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View Full Version : The end of $200+ million payrolls?


Fantosme
12-04-2005, 03:57 AM
The Yankees lost between $50-$85 million last year, and that number may increase soon.

Link (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/371543p-316044c.html)

doublem23
12-04-2005, 04:14 AM
The Yankees lost between $50-$85 million last year, and that number may increase soon.

Link (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/371543p-316044c.html)

George Steinbrenner's a ****ing liar; there's no way he's losing money on the Yankees.

Fredsox
12-04-2005, 05:36 AM
I don't know that much about the financial side of things, but the arguments sound plausible. The Yankees have made a lot of expensive moves in the past few years and last year they all seemed to be bad ones. If the orgy of spending in NY doesn't end and they refuse to clean up their financial mess by dumping their over-priced talent, they could be in trouble for years to come. By "trouble" I mean non-competitive, I don't believe the franchise itself is in trouble.

Conversely the White Sox are fiscally responsible and thus is positioned to make significant investments in talent when needed. I would much rather be us than them.

dickallen15
12-04-2005, 08:02 AM
Considering their revenue sharing and luxury tax bill comes out to $110 million, its possible they aren't making any money. I have a hard time believing they would actually be losing $85 million this year though. Think of the team JR could put together if he was willing to lose $85 million a year.

bigfoot
12-04-2005, 08:20 AM
After separating the revenues from parking, concessions, etc, from the overall revenues of the NYYs, and figuring in the luxtax outlay, there may have been a sizable "paper" loss. Let's not lose sight of the massive cable fee revenues and the prospect of the building of a new Yankee Stadium which will preclude those "luxury tax" payments.


King George, losing money on the Yankees?:kneeslap:

MadetoOrta
12-04-2005, 09:05 AM
I believe the Sox success will bring an end to the $200 million plus payrolls, not because the Yankees "lost money" but because of how much money the Yankees can net and still win.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2005, 01:10 PM
Just wait till you see the Yankee payroll when their new stadium opens in a few years. They have the potential to draw five or five and a half million fans (depending on the seating capacity) that translates into wads and wads of cash.

So to answer the original question, no, you haven't seen the end of 200 million payrolls, nor of 140 million or 120 million or 100 million. Franchises will do what they think is best for them.

Lip

fquaye149
12-04-2005, 01:30 PM
Considering their revenue sharing and luxury tax bill comes out to $110 million, its possible they aren't making any money. I have a hard time believing they would actually be losing $85 million this year though. Think of the team JR could put together if he was willing to lose $85 million a year.

Hmm, maybe a team like the 2005 Yankees?

I love KW as a GM, but part of his strength comes from being hamstrung a LITTLE in the payroll dpt. He seems to have fascination with overpriced stars - we could be stuck with talent like Vazquez, Erstad, Griffey, etc. if he had the means to overpay. Clement, Odalis Perez, etc. Not that that would be an awful thing...but I think the restraint of mid-level payroll has forced him to make better decisions than if he had free reign to go out and get people like, for instance Adrian Beltre or Richie Sexson.

Hitmen77
12-04-2005, 01:33 PM
Just wait till you see the Yankee payroll when their new stadium opens in a few years. They have the potential to draw five or five and a half million fans (depending on the seating capacity) that translates into wads and wads of cash.

So to answer the original question, no, you haven't seen the end of 200 million payrolls, nor of 140 million or 120 million or 100 million. Franchises will do what they think is best for them.

Lip

Do you really think they're going to build a new stadium that seats 60,000?

CHISOXFAN13
12-04-2005, 01:37 PM
Just wait till you see the Yankee payroll when their new stadium opens in a few years. They have the potential to draw five or five and a half million fans (depending on the seating capacity) that translates into wads and wads of cash.

So to answer the original question, no, you haven't seen the end of 200 million payrolls, nor of 140 million or 120 million or 100 million. Franchises will do what they think is best for them.

Lip

The Yankees weren't even 100 percent capacity in the current Yankees Stadium this year. What makes you think by building a bigger park they suddenly will have capacity crowds nightly?

ilsox7
12-04-2005, 01:51 PM
The Yankees weren't even 100 percent capacity in the current Yankees Stadium this year. What makes you think by building a bigger park they suddenly will have capacity crowds nightly?

All of their sellouts (not sure how many) could actually attract many more fans, though. Those Red Sox games sold to capacity in Yankee Stadium will still sell to capacity in a new, bigger stadium, this adding a significant amount of people throughout the year. Also, a new stadium is also an attendance boon. So you may see a few years where every game is sold out. See Indians, Cleveland.

soxfanreggie
12-04-2005, 03:01 PM
Not figuring in a lot of things, I bet it is easy to say they are losing a lot of money. But then I wonder if those figures include merchandise profits, etc. It's easy in accounting to say you "lost" or "gained" a certain amount. But with Bud as commish, he was going to make sure teams like his Brewers made money off of revenue sharing. Funny how when he was owner, the Brew Crew made the most off of revenue sharing.

doogiec
12-04-2005, 07:17 PM
The new Yankee Stadium, as currently planned, will only have a seating capacity of 51,000, more than 6,000 LESS seats than current Yankee Stadium. Max attendance a little more than 4.1 million.

Fenway
12-04-2005, 09:32 PM
poor George :smile:

http://www.nydailynews.com/ips_rich_content/228-1204bigback.jpg
Yanks losing at Money Ball
Daily News Exclusive: Despite drawing more than four million fans, the Yankees lost between $50 million and $85 million for the 2005 season, several Major League Baseball sources told the Daily News. The benefactors of baseball, who pumped more than $200 million into their payroll and almost $110 million into revenue sharing and luxury tax, are deep in the red this year.
FULL STORY (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/371465p-316044c.html)

Time for the big
spenders to settle up
Mike Lupica: It isn't maddening enough for George Steinbrenner, in this era that has become chronically maddening for King George, that he has spent a billion dollars over the past five seasons, in payroll and luxury taxes, on Yankee teams that could not win him another World Series.
FULL STORY (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/371530p-316099c.html)

knocko94
12-04-2005, 09:35 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=63210

Fenway
12-04-2005, 09:37 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=63210

oops

didn't see it, I'm still thawing out from 4 hours in beautiful downtown Foxboro :?:

ilsox7
12-04-2005, 09:38 PM
oops

didn't see it, I'm still thawing out from 4 hours in beautiful downtown Foxboro :?:

Foxboro has a downtown? :?:

Lip Man 1
12-04-2005, 09:40 PM
Doog:

Consider that for those 51,000 seats the Yankees may actually charge MORE money since it is a 'new' stadium and the sight lines and emanates may be better. Perhaps that is one way you can get more income from less seats. (supply and demand)

Lip

Fenway
12-04-2005, 09:42 PM
Foxboro has a downtown? :?:

sort of :D:
http://www.foxborojaycees.org/p_greetings_from_foxboro.htm


Actually we park in Foxboro Center and walk to Gillette otherwise we be in the parking lot until the cows come home

The Jets are driving for Reggie Bush, they are pitiful

Fenway
12-04-2005, 09:46 PM
Doog:

Consider that for those 51,000 seats the Yankees may actually charge MORE money since it is a 'new' stadium and the sight lines and emanates may be better. Perhaps that is one way you can get more income from less seats. (supply and demand)

Lip

The Yankees sell a lot of tickets at $18 or less in the old stadium and have many $5 days.

The Red Sox take in far more at the gate than the Yankees where the average ticket is $45 to the Yankees $23.

The Deacon
12-04-2005, 09:51 PM
The new Yankee Stadium, as currently planned, will only have a seating capacity of 51,000, more than 6,000 LESS seats than current Yankee Stadium. Max attendance a little more than 4.1 million.

Coincidently, the Yankees attendance this year was 4.1 million. The most in team history.

ilsox7
12-04-2005, 09:56 PM
sort of :D:
http://www.foxborojaycees.org/p_greetings_from_foxboro.htm


Actually we park in Foxboro Center and walk to Gillette otherwise we be in the parking lot until the cows come home

The Jets are driving for Reggie Bush, they are pitiful

I always pictured Foxboro as a bunch of nothing with a stadium in an open field somewhere. Kinda like Plainfield was 10 years ago in the burbs.

Fenway
12-04-2005, 09:59 PM
I always pictured Foxboro as a bunch of nothing with a stadium in an open field somewhere. Kinda like Plainfield was 10 years ago in the burbs.

It is your typical New England small town....village green, church steeple. It is a bedroom community for both Boston and Providence.

It is brutal getting in and out of that stadium though

ericiii
12-04-2005, 11:12 PM
I always pictured Foxboro as a bunch of nothing with a stadium in an open field somewhere. Kinda like Plainfield was 10 years ago in the burbs.

Plainfield had a stadium?:D:

PKalltheway
12-04-2005, 11:40 PM
Coincidently, the Yankees attendance this year was 4.1 million. The most in team history.

Not only the most in team history, but the most in American League history, breaking the Blue Jays' old record originally set in 1993.

deck27
12-05-2005, 02:16 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2247401

If this is true, good news for the rest of baseball. Maybe they won't be so quick to sign EVERY damn free agent available.

Tekijawa
12-05-2005, 02:22 PM
I'm Guessing the Mets will do much worse next year...

Over By There
12-05-2005, 02:24 PM
I love "talkin' baseball." :wink:

lths06
12-05-2005, 02:28 PM
Not sure this is "great news", or even good, as all MLB teams are tied together somehow (whether directly or indirectly).

RallyBowl
12-05-2005, 02:34 PM
Great news! There was already a thread about this!

CLR01
12-05-2005, 03:36 PM
Great news! There was already a thread about this!


Some people can't be bothered to do a quick search to see if a topic is already being discussed.

Tekijawa
12-05-2005, 03:41 PM
Wonder how much of that would have been recouped if they were world series Championship team? I remember reading that the Sox made around 20 million extra because of it, I would imagine that with 10,000 more seats a game and all the other stuff that it would have come close.

SoxEd
12-05-2005, 03:43 PM
I'm sure that this has already entered your minds, but for everyone who thinks that there's no way George is losing money on the NYY franchise, I have this to add:

He has enough money/income to pay for Accountants/Tax Attorneys who are adept enough to convince the IRS that he is losing money on the franchise...
:o: :wink: :D:

Tekijawa
12-05-2005, 03:46 PM
He has enough money/income to pay for Accountants/Tax Attorneys who are adept enough to convince the IRS that he is losing money on the franchise...
:o: :wink: :D:

AND Turtle Necks!

http://www.survivinggrady.com/steinbrenner2.jpg

bobowhite
12-05-2005, 03:49 PM
End of $200 million payrolls?

Unless the Earth opens up and swallows the New York franchises, I'd say not likely.

Ol' No. 2
12-05-2005, 03:57 PM
Just wait till you see the Yankee payroll when their new stadium opens in a few years. They have the potential to draw five or five and a half million fans (depending on the seating capacity) that translates into wads and wads of cash.

So to answer the original question, no, you haven't seen the end of 200 million payrolls, nor of 140 million or 120 million or 100 million. Franchises will do what they think is best for them.

LipGate revenues are only about half of total local revenues for most teams, and probably less than half for the Yankees. If you assume net revenues of $40 per ticket, that extra million tickets works out to "only" another $40M.

This is certainly a paper loss. King George makes wads of cash from the YES network. What would they show if they didn't have the Yankees, ping-pong? Baseball has been hiding revenues for years. Wait until the Forbes report comes out.

Flight #24
12-05-2005, 04:14 PM
Gate revenues are only about half of total local revenues for most teams, and probably less than half for the Yankees. If you assume net revenues of $40 per ticket, that extra million tickets works out to "only" another $40M.

This is certainly a paper loss. King George makes wads of cash from the YES network. What would they show if they didn't have the Yankees, ping-pong? Baseball has been hiding revenues for years. Wait until the Forbes report comes out.

FWIW, baseball is also auditing the rights fee calculation for YES, which reportedly will result in increased revenue (and revenue sharing) for the Spankees as anything determined to be blow-market in terms of rights fees will be added to the book revenueof the Yankees for the porposes of revenue sharing.

Ol' No. 2
12-05-2005, 04:33 PM
FWIW, baseball is also auditing the rights fee calculation for YES, which reportedly will result in increased revenue (and revenue sharing) for the Spankees as anything determined to be blow-market in terms of rights fees will be added to the book revenueof the Yankees for the porposes of revenue sharing.I noticed that. Had to be pretty egregious for them to go to that length. This kind of thing goes on all around the league.

Flight #24
12-05-2005, 04:40 PM
I noticed that. Had to be pretty egregious for them to go to that length. This kind of thing goes on all around the league.

I think there's a specific desire to rein in King George among other owners since he's got by far the biggest revenue disparity from anyone else. What will be interesting is if he starts to get really pissed at being singled out and starts to make threats of his own.

Ol' No. 2
12-05-2005, 04:48 PM
I think there's a specific desire to rein in King George among other owners since he's got by far the biggest revenue disparity from anyone else. What will be interesting is if he starts to get really pissed at being singled out and starts to make threats of his own.What kind of threats? What's he going to do, pull his team from the league?

Flight #24
12-05-2005, 04:52 PM
What kind of threats? What's he going to do, pull his team from the league?

Well, he could start raising a stink that his fees are being audited and other teams aren't for similar things. It's seems to be kind of "don't ask, don't tell" to date, and I would think baseball wants to tread the fine line of keeping the Yanks in view of the pack financially while not creating a situation where they're risking other teams having their books audited similarly.

bobowhite
12-05-2005, 04:57 PM
I think the disparity caused by the Yankee$ is the worst thing going for major league baseball for the past 100 years. If the Yanks had to compete on even a semi-level playing field (as in all television money is divided equally among all teams and home team keeps the radio, ticket and merchandising money) then I bet the Yank$ wouldn't win half as many workd titles as they have. Keep in mind, until Landis threw out the 9 players from the Black Sox, the New York franchise never made any noise in the AL. The Giants were quite potent though.

Steelrod
12-05-2005, 05:05 PM
Coincidently, the Yankees attendance this year was 4.1 million. The most in team history.

BTW, this falls under the law of diminished returns. The more seats you build, the less the average seat is, as each additional seat is in the worst location, and is less likely to be used 81 times.. Also, since buildings usually goe up, it actually costs more per seat as you build more seats.

ma-gaga
12-05-2005, 05:15 PM
Well, in 15 years from now, $200MM will be considered a "mid payroll" team.

:cool: