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Taz
11-30-2005, 11:17 AM
I'm sure this has been discussed inside various threads related to payroll or lineups, etc...

But it seems everyone has already settled into the idea that Frank will not be back with the Sox next year...

Is this really what everyone thinks?

Or is there a way for Frank to come back and contribute to the team in 06?

Frater Perdurabo
11-30-2005, 11:22 AM
I think that if Frank is healthy, there is room for him on the roster and at the plate on the White Sox, even if Konerko signs and Thome is the primary DH. Others disagree with my opinion.

I believe that there is much to be gained by having the greatest hitter ever to play for the franchise on the team, even in a limited role.

Chicken Dinner
11-30-2005, 11:23 AM
We'll see what happens with PK. Nothing is certain yet.

Flight #24
11-30-2005, 11:25 AM
If Konerko's gone, Frank is almost ceratinly back. If Konerko is back, then it'll depend on a)how much time he needs to get fully healthy and b)howwilling he is to take a reserve role for at least a year. A & b are obviously interlinked, but realistically the only way he's back is if he knows he can only play part-time in '06 and figures better to do that with the Sox and win than somewhere else.

Deuce
11-30-2005, 11:26 AM
If Paul Konerko comes back, Frank is gone. If he is healthy, he is not going to want to warm pine for the Sox. His main goal is to reach 500 homers, and he isn't going to get that unless he starts.

Ol' No. 2
11-30-2005, 11:26 AM
I'm sure this has been discussed inside various threads related to payroll or lineups, etc...

But it seems everyone has already settled into the idea that Frank will not be back with the Sox next year...

Is this really what everyone thinks?

Or is there a way for Frank to come back and contribute to the team in 06?This is going to come down to what Frank wants. If he wants to come back to the Sox, I don't see the Sox saying they have no room for him. If he displaces Timo Perez or Joe Borchard or whoever next year's tallest midget turns out to be, I don't think too many people would say that's not a net gain. It's just a matter of whether he can accept the reduced playing time with both Konerko and Thome on the team. My feeling is that his ankle probably won't allow much more playing time anyway, so why not stay with the Sox and play half your games in a HR-friendly park rather than Oakland or somewhere like that. But it's really his decision, and no one knows what that will be.

Hangar18
11-30-2005, 11:29 AM
Only if we re-sign Konerko.

Hangar18
11-30-2005, 11:31 AM
I believe that there is much to be gained by having the greatest hitter ever to play for the franchise on the team, even in a limited role.

Your very right about this. Look how the Media milks this for the other team
when they having aging players still around ....... time for the shoe to be on the other foot

tstrike2000
11-30-2005, 11:40 AM
I think that if Frank is healthy, there is room for him on the roster and at the plate on the White Sox, even if Konerko signs and Thome is the primary DH. Others disagree with my opinion.

I believe that there is much to be gained by having the greatest hitter ever to play for the franchise on the team, even in a limited role.

I'd like to agree with you. The ankle question and $$$ is unfortunately something the Sox won't want to risk, even in a limited role.

The Deacon
11-30-2005, 11:40 AM
If Konerko signs, he can pretty much pack his bags. They cannot keep Thome, Paulie and Frank on the roster. If Frank played a postion other than 1B or DH a serious argument could be made to keep him. Unfortunately, a team cannot afford to have a guy who can only DH and isnt starting, eating up a roster spot. It simply isnt practical. EVERY player on our team made contributions down the stretch last year. They did so because they could play the field. In a 162 game season, every player on the roster has to be ready to go.
I also have serious concerns about Frank's health anyway. 2 ankle/foot surgeries in 2 years? For a guy who weighs 275+?

Taliesinrk
11-30-2005, 11:42 AM
If Paul Konerko comes back, Frank is gone. If he is healthy, he is not going to want to warm pine for the Sox. His main goal is to reach 500 homers, and he isn't going to get that unless he starts.

I'm gonna disagree here.. IF Frank plays spot start (maybe 3X/Wk <--- Konerko off one day, Thome 2)/PH then he's looking at over 250 ABs. This, while keeping him healthy could give him, let's say 15/20 HRs. All he has to do is keep this up for 3 years, which would only put him at 40. IMO it's very doable. Especially if you think that PK/JT will get hurt somewhere along the line, at least for a bit.


Furthermore, perhaps someone in the better know than myself could clarify how to take Rick Hahn's statement at the JT press conference. On Chisox.com, it said that he made a comment, in response to where the signing of PK would leave Frank, along the lines of "If both Jim Thome and Paul come are here next year, then it seems pretty crowded". OF course when I went back to look for this quote, I couldn't find it. Anyway, I'm sure someone else read the article and could give me some clarification. I certainly hope there's some sort of role for him next year... I don't care what kind it is.. get it done Kenny.

Etownsox13
11-30-2005, 11:43 AM
I believe that there is much to be gained by having the greatest hitter ever to play for the franchise on the team, even in a limited role.


Xactly :worship:

Iwritecode
11-30-2005, 11:55 AM
Assuming Konerko comes back as the full-time firstbaseman and with Thome batting left-handed, does anyone think they would use Frank in a platoon role with Thome kinda like what they did this past season with Everett?

Check out their stats over the past 3 seasons.

-------------------AVG OBP SLG OPS
Thomas vs. lefties: .286 .432 .658 1.090
Thome vs lefties: .233 .321 .438 .759

Thomas vs. righties: .255 .380 .533 .913
Thome vs. righties: .275 .417 .597 1.014

kevingrt
11-30-2005, 11:59 AM
There is always a chance that is all I know with Frank coming back.

I hope he does though.

Taz
11-30-2005, 12:32 PM
Assuming Konerko comes back as the full-time firstbaseman and with Thome batting left-handed, does anyone think they would use Frank in a platoon role ...

This is my thinking...

Frater Perdurabo
11-30-2005, 12:44 PM
Assuming Konerko comes back as the full-time firstbaseman and with Thome batting left-handed, does anyone think they would use Frank in a platoon role with Thome kinda like what they did this past season with Everett?

Check out their stats over the past 3 seasons.

-------------------AVG OBP SLG OPS
Thomas vs. lefties: .286 .432 .658 1.090
Thome vs lefties: .233 .321 .438 .759

Thomas vs. righties: .255 .380 .533 .913
Thome vs. righties: .275 .417 .597 1.014

Frank facing lefties as DH and Thome facing righties as DH is almost exactly what I had in mind, with one more wrinkle:

When facing right-handed pitchers against whom Frank historically has performed significantly better than Konerko, PK should get a day off, with Thome getting the start at first and Frank DH-ing. Frank also would be the primary pinch-hitter off the bench in games he does not start. (This would happen no more than once or twice per week.)

A three-headed platoon among 1B and DH split this way would keep everyone fresh and healthy, extending their respective careers and making them more productive players by giving them a greater percentage of their plate appearances in situations where they are more likely to succeed.

Think about it: If Paulie or Thome or Frank doesn't have to face pitchers against whom each individually has struggled, each probably will hit as many homers and drive in as many runs as he would have anyway in fewer at-bats, raising each players' respective OBP, SLG, OPS and batting average!

Thome and Konerko each would get about 550 plate appearances over a season, and Thomas would get about 300 plate appearances.

akingamongstmen
11-30-2005, 12:58 PM
Frank facing lefties as DH and Thome facing righties as DH is almost exactly what I had in mind, with one more wrinkle:

When facing right-handed pitchers against whom Frank historically has performed significantly better than Konerko, PK should get a day off, with Thome getting the start at first and Frank DH-ing. Frank also would be the primary pinch-hitter off the bench in games he does not start. (This would happen no more than once or twice per week.)

A three-headed platoon among 1B and DH split this way would keep everyone fresh and healthy, extending their respective careers and making them more productive players by giving them a greater percentage of their plate appearances in situations where they are more likely to succeed.

Think about it: If Paulie or Thome or Frank doesn't have to face pitchers against whom each individually has struggled, each probably will hit as many homers and drive in as many runs as he would have anyway in fewer at-bats, raising each players' respective OBP, SLG, OPS and batting average!

Thome and Konerko each would get about 550 plate appearances over a season, and Thomas would get about 300 plate appearances.

Brilliant! :gulp:

The Deacon
11-30-2005, 01:12 PM
There are only 2 team in the AL that keep FULL-TIME EXCLUSIVE DH's, Boston (Ortiz) and Cleveland (Hafner). Why on earth would the White Sox, a team built around pitching and defense, carry a Part-Time DH?

The only reason I can think of is: sentiment. We know how well Houston did by putting Bagwell on the playoff roster out sentiment.....

Frater Perdurabo
11-30-2005, 01:18 PM
There are only 2 team in the AL that keep FULL-TIME EXCLUSIVE DH's, Boston (Ortiz) and Cleveland (Hafner). Why on earth would the White Sox, a team built around pitching and defense, carry a Part-Time DH?

The only reason I can think of is: sentiment. We know how well Houston did by putting Bagwell on the playoff roster out sentiment.....

Bagwell was still hurt.

If Frank is still hurt and can't play, he won't be on the 25-man roster (or the 40-man roster, either). He will be on the DL or out of baseball entirely.

Thome gives the Sox roster flexibility. Because of his ability to play first base, he would replace both Everett AND Gload on the Sox roster. The Sox don't have to keep a backup 1B since they have Thome (assuming they sign PK, of course).

The Deacon
11-30-2005, 01:18 PM
Also - Who says Frank would even come back? If he has the choice between an incentive based contract with the SOX where he is going to get MAYBE 250 at-bats or an incentive based contract with the A's where is a guranteed full-time DH status, which do you think he is gonig to choose? Which would you choose?

Frater Perdurabo
11-30-2005, 01:20 PM
Also - Who says Frank would even come back? If he has the choice between an incentive based contract with the SOX where he is going to get MAYBE 250 at-bats or an incentive based contract with the A's where is a guranteed full-time DH status, which do you think he is gonig to choose? Which would you choose?

I personally believe that Frank is loyal enough to the Sox and JR (and vice-versa), that if the Sox make him a fair offer and he is able to play, he'll sign with the Sox.

But if not, and if he is healthy and chooses another team's offer over the Sox, then I'll admit I was wrong and just cherish my memories of him as a Sox.

hold2dibber
11-30-2005, 01:39 PM
I personally believe that Frank is loyal enough to the Sox and JR (and vice-versa), that if the Sox make him a fair offer and he is able to play, he'll sign with the Sox.

But if not, and if he is healthy and chooses another team's offer over the Sox, then I'll admit I was wrong and just cherish my memories of him as a Sox.

I think your contemplated PK/Thome/Big Frank combo is perfect and would be very successful. However, I believe that Frank really wants to reach 500 HRs and to restore himself among the game's elite. Accordingly, if he can sign a deal to be a full-time player somewhere, despite his preference to stay here, he'll do it.

Lip Man 1
11-30-2005, 02:12 PM
If Frank's leg takes longer to heal he'll have a hard time getting offers from anyone trying to set their roster for April. The Sox may be the only team to give him an incentive type deal and who is willing to send him to an extended spring training and bring him up in say June to play once a week and pinch hit.

There is nothing to suggest right now definitively that he won't be returning. His whole status is murky until the news gets out about his leg.

Lip

downstairs
11-30-2005, 02:27 PM
With the PK news, something tells me the door is closed.

Who knows....

CluelessJoe1919
11-30-2005, 02:55 PM
I don't see why the Sox can't work a deal with Frank...He's obviously got pop remaining in his bat....They would sign him and wait for his ankle to heal. Then see what playing time is available for him when he returns mid-season.

DaBears
11-30-2005, 03:14 PM
I don't see why the Sox can't work a deal with Frank...He's obviously got pop remaining in his bat....They would sign him and wait for his ankle to heal. Then see what playing time is available for him when he returns mid-season.

where would he play? center field! I dont see any way to fit him on this team.:(:

StockdaleForVeep
11-30-2005, 03:14 PM
Even everett was a bench player and was influential after thomas went down. Thomas needs to stay to provide a threat off the bench. His clutch hitting is invaluable

Sufferin
11-30-2005, 03:18 PM
He's the best hitter I've seen don the pale hose uni, without a doubt. Also, being just about the same age and having, I believe, a very similar ankle/foot injury (broken bone in foot ignored which resulted in a calcium deposit that pinched the ankle tendon-end result surgery 3 years after the initial injury) I can feel his pain.

However, I don't think it's a realistic plan for any of the parties involved.

If you're the Sox you don't trade Rowand/2 stud prospects for Thome to only have him play 5 days a week.

If your Thome you don't want to sit at all when you're used to playing 150 games a year.

Likewise Konerko doesn't sign that huge contract and not play every day. That's not what he wants and it's not wise use of the payroll by the Sox.

Thomas either isn't healthy enough to play, in which case he's just taking a spot that a pinch runner/utility player could use (i.e. Harris) or he's healthy enough to play, in which case he's not going to be happy on the bench.

Also if he really believes he can play full time, he's not going to like playing for 3 mill. Furthermore, if he's healthy he DESERVES to keep playing full time, because the man can still hit.

To me the facts are the Sox are a better team with a utility guy/pitcher in that last roster spot and Thomas either is facing retirement (which I doubt) or will be better off playing elsewhere.

As much as it will kill me to see him in a different uniform, I don't see any way he'll be back.

It's been a great time watching him, but right now the Sox just don't have a place for him.

Taz
11-30-2005, 03:37 PM
OK.. Paulie is signed!

What now? I still say there is room for Frank... anyone else?

PaleHoseGeorge
11-30-2005, 03:44 PM
OK.. Paulie is signed!

What now? I still say there is room for Frank... anyone else?

Frank is nothing but a pinch hitter and part-time DH on the Sox. Basically he would be injury insurance for Konerko and Thome -- not worth much. He is worth a whole lot more to another team willing to take a flyer on his brittle foot in exchange for that HOF batting eye of his. He is still worth a lot of money to somebody.

I hope Frank gets to close out his career with the Sox, but I wouldn't bet against him landing nearly anyplace besides the Sox in 2006.

Ol' No. 2
11-30-2005, 03:50 PM
I think your contemplated PK/Thome/Big Frank combo is perfect and would be very successful. However, I believe that Frank really wants to reach 500 HRs and to restore himself among the game's elite. Accordingly, if he can sign a deal to be a full-time player somewhere, despite his preference to stay here, he'll do it.The assumption here is that his ankle will hold up to full-time duties. I think that's unlikely. He's a part-time player wherever he goes. If he's going to be a part-time player anyway, why not stay with the Sox?

RKMeibalane
11-30-2005, 04:07 PM
We'll have to see how this plays out. I think Frank will probably leave, as Oakland seems like a better fit for him than the Sox do with Konerko and Thome around.

I can already see the Cubune's headline the day Thomas leaves...

Thomas Betrays Reinsdorf, White Sox

hold2dibber
11-30-2005, 05:48 PM
The assumption here is that his ankle will hold up to full-time duties. I think that's unlikely. He's a part-time player wherever he goes. If he's going to be a part-time player anyway, why not stay with the Sox?

If he knows in advance that he's a part time player, you may be right. But I'm guessing if someone gives him a shot to play full time, he'll go for it. Although, like you, I suspect he'll get hurt again.

hose
11-30-2005, 05:50 PM
With Paulie at first and Thome as the DH Frank doesn't have a role with the Sox.

The Big Hurt's days with the Chicago White Sox are over.:whiner:

I just hope he doesn't sign with the Twins... gulp!! :o:

Flight #24
11-30-2005, 05:55 PM
FWIW, there's speculation that the Angels will make a run at Frank & trade for Manny using Erstad, Kotchman/Morales, & prospects (and eating a ton of cash). They then can roll out something like Figgins(CF)-Cabrera(SS)-Manny(LF)-Vlady(RF)-Thomas(DH)-Anderson(CF)-Molina(C)-MacPherson(3B)-Kennedy(2B).

That's one horrendous defensive, but offensively imposing lineup.

Ol' No. 2
11-30-2005, 06:01 PM
FWIW, there's speculation that the Angels will make a run at Frank & trade for Manny using Erstad, Kotchman/Morales, & prospects (and eating a ton of cash). They then can roll out something like Figgins(CF)-Cabrera(SS)-Manny(LF)-Vlady(RF)-Thomas(DH)-Anderson(CF)-Molina(C)-MacPherson(3B)-Kennedy(2B).

That's one horrendous defensive, but offensively imposing lineup.Maybe that's why they have four outfielders.:redneck

filmnews
11-30-2005, 06:21 PM
I think that could be a good guy on the White Sox bench. He could always pitch hit in the late innings. Also, he can be a DH when Thome needs a day off. Also, when Konerko takes a day off, Thome to first and Frank DH. I think it would be awesome to have that much power on the bench. Also, Frank is very good at reading pitchers. He can pass this info on to other player on the team. Bottom line, sign FRANK for 2 million.:)

WCCMIKE
11-30-2005, 07:02 PM
I'm happy we got thome and konerko but what's gonna happen with big hurt:(:

hold2dibber
11-30-2005, 07:06 PM
I think that could be a good guy on the White Sox bench. He could always pitch hit in the late innings. Also, he can be a DH when Thome needs a day off. Also, when Konerko takes a day off, Thome to first and Frank DH. I think it would be awesome to have that much power on the bench. Also, Frank is very good at reading pitchers. He can pass this info on to other player on the team. Bottom line, sign FRANK for 2 million.:)

Again, the Sox might be willing to do it (but probably not) but I don't think Frank will go where he can get a full-time gig.

The Deacon
11-30-2005, 07:18 PM
I think that could be a good guy on the White Sox bench. He could always pitch hit in the late innings. Also, he can be a DH when Thome needs a day off. Also, when Konerko takes a day off, Thome to first and Frank DH. I think it would be awesome to have that much power on the bench. Also, Frank is very good at reading pitchers. He can pass this info on to other player on the team. Bottom line, sign FRANK for 2 million.:)

You dont eat up a roster spot with a guy who cant play the field and can only pinch hit. Only 2 team in the AL carried FULLtime DHs, Ortiz and Hafner. Why would we carry a p/t DH? We are built on pitching and defense. It makes no sense. I wont even comment on the 2 million part.....

WestSox
11-30-2005, 07:24 PM
The assumption here is that his ankle will hold up to full-time duties. I think that's unlikely. He's a part-time player wherever he goes. If he's going to be a part-time player anyway, why not stay with the Sox?

I agree. He's not going to command much on the free agent market, as he probably couldn't even pass a physical at this point. But I'd be deeply disappointed if KW didn't try to re-sign Frank to maybe a one-year, $1 milllion deal (he's already received a couple million from his buyout) with incentives as a bench player. I don't see why Frank wouldn't want to remain a part of the Sox family. But if he got an offer to DH full-time somewhere else and wanted to go, I'd wish him luck and thank him for the memories.

Blancos Medias
11-30-2005, 07:29 PM
I hope they can sign him just to intimidate the opposing teams. Knowing his bat is on the bench would scare the heck out of the opposing pitchers.

I'd rather they signed him to an incentives filled contract, and keep him around instead of some of the lesser bats there now. (Borchard, and whoever else.)

Fenway
11-30-2005, 07:36 PM
On one of the many boards I scan I saw this post by a Cubs fan. There maybe hope for the North Side yet

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=429298&postcount=1

RKMeibalane
11-30-2005, 08:00 PM
On one of the many boards I scan I saw this post by a Cubs fan. There maybe hope for the North Side yet

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=429298&postcount=1

That poster is actually a WSI Intelligence operative in disguise. I could tell you his true identity, but then I'd have to kill you. :cool:

Taliesinrk
11-30-2005, 11:41 PM
That poster is actually a WSI Intelligence operative in disguise. I could tell you his true identity, but then I'd have to kill you. :cool:

Wow.. amazing.. Just when ya think there's no hope left.. That was pretty cool. Kinda got me feelin a bit better about the whole Frank situation.

Nellie_Fox
12-01-2005, 12:48 AM
I can already see the Cubune's headline the day Thomas leaves...

Thomas Betrays Reinsdorf, White SoxNo way. The day it is final that Frank is going elsewhere, the Chicago sports media will immediately give him the respect he's deserved all these years and rip Sox management for disloyalty. They will no longer have anything to gain by ripping Frank.

ode to veeck
12-01-2005, 09:36 AM
The assumption here is that his ankle will hold up to full-time duties. I think that's unlikely. He's a part-time player wherever he goes. If he's going to be a part-time player anyway, why not stay with the Sox?

... exactly, which lessens only somewhat the attraction of a full time role somewhere else, except that Frank still has the desire to play full time, which could make him jump for the opportunity, even if it's questionable that he'll stand up

... on the other hand, where better place would Frank have to play and have a shot at actually playing in a World Series with a fan base in love with him.

It's a tough call, and probably one of the next issues Kenny needs to close on ... besides backups for CF and 3B that is

ode to veeck
12-01-2005, 09:45 AM
You dont eat up a roster spot with a guy who cant play the field and can only pinch hit. Only 2 team in the AL carried FULLtime DHs, ....

Who cares what other teams do, we're the frigging White Sox for chrissakes. Did we copy other teams strategies on the way to the WS last year?

No one else has the greatest right handed hitter sitting on the bench either. No, Frank can't fill in an OF slot like Crazy Carl could, but he's a helluva upgrade for the backup DH/1B/cleanup stud on the bench vs Carl/Gload/whoever you can friggin' even think of.

I'd love to see it, but not overly optimistic at this point like PHG. Sure, I'd spend 2M for that key role (if I were KW/JR/OG).

wdelaney72
12-01-2005, 09:58 AM
For many of the reasons posted already, I feel VERY confident that Frank will return to the White Sox as part-time DH and pinch hitter. NO team will give Frank starting money... especially Oakland. I have doubts whether or not Frank will even be ready to play come opening day. He'll be back.

Ozzie has his faults but I think we saw that Ozzie does a pretty good job of using the bench players. If Frank comes back as described above, he'll get plenty of at-bats.

tebman
12-01-2005, 11:20 AM
For many of the reasons posted already, I feel VERY confident that Frank will return to the White Sox as part-time DH and pinch hitter. NO team will give Frank starting money... especially Oakland. I have doubts whether or not Frank will even be ready to play come opening day. He'll be back.

Ozzie has his faults but I think we saw that Ozzie does a pretty good job of using the bench players. If Frank comes back as described above, he'll get plenty of at-bats.
I agree -- and all of this is hypothetical because we don't know (hell, Frank doesn't know either) whether his ankle will be strong enough to do anything next season. If it is, I can't think of a better role for Frank than right-handed DH alongside Thome, the left-handed DH. The pitching staff is intact, and even if no other moves are made (which seems unlikely, given KW's willingness to deal), Anderson or Owens is standing by to play CF.

After what we all saw them do this year, I have to believe KW and Ozzie know what they're doing.

Soxfan35
12-01-2005, 03:01 PM
ESPN news showed as one of their top stories that big frank has been released, I'll await the official news from whitesox.com though.

Taliesinrk
12-01-2005, 03:10 PM
ESPN news showed as one of their top stories that big frank has been released, I'll await the official news from whitesox.com though.

What exactly is the difference between being released and being a FA? I mean the Sox still have till dec. 7 or 9 or something right??? Does this mean he can't come back till like May 1 at the earliest???

RKMeibalane
12-01-2005, 03:14 PM
ESPN news showed as one of their top stories that big frank has been released, I'll await the official news from whitesox.com though.

How can he be released if he's already a free-agent? Nice to see ESPN on top of things again. This annoucement is probably what most of us are expecting- that Frank will not be brought back, and is free to look elsewhere.

Soxfan35
12-01-2005, 03:22 PM
I think what they meant is, that they have until Dec 7 I beleive to offer him a deal, and if not they cannot resign him to the big league club until May. They haven't mentioned it again but Im assumming that KW probably told frank not to expect an offer.

Taliesinrk
12-01-2005, 03:25 PM
I think what they meant is, that they have until Dec 7 I beleive to offer him a deal, and if not they cannot resign him to the big league club until May. They haven't mentioned it again but Im assumming that KW probably told frank not to expect an offer.

When you say they haven't mentioned it again... does that mean they're not going to? or they are and haven't come to it in their program?

Soxfan35
12-01-2005, 07:30 PM
I was on my lunch and saw it at 2pm when they outlined their top stories, then I didnt hear it again, but i had to go back to work at 230