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richb2
12-01-2005, 10:34 PM
I have not always liked Jerry over the years and thought he really did some real stupid things, but I have to give the man credit for last year and this year. I am very greatfull for last year and very excited for next year because it looks like Jerry wants to bring another championship home. I thought I would never say this, but he is the best owner in baseball.

kittle42
12-01-2005, 10:37 PM
Try "you're."

Thank you.

Whoops - almost missed the phonetically spelled "greatfull."

koch44
12-01-2005, 10:42 PM
Try "you're."

Thank you.

Whoops - almost missed the phonetically spelled "greatfull."

:hawk

I luv it when you analyze.

:)

JUribe1989
12-01-2005, 10:52 PM
He's the best owner in sports.

chisox77
12-01-2005, 11:45 PM
Whether folks like to admit it or not, Jerry Reinsdorf is the best owner in the history of Chicago Sports. There have been seven total championship won under his watch (six with the Bulls, and now one with the Sox). His teams now have the distinct honor of winning the top prize in two major sports. That's a pretty impressive feat.

Nellie_Fox
12-02-2005, 12:04 AM
Try "you're."

Thank you.

Whoops - almost missed the phonetically spelled "greatfull."You beat me to it. Also, there should be a comma after "this", not a period. Either that, or capitalize and don't start the next sentence with "but."

ChiSoxLifer
12-02-2005, 01:12 AM
Whether folks like to admit it or not, Jerry Reinsdorf is the best owner in the history of Chicago Sports. There have been seven total championship won under his watch (six with the Bulls, and now one with the Sox). His teams now have the distinct honor of winning the top prize in two major sports. That's a pretty impressive feat.

Wish there was a way he could buy the Bears.

MUsoxfan
12-02-2005, 01:34 AM
How one White Sox championship changes everything:rolleyes: He's always been a good owner IMO

IlliniSox4Life
12-02-2005, 01:57 AM
Wish there was a way he could buy the Bears.

Is Illini Football up for sale?

kevin57
12-02-2005, 07:17 AM
Some will probably slay me for making this comparison, but I think that Frank and Jerry are similar in more ways than being a part of the same organization. Both have made their mistakes, certainly PR-type mistakes. Both have done more for Chicago than most sports figures in this town and have been less appreciated than others who did not deserve it.

This town does have a way of "devouring" its more successful owners and idolizing those who accomplished nothing. (Can anyone say PK Wrigley?)

Blancos Medias
12-02-2005, 07:59 AM
Lord knows the Blackhawks could use new ownership. It's time for Wirtz to do what he does best, whatever that is.

Sorry for the hijack, Jerry would be a definite upgrade as owner of the Hawks, too.

Steelrod
12-02-2005, 08:00 AM
Some will probably slay me for making this comparison, but I think that Frank and Jerry are similar in more ways than being a part of the same organization. Both have made their mistakes, certainly PR-type mistakes. Both have done more for Chicago than most sports figures in this town and have been less appreciated than others who did not deserve it.

This town does have a way of "devouring" its more successful owners and idolizing those who accomplished nothing. (Can anyone say PK Wrigley?)
This ownership group is the second longest owner in Sox history. Team has been in the hunt for the most part of the 25 years. 4 division champs. Only one series, but then again only one team can win it! 30 teams in the league. You can look at the numbers to make any opinion fit, but on balance, its kinda hard to keep picking on JR. He's ahead of the game!

miker
12-02-2005, 08:08 AM
Is Illini Football up for sale?
No more or less than any other Division I program...

Hangar18
12-02-2005, 08:09 AM
Jerry Reinsdorf has committed some incredibly bad PR Blunders during his tenure at SOX owner, but he deserves KUDOS right now for not breaking this team up and swallowing his pride and paying Paulie to stay. We have a good shot at not only making the playoffs again next year, but a shot at repeating if all things work in our favor. Weve NEVER been in this position before and Uncle Jerry is showing the best fanbase in baseball that he truly wants to WIN AGAIN.
Thank You Jerry

miker
12-02-2005, 08:09 AM
Lord knows the Blackhawks could use new ownership. It's time for Wirtz to do what he does best, whatever that is.
Apparently Dollar Bill's talents include: drinking, spending time on his yacht and destroying professional hockey in Chicago.

34 Inch Stick
12-02-2005, 08:28 AM
Whether folks like to admit it or not, Jerry Reinsdorf is the best owner in the history of Chicago Sports.

Wow! George Halas, one of the creators of the league, an innovator of the game and a multiple time champion is slowly digging his way up from hell to come after you for that comment.

soxinem1
12-02-2005, 02:35 PM
Well, I have to realize the facts, and reinsdorf has definitely jumped up a few notches in my book. No owner is perfect, no one is perfect. I guess it's time to bury some of these hatchets, anyway...

If we could have him now get the Bears and especially Blackhawks we could really upgrade a lot.

Like someone else already said, we need to face the realization that JR's group has accomplished a lot more in this town that a certain other team, and with by far a lot more criticism.

GO WHITE SOX!

fquaye149
12-02-2005, 03:55 PM
swallowing his pride and paying Paulie to stay=

WOW hangar - your backhands put Pete Sampras to shame.

fquaye149
12-02-2005, 03:58 PM
Oh, and I forgot to say:

The thread title is grammatically correct in this context.

:Jerry:
"Hey Richb2, whose 'the best'?"

:Richb2:
"Jerry Reinsdorf, your 'the best'!"

I don't have any clue what a "the best" is however, so please don't ask me.

Palehose13
12-02-2005, 04:02 PM
Try "you're."

Thank you.

Whoops - almost missed the phonetically spelled "greatfull."

I just couldn't let a thread title stay that way. However, I am not going to edit his post.

slavko
12-02-2005, 05:08 PM
Wow! George Halas, one of the creators of the league, an innovator of the game and a multiple time champion is slowly digging his way up from hell to come after you for that comment.

He also invented "cheap." Ask Butkus or any of the old timers. BTW, JR did try to buy into the Bears and was rejected by the McCaskey's, but that's a long story.

jerry myers
12-02-2005, 05:52 PM
Is Illini Football up for sale?wish he could buy the bears:smile:thats funny. im happy for jerry, i see a diffrent jerry than the one i thought i knew. i like this one. and he is chicagos best ever.

Nellie_Fox
12-03-2005, 12:21 AM
He also invented "cheap." Ask Butkus or any of the old timers. BTW, JR did try to buy into the Bears and was rejected by the McCaskey's, but that's a long story.Wasn't it Ditka (when he was a player, not coach) who said that Halas threw nickels around like they were manhole covers?

areilly
12-03-2005, 02:15 PM
I'm probably going to get destroyed for disagreeing with everyone, but I can't say I'm over a lot of the things JR has been involved in prior to this year. Anyone remember the '94 strike? Repeated threats to move the team (Schaumburg? Come on Jerry!)? Blackmailing the city into building the new stadium for him? Running how many great players and fan favorites out of town? Moving the Sox to cable TV?

Winning the WS was/is sweeter than anything (including the hell of a job JR did with the Bulls), but it'll be a while before I can agree with this thread's sentiment.

I'd be more inclined to give the nod to KW and Ozzie, seeing as how they built the 2005 team despite JR's direction and management, not because of it.

On the other hand...thanks for ponying up to keep Paulie. You have made this fan a happy man. :D:

Fenway
12-03-2005, 02:26 PM
JR has


kept the team together
has not raised ticket prices to obscene levels
let Kenny and Ozzie do their jobs
Sure helps erase some of the questionable things he has done

slavko
12-03-2005, 02:29 PM
Wasn't it Ditka (when he was a player, not coach) who said that Halas threw nickels around like they were manhole covers?

Could have been. Or Butkus or Obradovich, I can't recall.

soxrme
12-04-2005, 08:45 AM
Could have been. Or Butkus or Obradovich, I can't recall.
It was Ditka and he was traded right after. We never had a big time quarterback because Halas did not want to pay the big money. He was not the loveable Papa Bear the media makes him out to be now. He was despised by many of his players and the media. Wirtz and his father are both jokes who will rip off fans forever. JR is a guy who I will still not forgive for the strike, that was our best team in my memory.

Steelrod
12-04-2005, 10:35 AM
I'm probably going to get destroyed for disagreeing with everyone, but I can't say I'm over a lot of the things JR has been involved in prior to this year. Anyone remember the '94 strike? Repeated threats to move the team (Schaumburg? Come on Jerry!)? Blackmailing the city into building the new stadium for him? Running how many great players and fan favorites out of town? Moving the Sox to cable TV?

Winning the WS was/is sweeter than anything (including the hell of a job JR did with the Bulls), but it'll be a while before I can agree with this thread's sentiment.

I'd be more inclined to give the nod to KW and Ozzie, seeing as how they built the 2005 team despite JR's direction and management, not because of it.

On the other hand...thanks for ponying up to keep Paulie. You have made this fan a happy man. :D:
WOW-lighten up.
BTW Addison, not Schaumburg (and he bought the land)
Love the stadium (and how many other cities own them)
From WGN, where not many games were broadcast, remember UHF?
By fan favorites, I assume you mean FISK! Do you remember how many other teams fought to get him when he was released?

BTW--Who hired Kenny? and OZZIE?.. and wasn't EVERYONE pissed it wasn't boy genius Dan Evans? And didn't most of us think hiring Ozzie was a mistake?

While were on the subject, you forgot to bring up the WHITE FLAG TRADE, which he's still getting ripped for. I believe it was the best trade the Sox have made in my lifetime, but go figure!

areilly
12-04-2005, 11:43 AM
By fan favorites, I assume you mean FISK! Do you remember how many other teams fought to get him when he was released?


By fan favorites I mean Robin Ventura, Jack McDowell, Tony LaRussa, Magglio Ordonez, Roberto Hernandez, Ozzie Guillen, Carlton Fisk, Alex Fernandez, to name a few.

samram
12-04-2005, 12:07 PM
By fan favorites I mean Robin Ventura, Jack McDowell, Tony LaRussa, Magglio Ordonez, Roberto Hernandez, Ozzie Guillen, Carlton Fisk, Alex Fernandez, to name a few.

Not one of those guys was overly productive after leaving here, save LaRussa, who's a manager. Ventura had one good season (1999?) after leaving. Hernandez was ok, but overpaid by TB. The rest of them, except for Maggs, did almost nothing after leaving. And get over Maggs, please. Anyone who bothered to pay attention knows what the story there was. Sentiment gets you nothing in sports. See: Cubs, Chicago.

Steelrod
12-04-2005, 12:15 PM
Not one of those guys was overly productive after leaving here, save LaRussa, who's a manager. Ventura had one good season (1999?) after leaving. Hernandez was ok, but overpaid by TB. The rest of them, except for Maggs, did almost nothing after leaving. And get over Maggs, please. Anyone who bothered to pay attention knows what the story there was. Sentiment gets you nothing in sports. See: Cubs, Chicago.
Kinda makes you wonder if GM's kept fan favorites, what kind of team they would have? For that matter, would they have a job? FWIW, Reinsdorf repediately has said getting rid of LaRussa was his worst mistake. I believe the two of them have remained friends to this day!

DC Sox Fan
12-04-2005, 01:19 PM
I love being sel... sorry, celebrated!
:reinsy

Your thoughts...

buehrle4cy05
12-04-2005, 01:45 PM
:moron

"Wow, you guys are all idiots. Everybody knows Reinsdorf doesn't spend enough money...what? They signed Konerko for how much? Ah ****, time to move on to another town."

TheDarkGundam
12-04-2005, 02:02 PM
I love being sel... sorry, celebrated!
:reinsy

Your thoughts...
A reference to the "ultimate troll mega thread"? Hilarious :D:

wassagstdu
12-04-2005, 07:27 PM
I never really understood the intensity of the criticism of Reinsdorf here. I thought he was willing to spend money (Albert Belle) but didn't think anyone knew how to spend it. Now he can see that KW and Ozzie know how and things are different.

I have been surprised by the contrasting praise for Bill Veeck, who accomplished absolutely nothing for the Sox. He inherited a team built by Frank Lane and previous ownership, took credit for the pennant and proceeded to show that he had no idea what to do with all the talent in the organization he bought. He kept the Sox from being moved out of Chicago. Think about the recent parade and tell me how pathetic that is as a standard of ownership success. Just a reflection of how low our expectations have been -- thanks in good part to Veeck's ownership.

.

santo=dorf
12-04-2005, 07:31 PM
A reference to the "ultimate troll mega thread"? Hilarious :D:

No, WTE. (see sig)

TheDarkGundam
12-04-2005, 07:53 PM
No, WTE. (see sig)
That's the one. I knew it was somebody's sig.

antitwins13
12-04-2005, 07:56 PM
He's the best owner in sports.


I'm a huge Chicago homer, but even I wouldn't go that far.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2005, 09:33 PM
Wassag:

Part of the reason for Veeck's appeal is that he came across as 'the patron saint of the common fan...' Part of that is true, part of that was contrived.

Regarding Uncle Jerry even I have given him credit for 15 winning seasons, four post season appearances and now (finally) a World series title. But history also records that he was one of the architects of the collusion era of the mid 80's which wound up costing MLB dearly in terms of damages, he extorted a new stadium at the risk of moving a franchise that was a charter member of the American League, tried to break the player's union at the expense of his own team in 1994 and gave approval to the White Flag Trade in 1997 which made the franchise the laughing stock of baseball and demolished attendence for years (including 2000) without getting any major long term benefits from it regarding the player's received in trade. (Foulke was the only one to ever make the All Star team for example and he did that when he left the Sox...)

Lip

FarWestChicago
12-04-2005, 09:43 PM
Wassag:

Part of the reason for Veeck's appeal is that he came across as 'the patron saint of the common fan...' Part of that is true, part of that was contrived.

Regarding Uncle Jerry even I have given him credit for 15 winning seasons, four post season appearances and now (finally) a World series title. But history also records that he was one of the architects of the collusion era of the mid 80's which wound up costing MLB dearly in terms of damages, he extorted a new stadium at the risk of moving a franchise that was a charter member of the American League, tried to break the player's union at the expense of his own team in 1994 and gave approval to the White Flag Trade in 1997 which made the franchise the laughing stock of baseball and demolished attendence for years (including 2000) without getting any major long term benefits from it regarding the player's received in trade. (Foulke was the only one to ever make the All Star team for example and he did that when he left the Sox...)

LipReinsy - 7 Chicago World Championships

Lip - 1 World Championship of Dark Clouds

:reinsy

Blow it out your ass, Lip.

gowhitesox
12-04-2005, 10:01 PM
To see Bud Selig, hand Jerry the World Series trophy was a wonderful site. He made some mistakes over the years but when he hired Kenny Williams he knew what he was doing.

Nellie_Fox
12-05-2005, 01:11 AM
Love the stadium (and how many other cities own them)This is the second reference in this thread to the idea that the City of Chicago built and owns the park. They didn't, and they don't. The State of Illinois built it, and the Illinois Sports Facilities Authority owns it.

Are you guys too young to remember Governor "Big Jim" Thompson stopping the clock in the legislature so that the midnight deadline wouldn't happen and he could continue strong-arming legislators to approve the park?

100 Year Itch
12-05-2005, 02:12 AM
His teams now have the distinct honor of winning the top prize in two major sports. That's a pretty impressive feat.

So is Reinsdorf officially a two sport star? Athletes competing professionally in two major sports receive that distinction -- has JR set the bar for owners, or managing-partners, or whatever he is?

34 Inch Stick
12-05-2005, 10:45 AM
Could have been. Or Butkus or Obradovich, I can't recall.

I always thought that was a great quote. Still the man's impact on the NFL cannot be denied.

I know it was not you who said JR was the greatest owner in the history of Chicago sports but I just wanted to highlight the foolishness of that statement.

Hangar18
12-05-2005, 11:28 AM
Wassag:

Part of the reason for Veeck's appeal is that he came across as 'the patron saint of the common fan...' Part of that is true, part of that was contrived.

Regarding Uncle Jerry even I have given him credit for 15 winning seasons, four post season appearances and now (finally) a World series title. But history also records that he was one of the architects of the collusion era of the mid 80's which wound up costing MLB dearly in terms of damages, he extorted a new stadium at the risk of moving a franchise that was a charter member of the American League, tried to break the player's union at the expense of his own team in 1994 and gave approval to the White Flag Trade in 1997 which made the franchise the laughing stock of baseball and demolished attendence for years (including 2000) without getting any major long term benefits from it regarding the player's received in trade. (Foulke was the only one to ever make the All Star team for example and he did that when he left the Sox...)

Lip

This will be an ESPN special years from now .......... and not one of these things isnt true ........ He was voted the most influential man in baseball, and it was for good reason-All of the preceding answers are among them. Personally, I always thought the Chicago Media gave this guy a Free Pass/Get-out-of-jail Card for all of this only because he was living in the shadow of a certain other team. I dont expect him to be "celebrated" at this point by SOX fans any time soon. I give him credit for Fighting The Urge to cut payroll, and Swallow his Pride and re-sign Paul Konerko anyway. Hes got alot of making up to do ...........
but its the 1st step

whitesoxwilkes
12-05-2005, 11:34 AM
This will be an ESPN special years from now .......... and not one of these things isnt true ........ He was voted the most influential man in baseball, and it was for good reason-All of the preceding answers are among them. Personally, I always thought the Chicago Media gave this guy a Free Pass/Get-out-of-jail Card for all of this only because he was living in the shadow of a certain other team. I dont expect him to be "celebrated" at this point by SOX fans any time soon. I give him credit for Fighting The Urge to cut payroll, and Swallow his Pride and re-sign Paul Konerko anyway. Hes got alot of making up to do ...........
but its the 1st step

Henry, *** do you mean the URGE TO CUT PAYROLL? Did Reinsdorf come out and say after the end of the season he was having a Loria-like fire sale?

Come on, give the guy a break.

MUsoxfan
12-05-2005, 11:37 AM
Hes got alot of making up to do ...........
but its the 1st step

I agree. He has to win AT LEAST 3 World Series in a row before I think he's a good owner

Hangar18
12-05-2005, 12:00 PM
I agree. He has to win AT LEAST 3 World Series in a row before I think he's a good owner

JR has a huge chance to erase alot of stereotypes about himself this season if the SOX repeat. How many times have the SOX been in a position ......... to Repeat? JR has pretty much allowed the team to be kept intact .........as opposed to the other options hes previously followed. JR never publicly stated which direction the team was heading in after the season. That coupled with the fact they tried feverishly to unload Konerko in the 04 offseason and then refused to offer him an extension once Spring Training 05 began all signalled an even more streamlined look for 06. The offseason storyline of the year is definitely PK not being bitter and Returning to the Sox (he hinted finally, that he wasnt happy of "being put in the position" the SOX put him in, not offering a contract. JR deserves credit for not continueing his crusade to dump Konerko last season and resign him (for more but not outrageously more ) money. The SOX are on a roll ......... and a WS Championship later, the SOX are on a different course. Keeping players instead of letting them go. This has to be the first time in memory someone didnt BITTERLY leave, or that someone was PUSHED out the door

Times are different ........

DenverSock
12-05-2005, 12:23 PM
One, I can't believe we have this thread. Two, Hangar are you ever going to lay off the guy? They're obviously doing the best they can to continue their winning ways. We can disagree about methods and specific details, even competence but I think it's fairly obvious that Jerry and KW are at least trying to do what they think is right from a baseball perspective.:smile: :smile:

Lip Man 1
12-05-2005, 12:25 PM
West:

I'm not going to get into Hangar's comments so don't tie me in with his thoughts right now. My point is that this isn't my 'opinion' but historical fact.

If you give Reinsdorf credit for some things (which I certainly did in the post) then you have to also look at the facts of things that didn't go well don't you?

On the whole I think history will give him credit for the things that he did and it will also point out the things that for whatever reason or reasons put the franchise in a very difficult situation for a number of years. Ignoring both sides of the table doesn't do justice to the man's legacy.

Lip

Steelrod
12-05-2005, 12:55 PM
Wassag:

Part of the reason for Veeck's appeal is that he came across as 'the patron saint of the common fan...' Part of that is true, part of that was contrived.

Regarding Uncle Jerry even I have given him credit for 15 winning seasons, four post season appearances and now (finally) a World series title. But history also records that he was one of the architects of the collusion era of the mid 80's which wound up costing MLB dearly in terms of damages, he extorted a new stadium at the risk of moving a franchise that was a charter member of the American League, tried to break the player's union at the expense of his own team in 1994 and gave approval to the White Flag Trade in 1997 which made the franchise the laughing stock of baseball and demolished attendence for years (including 2000) without getting any major long term benefits from it regarding the player's received in trade. (Foulke was the only one to ever make the All Star team for example and he did that when he left the Sox...)

Lip
I'm either a little too young or too old to remember.
Which players were traded in the White Flag Trade, what was left in their contracts, and how many all-star apparences did they have? I believe that other than Hernandez, the two pitchers spent most of the remaining contracts on the DL. But I may be wrong. If I am right, is that bad?
BTW- If All Star apparences are a measure of talent, how did we win?

richb2
12-05-2005, 01:04 PM
I started this thread for one reason, I felt like I had to get something off my chest concerning Jerry Reinsdorf. I never liked him except for the first couple of years after he bought the team. I always thought he was running the white sox into the ground. This past season winning it all and bringing back konerko and getting Thome has made me change my opinion of Jerry. I still think he made some stupid mistakes but I no longer want to live in the past. I think Jerry has finally seen the light and wants to win now, it felt good to him to hold that trophy and baseball. At least in my lifetime I actually saw the sox win the big one and maybe have a chance to see a few more world championships before I die. I will stick with my original post and say Jerry you're the best.

Lip Man 1
12-05-2005, 01:34 PM
Steelrod:

Here are the players the Sox got in July 1997.

Keith Foulke, Bob Howrey, Lorenzo Barcelo, Brian Manning, Mike Caruso and Ken Vining.

All Star selections is simply one way to judge a trade and I used it because at the time of the deal, White Sox executives including ownership made numerous comments about how they were getting some real quality players in return. You can find those exact comments here.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=1528

Apparently they weren't getting as talented a group of people as they assured everyone.

They did win the division in 2000 but that was all they won while this group of players was around. They had losing seasons in 1998 and 1999, finished four games over in 2001 and broke even in 2002.

My point was that considering the Sox were only 3 1/2 back at the time of the deal and the resulting major negative publicity that came from it, it damaged the franchise for years at the gate, among the media and from a fan standpoint.

It certainly was a risk. In my opinion the risk wasn't justified by the 'reward.'

Rich:

I agree and that was the point of my original post. My opinion of Reinsdorf has changed, he deserves credit for what he had accomplished but it is just as wrong to automatically say that this 'removes' history. it doesn't. It is there and the decisions that were made had a dramatic impact on the franchise. Those moves are just as historically important as the decisions made by Veeck and I'd say John Allyn as well.

Lip

DenverSock
12-05-2005, 01:40 PM
I agree and that was the point of my original post. My opinion of Reinsdorf has changed, he deserves credit for what he had accomplished but it is just as wrong to automatically say that this 'removes' history. it doesn't. It is there and the decisions that were made had a dramatic impact on the franchise. Those moves are just as historically important as the decisions made by Veeck and I'd say John Allyn as well.

But the question remains: Are you merely questioning his judgement or his intent? Nobody disagrees that the trade was a disaster with terrible ramifications.

Flight #24
12-05-2005, 02:02 PM
JR has a huge chance to erase alot of stereotypes about himself this season if the SOX repeat. How many times have the SOX been in a position ......... to Repeat? JR has pretty much allowed the team to be kept intact .........as opposed to the other options hes previously followed.
More craptacular tripe! Hooray! Hangar - just because you say it doesn't make it true. There have been no "dismantlings" ala Florida since the WFT, which was not made for financial reasons. That it was a bad trade doesn't make JR cheap.

JR never publicly stated which direction the team was heading in after the season. That coupled with the fact they tried feverishly to unload Konerko in the 04 offseason and then refused to offer him an extension once Spring Training 05 began all signalled an even more streamlined look for 06. The offseason storyline of the year is definitely PK not being bitter and Returning to the Sox (he hinted finally, that he wasnt happy of "being put in the position" the SOX put him in, not offering a contract. JR deserves credit for not continueing his crusade to dump Konerko last season and resign him (for more but not outrageously more ) money.
Really? I suppose if you consider keeping Carlos Lee instead of Paulie and the whopping $0.75M difference in payroll between the 2 for 2005 "streamlining". That "crusade to dump Paulie" was the same crusade that resulted in the Lee-Podsednik trade, which arguably was the key to this year's title!
And there's no way not extending Paulie could have been related to anything performance-related like extended slumps or anything.....:rolleyes:


The SOX are on a roll ......... and a WS Championship later, the SOX are on a different course. Keeping players instead of letting them go. This has to be the first time in memory someone didnt BITTERLY leave, or that someone was PUSHED out the door

Times are different ........

Yeah, teams never let players go year to year. Hey - aren't the Cardinals looking at letting Reggie Sanders go? The Red Sox with numerous free agents that won't return? The small-minded Dodgers and Adrian Beltre.....the small-minded D-Backs and Richie Sexson......the small market Angels with Paul Byrd..... Cheap bastards!!!

:whatever:

CubKilla
12-05-2005, 04:25 PM
I gotta admit I got a giggle out of the title of this thread :D: .

What winning one WS will do for one's public image :rolleyes: .

Steelrod
12-05-2005, 04:57 PM
Steelrod:

Here are the players the Sox got in July 1997.

Keith Foulke, Bob Howrey, Lorenzo Barcelo, Brian Manning, Mike Caruso and Ken Vining.

All Star selections is simply one way to judge a trade and I used it because at the time of the deal, White Sox executives including ownership made numerous comments about how they were getting some real quality players in return. You can find those exact comments here.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=1528

Apparently they weren't getting as talented a group of people as they assured everyone.

They did win the division in 2000 but that was all they won while this group of players was around. They had losing seasons in 1998 and 1999, finished four games over in 2001 and broke even in 2002.

My point was that considering the Sox were only 3 1/2 back at the time of the deal and the resulting major negative publicity that came from it, it damaged the franchise for years at the gate, among the media and from a fan standpoint.

It certainly was a risk. In my opinion the risk wasn't justified by the 'reward.'

Rich:

I agree and that was the point of my original post. My opinion of Reinsdorf has changed, he deserves credit for what he had accomplished but it is just as wrong to automatically say that this 'removes' history. it doesn't. It is there and the decisions that were made had a dramatic impact on the franchise. Those moves are just as historically important as the decisions made by Veeck and I'd say John Allyn as well.

Lip
Thanks, but I also wanted to know what happened to the pitchers we gave. If I remember correctly, they both had multi year contracts, and spent most of the remaining time on the DL., with limited success.

Flight #24
12-05-2005, 08:32 PM
Thanks, but I also wanted to know what happened to the pitchers we gave. If I remember correctly, they both had multi year contracts, and spent most of the remaining time on the DL., with limited success.

Danny Darwin: 1-3 in 44IP with a 4.91ERA down the stretch for the Giants, following year went 8-10 in 148IP with a 5.51 ERA. Out of the majors since.

Wilson Alvarez: 4-3 in 66IP with a 4.48ERA down the stretch for the Giants. Signed with Tampa and gave them a combined 17-26 in 378IP with an ERA around 4.7. IIRC had arm surgery and only in the last couple of years has bounced back as a swing pitcher with the Dodgers.

Roberto Hernandez: 5-2 with 4 saves in 32IP down the stretch for the Giants. Also went to Tampa and gave them 101 saves in 3 years with an ERA in the mid 3s. Then spent 2 years in KC with 54 saves and an ERA just north of 4. Bounced around the last 3 years as a sometimes effective middle reliever.

FarWestChicago
12-05-2005, 09:41 PM
What winning one WS will do for one's public image :rolleyes: .Yes, that is how a sane person would react.

CubKilla
12-05-2005, 10:33 PM
Yes, that is how a sane person would react.

Sorry..... but I'm not forgetting Reinsy strong-arming the taxpayers for a stadium with threats of moving the team to Florida in the 80's, him leading the pack of owners in '94 for a strike, the White Flag in '97.....

Win 2 or 3 WS and MAYBE I'll reconsider. You're way too easy to please.

santo=dorf
12-05-2005, 10:37 PM
Sorry..... but I'm not forgetting Reinsy strong-arming the taxpayers for a stadium with threats of moving the team to Florida in the 80's, him leading the pack of owners in '94 for a strike, the White Flag in '97.....

Win 2 or 3 WS and MAYBE I'll reconsider. You're way too easy to please.

:rolleyes:
Un-friggin-real. Me and my daddy shared tears of joy and my phone rang off the hook for about 30 minutes afterwards.

THANK YOU WHITE SOX! AND EVERY BAD THING I EVER UTTERED ABOUT KW AND JR BEFORE TONIGHT HAS BEEN ERADICATED DURING THE SPAN OF ABOUT 4 WEEKS.

THANK YOU!

Care to explain the red?

FarWestChicago
12-05-2005, 11:06 PM
Sorry..... but I'm not forgetting Reinsy strong-arming the taxpayers for a stadium with threats of moving the team to Florida in the 80's, him leading the pack of owners in '94 for a strike, the White Flag in '97.....

Win 2 or 3 WS and MAYBE I'll reconsider. You're way too easy to please.I said "sane" person. I didn't mean you.

FarWestChicago
12-05-2005, 11:08 PM
Care to explain the red?One of they advantages of being a lunatic is you don't even have to pretend to be rational. :redneck

eleshu
12-06-2005, 12:22 AM
i just can't put into words how i feel after reading this thread. have you people lost your friggin' minds? one world series win, and your badmouthing veek and praising reinsdorf, i'm shocked and disgusted, really, who's on the kool-aid now?

MUsoxfan
12-06-2005, 01:00 AM
one world series win, and your badmouthing veek and praising reinsdorf, i'm shocked and disgusted, really, who's on the kool-aid now?

Veeck = 0 World Series
Reinsdorf = 1 World Series and a million dreams come true


I liked Veeck and I know he was revolutionary in promotions and he did what he could do for the team in his limited budget, but there's no way in the world Reinsdorf doesn't deserve praise

Steelrod
12-06-2005, 02:31 AM
Sorry..... but I'm not forgetting Reinsy strong-arming the taxpayers for a stadium with threats of moving the team to Florida in the 80's, him leading the pack of owners in '94 for a strike, the White Flag in '97.....

Win 2 or 3 WS and MAYBE I'll reconsider. You're way too easy to please.

Can't believe I'm turning into a defender! Continuing...
Which taxpayers do you speak of?
Certainly not us, as the stadium money came from downtown hotel-motel tax. This is the same hotel-motel tax that created Soldier Field with it's excess revenues, for what that is worth!

Steelrod
12-06-2005, 02:32 AM
i just can't put into words how i feel after reading this thread. have you people lost your friggin' minds? one world series win, and your badmouthing veek and praising reinsdorf, i'm shocked and disgusted, really, who's on the kool-aid now?
Is that you, Mike?

Flight #24
12-06-2005, 09:40 AM
Sorry..... but I'm not forgetting Reinsy strong-arming the taxpayers for a stadium with threats of moving the team to Florida in the 80's, him leading the pack of owners in '94 for a strike, the White Flag in '97.....

Win 2 or 3 WS and MAYBE I'll reconsider. You're way too easy to please.

Yeah, because they gave JR a stadium.....that.....ISFA.....owns........:rolleye s:

Or maybe it's because no other owners make threats to move to get a new stadium......you know, like......well, there's........:rolleyes:

You're hanging your hat on the WFT? A decision that was decided NOT made by the owner, but by the GM and was merely approved by the owner based on the input of his "baseball men"?

Before last year it was "well, he hasn't won a title, so he's a failure as an owner". Now that he's won one (bringing his total to 7), it's "well, he's only won 1".

Enjoy the cloud, the rest of us will enjoy having one of the most successful owners in sports running a world championship team.

richb2
12-06-2005, 10:59 AM
what did veeck really ever do for the sox in terms of putting a winning team on the field? I just don't get the destroy reinsdorf approach and yet hail Bill veeck as a great owner. Who knows, if Bill veeck did not buy the sox back then maybe someone else who had money would have bought the team. I give him credit maybe for saving the team , but he also put a lot of horrible teams on the field with no hope of ever getting to the post season. Like I have said Jerry made a lot of stupid mistakes ,but Veeck also made his fair shar of mistakes when he owned this team.

Mohoney
12-15-2005, 02:57 AM
Why do we have to choose between the two? As far as I'm concerned, they both have a hand in this championship, as do all the other members of the current ownership group.

In 25 years at the helm, Reinsdorf has only suffered 3 seasons of 90+ losses while winning 90+ games 5 times. The White Sox have been .500 or better 16 times in this span.

By contrast, the Cubs have had 6 90+ loss seasons in this span, and have won 90+ only 3 times. The Cubs have been .500 or better 8 times in these 25 seasons.

Not to mention that a big fat golden trophy with a bunch of little flags on it has made an appearance in Chicago for the first time since WWI.

I think this guy sums it up perfectly:
:thankgod

pmck003
12-15-2005, 03:55 AM
I never really understood the intensity of the criticism of Reinsdorf here. I thought he was willing to spend money (Albert Belle) but didn't think anyone knew how to spend it. Now he can see that KW and Ozzie know how and things are different.

I have been surprised by the contrasting praise for Bill Veeck, who accomplished absolutely nothing for the Sox. He inherited a team built by Frank Lane and previous ownership, took credit for the pennant and proceeded to show that he had no idea what to do with all the talent in the organization he bought. He kept the Sox from being moved out of Chicago. Think about the recent parade and tell me how pathetic that is as a standard of ownership success. Just a reflection of how low our expectations have been -- thanks in good part to Veeck's ownership.

.

This makes perfect sense as to how JR has acted over the years and to JR's public quotes of rather having one world series victory over all the basketball championships (correct me if I am wrong). I agree about Veeck, more of a marketing genius than caring about winning. Made going to St. Paul Saint games pretty entertaing though.