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JermaineDye05
12-01-2005, 06:53 PM
The White Sox manager also expressed the desire for another left-handed hitter in the lineup, which could be one in the same with a true second hitter in the order behind leadoff man Scott Podsednik. That particular player could be Jerry Owens, the rookie speedster who impressed Guillen during winter baseball in Venezuela with his overall improvement and his composure on the field. For now, Brian Anderson appears to be the frontrunner to take over the starting center fielder's position -- even with Guillen's endorsement of Owens. Guillen seems set on moving Tadahito Iguchi down in the order and gave the nod to shortstop Juan Uribe at the order's second slot if Owens doesn't win the battle in center, or if another move isn't made.

the battle for Center will be very interesting in Spring Training, I can't wait.

here's the full article if anyone wants it http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051201&content_id=1274942&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

gobears1987
12-01-2005, 08:38 PM
Please not Uribe in the 2 hole. We need a contact hitter there to move Pods over.

ilsox7
12-01-2005, 08:44 PM
Please not Uribe in the 2 hole. We need a contact hitter there to move Pods over.

Not saying I agree with Juan in the 2 spot, but he did strike out less times than Tad last year, as was discussed in the thread about Juan moving to the 2 spot.

Brian26
12-01-2005, 09:04 PM
Not saying I agree with Juan in the 2 spot, but he did strike out less times than Tad last year, as was discussed in the thread about Juan moving to the 2 spot.

That's a deceiving statistic though. Juan Uribe batted 9th for a majority of the year, swinging freely as he pleased with usually nobody on base in front of him. Iguchi, on the otherhand, spent the entire year taking pitches and/or fouling off pitches and getting behind in the count trying to give Pods a chance to steal. I don't have any numbers in front of me, but I'd love to see how many times Iguchi struck out after taking the first two strikes as opposed to missed swings (I'm not sure Stats Inc. even keeps those kind of numbers).

If Uribe bats second, he's going to be expected to be much more patient at the plate.

bobowhite
12-01-2005, 09:07 PM
I don't think that Uribe will be batting in the number two hole. I don't know many shortstops who do. The defensive requirements of the position normally are too draining for the player to also bat in a key offensive position.

Brian26
12-01-2005, 09:08 PM
I don't think that Uribe will be batting in the number two hole. I don't know many shortstops who do. The defensive requirements of the position normally are too draining for the player to also bat in a key offensive position.

Renteria, Nomar, Jeter....off the top of my head. Lots of SS bat second. I don't follow your line of thinking.

ilsox7
12-01-2005, 09:17 PM
That's a deceiving statistic though. Juan Uribe batted 9th for a majority of the year, swinging freely as he pleased with usually nobody on base in front of him. Iguchi, on the otherhand, spent the entire year taking pitches and/or fouling off pitches and getting behind in the count trying to give Pods a chance to steal. I don't have any numbers in front of me, but I'd love to see how many times Iguchi struck out after taking the first two strikes as opposed to missed swings (I'm not sure Stats Inc. even keeps those kind of numbers).

If Uribe bats second, he's going to be expected to be much more patient at the plate.

I agree it's deseiving but if I remember correctly, Juan's K's were significantly lower than Tad's. Mostly, I just think this is Ozzie being Ozzie. The hting Ozzie does best is talk. Have to take everything with a grain of salt.

Randar68
12-02-2005, 11:29 AM
I agree it's deseiving but if I remember correctly, Juan's K's were significantly lower than Tad's. Mostly, I just think this is Ozzie being Ozzie. The hting Ozzie does best is talk. Have to take everything with a grain of salt.

It would be an interesting experiment, IMO. Juan Uribe is a guy who can put the ball in play on-demand. He's at his best when he's going to RF and when he's trying to make contact, not hit the ball to Mars.

The key question is this:

Can Ozzie convince Uribe to embrace and adapt to the role or will Uribe just do his own thing at the plate like he has in the past?

Uribe isn't a great bunter either, and I don't think he gives you that speed they're looking for any more than Iguchi does. I'd really like to see Tad in the 5 or 6 spot in the order, but I just don't see it unless Owens hits about .600 in S.T. and plays stellar defense in CF (doubt either will happen)

Tekijawa
12-02-2005, 11:35 AM
I posted this in a simmilar thread yesterday:


I'm Sure this is mostly in Colorado

Batting G AB H R HR RBI AVG OBP SLG OPS
2nd 147 584 157 103 16 65 269 321 433 755
9th 95 287 69 29 8 40 240 282 376 658
8th 136 460 123 52 10 64 267 308 422 729


Iguchi
2nd 131 507 139 72 15 66 274 338 434 772


A lot closer then I would have expected. If Uribe Doesnt bat 2nd I would assume that he would move up to the 8 spot with Anderson batting 9th. Uribe's numbers were his lowest in the 9 spot.

pdimas
12-02-2005, 12:04 PM
This doesn't seem like that bad of an idea at all to me. Uribe granted has been known to be something of a free swinger in the past but in the second half of the season he really became a lot more patient at the plate. Maybe it was that little step he added to his swing but it definitely seemed like he was seeing the ball a lot better. First three months of the season 12 base on balls last three months 22

mdep524
12-02-2005, 12:05 PM
The other thing about batting second is getting on base. Everyone talks about moving Scotty over, bunting, etc., but I think a good OBP is just as important. You have to maximize the chance that someone is on base when Thome and Konerko come to the plate. It can't all fall to Podsednik. Uribe's .301 OBP from last season isn't even close to getting that job done.

pdimas
12-02-2005, 12:07 PM
Look at September right around when he started using that step his OBP was .379

mdep524
12-02-2005, 12:13 PM
Look at September right around when he started using that step his OBP was .379 He had a great September, no doubt. If he could hit like that all the time we'd be set. But will it carry over? He also had an amazing September in '04, where hit hit .353 and had a .371 OBP. That didn't carry over to this season when he struggled for the first several months.

Tekijawa
12-02-2005, 12:17 PM
He had a great September, no doubt. If he could hit like that all the time we'd be set. But will it carry over? He also had an amazing September in '04, where hit hit .353 and had a .371 OBP. That didn't carry over to this season when he struggled for the first several months.

Another poster brought up that he would see alot more fastballs hitting behind Podsednik... I remember a lot of balls in the dirt that he would swing at batting 9th... there would be a lot less of those with a guy who has Stolen 70+ bases in a season on the basepaths.

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 12:17 PM
It would be an interesting experiment, IMO. Juan Uribe is a guy who can put the ball in play on-demand. He's at his best when he's going to RF and when he's trying to make contact, not hit the ball to Mars.

The key question is this:

Can Ozzie convince Uribe to embrace and adapt to the role or will Uribe just do his own thing at the plate like he has in the past?

Uribe isn't a great bunter either, and I don't think he gives you that speed they're looking for any more than Iguchi does. I'd really like to see Tad in the 5 or 6 spot in the order, but I just don't see it unless Owens hits about .600 in S.T. and plays stellar defense in CF (doubt either will happen)

Uribe had 10 sacrifice flies...didnīt that lead MLB or the AL at least? Juan usually seems to bear down a lot more with runners on....despite being mired in the .230īs and .240īs for much of the season, he managed to drive in well over 70 runs. I would much rather have him bunting than Willie Harris or Aaron Rowand, I know that much. Of course, thatīs not the stamp of approval for a second hitter. Omar Vizquel would be more ideal...but weīve been down that road before. Juan has his inadequacies, but heīs still a relative bargain at $4 million.

Right now, it seems that they want to go with Uribe in 2 spot, irregardless of what Owens does. I donīt imagine Owens will make the team out of ST, but stranger things have happened.

bobowhite
12-02-2005, 12:22 PM
Renteria, Nomar, Jeter....off the top of my head. Lots of SS bat second. I don't follow your line of thinking.

None of those guys are Gold Glove candidate shortstops, none even close and none of them play for a team which is made for defense first. They all happen to bat second and play in the shortstop position. Jorge Posada plays catcher, he's there to swing the bat, I wouldn't give a nickel for how he calls the game. The same for Rentaria, Nomar and Jeter.

Tekijawa
12-02-2005, 12:28 PM
None of those guys are Gold Glove candidate shortstops, none even close and none of them play for a team which is made for defense first. They all happen to bat second and play in the shortstop position. Jorge Posada plays catcher, he's there to swing the bat, I wouldn't give a nickel for how he calls the game. The same for Rentaria, Nomar and Jeter.

Bobo,

Jeter won a Gold Glove in 2004
Renteria won in 2002 and 2003
Nomar I don't think has won one, but has ben very close a couple of times... :?:

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 12:30 PM
None of those guys are Gold Glove candidate shortstops, none even close and none of them play for a team which is made for defense first. They all happen to bat second and play in the shortstop position. Jorge Posada plays catcher, he's there to swing the bat, I wouldn't give a nickel for how he calls the game. The same for Rentaria, Nomar and Jeter.

Omar Vizquel has been the prototype, which is why OG and KW went after him so aggressively in the off-season, despite his age.

Jeter and Garciaparra were certainly well above average....obviously Jeter won some Gold Gloves due to the media bias, but he has always been a solid if not spectacular fielder. Garciaparra has (or used to have) a very strong arm. Renteria was a very strong offensive and defensive combination for those Marlins teams in the late 90īs.

If any SS was the inverse, it was probably Miguel Tejada, who was known mostly for his offensive capabilities.

gr8mexico
12-02-2005, 02:19 PM
Well now that the Marlins send Luis Castillo to the Twins why not send Willie Harris and a prospect for Juan Pierre with the Sox picking up all of Pierre contract.The Marlins needs a 2nd baseman and need to get rid of payroll.

pdimas
12-02-2005, 02:24 PM
He had a great September, no doubt. If he could hit like that all the time we'd be set. But will it carry over? He also had an amazing September in '04, where hit hit .353 and had a .371 OBP. That didn't carry over to this season when he struggled for the first several months.

Have faith in the step. I really felt that little change really helped him and this time i have a feeling its gonna carry over.

Linky (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050908&content_id=1202506&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 03:13 PM
Well now that the Marlins send Luis Castillo to the Twins why not send Willie Harris and a prospect for Juan Pierre with the Sox picking up all of Pierre contract.The Marlins needs a 2nd baseman and need to get rid of payroll.

Why would we pay for all of Pierres contract when we are going to give them something they need, a possible starting 2B?

It only makes sense to deal Harris and Marte, assuming the White Sox dont want Marte back.

This would cancel out $2 million of Pierres deal, the problem is that you now have to replace Marte in a market that is giving average middle relievers $3-5 million per season. If Howry, Wagner, Gordon, Eyre, Ryan....are worth what they are getting, then Damaso Marte is vastly overpaid and one of our most valuable commodities. We lose nothing by keeping him, and possibly have an even deeper pen if he gets it back together. Otherwise, it should not be so difficult to deal him in the middle of the season.

Gammons Peter
12-02-2005, 03:32 PM
Why can't we just leave Gooch in the two hole. He was probably the best two hitter in baseball. Why mess with what works and hope that he can be an effective RBI guy lower in the lineup. This is not Japan and he's never going to hit 30 homeruns here

gr8mexico
12-02-2005, 04:38 PM
Why would we pay for all of Pierres contract when we are going to give them something they need, a possible starting 2B?

It only makes sense to deal Harris and Marte, assuming the White Sox dont want Marte back.

This would cancel out $2 million of Pierres deal, the problem is that you now have to replace Marte in a market that is giving average middle relievers $3-5 million per season. If Howry, Wagner, Gordon, Eyre, Ryan....are worth what they are getting, then Damaso Marte is vastly overpaid and one of our most valuable commodities. We lose nothing by keeping him, and possibly have an even deeper pen if he gets it back together. Otherwise, it should not be so difficult to deal him in the middle of the season. I think the Sox can easily replace Marte with either Ricardo Rincon (OAK), Mike Myers (BOS), Matt Hergers (ex closer SF) or Al Reyes (STL).The Sox know relief pitching and im sure they can find someone with out a problem. The Sox should really make a push for Pierre especially with the injury problems Dye has had in the past.

SoxSpeed22
12-02-2005, 04:48 PM
I think the Sox can easily replace Marte with either Ricardo Rincon (OAK), Mike Myers (BOS), Matt Hergers (ex closer SF) or Al Reyes (STL).The Sox know relief pitching and im sure they can find someone with out a problem. The Sox should really make a push for Pierre especially with the injury problems Dye has had in the past.No Herges! That bum blamed AJ for all of his 9th inning gopherballs. Al Reyes is coming off of elbow surgery, we don't know about him. So, by default, Rincon or Myers are the only choices. Myers is lefty-specific and Rincon is coming off a bad year. I would rather not trade for Pierre, because that would make us worse defensively, and I am dead certain that the Fish would try and jack up the price. That's probably why he hasn't been traded yet. Dye's injury problems is a very good concern. If a major injury happens, that might hasten Owens' or Young's promotions. I can't think of what else to do, because we're already very close to our projected $85-$90 Million budget.

caulfield12
12-03-2005, 09:38 AM
No Herges! That bum blamed AJ for all of his 9th inning gopherballs. Al Reyes is coming off of elbow surgery, we don't know about him. So, by default, Rincon or Myers are the only choices. Myers is lefty-specific and Rincon is coming off a bad year. I would rather not trade for Pierre, because that would make us worse defensively, and I am dead certain that the Fish would try and jack up the price. That's probably why he hasn't been traded yet. Dye's injury problems is a very good concern. If a major injury happens, that might hasten Owens' or Young's promotions. I can't think of what else to do, because we're already very close to our projected $85-$90 Million budget.

The most amazing thing is that Indians traded Rincon straight up for Brian Giles. That will go down as one of the dumb moves of all-time, although Cleveland had such a surplus (S. Casey, Sexson and Danny Graves) of 1B-OF-DHīs at the time they had to get something back in return.

I donīt see the oufield with Pierre, Pods and Anderson at the same time. That puts way too much pressure on Brian to produce power numbers in his rookie season.

As far as the Marlins go, not sure why they should get any more in return for Pierre than they did for Castillo...both are similar players in terms of market value IMO. The White Sox are not nearly as desperate as the Yankees or Cubs to address this position.

Tragg
12-03-2005, 09:44 AM
Well now that the Marlins send Luis Castillo to the Twins why not send Willie Harris and a prospect for Juan Pierre with the Sox picking up all of Pierre contract.The Marlins needs a 2nd baseman and need to get rid of payroll.
Because we have no use for Juan Pierre, unless you're talking about replacing Podsednik.
This is NOT your 2003 Marlins.

gr8mexico
12-03-2005, 11:19 AM
Because we have no use for Juan Pierre, unless you're talking about replacing Podsednik.
This is NOT your 2003 Marlins. They need a person to replace Rowand @ CF and Juan has everything Ozzie want in the #2 spot. If Dye goes down next year the Sox will have 2 Rookies in the OF and Podsednik had a groin problem this year that limited him alot down the stretch.