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dougs78
12-20-2001, 09:40 AM
From article by Rob Neyer on espn.com
At this moment, Cleveland's starting outfield consists of Brady Anderson, Milton Bradley and Matt Lawton. At this moment, the Indians are down to one great hitter: Jim Thome. At this moment, the Chicago White Sox think they've got a great chance to assume primacy in the American League Central.

And at this moment, they're exactly right

In the words of Hawk, "I love it when you analyze!"

HERE (http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/42798.html) is the rest of the article discussing the demise of the Cleveland Indians.

CerberusWG
12-20-2001, 03:55 PM
Milton Bradely..great name, ROFL. Man he must of gotten so much flak for being named that.

czalgosz
12-20-2001, 05:32 PM
It's amazing how quickly the Indians have dropped off the map. John Hart destroyed that team in his last couple seasons there. To his credit, he did build it, but he made sure that he wasn't going to be around when it fell apart.

We can complain about KW all we want, but the Sox's playoff chances improved dramatically without making a single move.

kermittheefrog
12-20-2001, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
It's amazing how quickly the Indians have dropped off the map. John Hart destroyed that team in his last couple seasons there. To his credit, he did build it, but he made sure that he wasn't going to be around when it fell apart.

We can complain about KW all we want, but the Sox's playoff chances improved dramatically without making a single move.

What does that have to do with Kenny? The Indians are past their peak and the rest of the division hasn't been smart enough to put together real contenders. The division belongs to the Sox right now. What happens after that is the big deal and no one likes the idea of Todd Ritchie starting game 2 or game 3 of a playoff series.

FarmerAndy
12-20-2001, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


The division belongs to the Sox right now. What happens after that is the big deal and no one likes the idea of Todd Ritchie starting game 2 or game 3 of a playoff series.

I'm with you Kermit. I think the division will be no problem, but
I'd like to see a Sox team that can win a play-off game.

Spiff
12-20-2001, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
no one likes the idea of Todd Ritchie starting game 2 or game 3 of a playoff series.

That's what you think.

kermittheefrog
12-20-2001, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00


That's what you think.

Maybe you're right, I bet the Yanks and A's are shaking in their boots when they hear the name Todd Ritchie.

FarmerAndy
12-20-2001, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by CerberusWG
Milton Bradely..great name, ROFL. Man he must of gotten so much flak for being named that.

Yeah, The Parker Brothers teased him about it alot.

nut_stock
12-20-2001, 08:15 PM
Ritchie may not scare the socks off the Yankees in the playoffs but I bet Sirotka, Parque and Baldwin didn't scare the Mariners's either. Granted we lost, but it wansn't because of them. Ritchie in my mind is easily capable of outperforming any of those 3.

czalgosz
12-20-2001, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Maybe you're right, I bet the Yanks and A's are shaking in their boots when they hear the name Todd Ritchie.

Well, it's not like there's a huge line of big-name pitchers beating on the door of Comiskey Park, demanding to get in. The Mariners won last season without a single pitcher that a casual fan would recognize. I don't think that anyone would think that Todd Ritchie was supposed to be a savior, in any case. But combined with the other names returning from the DL, Ritchie will be a nice addition, I think.

Remember that the 2001 White Sox won 83 games with an assemblage of AAA players and castoffs from other teams. With the addition of some quality guys who spent 2001 on the DL, this team will be good. That said, I still think the Sox should have made an offer to David Wells. It certainly couldn't hurt...

kermittheefrog
12-20-2001, 08:54 PM
Sirotka is a good, underrated pitcher. The guy never got the respect he deserved. Would I rather have Parque pitching or Ritchie? I dunno, it's a tossup but Parque is home grown, he was a draft pick, we didn't ahve to give up 3 other pitchers to get him.

Huisj
12-20-2001, 09:59 PM
On the other hand, those 5'10" 160 lb. lefties coming off arm surgery don't scare people much either. I'll almost be shocked if Parque puts together an entire decent season this coming year.

On the other hand, a guy like Garland I think has potential to scare people. He was showing signs of life last year later on when he got in the rotation for good, and when he was on, his sinking stuff looked pretty good. And Buerhle too (duh), if he can change speeds as good as last year, and also have super control again, he wouldn't be a teams favorite pitcher to face in the playoffs either.

Sure, the sox don't have big name guys that instill fear in the hearts of their opponents, but that doesn't mean they can't be winners. I'm not saying they will surely win the world series this year, but a top 3 of Buerhle, Ritchie, and Garland for a playoff series could hang in every bit as good as Sirotka, Parque, and Baldwin in 2000 (as as mentioned before, it certainly wasn't their fault they lost to Seattle). ps, watch out for garland this year.

kermittheefrog
12-20-2001, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
On the other hand, those 5'10" 160 lb. lefties coming off arm surgery don't scare people much either. I'll almost be shocked if Parque puts together an entire decent season this coming year.

On the other hand, a guy like Garland I think has potential to scare people. He was showing signs of life last year later on when he got in the rotation for good, and when he was on, his sinking stuff looked pretty good. And Buerhle too (duh), if he can change speeds as good as last year, and also have super control again, he wouldn't be a teams favorite pitcher to face in the playoffs either.

Sure, the sox don't have big name guys that instill fear in the hearts of their opponents, but that doesn't mean they can't be winners. I'm not saying they will surely win the world series this year, but a top 3 of Buerhle, Ritchie, and Garland for a playoff series could hang in every bit as good as Sirotka, Parque, and Baldwin in 2000 (as as mentioned before, it certainly wasn't their fault they lost to Seattle). ps, watch out for garland this year.

I don't think you guys get what I'm saying. I'm not upset because we don't have enough star power I'm upset because we don't have enough talent power.

czalgosz
12-20-2001, 10:34 PM
Kermit, I'm not ripping on you here, I really do respect your opinion, but I'm curious. Let's say you are Ken Williams, and JR has expressly forbidden you to pursue Free Agents. You must come up with the best pitcher you can in a trade. Who would you go after, and who would you offer to get them? Or would you stand pat? And keep salary in consideration, JR will fire you if you get a guy who's too expensive!

danman31
12-20-2001, 10:37 PM
dougs78: I think you had the wrong article in your link. HERE (http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1298646.html) is the story I think you meant to put in the link.

I think it's great Cleveland might not win the division, or even be in contention. If we don't win it in 2002, at least Cleveland won't win it. Minnesota isn't much better though.

kermittheefrog
12-20-2001, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Kermit, I'm not ripping on you here, I really do respect your opinion, but I'm curious. Let's say you are Ken Williams, and JR has expressly forbidden you to pursue Free Agents. You must come up with the best pitcher you can in a trade. Who would you go after, and who would you offer to get them? Or would you stand pat? And keep salary in consideration, JR will fire you if you get a guy who's too expensive!

Well earlier this offseason the Dodgers acquired Omar Daal for peanuts. It's not like Ritchie has been a whole lot better than him over the last couple years. I don't really think standing pat would be a bad idea at all. I think acquiring Ritchie this year, like acquiring Wells last year was about getting a name that been around rather than trusting his own guys. Equally viable an option would be giving a guy who hasn't gotten a shot a chance. That's really why Ritchie is with us right now, the Pirates gave him a chance and he came through.

Woodard is out there, he had some good seasons with the Brew Crew. Brian Rose is out there, Jared Fernandez is knuckleballer that could be given a chance. Willie Banks and Rigo Beltran pitched fabulously in AAA last year. Banks even pitched well for the Red Sox in the majors. All of these guys could be had for nothing or next to nothing. Instead of trading away three pitchers and handing mediocre Todd Ritchie Kenny could make a few minor deals or invite a couple guys like I mentioned to spring let them try out for spot and make our own Todd Ritchie. I think if you're going to trade significant talent (and the same applies for signing free agents) it better be someone good joining your team. Not someone mediocre that you think is a little more cost and performance certain. Kenny doesn't take risks with guys like Shue did, he goes after the guys that are making money because they've proved they can be average.

The Yanks win because they have more money than anyone else. The A's win because they are risk takers and give guys like Cory Lidle and Gil Heredia a chance. Unless the Sox start spending Yankees money they need to be a little more like the A's and find useful players like Todd Ritchie cheap and pay real money or real talent for the really good ones.

czalgosz
12-20-2001, 11:06 PM
Okay, I'll buy that... but it sounds like the opposite of what you were saying earlier. It sounded like you wanted a pitcher that would make opposing teams scared.

But, you're right. I'm always trying to put the best face on things, but if I was GM I would be running things a lot differently than KW is...

kermittheefrog
12-20-2001, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Okay, I'll buy that... but it sounds like the opposite of what you were saying earlier. It sounded like you wanted a pitcher that would make opposing teams scared.

But, you're right. I'm always trying to put the best face on things, but if I was GM I would be running things a lot differently than KW is...

I was upset because we gave up too much talent for Ritchie for him to not be a guy who scares the other team.

nut_stock
12-20-2001, 11:34 PM
in regaurds to the "standing pat" post, I agree that it probably would have been Ok. The problem is there is a tremendous amount of fans and MEDIA voicing the need for a veteran starter. JR won't let him buy one so he's gotta do his best to trade for one.

czalgosz
12-20-2001, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I was upset because we gave up too much talent for Ritchie for him to not be a guy who scares the other team.

Right, I get you now, and I agree totally. Ritchie is a fine #3 starter, but we gave up one too many pitchers. If it had just been Lowe and Kip, I would have been happy, but Fogg too?

bjmarte
12-21-2001, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Right, I get you now, and I agree totally. Ritchie is a fine #3 starter, but we gave up one too many pitchers. If it had just been Lowe and Kip, I would have been happy, but Fogg too?

I will definetly second that. If there is anyone to be upset about losing it is Josh Fogg. Kip Wells may get it together at some point but I think we pretty much saw how things were going last season. I never completely understood why everyone got their knickers in a twist over losing Lowe, good pitcher - just not a starter. Josh had at least had potential left in him that we gave up on by trading him when it didn't seem necessary. I'm gonna be steamed if he ends up a solid starter in two years.

I want to go on the record now as hopping on the John Garland bandwagon with Huisj. He is going to be a killer this year.

RedPinStripes
12-21-2001, 01:58 AM
I want to go on the record now as hopping on the John Garland bandwagon with Huisj. He is going to be a killer this year. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm with ya there.


:jon
"Time to kick some ass"

AsInWreck
12-21-2001, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog

The division belongs to the Sox right now. What happens after that is the big deal and no one likes the idea of Todd Ritchie starting game 2 or game 3 of a playoff series.

I'd be glad to see anyone starting game 2 or 3 for the sox in the playoffs. Hopefully garland will develop into the #2 pitcher for the sox during the season, ritchie would make a decent #3.

RichH55
12-22-2001, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by bjmarte


I will definetly second that. If there is anyone to be upset about losing it is Josh Fogg. Kip Wells may get it together at some point but I think we pretty much saw how things were going last season. I never completely understood why everyone got their knickers in a twist over losing Lowe, good pitcher - just not a starter. Josh had at least had potential left in him that we gave up on by trading him when it didn't seem necessary. I'm gonna be steamed if he ends up a solid starter in two years.

I want to go on the record now as hopping on the John Garland bandwagon with Huisj. He is going to be a killer this year.

Well If I could chose a pitcher to keep from that deal it would go:
1. Kip Wells-youngest and best potential in the deal, arm is not the trouble
2. Sean Lowe-proven himself at the major league level and gives you alot of options
3. Josh Fogg- I like Fogg and I'm glad to see him get his shot in Pitt. I dont think he was ever getting that shot here

But I'm with you on the Garland bandwagon

RichH55
12-22-2001, 09:05 AM
In addition Garland making it big would be especially sweet since we flat out stole him off the flubs....and Rob Neyer writes a pretty damn good column...so I'm pleased when he calls out the Indians as that much worse....when the moron does it...its the kiss of death

Huisj
12-23-2001, 10:29 PM
I agree that Neyer has a good column. I've been reading it for a few years now. I don't always agree with everything he says, be he's a smart guy, and a very hard working stat freak, always going and researching everything to back up what he says or explore what someone else has said. I really enjoy his column.

RichH55
12-24-2001, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by Huisj
I agree that Neyer has a good column. I've been reading it for a few years now. I don't always agree with everything he says, be he's a smart guy, and a very hard working stat freak, always going and researching everything to back up what he says or explore what someone else has said. I really enjoy his column.

More power to the stats freaks! He isn't always right, but when you read the Moron and Neyer in the same day it's shocking the difference


:moron
What you want research now? How about you research blowing me! Damn Fans