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WSox8404
11-30-2005, 06:02 PM
Now that we resigned Paulie are we still trying to land Pierre? Does anyone have any info as if this is still being looked at? I know Anderson is waiting in the wings but I think having Pierre hit behind Pods in the order would be devastating to staffs around the league. I honestly think that if we land him, we will have a stong chance to repeat. Well I think the way the team stands now we have a good chance. This would only sweeten the deal.

Ol' No. 2
11-30-2005, 06:03 PM
Now that we resigned Paulie are we still trying to land Pierre? Does anyone have any info as if this is still being looked at? I know Anderson is waiting in the wings but I think having Pierre hit behind Pods in the order would be devastating to staffs around the league. I honestly think that if we land him, we will have a stong chance to repeat. Well I think the way the team stands now we have a good chance. This would only sweeten the deal.And they'd need every run they can score because they'd have one of the worst defensive outfields in either league. Pass.

ElDuque26
11-30-2005, 06:06 PM
I am not a fan of any attempt to acquire juan pierre... He is not a good fielder and has a terrible arm. Also, we would probably be forced to give up a young pitcher and that doesnt seem like a good idea...what about the idea of jacque jones playing center for us next year?

WSox8404
11-30-2005, 06:10 PM
I am not a fan of any attempt to acquire juan pierre... He is not a good fielder and has a terrible arm. Also, we would probably be forced to give up a young pitcher and that doesnt seem like a good idea...what about the idea of jacque jones playing center for us next year?

I would like that one better also but how much is he going to get on the open market. I would say 5 to 6 million and I just don't see us spending that much more. And he can also hit second in the lineup behind Pods IMO thus dropping Iguchi down where he belongs. I don't think it is crazy to think that Iguchi can hit 30 ding dongs in a year do any of you?

JermaineDye05
11-30-2005, 06:12 PM
I say find another left handed reliever, and possibly find someone who can hit behind Scotty other then Iguchi so we can use Iguchi in like a number 6 spot, it'd be nice if BA could do that but I don't see that happening but I like out line up now

1. Scotty
2. Tad
3. JD
4. PK
5. Thome
6. AJ
7. Crede
8. BA
9. Juan


I got Brian batting 8 just cause Juan seemed to do real great last year batting 9th in driving in runs

oeo
11-30-2005, 06:13 PM
I thought all these reports were denied a couple of weeks ago and they were not pursuing him at all...or if they were, they stopped.

oeo
11-30-2005, 06:14 PM
I say find another left handed reliever, and possibly find someone who can hit behind Scotty other then Iguchi so we can use Iguchi in like a number 6 spot, it'd be nice if BA could do that but I don't see that happening but I like out line up now

1. Scotty
2. Tad
3. JD
4. PK
5. Thome
6. AJ
7. Crede
8. BA
9. Juan


I got Brian batting 8 just cause Juan seemed to do real great last year batting 9th in driving in runs

But the whole point of getting more speed is to get a #2 hitter. If he did come here, he'd be batting #2...Ozzie wants to move Iguchi to the 6 or 7 spot. So what is the point of getting him if we then need a #2 hitter?

Ol' No. 2
11-30-2005, 06:15 PM
I would like that one better also but how much is he going to get on the open market. I would say 5 to 6 million and I just don't see us spending that much more. And he can also hit second in the lineup behind Pods IMO thus dropping Iguchi down where he belongs. I don't think it is crazy to think that Iguchi can hit 30 ding dongs in a year do any of you?Any FA you'd want will not sign for one year, and it makes no sense to sign someone who's not a primo player (Jones is not) to a multi-year deal when you have that much OF talent ready to go. This is another case where no move is a good move. By June Brian Anderson is going to make everyone glad he's not Juan Pierre or Jacque Jones.

Randar68
11-30-2005, 06:16 PM
3. JD
4. PK
5. Thome


For the LAST TIME:

Dye is not a #3 hitter. Thome will hit 3rd ahead of PK with Dye hitting 5th.

SAY IT WITH ME AGAIN!

filmnews
11-30-2005, 06:16 PM
I think that they should give Brian Anderson a chance. I think he could be pretty good in the outfield. Also, he could hit in the .255 range. That is not bad for a number 8 or 9 player.

Pureone
11-30-2005, 06:18 PM
Can somebody explain to me why so many people seem so fond of Pierre?

The Deacon
11-30-2005, 06:21 PM
For the LAST TIME:

Dye is not a #3 hitter. Thome will hit 3rd ahead of PK with Dye hitting 5th.

SAY IT WITH ME AGAIN!

Yeah, he only hit #3 in games 1-4 of the World Series.....

I do agree that will be thome,pk,dye though. ideal lineup goes L-R-L-R

Ol' No. 2
11-30-2005, 06:23 PM
For the LAST TIME:

Dye is not a #3 hitter. Thome will hit 3rd ahead of PK with Dye hitting 5th.

SAY IT WITH ME AGAIN!You don't think burying the highest OBP player on the team in the 5th spot is a good idea?

Jerome
11-30-2005, 06:23 PM
I do not want Pierre on the team but I do think it is a good idea to move Iguchi down to 6 if possible. He put up good power numbers in Japan, last year batting in the 2 spot really hurt his stats. However, I am plenty happy with this lineup-

Podsednik
Iguchi
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Pierzynski
Anderson
Crede
Uribe

gf2020
11-30-2005, 06:25 PM
I thought all these reports were denied a couple of weeks ago and they were not pursuing him at all...or if they were, they stopped.
From Tuesday's Sun Times:
If Konerko returns, the Sox are expected to press harder to swing a deal with the Marlins to land center fielder Juan Pierre, giving them a speedy No. 2 hitter.
Phil Rogers mentioned it on Chicago Tribune Live a few days ago as well. I don't think it's completely out of the question yet.

IowaSox1971
11-30-2005, 06:27 PM
I never saw Nellie Fox play, but I would think that Iguchi ranks as one of the best No. 2 hitters in team history. Why move him out of that spot? He can draw a walk, bunt, steal a base and advance runners, while also being able to foul off pitches if Podsednik gets a bad jump. And it doesn't hurt that he can hit a key home run when you need him to do that. I don't want us to trade for Pierre.

downstairs
11-30-2005, 06:28 PM
Podsednik
Pierre
Iguchi (Can hit for power now, like he should)
Thome
Konerko
Dye (Still keeping good power after Thome/Konerko)
Pierzynski
Crede
Uribe

That lineup, plus the best pitching staff in baseball... I think we're talking dynasty.

ShoelessJoeS
11-30-2005, 06:32 PM
Podsednik
Pierre
Iguchi (Can hit for power now, like he should)
Thome
Konerko
Dye (Still keeping good power after Thome/Konerko)
Pierzynski
Crede
Uribe

That lineup, plus the best pitching staff in baseball... I think we're talking dynasty.
"We're talkin' minimum 8-peat"

Randar68
11-30-2005, 06:32 PM
I never saw Nellie Fox play, but I would think that Iguchi ranks as one of the best No. 2 hitters in team history. Why move him out of that spot? He can draw a walk, bunt, steal a base and advance runners, while also being able to foul off pitches if Podsednik gets a bad jump. And it doesn't hurt that he can hit a key home run when you need him to do that. I don't want us to trade for Pierre.

Iguchi struck out 115 times or so. Nellie Fox never struck out 20 times in a season!

That being said, Iguchi did all the little things they needed all season. It will be interesting to see what kind of adjustments the league makes to him in 2006 and vice versa.

The Wimperoo
11-30-2005, 06:35 PM
Unless we are trading Pods for Pierre I don't want to see him on the Sox in 06.

IowaSox1971
11-30-2005, 06:37 PM
Iguchi struck out 115 times or so. Nellie Fox never struck out 20 times in a season!

That being said, Iguchi did all the little things they needed all season. It will be interesting to see what kind of adjustments the league makes to him in 2006 and vice versa.

I don't think Nellie Fox ever hit 15 homers in a season, so I think you have to take the good with the bad. I just don't think we're going to find another No. 2 hitter who does as many of the "little things" as Iguchi does, so we might as well just keep him there.

Ol' No. 2
11-30-2005, 06:42 PM
I don't think Nellie Fox ever hit 15 homers in a season, so I think you have to take the good with the bad. I just don't think we're going to find another No. 2 hitter who does as many of the "little things" as Iguchi does, so we might as well just keep him there.Good #2 hitters are a lot harder to find than good #6 hitters. The likelihood of finding someone that can do all the things Iguchi did is remote.

mdep524
11-30-2005, 06:47 PM
I haven't seen Pierre play enough CF to know whether has bad rep defensively comes from having a bad arm or having poor range/reads. If it's only his arm that saddles him as a "bad" CF'er, I wouldn't be as worried. Getting to balls is the most important thing to me. Sure, it sucks to have below average arms in CF and LF, but the trade off offensively would probably be worth it.

The two main questions to me are: a.)would Pierre's offensive contributions be great enough to make this worthwhile? 2003-04 Pierre, maybe. 2005 Pierre...not so much. and b.) what do the Marlins want in return? If this a true salary dump/firesale deal and Pierre came cheap, I'd be more inclined to make a trade. If the Marlins want one of our elite propsects, forget about it. For the moment the Marlins are claiming they want elite prospects for Pierre, but lets see if the price goes down as the winter goes on.

If everything lines up, Pierre would work well in CF for a year until Anderson/Young/Owens are completely ready. He'd be a FA after '06 and the Sox could let him walk or keep him and trade Podsednik, whichever they think brings more value to the team at the point. It's not a bad scenario.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-30-2005, 06:56 PM
For the LAST TIME:

Dye is not a #3 hitter. Thome will hit 3rd ahead of PK with Dye hitting 5th.

SAY IT WITH ME AGAIN!

I was thinking something similar to that depending on whether or not the pitcher is a Lefty or Righty:

Vs. LHP
Pods
Iguchi
Dye
Konerko
Thome
Pierzynski
Crede
Anderson
Uribe

Vs. RHP
Pods
Iguchi
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Pierzynski
Crede
Anderson
Uribe

JB98
11-30-2005, 07:04 PM
Good #2 hitters are a lot harder to find than good #6 hitters. The likelihood of finding someone that can do all the things Iguchi did is remote.

I've got your back on this. The Podsednik-Iguchi combination is a proven winner at the top of the lineup. Why tinker with it? I don't want noodle-armed Pierre. I think Anderson is ready. Let's give him a chance.

The middle of our lineup was the weakness last season. With the addition of Thome and the resigning of Konerko, we've solidified it. The top of the lineup was a strength last season. It will be a strength next season.

veeter
11-30-2005, 07:07 PM
Let's see if OUR prospects can do it. Anderson, Owens, Young...let them compete. Forget about Pierre.

hose
11-30-2005, 07:17 PM
I would hope the Sox DO NOT go after Pierre.

I would trust Ozzie's judgement if he made a push for him though.

ElDuque26
11-30-2005, 07:24 PM
Let's see if OUR prospects can do it. Anderson, Owens, Young...let them compete. Forget about Pierre.

I agree with this, lets keep what we have and see what happens...then worst case scenario= mid season trade...not terrible...best case scenario we have a new superstar!

JermaineDye05
11-30-2005, 07:31 PM
"We're talkin' minimum 8-peat"

"Hey Jim why don't you just play these teams by yourself"

JermaineDye05
11-30-2005, 07:32 PM
For the LAST TIME:

Dye is not a #3 hitter. Thome will hit 3rd ahead of PK with Dye hitting 5th.

SAY IT WITH ME AGAIN!

Dye is not a #3 hitter. Thome will hit 3rd ahead of PK with Dye hitting 5th.

better?

clean
11-30-2005, 07:38 PM
Dye is not a #3 hitter. Thome will hit 3rd ahead of PK with Dye hitting 5th.

better?

Just a thought, I don't think Scotty got thrown out all year attempting to steal 3rd base. With Thome in the 3 hole, this streak probably will not repeat in 06. No doubt it will decrease his attempts.

nodiggity59
11-30-2005, 07:40 PM
Dye is not a #3 hitter. Thome will hit 3rd ahead of PK with Dye hitting 5th.

better?

I like Dye in the 3 hole. Less of an all or nothing approach compared to Thome, which is important w/ having Pods on 2nd so much. Plus, the PK protection maximizes his #s.

The Deacon
11-30-2005, 07:52 PM
Dye is not a #3 hitter. Thome will hit 3rd ahead of PK with Dye hitting 5th.

better?

More accurately, Dye was the #3 hitter in every game of the 2005 playoffs. Dye is not a #3 hitter now that Thome is on board.

ChiSoxLifer
11-30-2005, 07:58 PM
This is the scouting report on Juan P. copied from ESPN.com

"Largely due to the adjustments by opposing pitchers, Pierre didn't come close to defending his first NL stolen-base crown. He was caught a career-high 24 times in 69 attempts and saw his success rate drop from 76 to 65 percent. His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie."

It seems a lot of people don't want him. Why is that? Defensively it looks like he covers a lot of ground. I've heard many times in this forum he has a weak arm but how weak can it be? Most of the time he just has to hit the cutoff man. Offensively, he has a career obp of .355 and a career ba of .305. I've read many times he's one of the best basestealers and best bunters in the NL. He's young and only made 3.8 million last year. So....why doesn't anyone want him?

caulfield12
11-30-2005, 08:06 PM
This is the scouting report on Juan P. copied from ESPN.com

"Largely due to the adjustments by opposing pitchers, Pierre didn't come close to defending his first NL stolen-base crown. He was caught a career-high 24 times in 69 attempts and saw his success rate drop from 76 to 65 percent. His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie."

It seems a lot of people don't want him. Why is that? Defensively it looks like he covers a lot of ground. I've heard many times in this forum he has a weak arm but how weak can it be? Most of the time he just has to hit the cutoff man. Offensively, he has a career obp of .355 and a career ba of .305. I've read many times he's one of the best basestealers and best bunters in the NL. He's young and only made 3.8 million last year. So....why doesn't anyone want him?

There are mixed feelings about this trade, because Pierre had a down year in 2005. I think being around this team would re-energize his game personally....and we could sign him to a one-year deal for $4-4.5 million with Anderson waiting in the wings for 2007.

Pierre would definitely give us a fast and versatile top of the order. I worry about Thome hitting third and opening up that baseline for the catcher when Scott goes for third....but it was not a hugely common enough situation to preclude Thome from hitting third.

The problem is that the rumored trade with the Marlins has us dealing Owens-Sweeney and Neal Cotts for Pierre, and that is too high a price to pay. I wouldn´t even trade Cotts alone for Pierre, because the Marlins don´t want to pay Pierre...another way to look at this deal, would you trade Neal Cotts to get Aaron Rowand? I wouldn´t even think about making that move, especially since Pierre would essentially be a one-year rental.

delben91
11-30-2005, 08:09 PM
There are only 2 more things I'd like to see:

1. A better LH out of the pen to replace Marte. But I don't think said lefty exists/is available, so this one is unlikely to happen.

2. A backup, preferably left hand hitting, infielder. Someone to spell Crede if his back acts up. I think Mueller would be perfect, because he could fill in at first too. Insurance for Crede and to an extent Paulie/Thome.

getonbckthr
11-30-2005, 08:14 PM
I said this before and everyone disagreed with me, but i'll say it again, Ryan Freel. He is the perfect player, and the player that fits Ozzie's demand. He is a great utility guy who could be your CF, bat 2nd and for a game every week could play 3rd to rest Crede, 2b for Gooch and SS for Uribe and you can break Anderson in easy with a CF platoon. This way Timo wouldn't be a neccesity cause Anderson would be a 4th OF but still play half the games. A games played breakdown around here:

Freel (CF-100 games,3rd ss and 2b 5 games each.)
Anderson (CF-62 gms, LF 10 gms, RF 10 gms)

getonbckthr
11-30-2005, 08:16 PM
There are only 2 more things I'd like to see:

1. A better LH out of the pen to replace Marte. But I don't think said lefty exists/is available, so this one is unlikely to happen.

2. A backup, preferably left hand hitting, infielder. Someone to spell Crede if his back acts up. I think Mueller would be perfect, because he could fill in at first too. Insurance for Crede and to an extent Paulie/Thome.
1) Mike Myers had a good year last year in Boston, will not cost more and is from Arlington Heights, Illinois.
This would allow us to deal Marte for a couple minor leaguers.
2) Like in my previous post, Ryan Freel.

MadetoOrta
11-30-2005, 08:21 PM
For the LAST TIME:

Dye is not a #3 hitter. Thome will hit 3rd ahead of PK with Dye hitting 5th.

SAY IT WITH ME AGAIN!

Booyah. Just did. :bandance:

caulfield12
11-30-2005, 08:23 PM
There are only 2 more things I'd like to see:

1. A better LH out of the pen to replace Marte. But I don't think said lefty exists/is available, so this one is unlikely to happen.

2. A backup, preferably left hand hitting, infielder. Someone to spell Crede if his back acts up. I think Mueller would be perfect, because he could fill in at first too. Insurance for Crede and to an extent Paulie/Thome.

Freel is in the prime of his career and he´s still very affordable to the Reds. Why on earth would they want to give him up, and what do the Sox have to trade to get him? Please do not respond with Harris, Marte and El Duque.

There´s no way Cincy deals him to us. Now, if we want to take on Dunn or Griffey, they might listen.

We also have Ross Gload as an internal candidate...we shall see how well he does in Spring Training, and whether Willie Harris comes to camp with us, or Timo.

Rounding_Third
11-30-2005, 08:33 PM
For the LAST TIME:

Dye is not a #3 hitter. Thome will hit 3rd ahead of PK with Dye hitting 5th.

SAY IT WITH ME AGAIN!

I think Ozzie might want to flip-flop the order depending on the pitcher being L or R. Konerko will stay at #4 with Dye & Thome switching between 3 & 5 and A.J & Crede/Iguchi at 6 & 7 - Iguchi if they move him down.

WSoxFanForever
11-30-2005, 08:39 PM
Can somebody explain to me why so many people seem so fond of Pierre? I really think it's because he's so fast. I do think he and Pods would scare other teams on the basepaths, but I don't want any liabilities in the outfield. Let the Cubs have him. They seem to really be in love with the guy.

duke of dorwood
11-30-2005, 08:45 PM
Screw Pierre-spend that $ to get AJ long term

maurice
11-30-2005, 09:15 PM
Thome will hit 3rd ahead of PK with Dye hitting 5th.

I hope you're right, but Ozzie isn't known for consistently logical decision-making. Also, I seem to recall a number of quotes indicating that Thome was acquired to "hit behind Konerko."
:?:

nccwsfan
11-30-2005, 09:18 PM
KW's already on record saying that if Konerko re-signed that he'll only make minor tweaks. I was hoping to get Pierre in here, but at this point it doesn't make much sense- the lineup is pretty solid from 1-9, and with Anderson, Owens, Young, et al waiting in the wings we have flexibility to see what works in the OF.

Podsednik
Iguchi
Konerko (R)
Thome (L)
Dye (R)
Pierzynski (L)
Crede
Anderson
Uribe

Iguchi is and should be our #2 hitter. It doesn't make sense to move him to #6 with our 3/4/5- keep him where he is and have him move Pods over to 2nd/3rd again and again and again...it didn't break so let's not fix it.

Other than a backup IF I don't see much of a need to tweak this roster much further.

batmanZoSo
11-30-2005, 09:33 PM
I don't think Nellie Fox ever hit 15 homers in a season, so I think you have to take the good with the bad. I just don't think we're going to find another No. 2 hitter who does as many of the "little things" as Iguchi does, so we might as well just keep him there.

To compare strikeout totals from those two eras is inane anyway. Joe DiMaggio routinely had more home runs than strikeouts in a season. Bonds might have done that, I'm not sure, but that's pretty much unheard of otherwise nowadays. Of course Iguchi's not Nellie Fox, but he is a pretty damn good 2 hitter, arguably one of the best in the game. He's got a lot of power upside, though and with Thome and Konerko hitting back to back, I don't see us playing for one run nearly as often as we did last year. I question that we need a prototypical, nuts and bolts number two hitter. Anderson I think could potentially be the guy and that would be enough in my opinion. Whether he's truly ready to play every day--and particularly in that tough spot--remains to be seen. If KW goes outside the organization, just someone like Randy Winn in an average year is more than enough (I don't expect him to hit 20 homers again).

ChiSoxPatF
11-30-2005, 09:44 PM
LF Pods (L)
CF Gathright (L)
1B Paulie (R)
DH Thome (L)
RF Dye (R)
2B Gooch (R)
C Pierzynski (L)
3B Crede (R)
SS Uribe (R)

comiskey2000
11-30-2005, 09:56 PM
Bringing back Kenny Lofton would be a great fit for centerfield in '06. Mabye not as good as pierre but a good left handed hitting veteran.

Chisox003
11-30-2005, 10:00 PM
Bringing back Kenny Lofton would be a great fit for centerfield in '06. Mabye not as good as pierre but a good left handed hitting veteran.
:o:

slavko
11-30-2005, 10:06 PM
Can somebody explain to me why so many people seem so fond of Pierre?

Take it from your bud Slavko, many posters here think everyone else's bozos are always better than our bozos. It's especially true when our bozo is young and the other bozo is a bit older. Learn it.

Tragg
11-30-2005, 10:13 PM
Take it from your bud Slavko, many posters here think everyone else's bozos are always better than our bozos. It's especially true when our bozo is young and the other bozo is a bit older. Learn it.
Bingo - and even more true when that player lent a hand as a Marlin in beating the Cubs three years ago.

We have a minor league system, stacked with quality CF prospects. So why would we want to trade a couple of them for the Tampa Bay Devil Ray prospect? His whopping .316 OBP? His 5% walk rate (which about as bad as you can do). Maybe it's his zero homers in 200+ at bats. Hell, I'd be shocked if Anderson can't top this player's production.
Because he can steal? Or maybe get caught stealing with Thome and Konerko coming up?
I don't know what kind of defender his is, but Pierre is one of the worst CF in baseball, whether you measure by range or arm strength. That would take us back to the days we were trying to leave behind - a good team with some hitters, starting pitching, bad D.

Give the job to whomever wins it in the spring out of of YOung, Andreson, Borchard et al the job. We might consider improving our bench from Timo Perez, but not with a bad hitter like Gaithright.

Stoky44
11-30-2005, 10:33 PM
I really don't want Pierre. If Anderson is as fast as A-Row, then we are at the same situation as last year. Pierre has a weak arm, much like Pods. Plus lets save some cash for the free agent pitchers next year.

Brian26
11-30-2005, 10:37 PM
Bringing back Kenny Lofton would be a great fit for centerfield in '06.

Ugh. I don't want that guy anywhere near the Sox. He quit on the team in May of 2002.

munchman33
11-30-2005, 10:44 PM
LF Pods (L)
CF Gathright (L)
1B Paulie (R)
DH Thome (L)
RF Dye (R)
2B Gooch (R)
C Pierzynski (L)
3B Crede (R)
SS Uribe (R)

Didn't Ozzie and Kenny already say Dye would be the #3 hitter to start the year next year?

getonbckthr
11-30-2005, 10:58 PM
Didn't Ozzie and Kenny already say Dye would be the #3 hitter to start the year next year?
Jim Thome kind of negates that comment.

munchman33
12-01-2005, 07:23 AM
Jim Thome kind of negates that comment.

Um. That comment was made after the Thome trade.

DaleJRFan
12-01-2005, 08:16 AM
Can somebody explain to me why so many people seem so fond of Pierre?

Because he wears high socks. Everyone loves the high socks.

nevr say dye sox
12-01-2005, 09:14 AM
Chicagosports.com says the Sox may be intrested in Alex Cintron. Switch hitter, for the number 2 spot. I don't Pierre would be bad to split time with Anderson. Keep him for one year and let Anderson work his way in slowly. If Anderson seems to be solid, trade Pierre before the trade deadline.

MiamiSpartan
12-01-2005, 10:03 AM
I have watched Pierre play down here. True he does not have a great arm, but he covers a lot of ground in a HUGE Center Field area in Pro Player/Dolphin Stadium. He hits for average (off year this past year), and steals a ton of bases. All that being said, I think I'd like to see what Anderson can do in left and keep Pods in CF....

Randar68
12-01-2005, 10:17 AM
Didn't Ozzie and Kenny already say Dye would be the #3 hitter to start the year next year?

That would be moronic to say the least. They said Frank might be asked to bunt last year around this time.

It ain't gonna happen. Thome will be #3, Konerko #4. Dye does nothing for the team at #3.

vafan
12-01-2005, 10:21 AM
I hate the idea of Juan Pierre. AAACK!

Here's the much better choice. BRIAN GILES.

If the Sox can find another $8-9 million/year for 3 years they would assure themselves not only of another trip to the playoffs (if Cleveland is better, they might get the wild card, but not the division), but position the team for more WS glory.

By re-signing Konerko, the Sox have already replaced Everett with Thome at DH. That should add 40 runs to the Sox offense. (Everett created 65.2 runs for the Sox (4.48 RC27); Thome in 2004 when healthy created 114.7 runs for the Phillies (8.05 RC27); you have to adjust, however, b/c Everett didn't play full time.)

If the Sox added Giles for LF and moved Pods back to CF, they could add another 40 runs. (Giles created 116 runs for the Padres last year (7.68 RC27) - 13th in baseball and ahead of PK, even with a terrible hitters park at home; Rowand created 76 runs for the Sox (4.54 RC27) - 99th in baseball.)

If, instead, the Sox use Anderson or Jerry Owens in CF, there is little doubt that neither will be able to even match Rowand's limited production in their first full year. The result would be a Sox offense with a boost by inserting Thome for Everett, but a subtraction by inserting Anderson/Owens for Rowand.

Doesn't it make sense to try to increase the offensive production now that there is an opening in the outfield?

There would still be plenty of work for a 4th outfielder (with Perez gone) like Anderson, while Owens and Chris Young could move up to AAA. Anderson could get 200+ ABs subbing for Pods against lefties, and giving a rest to Giles and Dye. He would also get into a lot of games as a LIDP.

The Sox would have transformed their offense from one with a terrible on base percentage, to one that can get on base and slug with the most offensive minded teams, without sacrificing the ability to manufacture runs. And they would have great R/L balance.

This my dream lineup for 2006:

L Pods CF
R Iguchi 2B
L Giles LF
R Konerko 1B
L Thome DH
R Dye RF
L Pierzynski C
R Crede 3B
R Uribe SS

Bench: Widger, Ozuna, Anderson. Harris and Gload are possibles, but not certainties.

Lip Man 1
12-01-2005, 01:59 PM
The reasoning for getting Pierre is that he has the potential and something of a track record to hit around .290 with 50 steals or so. Whether he can handle the bat like a prototypical #2 hitter remains to be seen. I don't have the answer to that point, perhaps someone else does.

What might be interesting though should the Sox get him (and all indications seem to show they are potentially thinking about it) is does he really have to hit in the #2 position?

Ozzie apparently wants someone with speed to follow Posednik but when I talked about this with Roland Hemond, he said that should this come to pass he'll talk to Ozzie about using Pierre #9. Like what Hemond did with Rudy Law and Julio Cruz on the 1983 team. Roland loves the idea of basically having lead off hitters at the top and bottom of the batting order.

Lip

Realist
12-01-2005, 02:10 PM
El Duque, Borchard, Marte and Young for Pierre [or some combination] - if that doesn't work out, sign Damon to a minor league contract and let him fight it out for a job.

Optipessimism
12-01-2005, 05:01 PM
Chicagosports.com says the Sox may be intrested in Alex Cintron. Switch hitter, for the number 2 spot.

I'd love that move. For some reason he just seems like a player that the Sox could turn around, and if KW got him cheaply he could be yet another steal. Plus it makes financial sense and strengthens our bench.

Instead of paying more for a declining Mueller, we get Cintron who can play SS and bat switch at the top of the lineup. When Crede is hurting, move Uribe to 3B and stick Cintron at SS. If the Sox were really thinking of trying Uribe in the 2 hole instead of Iguchi, Cintron's presence would allow him to move out of that spot without having to automatically put Iguchi back in it if he is producing lower in the order.

The last time I heard the DBacks were only listening to offers from teams who would make him a starter, but at least here he'd get some good playing time. The only problem is we already have Pablo Ozuna, and I highly doubt Cintron could play a better 2B than Willie.

Optipessimism
12-01-2005, 05:05 PM
El Duque, Borchard, Marte and Young for Pierre [or some combination] - if that doesn't work out, sign Damon to a minor league contract and let him fight it out for a job.

Young for Pierre?????? Where's the bong pic? And why would they want El Duque when they have so many young arms? Pierre for Marte is an even trade IMO, close salary wise, both near the end of their deals, and both have been huge contributors but are coming off down years. In fact, if the 2003 Marte ever returned I don't know if I'd trade him for any version of Pierre. If the Marlins are asking more than that, screw 'em. Besides, I'm kind of excited to see what our young first round CF could do with a full year in the MLB.

Tragg
12-01-2005, 05:33 PM
El Duque, Borchard, Marte and Young for Pierre [or some combination] - if that doesn't work out, sign Damon to a minor league contract and let him fight it out for a job.
Where's the teal police when you need them. Pierre is nothing close to a top-level ballplayer. Can't walk, can't hit with power, can't cover ground in the field, and can't throw. He'd be good as a backup left fielder.

Trading Young for Pierre would be the worst trade in history. I wouldn't trade any of those guys solo for Pierre, much less as a group, except for maybe Borchard or maybe Marte (and that is if we had a left reliever we could sign).

Taliesinrk
12-01-2005, 05:46 PM
Where's the teal police when you need them. Pierre is nothing close to a top-level ballplayer. Can't walk, can't hit with power, can't cover ground in the field, and can't throw. He'd be good as a backup left fielder.

Trading Young for Pierre would be the worst trade in history. I wouldn't trade any of those guys solo for Pierre, much less as a group, except for maybe Borchard or maybe Marte (and that is if we had a left reliever we could sign).

You're almost 100% right...

However, Borchard for Pierre sure sounds nice...

On a side note.. anyone else find it interesting that when you highlight pink (not deep pink) text with your mouse, the color turns to teal? rather ironic..

delben91
12-01-2005, 06:07 PM
I hate the idea of Juan Pierre. AAACK!

Here's the much better choice. BRIAN GILES.



Don't know if anyone mentioned this, but Giles resigned with the Padres yesterday. It was announced shortly after Konerko's signing.

caulfield12
12-01-2005, 07:01 PM
Where's the teal police when you need them. Pierre is nothing close to a top-level ballplayer. Can't walk, can't hit with power, can't cover ground in the field, and can't throw. He'd be good as a backup left fielder.

Trading Young for Pierre would be the worst trade in history. I wouldn't trade any of those guys solo for Pierre, much less as a group, except for maybe Borchard or maybe Marte (and that is if we had a left reliever we could sign).

The speculated trade is Sweeney-Owens-Young (pick one) AND N. Cotts for Pierre.

The only trade I would consider would be Owens and Marte for Pierre, with the White Sox only signing Pierre for one season.

The White Sox would lose about $1.5-2 million on the salary swap and end up with a more competitive offensive line-up for defending the championship.

OTOH, they would weaken their bullpen, and going by some of these contracts (Ryan, Wagner, Howry, Eyre)...god knows that keeping Marte might be even a better option at this point.

With Trevor Hoffman and Tom Gordon being chased with millions at their ages, anything is possible this offseason with pitching.

I really believe Cleveland is going to wait too long and end up severely overpaying for a closer to replace Wickman. That will leave them with even less flexibility to sign Millwood and-or Elarton, not to mention quashing the proposed Manny Ramirez deal.

WikdChiSoxFan
12-01-2005, 07:35 PM
Ideally,

Aaron grows a handlebar mustache and dies his hair red...shows up for spring training as a walk-on.

Phillies mourn the loss of their AWOL CF.

...But seriously, I don't mind Neo in the field...I just wish ScoPo could field better, it seriously takes him way too long to read the ball off the bat. Added speed would benefit, but I like where we are at...I've stopped crying myself to sleep after the Rowand trade...

Now...a Sun-Times article proposed that the Marlins probably want to move Castillo...what do you think about that? Speed is there, Average is there, but Iguchi leaves the Sox? I'm not sure how I feel about it. The only time I really watched Castillo play was when the Marlins won it all...and that Pierre, Castillo combo was deadly. Beckett, Pierre, and Castillo could have won it by themselves.


http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-deluca01.html

caulfield12
12-01-2005, 07:44 PM
Ideally,

Aaron grows a handlebar mustache and dies his hair red...shows up for spring training as a walk-on.

Phillies mourn the loss of their AWOL CF.

...But seriously, I don't mind Neo in the field...I just wish ScoPo could field better, it seriously takes him way too long to read the ball off the bat. Added speed would benefit, but I like where we are at...I've stopped crying myself to sleep after the Rowand trade...

Now...a Sun-Times article proposed that the Marlins probably want to move Castillo...what do you think about that? Speed is there, Average is there, but Iguchi leaves the Sox? I'm not sure how I feel about it. The only time I really watched Castillo play was when the Marlins won it all...and that Pierre, Castillo combo was deadly. Beckett, Pierre, and Castillo could have won it by themselves.


http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-deluca01.html


Castillo does not make sense with the way the roster is currently situated.

We keep trying to replace players (Furcal for Uribe, now Castillo for Iguchi) but KW is not going to deconstruct this roster in that fashion.

Castillo is a speed player, and he is getting pretty close to that point in his career where his steal totals and overall game will start to fade.

He is certainly not going to be acquired to play CF.

That leaves 3B and the Crede uncertainty....but only a SS would make sense, moving Uribe to third. But that still doesnt make so much sense to those who watched the final game of the WS. And Furcal cannot be added to the already $85-90 million payroll.

MiamiSpartan
12-01-2005, 10:49 PM
Castillo is in consistant. He can hit for a ton of average, and then fall off the planet. Good defense, tho...

DickAllen72
12-01-2005, 11:01 PM
The speculated trade is Sweeney-Owens-Young (pick one) AND N. Cotts for Pierre.

The only trade I would consider would be Owens and Marte for Pierre, with the White Sox only signing Pierre for one season.



No way. That would be a terrible trade for the Sox. If the Sox really want Pierre, I would only trade Marte straight up for him.

Personally, I wouldn't mind going into the season with a platoon of Anderson/Owens in CF.

Tragg
12-01-2005, 11:35 PM
The speculated trade is Sweeney-Owens-Young (pick one) AND N. Cotts for Pierre.

And that trade is an outrage. You don't give up young talent like that for average ballplayers like Juan Pierre. Hell, we didn't give up that talent for an elite hitter like Thome;

Lip Man 1
12-02-2005, 01:46 AM
A few thoughts:

NCCW:

For what it's worth Rick Hawn was asked directly by Chuck Garfein if Anderson would be the starting center fielder. Hahn's reply was "for now...but you never know..." Read into that what you will.

Kenny Williams has also been directly quoted as saying he'd like for the media to 'back off' and give the team some space to get on with other things. That he likes to fly 'under the radar' and that it's hard to do that under constant scrutiny. His choice of words was interesting to say the least.

Tragg:

Not specifically talking about the proposal but the Sox have what is generally regarded as four top quality outfield prospects in Anderson, Young, Owens and Sweeney. They can't possibly use all of them. Someone (or two) sooner or later is going to be traded. It's just a matter or who and when. The Sox will determine who they can get the most for and either this off season or the next you'll see them start to deal them. It's simply the law of numbers.

Lip

Tragg
12-02-2005, 08:56 AM
Tragg:

Not specifically talking about the proposal but the Sox have what is generally regarded as four top quality outfield prospects in Anderson, Young, Owens and Sweeney. They can't possibly use all of them. Someone (or two) sooner or later is going to be traded. It's just a matter or who and when. The Sox will determine who they can get the most for and either this off season or the next you'll see them start to deal them. It's simply the law of numbers.

Lip
So you propose solving this numbers problem by trading an outfield prospect for.....yet ANOTHER outfielder? And one who is average offensively and poor defensively?

I have no problem with trades. But trade for GOOD players; and certainly with a prospect with the upside potential of Young, you don't throw that away on a mediocre ballplayer to temporarily fill a hole. All that approach does is ensure that you'll always have holes, and at best mediocre ballplayers with which to fill them.

Bucky F. Dent
12-02-2005, 09:45 AM
I hope all this Pierre talk is just smoke.

We've got quality outfield talent in the minors right now.

IMHO, KW needs to spend the rest of the winter bolstering the bullpen. Duque is old, Dusty is in pain, and Marte is inconsistent. Save your resources for improving the bullpen, Kenny.

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 10:52 AM
So you propose solving this numbers problem by trading an outfield prospect for.....yet ANOTHER outfielder? And one who is average offensively and poor defensively?

I have no problem with trades. But trade for GOOD players; and certainly with a prospect with the upside potential of Young, you don't throw that away on a mediocre ballplayer to temporarily fill a hole. All that approach does is ensure that you'll always have holes, and at best mediocre ballplayers with which to fill them.

I think there´s a pretty good possibility they might convert Sweeney to an infielder, because of the surplus of OF talent and the fact that he´s not a CFer and won´t hit for enough power for a corner spot on a team with one speed player.

Obviously, 1B would be the choice. Supposedly Sweeney is a good athlete and has a strong arm...he might be asked to convert to 2B or 3B, depending on what happens with Crede and Josh Fields and Scott Boras.

He could be a Mark Grace type of 1B with 17-22 homer power or perhaps a devastating hitter at 2B...just don´t know if he could ever project to handle that position defensively in terms of quickness, range, turning the DP, etc.

Frater Perdurabo
12-02-2005, 11:35 AM
I think there´s a pretty good possibility they might convert Sweeney to an infielder, because of the surplus of OF talent and the fact that he´s not a CFer and won´t hit for enough power for a corner spot on a team with one speed player.

Obviously, 1B would be the choice. Supposedly Sweeney is a good athlete and has a strong arm...he might be asked to convert to 2B or 3B, depending on what happens with Crede and Josh Fields and Scott Boras.

He could be a Mark Grace type of 1B with 17-22 homer power or perhaps a devastating hitter at 2B...just don´t know if he could ever project to handle that position defensively in terms of quickness, range, turning the DP, etc.

Umm, Sweeney fields left-handed. He's not going to be asked to play second base, shortstop or third base.

http://www.barons.com/

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 12:59 PM
Umm, Sweeney fields left-handed. He's not going to be asked to play second base, shortstop or third base.

http://www.barons.com/

But where, exactly, is Sweeney going to play? Young and Anderson would have to hit 25-30 homers a piece to make up for Sweeney´s power deficit and lack of stolen bases.

Offensively, his game is best suited for second base, almost ideally. Obviously, he would not be able to turn the DP there, lol, but he will have to play LF, RF or DH-1B. The Mariners are having similar problems with Michael Morse....he´s not their best SS now, but I don´t think he will hit for enough power for LF, nor will he pick up many steals.

Randar68
12-02-2005, 01:01 PM
But where, exactly, is Sweeney going to play? Young and Anderson would have to hit 25-30 homers a piece to make up for Sweeney´s power deficit and lack of stolen bases.

Offensively, his game is best suited for second base, almost ideally. Obviously, he would not be able to turn the DP there, lol, but he will have to play LF, RF or DH-1B. The Mariners are having similar problems with Michael Morse....he´s not their best SS now, but I don´t think he will hit for enough power for LF, nor will he pick up many steals.

He is a corner OF'er or a 1B, that's it. If your CF'er hits 30+ HR's and you have power at 1B and DH, you can afford to have guys who produce things like .300-15 with great defense or lead-off types playing LF...

If your CF'er is a .280-13 #7 hitter, you had better get more production out of RF and LF...

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 01:08 PM
He is a corner OF'er or a 1B, that's it. If your CF'er hits 30+ HR's and you have power at 1B and DH, you can afford to have guys who produce things like .300-15 with great defense or lead-off types playing LF...

If your CF'er is a .280-13 #7 hitter, you had better get more production out of RF and LF...

Therein lies the problem....let´s say Jerry Owens surprises everyone and wins the starting CF job-2nd spot in the line-up and B. Anderson is sent back to Charlotte.

Ultimately, Sweeney has no place on a team with Pods and Owens in the OF at the same time.

Fortunately, we also have Anderson and Young that should be able to put up enough power numbers to cover for him. Sweeney is drawing comparisons to Palmeiro and Olerud due to his sweet swing and lack of power (in the minors)....and OG really seems like this young kid, from ST in 2004 on.

I guess the ideal scenario would be to replace a more expensive and aging Pods in a couple of seasons with Owens in LF doing the same types of things...Young in CF...Anderson in RF. Ultimately, you need Owens´speed and Sweeney is now double-blocked by Thome and PK at 1B and DH.

That leaves, what, 3B? Most likely, we will have to trade him unless he becomes a better hitter than Anderson at the MLB level. Anderson has more raw athleticism, which fits into the new White Sox mode of thinking moreso than Sweeney IMO.

Lip Man 1
12-02-2005, 01:15 PM
Tragg:

Most items that I have read or seen are saying Pierre would only be for a few years until one of the top prospects are ready to take over the position. It apparently gives the Sox flexibility right now in trying to increase their chances of repeating in 2006 without tying them down long term and if for whatever reasons the top prospects all go 'bust' (which is certainly possible) then the Sox have the option of retaining Pierre say for a longer time period.

If it were me and I was Kenny I'd rank the four in order of success and then see what Florida would want. Perhaps the #4 prospect plus someone else from another position and I'd certainly think about it long and hard.

Also there was a line in the Daily Southtown today along the lines of Ozzie keeps insisting that the Sox will have a new #2 hitter this year and also expresses concerns about Anderson's defensive ability.

Lip

Randar68
12-02-2005, 01:18 PM
Therein lies the problem....let´s say Jerry Owens surprises everyone and wins the starting CF job-2nd spot in the line-up and B. Anderson is sent back to Charlotte.

Ultimately, Sweeney has no place on a team with Pods and Owens in the OF at the same time.

Fortunately, we also have Anderson and Young that should be able to put up enough power numbers to cover for him. Sweeney is drawing comparisons to Palmeiro and Olerud due to his sweet swing and lack of power (in the minors)....and OG really seems like this young kid, from ST in 2004 on.

I guess the ideal scenario would be to replace a more expensive and aging Pods in a couple of seasons with Owens in LF doing the same types of things...Young in CF...Anderson in RF. Ultimately, you need Owens´speed and Sweeney is now double-blocked by Thome and PK at 1B and DH.

That leaves, what, 3B? Most likely, we will have to trade him unless he becomes a better hitter than Anderson at the MLB level. Anderson has more raw athleticism, which fits into the new White Sox mode of thinking moreso than Sweeney IMO.

Well, that is assuming all 4 become valuable MLB'ers and that they don't find a leadoff man at 2B or SS in the same time frame. It also assumes both PK and Thome not only stay healthy, but aren't traded.

That's a lot of assumptions being made projecting a line-up that is at least 2 years down the road. They may deal someone to open a path or acquire pitching, etc...

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 01:23 PM
Tragg:

Most items that I have read or seen are saying Pierre would only be for a few years until one of the top prospects are ready to take over the position. It apparently gives the Sox flexibility right now in trying to increase their chances of repeating in 2006 without tying them down long term and if for whatever reasons the top prospects all go 'bust' (which is certainly possible) then the Sox have the option of retaining Pierre say for a longer time period.

If it were me and I was Kenny I'd rank the four in order of success and then see what Florida would want. Perhaps the #4 prospect plus someone else from another position and I'd certainly think about it long and hard.

Also there was a line in the Daily Southtown today along the lines of Ozzie keeps insisting that the Sox will have a new #2 hitter this year and also expresses concerns about Anderson's defensive ability.

Lip

There´s a thread somewhere around here about that comment...there´s two ways to read it, he doesn´t care about the offense (as long as the team is winning, as with Crede and Uribe and first four months in 2005) as long as his defense is solid...or he actually has concerns about Brian´s defense at the MLB level at CF as opposed to LF or RF.

I haven´t read many criticisms of Anderson, and I really doubt OG would go after Brian through the media. Anderson is certainly a better CF than Owens....or Owens would have played CF over Chris Young in Birmingham.

Fenway
12-02-2005, 02:07 PM
The last time Juan Pierre played center field in Yankee Stadium, he helped the Marlins win the 2003 World Series.
Now, Pierre could be returning to The Bronx as the Yankees’ center-fielder. The cash-dumping Marlins have asked for lefty Sean Henn and right-handed reliever Scott Proctor for Pierre, and the Yankees didn’t reject the offer.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58166.htm

caulfield12
12-02-2005, 04:03 PM
The last time Juan Pierre played center field in Yankee Stadium, he helped the Marlins win the 2003 World Series.
Now, Pierre could be returning to The Bronx as the Yankees’ center-fielder. The cash-dumping Marlins have asked for lefty Sean Henn and right-handed reliever Scott Proctor for Pierre, and the Yankees didn’t reject the offer.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/58166.htm

Proctor has a pretty good arm...dont knwo much about Henn.

The kid I would like to add is the 7th-8th inning set-up man from Toronto, but he would cost us too much....and we already have Politte, Hermanson and Jenks, not to mention Vizcaino.