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KyWhiSoxFan
11-30-2005, 11:11 PM
Maybe we already have our No. 2 hitter. According to the Tribune, Guillen is thinking of batting Uribe second. http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-051130soxbrite,1,1314488.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

>>Manager Ozzie Guillen said the Sox would try Juan Uribe in the second spot in the batting order, even though Uribe is known as a free swinger. Uribe, however, tied for the team lead with 11 sacrifices last season and drew 10 of his 34 walks in the final month. Should Uribe fail, Tadahito Iguchi could move back to that spot. Guillen would prefer to bat Iguchi sixth or seventh for his run-producing ability.<<

That would put the lineup something like this:
Pods
Uribe
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Iguchi
AJ
Crede
Anderson

If Crede were to hit like he did that last month and a half, he could move up to five eventually.

nodiggity59
11-30-2005, 11:24 PM
Maybe we already have our No. 2 hitter. According to the Tribune, Guillen is thinking of batting Uribe second. http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-051130soxbrite,1,1314488.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

>>Manager Ozzie Guillen said the Sox would try Juan Uribe in the second spot in the batting order, even though Uribe is known as a free swinger. Uribe, however, tied for the team lead with 11 sacrifices last season and drew 10 of his 34 walks in the final month. Should Uribe fail, Tadahito Iguchi could move back to that spot. Guillen would prefer to bat Iguchi sixth or seventh for his run-producing ability.<<

That would put the lineup something like this:
Pods
Uribe
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Iguchi
AJ
Crede
Anderson

If Crede were to hit like he did that last month and a half, he could move up to five eventually.

Although Uribe is a free swinger, he Ks less than Gooch and also can bunt. His 10 sac flies show he has some bat control, if not as much as Gooch. Neither player walks much. Not a bad idea to try out I guess.

Still I think we don't need another run producer w/ Thome in the fold and hopefully some improvement from Crede. Gooch's advantage over Uribe may be slight, but I think it's big enough to keep him there.

Banix12
11-30-2005, 11:26 PM
I can't think of any reason why this would make sense.

I see they also started up the annual Alex Cintron rumor again.

Norberto7
11-30-2005, 11:29 PM
Ooooh, I really like Uribe, but I love seeing him lying in the weeds at the bottom of the order.

Though, looking at stats, he's really not that much of a different hitter than Iguchi...

Uribe: 481 ab, 121 h, 23 2B, 3 3B, 16 HR, 77 SO, 34 BB, .252 avg.
Iguchi: 511 ab, 142 h, 25 2B, 6 3B, 15 HR, 114 SO, 47 BB, .278 avg.

Honestly, they don't look like very different hitters stat-wise, but don't they give off totally different vibes? Uribe strikes out significantly less, and Iguchi doesn't walk significantly more.

I guess it's not as crazy as it sounds?

duke of dorwood
11-30-2005, 11:29 PM
I'd rather have Uribe bat second than trade for someone just to bat second that weakens the defense

California Sox
11-30-2005, 11:32 PM
It would be interesting to see if teams would give Uribe fastballs to hit or they'd continue to try and make him chase. You throw it in the dirt, you're asking for Pods to take second, but Uribe can do damage on balls around the plate. It would be interesting.

chisox77
11-30-2005, 11:35 PM
I have to think about that one - you know, Uribe could be one of those players that can have a big year - but he has to be more selective. It's not a bad idea, though when I first saw the title of this thread . . . I just wanted to post a huge NO WAY!

:?:

doublem23
11-30-2005, 11:38 PM
I'd rather have Uribe bat second than trade for someone just to bat second that weakens the defense

I agree with that, but I personally prefer to keep Uribe in the 9-hole where he can do his thing.

With Thome and Konerko, we really just need someone who can get on base regularly. Speed is an incentive, but not neccessary.

Etownsox13
11-30-2005, 11:50 PM
No I think leaving Gooch at #2 would be wiser. Uribe swings at too many bad pitches, and we need a guy that will take a pitch batting #2 to allow Pods to steal some bags. Leave Uribe batting 9

HotelWhiteSox
12-01-2005, 12:02 AM
Let him do his thing at the bottom. I always wanted to try Everett at the 2 hole since he said his focus was getting hits and I thought he was a good 2 strike hitter.

I think Iguchi may be the best option. The only other person I can think of is Anderson, but that might not be so smart either.

elrod
12-01-2005, 12:07 AM
Why mess with the 2 hole? Gooch was perfect in that spot as long as Pods had his legs. How many games did we start out 1-0 in the first inning because of: Pods walks, steals second, goes to third on a grounder to the right side, scores on a sac fly? Gooch's bat control doesn't show up in the statistics. Yeah, Uribe has a lot of sac flies, which means he has some discipline at the plate. But Gooch is a proven success. Why mess with it?

The other thing is that Uribe is very inconsistent. There are months where he is awesome. And there are months where he is terrible. Iguchi was fairly steady throughout the season.

wsox3505
12-01-2005, 12:09 AM
Oz will probably use Uribe a majority of the time in the #2 hole, which is fine by me. Not only was he on fire down the stretch and clutch in the post-season, but he did hold his own in 2004 at times batting second. The key here is being able to make contact, situational hitting, not K, sacrifice, and take advantage of fastballs in front of Thome.

As good as Gooch was this season, let's see if he really can improve on his power numbers and avg like everyone says he can. At times, he did look uncomfortable in that spot as indicated by his K ratio. (although not bad for his first year in the US).

I'm a big advocate of giving BA a chance in CF instead of getting Pierre just to bat second, which really wouldnt make much sense batting back to back lefties at the top and sacrificing defense at the same time. Uribe sounds like the right choice to me and if he cant hang, put gooch back in there.

ilsox7
12-01-2005, 12:09 AM
Why mess with the 2 hole? Gooch was perfect in that spot as long as Pods had his legs. How many games did we start out 1-0 in the first inning because of: Pods walks, steals second, goes to third on a grounder to the right side, scores on a sac fly? Gooch's bat control doesn't show up in the statistics. Yeah, Uribe has a lot of sac flies, which means he has some discipline at the plate. But Gooch is a proven success. Why mess with it?

The other thing is that Uribe is very inconsistent. There are months where he is awesome. And there are months where he is terrible. Iguchi was fairly steady throughout the season.

Well, I think the thinking is if they can get someone comprable to what Tad did in the 2 hole, moving Tad down to 6th adds another run producer who can potentially be a .285/23/85.

MyLifePeakedAt21
12-01-2005, 12:13 AM
Best case scenario here is that Anderson eventually becomes our two guy. Kid's got the speed, the high BA for contact, and the potential for a gap shot to drive in Scotty from first. Plus, Igu does give us a little more lumber on the back end (6-hole) and with some adjustment possibly tack on 5-8 extra dingers behind the big boys. In any case, I have confidence in the young kid Anderson and I look forward to him patrolling our outfield. Whether he can fill our two-hole....?

Hey, it's a nice thought. :cool:

kwolf68
12-01-2005, 12:14 AM
Folks this may not be a bad idea. Juan is still young and really made improvements last year. Though he isn't really a speed guy.

But, he'll be hitting behind Pods and in front of Paulie and JT...Ya think he won't get good stuff to hit?

If I'm Juan I'm in a church/mosque/synagogue/or by the freaking ocean side praying to someone/something for this to happen...He could literally add 30 points and 10 homers to his numbers. Juan Uribe? .280, 25, 80....We're talking big business.

Norberto7
12-01-2005, 12:15 AM
But Gooch is a proven success. Why mess with it?

The 2005 White Sox were a proven success, also.

The concerns you raise are valid, but really they are only half the question. Part of it is whether Uribe can do as well as Iguchi in the 2 spot. The other part is, would the move significantly increase Iguchi's production?

If it works, it would be like replacing a 9 hitter with a potent 6 hitter, all with the same personel. In short, if it worked, it would be brilliant.

I'd be about 60/40 against it. I have doubts both ways, but could see it working.

MyLifePeakedAt21
12-01-2005, 12:18 AM
Yes, Juan Uribe can be clutch, but he has thus far been one of the streakiest hitters in baseball. He started to go opposite field in the second half but he swings at two much lower half garbage a majority of time. Juan Uribe would take us out of too many innings.

wsox3505
12-01-2005, 12:20 AM
Yes, Juan Uribe can be clutch, but he has thus far been one of the streakiest hitters in baseball. He started to go opposite field in the second half but he swings at two much lower half garbage a majority of time. Juan Uribe would take us out of too many innings.


i think Hriniak helped his swing out a lot and it showed late in the season. Again, if it doesn't work out after the first couple of months, they can easily put gooch back in there. I just don't want to see KW make an unnecessary move for an overrated player like pierre.

KRS1
12-01-2005, 12:39 AM
Best case scenario here is that Anderson eventually becomes our two guy. Kid's got the speed, the high BA for contact, and the potential for a gap shot to drive in Scotty from first. Plus, Igu does give us a little more lumber on the back end (6-hole) and with some adjustment possibly tack on 5-8 extra dingers behind the big boys. In any case, I have confidence in the young kid Anderson and I look forward to him patrolling our outfield. Whether he can fill our two-hole....?

Hey, it's a nice thought. :cool:

Blah, whered u get that nickname from?

dugwood31
12-01-2005, 01:40 AM
Iguchi's OBP was 40 points higher than Uribe's. Juan's my favorite current Sox player, but with an OBP of barely over .300, he can't hit in front of Thome, Konerko and Dye. That would be a bad move. Assuming about 600 plate appearances for both, that means Iguchi would get on base about 25 more times per year. That's alot in the scheme of things. Until Juan learns a little plate discipline, I think we should consider ourselves lucky to have such a dangerous 9 hitter.

DSpivack
12-01-2005, 03:59 AM
Uribe had 77 K's last year? I would think he would have at least 100, with his sometimes wild swinging.

lostletters
12-01-2005, 04:13 AM
Believe it or not this may make Uribe a better hitter.
He is the type of guy that does better when he is trying to sacrifice, move guys along, hit the opposite way. It is when nobody is one base or when he is trying to hit for power he takes such ugly swings.

The fact is Uribe is pretty good in situational hitting, which is what the number 2 spot is. Last I remember, his first year with the white sox that is where he was, and he did not do to bad a job, until stone fingers, I mean jose valentine, came back and screwed up the good thing willie and uribe had going in 2004.

IlliniSox4Life
12-01-2005, 05:09 AM
I'm really undecided on this. I have to trust Kenny and Ozzie to know what they're doing.

However, my one though is. Look at how good Iguchi did in this role in his first season in the bigs? Shouldn't he be even better next year after having seen a lot of the pitchers and getting used to the league? I guess he could also have a sophomore slump (ala Shingo), but I think he's more likely to get even better.

NorthSideSox72
12-01-2005, 10:45 AM
It would be interesting to see if teams would give Uribe fastballs to hit or they'd continue to try and make him chase. You throw it in the dirt, you're asking for Pods to take second, but Uribe can do damage on balls around the plate. It would be interesting.

This is a really good point. If Pods is on, they can't throw everything in the dirt. And with Thome-Konerko-Dye behind him, they can't just avoid the strike zone, and Juan is a fastball hitter. Juan does hit better when he isn't trying to just hit line drives off the left field foul pole. Plus he can bunt well, he doesn't strike out as much as Gooch (amazingly), and he has a little speed.

I'm starting to warm up to this idea....

Pods
Uribe
Thome
Konerko
Dye
AJ
Gooch
Crede
Anderson

:smile:

Ol' No. 2
12-01-2005, 10:49 AM
This sounds like idle musing on Ozzie's part. Remember last spring when he kept going back and forth between Pods in CF or LF? There may be more moves that will affect this. I say this is going to get sorted out in spring training and not a day sooner.

Frater Perdurabo
12-01-2005, 11:13 AM
Part of the reason Iguchi's K totals were so high is because with Pods on base, he did his job taking pitches - even strikes - but not swinging at them. With Pods on base, opposing pitchers threw fastballs, but Iguchi didn't want to swing at any pitch and risk popping up or grounding out to the shortstop or third baseman. If Iguchi K's but Pods advances during that at bat, it's as good as a sac fly, sac bunt or sac groundout to the right side of the infield. Often, after Pods stole second (or second and third), Iguchi might have a 2-2 count and one more strike would result in the K, making his stats look worse. But the productivity of his at-bat would not be reflected in the stats.

I'm not sure Uribe has the bat control and discipline to be an as effective a #2 hitter as Iguchi. Uribe might go ahead and swing at that tempting fastball with Pods flying towards second. Sure, sometimes he might hit an RBI double - or even a home run. But those RBI doubles and two-run HRs would be more than cancelled out by the number of times Uribe would fly out, line out or ground out sharply to the shortstop or third baseman, wasting the prime scoring opportunity that otherwise might be realized by playing "smart."

Stats alone can't quantify the significance of the sacrifice, which is why Beane-heads don't like them.

caulfield12
12-01-2005, 12:07 PM
This was mentioned in the one of the articles written today as one of the suggestions from OG-KW. Also mentioned that they might be looking at Alex Cintron again as a reserve infielder.

Mentioned Uribe´s sacrifice bunting skills and the fact that he normally hits pretty well to the opposite field. Problems are obvious...not very patient hitter, walks infrequently and doesn´t always make contact. Uribe still is susceptible to breaking pitches on the outside half, especially when he is down in the count.
Really liked the improvement after the ¨crow hop¨ was added late in the season with his front foot as a timing mechanism, but he did not always stick with it.

The article seemed to suggest they would like to try Uribe there and were not opposed to going back to Iguchi if the idea fizzled.

Pods
Uribe
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Iguchi
AJ
Crede
Anderson

That would seem to be the suggested order...with Dye sometimes hitting 3rd instead of Thome, with AJ alternating with Iguchi between LH and RH pitching.

I could also see Iguchi and Anderson paired at the bottom of the order, with Crede hitting 6th or 7th, if his back is healthy.

fuzzy_patters
12-01-2005, 12:11 PM
This was mentioned in the one of the articles written today as one of the suggestions from OG-KW. Also mentioned that they might be looking at Alex Cintron again as a reserve infielder.

Mentioned Uribe´s sacrifice bunting skills and the fact that he normally hits pretty well to the opposite field. Problems are obvious...not very patient hitter, walks infrequently and doesn´t always make contact. Uribe still is susceptible to breaking pitches on the outside half, especially when he is down in the count.
Really liked the improvement after the ¨crow hop¨ was added late in the season with his front foot as a timing mechanism, but he did not always stick with it.

The article seemed to suggest they would like to try Uribe there and were not opposed to going back to Iguchi if the idea fizzled.

Pods
Uribe
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Iguchi
AJ
Crede
Anderson

That would seem to be the suggested order...with Dye sometimes hitting 3rd instead of Thome, with AJ alternating with Iguchi between LH and RH pitching.

I could also see Iguchi and Anderson paired at the bottom of the order, with Crede hitting 6th or 7th, if his back is healthy.

I don't like it. Uribe is not a disciplined enough hitter to bat second. I don't think we want a guy swinging at balls over his head in the two hole.

caulfield12
12-01-2005, 12:19 PM
I don't like it. Uribe is not a disciplined enough hitter to bat second. I don't think we want a guy swinging at balls over his head in the two hole.

Not to mention he can get pull and power hitting happy....is a Carlos Lee streaky.

Iguchi and Uribe could both hit between 20-25 homers this year. Uribe already did that in 2004.

I still am not counting on Iguchi to start hitting 30 homers per seaon in the 6 or 7 slot.

bennyw41
12-01-2005, 12:22 PM
I don't like Thome in the 3 spot.

Tekijawa
12-01-2005, 12:48 PM
I'm Sure this is mostly in Colorado

Batting G AB H R HR RBI AVG OBP SLG OPS
2 147 584 157 103 16 65 269 321 433 755
9 95 287 69 29 8 40 240 282 376 658
8 136 460 123 52 10 64 267 308 422 729


Iguchi
2 131 507 139 72 15 66 274 338 434 772


A lot closer then I would have expected. If Uribe Doesnt bat 2nd I would assume that he would move up to the 8 spot with Anderson batting 9th. Uribe's numbers were his lowest in the 9 spot.

TomBradley72
12-01-2005, 04:52 PM
Not sure the upside Iguchi brings at the bottom of the order vs. Uribe replacing him....Uribe belongs lower in the order where he can do his thing.....

maurice
12-01-2005, 06:26 PM
Ozzie always had a fixation with low-OBP SS batting 2nd. When Ozzie was a low OBP SS, he always wanted to hit at the top of the lineup. When he had Valentin (another low OBP SS), Ozzie wanted to bat him 2nd. We're fortunate that he came to his senses with Iguchi. Hopefully, he leaves Iguchi and Uribe where they are and where they belong.

BV2005
12-01-2005, 10:11 PM
Ozzie is the manager of a Wold Champion team and im sure if he thinks Uribe batting second will help the team than I think we should trust him.

Corlose 15
12-01-2005, 10:24 PM
This is a really intriguing move to me. Uribe seems to be a player thats really athletic and talented and I think he's one of the better fundamental players on the team in terms of bunting and sac flies. Putting that leg step in his swing seemed to help last year.

Whats really interesting to me is this seems like the kind of move that would force Uribe to be patient. I think he's capable of it and it'll be interesting to see what exactly Iguchi could do towards the bottom of the order. I say its at least worth exploring in ST. If it doesn't work out you've got a pretty good 2 hitter in Iguchi.

dugwood31
12-02-2005, 12:00 AM
Ozzie is the manager of a Wold Champion team and im sure if he thinks Uribe batting second will help the team than I think we should trust him.

That would make this message board a lot of fun. My first post in teal!

Lip Man 1
12-02-2005, 01:40 AM
I just don't know about this. A free swinger with a high strike out count in the #2 hole? However he would be seeing more fastballs assuming Posednik is healthy and runs wild like he did in the first half of the 2005 season.

I think the Sox should leave well enough alone. Uribe started to get comfortable in the bottom of the lineup the past six weeks of the season. Don't tinker with it.

If you need or want a #2 hitter that badly go out and get one. There is at least one available and he's playing for the Marlins (for now...)

Lip

TheOldRoman
12-02-2005, 02:24 AM
If you need or want a #2 hitter that badly go out and get one. There is at least one available and he's playing for the Marlins (for now...)

Lip
Are you speaking of Pierre or Castillo? Pierre is a leadoff hitter and Castillo bats 2. Castillo is a great player, but the Sox don't have any room for him. Iguchi is our 2B, so unless Castillo wants to learn to play CF, we don't need him.
As for Pierre, we have enough young outfield talent. We are only losing out by not letting any of them get regular playing experience at the major league level. If Anderson, Owens, or Young are going to be the stars of tomorrow, they need to get experience now. Besides, from what everyone says, Anderson is great defensively. As long as he plays a good CF, we don't need him to hit immediately. I expect much better numbers from Uribe and Crede in 06. With their improvement, the addition or Thome, and the benefit Konerko will see from having protection, our hitting will be fine.

santo=dorf
12-02-2005, 02:32 AM
I just don't know about this. A free swinger with a high strike out count in the #2 hole? However he would be seeing more fastballs assuming Posednik is healthy and runs wild like he did in the first half of the 2005 season.
Lip

:?:
Iguchi struckout 37 more times than Uribe last season.

Banix12
12-02-2005, 03:24 AM
As I ponder this, I'm beginning to think the idea behind this is that Ozzie believes Uribe hits better than he normally does with runners on base and having a guy like Podsednik in front of him, who not only gets on base but also distracts the pitcher, might reap the greatest possible reward from Uribe's bat, add the benefit of batting ahead of Thome, Konerko or Dye and he probably could pull it off.

He certainly seemed to reap a benefit in the beginning of 2004 when he was usually batting ahead of Thomas and behind Rowand or Harris when he batted in the 2 hole.

I'm still not sure I am for the move but I can see why it could work.

nodiggity59
12-02-2005, 03:33 AM
As I ponder this, I'm beginning to think the idea behind this is that Ozzie believes Uribe hits better than he normally does with runners on base and having a guy like Podsednik in front of him, who not only gets on base but also distracts the pitcher, might reap the greatest possible reward from Uribe's bat, add the benefit of batting ahead of Thome, Konerko or Dye and he probably could pull it off.

He certainly seemed to reap a benefit in the beginning of 2004 when he was usually batting ahead of Thomas and behind Rowand or Harris when he batted in the 2 hole.

I'm still not sure I am for the move but I can see why it could work.

It could most definitely work. I could care less about the free swinging b/c Uribe still makes better contact than Iguchi - particularly on fastballs. The alarming part to me is the OBP. Uribe would have to improve there to make himself worthy of the #2 spot. Can he physically do it? Yes. Will he? Who knows.

Banix12
12-02-2005, 03:55 AM
It could most definitely work. I could care less about the free swinging b/c Uribe still makes better contact than Iguchi - particularly on fastballs. The alarming part to me is the OBP. Uribe would have to improve there to make himself worthy of the #2 spot. Can he physically do it? Yes. Will he? Who knows.

Well I certainly don't believe that he is going to all of a sudden start taking more walks however this plan should allow him see better pitches and thus get more hits which in turn would get him on base more.

I don't think he would ever be the prototypical top of the order hitter but maybe he can do a decent enough job.

And I definitely do not doubt that moving Iguchi down in the order will help Iguchi become a better RBI man. He got over 70 RBI in the 2 hole this year all while adjusting to a new league. So certainly the Uribe thing might be worth a trial run

Lip Man 1
12-02-2005, 01:32 PM
Roman:

For what it's worth Ozzie was quoted directly in the papers today saying he had concerns about Anderson's defensive ability. I was talking about Pierre myself. I agree there is no place to play Castillo. Pierre at least has speed, covers ground in center field and has shown the ability to play 'smart-ball' in the past. I agree that batting #2 in a lineup is certainly different then hitting lead off.

It'll be interesting how and what the Sox decide to do with this issue.

Santo:

And Iguchi also showed that he could lay down a bunt as well as hit a sacrifice fly. He appears to have shown more out of what you'd want in a #2 hitter wouldn't you say?

Lip

deck27
12-02-2005, 01:37 PM
No I think leaving Gooch at #2 would be wiser. Uribe swings at too many bad pitches, and we need a guy that will take a pitch batting #2 to allow Pods to steal some bags. Leave Uribe batting 9

I can't see Uribe having ANY success at 2. He can't afford to take hittable pitches for Pods, and he's not a real strong two strike hitter. If I were a prospect in the Sox system I'd be taking bunting practice 24/7 until ST.

santo=dorf
12-02-2005, 01:37 PM
Santo:

And Iguchi also showed that he could lay down a bunt as well as hit a sacrifice fly. He appears to have shown more out of what you'd want in a #2 hitter wouldn't you say?

Lip

Uribe was second in the AL (tied with Crazy Carl) in sac flies.

Iguchi can bunt better and did a great job of hitting the ball to the other side, but if he can become a better hitter like he claims (ie his Japan numbers) by moving down in the order, I'm all for putting Uribe in the #2 spot.

maurice
12-02-2005, 03:33 PM
For what it's worth Ozzie was quoted directly in the papers today saying he had concerns about Anderson's defensive ability.

There's a thread on this. Like much of what Ozzie says, the quote is subject to multiple interpretations. It seems the consensus is that Ozzie meant: "I don't care if he hits, as long as he plays good defense." IMO, this is the probable meaning, since Anderson is very good defensively and (as far as I know) nobody in the organization ever claimed otherwise.

Shift
12-02-2005, 03:44 PM
Twins acquired Castillo today for 2 minor league pitchers.

Optipessimism
12-02-2005, 06:37 PM
Uribe batting second is certainly interesting.

On one hand, batting ahead of one of Dye/Konerko/Thome with Pods on base should give him decent fastballs to hit and if he ever remained somewhat consistent at the plate he could really explode as an offensive player. On the other, if he continues to go through spurts of chasing stuff way off the corner and almost bouncing in the dirt, he could really screw things by failing to move a runner over.

One thing Ozzie may be thinking is that by constantly having a job to do at the plate and often being relied upon to bunt, hit and run, or even hit a sac fly, this will help Juan stay consistent with his approach at the plate. Maybe if Juan focuses more he will be less prone to severe slumps, and even when he is in a slump, he can still feel good about himself as long as he is moving a runner over and making positive outs.

Hmmmm....

Just thinking about the kind of numbers Juan could put up at The Cell with a consistent approach all year long is getting me excited. I say do it, try him out there for a couple months or so, and if he doesn't adjust then do whatever the situation dictates as being necessary at the time.

billyvsox
12-02-2005, 07:19 PM
I hate to say I told you so........

This is a great move, just watch how Uribe excells in the 2 spot!!!