy for a team of stars. My opinion is that he's just saying these things to pump his guys up and make them believe in themselves. If it tweaks the nose of a few White Sox fans, then that's unintended but not terrible. Everyone of his players has read those comments and each believes that if they work together, they can beat anyone. I'm willing to let this one slide.

B) As far as the Marines comparing to the White Sox I'd say not likely. The Sox would have difficulties with Marine Stadium because it's about as weather friendly as Candlestick Park was and the layout definately reminds me of McAfee Stadium (home of the A's.) Lots of foul ground, high fences and deep power alleys. Further, every member of the Marines can and will bunt, either for a sac or for a hit. If the Sox have one defensive weakness it's that PK is not very agressive fielding bunts. The Marines would know that and probably steal at least one game in a Series based on that. Several of the 2005 Sox looked hopeless when assigned a bunting responsibility (Rowand and Crede most prominently.) The Sox pitching far outclasses the Marines and the Sox have a lot more power and better players in most positions.

Defense even, small ball edge Marines, power ball big edge Sox, pitching big edge Sox. In a seven game series, I'd say Sox in five, maybe six.

bobowhite
12-07-2005, 01:54 PM
Hey, I may not have made this clear. I don't blame Bobby Valentine for talking up his team. He's doing his job, IMO. I haven't seen anything he said negative about the White Sox, just that he'd like a shot at them.

Jerko
12-07-2005, 02:24 PM
Hey, I may not have made this clear. I don't blame Bobby Valentine for talking up his team. He's doing his job, IMO. I haven't seen anything he said negative about the White Sox, just that he'd like a shot at them.

IIRC, I think he said that before the Sox even won the World Series, so even if he was trying to diss somebody, it wasn't the Sox, per se. He was just saying that stuff "in general".

StepsInSC
12-07-2005, 03:33 PM
I know they play in Japan, and there's a reason they aren't playing in the United States where they could make a lot more money.


While you are correct, if you're saying that "reason" is because they can't cut it, I would have to disagree. In 2004 the Japan team went 3-5 against a team of MLB all stars.

Sure more Japanese ballplayers are wanting to come to the MLB, this is still Japan and the United States, two countries that could not be more opposite. Living in the US, for most Japanese, is hell, just like living in Japan is for many Americans. No food you like, you don't speak the language, your inner circle of family and friends are thousands of miles away....America is a scary place to many.

Personally I'd like to see it, just for kicks. If they played any team other than the Sox, I'd root for them. Whatever they may typically lack in what we think of as "God-given talent", you won't find a Japanese player that doesn't know the fundamentals; one who can't lay down a bunt, hit a relay man, or know where to go with the ball when it's hit his way. Something I wish more MLB players emphasized, or at least practiced.

JohnBasedowYoda
12-07-2005, 08:01 PM
Didn't see this posted. From yahoo sports.

(http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AlgkANNQJQr1P20_uK50nP4U0bYF?slug=ap-valentine-wbc&prov=ap&type=lgns)http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AlgkANNQJQr1P20_uK50nP4U0bYF?slug=ap-valentine-wbc&prov=ap&type=lgns[/url][url="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AlgkANNQJQr1P20_uK50nP4U0bYF?slug=ap-valentine-wbc&prov=ap&type=lgns"]
(http://http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AlgkANNQJQr1P20_uK50nP4U0bYF?slug=ap-valentine-wbc&prov=ap&type=lgns)
This guy thinks the winner in japan could've been a decent challenge to the white sox. He goes as far as saying they had better pitching than we did (control wise).

ChiSoxIn06
12-07-2005, 08:04 PM
Consider the source...it's coming from Bobby Valentine...He was always hating on the Sox when he was with ESPN and is completely full of himself...If his pitchers are so talented why aren't they playing ball here?

JermaineDye05
12-07-2005, 08:04 PM
yeah I saw that too, pretty bold statement, but hell gotta respect them, they won the world series too, cant really have a game against them considering Crazy Carl and A-Row arent with the team anymore so we're missing two guys from the roster

Ventura Fan 23
12-07-2005, 08:12 PM
That Japanese championship team is a bunch of n00bs compared to our Sox.

JohnBasedowYoda
12-07-2005, 08:25 PM
Consider the source...it's coming from Bobby Valentine...He was always hating on the Sox when he was with ESPN and is completely full of himself...If his pitchers are so talented why aren't they playing ball here?

I'm not that familiar with the dude. Now that I know he's from ESPN i'm not suprised

buehrle4cy05
12-07-2005, 08:27 PM
There's a reason why Valentine will be Sammy Sosa's future manager.

IlliniSox4Life
12-07-2005, 08:30 PM
While you are correct, if you're saying that "reason" is because they can't cut it, I would have to disagree. In 2004 the Japan team went 3-5 against a team of MLB all stars.

Sure more Japanese ballplayers are wanting to come to the MLB, this is still Japan and the United States, two countries that could not be more opposite. Living in the US, for most Japanese, is hell, just like living in Japan is for many Americans. No food you like, you don't speak the language, your inner circle of family and friends are thousands of miles away....America is a scary place to many.

Personally I'd like to see it, just for kicks. If they played any team other than the Sox, I'd root for them. Whatever they may typically lack in what we think of as "God-given talent", you won't find a Japanese player that doesn't know the fundamentals; one who can't lay down a bunt, hit a relay man, or know where to go with the ball when it's hit his way. Something I wish more MLB players emphasized, or at least practiced.

Give me a break. It is not hell living in either place for anyone. A little uncomftorable and takes some adjusting too? Yes, but hell? No. Would some of them be afraid of coming over here? Yeah, probably. Have enough other players already come over for them to realize the transition isn't that bad? Yeah, probably.

And I'm not saying they wouldn't put up a good fight, but they went 3-5 on their home turf, and I would say they have an even bigger homefield advantage considering they're in Japan and the all stars had to fly there.
The worst home records in MLB this year were 34-47 by Kansas City and Pittsburgh. Even that is a better winning percentage than 3-5 (.375). Heck, only 1 MLB team had a worse winning percentage than that (Kansas City). It's not a major accomplishment, but I never said the guys suck.

ChiSoxIn06
12-07-2005, 08:31 PM
There's a reason why Valentine will be Sammy Sosa's future manager.

True that!

getonbckthr
12-07-2005, 08:56 PM
I want no part of the Japanese champs. What do we have to prove? If we win people will say,"well they are major leaguers for a reason." If we lose, "see they were just a fluke and now they embarressed the country." We have nothing to gain and everything to lose, where on the otherhand Japan has nothing to lose and everything to gain.

bobowhite
12-07-2005, 09:41 PM
While you are correct, if you're saying that "reason" is because they can't cut it, I would have to disagree. In 2004 the Japan team went 3-5 against a team of MLB all stars.

That was a Japanese All-Star team (I think Iguchi was on it.) It is an annual series and having seen a bunch of those games I wouldn't call that a fair comparison.


Sure more Japanese ballplayers are wanting to come to the MLB, this is still Japan and the United States, two countries that could not be more opposite. Living in the US, for most Japanese, is hell, just like living in Japan is for many Americans. No food you like, you don't speak the language, your inner circle of family and friends are thousands of miles away....America is a scary place to many.

Hell? No. Very difficult, yes. The time you are on the field is the easiest part. Off the field, everything is different. If I didn't speak the language, I would find living in Japan very difficult. As it is, there were constant issues, one does learn to deal with them or sometimes, just laugh.


Personally I'd like to see it, just for kicks. If they played any team other than the Sox, I'd root for them. Whatever they may typically lack in what we think of as "God-given talent", you won't find a Japanese player that doesn't know the fundamentals; one who can't lay down a bunt, hit a relay man, or know where to go with the ball when it's hit his way. Something I wish more MLB players emphasized, or at least practiced.

I think the White Sox should invite Lotte to spring training. Japanese teams do occasionally come to ST and the White Sox playing a series of games against the Marines would expose the White Sox players to what incredibly sound fundamental baseball can do. It'd make up somewhat for the WBC absences, IMHO.

StepsInSC
12-07-2005, 10:32 PM
That was a Japanese All-Star team (I think Iguchi was on it.) It is an annual series and having seen a bunch of those games I wouldn't call that a fair comparison.


Yes they were both teams of all-stars, my general point was it wasn't a total blowout. I still believe it's a fair comparison since neither the Marines nor White Sox are "all-star" teams.


Hell? No. Very difficult, yes. The time you are on the field is the easiest part. Off the field, everything is different. If I didn't speak the language, I would find living in Japan very difficult. As it is, there were constant issues, one does learn to deal with them or sometimes, just laugh.

C'mon, "Hell" was a hyperbole. Remember Ben Oglivie? He signed on with a Japanese club, made it through a bit of preseason, then turned around and came home w/o telling anyone in Japan. He just up and fled the entire country. Even as someone who spoke the language, I know it's not a place I could live permanently. Outside of perhaps Tokyo, it would get to me...constantly being an outsider. I havn't lived there for a long enough time to stopped having been treated as a 'guest' and therefore not treated as royalty, so I won't comment too much on it.

'Hell' was a strong word, but I think from a anthropology perspective it's an appropriate exaggeration - the US and Japan are on very opposite ends of the spectrum in many qualities and characteristics of societies. Several anthropologists have labeled Japan as the hardest industrialized country for Americans to live in. Granted it's changing a lot.


Give me a break. It is not hell living in either place for anyone. A little uncomftorable and takes some adjusting too? Yes, but hell? No. Would some of them be afraid of coming over here? Yeah, probably. Have enough other players already come over for them to realize the transition isn't that bad? Yeah, probably.

And I'm not saying they wouldn't put up a good fight, but they went 3-5 on their home turf, and I would say they have an even bigger homefield advantage considering they're in Japan and the all stars had to fly there.
The worst home records in MLB this year were 34-47 by Kansas City and Pittsburgh. Even that is a better winning percentage than 3-5 (.375). Heck, only 1 MLB team had a worse winning percentage than that (Kansas City). It's not a major accomplishment, but I never said the guys suck.


Yeah you're right, it's not a great winning percentage. I guess my general point was there are other factors than just talent. The New York Mets are now recruiting Japanese high school players, but many are reluctant. The most comfortable avenue for Japanes ballplayers, by far, is still to go into the Japanese professional leagues.

Bottom line is this. As bobowhite said I'd love to see it. I don't think it'd be a matter of "world champs" as Valentine said, but just some more friendly competition between two countries that absolutely love baseball.

bobowhite
12-07-2005, 11:11 PM
C'mon, "Hell" was a hyperbole. Remember Ben Oglivie? He signed on with a Japanese club, made it through a bit of preseason, then turned around and came home w/o telling anyone in Japan. He just up and fled the entire country. Even as someone who spoke the language, I know it's not a place I could live permanently. Outside of perhaps Tokyo, it would get to me...constantly being an outsider. I havn't lived there for a long enough time to stopped having been treated as a 'guest' and therefore not treated as royalty, so I won't comment too much on it.

I got the word from Derrick Lee's uncle and Tom Paciorek's brother was at the table as well. Ben Oglivie got accused one too many times of smuggling marijuana. Traveling around Japan in non-tourist zones and encountering officialdom, it's just something that happens and you get used to. They'll seize your bags, take everything out and check through it, force you to empty your pockets and then identify every item you've got. Happened to me everytime I traveled between Okinawa (ST) and the mainland. I always try to help US military kids being harassed like that (by translating and settling them down), black men and redheads always get the worst of it. One also learns to start accumulating business cards in your luggage, right on top from influential people (I carried two government officials and the police chief of Nagoya.) Evidently Oglivie didn't like it, his interpreter let him get to far away to help and he got shoved a few times. Secondhand, but reliable sources.

bobowhite
12-07-2005, 11:13 PM
'Hell' was a strong word, but I think from a anthropology perspective it's an appropriate exaggeration - the US and Japan are on very opposite ends of the spectrum in many qualities and characteristics of societies. Several anthropologists have labeled Japan as the hardest industrialized country for Americans to live in. Granted it's changing a lot.

I concur.

StepsInSC
12-07-2005, 11:18 PM
I got the word from Derrick Lee's uncle and Tom Paciorek's brother was at the table as well. Ben Oglivie got accused one too many times of smuggling marijuana. Traveling around Japan in non-tourist zones and encountering officialdom, it's just something that happens and you get used to. They'll seize your bags, take everything out and check through it, force you to empty your pockets and then identify every item you've got. Happened to me everytime I traveled between Okinawa (ST) and the mainland. I always try to help US military kids being harassed like that (by translating and settling them down), black men and redheads always get the worst of it. One also learns to start accumulating business cards in your luggage, right on top from influential people (I carried two government officials and the police chief of Nagoya.) Evidently Oglivie didn't like it, his interpreter let him get to far away to help and he got shoved a few times. Secondhand, but reliable sources.

That's fascinating. I was unaware of that re: Oglivie. I just read an interview with him where he said he was mentally fatigued from being in such an alien environment. Pretty ambiguous.

ElDuque26
12-07-2005, 11:24 PM
I'm not that familiar with the dude. Now that I know he's from ESPN i'm not suprised

Before his stint with BBTN and ESPN he was the manager of the mets for a good amount of time and led them to the WS against the yankees in 2000(?). Funny guy, not great manager but probably exagerating some of the stuff about his pitchers matching up w/ ours...we could always ask Tad about that teams talent!:smile:

veeter
12-08-2005, 08:56 AM
Bobby Valentine is an idiot.

bobowhite
12-08-2005, 03:35 PM
That's fascinating. I was unaware of that re: Oglivie. I just read an interview with him where he said he was mentally fatigued from being in such an alien environment. Pretty ambiguous.


Hey, after rereading I realize I may have left open the wrong impression here. I have no doubt that Oglivie was not carrying any illegal drugs. (Double negative, not helping here.)

I am certainly not accusing Oglivie of carrying or using drugs. In fact, quite the opposite. The Japanese customs people treat every American as if they are a possible drug courier and give them a very thorough going over regardless of their status as a professional athlete.

I happen to know that Mike Tyson was stopped when he was leaving Tokyo after losing to Buster Douglas. Luckily, he had several people with him (very good intepreters and such) who were able to convince the Japanese customs people that Mike Tyson was a famous person and not your run-of-the-mill flake. I think they were Don King's hirees.

bobowhite
12-08-2005, 03:36 PM
Bobby Valentine is an idiot.

Disagree here. He's doing his job; pumping up his own team.

StepsInSC
12-08-2005, 03:40 PM
Hey, after rereading I realize I may have left open the wrong impression here. I have no doubt that Oglivie was not carrying any illegal drugs. (Double negative, not helping here.)

I am certainly not accusing Oglivie of carrying or using drugs. In fact, quite the opposite. The Japanese customs people treat every American as if they are a possible drug courier and give them a very thorough going over regardless of their status as a professional athlete.

I happen to know that Mike Tyson was stopped when he was leaving Tokyo after losing to Buster Douglas. Luckily, he had several people with him (very good intepreters and such) who were able to convince the Japanese customs people that Mike Tyson was a famous person and not your run-of-the-mill flake. I think they were Don King's hirees.

Don't worry, I understood.

soxwon
12-08-2005, 10:11 PM
I know they play in Japan, and there's a reason they aren't playing in the United States where they could make a lot more money.

He was saying this stuff earlier too, and whil he seems to have coached a good team over there in Japan, there's no way the beat the Sox.



Well, if he really wanted to do that, why not play the best team from Venezuela, Cuba, Canada, etc. If his argument that the Sox aren't a true world champion is that they didn't play any international teams other than the Jays than he should be arguing for more teams to play them. The fact is we are the world champions because MLB has the best players from all over the world. We have players from America, Japan, etc, etc, etc. If they were any better, they'd be over here already. A few of them may be and would rather play there or just haven't been given a chance, but not all of them.


not so fast here.
The Cubs beat us 3 games remember?

JoeClutch24
12-10-2005, 11:34 AM
In my opinion it's a complete waste of time, and this is what the World Baseball Classic is for. Bobby Valentine has always ran his mouth at stupid garbage, and this is no different. The Major Leagues are far superior to the Japanese leagues so why should this be any different, The Sox would put a real lambasting on these guys.