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Gremlin3
12-05-2005, 06:15 PM
What is the point of the WBC if you dont actually get to see players from other countries? The fact that players dont even have to be born in the country they are playing for is ridiculous. I understand being proud of your heritage, but there should be some sort of restriction. The Italian team (should be called the Americans of Italian descent team) is probably one of the better examples. I just saw this on rotoworld.com

Italian Team
Mike Piazza - Born in PA
David Dellucci - Born in Louisianna
Frank Catalanotto - Born in New York
Mark DeRosa - Born in New Jersey
Matt Mantei - Born in Florida
Doug Mirabelli - Born in Arizona

gf2020
12-05-2005, 06:29 PM
From an article on MLB: http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article_perspectives.jsp?ymd=20051205&content_id=1275932&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp

Mike Piazza will play for Italy. Players Association chief operating officer Gene Orza said that Piazza, who could have obviously played for the U.S., asked what would be better for baseball -- playing for the Americans or for Italy. When he was informed that Italy would be the better choice in that regard, he signed on.
That is so lame and just reinforces the perception that this is all one big marketing scam. Letting mlb determine your loyalty is absurd.

SoxEd
12-05-2005, 06:36 PM
What are the qualification rules for playing for 'your' country?

E.g. I know that if you have a grandparent from, say, Wales, then under FIFA rules you can play soccer for Wales.
E.g. a guy from near me in Staffordshire plays soccer for Trinidad and Tobago - because his mom was born there.
You can, however, 'change countries' to the country of your birth (or another grandparent's nation) if you have only played in non-competitive ('Friendly') matches.
Once you have played in a competitive match e.g. a World Cup qualifier, then your country is permanently fixed.

antitwins13
12-05-2005, 09:39 PM
Hey maybe I can try out for the British team. My ancestors only moved from there 125 years ago.

veeter
12-05-2005, 09:45 PM
I can't stand this kind of stuff. Just like the olympics. Pros playing on teams that are for amateurs. Now, Americans playing for other countries. When is opening day?

Daver
12-05-2005, 09:52 PM
The point is simple, it makes money for MLB, not the teams, but the league itself.

Johnny Mostil
12-05-2005, 10:19 PM
I'm guessing that I'm in the minority, but I don't have a problem with this. If Piazza (and Dellucci and Catalanotto and DeRosa and Mantei and Mirabelli) are eligible for Italian citizenship (I'm guessing they are), and if they want to play for Italy, and, most importantly (though perhaps far-fetched), if this might even boost the game in Italy, well, it's OK with me. Piazza sounds like he wants to play for Italy if it will help the game overall and maybe even the game in Italy. Yeah, marketing is obviously involved, but we can't always expect a product, even one as fine as baseball, to sell itself . . .

(For the record, I'm not of Italian descent and not otherwise eligible for Italian citizenship, and I don't otherwise care how Team Italia does in the tournament.)

mac9001
12-05-2005, 10:30 PM
What are the qualification rules for playing for 'your' country?

E.g. I know that if you have a grandparent from, say, Wales, then under FIFA rules you can play soccer for Wales.
E.g. a guy from near me in Staffordshire plays soccer for Trinidad and Tobago - because his mom was born there.
You can, however, 'change countries' to the country of your birth (or another grandparent's nation) if you have only played in non-competitive ('Friendly') matches.
Once you have played in a competitive match e.g. a World Cup qualifier, then your country is permanently fixed.

Two generations back, so yes if your grandparent was let's say Italian you could play for Italy.

PKalltheway
12-05-2005, 11:31 PM
I'm guessing that I'm in the minority, but I don't have a problem with this. If Piazza (and Dellucci and Catalanotto and DeRosa and Mantei and Mirabelli) are eligible for Italian citizenship (I'm guessing they are), and if they want to play for Italy, and, most importantly (though perhaps far-fetched), if this might even boost the game in Italy, well, it's OK with me. Piazza sounds like he wants to play for Italy if it will help the game overall and maybe even the game in Italy. Yeah, marketing is obviously involved, but we can't always expect a product, even one as fine as baseball, to sell itself . . .

(For the record, I'm not of Italian descent and not otherwise eligible for Italian citizenship, and I don't otherwise care how Team Italia does in the tournament.)

I agree with you on that. By the way, does anybody know what channels these games will be coming on? They should switch it up and have the games on NBC, CBS, or ABC instead of ESPN and FOX. Bob Costas would be the perfect guy for an event of this nature since he has experience calling baseball and experience calling the olympics.
:costas

Lip Man 1
12-06-2005, 12:02 AM
Actually they should show all the games on the Comedy Central Channel. This 'tournament' is a friggin' joke just like the all popularity contest, errr...I mean the All Star Farce.

Lip

D. TODD
12-06-2005, 12:32 AM
I seem to remember a N.B.A. guy late in his career thinking about playing for the Mexican Olympic team trying to qualify for the Olympics. His grandfather was from Mexico or something. The player did not do it, and my memory of it is vague at best so it might not of even happened. :tongue: Anyway Mark Aguirre is the name that pops to mind, it may have been Cedric Ceballos, but oh well that's the strange and vague recollection I had while reading this thread.:D:

HotelWhiteSox
12-06-2005, 12:48 AM
I'm guessing that I'm in the minority, but I don't have a problem with this. If Piazza (and Dellucci and Catalanotto and DeRosa and Mantei and Mirabelli) are eligible for Italian citizenship (I'm guessing they are), and if they want to play for Italy, and, most importantly (though perhaps far-fetched), if this might even boost the game in Italy, well, it's OK with me. Piazza sounds like he wants to play for Italy if it will help the game overall and maybe even the game in Italy. Yeah, marketing is obviously involved, but we can't always expect a product, even one as fine as baseball, to sell itself . . .

(For the record, I'm not of Italian descent and not otherwise eligible for Italian citizenship, and I don't otherwise care how Team Italia does in the tournament.)

I think there should be some stricter requirement, like dual citizenship or residence in the offseason (if that). It probably is this as already pointed out, but it just seems like some excuse for money or a waste of time. They will use the angle of trying to prove which country is the best, which will be lame when the eligibility is so loose and you have situations like having a majority of the Cuban team not being able to play for their native country.

TheVulture
12-06-2005, 01:00 AM
The teams from China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Italy, Cuba, Panama, Netherlands, South Africa and Australia will all have tons of guys that haven't played in MLB. Even Mexico and Venezuela would quite a few I'd imagine. I'm most interested in seeing how the Asian teams do. It's too bad only one will advance to play the other teams, though.

MUsoxfan
12-06-2005, 01:00 AM
From an article on MLB: http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article_perspectives.jsp?ymd=20051205&content_id=1275932&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp


That is so lame and just reinforces the perception that this is all one big marketing scam. Letting mlb determine your loyalty is absurd.


I seriously doubt half those guys have even been to Italy

HotelWhiteSox
12-06-2005, 01:11 AM
Another reason to be mad at this event:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/wbc/rosters.jsp?content=mlbclub

When browsing the rosters, the White Sox abbreviation is 'CWS' while the other team is town has 'CHI'. I don't mind being 'CWS', but then their abbreviation should be 'CHC'. Yeah, I should go to bed, but something I noticed. *Simpsons fist shake* 'Shake harder son!'

getonbckthr
12-06-2005, 02:41 AM
As far as Piazza for Italy goes, if he was healthy Erik Karros was gonna play for Greece in the Olympics. For all the people that don't like the WBC, look at this way competitive baseball starting in March and going through October. An extra month of baseball I love it. Also I think this to somewhat replace what the Olympics feel isn't needed. The fricken Olympics eliminated baseball and softball from their list of events.

NardiWasHere
12-06-2005, 02:49 AM
As far as Piazza for Italy goes, if he was healthy Erik Karros was gonna play for Greece in the Olympics. For all the people that don't like the WBC, look at this way competitive baseball starting in March and going through October. An extra month of baseball I love it. Also I think this to somewhat replace what the Olympics feel isn't needed. The fricken Olympics eliminated baseball and softball from their list of events.

Actually the entire Greek Olympic Baseball team was pretty much made up of American citizens of Greek descent... There was an article about this a few years back in ESPN the mag... Being a proud Greek 20 year old baseball fan, I photocopied the article and put it up on my wall back home...

I'm gonna love watching this tourney. What's not to like? More competitive baseball, we'll get a chance to see some interesting foreign players, and players can represent their own people and roots...

Frankly Missing
12-06-2005, 09:30 AM
I just don't understand the patriotic angle to this WBC.

With a few exemptions, most of the countries premier players are coming from MLB.

Lets say the Domincans kick everyones butt.

What does that prove?

Does it make the Dominican Republic the champion country of the baseball world?

Almost the entire DR team consists of players brought to the US at a young age, and developed through our minor league system using US dollars and coaching resources.

D. TODD
12-06-2005, 09:45 AM
I seem to remember a N.B.A. guy late in his career thinking about playing for the Mexican Olympic team trying to qualify for the Olympics. His grandfather was from Mexico or something. The player did not do it, and my memory of it is vague at best so it might not of even happened. :tongue: Anyway Mark Aguirre is the name that pops to mind, it may have been Cedric Ceballos, but oh well that's the strange and vague recollection I had while reading this thread.:D: I looked it up, it was Mark Aguirre, but it was his dad that was born in Mexico not his grandfather.

nccwsfan
12-06-2005, 11:49 AM
Actually they should show all the games on the Comedy Central Channel. This 'tournament' is a friggin' joke just like the all popularity contest, errr...I mean the All Star Farce.

Lip

Couldn't agree more Lip. This is nothing more than a money making ploy by MLB and I don't see how this is going to succeed. The Caribbean Series, although limited to four countries, is a lot more compelling than this is going to be...just a waste of time.

skottyj242
12-06-2005, 12:08 PM
Wasn't Chelios trying our for the bobsled team from Greece for next years Olympics? He was born in Chicago.

TDog
12-06-2005, 12:13 PM
I don't have a big problem with the tournament, although I think the eligibility requirements are lax. It's about baseball positioning itself as a great sport with mass appeal. I don't think baseball fans should be so quick to dismiss it. I don't know that baseball belongs in the Olympics, but I don't believe team sports such as basketball and hockey belong in the Olympics.

Baseball doesn't have the worldwide following of soccer. North America, Latin America and Asia are the only areas where baseball is big. But there's nothing wrong with promoting the greatest game there is. Baseball people don't do enough of that. When Micheal Jordan left the Bulls to play baseball, I thought people in the sport should have (figuratively) embraced him as the world's greatest basketball player giving it up for a better sport.

That being said, I'm not happy about Sox pitchers participating, but I don't even want to see them pitch in the MLB All-Star Game.

longshot7
12-06-2005, 12:36 PM
Couldn't agree more Lip. This is nothing more than a money making ploy by MLB and I don't see how this is going to succeed. The Caribbean Series, although limited to four countries, is a lot more compelling than this is going to be...just a waste of time.

I disagree. Sure there's going to be a few bugs the first time around, but I think it has the potential to grow into a true baseball World Cup. I'm really excited about seeing Japan and Cuba.

Johnny Mostil
12-06-2005, 12:44 PM
Another reason to be mad at this event:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/wbc/rosters.jsp?content=mlbclub

When browsing the rosters, the White Sox abbreviation is 'CWS' while the other team is town has 'CHI'. I don't mind being 'CWS', but then their abbreviation should be 'CHC'. Yeah, I should go to bed, but something I noticed. *Simpsons fist shake* 'Shake harder son!'

Eh, CWS stands for Chicago's World Series team, no?

Johnny Mostil
12-06-2005, 12:45 PM
I disagree. Sure there's going to be a few bugs the first time around, but I think it has the potential to grow into a true baseball World Cup. I'm really excited about seeing Japan and Cuba.

With apologies for my ignorance . . . may I ask how often this will be held? Will it be annual? Quadrennial? Or wait-and-see for the next one?

Lip Man 1
12-06-2005, 02:43 PM
Longshot:

If you want to make it meaningful, which MLB does NOT wish to do, then play the game the way baseball is supposed to be played, no exceptions, no rule changes (unlike now), play it during the middle of the season when players are actually in shape and most important of all, get the BEST players to play for the countries they were BORN in. Piazza does NOT play for Italy for example. If the rest of the world wants to play with the U.S., Canada and the Latin Countries let them develop their own damn teams. No gifts.

This is pure garbage, a total complete farce. I for one will not watch one inning, one at bat, one pitch.

I just hope to hell no one on the Sox get hurt and that this doesn't cause the Sox to piss something away in September because the three players are very worn out. Ludicrous trying to play 'meaningful' baseball games on March 3rd.

Regarding the rest of the world playing the sport, what North America, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Australia and Latin America isn't enough for you? I guess you want to make sure those Germans take up the sport....how about the Irish, no wait the Angolans!

The U.S. by and large could care less about soccer...the rest of the world survives and the game is played in areas that care....same is true for baseball. It doesn't need to be promoted at the expense of hurting players and more to the point hurting teams for games that actually MEAN something.

Lip

Flight #24
12-06-2005, 03:05 PM
Longshot:

If you want to make it meaningful, which MLB does NOT wish to do, then play the game the way baseball is supposed to be played, no exceptions, no rule changes (unlike now), play it during the middle of the season when players are actually in shape and most important of all, get the BEST players to play for the countries they were BORN in. Piazza does NOT play for Italy for example. If the rest of the world wants to play with the U.S., Canada and the Latin Countries let them develop their own damn teams. No gifts.

This is pure garbage, a total complete farce. I for one will not watch one inning, one at bat, one pitch.


- I believe the eligibility requirements are the same as those used in the Olympics, no? So it's not just MLB saying "Hmmm.....your name ends in I and the Italians need someone extra". Maybe I'm wrong on that. Also, I believe that you're going to see team populated significantly with locals and having some US players added in. So the Italian team might have Delucci, Piazza, etc - but would also have a whole bunch of locals (who suck). Again - as in the Olympics.

- As for it being in-season, you have many of the same issues. Yes, players are more in shape, but you still have workload issues, plus it either lops off games from the schedule or extends the postseason because you insert a 2-week (or however long) hiatus.

- Yeah, it's a money maker for MLB because it should increase popularity internationally. It probably won't do much domestically, but that's not the point: it will almost certainly be fairly popular among other countries and increase interest in baseball there. Personally, I'm all for something that increases league revenues without hitting my pocket.

nccwsfan
12-06-2005, 09:07 PM
With apologies for my ignorance . . . may I ask how often this will be held? Will it be annual? Quadrennial? Or wait-and-see for the next one?

From what I read, the next tournament will be held in 2009.
Link (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/travel_baseball.html)

longshot, we'll see how this all plays out in March, but this is way too contrived to be meaningful for the long term. If they want to have a true international competition they should shift their focus towards the Olympics. The primary mission of the World Baseball Classic is to promote the sport after all.

Lip Man 1
12-06-2005, 10:47 PM
NCCW:

That's right....gotta have the Hungarians go baseball mad! And let's not leave out the Gilbert Islanders. Man I hear they simply did the long ball!!!!!

The WBC is nothing but a pile of dung.

Lip

Optipessimism
12-06-2005, 11:04 PM
From an article on MLB: http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article_perspectives.jsp?ymd=20051205&content_id=1275932&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp


That is so lame and just reinforces the perception that this is all one big marketing scam. Letting mlb determine your loyalty is absurd.

Perception??

This will be nothing short of a disaster IMO. Besides the possibilities of players hurting themselves, how can some of these other countries have any sort of interest in their own teams when none of the big names actually live there. That would be like putting together a soccer team full of a bunch of Chinese people who once spent a weekend of sightseeing in New York and calling it Team USA. Would you give a damn? I wouldn't. The only countries that would even have any interest whatsoever are going to be the latin countries and Japan. Besides that, it's all one big joke.

Optipessimism
12-06-2005, 11:18 PM
I just don't understand the patriotic angle to this WBC.

With a few exemptions, most of the countries premier players are coming from MLB.

Lets say the Domincans kick everyones butt.

What does that prove?

Does it make the Dominican Republic the champion country of the baseball world?

Almost the entire DR team consists of players brought to the US at a young age, and developed through our minor league system using US dollars and coaching resources.

They aren't playing for anything except the opportunity to go "Yay! Wow! Look at me! Yay!!!" and I don't think that helps anybody.

I've said since this whole thing started that a WBC would be useful IF Major League players had nothing to do with it. If the US team and even some others were comprised of prospects with the tournament basically used as an AFL it would help the young players with making adjustments against unknown competition as well as playing under pressure. And if the opposing teams were comprised of mainly unsigned talent (of any age really) it would allow some of these kids to impress Major League scouts and help them get contracts.

As it is now though, I see it as absolutely pointless.

Flight #24
12-06-2005, 11:35 PM
NCCW:

That's right....gotta have the Hungarians go baseball mad! And let's not leave out the Gilbert Islanders. Man I hear they simply did the long ball!!!!!

The WBC is nothing but a pile of dung.

Lip

Hungarian baseball fever = increased $$$ = increased $$$ to FAs without ticket price increases. Which can do things like enable teams to, say - afford to hold onto higher priced players rather than dumping the salaries.

Optipessimism
12-06-2005, 11:51 PM
Hungarian baseball fever = increased $$$ = increased $$$ to FAs without ticket price increases. Which can do things like enable teams to, say - afford to hold onto higher priced players rather than dumping the salaries.

Pointless injuries to superstar players = lower win totals for the team they play for = sad fans = less money for the team = disappointing season for all involved and a motion to banish this garbage altogether.

MasQbellesa
12-08-2005, 01:58 AM
The point is simple, it makes money for MLB, not the teams, but the league itself.

Yes...and puts the clubhouses in "scary mode" thinking their gazillion doller players are going to get hurt!!

lostletters
12-08-2005, 02:36 AM
The point of the world baseball classic is to further popularize the sport internationally. This is not really for the US market, but the market outside of the US. Some think this is a moneymaking gimic, but the reality it is to give baseball its own world cup to help popularize the sport outside of the US. Basically the world cup is less about the US, and more about Mexico and China.

You may not understand it, but it is a stroke of brilliance and can have the effect of increasing the quality of the game. In the long term.

StockdaleForVeep
12-08-2005, 03:19 AM
From an article on MLB: http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article_perspectives.jsp?ymd=20051205&content_id=1275932&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp


That is so lame and just reinforces the perception that this is all one big marketing scam. Letting mlb determine your loyalty is absurd.

In world cup soccer, you play for what nationality you are, not where u were born or live.

I recall last time some guy from an Italian club team scored a winning goal over the italian world cup team. The owner of the club team later fired\cut that player from his team

StockdaleForVeep
12-08-2005, 03:20 AM
They aren't playing for anything except the opportunity to go "Yay! Wow! Look at me! Yay!!!" and I don't think that helps anybody.

I've said since this whole thing started that a WBC would be useful IF Major League players had nothing to do with it. If the US team and even some others were comprised of prospects with the tournament basically used as an AFL it would help the young players with making adjustments against unknown competition as well as playing under pressure. And if the opposing teams were comprised of mainly unsigned talent (of any age really) it would allow some of these kids to impress Major League scouts and help them get contracts.

As it is now though, I see it as absolutely pointless.

Our prospects arent our best. Some nations dont have prospects or minor leagues and they play "professional"

Like the olympics, its supposed to be a representation of a nations' best, not of the nations amateurs

TDog
12-08-2005, 03:40 AM
In world cup soccer, you play for what nationality you are, not where u were born or live.

I recall last time some guy from an Italian club team scored a winning goal over the italian world cup team. The owner of the club team later firedcut that player from his team

World Cup football stars can be quite mercenary when it comes to their nationalities.

bobowhite
12-08-2005, 09:22 AM
In world cup soccer, you play for what nationality you are, not where u were born or live.

I think there's considerably more fudging of that than you believe. I also know that in Rugby World Cup there is even considerably more fudging of nationality than I see from MLB. I sat down at a restaurant table during the RWC and three players sit down at the same table and are chatting about their old school (high school) and their mums, etc. It's clear these guys are fast friends and they all utilize identical accents (south island New Zealand, where I previously lived.) When I asked them which team they played for, they all laughed. They then identified three different nations (none NZ.) I asked how come they didn't play for NZ and they flat out said they weren't good enough but that their grandaparent's nations were happy to welcome them 'home'.

HChappasJr
12-08-2005, 10:00 AM
Here's what's gonna happen: Some big-name pitcher from this tournament (hopefully not Buehrle or Garcia) will come up with a sore arm around July and his team will blame it on the fact that he's pitched so many innings in this "World Cup." This will lead to "star" players not playing in the tournament in the coming years. All the "big-names" will stay home, much like what Olympic basketball has become recently. The rosters will be stocked with "B-list" players and the whole thing will be exposed for the sham that it is.

SouthSoxFan
12-08-2005, 10:47 AM
Sure there are some big name players volunteering to participate in this. But is there any reason to think they won't treat this just like another Spring Training game? You know, get a few innings of work in, get some cuts off live pitching, but take it easy. So the chances of injury should be no greater than what we are used to every March.

StepsInSC
12-08-2005, 02:27 PM
The point of the world baseball classic is to further popularize the sport internationally. This is not really for the US market, but the market outside of the US. Some think this is a moneymaking gimic, but the reality it is to give baseball its own world cup to help popularize the sport outside of the US. Basically the world cup is less about the US, and more about Mexico and China.

You may not understand it, but it is a stroke of brilliance and can have the effect of increasing the quality of the game. In the long term.

I think this is dead on, and yet everyone refuses to look at it this way. If this helps get the game that I love so much more popular in places where it's relatively new, then so be it. I can understand being cynical, but be cynical towards the US's involvement and not towards other countries' involvement - perhaps in those countries it is seen as a means of taking strides to further embrace the game by co-mingling it with a bit of a patriotic aspect...

It's the first year of this thing. Perhaps, one day, it can be a true playoff for a "World Champion". But now, seems like we should give it a shot, unless you're content to keep baseball to 'ourselves'. I think baseball could be immensely popular in countries where now it is only an afterthought.

Lip Man 1
12-08-2005, 04:07 PM
Steps:

I think it's more important for the WHITE SOX players to be under the guidance and training schedule that the WHITE SOX set for them. Not some two bit 'manager' who works as a TV commentator. I also think this franchise is vastly more important then trying to 'promote' the sport in places like Europe, Africa and maybe Greenland....which is about the only places on the globe now that don't play some form of baseball.

If Sox players are going to risk getting hurt and screwing up our season I damn sure want more in return then 'oh well, we're growing the game in Finland.'

Please...

Lip

SoxEd
12-09-2005, 02:06 PM
In world cup soccer, you play for what nationality you are, not where u were born or live.


Not true - please read my first post in this thread (the third post in the thread) for the limits to a player's 'Nationality' in soccer.

E.g. the English guy who lives near me who is playing for Trinidad & Tobago's 'Soca Warriors' in the 2006 World Cup.
He's easy to spot - he's the first white guy to play for Trini in about 60 years.
He qualifies because his mom was born in Port of Spain.

E.g. Michael Owen is Welsh but plays for England, Ryan Giggs is English but plays for Wales.

StepsInSC
12-09-2005, 02:26 PM
Steps:

I think it's more important for the WHITE SOX players to be under the guidance and training schedule that the WHITE SOX set for them. Not some two bit 'manager' who works as a TV commentator. I also think this franchise is vastly more important then trying to 'promote' the sport in places like Europe, Africa and maybe Greenland....which is about the only places on the globe now that don't play some form of baseball.

If Sox players are going to risk getting hurt and screwing up our season I damn sure want more in return then 'oh well, we're growing the game in Finland.'

Please...

Lip

I understand this. It's just a difference in opinion on the validity of a purpose. You've deemed it worthless, others havn't. But some of those others are the players themselves.

Injury risks, yeah. They're there, just as with anything else in the world. But it seems that the players are buying into it. Are the players who are voluntarily participating just more naive or stupid than those who arn't? I don't know. I'd like to think that such a level of paternalism isn't required that they can't choose for themselves.

bobowhite
12-09-2005, 02:56 PM
I do see a difference between position players and pitchers involved in the WBC. Is Iguchi any more likely to injure himself playing second base in Tokyo or Tuscon? As for his position in the batting order, since his old manager, Sadaharu Oh, is Japan's head coach, I believe he'll be batting somewhere between 5th and 7th. It is an All-Star team. And Iguchi will be seeing a similiar mix of pitches in Tokyo as he would be in ST, if anything, a little better. I just don't see a huge difference for Iguchi as a position player.


For the two pitchers there may be a difference.

HomeFish
12-10-2005, 08:49 PM
Steps:

I think it's more important for the WHITE SOX players to be under the guidance and training schedule that the WHITE SOX set for them. Not some two bit 'manager' who works as a TV commentator. I also think this franchise is vastly more important then trying to 'promote' the sport in places like Europe, Africa and maybe Greenland....which is about the only places on the globe now that don't play some form of baseball.

If Sox players are going to risk getting hurt and screwing up our season I damn sure want more in return then 'oh well, we're growing the game in Finland.'

Please...

Lip

Baseball is actually pretty big in Finland. But they call it Pesapallo, home plate is round, and a ball hit over the outfield fence is an out.

Anyway, international growth of the sport is good for all teams in MLB. I seem to remember the White Sox getting a foreign second-baseman who led them to the World Series, as just one example.

MUsoxfan
12-10-2005, 08:55 PM
Baseball is actually pretty big in Finland. But they call it Pesapallo, home plate is round, and a ball hit over the outfield fence is an out.

Anyway, international growth of the sport is good for all teams in MLB. I seem to remember the White Sox getting a foreign second-baseman who led them to the World Series, as just one example.

Welcome back, Fish:cool:

nccwsfan
12-10-2005, 09:25 PM
I think this is dead on, and yet everyone refuses to look at it this way. If this helps get the game that I love so much more popular in places where it's relatively new, then so be it. I can understand being cynical, but be cynical towards the US's involvement and not towards other countries' involvement - perhaps in those countries it is seen as a means of taking strides to further embrace the game by co-mingling it with a bit of a patriotic aspect...

It's the first year of this thing. Perhaps, one day, it can be a true playoff for a "World Champion". But now, seems like we should give it a shot, unless you're content to keep baseball to 'ourselves'. I think baseball could be immensely popular in countries where now it is only an afterthought.

There is a tournament where one can be the "World Champion". It's called the Olympic Games, and it's been successful at bringing out the best in teams/countries.

Baseball has been around for over 150 years, so it's not like this is a sport that people in Europe/Asia/Africa are looking at and saying "oohhh, so that's what baseball is!". That's not to say that they cannot gain a few fans here and there along the way, but to develop a contrived exhibition that will be played with half the intensity just isn't worth it. This is a money making venture for the MLB owners, nothing more.

Take a poll of the players playing in this exhibition and ask them this- if you could win one series as a professional, would it be the World Series or the World Baseball Classic. I'd love to see who answers WBC.

ChiWhiteSox1337
12-10-2005, 09:30 PM
This is a money making venture for the MLB owners, nothing more.
Yep. If you want any proof, just check out the topic in the Parking lot about WBC hats. MLB.com is charging $34.99 for each hat, with team USA having 3 different hat styles to be used over a total of 10 games.

nccwsfan
12-10-2005, 09:31 PM
I understand this. It's just a difference in opinion on the validity of a purpose. You've deemed it worthless, others havn't. But some of those others are the players themselves.

Injury risks, yeah. They're there, just as with anything else in the world. But it seems that the players are buying into it. Are the players who are voluntarily participating just more naive or stupid than those who arn't? I don't know. I'd like to think that such a level of paternalism isn't required that they can't choose for themselves.

It looks like the answers will become a little more clear in March. If the players show genuine intensity and play to the best of their ability then we might be able to call this a success. If players end up treating this like an exhibition then it will ultimately fail because if it's not important to them why should it be to the casual fan?

It's fun to read differing POV on this and we'll all have to see how it plays out.

HomeFish
12-10-2005, 09:34 PM
There is a tournament where one can be the "World Champion". It's called the Olympic Games, and it's been successful at bringing out the best in teams/countries.

Baseball is not an Olympic Sport. Moreover, when it was, it never brought out the best players, seeing as the summer Olympics occured during the MLB Season.

StepsInSC
12-10-2005, 09:48 PM
It looks like the answers will become a little more clear in March. If the players show genuine intensity and play to the best of their ability then we might be able to call this a success. If players end up treating this like an exhibition then it will ultimately fail because if it's not important to them why should it be to the casual fan?

It's fun to read differing POV on this and we'll all have to see how it plays out.

I agree it's largely up to the players. If it's played half-assed, then yes it will probably suck and it will probably fail. On the other hand, if they play all out...more injury risks are going to come, but it could make for better ball.

I'm not for risking entire seasons of MLB players for this thing, but up until this point, it's speculative. If someone eats it hard then I'll admit I was wrong - I'm not a WBC fanatic. I just think, among some other things, it has the potential to be entertaining. And I just want to give it a shot before dismissing it.

I'm also not convinced by any statement that it's just a money making venture, without something more to back it up. First off, it's not guaranteed to make money. Second of all, making money is a primary goal in about everything in this country, but it doesn't mean it's a sole purpose. Even the Olympics are a "money making venture."

I don't want to damn the thing yet, but that doesn't mean I want to label it a success.

The Racehorse
12-11-2005, 06:26 AM
Is Texas gonna field a team?

Lip Man 1
12-11-2005, 02:12 PM
Homefish:

And have you looked at some of the names on these rosters? Some of these guys don't derserve to be within ten feet of anyone on an 'All-Star' roster...yet they are. This is almost as bad as the All Star Popularity Contest where the best players don't make it but the ones the fans vote in do.

By no stretch of the imagination are these the 'best' players from their countries.... they are the ones who said 'yes'... big difference. Which implies that a number of games said basically 'no thanks.'

Lip

SoxEd
12-11-2005, 07:47 PM
There is a tournament where one can be the "World Champion". It's called the Olympic Games, and it's been successful at bringing out the best in teams/countries.


I largely agree with the rest of what you wrote, but the sentence I quoted above is wrong; if you win an Olympic Gold Medal you are the Olympic Champion, not the World Champion.

Some Olympic Sports have their own World Championships - Athletics has the Olympics and a World Championships.
Gymnastics also has both. So does Three-Day Eventing. I think Curling does too.
I'm trying to remember the situation for Beach Volleyball, but I find it hard to think clearly about that :D: :o:.

Soccer is played in the Olympics (in the same way that Baseball used to be - i.e. the World's top players aren't there), but they have a 'World Cup' too.
And a 'World Club Championship' (which takes place next week IIRC) to milk even more cash from its fans.

Other Olympic Sports have no official World Championship; e.g. Tennis, Badminton (bizarrely enough, the 'All-England Championships' are its unofficial WC), or Basketball.

As a non-American, I personally welcome the WBC; though I am also worried about potential injuries to Sox players, and am slightly saddened to see that Team GB didn't make the cut - although it's hardly surprising, given our Baseball Team's status within Europe.

Then again, for a brief moment in ST last year, didn't we all think that MB had banjaxed his foot/ankle while 'shagging'* fly-balls?
Injury can happen at any time, and for any number of dumb reasons.
I think that MLB has tried its best to prevent injury to Pitchers with the WBC-only rules to limit their involvement.

Only time will tell whether the concept of the tournament is successful.
Optimists will recall that Soccer's World Cup started out very small and unloved in 1930, but, after many changes to its modus operandi, it's now the biggest sporting event in the World.

Still, the price for the caps of the National Teams is a ridiculous indicator of the money-grubbing desire behind the competition.

* Which is NOT a term that could be used for this activity on this side of the Atlantic!

THE_HOOTER
12-15-2005, 11:17 PM
Longshot:

If you want to make it meaningful, which MLB does NOT wish to do, then play the game the way baseball is supposed to be played, no exceptions, no rule changes (unlike now), play it during the middle of the season when players are actually in shape and most important of all, get the BEST players to play for the countries they were BORN in. Piazza does NOT play for Italy for example. If the rest of the world wants to play with the U.S., Canada and the Latin Countries let them develop their own damn teams. No gifts.

This is pure garbage, a total complete farce. I for one will not watch one inning, one at bat, one pitch.

I just hope to hell no one on the Sox get hurt and that this doesn't cause the Sox to piss something away in September because the three players are very worn out. Ludicrous trying to play 'meaningful' baseball games on March 3rd.

Regarding the rest of the world playing the sport, what North America, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Australia and Latin America isn't enough for you? I guess you want to make sure those Germans take up the sport....how about the Irish, no wait the Angolans!

The U.S. by and large could care less about soccer...the rest of the world survives and the game is played in areas that care....same is true for baseball. It doesn't need to be promoted at the expense of hurting players and more to the point hurting teams for games that actually MEAN something.

Lip



WOW.

I couldnt agree more.

MLB is trying stir up a WBC by comprising so many rules that dilute the whole point of our game.

Money, money, money.

FarWestChicago
12-15-2005, 11:22 PM
Longshot:

If you want to make it meaningful, which MLB does NOT wish to do, then play the game the way baseball is supposed to be played, no exceptions, no rule changes (unlike now), play it during the middle of the season when players are actually in shape and most important of all, get the BEST players to play for the countries they were BORN in. Piazza does NOT play for Italy for example. If the rest of the world wants to play with the U.S., Canada and the Latin Countries let them develop their own damn teams. No gifts.

This is pure garbage, a total complete farce. I for one will not watch one inning, one at bat, one pitch.

I just hope to hell no one on the Sox get hurt and that this doesn't cause the Sox to piss something away in September because the three players are very worn out. Ludicrous trying to play 'meaningful' baseball games on March 3rd.

Regarding the rest of the world playing the sport, what North America, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Australia and Latin America isn't enough for you? I guess you want to make sure those Germans take up the sport....how about the Irish, no wait the Angolans!

The U.S. by and large could care less about soccer...the rest of the world survives and the game is played in areas that care....same is true for baseball. It doesn't need to be promoted at the expense of hurting players and more to the point hurting teams for games that actually MEAN something.

LipNice rant, Lip. Absolutely excellent. Well done!! :cool:

gowhitesox
12-16-2005, 12:58 AM
Hey maybe I can try out for the British team. My ancestors only moved from there 125 years ago.

Good point. I could probably try out for the British team, my mom was born there. There has to be some restriction. If a player is born in the USA of say German ancestry. He should play for the country he was born in. I question the WBC will take off.

IowaSox1971
12-16-2005, 06:11 AM
Homefish:

And have you looked at some of the names on these rosters? Some of these guys don't derserve to be within ten feet of anyone on an 'All-Star' roster...yet they are. This is almost as bad as the All Star Popularity Contest where the best players don't make it but the ones the fans vote in do.

By no stretch of the imagination are these the 'best' players from their countries.... they are the ones who said 'yes'... big difference. Which implies that a number of games said basically 'no thanks.'

Lip


I worry about injuries to White Sox players, too, and I agree that this might not be a great tournament as far as intense competition goes, but the long-range effects should be positive for baseball. Remember when the Dream Team played in the 1992 Olympics? Those Olympics showed other countries how much they had to improve and also exposed the U.S. brand of basketball to kids all around the world. Now, many more top basketball players are coming from foreign countries. The same thing could happen here, where 15 or 20 years from now, more countries are producing major-league caliber players.

bobowhite
12-16-2005, 09:13 AM
Then again, for a brief moment in ST last year, didn't we all think that MB had banjaxed his foot/ankle while 'shagging'* fly-balls?
Injury can happen at any time, and for any number of dumb reasons.
I think that MLB has tried its best to prevent injury to Pitchers with the WBC-only rules to limit their involvement.

* Which is NOT a term that could be used for this activity on this side of the Atlantic!

Well, one could do that to fly balls anywhere in the Commonwealth, but it comes with the risk of arrest for public indecency.

1951Campbell
12-16-2005, 09:31 AM
The WBC is PR/marketing BS. I don't give a tin **** if it helps "grow the game" in Liechtenstein or Malawi or wherever when the Sox should be keeping guys injury-free for their Championship defense.