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View Full Version : Uribe in the 2 Hole?....El Duque starting?


sox230
12-01-2005, 11:55 PM
Ozzie said that the 5th starter's spot is El Duque's to lose. Was McCarthy not a stud down the stretch last year? it should be his to lose, this veteran over rookie crap shouldn't matter. Furthermore, I do not understand why we are so focused on moving Iguchi down from the two spot. He can lay down the bunt, has some speed, hits for average, and has some power. Tell me why we need to see more of Gooch's power if we hit 200 HR's last year plus Thome? And then to even entertain the thought of Uribe hitting 2nd? The most free-swinging, strikeout prone, bad bunter, .250 at best hitter? I love Ozzie's in game moves and managerial style, but this completely perplexes me. :?:

Hitmen77
12-02-2005, 12:01 AM
I believe you are referring to this article which was published this evening on the Trib's website:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-051201sox,1,106009.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed

Soxfan35
12-02-2005, 12:45 AM
I think a lot of the talk about Iguchi moving down stems from Iguchi himself. he never out right complained about it hitting there, but with some of the comments he(orhis translator) made seems like he felt he could put up better numbers without having to move pods over all the time. I think Ozzie knows it and wants to help him out, but I know Ozzie won't sacrifice the team just to make Iguchi happy. But being the great team player that he is, he'll suck it up and help go for the repeat.

knocko94
12-02-2005, 12:55 AM
I would be supremely disappointed if Hernandez is in the starting rotation in lieu of McCarthy.

Banix12
12-02-2005, 12:58 AM
I just think Ozzie is doing some sportswriters a solid and giving them some column material.

Anyway, certainly if the sox plan on keeping Hernandez for next season the easiest thing to do as far as keeping both is putting him in the rotation and keeping McCarthy around as an emergency starter. The sox have McCarthy and there certainly can be a worry about a young pitcher throwing the the whole season. However the best thing for the team in mine and many of our opinions is to start McCarthy.

Though this could very well just be Ozzie managing the team during the offseason, saying to Hernandez that we still want you back and you have to come in and fight off McCarthy and saying to McCarthy that you may be a great talent but you still haven't earned anything so keep working harder. Competition can breed success.

sullythered
12-02-2005, 01:24 AM
It is still early December. Brandon is very young, and despite his dominance down the stretch, I think his upcoming spring performance will go a long way in determining his status for '06.

MERPER
12-02-2005, 02:14 AM
First and foremost, Ozzie can do whatever he wishes for a long time after what he has just brought this franchise....

That being said, I think Ozzie is pretty wise and knows how to fuel his players.... Him and KW are on the same page and KW didn't stand pat this offseason, hew as proactive....

I think these comments are nothing more than Ozzie trying to keep his guys on the edge and thinking about what they should do come spring training..

Iguchi= show some more power
Uribe= show more plate discipline
McCarthy= better not think the spot is his, better come to spring training firing
El Duque= stay happy, you'll get every opportunity...(then when he loses the spot Ozzie offers him the bullpen and he obliges)

Anderson/Owens= Saying not to count on a ton from Anderson but that he really likes Owens... we're gonna have a battle on our hands in spring training because Pierre isn't happening

Plain and simple, Ozzie doesn't want his troops getting complacent in the offseason, they want to win again so he is going to force them to come into spring training ready to compete for vital spots on this team....

Ozzie... the genius... :cool:

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 07:59 AM
First and foremost, Ozzie can do whatever he wishes for a long time after what he has just brought this franchise....

That being said, I think Ozzie is pretty wise and knows how to fuel his players.... Him and KW are on the same page and KW didn't stand pat this offseason, hew as proactive....

I think these comments are nothing more than Ozzie trying to keep his guys on the edge and thinking about what they should do come spring training..

Iguchi= show some more power
Uribe= show more plate discipline
McCarthy= better not think the spot is his, better come to spring training firing
El Duque= stay happy, you'll get every opportunity...(then when he loses the spot Ozzie offers him the bullpen and he obliges)

Anderson/Owens= Saying not to count on a ton from Anderson but that he really likes Owens... we're gonna have a battle on our hands in spring training because Pierre isn't happening

Plain and simple, Ozzie doesn't want his troops getting complacent in the offseason, they want to win again so he is going to force them to come into spring training ready to compete for vital spots on this team....

Ozzie... the genius... :cool:

Borchard....you really have to be player of the camp or sayonara to the Sox

Crede...we are not convinced you are healthy and we detest your agent, so donīt get too comfortable over there

Of course, it could be posturing by KW to drive up the trade value of El Duque...psychologically, if the team thinks of him as a starter in the offseason and not a reliever, he could be worth more in perceived value because some GM might think if he wants El Duque over McCarthy after the last 10 starts Brandon made, maybe I should take a chance on him. Obviously, KW is not going to deal Brandon...plus, thereīs the psychological side of pushing McCarthy, and the fact that he was a little upset he had to watch the entire playoffs from the bench after carrying the team with Contreras down the stretch.

oeo
12-02-2005, 08:07 AM
Ozzie said that the 5th starter's spot is El Duque's to lose. Was McCarthy not a stud down the stretch last year? it should be his to lose, this veteran over rookie crap shouldn't matter. Furthermore, I do not understand why we are so focused on moving Iguchi down from the two spot. He can lay down the bunt, has some speed, hits for average, and has some power. Tell me why we need to see more of Gooch's power if we hit 200 HR's last year plus Thome? And then to even entertain the thought of Uribe hitting 2nd? The most free-swinging, strikeout prone, bad bunter, .250 at best hitter? I love Ozzie's in game moves and managerial style, but this completely perplexes me. :?:

It's not all about homeruns, it's producing runs as well. We have a run producer in Iguchi, why not use him where he can do it, if we have someone for the #2 spot. We won a lot of one-run games last year, and we can't just hope we're going to do it again (I'm not saying we can't...those games can go either way though). We'll be putting up more runs this year, and with our pitching, look out.

kevin57
12-02-2005, 08:10 AM
These are interesting takes on Ozzie's comments, and I agree that after a WS victory, Ozzie deserves more than the benefit of the doubt.

That said, come Spring, 2006, I'd want to see BMac as a starter and El Duque in the place where his age and talent has now led him...strong, long relief.

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 08:16 AM
It's not all about homeruns, it's producing runs as well. We have a run producer in Iguchi, why not use him where he can do it, if we have someone for the #2 spot. We won a lot of one-run games last year, and we can't just hope we're going to do it again (I'm not saying we can't...those games can go either way though). We'll be putting up more runs this year, and with our pitching, look out.

I could see if Iguchi was going to be a FA after next season, but the White Sox control his rights for two more seasons, if they want him in 2007...hence, the whole selfish, have to put up numbers for a big contract that he didnīt get the first time philosophy is not relevant here. And OG wouldnīt care, and would not want Iguchi if he was the Bonds-Ramirez type of player. Baseball people appreciate the quiet subtleties of his game, and Iguchi will get plenty of money if he continues to improve on his rookie season, from the White Sox or another team.

I think that itīs more a matter of letting Iguchi have the opportunity to show off another facet of him game...in terms of having him bat lower in the order.

I still think that Uribe will hit more homers than Iguchi in 2006.

oeo
12-02-2005, 08:17 AM
These are interesting takes on Ozzie's comments, and I agree that after a WS victory, Ozzie deserves more than the benefit of the doubt.

That said, come Spring, 2006, I'd want to see BMac as a starter and El Duque in the place where his age and talent has now led him...strong, long relief.

Like someone else said, you don't want McCarthy coming in thinking he has the job already. Make him show you that he's got it, competition does wonders. McCarthy will be starting by the regular season, I'm sure. Ozzie knows what he's doing.

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 08:24 AM
Like someone else said, you don't want McCarthy coming in thinking he has the job already. Make him show you that he's got it, competition does wonders. McCarthy will be starting by the regular season, I'm sure. Ozzie knows what he's doing.

The other strong possibility is that the team is unhappy with Garland and they want to show him heīs expendable...intimating that they would be content to move into 2006 with McCarthy and El Duque. I also think they would prefer to keep El Duque together with Contreras...they just developed a great chemistry and camaraderie with OG, Uribe, Timo, Casanova, etc., as the season wore on.

Frater Perdurabo
12-02-2005, 09:12 AM
Assuming they don't trade Garland, he'll be back with the Sox next year, perhaps after an unhappy arbitration experience.

Since Garcia plans to pitch in the World Baseball Classic (or whatever it's called; I'm too lazy to look again), perhaps it might not be a bad idea to go with a six-man rotation to start the year. Or, perhaps go with a standard five-man rotation, but skip everyone at least once by letting El Duque pitch for each. This is how it could go:

First turn through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Garcia, BMac
Second turn through rotation: El Duque, Contreras, Garland, Garcia, BMac
Third turn through rotation: Buehrle, El Duque, Garland, Garcia, BMac
Fourth turn through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, El Duque, Garcia, BMac
Fifth turn through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, El Duque, BMac
Sixth turn through rotation: Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Garcia, El Duque

This let's everyone skip a start approximately once per month while staying on a normal five-day rotation, while El Duque gets to pitch once every six days and gets skipped once monthly.

In any case, the Sox ought to tread very carefully with Garcia and Contreras, particularly early in the 2006 season. They logged a lot of innings in 2005 and aren't soft-tossers like Buehrle and Garland.

mccoydp
12-02-2005, 09:58 AM
I hope Ozzie isn't being serious about El Duque...he adds some value to the pen, but, IMHO, he's lost his effectiveness as a starter.
But, knowing Ozzie, this is all probably a red herring.

oeo
12-02-2005, 10:32 AM
I could see if Iguchi was going to be a FA after next season, but the White Sox control his rights for two more seasons, if they want him in 2007...hence, the whole selfish, have to put up numbers for a big contract that he didnīt get the first time philosophy is not relevant here. And OG wouldnīt care, and would not want Iguchi if he was the Bonds-Ramirez type of player. Baseball people appreciate the quiet subtleties of his game, and Iguchi will get plenty of money if he continues to improve on his rookie season, from the White Sox or another team.

I think that itīs more a matter of letting Iguchi have the opportunity to show off another facet of him game...in terms of having him bat lower in the order.

I still think that Uribe will hit more homers than Iguchi in 2006.

I never said anything about him becoming a free agent after this season. All I said was he is not a natural #2 hitter, he produced runs instead of manufacturing them in Japan. When Uribe can probably do the same thing as Iguchi (stats are similar), why not have another run producer?

My post had nothing to do with free agency, but when you say Iguchi wants to show another facet of his game...that sounds more like show off all your skills before free agency.

And I disagree on the homeruns, I don't think it's a stretch to say that he can hit 25 next year.

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 11:01 AM
I never said anything about him becoming a free agent after this season. All I said was he is not a natural #2 hitter, he produced runs instead of manufacturing them in Japan. When Uribe can probably do the same thing as Iguchi (stats are similar), why not have another run producer?

My post had nothing to do with free agency, but when you say Iguchi wants to show another facet of his game...that sounds more like show off all your skills before free agency.

And I disagree on the homeruns, I don't think it's a stretch to say that he can hit 25 next year.

It makes sense, if it makes Uribe become a more disciplined hitter. That is, of course, a big if.

Uribe and Iguchi are not going to get more than 12-15 steals, so the speed factor is pretty similar.

When you compare their stats from this year (and look at what Uribe did for half of 2004), itīs almost impossible to tell them apart. Despite his offensive struggles, Juan managed to come up with almost 20 more RBIīs than AJ Pierzynski despite being outhomered.

Actually, Uribe makes a little bit better contact...if he could only learn to take more walks. As they say about the Dominicans, they donīt walk their way off their island, they hit their way off...see Guerrero, Vladimir, for a prime example.

Itīs the reason there are not a plentitude of Dominican number two hitters...Luis Castillo is one of the few that come to mind.

daveeym
12-02-2005, 11:13 AM
First and foremost, Ozzie can do whatever he wishes for a long time after what he has just brought this franchise....

That being said, I think Ozzie is pretty wise and knows how to fuel his players.... Him and KW are on the same page and KW didn't stand pat this offseason, hew as proactive....

I think these comments are nothing more than Ozzie trying to keep his guys on the edge and thinking about what they should do come spring training..

Iguchi= show some more power
Uribe= show more plate discipline
McCarthy= better not think the spot is his, better come to spring training firing
El Duque= stay happy, you'll get every opportunity...(then when he loses the spot Ozzie offers him the bullpen and he obliges)

Anderson/Owens= Saying not to count on a ton from Anderson but that he really likes Owens... we're gonna have a battle on our hands in spring training because Pierre isn't happening

Plain and simple, Ozzie doesn't want his troops getting complacent in the offseason, they want to win again so he is going to force them to come into spring training ready to compete for vital spots on this team....

Ozzie... the genius... :cool: That does about sum it up. However, I won't say that's genius, that's just smart basic coaching. You never write someone off and always let your guys compete over questionable spots.

Through competition you generally get better performance from all involved. The loser is generally less pissed and still gets significant PT and if necessary, makes for an easier trade since you could go with either guy and both have some solid market value.

SOecks
12-02-2005, 11:16 AM
It makes sense, if it makes Uribe become a more disciplined hitter. That is, of course, a big if.

Uribe and Iguchi are not going to get more than 12-15 steals, so the speed factor is pretty similar.

When you compare their stats from this year (and look at what Uribe did for half of 2004), itīs almost impossible to tell them apart. Despite his offensive struggles, Juan managed to come up with almost 20 more RBIīs than AJ Pierzynski despite being outhomered.

Actually, Uribe makes a little bit better contact...if he could only learn to take more walks. As they say about the Dominicans, they donīt walk their way off their island, they hit their way off...see Guerrero, Vladimir, for a prime example.

Itīs the reason there are not a plentitude of Dominican number two hitters...Luis Castillo is one of the few that come to mind.

This is exactly what I've been thinking. If you look at the last couple months of last season though I think you'd see a big difference in Uribe's patience at the plate. He stopped swinging at the high strikes all the time and actually started taking some walks and having quality at bats. If that wasn't a fluke and something he worked for intentionally I am comfortable with him in the 2 spot provided he continues to improve. Plus he has a whole preseason with his hitting coach to get better and see if he can do it.

nccwsfan
12-02-2005, 11:20 AM
This is most likely motivation for El Duque and McCarthy. oeo said it best, you don't want to have McCarthy assume the job is his and then have a poor Spring showing. This should hopefully light the fire under him to do his best. Same for El Duque- he might be motivated enough to come in and have a tremendous March...this is very similar to the CF opening.

I still say if there's any reasonable talent for El Duque make the move, but otherwise 6 studs in a 5 man rotation ain't bad.

soxfan1965
12-02-2005, 11:33 AM
I could see if Iguchi was going to be a FA after next season, but the White Sox control his rights for two more seasons, if they want him in 2007...hence, the whole selfish, have to put up numbers for a big contract that he didnīt get the first time philosophy is not relevant here. And OG wouldnīt care, and would not want Iguchi if he was the Bonds-Ramirez type of player. Baseball people appreciate the quiet subtleties of his game, and Iguchi will get plenty of money if he continues to improve on his rookie season, from the White Sox or another team.

I think that itīs more a matter of letting Iguchi have the opportunity to show off another facet of him game...in terms of having him bat lower in the order.

I still think that Uribe will hit more homers than Iguchi in 2006.

Ozzie seems complimentary to players even when he sees something wrong or has to make a move. When Shingo was faultering, he said that he had to get back his confidence but what he was really saying is to throw strikes and get guys out or you don't close. With Iguchi, he calls him his MVP for doing the little things well--which he does--and how he can showcase his power lower in the lineup--but I think may be disappointed with Iguchi's strikeouts (which may be a rookie thing), batting with men on base, and his WS performance at the plate. Uribe and Iguchi have similar offensive stats, and with Juan's lower strikeouts I think Ozzie is hoping he will go a step further and be selective like Pods is, and do the little things like Iguchi did.

I give Ozzie credit for this--for protecting faultering guys--a far cry for how he was blunt to the press about Big Frank having a negative attitude or Big Frank calling the shots about when/how he was going to play. I thought this was how Ozzie was going to handle his players. Ozzie does what he has to do when there's a problem but he tries to "save face" for the affected guys.

If Iguchi wants more money, I don't blame him when you see the big contracts given recently around MLB for what I consider mediocrity at best, or one good recent year, mainly in relief pitching.

ChiSoxlukes
12-02-2005, 12:25 PM
The fifth starter spot is defiantly El Duque's spot to lose IMO. Yes, BMac showed brilliance down the stretch but El Duque still has a good year or two left. I would feel much more comfortable with him in there until he proves that he can't handle it.

Randar68
12-02-2005, 12:37 PM
Like someone else said, you don't want McCarthy coming in thinking he has the job already. Make him show you that he's got it, competition does wonders. McCarthy will be starting by the regular season, I'm sure. Ozzie knows what he's doing.
At the same time, they know McCarthy's make-up, and he's not the kind of guy to sit on his laurels. McCarthy could be Contreras-like in his success in 2006, and the best you could hope for out of El Duque is 175 innings with a 4.50 ERA and not keeling over ont he mound.

This is like the talk of asking Frank to be ready to bunt...

slavko
12-02-2005, 12:55 PM
Uribe's turnaround re:patience at the plate came after Greg Walker brought in Walt Hriniak to work with him. He still doesn't have enough discipline with the bat to hit second, IMHO.

Duque still a starter? Psychology from a very smart manager. For the benefit of both him and BMac.

TheKittle
12-02-2005, 03:29 PM
I'm not worried about something said or written in Dec. But if Iggy isn't batting second when the season starts I'll be concerned until whoever is batting second shows he can do what Iggy did in 05.

I would try and find a cheap FA pitcher, (Mays from the Twins?) to add competition for Mac and El Duque. El Duque will go on the DL or miss a start.

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 03:43 PM
I'm not worried about something said or written in Dec. But if Iggy isn't batting second when the season starts I'll be concerned until whoever is batting second shows he can do what Iggy did in 05.

I would try and find a cheap FA pitcher, (Mays from the Twins?) to add competition for Mac and El Duque. El Duque will go on the DL or miss a start.

If the market for pitchers is as desperate as everyone claims, we would not be able to get Mays to come in with a split major-minor contract, because someone will give him a shot at the 5th starters spot...not have him coming in as the 7th option in the starting pitching rotation.

If you were Mays, why would you even consider it? The best reason for the White Sox is to keep him from pitching against us...but we have handled him pretty well the last couple of seasons, after Mays came back from his injury and wasnt the same pitcher.

doublem23
12-02-2005, 03:55 PM
When any one of you shows me your World Series ring, I'll take your opinions on how to run a baseball team as seriously as Ozzie's

:ozzie
I know what the **** I'm doing.

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 03:58 PM
When any one of you shows me your World Series ring, I'll take your opinions on how to run a baseball team as seriously as Ozzie's

:ozzie
I know what the **** I'm doing.

Obviously, but why even bother posting on a message board when you know that it will just make you upset? Thats why message boards are fun...everyone can have an opinion, not always an interesting or well-informed one, but an opinion nonetheless. Its probably one of the reasons OG enjoyed reading his e-mails throughout the season, to get a perspective that he might have missed from some random fan in Podunk (Iowa, WV, Arkansas...or Colombia, South America, where I am currently typing from).