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bjmarte
12-19-2001, 09:18 AM
I've only seen a smattering of posts on this topic. Does anyone think we Herbert Perry deal was a good one? I've always thougt of Perry as a pretty decent player over the last couple of years, why would we trade him for a permanent minor leaguer?

Paulwny
12-19-2001, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by bjmarte
I've only seen a smattering of posts on this topic. Does anyone think we Herbert Perry deal was a good one? I've always thougt of Perry as a pretty decent player over the last couple of years, why would we trade him for a permanent minor leaguer?

The sox weren't going to keep him. Since it appears that Royce will be at ss that puts Jose at 3rd. Perry would be sitting the bench.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-19-2001, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by bjmarte
I've only seen a smattering of posts on this topic. Does anyone think we Herbert Perry deal was a good one? I've always thougt of Perry as a pretty decent player over the last couple of years, why would we trade him for a permanent minor leaguer?

IMO, Herbert Perry's is the lone "career year" the 2000 Sox received, though (ill-informed) critics would claim several others, too. Perry had never played at that level before, and perhaps he never would have again.

For a serviceable everyday thirdbasemen in 2000, the Sox got virtually nothing in trade hardly a year later. You can thank the obstinate Jerry Manuel for benching him most of the 2001 season--even after Perry was again healthy after suffering arm trouble early in the year.

There is more, too. Manuel all but accused Perry of malingering in September, 2000 when a nagging hamstring pull wasn't healing the way Doctor Jerry thought it ought to be.

We got **** for Herbert Perry thanks to Jerry Manuel, and a general manager who couldn't horse trade if he owned Churchill Downs.

Just my two cents. :smile:

bjmarte
12-19-2001, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny


The sox weren't going to keep him. Since it appears that Royce will be at ss that puts Jose at 3rd. Perry would be sitting the bench.

But just becuase we weren't goint to keep him doesn't mean that he wasn't a decent player. Couldn't we have gotten something more for him?

Paulwny
12-19-2001, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by bjmarte


But just becuase we weren't goint to keep him doesn't mean that he wasn't a decent player. Couldn't we have gotten something more for him?


As PHG said:

We got **** for Herbert Perry thanks to Jerry Manuel, and a general manager who couldn't horse trade if he owned Churchill Downs.

RichH55
12-19-2001, 10:00 AM
Herbert Perry had one year, not even one really...And at this point Manos, Crede, and even Liefer are all ahead of him for playing time and Herbert is rather limited in what he can do. He's going to be a platoon guy in Texas, if he makes the team...He used to be one of Hart's guys so that is probably where the deal stems from....What were you hoping to get for Perry? He simply isn't worth that much, so we didn't get that much. Plus other teams know that he isn't in our plans so you have no leverage, nor a very valuable commodity either way...KW almost seemed to be doing Herbert a favor here in giving him to a team that at least showed so interest in him and giving him a shot at playing time....KW hasn't made alot of great moves, but its really rather unfair to critize him here, and I don't blame Jerry for not playing Perry either...sorry...you didnt hear anything about the lack of return on Perry becuase he didnt warrant much of a return

Kilroy
12-19-2001, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
There is more, too. Manuel all but accused Perry of malingering in September, 2000 when a nagging hamstring pull wasn't healing the way Doctor Jerry thought it ought to be.

Refresh my memory on this one please. I don't remember that at all for some reason. I do remember Perry having the hammy tho.
He couldn't score the go-ahead run from 2nd base on a base hit in game 1 of the div series because he couldn't run. That game shoulda never gone to extra innings because Manuel should have pinch-run for Perry.

bjmarte
12-19-2001, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Herbert Perry had one year, not even one really...And at this point Manos, Crede, and even Liefer are all ahead of him for playing time and Herbert is rather limited in what he can do. He's going to be a platoon guy in Texas, if he makes the team...He used to be one of Hart's guys so that is probably where the deal stems from....What were you hoping to get for Perry? He simply isn't worth that much, so we didn't get that much. Plus other teams know that he isn't in our plans so you have no leverage, nor a very valuable commodity either way...KW almost seemed to be doing Herbert a favor here in giving him to a team that at least showed so interest in him and giving him a shot at playing time....KW hasn't made alot of great moves, but its really rather unfair to critize him here, and I don't blame Jerry for not playing Perry either...sorry...you didnt hear anything about the lack of return on Perry becuase he didnt warrant much of a return

I didn't criticize anyone, I asked a question. Thank you for attempting to answer it, even if you did come off like a prick once again.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-19-2001, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Refresh my memory on this one please. I don't remember that at all for some reason. I do remember Perry having the hammy tho. He couldn't score the go-ahead run from 2nd base on a base hit in game 1 of the div series because he couldn't run. That game shoulda never gone to extra innings because Manuel should have pinch-run for Perry.

Good memory. Perry gimped his way all around the bases during the ALDS, but Manuel still thought Perry was jaking it even a week earlier.

Specifically, the Sox were suffering all sorts of injuries down the stretch. I'm sure you recall several pitchers getting cortisone shots. Manuel was trying to rest players and get them healthy, including Perry who was in a lot of pain from his hammy.

Manuel began playing his front line players for the last series with Kansas City. However, Perry was still complaining about his hammy. When the media asked questions about the situation, Manuel retorted something like, "I'll tell you why he'll play. Joe Crede." Perry was out there, playing hurt, the very next day. It did wonders for his recovery--not!

Anybody who saw Perry run knew he wasn't jaking it. In retrospect, that was the beginning of the end for Herbert Perry in Chicago.

Interestingly, that same moment marked the fall from favor of Mark Johnson, too. He was left off the playoff roster in favor of Josh Paul's "versatility". You don't suppose this has anything to do with the impending change of general managers, do you?

:KW
"They made it official less than a month later."

:reinsy
"Butter wouldn't melt in my mouth."

:ohno
"Amazing how quickly these guys can screw things up."

duke of dorwood
12-19-2001, 10:55 AM
All I know was he hit in the clutch-most reliable we had. Its obvious why our "2 out runs" were down this year-his at bats went elsewhere. I think we could have got a bit more.

RedPinStripes
12-19-2001, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by bjmarte


I didn't criticize anyone, I asked a question. Thank you for attempting to answer it, even if you did come off like a prick once again.

LOL!!!!!!!!

Kilroy
12-19-2001, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Manuel began playing his front line players for the last series with Kansas City. However, Perry was still complaining about his hammy. When the media asked questions about the situation, Manuel retorted something like, "I'll tell you why he'll play. Joe Crede." Perry was out there, playing hurt, the very next day. It did wonders for his recovery--not!

Anybody who saw Perry run knew he wasn't jaking it. In retrospect, that was the beginning of the end for Herbert Perry in Chicago.


Ugggh. That's just lovely...

PaleHoseGeorge
12-19-2001, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
All I know was he hit in the clutch-most reliable we had. Its obvious why our "2 out runs" were down this year-his at bats went elsewhere. I think we could have got a bit more.

Yep. Perry batted #7 and #8 most of the year. Before Charles Johnson showed up in August, he was the primary reason the Sox were turning over the line up in games nearly every week. 95 wins come easy when you're doing that.

I'm not sure what any of the other third base candidates offer that is so much greater than what Herbert Perry offered. Hell, Manuel wouldn't commit to playing Crede even after the Sox were elminated last September. Third base is like a bad joke for the Sox.

:hitless
"I'm the everyday shortstop because..."

Daver
12-19-2001, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


. Third base is like a bad joke for the Sox.



It has been since Ventura left.

Norton?

Please.

czalgosz
12-19-2001, 11:25 AM
Well, Perry was too hurt to play 3B for a few weeks in late April / early May, there, and for a while he couldn't run at all - his best value lay in being a pinch hitter. By the time he was healthy enough to play, Clayton was shaking off his early-season slump and showing that he deserved to be somewhat near the ballpark.

Frankly, I'm surprised we were able to trade Perry at all. I thought sure he was going to be released.

But I agree with George when he says that Crede should have been playing a hell of a lot more. 50 ABs wasn't enough to do anything. And last season was the time to do it, with the Sox pretty much out of it by the end of July. Now we're going into a season where we're supposed to contend, so Crede won't get a shot again this year, either...

Tragg
12-19-2001, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny



As PHG said:

We got **** for Herbert Perry thanks to Jerry Manuel, and a general manager who couldn't horse trade if he owned Churchill Downs.

Exactly. That's my real complaint about Kenny Williams. He overpays for the players he wants; he virtually gives away the players he doesn't want.

AsInWreck
12-19-2001, 07:41 PM
Anyone recall the Sox book, "who's on third?"
Looks like we're returning to tradition

czalgosz
12-19-2001, 09:44 PM
The other great Lindbergh book was "Stuck on the Sox". My dad used to have a copy of that book - it was kind of dated (from the seventies) but it made me laugh in kind of a painful way. Whatever our disagreements or differences here on this board, we'll always be united by our suffering.

We're Sox fans, and as such there's always going to be a masochistic streak in each and every one of us. If we couldn't handle pain, heartbreak and misery, we'd have long since become Yankee fans, or else just went ahead and gotten lobotomies and used Cub hats to hide the scars.

There's a certain way that a Sox fan holds himself - he doesn't celebrate the futility, the way a Cub fan does, nor does he spew venom and hatred the way a BoSox fan does. No, the true Sox fan spends each winter grimly going over the broken pieces of the past season, trying to figure out what went wrong. Then, while the February snows are still melting, the Sox fan picks himself up, and once again embraces the hope and promise of a new season.

Being a Sox fan is like being in an abusive relationship - no matter how horrible it is, no matter how many times our hearts are broken, no matter how many times we promise to ourselves that we're leaving and never coming back, we always do. We tell ourselves, "this time, it's gonna be different".

And, of course, it never is, but what are you going to do?

FarWestChicago
12-19-2001, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
The other great Lindbergh book was "Stuck on the Sox". My dad used to have a copy of that book - it was kind of dated (from the seventies) but it made me laugh in kind of a painful way. Whatever our disagreements or differences here on this board, we'll always be united by our suffering.

We're Sox fans, and as such there's always going to be a masochistic streak in each and every one of us. If we couldn't handle pain, heartbreak and misery, we'd have long since become Yankee fans, or else just went ahead and gotten lobotomies and used Cub hats to hide the scars.

There's a certain way that a Sox fan holds himself - he doesn't celebrate the futility, the way a Cub fan does, nor does he spew venom and hatred the way a BoSox fan does. No, the true Sox fan spends each winter grimly going over the broken pieces of the past season, trying to figure out what went wrong. Then, while the February snows are still melting, the Sox fan picks himself up, and once again embraces the hope and promise of a new season.

Being a Sox fan is like being in an abusive relationship - no matter how horrible it is, no matter how many times our hearts are broken, no matter how many times we promise to ourselves that we're leaving and never coming back, we always do. We tell ourselves, "this time, it's gonna be different".

And, of course, it never is, but what are you going to do? Czal, that was very eloquent. Every penny your parents spent on college was worth it. Good show! :smile:

kermittheefrog
12-19-2001, 10:48 PM
Perry is the exact type of replacable player no one is willing to pay for. I think we could have gotten more for him only if we had a good, shrewd trading GM that actually got the best of deals once in a while.

sox_fan_forever
12-19-2001, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
The other great Lindbergh book was "Stuck on the Sox". My dad used to have a copy of that book - it was kind of dated (from the seventies) but it made me laugh in kind of a painful way. Whatever our disagreements or differences here on this board, we'll always be united by our suffering.

We're Sox fans, and as such there's always going to be a masochistic streak in each and every one of us. If we couldn't handle pain, heartbreak and misery, we'd have long since become Yankee fans, or else just went ahead and gotten lobotomies and used Cub hats to hide the scars.

There's a certain way that a Sox fan holds himself - he doesn't celebrate the futility, the way a Cub fan does, nor does he spew venom and hatred the way a BoSox fan does. No, the true Sox fan spends each winter grimly going over the broken pieces of the past season, trying to figure out what went wrong. Then, while the February snows are still melting, the Sox fan picks himself up, and once again embraces the hope and promise of a new season.

Being a Sox fan is like being in an abusive relationship - no matter how horrible it is, no matter how many times our hearts are broken, no matter how many times we promise to ourselves that we're leaving and never coming back, we always do. We tell ourselves, "this time, it's gonna be different".

And, of course, it never is, but what are you going to do?


That sums it all up perfectly...

WinningUgly!
12-20-2001, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz
The other great Lindbergh book was "Stuck on the Sox". My dad used to have a copy of that book - it was kind of dated (from the seventies) but it made me laugh in kind of a painful way. Whatever our disagreements or differences here on this board, we'll always be united by our suffering.

We're Sox fans, and as such there's always going to be a masochistic streak in each and every one of us. If we couldn't handle pain, heartbreak and misery, we'd have long since become Yankee fans, or else just went ahead and gotten lobotomies and used Cub hats to hide the scars.

There's a certain way that a Sox fan holds himself - he doesn't celebrate the futility, the way a Cub fan does, nor does he spew venom and hatred the way a BoSox fan does. No, the true Sox fan spends each winter grimly going over the broken pieces of the past season, trying to figure out what went wrong. Then, while the February snows are still melting, the Sox fan picks himself up, and once again embraces the hope and promise of a new season.

Being a Sox fan is like being in an abusive relationship - no matter how horrible it is, no matter how many times our hearts are broken, no matter how many times we promise to ourselves that we're leaving and never coming back, we always do. We tell ourselves, "this time, it's gonna be different".

And, of course, it never is, but what are you going to do?

That brought tears to my eyes. :whiner:

bjmarte
12-20-2001, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Perry is the exact type of replacable player no one is willing to pay for. I think we could have gotten more for him only if we had a good, shrewd trading GM that actually got the best of deals once in a while.

And is once in a while really too much to ask?

RichH55
12-22-2001, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Perry is the exact type of replacable player no one is willing to pay for. I think we could have gotten more for him only if we had a good, shrewd trading GM that actually got the best of deals once in a while.


Fair enough on both accounts...and I always respect your opinion Kermit, but aren't these statements a bit contradictory? I mean if Perry has limited value to begin with, plus he's not in the Sox plans how much can we really expect to get for him? I'm not the biggest KW fan in the world, but not a ton he can do here frankly, sure he shouldn't have dealt an extra arm in the Pitt deal, but how many people were expecting to get anything for Herbert? I, myself, thought he was going to be released. That isn't exactly Giambi we were marketing here

RichH55
12-22-2001, 07:56 AM
Also, what did we aquire Perry for to begin with? Was that the Tanyon Sturtze deal? Or was he a waiver pick-up....either way he hasn't exactly enjoyed huge trade value over the years....And this next question is just a general question, because i honestly have no idea...did the Scott Eyre for Gary Glover deal come on KW's watch or was that another Schueler move? Just curious

RichH55
12-22-2001, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by bjmarte


I didn't criticize anyone, I asked a question. Thank you for attempting to answer it, even if you did come off like a prick once again.
:whiner:

Classy all the way as always. Good to have such an insightful poster like you here.(In my best Homer Simpson voice) In case you couldn't tell I was being sarcastic

Truthfully, in my previous posts in no way was I calling you out. I said in a previous thread that I didn't expect much for Herbert and when I didn't get it I wasn't surprised or angry. Simply put I don't think the Perry deal meritted much discontentment and I simply spelled out this view....In NO way did I single you out or try to put you down...we didn't agree here..Deal with it.....if me not agreeing with you makes me a prick, let me know now so I can be prepared for that reaction if I happen to hold a dissimilar view from yours. Then when we don't agree and you call me something I won't have to respond to it...thanks in advance for that little time saving help

Daver
12-22-2001, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Also, what did we aquire Perry for to begin with? Was that the Tanyon Sturtze deal? Or was he a waiver pick-up....either way he hasn't exactly enjoyed huge trade value over the years....And this next question is just a general question, because i honestly have no idea...did the Scott Eyre for Gary Glover deal come on KW's watch or was that another Schueler move? Just curious

That was a Kenny Williams trade.

RichH55
12-22-2001, 10:19 AM
Thank you Daver...it seemed like a Schueler move for some reason...c'est la vie, maybe that deal counts as the once in a while? Still he can do better...at least the GMs are meeting with him and not asking for other members of senior management to be present...Danny boy cant get the respect and KW needs to spend reinsy's money on extra faxes to prove no one is hurt

:reinsy
Alright you caught me...No FAs because of too many faxes...do you know how expensive those faxes are...<trailing off> not to mention how expensive those FAS are?@!?!?

mwa36
12-22-2001, 03:03 PM
Things just haven't been the same in Chicago since Robin Ventura left, and look where he is now, The Yankees.(UGH) :whiner:

FarWestChicago
12-22-2001, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by mwa36
Things just haven't been the same in Chicago since Robin Ventura left, and look where he is now, The Yankees.(UGH) :whiner: Welcome to WSI, mwa. :gulp: The 2000 season was a lot of fun until October. :(:

RichH55
12-22-2001, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Welcome to WSI, mwa. :gulp: The 2000 season was a lot of fun until October. :(:


Welcome man! :gulp: