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View Full Version : A look back at the trade, NOT THOME, but Garcia


Stoky44
12-05-2005, 02:44 PM
While watching basball tonight on ESPN today, I had a few thoughts. First when they were talking about the Sox they said "And the World Champion Chicago White Sox..." it sent shivers down my spine. Thats so awesome.

Ok back to the thread about the trade. Also while watching ESPN, the bottom line said Miguel Olivo was claimed off waivers by the Padres.

How awesome was Kenny in this trade:

We get:
A high quality pitcher who pitches in the winning game of the World Series.

Seattle gets:
Miguel Olivo --> put on waivers: .217, 9hrs, 34rbi, 7sb
Jeremy Reed--> 141gms, .254, 3hrs, 45rbi, 12sb, .322obp

WOW KENNY, YOU'RE THE GREATEST!!

gr8mexico
12-05-2005, 02:51 PM
That's why noone in here can ever say anything bad about Kennny and his trades.:bandance:

Stoky44
12-05-2005, 02:53 PM
My bad, I guess Olivo played 37 games with The Dad's last year. Stupid ESPN puts it on the bottom line, like it just happend.

Frater Perdurabo
12-05-2005, 03:01 PM
Shhhh..... We don't want to bring jeremyb out of hiding to demonstrate how the trade really hurt the Sox.

:roflmao:

Sly
12-05-2005, 03:01 PM
Ha ha ... your ignorance of Olivo's whereabout only further solidifies your point!

caulfield12
12-05-2005, 03:03 PM
While watching basball tonight on ESPN today, I had a few thoughts. First when they were talking about the Sox they said "And the World Champion Chicago White Sox..." it sent shivers down my spine. Thats so awesome.

Ok back to the thread about the trade. Also while watching ESPN, the bottom line said Miguel Olivo was claimed off waivers by the Padres.

How awesome was Kenny in this trade:

We get:
A high quality pitcher who pitches in the winning game of the World Series.

Seattle gets:
Miguel Olivo --> put on waivers: .217, 9hrs, 34rbi, 7sb
Jeremy Reed--> 141gms, .254, 3hrs, 45rbi, 12sb, .322obp

WOW KENNY, YOU'RE THE GREATEST!!

Right now, it looks like J. Reed will be the starting CF and expected to produce better results. KW definitely maximized the value out of Reed, as he believed that he had already maxxed out his ability and would never be more valuable to the Sox as a bargaining chip after the minor league season he had in 2003.

KW always felt that the three young outfield prospects had higher upsides and that Reed wasnīt good enough to start over Rowand either.

Olivoīs lack of performance was the shocking part. The Sox really did a good job of matching him up with favorable pitchers, which inflated his offensive stats. In reality, it turned out he was not a reliable everyday catcher, despite his arm strength. Plus there were questions about his game-management and other leadership intangibles.

Baby Fisk
12-05-2005, 03:09 PM
Shhhh..... We don't want to bring jeremyb out of hiding to demonstrate how the trade really hurt the Sox.

:roflmao:
Oh you can laugh now Frater. Yuk it up real good. jeremyb will have the last laugh at Reed's HOF induction speech. And all we will have is a crummy WS title to reminisce about...

Seriously tho, I remember feeling great horror when Olivo's name was announced in the deal. It was heartbreaking (think Rowand 2005). For about 2 days I felt horrible for Olivo. But within a few weeks, Freddy had made me forget all about Miguel. Actually, Olivo's performance since the trade has made me forget all about him too.

ode to veeck
12-05-2005, 03:16 PM
Shhhh..... We don't want to bring jeremyb out of hiding to demonstrate how the trade really hurt the Sox.:roflmao:

LOL! that would have to be only on Halloween

PAPChiSox729
12-05-2005, 03:19 PM
While watching basball tonight on ESPN today, I had a few thoughts. First when they were talking about the Sox they said "And the World Champion Chicago White Sox..." it sent shivers down my spine. Thats so awesome.

Ok back to the thread about the trade. Also while watching ESPN, the bottom line said Miguel Olivo was claimed off waivers by the Padres.

How awesome was Kenny in this trade:

We get:
A high quality pitcher who pitches in the winning game of the World Series.

Seattle gets:
Miguel Olivo --> put on waivers: .217, 9hrs, 34rbi, 7sb
Jeremy Reed--> 141gms, .254, 3hrs, 45rbi, 12sb, .322obp

WOW KENNY, YOU'RE THE GREATEST!!

Don't forget about Mike Morse now!
:redneck

bobowhite
12-05-2005, 03:22 PM
I'm not ready to say Reed was a throwaway. I think the Sox made a good trade and I think Garcia definately became a solid part of the best 5-man rotation in baseball last year. Reed probably has several more years left in him than Garcia although I doubt Reed will make HOF. I don't expect Freddy to either. KW knew that Reed wouldn't replace Rowand and that the next generation of Sox OF wasn't far behind. But gambling that three high prospects are all going to pan out and you won't need a top-rated one? That's a significant gamble. I'm glad the Sox made the deal and KW did well. If Garcia pitches for 3 more years and Reed plays solid for another 10 are the Sox still way ahead?

Stoky44
12-05-2005, 03:29 PM
If Garcia pitches for 3 more years and Reed plays solid for another 10 are the Sox still way ahead?

ANSWER:

chaotic8512
12-05-2005, 03:40 PM
I am right there with Stoky... I don't care if Reed breaks any HR records or anything like that. We have the reputation of having the best team in the world in 2005. That will never change. :D:

infohawk
12-05-2005, 03:43 PM
On a similar note, it will be very interesting to see how the two left-handed pitchers KW sent to the Phillies will pan out. I know several people on this board were pretty high on them. I'm not doubting their value, but I wonder if KW's willingness to deal them for Thome indicates that Sox brass viewed them as more expendable than some of the other minor league pitchers. I only say this because KW has demonstrated that he knows what he is doing, especially with minor league players.

Off the top of my head, Carlos Lee is the only really good player he has traded away. As we know, that trade worked out well for both teams. I suppose Keith Foulke could be mentioned as well, but I still don't think that was a bad trade from a cost perspective. I will agree that Koch was awful, but he got Olivo in that deal and ended up flipping him with Reed and Mike (Juiced) Morse for Garcia. The Sox weren't going to keep Foulke when he became a FA anyway. I guess I could also mention Ray Durham, but he was traded just before his skills started to decline.

Todd Ritchie was a bust, but Kip Wells and Josh Fogg aren't worldbeaters either. We gave up Guerrier for Marte, and he hasn't proved to be anything special. I remember some saying that Guerrier reminded them of Greg Maddux. Aaron Miles is just so-so as an everyday second baseman. He'd be more valuable if he could play other infield positions. Jon Rauch isn't doing much these days. Is Rocky Biddle even in the game anymore? We all know what happened to Mike Sirotka. Frankie Francisco is a pretty solid reliever for the Rangers, but he was involved in that chair-throwing incident.

The point is that KW seems to trade players that don't really become anything special. Maybe its the crapshoot nature of young talent, but then again, maybe he and his player development people are better judgers of talent than other organizations.

mjharrison72
12-05-2005, 03:46 PM
Oh you can laugh now Frater. Yuk it up real good. jeremyb will have the last laugh at Reed's HOF induction speech. And all we will have is a crummy WS title to reminisce about...

Seriously tho, I remember feeling great horror when Olivo's name was announced in the deal. It was heartbreaking (think Rowand 2005). For about 2 days I felt horrible for Olivo. But within a few weeks, Freddy had made me forget all about Miguel. Actually, Olivo's performance since the trade has made me forget all about him too.

There was the additional concern that Olivo appeared to be our catcher of the future and his trade left a void there that Ben Davis didn't appear likely to fill.

Baby Fisk
12-05-2005, 03:48 PM
There was the additional concern that Olivo appeared to be our catcher of the future and his trade left a void there that Ben Davis didn't appear likely to fill.Sure enough, he didn't!

gr8mexico
12-05-2005, 03:51 PM
On a similar note, it will be very interesting to see how the two left-handed pitchers KW sent to the Phillies will pan out. I know several people on this board were pretty high on them. I'm not doubting their value, but I wonder if KW's willingness to deal them for Thome indicates that Sox brass viewed them as more expendable than some of the other minor league pitchers. I only say this because KW has demonstrated that he knows what he is doing, especially with minor league players.

Off the top of my head, Carlos Lee is the only really good player he has traded away. As we know, that trade worked out well for both teams. I suppose Keith Foulke could be mentioned as well, but I still don't think that was a bad trade from a cost perspective. I will agree that Koch was awful, but he got Olivo in that deal and ended up flipping him with Reed and Mike (Juiced) Morse for Garcia. The Sox weren't going to keep Foulke when he became a FA anyway. I guess I could also mention Ray Durham, but he was traded just before his skills started to decline.

Todd Ritchie was a bust, but Kip Wells and Josh Fogg aren't worldbeaters either. We gave up Guerrier for Marte, and he hasn't proved to be anything special. I remember some saying that Guerrier reminded them of Greg Maddux. Aaron Miles is just so-so as an everyday second baseman. He'd be more valuable if he could play other infield positions. Jon Rauch isn't doing much these days. Is Rocky Biddle even in the game anymore? We all know what happened to Mike Sirotka. Frankie Francisco is a pretty solid reliever for the Rangers, but he was involved in that chair-throwing incident.

The point is that KW seems to trade players that don't really become anything special. Maybe its the crapshoot nature of young talent, but then again, maybe he and his player development people are better judgers of talent than other organizations. Dont Forget that in the Faulk trade the Sox got Neal Cotts.

infohawk
12-05-2005, 03:55 PM
Dont Forget that in the Faulk trade the Sox got Neal Cotts.
How could I have forgotten Neal? He's the man! Man, that trade was pretty good. If Koch would have been able to throw 98-99 like he had been in Oakland, that trade would have been a fleecing considering Foulke was a one-year rental for the A's. KW also gave them Mark Johnson in that deal. He's not doing much these days.

caulfield12
12-05-2005, 03:56 PM
On a similar note, it will be very interesting to see how the two left-handed pitchers KW sent to the Phillies will pan out. I know several people on this board were pretty high on them. I'm not doubting their value, but I wonder if KW's willingness to deal them for Thome indicates that Sox brass viewed them as more expendable than some of the other minor league pitchers. I only say this because KW has demonstrated that he knows what he is doing, especially with minor league players.

Off the top of my head, Carlos Lee is the only really good player he has traded away. As we know, that trade worked out well for both teams. I suppose Keith Foulke could be mentioned as well, but I still don't think that was a bad trade from a cost perspective. I will agree that Koch was awful, but he got Olivo in that deal and ended up flipping him with Reed and Mike (Juiced) Morse for Garcia. The Sox weren't going to keep Foulke when he became a FA anyway. I guess I could also mention Ray Durham, but he was traded just before his skills started to decline.

Todd Ritchie was a bust, but Kip Wells and Josh Fogg aren't worldbeaters either. We gave up Guerrier for Marte, and he hasn't proved to be anything special. I remember some saying that Guerrier reminded them of Greg Maddux. Aaron Miles is just so-so as an everyday second baseman. He'd be more valuable if he could play other infield positions. Jon Rauch isn't doing much these days. Is Rocky Biddle even in the game anymore? We all know what happened to Mike Sirotka. Frankie Francisco is a pretty solid reliever for the Rangers, but he was involved in that chair-throwing incident.

The point is that KW seems to trade players that don't really become anything special. Maybe its the crapshoot nature of young talent, but then again, maybe he and his player development people are better judgers of talent than other organizations.

Francisco came from the Red Sox in the Howry deal...he was Bobby Jenks before Bobby Jenks 2005, but he also is coming off season-ending major reconstructive surgery and might not ever regain his 98 MPH fastball (see Barcelo, Lorenzo).

The jury is still very much out on Josh Rupe and Anthony Webster, who was once our #5 prospect and a CF in the Chris Young mold minus the power.

Some other players that KW dealt...

Chris Singleton for Willie Harris (net positive)

Scott Eyre for Gary Glover (didnīt work out over the long-term, although GG was serviceable with us)

Jeff Abbott for Julio Ramirez (both lost)

one of the best deals might be Owens for Alex Escobar, who never even played for us

Mike Sirotka for David Wells

Matt Ginter for Timo Perez

daveeym
12-05-2005, 03:57 PM
Dont Forget that in the Faulk trade the Sox got Neal Cotts. Dang they should have traded him to the Bears rather than let him sign with the Colts.

gr8mexico
12-05-2005, 04:00 PM
Dang they should have traded him to the Bears rather than let him sign with the Colts. :redface:

ChiSoxLifer
12-05-2005, 04:03 PM
There was the additional concern that Olivo appeared to be our catcher of the future and his trade left a void there that Ben Davis didn't appear likely to fill.

I think the White Sox got a little lucky when AJ became a clubhouse cancer and KW astute enough to "un-cancer" him.

I'm about to say something that I'll probably get slammed for but does anyone think that maybe the Sox minor league system is a little overrated? It was just a few yrs ago the Sox were deemed to have the best minor system in baseball. I can't think of any of that year's top prospects that became remotely productive. Rauch, Borchard, and Ginter are the names I can remember. Perhaps someone can refresh my memory. How long will it be before before another GM thinks the same thing and decide not to trade with KW? I compare that to drafting Penn State running backs and Duke Blue Devils in the first round.

infohawk
12-05-2005, 04:14 PM
I think the White Sox got a little lucky when AJ became a clubhouse cancer and KW astute enough to "un-cancer" him.

I'm about to say something that I'll probably get slammed for but does anyone think that maybe the Sox minor league system is a little overrated?
There's probably some truth to your statement about the system being overrated. Look at all the players that didn't pan out. Also, there are always going to be lots of AAAA players. Guys who turn heads in the minors but can't quite make the performance jump to the majors. Sometimes the less heralded players are the ones who make it big. Look at Buerhle or a guy like Albert Pujols. I don't think Pujols was a "can't miss" kind of prospect. Most teams send their own scouts to evaluate young players prior to making trades, so I suppose it becomes hard to accuse one team of "bamboozling" another.

Flight #24
12-05-2005, 04:21 PM
IMO the experience KW had under Schueler highlighted something to him. Any prospect who's more than say 2 years away from the bigs is a ridiculously huge crapshoot. Injuries, developmental setbacks, inability to adjust while moving up levels, all kinds of potential roadblocks are there. There's also the fact that a good organization can find guys that move faster (or are more developed when you draft them).

So including highly touted yet risky prospects to get solid major leaguers isn't as huge of a risk as it would seem. And in fact, if you can trade them for bonafide major leaguers, especially when you have an open window to contend, it's lower risk than keeping them. Exhibits A-C being guys like Jason Stumm, Corwin Malone, Matt Ginter, etc. So he seems to be fairly free with dealing guys that are 2-4 years out, with possible exceptions for guys like Sweeney who he's very high on.

Which is why, despite being "robbed" in trades over the past few years while giving up a ton of Anthony Webster types, KW has yet to have someone he traded make a major impact. Meanwhile, the Sox are working on a title repeat.

caulfield12
12-05-2005, 04:24 PM
I think the White Sox got a little lucky when AJ became a clubhouse cancer and KW astute enough to "un-cancer" him.

I'm about to say something that I'll probably get slammed for but does anyone think that maybe the Sox minor league system is a little overrated? It was just a few yrs ago the Sox were deemed to have the best minor system in baseball. I can't think of any of that year's top prospects that became remotely productive. Rauch, Borchard, and Ginter are the names I can remember. Perhaps someone can refresh my memory. How long will it be before before another GM thinks the same thing and decide not to trade with KW? I compare that to drafting Penn State running backs and Duke Blue Devils in the first round.

The main pieces in those Top 10īs that failed badly were Rauch, Borchard, Lorenzo Barcelo, Jason Stumm and Corwin Malone.

Buehrle, Kip Wells, Jon Garland and Josh Fogg all became decent or very good starters. You also have Crede and Rowand from that time frame, so it is not as if it was a complete disaster by any means.

Matt Ginter, Aaron Myette and Matt Guerrier also fizzled, along with Brian West, although the first three guys have pitched on and off in the majors since being traded.

Rocky Biddle and Danny Wright were sidelined by injury problems and never lived up to their potential.

More than anything, pitching injuries typified this time period.

lumpyspun
12-05-2005, 05:01 PM
Most of the genius behind the Garcia deal was the briefly mentioned Mike Morse. He was the third player in the deal who got called up to the bigs this year wth Seattle. He was batting above .400 for a few weeks and the Seattle media was ready to build him up and say the Garcia deal worked out in THEIR favor. Then it came out that he tested positive for 'roids and his batting average fell back to the .200s. He claimed that the steroid he tested positive for was still in his system from his days with the White Sox farm system. He said he was being punished twice for the same instance. I'm not sure what the rule is about clubs having to make public steroid tests for their minor leaguers, but Morse had tested positive while he was with the White Sox farm system. If KW was able to deal him even after it was publicly known that he tested positive, then he really is a genius.

However, the kid does have talent and he may end up being a great player in the near future.

Frater Perdurabo
12-05-2005, 05:15 PM
If Garcia pitches for 3 more years and Reed plays solid for another 10 are the Sox still way ahead?

That depends on how many World Series Championships Reed helps bring to Seattle. Right now it's Sox 1, Mariners 0. :redneck

nodiggity59
12-05-2005, 05:17 PM
Read my ****ing tag :D:

Stoky44
12-05-2005, 06:53 PM
I suppose Keith Foulke could be mentioned as well, but I still don't think that was a bad trade from a cost perspective. I will agree that Koch was awful, but he got Olivo in that deal and ended up flipping him with Reed and Mike (Juiced) Morse for Garcia. The Sox weren't going to keep Foulke when he became a FA anyway.

We got Neal Cotts with the Foulke trade. Got Olivo for Bradford.

Gremlin3
12-05-2005, 07:04 PM
Same Deal


http://baseball-reference.com/o/olivomi01.shtml

lostletters
12-05-2005, 11:37 PM
I think the Garcia trade was the best KW has ever done. The amazing part is he traded before the yankees could get him (they were in discussions as well).

The guy is COMPLETELY underestimated. He gets players when everybody else sees thier value as low or have a bad rap.

The Carlos Lee trade was probably the one trade that was absolutely win-win, Milwaukee got its first season at .500 and an anchor for thier lineup, the Sox got thier World Series Championship. I think even Lee and Pods came out big, both got to be all stars. Possibly the greatest win-win trade in the history of baseball, and one that really did change the course of baseball.

SouthSoxFan
12-06-2005, 07:48 AM
Don't forget Loaiza for Contreras (plus $3 mil). Finished that one in the final minute before the deadline in 2004.