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caulfield12
12-01-2005, 06:53 PM
Let us suppose you could make the following decision...

Buehrle, 2007 Contract=$9.5 million
F. Garcia, 2007 Contract=$10 million

Just gave those numbers as a reference.

Jon Garland, sign for 3 years (2006-2008) at $24 million, also avoiding the ugly process of salary arbitration, as they did with Mark.

Jose Contreras, sign for one additional year (2007) at $9 million.

Which move would you make if you were KW and had a gun to your head and had to make one move or the other tonight?

antitwins13
12-01-2005, 06:58 PM
Let us suppose you could make the following decision...

Buehrle, 2007 Contract=$9.5 million
F. Garcia, 2007 Contract=$10 million

Just gave those numbers as a reference.

Jon Garland, sign for 3 years (2006-2008) at $24 million, also avoiding the ugly process of salary arbitration, as they did with Mark.

Jose Contreras, sign for one additional year (2007) at $9 million.

Which move would you make if you were KW and had a gun to your head and had to make one move or the other tonight?


That's the easiest question I've ever been asked on this board. Jony G hands down. He's young and still has an upside, he dominated for the whole season and has really improved his control. Contreras is streaky and you don't know who you're going to get, the dominating playoffs Contreras or the throw a bagillion fork balls and get rocked Contreras. In conclusion I tell the terrorist to put the gun down and I sign Garland.

munchman33
12-01-2005, 07:03 PM
I've gotta go with Contreras. He was the best pitcher in the American League second half of last year. He looks like he's finally put it all together. You don't trade the best pitcher in the league. Especially when you're not paying him relatively much, and he's got another couple of years on his deal.

caulfield12
12-01-2005, 07:08 PM
That's the easiest question I've ever been asked on this board. Jony G hands down. He's young and still has an upside, he dominated for the whole season and has really improved his control. Contreras is streaky and you don't know who you're going to get, the dominating playoffs Contreras or the throw a bagillion fork balls and get rocked Contreras. In conclusion I tell the terrorist to put the gun down and I sign Garland.

I do not think it is easy at all.

JG has hinted many times over the years that he has not been happy with the fans and might go back to SoCal.

I repeat, JG is never going to strike batters out or throw 95-98 like Kevin Brown in his prime. He relies on having a great defense behind him...without Crede and Uribe, he would be much more ordinary. So would Mark, who always gives up about as many hits as innings pitched.

Jose was the unquestioned ace of this staff and the main reason the White Sox pitching staff held together through August and September. When everyone else was afraid to take the ball, he went out and broke losing streak after losing streak.

You could just see him becoming a different pitcher...more confident and sure of himself on the mound. The change in arm slots, even during at-bats, gave Contreras an additional weapon, like Loaizas cutter in 2003.

Everyone keeps mentioning Contreras age, but what about his velocity or innings pitched over the last five years in the States gives you concern? The fact that he looks old? He could probably play tight end in the NFL. The guy is just an intimidating presence....you could just feel teams giving up in the 3rd or 4th inning against him. With JG, you never know when a couple of mistakes will get the opponent back in the ballgame.

Contreras was an assasin when he got ahead of hitters, pitched quickly and then had two options for strikeouts, either the fastball or forkball. He stopped being afraid to get hurt with his fastball and started pitching with the opposite approach, getting ahead with the forkball many times.

santo=dorf
12-01-2005, 07:08 PM
I've gotta go with Contreras. He was the best pitcher in the American League second half of last year. He looks like he's finally put it all together. You don't trade the best pitcher in the league. Especially when you're not paying him relatively much, and he's got another couple of years on his deal.
Contreras is a free agent after this season.

BTW, I was looking at some old threads and I saw you wrote that you put a $100 on the Sox to win the World Series after I posted the odds.

Did you cash in on those 60-1 odds? :o:

caulfield12
12-01-2005, 07:08 PM
I've gotta go with Contreras. He was the best pitcher in the American League second half of last year. He looks like he's finally put it all together. You don't trade the best pitcher in the league. Especially when you're not paying him relatively much, and he's got another couple of years on his deal.

Contreras is only signed through 2006

Garland through 2006

Garcia and Buehrle through 2007

munchman33
12-01-2005, 07:10 PM
Contreras is a free agent after this season.

BTW, I was looking at some old threads and I saw you wrote that you put a $100 on the Sox to win the World Series after I posted the odds.

Did you cash in on those 60-1 odds? :o:

Yes sir. I won $6,000. :D:

Thank you for the tip! If you're ever coming to the city, let me know and I'll buy you a drink.

antitwins13
12-01-2005, 07:11 PM
I do not think it is easy at all.

JG has hinted many times over the years that he has not been happy with the fans and might go back to SoCal.

I repeat, JG is never going to strike batters out or throw 95-98 like Kevin Brown in his prime. He relies on having a great defense behind him...without Crede and Uribe, he would be much more ordinary. So would Mark, who always gives up about as many hits as innings pitched.

Jose was the unquestioned ace of this staff and the main reason the White Sox pitching staff held together through August and September. When everyone else was afraid to take the ball, he went out and broke losing streak after losing streak.

.


I don't know why Jon wouldn't be happy with the fans for one. I'd like to see him quoted as saying he isn't happy with them. Also, Buehrle was dominating with Valentin at short and Perry at third so that's unfair to say it's been the defense helping him out. Until this year the Sox defense was their weakest part of their game.

Daver
12-01-2005, 07:20 PM
I do not think it is easy at all.

JG has hinted many times over the years that he has not been happy with the fans and might go back to SoCal.

I repeat, JG is never going to strike batters out or throw 95-98 like Kevin Brown in his prime. He relies on having a great defense behind him...without Crede and Uribe, he would be much more ordinary. So would Mark, who always gives up about as many hits as innings pitched.

Jose was the unquestioned ace of this staff and the main reason the White Sox pitching staff held together through August and September. When everyone else was afraid to take the ball, he went out and broke losing streak after losing streak.

You could just see him becoming a different pitcher...more confident and sure of himself on the mound. The change in arm slots, even during at-bats, gave Contreras an additional weapon, like Loaizas cutter in 2003.

Everyone keeps mentioning Contreras age, but what about his velocity or innings pitched over the last five years in the States gives you concern? The fact that he looks old? He could probably play tight end in the NFL. The guy is just an intimidating presence....you could just feel teams giving up in the 3rd or 4th inning against him. With JG, you never know when a couple of mistakes will get the opponent back in the ballgame.

Contreras was an assasin when he got ahead of hitters, pitched quickly and then had two options for strikeouts, either the fastball or forkball. He stopped being afraid to get hurt with his fastball and started pitching with the opposite approach, getting ahead with the forkball many times.

Please explain Mark's success when he had a less than average defense behind him in 2000.

Please tell me why you want a pitcher that had a great half a season over a pitcher ten years younger that put together a solid season overall, and led the team in wins.

Why does it matter if he doesn't hit the radar gun with an impressive number, if he is getting batters out? The radar gun is the single worst thing ever brought to the sport of baseball, and it has ruined many pitchers careers before they could even start.

Please provide me with a quotes of Jon not being happy playing in Chicago.

WestSox
12-01-2005, 08:08 PM
I do not think it is easy at all.

JG has hinted many times over the years that he has not been happy with the fans and might go back to SoCal.

I repeat, JG is never going to strike batters out or throw 95-98 like Kevin Brown in his prime. He relies on having a great defense behind him...without Crede and Uribe, he would be much more ordinary. So would Mark, who always gives up about as many hits as innings pitched.

Jose was the unquestioned ace of this staff and the main reason the White Sox pitching staff held together through August and September. When everyone else was afraid to take the ball, he went out and broke losing streak after losing streak.

You could just see him becoming a different pitcher...more confident and sure of himself on the mound. The change in arm slots, even during at-bats, gave Contreras an additional weapon, like Loaizas cutter in 2003.

Everyone keeps mentioning Contreras age, but what about his velocity or innings pitched over the last five years in the States gives you concern? The fact that he looks old? He could probably play tight end in the NFL. The guy is just an intimidating presence....you could just feel teams giving up in the 3rd or 4th inning against him. With JG, you never know when a couple of mistakes will get the opponent back in the ballgame.

Contreras was an assasin when he got ahead of hitters, pitched quickly and then had two options for strikeouts, either the fastball or forkball. He stopped being afraid to get hurt with his fastball and started pitching with the opposite approach, getting ahead with the forkball many times.

I've never heard of Garland not being happy with the fans in Chicago. No idea where you got that info.

All pitchers rely on defense to a certain extent, but people like Buehrle will be successful (and have been successful) with mediocre defense. You don't have to be a power pitcher to be an effective pitcher.

I'd let Contreras walk after this season. He's pitched one half of a good season and was spectacular in the playoffs. But he's also in his mid-30's and will command more money that he's worth in '07. Thank him for what he did and let him walk.

Right now, Buehrle and McCarthy are the only starting pitchers that I DEFINITELY want around after '06. If Garland can repeat what he did this season (or come close to it), I'd like to see JR and KW give him the 4 years/$40 million or so that he'd command. If he reverts back to the 12-13/4.60 pitcher that we saw from '00-'04, show him the door and let the Yankees or Red Sox over-pay for him.

WestSox
12-01-2005, 08:09 PM
Why does it matter if he doesn't hit the radar gun with an impressive number, if he is getting batters out? The radar gun is the single worst thing ever brought to the sport of baseball, and it has ruined many pitchers careers before they could even start.


I have two words for people who think that pitch velocity means everything: Kyle Farnsworth

RedPinStripes
12-01-2005, 08:14 PM
I've gotta go with Contreras. He was the best pitcher in the American League second half of last year. He looks like he's finally put it all together. You don't trade the best pitcher in the league. Especially when you're not paying him relatively much, and he's got another couple of years on his deal.

Your what hurts?:?:

likeawarlord
12-01-2005, 08:20 PM
Why does it matter if he doesn't hit the radar gun with an impressive number, if he is getting batters out? The radar gun is the single worst thing ever brought to the sport of baseball, and it has ruined many pitchers careers before they could even start.

that can't be true. if it were, kerry wood wouldn't be among the greatest pitchers of all time.

California Sox
12-01-2005, 09:46 PM
Well, Garland just turned down the three-year deal so...

It is a tough question. You've got to imagine they'll let at least one of them walk for budget reasons. I'm always wary of pitchers who don't strike out that many people (I suspended that for Carl Pavano, but turns out I was wrong). On the other hand JG saws off so many bats that it's like he has five additional strikeouts a game. Emotionally I say Garland, but I think Contreras is going to be easier to keep.

Man Soo Lee
12-01-2005, 11:09 PM
Contreras is a free agent after this season.

Because he's old and expensive, I had been thinking Contreras would be a free agent after this contract too. Really, he'll only have four years of service time after 2006. Unless there is some clause in his contract like Matsui had, he should just be arbitration-eligible.

knocko94
12-01-2005, 11:25 PM
Because he's old and expensive, I had been thinking Contreras would be a free agent after this contract too. Really, he'll only have four years of service time after 2006. Unless there is some clause in his contract like Matsui had, he should just be arbitration-eligible.

He probably signed a Major League contract. Kinda like Prior did out of the draft.

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 06:53 AM
I have two words for people who think that pitch velocity means everything: Kyle Farnsworth

Bobby Jenks

Chicken Dinner
12-02-2005, 10:07 AM
Unfortunately, Jon Garland is NOT a number 1 or 2 guy. He should be where he's at, in the 4 or 5 spot. If he goes to another club as a top starter, his success will be limited.

WestSideWhiteSox
12-02-2005, 10:40 AM
I don't like saying this because he's a good guy, but in the long run JG is another Carl Pavano or Matt Clement, which is to say he's a fine #4 starter. I just don't see him being the consistent 15-game winner/sub-4.00 ERA guy that you need in the #1-3 spots. I'm confident we can find similar talent in '07-'08 for much less money.

Contreras was Pedro Martinez for 2 months last season. So even though we know he's not going to continue that for 3 years, a short term deal with a horse like that is much less risky than a longer term deal for JG.

Frater Perdurabo
12-02-2005, 10:48 AM
Garland is worth a lot to the Sox. A ground-ball pitcher in a home-run happy park is a good thing. I could see a pitching-poor team like the Rangers offering Garland a ton of cash; they desperately need ground-ball pitchers in their homer/double happy park as well.

I'd also try to keep Contreras, though.

The point is that the Sox can never have too much good starting pitching. I hope that Paulie's big contract doesn't hamstring the Sox ability to re-sign their core of starting pitchers.

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 03:07 PM
Garland is worth a lot to the Sox. A ground-ball pitcher in a home-run happy park is a good thing. I could see a pitching-poor team like the Rangers offering Garland a ton of cash; they desperately need ground-ball pitchers in their homer/double happy park as well.

I'd also try to keep Contreras, though.

The point is that the Sox can never have too much good starting pitching. I hope that Paulie's big contract doesn't hamstring the Sox ability to re-sign their core of starting pitchers.

Fine, but what is the limit of what you would pay him?

$10 million per season, more than Buehrle and Garcia? $11? $12? How would you tell those two guys who have earned their money that one-half season of accomplishment is going to trump their careers of consistency if you were KW?

MHOUSE
12-02-2005, 03:32 PM
If I had to make the decision tomorrow with a "gun to my head" I would take Contreras based on his second-half dominance and playoff performance. Remember that Garland started 8-0 and finished the season 10-10 after that which is pretty much his old form.

Luckily, we have the 2006 season to decide which one we want to resign for a 3-year big money deal. If Contreras has finally put it together has a 16+ win season with a good ERA and dominates like he can more often than not, then I want him. If Garland can win 15-18 games again and be consistent for the whole season then he's got the age and health on his side.

Optipessimism
12-02-2005, 04:09 PM
Contreras without question. I'd prefer to keep both obviously, but if it had to be one or the other definitely Jose. Jon benefits largely from the defense behind him as does Buehrle, but in the playoffs these guys make me somewhat more uncomfortable. Jon obviously has more years ahead of him and should stay healthy enough to be a quality ML starter for a long time, but Contreras gives us nasty dominance right now.

Also, I'd love to see the Sox try to extend Jose before this season if possible. If Contreras pitches most of the year like he did the last half of the season and in the playoffs, this guy will be making 14M per year. No way we can afford that.

caulfield12
12-03-2005, 09:48 AM
Contreras without question. I'd prefer to keep both obviously, but if it had to be one or the other definitely Jose. Jon benefits largely from the defense behind him as does Buehrle, but in the playoffs these guys make me somewhat more uncomfortable. Jon obviously has more years ahead of him and should stay healthy enough to be a quality ML starter for a long time, but Contreras gives us nasty dominance right now.

Also, I'd love to see the Sox try to extend Jose before this season if possible. If Contreras pitches most of the year like he did the last half of the season and in the playoffs, this guy will be making 14M per year. No way we can afford that.

Voting results so far...

Clear preference for Contreras 5
Clear preference for Garland 2
Undecided...both or neither 3

Not an easy decision...but fortunately there is this season for both of these guys to prove 2005 was not a fluke. It should be good competition between the two, as I canīt imagine any scenario where we could afford to bring back both if they were to pitch similarly to last season.

Steelrod
12-03-2005, 10:03 AM
My son just pointed out something that ALL of us are omitting. Garland started the season as a fifth starter and was lights out!
At the All Star break, Ozzie reworked the rotation moving him way up. The second half numbers were more in keeping with last year's. When from way ahead towards 20 victories at the break, ended up with 18! Probably had a lot to do with the second half swoon. Contreras went to #5 and he rolled in second half.
Garland was of course outstanding in the playoffs!

My question is, if you pay him #2 money for multiyears, what are you going to get?

Steelrod
12-03-2005, 10:08 AM
Contreras is a free agent after this season.

BTW, I was looking at some old threads and I saw you wrote that you put a $100 on the Sox to win the World Series after I posted the odds.

Did you cash in on those 60-1 odds? :o:
Dont know about him but I did! Also got 22-1 to win American League!

caulfield12
12-03-2005, 10:30 AM
My son just pointed out something that ALL of us are omitting. Garland started the season as a fifth starter and was lights out!
At the All Star break, Ozzie reworked the rotation moving him way up. The second half numbers were more in keeping with last year's. When from way ahead towards 20 victories at the break, ended up with 18! Probably had a lot to do with the second half swoon. Contreras went to #5 and he rolled in second half.
Garland was of course outstanding in the playoffs!

My question is, if you pay him #2 money for multiyears, what are you going to get?

If you look at some of the match-ups that Brandon McCarthy had to face (Schilling and Johan Santana), you would have thought that he was the Sox ace....and he really was, along with El Gran Titan de Bronze, coming down the stretch.

They changed the pitching rotation, but that only was relevant for the first couple of series after the break (CLE)....after that, it was a crapshoot because of rainouts and scheduling differences where the rotation stayed identical with the exception of Brandon for El Duque.

If you look at JG, if he thinks he has the pressure to be the ace, he is going to be a .500 pitcher. With no attention on him, he can pitch 200 plus innings and hopefully be 5-7 games over .500. I donīt really expect much more than that out of him this year, realistically.