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View Full Version : Helling now a free agent


Spiff
12-20-2001, 09:59 PM
They said no free agents but what do you guys think

http://rangers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/tex/news/tex_news_story.jsp?article_id=tex_20011220_nontend ers_news&team_id=tex

kermittheefrog
12-20-2001, 10:03 PM
I think it's too late now but he would have been a better fit than Todd Ritchie.

WinningUgly!
12-20-2001, 10:09 PM
As for Helling, he made 145 consecutive starts without missing a turn since rejoining the Texas rotation in 1997. He has made 137 starts over the last four seasons, most in the American League and third most in the Majors during that span.

He would be a nice veteran arm to have in the rotation. He wasn't exactly Roger Clemens last year, but for the right price he might be woth a shot.

duke of dorwood
12-20-2001, 10:10 PM
:KW

Hey I dont pick up a player unless I make a bad trade for him

WinningUgly!
12-20-2001, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
:KW

Hey I dont pick up a player unless I make a bad trade for him
:dumbash
"That was always my philosophy too."

GASHWOUND
12-20-2001, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!


He would be a nice veteran arm to have in the rotation. He wasn't exactly Roger Clemens last year, but for the right price he might be woth a shot.

Last season, Helling (12-11, 5.17 ERA) led the Rangers in wins (12), starts (34), complete games (2), innings (215.2) and strikeouts (154). He won at least 10 or more games for the fourth consecutive season tying Texas' longest such streak since Charlie Hough accomplished the feat from 1982 to 1990.


All i remembered is that he was horrible the 1st half of the season. What was his #'s the 2nd half? and was that justa downer year or will he be back to original form. I guess he would be an ok 4th starter for us if we can get him cheap. I wonder what the going price is for him. 5 mill a year? 6 mill? But KW isn't going after FA, so I guess its a mute point.

nut_stock
12-20-2001, 10:27 PM
We don't need Helling, Ritchie is a step above him anyway. If Kenny wants another vet starter, it should only be someone of ACE caliber, otherwise your just taking the ball out of the young kids hands.

kermittheefrog
12-20-2001, 10:32 PM
Helling not as good as Ritchie? Look at the last 4 years. Helling has had 3 above average ERAs and all 4 years 200 innings. Same period of time for Ritchie? One above average ERA, one 200 innings season, they weren't the same season either. Helling 61-42, Ritchie 35-32. One of those seasons Ritchie threw just 24 innings in releif for the Twins. If you think Ritchie is a better pitcher you should look closer. I think the Rangers made a mistake in ditching Helling.

WinningUgly!
12-20-2001, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Helling not as good as Ritchie? Look at the last 4 years. Helling has had 3 above average ERAs and all 4 years 200 innings. Same period of time for Ritchie? One above average ERA, one 200 innings season, they weren't the same season either. Helling 61-42, Ritchie 35-32. One of those seasons Ritchie threw just 24 innings in releif for the Twins. If you think Ritchie is a better pitcher you should look closer. I think the Rangers made a mistake in ditching Helling.

Just his ability to stay healthy & take the hill every 5th day should make him attractive to us. That's been a major problem for us the past few years...incase anybody hasn't noticed.

czalgosz
12-20-2001, 10:51 PM
I still think it's apples and oranges to compare AL and NL pitchers, but...

Ritchie 2001 WHIP - 1.27
Helling 2001 WHIP - 1.48

Ritchie 2001 HR - 23
Helling 2001 HR - 38

Ritchie career WHIP - 1.35
Helling career WHIP - 1.41

Helling is a gopherball pitcher when he's at his best. He pitches a lot of innings, but he's not that good. I tend to agree with those who say the Sox gave up too much for Ritchie, but he's not better than Helling.

WinningUgly!
12-20-2001, 10:53 PM
Looks like Helling was let go so the Rangers can sign Chan Ho Park...

What the Helling (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2001/1220/1299377.html)

nut_stock
12-20-2001, 10:56 PM
"Just his ability to stay healthy & take the hill every 5th day should make him attractive to us."


I can't dispute that, but in regards to Ritchie vs Helling, Helling had an ERA of 5.17 last year compared to Ritchie's 4.47, and Helling has been a starter since 1994. Ritchie was a late bloomer who first started games in 1999. Helling gave up a whopping 38 home runs last year compared to 23. Helling's career era is 4.75!

I think I'll stick with Ritchie!

czalgosz
12-20-2001, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND


I guess its a mute point.

BTW, the word is "moot". Sorry, but I couldn't let that slide.

FarWestChicago
12-20-2001, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


BTW, the word is "moot". Sorry, but I couldn't let that slide. I guess it's genetic. :smile:

kermittheefrog
12-20-2001, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I still think it's apples and oranges to compare AL and NL pitchers, but...

Ritchie 2001 WHIP - 1.27
Helling 2001 WHIP - 1.48

Ritchie 2001 HR - 23
Helling 2001 HR - 38

Ritchie career WHIP - 1.35
Helling career WHIP - 1.41

Helling is a gopherball pitcher when he's at his best. He pitches a lot of innings, but he's not that good. I tend to agree with those who say the Sox gave up too much for Ritchie, but he's not better than Helling.

That doesn't tell the whole story.

1. Ritchie was in fact better than Helling last year.
2. Helling has pitched primarily in a hitters park, the Ballpark in Arlington and Ritchie in two pitchers parks, PNC Park and 3 Rivers Stadium.

If you factor in parks, Helling has been unquestionably better. Helling has better ERA+ numbers and he gets more Ks. He also pitches more innings. Ritchie has only had one above average year in his career, it was a pretty good year, he posted an ERA 30% better than an average pitcher in the same conditions but it was just one year. Helling was at least 4% better than average each year from 98-2000. We're talking about consistency versus a guy who had one fluke great year.

nut_stock
12-20-2001, 11:39 PM
Ritchie's first year as a starter was 1999, in which he was an absolute stud. He get's injured sometime during the 2000 season and that year plus the first half of last year were not as impressive, but just remember how strong Ritchie finished last year.

Helling had his career year in 1996, and has declined ever since. My point is that(and yes it's an opinion)Helling is on his way down, and Ritchie is still on his way up.

Now to be honest, when I first stated I'd rather have Ritchie than Helling, I hadn't looked at either's stats, I was merely relying on the few times I saw each pitch last season. From what I saw Helling sucked. But even after I looked after the stats Im still sold on Ritchie. Helling has had the benefit of some damn fine hitters on his team, and run support isn't even close.

RedPinStripes
12-21-2001, 12:36 AM
Let's see........

As of now this is close to what the rotation would be:

Mark
Ritchie
Parque
Garland
Wright\Rauch\Malone\Biddle


I'd rather keep the 5th spot open to see who can win that battle out of our so called future stars we've been waiting for.


Helling is not worth it.

Pete Ward
12-21-2001, 07:34 AM
I'd sign Helling in a minute. The guy is a workhorse pitching in a great Hitters Park. He's a 200 inning eater. He'd make a solid #2-3 starter.

I'll take as my starting 5.

Burly-Mon
Give em Hell-ing
Richie-Rich
Tinsel and Garland
Butter not Parque

Using Parque as a #5 gives him more time to get his arm strength back.

Use Wright(or wrong) and , Biddle as in middle -reliever

Osuna, Wunch, Howry, Foulke

Thats a division winning staff my freinds.

Soxboyrob
12-21-2001, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Pete Ward
I'll take as my starting 5.

Burly-Mon
Give em Hell-ing
Richie-Rich
Tinsel and Garland
Butter not Parque

Using Parque as a #5 gives him more time to get his arm strength back.

Use Wright(or wrong) and , Biddle as in middle -reliever

Osuna, Wunch, Howry, Foulke

Thats a division winning staff my freinds.

Ugh...That's a division winning staff? Maybe in a suck-ass division like ours, but not in a good division. How can you even consider Parque a member of the Sox rotation until he actually proves he can throw the ball above 85 MPH? Those expecting big things from Parque are probably in for a bit of a disappointment. I hope I'm totally wrong about all of this and that we win the division by 10 games.

FarmerAndy
12-21-2001, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


How can you even consider Parque a member of the Sox rotation until he actually proves he can throw the ball above 85 MPH?

Agreed. I've never been fully convinced of Parque's ability. After being out this long, I don't think he should be written in for a spot in the rotation. He needs to earn it back.

longshot7
12-21-2001, 11:33 AM
I agree Kerm - I think Helling would make a good pickup - but what's the chances of that happening, especially if we have to offer a multiyear deal, which I dont think is a good idea.

Despite our 2nd half last year, too many young guys in the rotation is not a good idea - see 1998 & 99.

As of now, even IF we win the division, we're gonna get killed in the playoffs against New York, Oakland, Seattle, etc. We cannot be satisfied with this rotation. It's cheap.

czalgosz
12-21-2001, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


That doesn't tell the whole story.

1. Ritchie was in fact better than Helling last year.
2. Helling has pitched primarily in a hitters park, the Ballpark in Arlington and Ritchie in two pitchers parks, PNC Park and 3 Rivers Stadium.

If you factor in parks, Helling has been unquestionably better. Helling has better ERA+ numbers and he gets more Ks. He also pitches more innings. Ritchie has only had one above average year in his career, it was a pretty good year, he posted an ERA 30% better than an average pitcher in the same conditions but it was just one year. Helling was at least 4% better than average each year from 98-2000. We're talking about consistency versus a guy who had one fluke great year.

Helling Home (2001) - 3.78 ERA, 116.2 IP, 18 starts, 13 HR
Helling Road (2001) - 6.82 ERA, 99 IP, 16 starts, 25 HR

Whatever reasons for Helling's poor performance in 2001, it wasn't the Ballpark.

Listen, Kermit, I thought the Sox gave up one too many pitchers, too. And Helling has nice control. But he gives up too many homers. He's a big-inning pitcher, the kind of guy who will blow a 5-run lead for you in one inning. Todd Ritchie is a better pitcher at this point in their respective careers.

Paulwny
12-21-2001, 11:57 AM
One question, how will Ritchie pitch now that he's with a contender? No pressure in Pitt.

kermittheefrog
12-21-2001, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Helling Home (2001) - 3.78 ERA, 116.2 IP, 18 starts, 13 HR
Helling Road (2001) - 6.82 ERA, 99 IP, 16 starts, 25 HR

Whatever reasons for Helling's poor performance in 2001, it wasn't the Ballpark.

Listen, Kermit, I thought the Sox gave up one too many pitchers, too. And Helling has nice control. But he gives up too many homers. He's a big-inning pitcher, the kind of guy who will blow a 5-run lead for you in one inning. Todd Ritchie is a better pitcher at this point in their respective careers.

You're saying one bad year makes Ritchie a better pitcher? I completely disagree. I'd say there are 4 really important categories in pitching, hits allowed, walks allowed, homers allowed and strikeouts. In 2001 Helling improved or remained the same in 3 of those categories (walks, Ks, homers) but completely bombed with hits.

Hits a a fluky way to judge a pitcher because hits are defense dependent. Your D has a bad day you and you give up a lot of hits. So because Helling's K-rate and K/BB ratio actually improved in 2001 it's a pretty good bet his hits allowed was the defense bombinb rather than Helling turning into David Wells. I don't think we should still bring Helling in now, we've got Ritchie but if we had the choice all along I would take Helling.

RichH55
12-22-2001, 08:12 AM
I think the fact that the Texas Rangers gave up on him is a rather telling sign...they arent exactly the Atlanta Braves out there

Daver
12-22-2001, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
I think the fact that the Texas Rangers gave up on him is a rather telling sign...they arent exactly the Atlanta Braves out there

The Rangers released him to clear payroll for Park,not because of performance.

RichH55
12-22-2001, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by daver


The Rangers released him to clear payroll for Park,not because of performance.

Fair enough on the Park portion, but if Helling was still worth the money they should have bit the bullet as even with Park they still need a lot of pitching

Daver
12-22-2001, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by RichH55


Fair enough on the Park portion, but if Helling was still worth the money they should have bit the bullet as even with Park they still need a lot of pitching

The Rangers are not the Yankees,the payroll is not limitless.They made every effort to trade Helling,but his salary is not = to his trade value,thus it made more sense to cut him loose.

But then again what the hell do I know ?

RichH55
12-22-2001, 10:03 AM
The same Tom Hick Rangers who gave :payrod 25 million + incentives, maneveured for Park, took on Everitt's contract wont pay Helling his contract if he is a 2 or 3 starter?

Daver
12-22-2001, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
The same Tom Hick Rangers who gave :payrod 25 million + incentives, maneveured for Park, took on Everitt's contract wont pay Helling his contract if he is a 2 or 3 starter?

Something had to give,and Helling is not worth what his contract called for.I still haven't figured out why they wanted Everett.

czalgosz
12-22-2001, 11:40 AM
They actually made money on the Everett deal - not only is Darren Oliver going to make more money in 2002 than Everett is, but the Red Sox agreed to pay about $1 Mill of Everett's salary. It goes to show how desperate the BoSox were to get rid of him.

My prediction - Before the 2003 season begins, Ivan Rodriguez will be traded. The Rangers will cut payroll once again. Alex Rodriguez will begin to publicly complain about how the Rangers "don't want to win" and start hinting that he wants to be traded.