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Unregistered
12-07-2005, 12:29 AM
"I have much respect and love for the city and the fans, but I would have wanted my chapter to end a little bit differently than the way it ended. I think I deserve that. I was forced to move on."

The 6-foot-5-inch, 270-pound Thomas, 37, met Tuesday with Oakland and Minnesota officials and appeared fit in a jogging outfit, showing no signs of a limp as he walked briskly through the hotel lobby.

What disturbed Thomas the most was speculation he wouldn't be healthy for the 2006 season, although Sox officials carefully chose their words about Thomas' future after his second foot fracture in July.

"I'm ready to go," Thomas said. "I didn't like the reports that said I was a risk. That's not the case. No one gave me a physical to check. To call me a risk, that's a problem."


Dammit, I hate to see things with Frank end like this. After the amazing feel-good season that was '05, it sucks to see Hurt walk away feeling burned by management. I want him to be around the Sox for a long time after his career - not another ex-player who has a grudge with management. Best of luck, big guy. :(:


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-051206soxthomas,1,5568614.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

JUribe1989
12-07-2005, 12:32 AM
Dammit, I hate to see things with Frank end like this. After the amazing feel-good season that was '05, it sucks to see Hurt walk away feeling burned by management. I want him to be around the Sox for a long time after his career - not another ex-player who has a grudge with management. Best of luck, big guy. :(:


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-051206soxthomas,1,5568614.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

He got his ring, he's thrilled. I really don't see him that upset from this article. Things ended much worse with Magglio, Frank was still pretty classy about this. You always expect something like this after a player is not invited back to a team he has been on his whole career.

Huisj
12-07-2005, 12:32 AM
It's especially sad after just watching the stuff on Comcast tonight and seeing those post game interviews and the rally speech about how it was the best day of his life and how proud he was of the whole team for carrying him to the finish line to get the championship.

WhiteSox1983
12-07-2005, 12:32 AM
Yeah..... this year was bittersweet. Ultimate goal is to win the championship. And whether we like it or not, we all know that frank would have put a burden on payroll to the point where we wouldnt be able to keep konerko. But Frank will always be a white sock in my eyes.

It's Time
12-07-2005, 12:36 AM
I'm glad I started a thread last week thanking him for the memories. I knew he was gone and the most **** on player in Chicago sports history leaves pissed off.

****!!

Unregistered
12-07-2005, 12:37 AM
He got his ring, he's thrilled. I really don't see him that upset from this article. Things ended much worse with Magglio, Frank was still pretty classy about this. You always expect something like this after a player is not invited back to a team he has been on his whole career.
Yeah, "upset" is a bit of a strong word, but I couldn't think of any way else to put it. Disappointed? Saddened?

I don't want it to look like I'm calling the guy out, cause Frank is one of my all-time favorite Sox - and he has every right to be upset, I suppose. It just sucks that there's hurt feelings (pun intended?) after spending his entire career here.

ChiWhiteSox1337
12-07-2005, 12:42 AM
Yeah, I heard him say this on Sports Nite earlier. It's sad to see him leave like this. You can't really disagree with what Frank said, but at the same time you can't fault the White Sox for going down another road by acquiring Thome. It's going to be hard seeing him holding up a different jersey at a press conference in a few days(just assuming based on all of the reports), but I'm glad that there are other teams that are interested in him.

ND_Sox_Fan
12-07-2005, 12:42 AM
No big surprise that he is upset. He wanted things to end here in Chicago on his own terms - not on Kenny's. I am glad he is upset - it means he wanted to come back - he wanted to be here - he wanted to be the guy carrying the team into the playoffs this year.

I don't think he is the only one here in Chicago upset about it either.

soxfan43
12-07-2005, 12:44 AM
It's really too bad, but I understand why Frank would be pissed. But Kenny has an organization to run and Frank whether he likes it or not is a risk. I wish him the best, unless he's on an AL Central team.

Kogs35
12-07-2005, 12:49 AM
It's really too bad, but I understand why Frank would be pissed. But Kenny has an organization to run and Frank whether he likes it or not is a risk. I wish him the best, unless he's on an AL Central team.

i feel for frank and all but it hurts to say it was time to move on.

RedFoxSoxFan
12-07-2005, 12:59 AM
IMHO, I think everyone kinda sensed that this day would come, and i agree with unregistered this championship era was set in motion by the Big Man and i would feel cheated if he didn't end up with the whitesox organization one day down the road.

This one's for the memories Big Man :gulp:

KRS1
12-07-2005, 01:02 AM
Does anyone know how close Franks surgery was to the one Grant Hill had that basically ruined his career? I know a lot of people have complained about the plate insertion surgeries, and also that it was pretty much Franks only option, but does anyone see that as a factor in the rebreaking of his ankle?

Nellie_Fox
12-07-2005, 01:02 AM
...you can't fault the White Sox for going down another road by acquiring Thome.I can.

Thome had better not miss many games due to injury (the back is my concern, not the elbow) while the big man has a comeback year. Having Frank leave like this is just making me sick, and you cannot remotely compare it to Magglio. Magglio gambled, got injured, and left to chase the money. Magglio had not put up nearly Frank-like numbers for the years that Frank did. Did the Sox even see if Frank would be willing to re-sign for a low base with a lot of incentive clauses? Apparently not. Did they ask him to submit to a physical to see how he's doing? Apparently not, but they took on Thome coming off a year missed to injury based on a physical. With the $3.5 million buyout of Frank and what the Sox are picking up of Thome's contract, they are paying more than Frank's option, and that's just for next year. They have Thome for a couple more regardless of his physical status, while Frank would have been only for next year.

Can you tell I'm having a hard time accepting this?:(:

Taliesinrk
12-07-2005, 01:04 AM
I don't think I can bare the sight of what will happen. I really just don't think I could take it. While I respect Thome and Konerko a great deal and think they'll be a true power this year... there's no way in hell they could ever replace Big Frank. Frank'll always be my childhood hero and have a place in my heart. I don't think I'll ever forget my first Sox game my parents took me to and having my mom tell me not to get up to get food because Frank was going to hit a homerun. Sure enough, I got up to get food and that big bastard hit a bomb. Here's to you Frank :gulp: ... the best that I've ever seen... :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

knocko94
12-07-2005, 01:04 AM
Here's the full first paragraph, don't know why you cut off the first part.


"That door is closed," Thomas said Tuesday morning as he left the Wyndham Anatole, headquarters for baseball's winter meetings. "[The White Sox] did what they had to do. I have much respect and love for the city and the fans, but I would have wanted my chapter to end a little bit differently than the way it ended. I think I deserve that. I was forced to move on."


Does Frank think the Sox made the right move by picking up Thome, who is less of an injury threat? Was he forced to move on because of injury/desire to get more ABs? That's the way I take it.

batmanZoSo
12-07-2005, 01:05 AM
Dammit, I hate to see things with Frank end like this. After the amazing feel-good season that was '05, it sucks to see Hurt walk away feeling burned by management. I want him to be around the Sox for a long time after his career - not another ex-player who has a grudge with management. Best of luck, big guy. :(:


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-051206soxthomas,1,5568614.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

That's too bad. I understand where he comes from to an extent, but the Sox had to move on without him and he's better off somewhere else. I hope can find a niche on another team, just not against us.

ND_Sox_Fan
12-07-2005, 01:06 AM
Can you tell I'm having a hard time accepting this?:(:

You aren't the only one. Great points - it is even harder to swallow if Kenny did, in fact, not talk contract with Frank and at least give him a physical. After all, he was willing to take on Hernandez last year and Thome this year after injury seasons.

peeonwrigley
12-07-2005, 01:08 AM
I can.

Thome had better not miss many games due to injury (the back is my concern, not the elbow) while the big man has a comeback year. Having Frank leave like this is just making me sick, and you cannot remotely compare it to Magglio. Magglio gambled, got injured, and left to chase the money. Magglio had not put up nearly Frank-like numbers for the years that Frank did. Did the Sox even see if Frank would be willing to re-sign for a low base with a lot of incentive clauses? Apparently not. Did they ask him to submit to a physical to see how he's doing? Apparently not, but they took on Thome coming off a year missed to injury based on a physical. With the $3.5 million buyout of Frank and what the Sox are picking up of Thome's contract, they are paying more than Frank's option, and that's just for next year. They have Thome for a couple more regardless of his physical status, while Frank would have been only for next year.

Can you tell I'm having a hard time accepting this?:(:

I'm with you.

I'm trusting KW's judgment on the health of each player

Chisox003
12-07-2005, 01:10 AM
Can you tell I'm having a hard time accepting this?:(:
You definitely aren't alone.

It's going to be a sad, sad day when he signs with wherever he's going.

Wish it was here.

:(:

HotelWhiteSox
12-07-2005, 01:12 AM
This also hurts me. I think Frank really knows what the Sox are doing but he doesn't have to like it. He was basically kicked to the curb. Plus you throw the equation of the rumored (or seen through some moves/words in the past) strained relationship with KW. Don't get me wrong, I love KW, but I've gotten the impression that he's wanted Frank gone for at least a couple of years now. I also like the Thome deal, but it wouldn't have hurt or worried me if Frank was the DH on the team. The funny thing will be to see this board later on. I know he'll put up numbers, but if Thome doesn't live up to his end, we'll see a lot windbag opinions getting posted from the people who thought it was time to move on or didn't mind that Frank was going. It also baffles me that more people on Comcast Sports Net's website poll say they'll miss Rowand more than Frank.

Huisj
12-07-2005, 01:12 AM
I can.

Thome had better not miss many games due to injury (the back is my concern, not the elbow) while the big man has a comeback year. Having Frank leave like this is just making me sick, and you cannot remotely compare it to Magglio. Magglio gambled, got injured, and left to chase the money. Magglio had not put up nearly Frank-like numbers for the years that Frank did. Did the Sox even see if Frank would be willing to re-sign for a low base with a lot of incentive clauses? Apparently not. Did they ask him to submit to a physical to see how he's doing? Apparently not, but they took on Thome coming off a year missed to injury based on a physical. With the $3.5 million buyout of Frank and what the Sox are picking up of Thome's contract, they are paying more than Frank's option, and that's just for next year. They have Thome for a couple more regardless of his physical status, while Frank would have been only for next year.

Can you tell I'm having a hard time accepting this?:(:

The same things have crossed my mind. If Thome does get hurt, then what? I guess they trade for Everett again. I know it's considered less of a risk with Thome for 3 years since they are only paying him 8 million a year, but if he goes down, that's a whole lot more than they'd be paying Thomas most likely.

The Thome deal is nice, but I agree, it's kind of mixed emotions. I was 7 when Frank first got called up, and though I'd been a sox fan for a little while already, I still kind of associate him coming up with my first real memories of the sox and baseball (aside from a few bits and pieces here and there like opening day '89 and the day they traded baines and I threw a temper tantrum). I practically don't know the Sox without Thomas.

Then again, I didn't know the sox with a world championship either until just recently, and I'm adjusting to that ok I suppose. It's just going to be so stinking weird to see him on a different team.

Jjav829
12-07-2005, 01:21 AM
Dammit, I hate to see things with Frank end like this. After the amazing feel-good season that was '05, it sucks to see Hurt walk away feeling burned by management. I want him to be around the Sox for a long time after his career - not another ex-player who has a grudge with management. Best of luck, big guy. :(:


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-051206soxthomas,1,5568614.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Yeah, it kinda sucks but it seems a lot of players leave this organization having bad feelings. Frank wasn't "forced" to move on. Frank forced the Sox organization to have to move on due to his inability to stay healthy (obviously something that wasn't really in his control). It sucks that it ends this way, but it is what it is.

I'm not really surprised by it. It's been my feeling for the better part of 5 months now that Frank would not be back in 2006. I've been expecting this move for a while so it's not a big surprise and I've already gotten past the disappointment part of knowing that Frank won't be back.

MERPER
12-07-2005, 01:30 AM
I love Frank... I'll miss Frank... the greatest hitter I've ever actually seen... He was the White Sox for 15 years, basically my entire life....

KEY WORD=WAS

As hard as it will be to see him trying on a different jersey in a few days, it was harder having to make up for his injuries over the past few seasons...

We talk so much about how great of a job KW has done since taking over as GM... Well, add this-- He basically made this team a champion and a potential dominant force DESPITE Frank Thomas to the point where we are a healthy and blossoming franchise withouth him...

It was time for both sides to move on plain and simple... His 12 HR's were great last season but we're all being way too nice if we credit him with too much of the championship run... a White Sox team without the BIG HURT won a World Series and it's sad/wierd/mean to say I know...

Chicago fans and many of us White Sox fans have already been through something similar... Michael Jordan putting on a BLUE Washington Wizards uniform....

This will sting, it'll look weird and hurt our eyes... We'll cry when Frank returns to get his ring and so will he.... we'll cry when he hits No. 500 and so will he... But then we'll get over it and so will he...

.... Until he goes into the HOF wearing a White Sox hat and finds his mural on the outfield walls of Comiskey...Here's to you Frank, thanks for all the memories and best of luck in the future!!! :gulp:

RowanDye
12-07-2005, 01:40 AM
I can.

Thome had better not miss many games due to injury (the back is my concern, not the elbow) while the big man has a comeback year. Having Frank leave like this is just making me sick, and you cannot remotely compare it to Magglio. Magglio gambled, got injured, and left to chase the money. Magglio had not put up nearly Frank-like numbers for the years that Frank did. Did the Sox even see if Frank would be willing to re-sign for a low base with a lot of incentive clauses? Apparently not. Did they ask him to submit to a physical to see how he's doing? Apparently not, but they took on Thome coming off a year missed to injury based on a physical. With the $3.5 million buyout of Frank and what the Sox are picking up of Thome's contract, they are paying more than Frank's option, and that's just for next year. They have Thome for a couple more regardless of his physical status, while Frank would have been only for next year.

Can you tell I'm having a hard time accepting this?:(:

KW and the Sox are VERY familiar with Frank Thomas' medical history. Frank Thomas had a great career, but after he was hurt again last season you had to see this coming. I trust that the Sox were much more informed about the health of both Frank and Thome than anyone on this board and made the RIGHT decision -- No matter how hard that decision is to accept.

Chisox003
12-07-2005, 01:41 AM
Yeah, it kinda sucks but it seems a lot of players leave this organization having bad feelings. Frank wasn't "forced" to move on. Frank forced the Sox organization to have to move on due to his inability to stay healthy (obviously something that wasn't really in his control). It sucks that it ends this way, but it is what it is.

I'm not really surprised by it. It's been my feeling for the better part of 5 months now that Frank would not be back in 2006. I've been expecting this move for a while so it's not a big surprise and I've already gotten past the disappointment part of knowing that Frank won't be back.
I think that's the way a lot of people have felt here, especially knowing that the chances of Big Frank being back in '06 were slim.

Yet knowing this kind of got lost in all the excitement, with the race down the stretch, and of course the most magical month in White Sox history. Even November, the whole season was still sinking in (hell, I still don't think it's hit me that we're the champs.)

Deep down we all knew it was coming, but it sure wasn't something I wanted to accept, particularly when the Sox were in the midst of winning a world series.

But now that it's actually happening, and other teams are rumored to be after him, the whole situation is becoming more real than ever. And it sucks.

ShoelessJoeS
12-07-2005, 01:41 AM
Can you tell I'm having a hard time accepting this?:(:
I feel your pain brother. Reading this thread makes me want to cry like I was watching the World Series all over again. Frank's departure (is there an opposite of deep pink?) will easily be the saddest day in White Sox history. I am confident in saying however, that if Frank remains friendly with this organization that will surely retire his number, that he will one day make a legendary return to the South Side as our hitting coach after Walk leaves (or is forced out).

Hang in there Nellie, we're all in the same sinking boat.

WikdChiSoxFan
12-07-2005, 01:44 AM
I can.

Thome had better not miss many games due to injury (the back is my concern, not the elbow) while the big man has a comeback year. Having Frank leave like this is just making me sick, and you cannot remotely compare it to Magglio. Magglio gambled, got injured, and left to chase the money. Magglio had not put up nearly Frank-like numbers for the years that Frank did. Did the Sox even see if Frank would be willing to re-sign for a low base with a lot of incentive clauses? Apparently not. Did they ask him to submit to a physical to see how he's doing? Apparently not, but they took on Thome coming off a year missed to injury based on a physical. With the $3.5 million buyout of Frank and what the Sox are picking up of Thome's contract, they are paying more than Frank's option, and that's just for next year. They have Thome for a couple more regardless of his physical status, while Frank would have been only for next year.

Can you tell I'm having a hard time accepting this?:(:

Yes, yes, and yes....I can't believe more people don't see it this way.

If Thome's back starts acting up, my trade supporting friends are gonna get an earful...

Now, I completely understand the trade and agree that Thome is less probable to be injured and I'd like to give Neo a shot in the bigs, so I'm not going to criticize KW and the Sox.

But seriously, to everyone else, cut the "KW is Infallible" and "Trust in Kenny" parade... I think most of us understand the benefits and risks of this trade, and I don't think Kenny's opinion should be a main point in an argument to Trump all other arguments. It's like saying "I don't believe in dinosaurs because Carl Everett doesn't"

Eh well, I've vented, no use talkin about it till the season starts anyway.

But seriously, I would have liked to see Big Frank hobble around in Black and White than in somebody elses jersey.

I hope Frank hits 40 bombs next year.:gulp:

gowhitesox
12-07-2005, 01:46 AM
Frank Thomas gave us all alot of memories over the years. He is class guy, sure he wanted to end his playing days with the White Sox, the way it turned out is part of the game.

Thanks for the memories Frank.

Taliesinrk
12-07-2005, 01:49 AM
the way it turned out is part of the game.



if you believe that part of the game is not paying respect and loyalty back to your franchise player who gave you his best/ your success for over a decade and a half. if that is part of the game, then yes you're right.

Jjav829
12-07-2005, 01:53 AM
Now, I completely understand the trade and agree that Thome is less probable to be injured and I'd like to give Neo a shot in the bigs, so I'm not going to criticize KW and the Sox.


That's fine, but also understand that this wasn't a Thome or Frank decision. If it wasn't Jim Thome that Kenny traded for to replace Frank it would have been Lyle Overbay, Aubrey Huff, Todd Helton, etc. The decision wasn't made based on whether Thome or Frank will be better next year. The decision Kenny had to make was whether to rely on Frank again. Clearly Kenny decided that he couldn't make that decision again and had to go in another direction. Then the decision was simply who to acquire as a replacement.

Another thing that everyone has seemingly forgot is that Kenny has a responsibility to the team. There are 24 other players in that locker room, as well as all the managers and coaches from the dugout all the way up to the front office, that are counting on Kenny to put the best possible team on the field. So with all the talk about how Kenny "owes it to Frank" to give him another chance, where is all the talk about how Kenny owes it to the rest of the Sox roster, Ozzie, all of Ozzie's coaches, every member of the front office and so on down to the minor leagues to put the best possible team on the field? Why is it more important that Kenny give Frank a chance to retire as a White Sox than to put what he feels is the best team on the field? Why is one player more important than the entire organization?

Taliesinrk
12-07-2005, 01:58 AM
That's fine, but also understand that this wasn't a Thome or Frank decision. If it wasn't Jim Thome that Kenny traded for to replace Frank it would have been Lyle Overbay, Aubrey Huff, Todd Helton, etc. The decision wasn't made based on whether Thome or Frank will be better next year. The decision Kenny had to make was whether to rely on Frank again. Clearly Kenny decided that he couldn't make that decision again and had to go in another direction. Then the decision was simply who to acquire as a replacement.

Another thing that everyone has seemingly forgot is that Kenny has a responsibility to the team. There are 24 other players in that locker room, as well as all the managers and coaches from the dugout all the way up to the front office, that are counting on Kenny to put the best possible team on the field. So with all the talk about how Kenny "owes it to Frank" to give him another chance, where is all the talk about how Kenny owes it to the rest of the Sox roster, Ozzie, all of Ozzie's coaches, every member of the front office and so on down to the minor leagues to put the best possible team on the field? Why is it more important that Kenny give Frank a chance to retire as a White Sox than to put what he feels is the best team on the field? Why is one player more important than the entire organization?

One player isn't more important than the entire organization. The organization, however, does owe it to Frank Thomas moreso than any other member of the organization.

What always sums it up is that Frank Thomas always put the organization first. It's just too bad that the organization didn't put him first.

Jjav829
12-07-2005, 02:07 AM
One player isn't more important than the entire organization. The organization, however, does owe it to Frank Thomas moreso than any other member of the organization.

What always sums it up is that Frank Thomas always put the organization first. It's just too bad that the organization didn't put him first.

I'm not even gonna bother because I don't want this to turn into something where I have to criticize Frank in any way to make my point.

I'll simply say this. Understand that Kenny's job is far broader than simply fielding a 25-man team. When I mention all of those people from the front office down to the minor leagues I do mean it. These people are all counting on Kenny to put a successful team on the field. The success of the team can make or break their jobs. Therefore anything that possibly takes away from putting the best team on the field due to sentimental reasons is a detriment to those in the front office all the way on down. If the Sox count on Frank and he gets injured again, causing the team to perform poorly, it has an effect on everyone in the Sox organization. Therefore while you sit here saying that Kenny should be making a decision with his heart rather than his mind, there are hundreds of people whose jobs depend on the White Sox success who would rather have Kenny field a successful team. It's sports utilitarianism.

Gavin
12-07-2005, 02:08 AM
First of all, I believe Frank Thomas is the greatest White Sox player in the history of their franchise, but I can't give the man sympathy in this regard.

The Sox have paid Thomas a rather fat salary in the last few years to do little more than show up when he's not hurt. It's no surprise that he was not recontracted to the team. He is extremely injury-prone.

If you must give sympathy to anyone, give it to our soldiers, regardless of your political leanings. They aren't paid millions, and their job isn't glorious. I pity these soldiers because some of them may not even make it back to our country to experience the opportunities that Thomas has grown to be "accustomed to".

I am as big of a Sox fan as most of you, but I am also not naive as to how much our athletes make. A little humility is all I ask, especially during this Christmas.

getonbckthr
12-07-2005, 02:13 AM
Thanks for the memories Frank, but business is business. Keeping you would have been bad business.

Taliesinrk
12-07-2005, 02:14 AM
I'm not even gonna bother because I don't want this to turn into something where I have to criticize Frank in any way to make my point.

I'll simply say this. Understand that Kenny's job is far broader than simply fielding a 25-man team. When I mention all of those people from the front office down to the minor leagues I do mean it. These people are all counting on Kenny to put a successful team on the field. The success of the team can make or break their jobs. Therefore anything that possibly takes away from putting the best team on the field due to sentimental reasons is a detriment to those in the front office all the way on down. If the Sox count on Frank and he gets injured again, causing the team to perform poorly, it has an effect on everyone in the Sox organization. Therefore while you sit here saying that Kenny should be making a decision with his heart rather than his mind, there are hundreds of people whose jobs depend on the White Sox success who would rather have Kenny field a successful team. It's sports utilitarianism.

That's a rather thoughtful argument. I like it, but I don't agree with it. I've really gotta go study physics, but let me say this: I think you're being a bit mellow-dramatic here (could be argued in my sorrow of the departure of Frank too.. I know). Frank getting hurt, having the Sox deal Rowand and prospects to aquire Jim Thome at the break when the Phils are out of it, isn't going to cost many their jobs.. IMO, of course. And if it did cost them their jobs, then couldn't I argue that the team went with a cheaper option in Thomas (who had the same, if not more potential than Thome) and when he got hurt, then they made the deal. And that because this was the case a few lost their jobs... but that's business???

Taliesinrk
12-07-2005, 02:17 AM
If you must give sympathy to anyone, give it to our soldiers, regardless of your political leanings. They aren't paid millions, and their job isn't glorious. I pity these soldiers because some of them may not even make it back to our country to experience the opportunities that Thomas has grown to be "accustomed to".

I am as big of a Sox fan as most of you, but I am also not naive as to how much our athletes make. A little humility is all I ask, especially during this Christmas.

While I lose sight sometimes selfishly... Thank You for putting it in perspective.


Thanks for the memories Frank, but business is business. Keeping you would have been bad business.

"It's Time".. it was this sort of post/poster that I was talking about not appreciating Frank...

Nellie_Fox
12-07-2005, 02:18 AM
If you must give sympathy to anyone, give it to our soldiers, regardless of your political leanings. They aren't paid millions, and their job isn't glorious. I pity these soldiers because some of them may not even make it back to our country to experience the opportunities that Thomas has grown to be "accustomed to".Oh, please, spare me this. Don't try to make it about patriotism and soldiers. I'm a Viet Nam veteran, and just recently retired from the Army Reserve as a Master Sergeant. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. The more I think about your post the more pissed I'm getting.

Jjav829
12-07-2005, 02:21 AM
That's a rather thoughtful argument. I like it, but I don't agree with it. I've really gotta go study physics, but let me say this: I think you're being a bit mellow-dramatic here (could be argued in my sorrow of the departure of Frank too.. I know). Frank getting hurt, having the Sox deal Rowand and prospects to aquire Jim Thome at the break when the Phils are out of it, isn't going to cost many their jobs.. IMO, of course. And if it did cost them their jobs, then couldn't I argue that the team went with a cheaper option in Thomas (who had the same, if not more potential than Thome) and when he got hurt, then they made the deal. And that because this was the case a few lost their jobs... but that's business???

First off, just to clear things up, Thome would not have been available in 2006. He was going to be dealt somewhere this offseason.

Second, I suppose that argument has some validity, but at the same time you have to remember the number one person Kenny is protecting - himself. Ultimately it is his job on the line if the Sox lose. Yes, we just won the World Series but now the pressure starts on him again. Every year the Sox win the World Series gives Kenny that much more time as the GM and every year the Sox don't win the World Series is that much less time Kenny has to work with. It's not like he can simply throw a year out the window to make a move that he feels is detrimental to the team.

spiffie
12-07-2005, 02:21 AM
I have no doubt that the White Sox organization will give Frank Thomas all the respect in the world whenever he finally hangs up the spikes. They can start painting the mural for the wall at anytime, and when he goes in the HOF I'm sure the Sox organization will make a huge deal of it. And hopefully Frank will join the list of ex-Sox who, despite ending their playing careers in other cities, eventually came back into the fold. Just think about all the people around the team this year who seemingly left on bad terms or "got screwed by the team": McDowell, Ventura, Ozzie, Fisk...JR seems to eventually bring the folks back home in the end. And when it's all done Frank will understand, and he'll be known as probably the greatest White Sox player of all time.

Jjav829
12-07-2005, 02:23 AM
"It's Time".. it was this sort of post/poster that I was talking about not appreciating Frank...

How is that "not appreciating Frank?" The poster thanked Frank for the memories but acknowledged that the move was made in the best interests of the business aspect of the team. That's a perfectly logical statement. It's not like he said, "Cya Frank! We have Thome now so we don't want you."

Taliesinrk
12-07-2005, 02:23 AM
I have no doubt that the White Sox organization will give Frank Thomas all the respect in the world whenever he finally hangs up the spikes. They can start painting the mural for the wall at anytime, and when he goes in the HOF I'm sure the Sox organization will make a huge deal of it. And hopefully Frank will join the list of ex-Sox who, despite ending their playing careers in other cities, eventually came back into the fold. Just think about all the people around the team this year who seemingly left on bad terms or "got screwed by the team": McDowell, Ventura, Ozzie, Fisk...JR seems to eventually bring the folks back home in the end. And when it's all done Frank will understand, and he'll be known as probably the greatest White Sox player of all time.

No probably about it...

Jjav.. that was dumb on my part.. substitute another 1B on the block at the deadline this coming season..

Edit: He is essentially saying that though Jjav... not directly but inferred. I take it as, "Thanks Frank.. you were good, but let's face it... you're not doing anything for us lately so cya later." To me his post had no remorse, just simply saying thanks for winning some games.. now leave.. you're not good anymore.
In the great words of Nellie, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out"... or something like that..

Gavin
12-07-2005, 02:24 AM
Oh, please, spare me this. Don't try to make it about patriotism and soldiers. I'm a Viet Nam veteran, and just recently retired from the Army Reserve as a Master Sergeant. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. The more I think about your post the more pissed I'm getting.

When did I ever play a patriotism card?

IIRC, I said "regardless of your political leanings".

God forbid someone think of our poorly paid troops while we discuss the million dollar importance of athletes.

Corlose 15
12-07-2005, 02:24 AM
I think Gavin and Jjav have summed things up pretty well so I'll just try to add a few things.

First of all I love Frank Thomas. He is without a doubt the greatest hitter ever to put on a Sox uniform. I'm 22 so I can hardly remember the Sox without Frank and it'll be weird to see him in another uniform. I remember the hardest ball I've ever seen hit was Frank at Tiger Stadium in 98 or so, he absolutely crushed a ball to the center field upper deck bleachers, it seemed like it went 700 ft.

That said the name on the front of the uniform is more important than any name on the back even "Thomas". As much as I'd like to see Frank play his entire career with the Sox I'd rather see them win the World Series without him. I think the Thome trade helps them in that regard.

Also, all you people saying "what if Thome gets hurt?", well, what if Frank's ankle goes out again? Will you applaud KW for getting Thome then? IMO the latter is much more likely to happen than the former.

Nellie_Fox
12-07-2005, 02:24 AM
How is that "not appreciating Frank?" The poster thanked Frank for the memories but acknowledged that the move was made in the best interests of the business aspect of the team. That's a perfectly logical statement. It's not like he said, "Cya Frank! We have Thome now so we don't want you."How are those two statements substantively different?

Unregistered
12-07-2005, 02:25 AM
F
If you must give sympathy to anyone, give it to our soldiers, regardless of your political leanings. They aren't paid millions, and their job isn't glorious. I pity these soldiers because some of them may not even make it back to our country to experience the opportunities that Thomas has grown to be "accustomed to".

I am as big of a Sox fan as most of you, but I am also not naive as to how much our athletes make. A little humility is all I ask, especially during this Christmas.
Sorry, but I really fail to see what one has to do with the other.

You can be upset that one of your favorite players on your favorite team is leaving and still be sympathetic to the soldiers. Ridiculous post.

Jjav829
12-07-2005, 02:26 AM
How are those two statements substantively different?

I hate to answer a question with a question, but how can you not see the difference between understanding that this move is best for the team and simply just kicking Frank aside?

Taliesinrk
12-07-2005, 02:28 AM
I hate to answer a question with a question, but how can you not see the difference between understanding that this move is best for the team and simply just kicking Frank aside?

He is essentially saying that though Jjav... not directly but inferred. I take it as, "Thanks Frank.. you were good, but let's face it... you're not doing anything for us lately so cya later." To me his post had no remorse, just simply saying thanks for winning some games.. now leave.. you're not good anymore.
In the great words of Nellie, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out"... or something like that..

Taliesinrk
12-07-2005, 02:32 AM
Sorry, but I really fail to see what one has to do with the other.

You can be upset that one of your favorite players on your favorite team is leaving and still be sympathetic to the soldiers. Ridiculous post.

It's saying that we don't have our priorities straight.. I kind of agree with him here. We spend our energy and feelings on feeling bad for a multi million dollar athlete when we should be feeling for those making it so that we are able to appreciate the multi million dollar athlete.
Kind of sad.. a girl in my class tonight broke down crying because a guy she spends Christmas with every year is currently a hostage in Iraq. That's life or death.. A bit more important I guess than KW and FT.

I can't talk here... but it's not that we can't feel for Frank, just that some shouldn't be soooo worked up about it because there are more impt things. I agree, but I don't practice it very well.

Jjav829
12-07-2005, 02:32 AM
He is essentially saying that though Jjav... not directly but inferred. I take it as, "Thanks Frank.. you were good, but let's face it... you're not doing anything for us lately so cya later." To me his post had no remorse, just simply saying thanks for winning some games.. now leave.. you're not good anymore.
In the great words of Nellie, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out"... or something like that..

Ok, perhaps is a question of interpretation then. I take it as "Thanks for the memories Frank. I'll always remember the good things you did for the Sox. Unfortunately, due to your injury problems we had to look for someone who is a bit more reliable to fill your spot in order to ensure that the team is in the best position possible to repeat next year."

Taliesinrk
12-07-2005, 02:35 AM
Ok, perhaps is a question of interpretation then. I take it as "Thanks for the memories Frank. I'll always remember the good things you did for the Sox. Unfortunately, due to your injury problems we had to look for someone who is a bit more reliable to fill your spot in order to ensure that the team is in the best position possible to repeat next year."

Perhaps.. but if I'm sincere, I don't bring up anything about the way he left. I leave it to his accomplishments.. what he did right. Like talking about failures of someone at their funeral. You may believe it to be true, but you should want to remember the good things at the time.

Gavin
12-07-2005, 02:36 AM
Sorry, but I really fail to see what one has to do with the other.

You can be upset that one of your favorite players on your favorite team is leaving and still be sympathetic to the soldiers. Ridiculous post.

It's a values judgment.

Some feel that we should value the complaint of a millionaire who doesn't get a chance to make even more millions of dollars in Chicago. I assume that you are one of them.

Others feel that we should take a look at the big picture, and realize how lucky these athletes are to be paid millions of dollars to begin with.

Is it that ridiculous?

Nellie_Fox
12-07-2005, 02:38 AM
There was no real difference between the two statements. One says "we appreciate what you've done but are going in a different direction." The other says "we don't need you any more because we've got Thome." They are the same statement, just one is more blunt than the other.

Jjav829
12-07-2005, 02:42 AM
Perhaps.. but if I'm sincere, I don't bring up anything about the way he left. I leave it to his accomplishments.. what he did right. Like talking about failures of someone at their funeral. You may believe it to be true, but you should want to remember the good things at the time.

Fine, but this isn't a funeral. It's not like Frank was hitting 40 HRs yesterday and now today he is gone. We've seen Frank hit a combined 30 HRs in the past two years and make a combined 435 plate appearances. Frank's departure is something that has been building for two years now and while some may have been in denial over it, I think everyone sort of saw that this would possibly happen. I know there wasn't a time Frank stepped to the plate this year that I didn't realize I was probably seeing the last year of Frank Thomas in a White Sox uniform. This wasn't a sudden thing like the somewhat morbid comparison to a funeral.

Anyway, I don't have time to argue semantics anymore as I have to get some sleep.

Nellie_Fox
12-07-2005, 02:43 AM
It's a values judgment.

Some feel that we should value the complaint of a millionaire who doesn't get a chance to make even more millions of dollars in Chicago. I assume that you are one of them.

Others feel that we should take a look at the big picture, and realize how lucky these athletes are to be paid millions of dollars to begin with.

Is it that ridiculous?Yes, because one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. This isn't Sprewell complaining that he needs a new contract "because I've got a family to feed." This is Frank rightly feeling that he wasn't given the same consideration given to Thome, despite the fact that he has done so much for the Sox while Thome has done nothing for the Sox.

Unregistered
12-07-2005, 02:46 AM
It's a values judgment.

Some feel that we should value the complaint of a millionaire who doesn't get a chance to make even more millions of dollars in Chicago. I assume that you are one of them.

Others feel that we should take a look at the big picture, and realize how lucky these athletes are to be paid millions of dollars to begin with.

Is it that ridiculous?It's ridiculous because it has no place in this discussion. This isn't a debate on the amount of money that professional athletes should or shouldn't be making. It's also not about our feelings about the soldiers in Iraq.

It's a thread about one of the best players in the history of our favorite team leaving - possibly on less than good terms. It doesn't have to get any deeper than that.

EDIT: Sorry Nellie - we're saying the same things. I'll leave this to you. :cool:

Taliesinrk
12-07-2005, 02:52 AM
Fine, but this isn't a funeral. It's not like Frank was hitting 40 HRs yesterday and now today he is gone. We've seen Frank hit a combined 30 HRs in the past two years and make a combined 435 plate appearances. Frank's departure is something that has been building for two years now and while some may have been in denial over it, I think everyone sort of saw that this would possibly happen. I know there wasn't a time Frank stepped to the plate this year that I didn't realize I was probably seeing the last year of Frank Thomas in a White Sox uniform. This wasn't a sudden thing like the somewhat morbid comparison to a funeral.

Anyway, I don't have time to argue semantics anymore as I have to get some sleep.

Yes.. time has expired.. off to study..

Gavin
12-07-2005, 02:52 AM
Yes, because one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. This isn't Sprewell complaining that he needs a new contract "because I've got a family to feed." This is Frank rightly feeling that he wasn't given the same consideration given to Thome, despite the fact that he has done so much for the Sox while Thome has done nothing for the Sox.

You're right. We should give Thomas a few million dollars simply because "he has done so much for the sox".

****, I've been a Sox fan for the last 23 years, and I think I've done a lot for the Sox. Might as well toss a couple mill my way.

Taliesinrk
12-07-2005, 02:55 AM
You're right. We should give Thomas a few million dollars simply because "he has done so much for the sox".

****, I've been a Sox fan for the last 23 years, and I think I've done a lot for the Sox. Might as well toss a couple mill my way.

Alright.. I must be off but I just gotta comment here. I agreed with you earlier, but this could be ridiculous now. This is showing a lack of appreciation for what Frank's done for the organization -->CLR01... However, I think even you realize that the bottome two lines.. ah the hell with it.. you know why they're ridiculous.

Gavin
12-07-2005, 02:57 AM
It's ridiculous because it has no place in this discussion. This isn't a debate on the amount of money that professional athletes should or shouldn't be making. It's also not about our feelings about the soldiers in Iraq.

It's a thread about one of the best players in the history of our favorite team leaving - possibly on less than good terms. It doesn't have to get any deeper than that.

EDIT: Sorry Nellie - we're saying the same things. I'll leave this to you. :cool:

You're biased.

If Frank Thomas was so committed to the White Sox, why hasn't he resigned yet? Dare I say he cares about how much he paid? Oh, but that would mean he cares about money? It's almost like the Chicago White Sox are a business!

So go ahead and worry about giving Frank Thomas millions of dollars, and I'll go ahead and worry about individuals like you who laud athlete's high salaries and give a rat's ass about our soldiers.

In the end, you're right: it's not about our feelings about the soldiers in Iraq, it's about our feelings towards "one of the best players in the history of our favorite team".

gowhitesox
12-07-2005, 03:03 AM
if you believe that part of the game is not paying respect and loyalty back to your franchise player who gave you his best/ your success for over a decade and a half. if that is part of the game, then yes you're right.

I see your point. If it were up to me I would bring him back as a player/coach of some kind.

Unregistered
12-07-2005, 03:04 AM
So go ahead and worry about giving Frank Thomas millions of dollars, and I'll go ahead and worry about individuals like you who laud athlete's high salaries and give a rat's ass about our soldiers.

Show me when I've (or anyone else for that matter) ever said they "give a rat's ass about our soldiers," much less even mentioned them outside of telling you that the issue had no place in this thread.

So not only have you hijacked this thread with your bull****, you've insulted me and trivialized "our soldiers" for some dramatic, high-and-mighty debate you've created out of thin air. You are a grade-A jackass. :rolleyes:

Nellie_Fox
12-07-2005, 03:07 AM
You're biased.

If Frank Thomas was so committed to the White Sox, why hasn't he resigned yet? Dare I say he cares about how much he paid? Oh, but that would mean he cares about money? It's almost like the Chicago White Sox are a business!

So go ahead and worry about giving Frank Thomas millions of dollars, and I'll go ahead and worry about individuals like you who laud athlete's high salaries and give a rat's ass about our soldiers.

In the end, you're right: it's not about our feelings about the soldiers in Iraq, it's about our feelings towards "one of the best players in the history of our favorite team".Okay, I'm trying to maintain my cool and not engage in name calling.

Was Frank offered a contract of any size that he turned down? How can he re-sign (not resign) when he wasn't offered a contract?

And I swear, stop draping your position in some sort of fake patriotism. I don't "laud athlete's high salaries" and I damn sure give more of a "rat's ass" about soldiers than you do. I've been one. I've been in a war. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER!!!!!!!!!!! Otherwise, let's just suspend sports entirely until we no longer have soldiers in danger.

In fact, let's pass federal legislation that athletes cannot make more money than the highest-paid soldier. After all, they make far more than even senior generals and admirals. You know what, this sounds like a hell of an idea. I'll bet that the football teams at West Point, Annapolis and the Air Force Academy would get really competitive again.

Gavin
12-07-2005, 03:12 AM
Okay, I'm trying to maintain my cool and not engage in name calling.

Was Frank offered a contract of any size that he turned down? How can he re-sign (not resign) when he wasn't offered a contract?

And I swear, stop draping your position in some sort of fake patriotism. I don't "laud athlete's high salaries" and I damn sure give more of a "rat's ass" about soldiers than you do. I've been one. I've been in a war. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER!!!!!!!!!!! Otherwise, let's just suspend sports entirely until we no longer have soldiers in danger.

In fact, let's pass federal legislation that athletes cannot make more money than the highest-paid soldier. After all, they make far more than even senior generals and admirals. You know what, this sounds like a hell of an idea. I'll bet that the football teams at West Point, Annapolis and the Air Force Academy would get really competitive again.

Next time try replying to my reply to you.

Let me summarize all of your posts:
"I'M A SOLDIER. I WAS IN NAM. RARRRRRRRR. RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY."

Nellie_Fox
12-07-2005, 03:14 AM
Next time try replying to my reply to you.

Let me summarize all of your posts:
"I'M A SOLDIER. I WAS IN NAM. RARRRRRRRR. RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY."Yeah, okay, you win. You have intellectually defeated me.

I just re-read my reply to you, and though I had replied to your reply. Apparently not.

Punk.

Gavin
12-07-2005, 03:20 AM
Punk.

:kneeslap:

CLR01
12-07-2005, 03:22 AM
Next time try replying to my reply to you.

Let me summarize all of your posts:
"I'M A SOLDIER. I WAS IN NAM. RARRRRRRRR. RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY."


Would you like a nice vacation?

Tell you what, if I have to split this thread and move the garbage to the roadhouse and close it you get a week off for every post that gets moved, deal? Leave the politics out of it.

Optipessimism
12-07-2005, 03:24 AM
:kneeslap:
Why aren't you banned yet?

Frankfan4life
12-07-2005, 03:46 AM
Frank Thomas is not with the White Sox anymore. This is one of the worst days I've ever had as a White Sox fan. First Rowand, now Frank? The last few weeks have been brutal. I can't even express how bad I feel about this.

I understand that this is the business part of baseball, but I just hate this side of the game. I'm gonna be grieving about this for a long time. Right now, I don't want to listen to any logical arguments like, "We got Thome and Konerko, so where's Frank gonna play?" I'm just going to http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/misc/.gifhttp://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/misc/.gifgo assume a fetal postion for a while.

I love ya big guy! Sorry! :whiner:

IlliniSox4Life
12-07-2005, 03:51 AM
Next time try replying to my reply to you.

Let me summarize all of your posts:
"I'M A SOLDIER. I WAS IN NAM. RARRRRRRRR. RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY."

Wait, wait, and HE'S THE ONE not respecting soldiers? You confuse me.

Anyway, I have friends who are soldiers currently serving. And you know what they talk to me about the most? The White Sox. Infact, I had a conversation not too long ago with one who is stationed over seas about how he thought the Sox should resign Frank. I am sure my friend would like to make more money, but they still think Frank should have been resigned. Nothing to do with eachother.

And furthermore, the thing the Sox owe the most to, is not the players, it's not the people in the front office, or the coaches. It's the fans. This brings up the thought, what is in the Fans' best interest? Frank or no Frank? There's many things to be considered here, but personally, even if Frank is a risk, I take the chance, because the reward is so much sweeter. I would rather see Frank step up to the plate than any other batter in baseball. I went to Frank's first game back this season because it was Frank. He is and always will be a White Sox. Is there some sentimentality in there? sure. That's what makes baseball great. That's why I love it. Some guy at the Y didn't teach me how to play baseball, my dad did. Jim Thome didn't teach me to love the White Sox, Frank Thomas did. And sure, it's not the same for everyone, especially older fans, but Franks been on the team since I was 3 years old. To me, and many others, he is the White Sox, and he deserved something.

Frankfan4life
12-07-2005, 04:07 AM
Wait, wait, and HE'S THE ONE not respecting soldiers? You confuse me.

Anyway, I have friends who are soldiers currently serving. And you know what they talk to me about the most? The White Sox. Infact, I had a conversation not too long ago with one who is stationed over seas about how he thought the Sox should resign Frank. I am sure my friend would like to make more money, but they still think Frank should have been resigned. Nothing to do with eachother.

And furthermore, the thing the Sox owe the most to, is not the players, it's not the people in the front office, or the coaches. It's the fans. This brings up the thought, what is in the Fans' best interest? Frank or no Frank? There's many things to be considered here, but personally, even if Frank is a risk, I take the chance, because the reward is so much sweeter. I would rather see Frank step up to the plate than any other batter in baseball. I went to Frank's first game back this season because it was Frank. He is and always will be a White Sox. Is there some sentimentality in there? sure. That's what makes baseball great. That's why I love it. Some guy at the Y didn't teach me how to play baseball, my dad did. Jim Thome didn't teach me to love the White Sox, Frank Thomas did. And sure, it's not the same for everyone, especially older fans, but Franks been on the team since I was 3 years old. To me, and many others, he is the White Sox, and he deserved something.I'm glad I hung around long enough to read your post. Well said. In the final analysis, it was not only Frank who got dissed but the fans did, too.

Kenny, bah, humbug! I will now assume the fetal position.

bobwsx
12-07-2005, 04:31 AM
And sure, it's not the same for everyone, especially older fans, but Franks been on the team since I was 3 years old.This makes me feel old.:whiner: ....Great reply I agree with you 110%

IlliniSox4Life
12-07-2005, 04:43 AM
This makes me feel old.:whiner: ....Great reply I agree with you 110%

Actually, I was four, just noticed I hit the wrong key, but there's not much difference.

starboy0
12-07-2005, 06:57 AM
This is sad news indeed. Watched the comcast Sox Pride program last night and seeing Frank (and of course Aaron!) so happy that finally he would have the ring was in such stark contrast to the reality of his absence now.

But this is nothing new under the sun. If you think about it, many great players end their career playing the last year or two with another team.

Frank will always be identified with the White Sox and will go to the hall in the white, silver, and black. Years from now, baseball fans (who are not White Sox fans) will have a hard time even remembering who he played for at the end.

And Frank will always know which team he got that ring with.

hsnterprize
12-07-2005, 07:12 AM
And regardless of what team Frank is with in '06, the Sox should move post-haste to retire the #35. The Big Hurt has earned every right to be honored among the elite in White Sox history. Hopefully, this reaction in the paper and Comcast Sports Net is only an immediate, emotional reaction to the team not resigning him, and not a long term seed for bitterness and resentment.

Deuce
12-07-2005, 07:33 AM
You're biased.Read the top of the website, genius. Everything in this site is "totally biased."

If Frank Thomas was so committed to the White Sox, why hasn't he resigned yet? Dare I say he cares about how much he paid? Oh, but that would mean he cares about money? It's almost like the Chicago White Sox are a business!These things are not independant of each other. You can care deeply about your job and about the amount of money you are being paid. I love my job, but if they paid me $20K a year to do it, I would not be doing it. Frank loves the White Sox, has previously altered his contract to stay with the White Sox, apparently would be willing to accept a smaller amount of money to stay with the Sox and feels burnt that the Sox have written him off.

So go ahead and worry about giving Frank Thomas millions of dollars, and I'll go ahead and worry about individuals like you who laud athlete's high salaries and give a rat's ass about our soldiers.:whatever:

My wife is currently in Baghdad putting her ass on the line, and still worries about Frank. In fact, I decided not to send her this article, as I am sure it would upset her. She wants Frank back, in spite of her own salary.

Edit: I originally posted something much more scathing to the last quote, but editted it out of respect to the site.

Deuce

IlliniSox4Life
12-07-2005, 07:48 AM
And regardless of what team Frank is with in '06, the Sox should move post-haste to retire the #35. The Big Hurt has earned every right to be honored among the elite in White Sox history. Hopefully, this reaction in the paper and Comcast Sports Net is only an immediate, emotional reaction to the team not resigning him, and not a long term seed for bitterness and resentment.

Frank definately should be retired ASAP. I would wait to see who he does sign with. If its an AL club that comes here, I think it would be nice to retire it on the day he comes back. It'd be nice to see him hit a home run the day his jersey is retired.

I don't think there will be long term bitterness. He has been injured, and I, along with other White Sox fans, have gotten used to him not playing for the Sox. We just haven't gotten used to him not being under contract with the team. It's almost like the last two years have been a transition phase.

People are fans of baseball and the Sox because of the memories and the fun times they have had and will have. While Frank was a big part of a lot of the past memories, there are plenty of great memories to be had, and even fans who are upset with Frank being gone will realize this. While I am upset with Kenny over this too, I am not upset with him in general. I had about a decade worth of great memories watching the Sox this year, and a lot of them are due to Kenny. I laughed everytime Pods stole a base even though the other pitcher knew it was coming. He's on the team because of Kenny. Same goes for Ozzie and all the players Kenny brought in. Tons of great memories there. Let's not forget the World Series either. I got to go to my first playoff game (ALCS game 2) which AJ made me never forget.

So while I'm definately upset that Frank isn't a part of the team anymore, I do know that Kenny is doing what he thinks is best for the team. While I may not agree with him on that, I do respect him for it. He's not selling off all the players like Florida, and he's not trading a healthy Frank for somebody else. Kenny is trying to give us what he thinks is the best shot at a World Series repeat, and I can't hold that against him. I just hope he might come to his senses and somehow acquire Frank before the year is over.

The Dude
12-07-2005, 07:49 AM
Dammit, I hate to see things with Frank end like this. After the amazing feel-good season that was '05, it sucks to see Hurt walk away feeling burned by management. I want him to be around the Sox for a long time after his career - not another ex-player who has a grudge with management. Best of luck, big guy. :(:


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-051206soxthomas,1,5568614.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Frank was the man and was the greatest hitter ever on the White Sox. Now, however, we are trying to win another championship and Frank's durability comes into question. We can't just be sentimental and waste a roster spot having 2 high priced DH's. I wish Frank the best and if he is smarter than the past these days...he should understand where the Sox are coming from with this and move on.

He WILL get his #35 retired, he WILL get a spot on the wall, and he BETTER get in the HOF!

SoXPriDe33
12-07-2005, 07:56 AM
Frank moving on is devastating to me. When I was in little league and my Dad was my coach he gave me Frank's nickname of The Big Hurt. Now obviously no one can match what Frank did, but I loved that he gave me that nickname because Frank was and still is my favorite player. I remember going to games and sitting behind the sox dugout behind the on-deck circle and just watching him get ready to bat and seeing him basically in person and just remembering how HUGE he was. I don't want to see him go but I trust KW with the health issues. He has to know both are coming off injuries he must feel safer going with Thome. Frank wherever you go big guy good luck.

Bobbo35
12-07-2005, 07:57 AM
I can.

Thome had better not miss many games due to injury (the back is my concern, not the elbow) while the big man has a comeback year. Having Frank leave like this is just making me sick, and you cannot remotely compare it to Magglio. Magglio gambled, got injured, and left to chase the money. Magglio had not put up nearly Frank-like numbers for the years that Frank did. Did the Sox even see if Frank would be willing to re-sign for a low base with a lot of incentive clauses? Apparently not. Did they ask him to submit to a physical to see how he's doing? Apparently not, but they took on Thome coming off a year missed to injury based on a physical. With the $3.5 million buyout of Frank and what the Sox are picking up of Thome's contract, they are paying more than Frank's option, and that's just for next year. They have Thome for a couple more regardless of his physical status, while Frank would have been only for next year.

Can you tell I'm having a hard time accepting this?:(:

That is what I am having a hard time dealing with. Did the organization go through all necessary steps to see if Frank would be able and willing to play. Blows my mind that he will be in another uniform let alone a twinkies uniform, makes me want to throw up. It is a unfortunate situation. Hopefully the right decision was made.

TomBradley72
12-07-2005, 08:54 AM
Sorry Frank...the White Sox didn't force you out...your health and age did the trick. If we weren't 100% focused on winning another World Series maybe we could have risked waiting until the spring to assess your health...and pick up a DH in March if your foot wasn't healed. But the stakes are much higher now...and it would be irresponsible of KW to take that kind of risk. The last two seasons you've averaged 175 AB's/year....and you've had only TWO healthy seasons in the last FIVE. Honor and respect everything you've done for the White Sox...but the pursuit of another World Series ring and what's good for the team overall have to come first.

Kilroy
12-07-2005, 09:27 AM
Sigh.

I cannot find the logic, no matter how hard I try, in the Sox not even looking at Frank's health before cutting the chord. The guy has only been the face of the franchise for 16 years. I could understand it if they'd looked at it from all angles before making a decision. But KW told Konerko before the season ended that he planned to have Jim Thome hitting behind him next year.

This decision was made the day Frank went back on the injured list in July.

From so many angles, it made sense to give it a look. Thomas at 70% is a better hitter than Thome at 100%. Not to mention that Thomas would probably have cost 1/3 to 1/2 what Thome's getting in base salary. And then there's the cost of losing a gold-glove caliber CF and replacing him with (probably) a rookie in one of the OF positions.

I do like the idea that the Sox are on top and looking to stay there, but I'm not happy with the cost right now.

I'm 35+ years a Sox fan, so that'll never change. And this isn't the first time the team has done something I don't like. But they'll probably never do something again in my lifetime that I hate more.

Regardless of how the Sox do next year, I'm certain that there will be a familiar #35 on some AL team making us sorry all season long he's not wearing the silver and black on the south side.

Tekijawa
12-07-2005, 09:38 AM
I hope he's ready for the 20 minute standing ovation when he comes back with what ever team...

ewokpelts
12-07-2005, 09:43 AM
Yeah..... this year was bittersweet. Ultimate goal is to win the championship. And whether we like it or not, we all know that frank would have put a burden on payroll to the point where we wouldnt be able to keep konerko. But Frank will always be a white sock in my eyes.He was already bought out. IF HE CAME BACK, it was going to be cheap. No drain on Konerko's 12 million a year salary.

That said, I blame Kenny more so than anyone else. He's always wanted to get rid of Thomas. Remember, it was JERRY that forced Kenny to resign frank in 2002. You havent heard a peep from Jerry about Frank's "questionable health" this postseason. Ozzie, for all his crazy talk, went out of his way yesterday and spoke highly of Frank and his place in Sox history.

I blame Kenny.
Gene

wdelaney72
12-07-2005, 09:45 AM
This is just Frank being Frank.

Newman1969
12-07-2005, 09:54 AM
Okay at the start of 05 we had Paulie, No Dinosaur Man, and the Big Hurt...and we didn't hear too much (if any) complaining from Frank about that situation. - I do remember maybe some comment about needing at bats to find his groove. Are we still planning on having another Carl-type player as an insurance policy against either Thome or Konerko getting hurt or needing a rest?

Why do I get the impression that Frank wouldn't have minded being that guy? I truly believe Frank wanted to retire with the Sox.

Having Frank Thomas in the nineties was always gave me a sense of pride that we had such an elite player. I don't think I can handle seeing him in another jersey.

dickallen15
12-07-2005, 10:12 AM
Frank Thomas will not be able to play a full season in 2006. He will not be able to play anywhere near a full season in 2006. The move to replace Frank is a no-brainer. Time moves on for everyone. It was sad when Walter Payton couldn't play at the level we were used to seeing. It was sad watching Michael Jordan a shell of his former self in a Wizards uniform. It was a sad sight when the Bulls brought Scottie Pippen back, it was sad watching Harold Baines stick around too long in an effort for 3000 hits, and frankly, no pun intended, it would be sad watching Frank play out the string with the White Sox trying to get the 500th homerun.

I have no doubt KW wanted no part of Frank on his team, and has been waiting for this day for a while. But he can't be blamed at this point. How, if you are trying to defend a championship, can you count on the often injured Frank Thomas to play? I know they say he seems to be walking fine, but we got the same kind of reports last season, and he could barely move. Ultimately re-injuring the foot. Chances are, if the current injury actually heals, he will break it again. Guys who are chronically injured, and really you could say that about Frank the last 7 or 8 years with a couple of seasons of exceptions, don't all of a sudden become healthy when they get older. There has been a lot of pressure and stress on Frank's joints and bones over the years. It probably is his time to pay the piper for that.

Frankly Missing
12-07-2005, 10:24 AM
He was already bought out. IF HE CAME BACK, it was going to be cheap. No drain on Konerko's 12 million a year salary.

That said, I blame Kenny more so than anyone else. He's always wanted to get rid of Thomas. Remember, it was JERRY that forced Kenny to resign frank in 2002. You havent heard a peep from Jerry about Frank's "questionable health" this postseason. Ozzie, for all his crazy talk, went out of his way yesterday and spoke highly of Frank and his place in Sox history.

I blame Kenny.
Gene

Frank, for what it's worth, many of us feel this is just plain wrong.

How can the organization put a price tag on what #35 means to the history of White Sox baseball and the fans?

He deserved to come back, I don't care how many games he missed in recent years.

If his big fat foot can't hold up this year, his career is over, he knows it.

The White Sox owed him this final chance. It wouldn't have cost the team much to gamble on the greatest player in Chicago history.

I will never forgive this decision. I am sick.

Baby Fisk
12-07-2005, 10:26 AM
I'm glad I started a thread last week thanking him for the memories.

Congratulations.

Flight #24
12-07-2005, 10:29 AM
It's obvious from the KW & Frank comments that this decision was made a while ago. Which makes a lot of sense, given that IMO the key point in the injury wasn't that it was re-broken (which could mean he came back early and with more rest/healing could have avoided it), it was a different break in the same area. Which begs the question of how likely it would be for a big man like Frank to go through a full season without having a 3d break in that same area? Maybe Beckett or another of our medics wants to chime in and confirm/deny that, but that's my non-medical POV.

Given that, the choices were 1)Get a replacement, effectively shunting Frank out the door or 2)Give Frank a chance and try to find a replacement if/when he goes down again. The problem with #2 is that you're almost certainly going to miss out on the best of the available guys and you'll possibly pay more in season once teams know you're hard up.

There is no doubt that from a pure baseball perspective, you're better off with option #1. Especially when that option includes a guy who while not a healthy Frank, is still among the top power hitters in the game. And to compare the injury risk of a Thome, who's had 1 year that he had any issues (and that at least partially because of the elbow) to Frank, who's not only had ankle injuries in 3 of the past 5 years, but also had 2 separate injuries to the same area in the past 2 is just plain ludicrous. It isn't about how healthy each guy is now, it's about the chances of reinjury, which are just a ton higher with Frank.

It's sad, because he's the greatest player in team history, the greatest player in city history, and IMO the 2d or 3d greatest right handed hitter in baseball history. And he has been and will always be my favorite baseball player of all time. But the fact remains that the White Sox are a better team with Jim Thome than with Frank Thomas because of the health factor, and Kenny Williams responsibility is to field the best team that he can.

Here's to you, big guy. You will be missed. :gulp: We all wish it could have ended differently, but sometimes life doesn't turn out that way.:gulp:

It's Time
12-07-2005, 10:31 AM
Congratulations.

Thanks! I appreciate it.

kevin57
12-07-2005, 10:34 AM
It's obvious from these and other posts like it that Frank's leaving is an emotional one. It reminds me of some of what was said re: Aaron Rowand. Both guys connected at a deep level for nearly all Sox fans, so what our brains may be saying vs. what our hearts may be saying concerning Frank's departure may be in conflict.

I trust, I hope, I pray that KW and the Sox: 1) conducted a full and honest physical to see what FT could contribute, 2) made at least some contractual offer that was honest but honorable, and 3) communicate respectfully with him about their 'no' decision and how important he has been to the organization.

Until I know differently--as with the Rowand trade--my brain says this was necessary, but my heart is not feeling too good.

cheeses_h_rice
12-07-2005, 10:37 AM
Thome at 100% > Frank at 70%. Sorry, them's the facts.

The Sox are taking a risk with Thome over Thomas just like they would be taking a risk by leaving Thomas in as our primary DH. The question becomes, which is the greater risk?

IMO, it's the risk that an older, larger guy like Thomas having to sit because of leg/foot/ankle problems that have now bitten him twice if not more, prematurely ending two seasons. Contrast this with the risk of Thome coming off a one-time elbow injury and being two years younger. With Frank, you have what appears to be a pattern, and that's something you just can't go into 2006 with and expect to get lucky. KW made a move based on percentages, and I can't fault him for it, even if Thome has a crappy year while Frank goes nuts with some other AL team.

I think the biggest gripe Frank supporters have in all this is that it's been no secret that KW has wanted to shuffle Frank out the door the past few years, and that Frank has to sense that that plays a role in all this. I don't deny it does.

But with only 25 roster spots, KW did what he had to do, IMO.

Paulwny
12-07-2005, 10:43 AM
I'm almost at a loss for words. I really thought the sox and Frank would work out some kind of deal.

Best of luck Big Guy, thanks for all the memories.

jdm2662
12-07-2005, 10:44 AM
I was going into 8th grade when Frank came up. I remember when Ron Kittle got traded before hand how every kid I knew was upset that he got traded. A kid who was a Cub fan called me and said the Sox traded Ron Kittle to rub it in. My reaction to that was "So?". He was trying to get me upset and rub it in. I then said, "They are going to bring up Frank Thomas from the minors. He is going to be awesome." Sure enough, he was.

I'm disappointed this is the end of the road, but not upset. The Sox couldn't rely on him due to health reasons and needed to move on. I tend not to fall in love with players because you get accustomed to them leaving. It's too bad injuries have hampered him, but it's a part of the game. Thanks Frank, and hope to see you wearing a Sox hat again when you are inducted to the HOF.

Kilroy
12-07-2005, 10:47 AM
I trust, I hope, I pray that KW and the Sox: 1) conducted a full and honest physical to see what FT could contribute, 2) made at least some contractual offer that was honest but honorable, and 3) communicate respectfully with him about their 'no' decision and how important he has been to the organization.

Until I know differently--as with the Rowand trade--my brain says this was necessary, but my heart is not feeling too good.

To your points:

1) We know they did not. Frank stated so.
2) We know they did not. They paid his buyout and KW didn't talk w/ Frank until in the elevator at the winter meetings either yesterday or Monday.
3) We know they did not. Frank found out his fate with the Sox by hearing about the Thome trade and PKs new contract. When Konerko signed, KW wouldn't speak about Thomas saying that he didn't want to say anything w/out talking w/ Thomas first. Somewhat honorable except that he didn't have the decency to just say to Thomas before the trade and the signing, "we're going in a different direction." After 16 years, Thomas didn't deserve that courtesy?

So when the paper quotes Frank as saying "I wish it would have been handled better", you don't have to wonder what he's talking about.

mweflen
12-07-2005, 10:55 AM
To your points:

1) We know they did not. Frank stated so.
2) We know they did not. They paid his buyout and KW didn't talk w/ Frank until in the elevator at the winter meetings either yesterday or Monday.
3) We know they did not. Frank found out his fate with the Sox by hearing about the Thome trade and PKs new contract. When Konerko signed, KW wouldn't speak about Thomas saying that he didn't want to say anything w/out talking w/ Thomas first. Somewhat honorable except that he didn't have the decency to just say to Thomas before the trade and the signing, "we're going in a different direction." After 16 years, Thomas didn't deserve that courtesy?

So when the paper quotes Frank as saying "I wish it would have been handled better", you don't have to wonder what he's talking about.

Ditto ditto ditto.

For all the protestations of "We'll have that conversation with Frank before we announce it in the media," the "conversation" was a chance meeting in an elevator?

LAME.

Flight #24
12-07-2005, 10:57 AM
Ditto ditto ditto.

For all the protestations of "We'll have that conversation with Frank before we announce it in the media," the "conversation" was a chance meeting in an elevator?

LAME.

That's the disappointing part of it. For all the "Sox family" talk, it would have been nice for the Sox to be straight with Frank and just tell him they need to move on or to tell him that they can't offer him more than $1M+incentives and reserve ABs.

kittle42
12-07-2005, 10:58 AM
Honestly, Thomas leaving doesn't bother me much. He was the franchise player for a decade and a half. He was the anchor of the franchise during my teen and college years. I have an autographed, framed Thomas jersey in my office at work.

Nevertheless, baseball is baseball. Players move on - and at this time in the industry, it is getting rarer and rarer to see players spend their entire careers with one organization.

I echo the sentiments of those here who wish he could have stayed, but given the Thome and Konerko moves, it just wasn't to be. And I echo the sentiments of those who think that Thome/Konerko, given all the possible factors, is a better middle of the order to help this team in 2006 than Thomas/Konerko or Thomas/Thome.

So good luck, Big Hurt, and best wishes. I hope they retire his number while he's active as they did Harold Baines. Baines was always treated like god by the Sox, and he wasn't half the player Frank was/is.

kevin57
12-07-2005, 11:00 AM
That's the disappointing part of it. For all the "Sox family" talk, it would have been nice for the Sox to be straight with Frank and just tell him they need to move on or to tell him that they can't offer him more than $1M+incentives and reserve ABs.

More heartbreaking is the thought--the likelihood?--that Frank would have taken that offer because of his loyalty and the possibilities that the 2006 Sox offer. :(:

Frankly Missing
12-07-2005, 11:02 AM
Alot of people seem certain Frank will not be able to play again.

Frank might be old in baseball years or dog years, but he is not old in bone years.

Frank is a healthy 30 something. His bones are able to knit and mend with proper treament.

Of course, this type of injury predisposes him to re-injury.

But it does not guarantee re-injury!

spiffie
12-07-2005, 11:05 AM
And furthermore, the thing the Sox owe the most to, is not the players, it's not the people in the front office, or the coaches. It's the fans. This brings up the thought, what is in the Fans' best interest? Frank or no Frank? There's many things to be considered here, but personally, even if Frank is a risk, I take the chance, because the reward is so much sweeter. I would rather see Frank step up to the plate than any other batter in baseball. I went to Frank's first game back this season because it was Frank. He is and always will be a White Sox. Is there some sentimentality in there? sure. That's what makes baseball great. That's why I love it. Some guy at the Y didn't teach me how to play baseball, my dad did. Jim Thome didn't teach me to love the White Sox, Frank Thomas did. And sure, it's not the same for everyone, especially older fans, but Franks been on the team since I was 3 years old. To me, and many others, he is the White Sox, and he deserved something.

You're right, the team does owe something to the fans. They owe them the best chance of having another October. The couple of million it will end up costing and the roster spot being taken up by a part-time DH with chronic foot problems would make it much harder to win the AL Central.

Or let me ask you this question: Would you rather they resign Frank or go back to the playoffs?

Frank Thomas was someone I loved for many years. But so was Harold Baines. So was Carlton Fisk. So was Ozzie Guillen. So was Robin Ventura. So was Jack McDowell. No player is more important than the team and the organization. I will always have sentiment for Frank Thomas. When he steps up to the plate at USCF in some other uniform I will feel awful, but I'll feel much better if we win the game he does it in. Because in the end we're not fans of any one player...we're fans of the Chicago White Sox, whomever they may be at any given moment. And no matter where Frank plays for 1-2 years, he will always be a member of the Chicago White Sox family.

kittle42
12-07-2005, 11:05 AM
More heartbreaking is the thought--the likelihood?--that Frank would have taken that offer because of his loyalty and the possibilities that the 2006 Sox offer. :(:

And then what? A problem over whom to play and whom to sit every day? Yes, they had this problem for a short while last year with Everett/Thomas, but it didn't manifest itself much, if at all, for two reasons: (1) Thomas couldn't play every day at that point, anyway and (2) Thomas got re-injured before it even had a chance to pick up negative steam.

But you guys tell me - if Thomas is on this team with Konerko and Thome, and they are all healthy all year, how soon until one of them (and I think I'd actually agree with the media as to which one it would be) started chirping about playing time? I don't think any of those three guys would be happy playing 4-5 days a week or less.

Frater Perdurabo
12-07-2005, 11:07 AM
IMHO, although KW deserves tremendous kudos for assembling a World Series-winning team, in this instance he made a poor decision to let go of a player who could have helped the Sox repeat as World Champions.

Frank could have been convinced, through an incentive-laden deal predicated on an estimated 300 plate appearances, to bat exclusively against LHP as the DH, to give both he and Thome all their at-bats in situations where each historically has generated an OPS over 1.000. Also, Frank could have provided a great, cheap insurance policy in the event that Konerko (however unlikely, but still technically possible) or Thome (more possible due to the back problems) were to miss extended time.

The point is that for his production against LHP, Frank could have been had for a relative bargain. He, Thome and Konerko together could have made up the most fearsome 3-4 combo in the American League, which would have afforded the Sox the ability to re-tool on the fly for the next three seasons. Over the next three years, the Sox would have been even better prepared to integrate their rising prospects into the outfield (Anderson, Young, Owens, Sweeney), the rest of the infield (Fields, Valido, Getz) and the bottom of the lineup, while not harming the offense, while still being able to lock-up their most-important core of starting pitchers (Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, McCarthy). They would have been better able to withstand the anticiapted departures (due to large free-agent contract offers) of Dye, Podsednik, Crede and eventually even Iguchi and Uribe.

This is a sad, sad day for White Sox baseball and White Sox fans.

Flight #24
12-07-2005, 11:12 AM
More heartbreaking is the thought--the likelihood?--that Frank would have taken that offer because of his loyalty and the possibilities that the 2006 Sox offer. :(:

I really don't think he would have taken it because he thinks he's healthy and wants ABs to prove he's still dominant. But it wouldn't have hurt the Sox to offer.

dickallen15
12-07-2005, 11:14 AM
Ditto ditto ditto.

For all the protestations of "We'll have that conversation with Frank before we announce it in the media," the "conversation" was a chance meeting in an elevator?

LAME.

After the Sox made the Thome trade, Frank's status was pretty obvious. They didn't say anything to the press, because they wanted to talk to Frank first. Remember, Frank is not the easiest guy for KW to get in touch with during the offseason, and I'm sure he was even more difficult to get in touch with after the Thome trade, because Frank had to be aware of where that trade left him. His agent probably was advised as to the official direction the Sox were going.

Frankly Missing
12-07-2005, 11:29 AM
Or let me ask you this question: Would you rather they resign Frank or go back to the playoffs?



The trouble with this question is.........these two things are not mutually exclusive.

But if you inisist they are, I will answer your question.

When I told my now grown sons that things like respect, dignity, hard work and dedication are more important than winning, I meant it.

Frank got the shaft.

Kilroy
12-07-2005, 11:36 AM
...let me ask you this question: Would you rather they resign Frank or go back to the playoffs?

Why does one preclude the other? In my world, it doesn't.

...Remember, Frank is not the easiest guy for KW to get in touch with during the offseason, and I'm sure he was even more difficult to get in touch with after the Thome trade, because Frank had to be aware of where that trade left him. His agent probably was advised as to the official direction the Sox were going.

Why is it so hard to get hold of Frank? Does he live on the moon? Not only would KW have Frank's number, he'd certainly have his agent's. Aaron Rowand could get hold of Frank. Why not KW? There's already no doubt that neither Frank nor his agent were spoken to. Is that a requirement? No. Would it have been decent and expected for a person after 16 years? Hell yes.

I know that the world changes. Lots of times it changes for the worse. I know the concept of loyalty has been tossed aside, but throwing decency out the window with it shouldn't happen.

daveeym
12-07-2005, 11:36 AM
More heartbreaking is the thought--the likelihood?--that Frank would have taken that offer because of his loyalty and the possibilities that the 2006 Sox offer. :(: Well good don't think about it. Because as long as a starting position was offered elsewhere he wasn't going to be taking this hypothetical offer. That position will be available too. And if by some insane chance he doesn't get that opportunity the door probably is still slightly open for him to return. The best all around hitter of the last 20 years, who's still chasing significant milestones, isn't going to stay to sit the bench out of this perceived "loyalty and love" for the Sox.

kittle42
12-07-2005, 11:38 AM
Well good don't think about it. Because as long as a starting position was offered elsewhere he wasn't going to be taking this hypothetical offer. That position will be available too. And if by some insane chance he doesn't get that opportunity the door probably is still slightly open for him to return. The best all around hitter of the last 20 years, who's still chasing significant milestones, isn't going to stay to sit the bench out of this perceived "loyalty and love" for the Sox.

My sentiments exactly. He wasn't coming back unless he could be assured to start, because he obviosuly thinks he can go every day right now, and that wasn't happening unless Konerko left or Thome never came.

spawn
12-07-2005, 11:40 AM
I'm a HUGE Frank Thomas fan...have been since he broke into the league. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Frank, even when those in the media and elsewhere were down on him. I'm sad to see him go. That said, I don't think KW had a choice, especially after having signed Thome. Thome was needed. We didn't have a left handed power hitter. He'll be good protection for Konerko. Someone mentioned that keeping Frank and Thome along with Konerko would've given us a lethal 3-4 combination in the lineup. So in essence, we would've been paying roughly twenty million dollars for two part-time DH's? Fiscally, that makes absolutely no sense. I'll miss the big guy, but IMHO KW made the right decision.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2005, 11:45 AM
That's the disappointing part of it. For all the "Sox family" talk, it would have been nice for the Sox to be straight with Frank and just tell him they need to move on or to tell him that they can't offer him more than $1M+incentives and reserve ABs.And how do you know they did not? I wouldn't assume there have been NO conversations, perhaps through his agent. Frank Thomas is a big boy - he knows the score. I don't think this was about money at all. If that's all there was they could easily have offered him a low base salary contract. They just decided they can't afford to keep a player on the roster who will have very limited use.

I'm as sad to see Frank Thomas go as anyone. And I've been one of those arguing that there could be a place for him on this team. But I understand completely that they felt they had to move on and Frank Thomas no longer figures in the Sox plans. I don't envy Kenny Williams having to make that decision.

One more thing - don't discount the possibility that this story is being spun by the media to try to manufacture a controversy. Not that they've ever done anything like that before.

Crede_Fan
12-07-2005, 11:47 AM
One more thing - don't discount the possibility that this story is being spun by the media to try to manufacture a controversy. Not that they've ever done anything like that before.


My exact thoughts!

compy75
12-07-2005, 11:49 AM
Similarly to those who have posted before, I have followed and lived and died with Frank since he broke into the league. Hell, I used to breakdown his At bats on the AOL board discussing some of his mechanical issues in the 2002 season.


That being said:

-The Sox have been in desperate need of a left handed stick for year, and Thome on it's face fulfils that need

-Thome is no spring chicken, and he could get hurt.

Here's where the problem lies with KW and the Sox. I think there would be a helluva lot more tolerance if it was Frank and he got hurt, then if it is Thome this year.

That's one twist on this whole situation, Frank getting hurt generated apathy towards the Sox the last two years. Thome will set off fireworks as not only will he not be productive, but he also effectively pushed Frank out the door.

As for Frank, go out and hit your 30 and 100 (Oakland is not a launching pad like USCF).

spiffie
12-07-2005, 11:56 AM
Why does one preclude the other? In my world, it doesn't.
In my world every decision counts. In my world there are 9-10 teams competing for 4 playoff spots. In my world a guy who has shown no ability to stay healthy for any length of time is not someone you can depend on to continue to do his job, no matter how well he once did it.

I know that the world changes. Lots of times it changes for the worse. I know the concept of loyalty has been tossed aside, but throwing decency out the window with it shouldn't happen.
So it would be more decent to take a borderline hall of famer and if he is healthy have him sitting on the bench getting maybe 200 AB's if he's lucky instead of letting him play full-time somewhere and try to get his HOF numbers? Because for all the Frank Thomas fans on this board, a whole lot of them seem content to let his career end rather shabbily just to make sure they don't have to see him play somewhere else. Personally, I hope if he is healthy he latches on somewhere, has a wonderful year or two, and leads his team to the ALCS where they lose to us. I'd enjoy that a hell of a lot more for him over seeing him sitting on the bench for long stretches, answering the inevitable questions by the media trying to get him to put his foot in his mouth and cause discord. That would be an ugly way for him to end his career here. And somehow it would be decent to the other guys on the team to set up a scenario where you are not putting the best possible team on the field? Because in the end Frank is a 37 year old with chronic ankle troubles who can't play anything but DH and will cost a decent amount for someone so inflexible and redundant in terms of baseball skills. Frank may have some baseball left. I don't think he does, but I hope I'm wrong. But I'd rather see him get a full-time chance somewhere else than be stuck as the third wheel in the DH situation here. That would depress me more than seeing him his 300/30/100 for someone else.

kevin57
12-07-2005, 12:08 PM
Well good don't think about it. Because as long as a starting position was offered elsewhere he wasn't going to be taking this hypothetical offer. That position will be available too. And if by some insane chance he doesn't get that opportunity the door probably is still slightly open for him to return. The best all around hitter of the last 20 years, who's still chasing significant milestones, isn't going to stay to sit the bench out of this perceived "loyalty and love" for the Sox.

Assuming what you say to be true, I'm more okay with the decision to cut Frank loose. With Thome and Konerko, FT was not going to be the day-to-day guy. Now, how they "broke that news" to Frank, I think, may still be fair game to critique.

Maximo
12-07-2005, 12:22 PM
Frank Thomas was once my favorite Sox player and will always hold a special place in my heart. Carlton Fisk was also my favorite player at one time and he, too, will forever remain one of my heroes.

That being said, I find the two situations toward the end of their careers with the Sox very similar. In his mind, Pudge felt he could still be a key contributor to the Sox even though it was apparent to all of us his skills had diminished. In an attempt to become the all time home run leader for catchers, the Sox kept him on their roster and waited patiently for him to reach that magic number as they watched him continue to digress. At the end, he became more embittered with the organization because he felt disrespected.

Frank, on the other hand, may still have the talent to make contributions, but he's closer to 40 years old than 30. Furthermore, he has had a problem with injuries in recent years. Injuries, because of his age and weight, will nag him for the rest of his playing days. Frank would have only been happy here if he would have been an important part of this line-up and paid accordingly because in his mind he's still worth it. As a fan of both Frank and the White Sox, had he stayed I think the final parting of the ways would have been very similar to Fisk's.

I don't begrudge Frank for believing in his abilities and wanting to achieve milestones. I also don't blame the Sox for thinking the guy's best days are behind him and wanting to move on.

This day has been coming for a long time and I don't see how it could have worked out otherwise.

Beauty35thStreet
12-07-2005, 12:27 PM
Yeah..... this year was bittersweet. Ultimate goal is to win the championship. And whether we like it or not, we all know that frank would have put a burden on payroll to the point where we wouldnt be able to keep konerko. But Frank will always be a white sock in my eyes.

I don't even think he would have been a problem on the payroll, it was more about him getting enough ABs. Really this came down to the question of whether we'd have Konerko. If Frank is 100%, I don't see them going after Thome---I still argue a healthy Frank as better than Thome. However, Konerko wasn't a guarantee, so they wanted Thome. If Konerko did sign, which he did, there's now a nice problem w/regads to 1B/DH switchoffs. I almost think the Sox wanted to end their relationship (for now) because I don't know if they are confident with his help.

The Sox are still a great team, I think they can repeat, and Frank is going to be good if he is as healthy as he says he is. That's what burns me. I wanted to see him on the repeat team badly. I felt he deserved that even with Thome around.

Flight #24
12-07-2005, 12:28 PM
And how do you know they did not? I wouldn't assume there have been NO conversations, perhaps through his agent. Frank Thomas is a big boy - he knows the score. I don't think this was about money at all. If that's all there was they could easily have offered him a low base salary contract. They just decided they can't afford to keep a player on the roster who will have very limited use.



I'm just going by the published quotes from Frank, which are pretty explicit that he hasn't had any discussions with Kenny in the past few weeks. On AM1000, KW confirmed that in a roundabout way when he said that he thought they'd communicated and "been good" to Frank throughout the year. He could have easily said "I talked with Frank after the Thome trade to discuss our feelings and thought process". He didn't.

As you do, I think it was determined early on that a)they couldn't rely on Frank and b)they couldn't use a roster spot on a reserve DH. I don't fault them for that decision. I just think the communications could have been handled better, and that they could at least have let it be Frank's decision not to be a reserve player (knowing that he almost certainly would have declined to do so).

They absolutely need to do something for Frank, either retiring his # immediately, or having a significant ceremony welcoming him back with whatever team he ends up with when they visit USCF.

MadetoOrta
12-07-2005, 12:30 PM
We all love the Big Hurt but this is a BUSINESS. A business about WINNING and keeping the bottom line intact. I will pretend these protestations from the Hurt never occurred. I will give him a standing ovation every time he hits - yes, even if he's on the Twins. He's the best Sox hitter of all time and we were privileged to have witnessed him. Move on.

bighurt2719
12-07-2005, 12:33 PM
frank is being kinda childish if he really feels slighted by not being resigned. he has it pretty good, even though he is leaving.

consider that he is a household name in chicago (and most of the country). he was an allstar here, he won some titles, and to top it off, he got a world series ring.

i love frank, but we are world series or bust on '06. thanks for the memories frank :gulp:.

i can really see frank turning into a harold baines, where he floats around from team to team being a player/coach/mentor. he could be like sandy alomar, jr. in that sense. he's been around for a while and he's got a wealth of baseball knowledge. ideally, i wish the sox would bring him back as a hitting coach or a bench coach some day.

whatever happens to the big hurt, you know his baseball career will not be over for some time.

Beauty35thStreet
12-07-2005, 12:40 PM
If Kenny didn't give him a physical, I don't know if that means dislike for Frank or he had it in his mind he was already gone. That does burn me considering the Thome and Hernandez stuff. Kenny may have been the architect and arguably the person most responsible for the championship team, but as long as Frank wants to play for the Sox and acts like he always has, I'd be on his side anyday.

Baseball is a sport where you can look at individual #s and still worry about a team. I still don't see how he was selfish.

You aren't the only one. Great points - it is even harder to swallow if Kenny did, in fact, not talk contract with Frank and at least give him a physical. After all, he was willing to take on Hernandez last year and Thome this year after injury seasons.

Beauty35thStreet
12-07-2005, 12:52 PM
The trouble with this question is.........these two things are not mutually exclusive.

But if you inisist they are, I will answer your question.

When I told my now grown sons that things like respect, dignity, hard work and dedication are more important than winning, I meant it.

Frank got the shaft.

Spiffie, that's a pretty ridiculous statement. What makes you think the Sox are automatics to the playoffs? You saw Cleveland do their thing. In addition, Minnesota had horrible luck last year, even though I still thought we were better.

I think we'll repeat, but not because of a gain of Thome.

I don't blame the Sox for what they did and unless they offered him a bench position, I'm agreeing with Kilroy that the Sox did the wrong thing, even if it costs them the Series, which it wouldn't (assuming he is as healthy as he says he is).

The Series/playoffs is going to be determined by health, good pitching, defense, and reasonable hitting. Most importantly, pitching health! The Sox got lucky their pitching was so good and healthy and deep (McCarthy when Hernandez was hurt). If Perez can play 1B, then Thome can play 3B. In addition, we carried an extra pitcher when most teams carry an extra position player. We could've had Frank there for 2006 playoffs.

Deadguy
12-07-2005, 12:53 PM
If you must give sympathy to anyone, give it to our soldiers, regardless of your political leanings. They aren't paid millions, and their job isn't glorious. I pity these soldiers because some of them may not even make it back to our country to experience the opportunities that Thomas has grown to be "accustomed to".



Take this nonsenese to an off topic forum, since you're judging Thomas in a rather fragmented perspective that is out of context. :rolleyes:

This is a baseball forum, afterall.

Besides, it doesn't sound like Thomas is mired in self pity, and nothing he said isn't true. He seems like he's pumped and ready to go for the 2006 season. Good for him.

Thomas had the third longest tenure of any player in baseball, so don't be surprised that there are people disappointed to see him leave.

Even if the guy was Rickey Henderson, when a player leaves after 16 seasons, fans get sentimental.

daveeym
12-07-2005, 12:59 PM
We all love the Big Hurt but this is a BUSINESS. A business about WINNING and keeping the bottom line intact. I will pretend these protestations from the Hurt never occurred. I will give him a standing ovation every time he hits - yes, even if he's on the Twins. He's the best Sox hitter of all time and we were privileged to have witnessed him. Move on. I don't think Frank really said anything wrong and it's a non-issue. Anyone would be hurt a little pissed given the situation. As it stands now it would be dissapointing if all Frank did is shrug his shoulders and move on. On the other hand hopefully he doesn't take it further than he has now.

If Kenny didn't give him a physical, I don't know if that means dislike for Frank or he had it in his mind he was already gone. That does burn me considering the Thome and Hernandez stuff. Kenny may have been the architect and arguably the person most responsible for the championship team, but as long as Frank wants to play for the Sox and acts like he always has, I'd be on his side anyday.

The fact of the matter is Frank was gone once those two signed. No matter what any physical said, no matter how healthy Frank looked. On the Sox part the risk was too great to take in an attempt to repeat. Also, there's way too much other work to do than worry about Frank at this time because it's almost a certainty that someone is going to offer Frank a chance to play. It's rather pointless for the Sox to waste any effort on Frank until he's tested the market. If no one will offer him a starting spot it means the ankle's not as promising as Frank and his agent say. Then let's start talking about weather the Sox "Owe" Frank a shot at rehabbing and an incentive laden contract.
Because i'd say it's 99% certain that chance will never arise and Frank gets signed. His risk is too high for the Sox but for other teams it's well worth it. As it is, it's all a bunch of hand wringing over nothing at this point.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2005, 01:32 PM
In my opinion it is as simple as this.

If the Sox had a 'Yankee-like' budget they could have afforded to sign Frank and take a chance.

HOWEVER would Frank have been happy to play roughly 'once or twice' a week? Would that started to have become a problem for him say around June?

It takes two to tango folks. I'm not blaming anyone, just saying that between the foot issues, Frank's personality and the inability from a budget standpoint to come up with the funds the Sox decided it was to large of a risk.

I wish things could have been different and hoped that it would be however circumstances didn't allow it. I look forward to Frank getting into the Hall of Fame someday wearing a Sox hat. (Which he will since the Hall is now selecting them for inductees...)

Lip

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2005, 01:39 PM
In my opinion it is as simple as this.

If the Sox had a 'Yankee-like' budget they could have afforded to sign Frank and take a chance.

HOWEVER would Frank have been happy to play roughly 'once or twice' a week? Would that started to have become a problem for him say around June?

It takes two to tango folks. I'm not blaming anyone, just saying that between the foot issues, Frank's personality and the inability from a budget standpoint to come up with the funds the Sox decided it was to large of a risk.

I wish things could have been different and hoped that it would be however circumstances didn't allow it. I look forward to Frank getting into the Hall of Fame someday wearing a Sox hat. (Which he will since the Hall is now selecting them for inductees...)

LipAgreed, except I really don't think dollars had anything to do with it. He's only going to get a small base contract, and given Reinsdorf's famous loyalty, I'm sure he'd come up with a few million out of this year's playoff revenue to keep Frank around. But they still have to live with a 25 man roster, and I think they just decided that they can't afford to use a roster spot for a part-time DH.

RKMeibalane
12-07-2005, 01:43 PM
Yeah, it kinda sucks but it seems a lot of players leave this organization having bad feelings. Frank wasn't "forced" to move on. Frank forced the Sox organization to have to move on due to his inability to stay healthy (obviously something that wasn't really in his control). It sucks that it ends this way, but it is what it is.

I'm not really surprised by it. It's been my feeling for the better part of 5 months now that Frank would not be back in 2006. I've been expecting this move for a while so it's not a big surprise and I've already gotten past the disappointment part of knowing that Frank won't be back.

I agree. It's not surprising that Frank feels this way, nor was it surprising that the Sox didn't bring him back. Times change, and circumstances. If Frank had been in healthy in 2005, there's no question he would have been retained. It's sad that this franchise's greatest player won't finish his career with the Sox, but that's the way things work sometimes.

I think Frank will have a big season in Oakland, and I look forward to seeing the Sox and A's face-off in the playoffs.

Taliesinrk
12-07-2005, 01:55 PM
Frank Thomas will not be able to play a full season in 2006. He will not be able to play anywhere near a full season in 2006.

Thank you Dr.... what's your name again?

mwc44
12-07-2005, 01:58 PM
As much as I hate to say it, "business is business" and if KW wants to add another trophy, he did what he had to do. In any event, even though it may appear that you weren't ushered out in a way befitting you, try not to leave pi**ed... your fans won't forget you... and GOOD LUCK!

TheVulture
12-07-2005, 02:05 PM
Let me summarize all of your posts:
"I'M A SOLDIER. I WAS IN NAM. RARRRRRRRR. RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY."

How has this guy not gotten the boot?

Beauty35thStreet
12-07-2005, 02:07 PM
[QUOTE=daveeym]
The fact of the matter is Frank was gone once those two signed. No matter what any physical said, no matter how healthy Frank looked. On the Sox part the risk was too great to take in an attempt to repeat. Also, there's way too much other work to do than worry about Frank at this time because it's almost a certainty that someone is going to offer Frank a chance to play. It's rather pointless for the Sox to waste any effort on Frank until he's tested the market. If no one will offer him a starting spot it means the ankle's not as promising as Frank and his agent say. Then let's start talking about weather the Sox "Owe" Frank QUOTE]

I agree that he wasn't going to play, but felt they at least owed him the chance to leave the team on his terms.

Shift
12-07-2005, 02:10 PM
I like Frank as much as the next guy, buy Frank has had 16 years here. In his last year, the team, in his words, carried him to a WS Championship. He shouldn't have a critical word to say about the White Sox.

Nothing can tarnish '05. World Champs.

IlliniSox4Life
12-07-2005, 02:14 PM
You're right, the team does owe something to the fans. They owe them the best chance of having another October. The couple of million it will end up costing and the roster spot being taken up by a part-time DH with chronic foot problems would make it much harder to win the AL Central.

Or let me ask you this question: Would you rather they resign Frank or go back to the playoffs?

First of all, I seem to recall a certain team going coast to coast in first place this year and winning the World Series without Jim Thome and with little production from Frank Thomas. So the answer to your question is Both.

I can throw out ridiculous questions too:
Would you rather they paint the entire stadium pink next year so they get funding from *insert company with pink color* or not have been able to sign Paulie?
Would you rather the Sox change their name to the Hanes Premium White Tube Socks or move to Tampa?

Ok, now that we're done with that:

Frank Thomas was someone I loved for many years. But so was Harold Baines. So was Carlton Fisk. So was Ozzie Guillen. So was Robin Ventura. So was Jack McDowell. No player is more important than the team and the organization. I will always have sentiment for Frank Thomas. When he steps up to the plate at USCF in some other uniform I will feel awful, but I'll feel much better if we win the game he does it in. Because in the end we're not fans of any one player...we're fans of the Chicago White Sox, whomever they may be at any given moment. And no matter where Frank plays for 1-2 years, he will always be a member of the Chicago White Sox family.

Yes, I am a fan of the Chicago White Sox over Frank Thomas. That is true. But one of the reasons I felt especially close to the team this year was their style of play and attitude. They were a group of guys that cared a lot about eachother. They also had class. There weren't any Barry Bonds or Terrell Owens on this team. I felt the same class was in the organization, and for the most part it is. I still think Kenny did what he thought was right for the organization and the fans, so I don't blame his motives behind it, but the more and more I hear, the more and more I blame the way he handled it. There is such a thing as ethics. And in the case of PK, he handled it well. Explained to Paulie that he was going to wait till the end of the season to offer him an extension, and then let him test the market with no grudges on either side. If he didn't even get a physical from Frank or talk to him about it, that's bad business.

Would you be upset if your boss decided to fire you after 16 years without so much as giving you a performance review or maybe an offer at a reduced salary?

On the subject of Frank verse Thome. All stats and production equal for next season, 95% of the people on this board would prefer Frank over Thome.

Now what does that mean? It means sentimentality does count. Otherwise people wouldn't care. It's why Paulie signed here for less money than Baltimore. You'd be complaining about Paulie going to the O's for a million more a year and less a chance to win. But hey, isn't it a business? It means it was so sweet for Astros fans to see Biggio in the World Series after so many years. It means people stopped showing up after the strike season in 94 because they felt betrayed. It means there is more to baseball than a business or the numbers. This isn't our national pastime because we love seeing athletes make plenty of money or because we prefer hitting baseballs to kicking soccer balls. Baseball is as American as apple pie, and if you don't agree with me then fine, but there should be more ethics and loyalty in baseball, and apparently for Kenny Williams that applies to everybody but Frank Thomas. Previously I didn't blame Kenny because I did think he was making what he thought was the best decision even though I thought he was underestimating Frank for next year. But if he didn't have the decency to talk to him or offer him something, even the minimum salary and only the guarantee of a few ABs a week, then that's just bad. And don't tell me Frank isn't worth whatever his minimum he could possibly make is and a bench spot even if he is a big injury risk. Any team would take that chance on him.

Man, I sound like I'm 80 years old.

Kilroy
12-07-2005, 02:22 PM
So it would be more decent to take a borderline hall of famer and if he is healthy have him sitting on the bench getting maybe 200 AB's if he's lucky instead of letting him play full-time somewhere and try to get his HOF numbers?

I didn't suggest any such thing. What I said was that the decent thing for KW to do for a 16 year, one team veteran, all-star, HOF caliber player would be to give the man a call and state his intentions. Be an man and treat Frank like a man. He definitely earned that.

Personally, I hope if he is healthy he latches on somewhere, has a wonderful year or two, and leads his team to the ALCS where they lose to us...

Sorry, but imagining Frank Thomas in any other uniform is as distasteful to me as imagining Walter Payton wearing Packer green and gold. I almost puked typing that.

mwc44
12-07-2005, 02:26 PM
Sorry, but imagining Frank Thomas in any other uniform is as distasteful to me as imagining Walter Payton wearing Packer green and gold. I almost puked typing that.

Couldn't have said it better myself! wtg, Kilroy!

Flight #24
12-07-2005, 02:40 PM
FWIW - Gammons was just on the Dan Patrick show and reiterated the A's as his likely destination. However he made an interesting comment - that nothing could be done until January when his medical status could be cleared. No elaboration on that.

We'll see if & when he signs, but that does kind of support KW's decision - hands are tied if you can't get a good read health-wise by 12/7 and you only have until then to offer arbitration.

However, it doesn't excuse KW from making a call to Frank and telling him that they won't offer arb as well as why not, or from calling and offering him a small contract as a reserve. Or hell - from just calling him to say "Hey Frank, we can't offer you arbitration, but I will tell you this - if come May you're healthy and interested in coming back in whatever role we have available, we'll do what we can to keep you in the org."

white sox bill
12-07-2005, 02:55 PM
Baseball is a brutal business...just like any other business, take your emotions out of it. Hurt is gone, Lord knows we loved the memories, but time to move on. We won it all and he missed almost entire year. We can still win it again.

Flight #24
12-07-2005, 02:59 PM
One thing that popped into my head - does a move from the Sox to the A's help Frank's 1st ballot HOF chances? If he bounces back, he'll do it for a media darling in Beane and likely get much more laudatory commentary than were he with the Sox and having everything colored by the local mediots.

Not that he needs the help, but there are definitely some idiot writers who'd probably vote against him because of perceived attitude and anti-DH biases.

IlliniSox4Life
12-07-2005, 03:09 PM
One thing that popped into my head - does a move from the Sox to the A's help Frank's 1st ballot HOF chances? If he bounces back, he'll do it for a media darling in Beane and likely get much more laudatory commentary than were he with the Sox and having everything colored by the local mediots.

Not that he needs the help, but there are definitely some idiot writers who'd probably vote against him because of perceived attitude and anti-DH biases.

All his future numbers being equal, staying with one team helps his hall chances more than going to play for somebody like Beane or the Yanks or BoSox.

But if he is able to put up more numbers there than here, I think it will do more good to his hall chances than if he put up very few more numbers here. Not that I think he isn't already a HOFer, but going to the A's and reaching 500 HRs helps him more than staying here and getting only 20 more HRs.

Frater Perdurabo
12-07-2005, 03:20 PM
It didn't have to be an issue of a roster spot, because Jim Thome's ability to play first base made Ross Gload expendable. Thome replaced both Everett and Gload. With Ozuna and Harris able to play the infield and outfield, there would have been room for Frank on the roster if Kenny had been more creative.

Starting OFs: Pods, Dye, Anderson
Starting IFs: Crede, Konerko, Iguchi, Uribe
Backup IFs/OFs: Harris, Ozuna
Cs: AJ, Widger
SPs: Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, Contreras, El Duque, McCarthy
BPs: Jenks, Cotts, Politte, Marte, Hermanson, Vizcaino
DH/PH: Thome, Frank

Furthermore, dumping the "weakest" bullpen pitcher (Marte? Hermanson if his back won't heal? Vizcaino?), simply because El Duque could be used in long relief, would even make room for a guy like Borchard or Timo.

Flight #24
12-07-2005, 03:27 PM
It didn't have to be an issue of a roster spot, because Jim Thome's ability to play first base made Ross Gload expendable. Thome replaced both Everett and Gload. With Ozuna and Harris able to play the infield and outfield, there would have been room for Frank on the roster if Kenny had been more creative.

Starting OFs: Pods, Dye, Anderson
Starting IFs: Crede, Konerko, Iguchi, Uribe
Backup IFs/OFs: Harris, Ozuna
Cs: AJ, Widger
SPs: Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, Contreras, El Duque, McCarthy
BPs: Jenks, Cotts, Politte, Marte, Hermanson, Vizcaino
DH/PH: Thome, Frank

Furthermore, dumping the "weakest" bullpen pitcher (Marte? Hermanson if his back won't heal? Vizcaino?), simply because El Duque could be used in long relief, would even make room for a guy like Borchard or Timo.

There are still questions around which has more value to the team. IMO an extra bullpen pitcher would probably have more on-field value than a reserve DH. And they may be looking at Gload as gone anyway, and having that roster spot available for an extra reserve able to play the field in multiple slots.

But more likely, IMO they just figure that in the event Konerko goes down, Gload's value is in helping keep Thome healthy by being able to keep him at DH.

kittle42
12-07-2005, 03:33 PM
It didn't have to be an issue of a roster spot, because Jim Thome's ability to play first base made Ross Gload expendable. Thome replaced both Everett and Gload. With Ozuna and Harris able to play the infield and outfield, there would have been room for Frank on the roster if Kenny had been more creative.

Starting OFs: Pods, Dye, Anderson
Starting IFs: Crede, Konerko, Iguchi, Uribe
Backup IFs/OFs: Harris, Ozuna
Cs: AJ, Widger
SPs: Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, Contreras, El Duque, McCarthy
BPs: Jenks, Cotts, Politte, Marte, Hermanson, Vizcaino
DH/PH: Thome, Frank

Furthermore, dumping the "weakest" bullpen pitcher (Marte? Hermanson if his back won't heal? Vizcaino?), simply because El Duque could be used in long relief, would even make room for a guy like Borchard or Timo.

If Ozuna and Harris are the backup OFs, I am running for the hills.

TomBradley72
12-07-2005, 03:39 PM
FWIW - Gammons was just on the Dan Patrick show and reiterated the A's as his likely destination. However he made an interesting comment - that nothing could be done until January when his medical status could be cleared. No elaboration on that.

We'll see if & when he signs, but that does kind of support KW's decision - hands are tied if you can't get a good read health-wise by 12/7 and you only have until then to offer arbitration.



Because Frank's health can't be accurately assessed until January is exactly why events unfolded as they did:

1. Needed to go after/make a decision on Thome quickly...to make sure Twins/Tribe didn't get him as well as demonstrate to PK the commitment to next year....so that we could:
2. Sign PK...he specifically said he was very close to leaving...and the Thome signing was a big factor...so you're covered at 1B and DH...that leads to:
3. Do you want Frank...a guy who as of spring '06 will be 38 years old, three years removed from his last productive season, can't run, can barely play the field (if at all), using up a roster spot as opposed to the versatile/speedy/good defense type of player Ozzie prefers coming off the bench? The answer from KW was no. I agree with him.

Would it be different if Frank had been healthy the last two years? Absolutely...but that's not the reality.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2005, 03:42 PM
It didn't have to be an issue of a roster spot, because Jim Thome's ability to play first base made Ross Gload expendable. Thome replaced both Everett and Gload. With Ozuna and Harris able to play the infield and outfield, there would have been room for Frank on the roster if Kenny had been more creative.

Starting OFs: Pods, Dye, Anderson
Starting IFs: Crede, Konerko, Iguchi, Uribe
Backup IFs/OFs: Harris, Ozuna
Cs: AJ, Widger
SPs: Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, Contreras, El Duque, McCarthy
BPs: Jenks, Cotts, Politte, Marte, Hermanson, Vizcaino
DH/PH: Thome, Frank

Furthermore, dumping the "weakest" bullpen pitcher (Marte? Hermanson if his back won't heal? Vizcaino?), simply because El Duque could be used in long relief, would even make room for a guy like Borchard or Timo.Assuming they keep 12 pitchers, that leaves 4 bench spots available, typically 1 catcher, 2 IF and 1 OF. Adding Frank Thomas means you have to get someone able to handle multiple positions, which is easier said than done. As kittle42 said somewhat more colorfully, Ozuna and Harris are not really good options as backup OF. If they had someone like Blum who could backup all IF positions, it might be possible, but with the current bench, I think you lose much more than you gain.

Jjav829
12-07-2005, 03:43 PM
Because Frank's health can't be accurately assessed until January is exactly why events unfolded as they did:

1. Needed to go after/make a decision on Thome quickly...to make sure Twins/Tribe didn't get him as well as demonstrate to PK the commitment to next year....so that we could:
2. Sign PK...he specifically said he was very close to leaving...and the Thome signing was a big factor...so you're covered at 1B and DH...that leads to:
3. Do you want Frank...a guy who as of spring '06 will be 38 years old, three years removed from his last productive season, can't run, can barely play the field (if at all), using up a roster spot as opposed to the versatile/speedy/good defense type of player Ozzie prefers coming off the bench? The answer from KW was no. I agree with him.

Would it be different if Frank had been healthy the last two years? Absolutely...but that's not the reality.

Correct. And don't forget the money aspect of this as well. If the Sox were to bring back Frank it wouldn't be until January, or at least after today. Today is the arbitration deadline. That means that to be able to continue to negotiate with Frank the Sox would have to offer arbitration. The minimum that Frank would have made through arbitration, and you can bet he would strongly consider arbitration, would be $6.4 million! That's $6.4 million for a guy who would simply be a bench player. That $6.4 million could be used for midseason upgrades if we struggle to get production from the CF spot, or if someone gets injured (ie Crede's back flairs up), etc. It's just not a wise move from a baseball perspective.

TomBradley72
12-07-2005, 03:52 PM
Starting OFs: Pods, Dye, Anderson
Starting IFs: Crede, Konerko, Iguchi, Uribe
Backup IFs/OFs: Harris, Ozuna
Cs: AJ, Widger
SPs: Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, Contreras, El Duque, McCarthy
BPs: Jenks, Cotts, Politte, Marte, Hermanson, Vizcaino
DH/PH: Thome, Frank

Furthermore, dumping the "weakest" bullpen pitcher (Marte? Hermanson if his back won't heal? Vizcaino?), simply because El Duque could be used in long relief, would even make room for a guy like Borchard or Timo.

I disagree....I don't like the idea at all of having Harris/Ozuna as my primary back up OF's. With the WBC coming up in March...the pitchers will be more taxed than they were last year...and we can't bet on staying as healthy as we did in 2005....we need the pitching depth and a strong 4th OF more than we need a back up DH who can't play the field, can't run and hasn't had a healthy season since 2003.

Flight #24
12-07-2005, 04:23 PM
Correct. And don't forget the money aspect of this as well. If the Sox were to bring back Frank it wouldn't be until January, or at least after today. Today is the arbitration deadline. That means that to be able to continue to negotiate with Frank the Sox would have to offer arbitration. The minimum that Frank would have made through arbitration, and you can bet he would strongly consider arbitration, would be $6.4 million! That's $6.4 million for a guy who would simply be a bench player. That $6.4 million could be used for midseason upgrades if we struggle to get production from the CF spot, or if someone gets injured (ie Crede's back flairs up), etc. It's just not a wise move from a baseball perspective.

I agree that Frank just didn't fit anymore because of the injuries.
However, the one catch to your comment above is that nothing would have prevented KW from offering Frank a reduced contract last week and telling him that if he wanted to stay he had to accept ASAP since they couldn't offer arb. They also could have reduced the offer given that they couldn't yet get clarity on his health. I highly highly doubt that Frank would have taken the deal, but from an organizational perspective, they'd be able to say they did all they could, something I don't believe they can say 100% now.

I don't have any issues with the decision, but I guess I'd agree with Frank that IMO it seems like it could have been handled better in terms of communication.

ND_Sox_Fan
12-07-2005, 04:24 PM
FWIW - Gammons was just on the Dan Patrick show and reiterated the A's as his likely destination. However he made an interesting comment - that nothing could be done until January when his medical status could be cleared. No elaboration on that.

We'll see if & when he signs, but that does kind of support KW's decision - hands are tied if you can't get a good read health-wise by 12/7 and you only have until then to offer arbitration.

If that is the case, it gets Kenny off of my hook; the risk of not doing anything with Thome was too large if we aren't going to know anything until January. If we know now or could know now - then I fault Kenny.

This puts the union contract on my hook. I hate this arb deadline/can't offer a contract until May stuff. It is garbage - it should include a waiver (on time or minimum salary) for major injury and other situations.

Beauty35thStreet
12-07-2005, 04:29 PM
Baseball is as American as apple pie, and if you don't agree with me then fine, but there should be more ethics and loyalty in baseball, and apparently for Kenny Williams that applies to everybody but Frank Thomas. Previously I didn't blame Kenny because I did think he was making what he thought was the best decision even though I thought he was underestimating Frank for next year. But if he didn't have the decency to talk to him or offer him something, even the minimum salary and only the guarantee of a few ABs a week, then that's just bad.



Preaching to the choir on this one brother!

Assuming there was no offer to play at all this year, at the league minmum. That's wrong. I can understand the 6.4 million for a back-up but not a May visit or whatever.

spiffie
12-07-2005, 04:40 PM
Preaching to the choir on this one brother!

Assuming there was no offer to play at all this year, at the league minmum. That's wrong. I can understand the 6.4 million for a back-up but not a May visit or whatever.
If I were Frank Thomas, and KW came to me and said "hey, if no one else in baseball wants you, we'll see if we can't float you the minimum salary in May." I would be more pissed than not to be spoken to at all. Frank believes he is capable of multiple years of 500+ AB's judging by his actions. Why would you even bother to say such a thing to a guy. That'd be like if our offer to Konerko was "hey, if no one else wants you, we'll sign you for what you made last year. Well maybe a bit less, since you weren't that good early this year."

Yes, maybe KW could have handled things better, if everything the media is saying is 100% accurate. But really, Frank is not a dumb guy. I don't think he needed anyone to tell him what was going down or to be given some ridiculously low contract offer contingent on his being totally unsignable by any other team.

dickallen15
12-07-2005, 05:02 PM
FWIW - Gammons was just on the Dan Patrick show and reiterated the A's as his likely destination. However he made an interesting comment - that nothing could be done until January when his medical status could be cleared. No elaboration on that.

We'll see if & when he signs, but that does kind of support KW's decision - hands are tied if you can't get a good read health-wise by 12/7 and you only have until then to offer arbitration.

However, it doesn't excuse KW from making a call to Frank and telling him that they won't offer arb as well as why not, or from calling and offering him a small contract as a reserve. Or hell - from just calling him to say "Hey Frank, we can't offer you arbitration, but I will tell you this - if come May you're healthy and interested in coming back in whatever role we have available, we'll do what we can to keep you in the org."

So there you go. All of this ready to go now stuff is just Frank. The White Sox want to win again and can't wait for Frank to show he is healthy. They made what appears to be a good deal to bring a guy in who hits similar to Frank, bats left handed, and actually can be used in the field. There is nowhere to put Frank now, as far as a Chicago White Sox. He isn't particularly adept at pinch hitting, he can't run, he can't field. Signing him would have been a waste of money and a waste of a roster spot. He will have a much better chance to reach his individual goals on another team, given that he is healthy enough to reach them.

maurice
12-07-2005, 05:16 PM
IMO, without knowing more info, there's no glaring reason to criticize KW or Frank. Their divergent positions are understandable in light of their individual perspectives, though they may be difficult to understand from a fan's perspective.

KW made a cold, business decision that Anderson / Thome / Konerko was the way to go at the expense of Rowand / Thomas / _____. Only time will tell if that was the right decision, but it's not a baseless decision. Given KW's obvious competence in this area and his superior knowledge of the relevant issues, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's possible that he handled it badly on a personal level, but we don't really know that for a fact. Frank declined to go into detail.

OTOH, from Frank's perspective, everything he said is 100% correct. He wanted to re-sign with the only organization he's known -- where he set numerous team records over the course of a HOF career -- but was prevented from doing so by KW's decision to replace him with a different old, injured guy. Even assuming that KW's decision was objectively correct from a neutral viewpoint (an open question), it doesn't change the fact that Frank's feelings and statements are perfectly understandable, especially when you consider the timing and his subjective confidence that he will be 100% healthy in 2006.

kingpin_rcs
12-07-2005, 05:34 PM
Now that Frank is no longer with the white sox (barring a miracle come May 1st), the obvious questions now are:

How long before they officially retire #35?

How long before his face goes on the outfield wall?

Will there be any sort of video tribute played when he comes back with what ever team he comes back with?

How long will the standing ovation last when he comes to bat in his first game back in Chicago with his new team?

When does he get his ring? Will they let him come back like Derek Lowe and others did with the Red Sox?

Who is going to raise the championship flag on opening day?

Will Frank have Mike Cameron like determination when playing against the Sox?

Will Ozzie select him to play in the All-Star game?

...to mention a few

RKMeibalane
12-07-2005, 05:40 PM
Will Ozzie select him to play in the All-Star game?

I doubt it, because the game is in a National League park this coming season.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-07-2005, 07:19 PM
I'm not a doctor, so I'm taking it at face value when I'm told that Frank's foot condition is more acute than Thome's back or elbow. We'll just have to wait and see whether the medical "experts" know what they're talking about.

It's a risk regardless of whether Thome or Thomas plays for the Sox. I'm still hopeful Frank and the Sox find a way to bring The Greatest Hitter in Franchise History back to the South Side before his career ends. He deserves it, and so do we.

Let's not forget Harold Baines was TRADED by the Sox two separate times and he still managed to come back for a third time. That's what being a favorite of Jerry Reinsdorf will do for you.

Vernam
12-07-2005, 08:48 PM
That's fine, but also understand that this wasn't a Thome or Frank decision. If it wasn't Jim Thome that Kenny traded for to replace Frank it would have been Lyle Overbay, Aubrey Huff, Todd Helton, etc. The decision wasn't made based on whether Thome or Frank will be better next year. The decision Kenny had to make was whether to rely on Frank again. Clearly Kenny decided that he couldn't make that decision again and had to go in another direction. Then the decision was simply who to acquire as a replacement.I violently agree. KW dodged a bullet this year. If the Sox had narrowly missed winning the Division, ALDS, ALCS, or WS, he would have been roasted for having counted on Frank in 2005 and for not having a better backup plan than Everett. For everyone upset with Frank's leaving, I ask whether you'd trade the 2005 championship to keep him . . . Right, I didn't think so. And in that case, I don't know why anyone would jeopardize winning in 2006 for the same reason.

It's a tough, tough business. In a perfect world, Frank would have retired in a Sox uniform. But teams that make roster decisions by putting sentiment ahead of competition are also-rans. I'm glad we have a GM whose priorities are straight and who has the guts and conviction to do what's right for the team, as opposed to protecting himself. I think Frank would even concede as much, once his understandable disappointment passes.

All the best to the big guy. He could rake with the best of all time, and I wouldn't be surprised if he has a great year to silence the mediots who claim he isn't a first-ballot Hall of Famer.

Vernam

Ward Hershberger
12-07-2005, 09:28 PM
Also agree that in my view of a perfect world, Frank would return to the Sox. Its so rare in sports today for a star player to complete a career with a single team - not even Willie Mays or Hank Aaron could do it - would have been a special accomplishment for the team as well as for Frank. Objectively, given Frank's physical problem, I can't argue much with KW, and getting Thome was an exceptional move, but I would trade Konerko for a healthy Thomas. How can a guy batting 4th who hit 40 HR in 664 PA, only have 13 more RBI than Everett who appeared 117 fewer times? In other words, Carl had more RBI per plate appearance than Paul - and we let Everett go without a whimper. Frank even in his limited PT, hit the same number of SF (3) as Konerko - Something's not right here.

Kilroy
12-07-2005, 09:29 PM
...I ask whether you'd trade the 2005 championship to keep him . . . Right, I didn't think so. And in that case, I don't know why anyone would jeopardize winning in 2006 for the same reason.

The only problem with that logic is that the moves made so far don't guarantee winning in 2006 any more than sticking it out w/ Frank in the fold guarantees losing.

Thome passed his physical but there's no telling when back problems will recurr. As someone with a bad back, I can tell you that you can hurt it all over again just walking to the john to take a piss. There's no rhyme or reason when it comes to lower backs.

Flight #24
12-07-2005, 09:37 PM
The only problem with that logic is that the moves made so far don't guarantee winning in 2006 any more than sticking it out w/ Frank in the fold guarantees losing.

Thome passed his physical but there's no telling when back problems will recurr. As someone with a bad back, I can tell you that you can hurt it all over again just walking to the john to take a piss. There's no rhyme or reason when it comes to lower backs.

Right, it's a question of the level of risk and confidence. There's a ton of things Thome can do to keep his back in good shape, and he's had one major season impacted by it. Thomas has already had 3 with the same ankle, and 2 the same bone in the ankle. And I haven't yet heard of any good ways to try and prevent or minimize the chances of re-occurence. Nothing's guaranteed, but Thomas chances of getting reinjured appear to be significantly greater than Thomes.

bbadger2002
12-07-2005, 09:55 PM
As a 25 year old lifelong White Sox fan, I'd just like to send my deepest thanks out to Frank. Has Frank been a spokesperson for the team from the beginning?...no. Has he been the greatest fielding first baseban in the last 20 years?...no.

All Frank Thomas has been is a good football player from Auburn who some thought might be able to play baseball.....He was the guy who umpires would look to for ball/strike calls.....He was the guy who wouldn't take charge in the clubhouse, but would go about his business with dignity regardless.....He was the guy who put up some of the BEST NUMBERS IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME.....without the use of steroids (in the midst of the steroid era).

He's not the most dynamic personality on Earth, and has never demanded or wanted the spotlight, but he is the best player in the history of one of Major League Baseball's original franchises.

I first saw Frank play when I was a young teenager, and have seen him hit homeruns, doubles, singles, and watched him almost artfully take countless walks. The memory of Gene Honda annoucing..." Now batting for the White Sox, first baseman, number 35 FRAAAANK THOMAS, will stay with me forever.

Where other modern day fans will think back on players like Sosa, or McGwire, or Canseco, or Giambi, I will feel so proud 40 years from now when I'm an old grey Sox fan like my father and grandfather and his father before him were...I will be proud to talk about Frank Thomas and his incredible run with the Chicago White Sox.

Thanks Frank! History will remember you fondly for so many reasons.

row18
12-07-2005, 09:56 PM
Frank you're the BEST! I grew up watching you, collected your cards and even tried your batting stance. Seeing you leave is the total opposite to watching the Sox win the World Series, you'll be missed.

Now go out there and get your 600 HRs!

IlliniSox4Life
12-07-2005, 10:02 PM
If I were Frank Thomas, and KW came to me and said "hey, if no one else in baseball wants you, we'll see if we can't float you the minimum salary in May." I would be more pissed than not to be spoken to at all. Frank believes he is capable of multiple years of 500+ AB's judging by his actions. Why would you even bother to say such a thing to a guy. That'd be like if our offer to Konerko was "hey, if no one else wants you, we'll sign you for what you made last year. Well maybe a bit less, since you weren't that good early this year."

Yes, maybe KW could have handled things better, if everything the media is saying is 100% accurate. But really, Frank is not a dumb guy. I don't think he needed anyone to tell him what was going down or to be given some ridiculously low contract offer contingent on his being totally unsignable by any other team.


There's a difference between Kenny sayin "nobody else in baseball wants you so were going to give you the minimum and try to reap a huge reward"

versus Kenny saying

"Hey Frank, listen, I know how much you want to end your career here, but you have to understand this from the organizations viewpoint. We think your ankle is too much of a risk to go into next year with you as our only plan for a DH. Unfortunately that also makes it hard to keep you around because we only have so much money and so many roster slots. However, we appreciate everything you've done for the organization, and if we do end up parting ways this off season, we'd like to do it in a way that best suits you. So basically, the best I have to offer is a very low salary and probably only one to two games a week playing time guaranteed. If you would like to act as a part time DH and part time hitting coach, we could offer you some more money as well. Now, if you don't like the offer, I completely understand. You definately have a shot at getting a better deal somewhere else. We can do this however you want. If you want to tell the media that you wanted more playing time so you turned down our offer, we can tell them that. If you want to tell them we didn't offer you any contract but just that we talked about the different direction we're going in, that's fine. If you want to take the deal and finish off your career with the White Sox, that's fine. If you would prefer just to decline our offer and retire, that's fine as well. If you do retire, we have a coaching spot open for you whenever you would like. We just want to let you know that we greatly appreciate everything you've done for us and we don't want you leaving this organization with any ill feelings, if we do part ways. Let us know when you're ready to make your decision"


however, apparently, this is more along the lines of what was said:
"Oh, Frank, hey. Funny running into you on this elevator. Yeah, anyway, well, uh, so we got this guy named Jim Thome...Oh, you heard? Yeah, I was meaning to call you, but I've just been so busy".

TornLabrum
12-07-2005, 11:16 PM
however, apparently, this is more along the lines of what was said:
"Oh, Frank, hey. Funny running into you on this elevator. Yeah, anyway, well, uh, so we got this guy named Jim Thome...Oh, you heard? Yeah, I was meaning to call you, but I've just been so busy".

Except, FWIW, I remember in an interview right after the Thome signing, somebody asked KW what the Thomas situation was. I seem to remember him saying that he had tried to call him but was unable to reach him.

HawkISox
12-07-2005, 11:39 PM
I can.

Thome had better not miss many games due to injury (the back is my concern, not the elbow) while the big man has a comeback year. Having Frank leave like this is just making me sick, and you cannot remotely compare it to Magglio. Magglio gambled, got injured, and left to chase the money. Magglio had not put up nearly Frank-like numbers for the years that Frank did. Did the Sox even see if Frank would be willing to re-sign for a low base with a lot of incentive clauses? Apparently not. Did they ask him to submit to a physical to see how he's doing? Apparently not, but they took on Thome coming off a year missed to injury based on a physical. With the $3.5 million buyout of Frank and what the Sox are picking up of Thome's contract, they are paying more than Frank's option, and that's just for next year. They have Thome for a couple more regardless of his physical status, while Frank would have been only for next year.

Can you tell I'm having a hard time accepting this?:(:

I'm with you on this one. Frank is going to be in the AL, and it could be the Twins. If he hits 40 plus, and Thome misses time......could get ugly...WS will seem a distant memory in 7 months.

Nailing the Thome trade got me blackballed for several weeks. We'll see who is right. I'm thinking there will be more #35 A's or Twins Jerseys than Kenny would like to see if Frank comes to town on one of those teams.

I guess I dont have the faith in Williams everyone else does. I think Guillen was the difference.

soxinem1
12-07-2005, 11:48 PM
As much as I love watching Frank play with the Sox, I don't think it is a case of either side being at fault, it's more of each having to do what they have to do.

In Frank's favor, tenure, past production, and just the threat of him in the lineup have always made the Sox a better team.

In the Sox favor, not knowing if they could count on him after paying $14 million the last two years for 340 AB's, then having Thome come available the way he did, they had to cover themselves.

I think KW got Thome to show Konerko two things. One, he would have protection if he came back. Two, they were prepared to go on without him.

Hearing about Big Frank walking around the winter meetings and running to catch elevators may lead to some second guessing next June, but nobody knows what to expect from him in the mean time.

So let's just be thankful for what he gave us since 1990 and hope he returns someday with a HOF plaque.

TomBradley72
12-08-2005, 01:23 AM
As a 25 year old lifelong White Sox fan, I'd just like to send my deepest thanks out to Frank. Has Frank been a spokesperson for the team from the beginning?...no. Has he been the greatest fielding first baseban in the last 20 years?...no.

All Frank Thomas has been is a good football player from Auburn who some thought might be able to play baseball.....He was the guy who umpires would look to for ball/strike calls.....He was the guy who wouldn't take charge in the clubhouse, but would go about his business with dignity regardless.....He was the guy who put up some of the BEST NUMBERS IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME.....without the use of steroids (in the midst of the steroid era).

He's not the most dynamic personality on Earth, and has never demanded or wanted the spotlight, but he is the best player in the history of one of Major League Baseball's original franchises.

I first saw Frank play when I was a young teenager, and have seen him hit homeruns, doubles, singles, and watched him almost artfully take countless walks. The memory of Gene Honda annoucing..." Now batting for the White Sox, first baseman, number 35 FRAAAANK THOMAS, will stay with me forever.

Where other modern day fans will think back on players like Sosa, or McGwire, or Canseco, or Giambi, I will feel so proud 40 years from now when I'm an old grey Sox fan like my father and grandfather and his father before him were...I will be proud to talk about Frank Thomas and his incredible run with the Chicago White Sox.

Thanks Frank! History will remember you fondly for so many reasons.

Well said. :cheers:

RedHeadPaleHoser
12-08-2005, 08:08 AM
Here's to Frank - he will be missed. We can all say we saw one of the purest hitters in baseball...and he played in Chicago on a World Champion team. Not too many people get to utter those words.

:gulp:

bigdommer
12-08-2005, 08:47 AM
He got his ring, he's thrilled. I really don't see him that upset from this article. Things ended much worse with Magglio, Frank was still pretty classy about this. You always expect something like this after a player is not invited back to a team he has been on his whole career.

I agree. I sense that Frank's disappointment stems from his inability to prove to the franchise that he can stay healthy. If Frank was healthy and put together a mediocre, Carl Everett type season, the Sox would have welcomed him back no doubt to be their full time DH. It's sad, but I think his bad foot and his bad health "forced him to move on."

IlliniSox4Life
12-08-2005, 10:04 AM
Except, FWIW, I remember in an interview right after the Thome signing, somebody asked KW what the Thomas situation was. I seem to remember him saying that he had tried to call him but was unable to reach him.

It's not like Frank is hiding somewhere in the rainforest in South America. If Kenny couldn't reach him, he didn't try hard enough.

kittle42
12-08-2005, 10:27 AM
KW's take:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox08.html

Kilroy
12-08-2005, 12:18 PM
KW's take:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox08.html (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox08.html)


So, according to KW, having Thomas throw out the first pitch and handing him the WS trophy were ways of acknowledging Thomas because he knew he wasn't going to be around next season.

I know that Frank didn't think that. All his comments were of a nature of working something out so that he could be back with the White Sox next year. Seems to me he said, "this is home for me."

Regardless of any such gestures that KW claims he made, he should have told Frank what his intentions were. Especially since we now know that he told Konerko what he was going to do as far as Thome was concerned before the series ended and that he considered the ceremonial first pitch in the ALDS as part of Frank's 'send off'.

Sorry KW. You're a good GM, and I'm pleased with most things you've done, even the Thome deal. But you can't spin the lack of respect you showed to Frank Thomas. You just can't.

kevin57
12-08-2005, 12:47 PM
I agree that throwing out a first pitch, etc. are "nice," but real respect would have been a sit-down, face-to-face with Frank, telling him the moves that are being made and the goals being pursued and that he wouldn't fit into things as they stand.

Again, KW may have done that. I know what the media are reporting, but I always take the media with a big grain of salt.

Frankly Missing
12-08-2005, 02:53 PM
So, according to KW, having Thomas throw out the first pitch and handing him the WS trophy were ways of acknowledging Thomas because he knew he wasn't going to be around next season.


Well, pin a rose on KWs' nose for letting Frank throw out a first pitch.

So handing him the trophy was a signal to Frank he wasn't coming back? I don't remember Frank or the 1.75 million fans at the parade getting that impression.

Actually telling Frank, hmmmm, guess no one thought of that.

Maybe he should have handed Frank a watch instead of the trophy.

Beauty35thStreet
12-08-2005, 05:09 PM
Did Kenny tell Konerko this? What an organization! When did this happen?

Regardless of any such gestures that KW claims he made, he should have told Frank what his intentions were. Especially since we now know that he told Konerko what he was going to do as far as Thome was concerned before the series ended and that he considered the ceremonial first pitch in the ALDS as part of Frank's 'send off'.

Sorry KW. You're a good GM, and I'm pleased with most things you've done, even the Thome deal. But you can't spin the lack of respect you showed to Frank Thomas. You just can't.

I see where Kenny is coming from with not signing him back, but that's pretty damn cold to talk about this stuff when the season is still going on, especially when a WS series is intact. Why would he be talking about this with Konerko before its over?

Beauty35thStreet
12-08-2005, 05:14 PM
I thought KW did a good job in 2004-05. I understand KW's logic now, but I'm with you HawkISox on these particular Thome-Rowand-Anderson-PK-Thomas and now even Marte situations.

I'm with you on this one. Frank is going to be in the AL, and it could be the Twins. If he hits 40 plus, and Thome misses time......could get ugly...WS will seem a distant memory in 7 months.

Nailing the Thome trade got me blackballed for several weeks. We'll see who is right. I'm thinking there will be more #35 A's or Twins Jerseys than Kenny would like to see if Frank comes to town on one of those teams.

I guess I dont have the faith in Williams everyone else does. I think Guillen was the difference.

cubkilla#1soxfan
12-09-2005, 04:51 AM
thomas might not be healthy until may.

If he's still out there and the whitesox lose thome or konerko to injury, then he could be re-signed.

Frank not in a White Sox Uniform doensn't seem right.

To the best slugger in the history of the White Sox.

Thank you for making feel proud to be a sox fan, even during the times when the White Sox weren't so great in the mid 90's, i could always say we had the best hitter in baseball.

Nellie_Fox
12-09-2005, 02:59 PM
If he's still out there...He won't be.

yessssssss
12-09-2005, 03:30 PM
I don't think I'll ever forget my first Sox game my parents took me to and having my mom tell me not to get up to get food because Frank was going to hit a homerun. Sure enough, I got up to get food and that big bastard hit a bomb.

Good post. I'm gonna miss the big guy too. When I was younger, I collected a lot of Big Frank baseball cards, and the whole thing about playing steroid free really increased my respect for him. I really wish he could have finished his career in a Sox uni, and I'm not so sure they didn't owe that to him...but baseball is big business.

Good luck to you Frank, whatever the future may hold.

alohafri
12-10-2005, 10:16 AM
Dammit, I hate to see things with Frank end like this. After the amazing feel-good season that was '05, it sucks to see Hurt walk away feeling burned by management. I want him to be around the Sox for a long time after his career - not another ex-player who has a grudge with management. Best of luck, big guy. :(:


I'd love to see Frank Thomas stick with the Sox as much as the next guy, but there are nor guarantees that he can go. With Paulie and Thome, where do we put him? He isn't going to get his 500 home runs batting once or twice a week. If he feels that he has been burned by management, that is his problem. It wasn't like he was released in Cleveland!

jerry myers
12-10-2005, 10:35 AM
Frank its very odd, and got to be pretty strange to you. but you will always be a white sox no matter who you play for, and always cheered and loved when you come to bat even against us. thank you! give it all to god. and enjoy that ring, its most deserved.

Steelrod
12-10-2005, 10:37 AM
So, according to KW, having Thomas throw out the first pitch and handing him the WS trophy were ways of acknowledging Thomas because he knew he wasn't going to be around next season.

I know that Frank didn't think that. All his comments were of a nature of working something out so that he could be back with the White Sox next year. Seems to me he said, "this is home for me."

Regardless of any such gestures that KW claims he made, he should have told Frank what his intentions were. Especially since we now know that he told Konerko what he was going to do as far as Thome was concerned before the series ended and that he considered the ceremonial first pitch in the ALDS as part of Frank's 'send off'.

Sorry KW. You're a good GM, and I'm pleased with most things you've done, even the Thome deal. But you can't spin the lack of respect you showed to Frank Thomas. You just can't.
Just curious, how would you have done it. It's Kennys job to win. I love Frank as much as you. Maybe had Frank not immeditely invoked his option, forcing the Sox to pay him off within 5 days or resign, something could have been worked out. Athletes DO GET OLD! Would you rather pay Frank 3-4 million more and find out later that he can or cannot play? Of course, you then wouldn't have that money to fill another hole. If you offer him the minimum or a minor league contract, you would REALLY INSULT HIM!
No win, any way you look at it!

Kilroy
12-12-2005, 03:49 PM
Just curious, how would you have done it.

How would I have done it? Simple. I would have gotten hold of Frank personally and said to him that we're going to move in a different direction. That's all. No need to elaborate, but Thomas deserved to hear it from the Sox personally, not indirectly because of signings and trades that made it clear he wouldn't be needed.

Chisox003
12-12-2005, 04:19 PM
Frank Thomas (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/4527/). After the White Sox bid him a not-so-fond farewell, you know he's out to show them he's still got the power. Doing so on an A.L. Central team would be all the more satisfying. Anyone notice the Twins need a DH?
:rolleyes: