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SOXBOY
11-28-2005, 10:27 PM
I read this today on the Angel's chat room on their mlb web site.On 1bignasty.com(Joe McDonnell a radio personality) states that Konerko is close to 5 YEAR 65 MILLION deal.Sorry i don't know how to add link.

gf2020
11-28-2005, 10:29 PM
I read this today on the Angel's chat room on their mlb web site.On 1bignasty.com(Joe McDonnell a radio personality) states that Konerko is close to 5 YEAR 65 MILLION deal.Sorry i don't know how to add link.

http://1bignasty.com/jblog/2005/11/angels-konerko-update11-28-05.html

It doesn't say anything about him being close to accepting it, only that the deal is CLOSE to being worth 65 million.

kevin57
11-28-2005, 10:31 PM
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that this report is accurate.

How many think the Sox will match it?

How many think that the Sox should match it?

JUribe1989
11-28-2005, 10:32 PM
It doesn't make much sense at all for The Angels to get Konerko AND give him all that money. I don't buy that the contract is worth that much, and why are the Angels wanting Konerko so badly when they already have Kotchman and Erstad to play first?

The Deacon
11-28-2005, 10:32 PM
Here is the link.

http://1bignasty.com/jblog/2005/11/angels-konerko-update11-28-05.html

5 for 65. 13mil/year, thats about what I felt the SOX would have to shell out. Although I love ihm, I cant see Paulie getting much more than that. The offers will be similar and it will come down to where he wants to play.

D-Day is coming soon. :o:

The Deacon
11-28-2005, 10:35 PM
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that this report is accurate.

How many think the Sox will match it?

How many think that the Sox should match it?

Dont know if the Sox will match, 5 year deals are big time. Without much payroll flexibilty a deal like that has the potential to destroy our team in the future.
I think the Sox should give him no more than 13 million.

Chisox003
11-28-2005, 10:40 PM
I think the Sox will match, and go no higher.

At that point, it's all up to PK ... I've said it all along, if Walnuts wants to be back on the Southside next season, he will be.

Get 'er done.....

The Deacon
11-28-2005, 10:42 PM
It doesn't make much sense at all for The Angels to get Konerko AND give him all that money. I don't buy that the contract is worth that much, and why are the Angels wanting Konerko so badly when they already have Kotchman and Erstad to play first?

They'll probably dump Finely and move Erstad back to CF. Or DH Anderson F/T and put Erstad in LF. Kotchman hasnt proven he can play yet either.
More importantly, the Angels have a bigger battle to fight, The LA Dodgers. It is a battle they are currently winning and probably want to keep the pressure on. Remember the Angels were not that popular before they won the series, they were playing 2nd fiddle to the Dodgers. Big signings like this keep the focus on them. With their renewed fan interest and an owner willing to spend $$, what do they have to lose?

Taliesinrk
11-28-2005, 10:43 PM
I think the Sox will match, and go no higher.

At that point, it's all up to PK ... I've said it all along, if Walnuts wants to be back on the Southside next season, he will be.

Get 'er done.....

Think they'll match the 5 years??? It'll be interesting..

antitwins13
11-28-2005, 10:44 PM
I say keep the money, sign Frank, then take the left over cash and sign Brian Giles.

SOX ADDICT '73
11-28-2005, 10:48 PM
5 for 65. 13mil/year, thats about what I felt the SOX would have to shell out.
Me too. While I don't think Paul is worth $13 million per, if that's where the market is set, how are you going to replace his production for any less than that(through free agency, and without pulling off another huge, controversial trade)?

Regarding the reported "policy" that the Sox will not offer any contract longer than four years (and since a fifth year could be the deciding factor): Konerko will only be 34 years old five years from now. If they are willing to commit to two, possibly three more years of Jim Thome, who is 35 right now, they shouldn't have a problem accomodating Paulie. Yes Thome is more proven, but IMO, Konerko has show evidence that 2003 was the fluke, and '04-'05 the norm.

nccwsfan
11-28-2005, 10:48 PM
I think the Sox will match, and go no higher.

At that point, it's all up to PK ... I've said it all along, if Walnuts wants to be back on the Southside next season, he will be.

Get 'er done.....

Exactly- 5 years/$65 million is what I think the CWS will set as their limit. Any higher would be a bad idea....hopefully they can do this and seal the deal.

If we're going to keep PK it will have to be with a 5 year contract. A 4 year deal just isn't going to cut it.

Chisox003
11-28-2005, 10:50 PM
Think they'll match the 5 years??? It'll be interesting..
I know...

I think what it might be coming down to at this point is choosing: Either PK, or both Giles and Hurt. But theres no guarantee Giles will even sign here, and of course we sure as hell don't know Frank's condition, so obviously Konerko has got to be the first choice, if not for the obvious reasons of winning a championship with him at the heart of it.

Shall be interesting indeed.....

Banix12
11-28-2005, 10:55 PM
5yr/65 million is a reasonable enough Market price that I would match it. I might even be willing to knock it up to $13.5 mil a year but that would probably be as high as I would consider going.

MadetoOrta
11-29-2005, 12:09 AM
I'd match that. If that's the beginning of a back-and-forth with the Angels, then let him go.

Tragg
11-29-2005, 12:42 AM
5/$65 is about what I thought the Sox would be willing to pay. I'm surpised and disappointed if the Angels get him for that.
Well, I won't be disappointed if I see us spend that $13 million on a couple more hitters, extensions for our pitchers that are on top of arbitration, etc. If we don't spend the money or hold it for "midseason" (the worst time to trade, imo), that will suck.

Corlose 15
11-29-2005, 12:56 AM
If the Sox lose out on Konerko because they won't offer 5 years I'll be really dissapointed. He's 29 paying him until he's 34 is hardly a gamble.

That said I agree that it'd be about 5 yrs at $13 per year that I'd top out at. If Paulie doesn't want to win another World Series making a cool 13 mil then I'd be dissapointed in him. :D:

Steelrod
11-29-2005, 01:04 AM
15 million times 5?

Rediculous. Having watched Paulie, the lack of free agent talent is making him the prime FA. I love Paulie but think he will have his usual year at best. Certainly not worth anything close to that. ON the other hand, wouldn,t blame him for taking it. We will have a chance of getting him back in a few years, with the Angels picking up part of his salary, ala Philly. 1st base isn't exactly a prime skill position. I think that kind of money can be used in better ways. 12 months ago, we could have signed him for 9-10, but apparently weren't sure if he was worth it. As valuable as he was to us, not much has changed. Rather give Crede a multi-year at a fair price, and take a chance on his back holding up.

MUsoxfan
11-29-2005, 01:53 AM
I read on the Mariners message board that the Yankees are so desperate for hitting that they've called up Danny Taratabull to see if he can be their DH. I think the Sox should match any offer that the Mariners or any other message board comes across.

Relax

IowaSox1971
11-29-2005, 01:57 AM
I would not sign Konerko to a five-year, $65 million deal. He is not a superstar player. His lack of speed on the bases, his being prone to slumps and his tendency to hit into double plays are definite negatives. It would not make sense to pay Paulie so much more than the next highest paid guy on the team (nearly half of Thome's salary will be paid by Philadelphia), because everybody knows that the pitching staff is the main reason we won the World Series. So, at that price, it's best that we let Paulie go to the Angels.

wsoxfan
11-29-2005, 02:07 AM
I would NOT do that deal! That's way to much money for such a streaky hitter. Konerko's a good guy and a good player but he should not be getting Vlad money. Magglio wanted that type of money too and Kenny showed that players can be replaced, even really productive ones...

nodiggity59
11-29-2005, 03:01 AM
I'll give PK 4/$52 million or 5/$60. That's more than fair.

Domeshot17
11-29-2005, 05:13 AM
Hate to say it, but I highly doubt Frank can come back for a full season at DH. I always felt he could play 3 or 4 days a week, 90 games a season, but I just don't rely on him right now. It hurts, I love Frank, but if PK leaves, Frank might only be plan B and a 1/2.

IF KW does not go any higher than the 5 year deal, and if Paulie signs elsewhere, it will haunt us. Hes coming off back to back 40-100 seasons, there is only like 6 other players in baseball having currently done that especially in the post steroid era. Don't feel like doing the math again, but Paulie, if he plays until he is 39 ( not out of the realm for a dh/1b who stays healthy) could hit 500 home runs.

We just won a championship, and we are looking to possibly lose 2 of the biggest locker room guys on the team with Rowand gone. Not sure whatever happened to DONT MESS WITH THE TEAM CHEMISTRY, but replacing 3 starters in the lineup does just that.

The one thing I like about KW is he knows a player's true value. Maggs had the winning doesnt matter attitude, Paulie has that drive to win. So many people think El Duque is worth his 4.5 a year because of 2 big playoff outtings, then under that theory Paulie is worth 13 mil for his playoff homers.

I know player's are replacable, but some aren't. The Yankees won more world series with Wade Boggs on decline, Paul O'niel on the same slope and Tino coming down than they have with Giambi, Sheff and Arod. We all knew this last year, the best collection of player's does not win a world series, the best collection of player's gelled as a team does. We knew it was about having the RIGHT guys and not always THE BEST. Paulie made just under 9 last year, so a 4 or even 5 mil a year raise really doesnt kill payroll. Especially when in 2 years our entire OF will be automatic resigns with 3 of Anderson Young Sweeney and Owens.

Lillian
11-29-2005, 05:48 AM
I think this may come down to a few other contract details. If I remember correctly, Konerko had been asking for a no trade clause. At the age of 29, the five years may not be that big of a risk, although not being able to trade him would limit the team's ability to mitigate that risk, if he should not become a good fit in the future. He is not the kind of guy that you would likely ever want to remove from your club house, but the need for different kinds of player personnel is hard to predict 5 years into the future.
Then there is always the question of deferred money. Sox management loves to structure contracts that way, and some players and their managers apparently consider that method undesirable.
If it just comes down to the Dollar amount between what the Angels are reportedly offering, and what the Sox are likely willing to pay, there shouldn't be enough difference to entice Paulie away from the team, which he insists is his first choice. After all, he has to like their chances even better now, with the addition of Thome.

Fredsox
11-29-2005, 06:58 AM
If it matters at all the LA Times is reporting about 5/$60 million, not $65 million.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/baseball/mlb/angels/la-sp-angels29nov29,1,5936495.story?coll=la-headlines-sports-mlb-angels&ctrack=1&cset=true

Tragg
11-29-2005, 08:47 AM
Konerko had a OBP of .378 on a team of "swing at everything" type of hitters (only Pods and Iguchi had OBPs that could even be considered respectable) and cracked 40 homers - and he did that in the first non-steriod season of MLB, so there is no doubt that he's 100% clean. That type of production is important to us, because we have no one to come close to it in any phase (except Thome and Frank and they have questions). He's had one below par season in his career- not too bad.
There's no doubt we can AFFORD to sign Konerko; so if we don't, then I hope we spend the money and spend it on equivalent talent. The thing is, this year, we have no holes, so I would think the goal is to start reeling in more above-average talent, which Konerko surely is. Hey, if there's a .400 OBP lead-off hitter out there, that would be nice too; but I haven't see one.

Hitmen77
11-29-2005, 09:49 AM
I think this may come down to a few other contract details. If I remember correctly, Konerko had been asking for a no trade clause. At the age of 29, the five years may not be that big of a risk, although not being able to trade him would limit the team's ability to mitigate that risk, if he should not become a good fit in the future. He is not the kind of guy that you would likely ever want to remove from your club house, but the need for different kinds of player personnel is hard to predict 5 years into the future.....

If PK stays with the Sox, he will automatically get a no-trade clause in about a year by becoming a 5/10 player. So, essentially the only issue on this item for the Sox is to whether they are willing to have the no-trade clause begin in the 2006 season instead of the 2007 season.

Professor
11-29-2005, 10:04 AM
They'll probably dump Finely and move Erstad back to CF. Or DH Anderson F/T and put Erstad in LF. Kotchman hasnt proven he can play yet either.
More importantly, the Angels have a bigger battle to fight, The LA Dodgers. It is a battle they are currently winning and probably want to keep the pressure on. Remember the Angels were not that popular before they won the series, they were playing 2nd fiddle to the Dodgers. Big signings like this keep the focus on them. With their renewed fan interest and an owner willing to spend $$, what do they have to lose?

When the Angels were in the Manny Ramirez discussion, Anderson made it clear he didn't want to DH.

mjharrison72
11-29-2005, 10:04 AM
Yes Thome is more proven, but IMO, Konerko has show evidence that 2003 was the fluke, and '04-'05 the norm.

I really want to believe that, but I simply don't know if I can... although he hit 20 HR before and 20 HR after the All-Star break, he hit for only a .249 average before the break and a .323 average after. Drove in 10 less runs AFTER the break (55-45).

Obviously the production can be there, and when Konerko is hot, he's on fire. The problem is, he gets cold quite often, and even though he comes up with a clutch homer to silence some of the critics, many of us still know him as the rally killer: GIDPK.

I think Konerko's 2005 is definitely evidence (but not PROOF) that he has turned a corner in terms of consistency in his production. As much as I want him back, though, I don't think he's necessarily worth a $65 million risk over five years.

Paulwny
11-29-2005, 10:19 AM
In 2003, while PK was in a month long slump, there was quite a discussion here about PK having a chronic hip problem. A few stated that this was definately the case. Does anyone know for sure about a chronic hip problem ?

infohawk
11-29-2005, 10:23 AM
I'm obviously not a finance guy, but I was kicking this around in my head.

I wonder if Paulie would accept 4/$48 million with a mutual option 5th year at $12 accompanied by a buyout clause of around $ 4-5 million for the 5th year? That's $52-53 million in guaranteed money with the Sox, and potentially worth up to $60 million. Even if the Sox bought him out of the 5th year, another team would only have to pay him $7-8 million for one year (very doable) to equal the $12 million for the year he would have gotten had the Sox kept him for the 5th year.

This would probably get him $60 over 5 years, and should be enough to get him to stay if he really does like his situation with the Sox as much as he says he does. If he were to choose another team because they offered a package for $65 million over 5 years, then I guess I'd have to say "goodbye and good luck!"

mjharrison72
11-29-2005, 10:29 AM
I'm obviously not a finance guy, but I was kicking this around in my head.

I wonder if Paulie would accept 4/$48 million with a mutual option 5th year at $12 accompanied by a buyout clause of around $ 4-5 million for the 5th year? That's $52-53 million in guaranteed money with the Sox, and potentially worth up to $60 million. Even if the Sox bought him out of the 5th year, another team would only have to pay him $7-8 million for one year (very doable) to equal the $12 million for the year he would have gotten had the Sox kept him for the 5th year.

This would probably get him $60 over 5 years, and should be enough to get him to stay if he really does like his situation with the Sox as much as he says he does. If he were to choose another team because they offered a package for $65 million over 5 years, then I guess I'd have to say "goodbye and good luck!"

It's this kind of dealing, though, that gives ammunition to critics who say JR is cheap and disrespectfully low-balls players. It would defintiely be a smarter way to go, but I think the situation here, with another offer reportedly on the table, makes this kind of deal a non-starter.

kruzer31
11-29-2005, 10:47 AM
Rotoworld reports that the Angels have bumped their offer to 5 years 60 mil. Im a little worried that he will take that cuz of the 5 years. PLEASE KW get on the horn and give Paulie 5 years. He is only 29 for pete sake. You took on thome at 35 years of age and at the end of Paulie's contract he will only be 34. What is the deal here, we are in a prime prime prime scenario to try to win another title coming off all the extra money from playoffs and the boost in season ticket holders for 2006.
DO not let Pualie go, I dont think the clubhouse can survive losing two of its leaders in Paulie and Aaron. KW, if you have to , add a dollar to the ticket price increases or something, the WHITE SOX ORGANIZATION NEEDS PAUL KONERKO, he is the face of the White Sox and the leader, just pay that man the money he has earned by carrying the offense through the playoffs and WS. Remember how you all felt when you were just wishing for that one magical hit with the bases loaded and for some reason the baseball gods said you know what Chicago, here is your time and BOOM, GRAND SLAM. Did that not make you feel like 60 million bucks?

Chicken Dinner
11-29-2005, 10:49 AM
It's out of Kenny's hands now. It's up to Jerry R.

Steelrod
11-29-2005, 10:50 AM
It's out of Kenny's hands now. It's up to Jerry R.
Nope, it's up to Paul K.

markopat
11-29-2005, 10:53 AM
Rotoworld reports that the Angels have bumped their offer to 5 years 60 mil. Im a little worried that he will take that cuz of the 5 years. PLEASE KW get on the horn and give Paulie 5 years. He is only 29 for pete sake. You took on thome at 35 years of age and at the end of Paulie's contract he will only be 34. What is the deal here, we are in a prime prime prime scenario to try to win another title coming off all the extra money from playoffs and the boost in season ticket holders for 2006.
DO not let Pualie go, I dont think the clubhouse can survive losing two of its leaders in Paulie and Aaron. KW, if you have to , add a dollar to the ticket price increases or something, the WHITE SOX ORGANIZATION NEEDS PAUL KONERKO, he is the face of the White Sox and the leader, just pay that man the money he has earned by carrying the offense through the playoffs and WS. Remember how you all felt when you were just wishing for that one magical hit with the bases loaded and for some reason the baseball gods said you know what Chicago, here is your time and BOOM, GRAND SLAM. Did that not make you feel like 60 million bucks?

Damn man, 60 Million for Konerko? We can do a lot with that money. I was thinking 12 million a year was a stretch...In Kenny I Trust!

It's Time
11-29-2005, 10:53 AM
IMO, Konerko will sign with LAA. The only reason I say this is because Konerko seemed (again, just my opinion) to take a swipe at KW and JR when he said this could have been resolved last year but the White Sox didn't want to lock him up.

His dad seems to be a very prominent figure in this whole thing as well. From what he said, Paul will not be giving any "hometown discounts". Money talks here, not any sentimental feelings Paul may have.

kruzer31
11-29-2005, 10:57 AM
Now on the Angels board there are reports that Paulie is flying in today to meet with the Angels and that the offer may be 5 years 65mil. Maybe the Big Hurt will finish his career in silver and black after all.

Hangar18
11-29-2005, 11:06 AM
It's out of Kenny's hands now. It's up to Jerry R.

:reinsy

Hey, dont look at me. The guys a jerk in the clubhouse ......
Was never there when we needed him. Its not like he was the World Series MVP

Hangar18
11-29-2005, 11:18 AM
IMO, Konerko will sign with LAA. The only reason I say this is because Konerko seemed (again, just my opinion) to take a swipe at KW and JR when he said this could have been resolved last year but the White Sox didn't want to lock him up.

His dad seems to be a very prominent figure in this whole thing as well. From what he said, Paul will not be giving any "hometown discounts". Money talks here, not any sentimental feelings Paul may have.

YUP. Thats why in Feb and March, I was saying this was the last year of Paul Konerko. When all the Konerko trade rumors surfaced, I knew he was a goner.
But luckily, noone wanted him, and we were forced to trade Carlos Lee instead. Things worked out great, but the SOX took a foolish (some thought it was a wise) gamble by saying they would wait til the end of the season to revisit his contract status. Well they privately alienated him, and deep down he was pretty mad about it, and now wants to stick it to Jerry. Hometown discounts were available before spring training, not after his ALCS MVP. Its par for the course, SOX have done this numerous times before, but this time, at least KENNY had a backup plan in place (getting Thome now) and we'll be able to SAVE SOME MONEY. The SOX never intended on keeping PK after this season. The WS and his MVP heroics down the stretch certainly makes the move look bad, but why risk alienating your own player by refusing to deal with him til after the season and risk having to Pay the Piper? If we keep him, we'll have to OVERPAY now. Ironically, all the money we were trying to save last season goes out the window if we overpay for Konerko

The Piper wants to get paid now ......

nccwsfan
11-29-2005, 11:20 AM
I would not sign Konerko to a five-year, $65 million deal. He is not a superstar player. His lack of speed on the bases, his being prone to slumps and his tendency to hit into double plays are definite negatives. It would not make sense to pay Paulie so much more than the next highest paid guy on the team (nearly half of Thome's salary will be paid by Philadelphia), because everybody knows that the pitching staff is the main reason we won the World Series. So, at that price, it's best that we let Paulie go to the Angels.

You still need offense to win. Pitching and defense was the staple of this team, and no one's going to argue with that, but at some point you need the bats to offset any pitching woes.

Paul Konerko is 29 years old. He had a .909 OPS in 2005 and an .894 OPS in 2004. Throw out 2003 (we all agree- bad year) and you have a guy who's been among the league leaders in HR, RBI, OBP, SLG, and OPS since 2001. He is now in the prime of his career, and I would think that his chances of him continuing this rate of production is much higher than 50/50.

The speed argument isn't so valid when you put up numbers like that. Not everyone in MLB is Barry Bonds, so you offset the lack of speed for big offensive production. Find a free agent in the prime of his career who puts up PK numbers for less than $15 million. It's pretty tough to do.

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2005, 11:24 AM
It's this kind of dealing, though, that gives ammunition to critics who say JR is cheap and disrespectfully low-balls players. It would defintiely be a smarter way to go, but I think the situation here, with another offer reportedly on the table, makes this kind of deal a non-starter.I disagree. It's getting hard to find a long-term contract that DOESN'T have an option/buyout in its final year. It's a way of protecting yourself in case a player seriously declines, while still giving the player a near-certainty he's going to make almost all his money. We'll see how these rumored deals play out, but I'll be surprised if any 5-year deal he gets doesn't have a buyout in its final year.

Frater Perdurabo
11-29-2005, 11:42 AM
The Piper wants to get paid now ......

Hangar, I'm fine with paying the piper now and you should be too. No matter what happens, we'll be able to tell our children and grandchildren that we saw the White Sox break 8 decades of futility and domiate their way to a World Championship.

If Paulie leaves, they will be able to invest that payroll elsewhere to offset the loss of his expected offensive production. It's a win-win, really.

:smile:

mjharrison72
11-29-2005, 11:46 AM
I disagree. It's getting hard to find a long-term contract that DOESN'T have an option/buyout in its final year. It's a way of protecting yourself in case a player seriously declines, while still giving the player a near-certainty he's going to make almost all his money. We'll see how these rumored deals play out, but I'll be surprised if any 5-year deal he gets doesn't have a buyout in its final year.
Well, I was basing that on the assumption that the other offer was a plain-old, 5-year /$65 million contract, with each worth the same amount and no options on the last year(s). Obviously any team is going to want to protect itself from paying too much for someone who isn't producing (unless, of course, you're the Detroit Tigers). My point was that when another team has come along and offered a guaranteed $13 million a year for five years, you look like a chump when you retort with four years at $12 million a year with a buyout.

There are three things KW/JR can do in this situation:
1) Wait to see the best offer PK gets from another team and match it or do them one better - you keep Konerko at a high price.
2) Wait to see what another team offers Konerko and then say "no thanks." You lose Konerko, but have money left over to sign talented players who are willing to play for a classy organization that just won a championship.
3) Make Konerko a low-ball offer, either before or after other teams have made him a solid offer. You lose Konerko, but more importantly, I'm afraid you would lose respect, too - and with it, those potential players who want to play for the Sox.

Maybe I'm wrong... maybe the Sox lose face no matter what they do if they can't re-sign Konerko. The more I think about it - and after reading the Blue Jays offered Giles 5/$55 million - the more I think the Sox NEED to bring Konerko back, no matter the cost.

KyWhiSoxFan
11-29-2005, 11:49 AM
Everyone talks about offense, but what are the defensive advantages of PK over Thome? I don't know how good a defensive player Thome is, but PK really has learned to pick the ball out of the dirt real well. How much do we lose there if we lose PK?

Randar68
11-29-2005, 12:02 PM
Paul Konerko is 29 years old. He had a .909 OPS in 2005 and an .894 OPS in 2004. Throw out 2003 (we all agree- bad year) and you have a guy who's been among the league leaders in HR, RBI, OBP, SLG, and OPS since 2001. He is now in the prime of his career, and I would think that his chances of him continuing this rate of production is much higher than 50/50.

You can't throw out an entire season if you want to take 4 or 5-year totals...

PK is very mediocre in OPS and OBP for a slugger and has had a pretty mediocre HR:RBI ratio as well.

League leaders? blah! Hell, Rowand out-OPS'd him last year! His best CAREER season is worse than Thome, Helton, or Delgado's career AVERAGES!

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2005, 12:06 PM
Well, I was basing that on the assumption that the other offer was a plain-old, 5-year /$65 million contract, with each worth the same amount and no options on the last year(s). Obviously any team is going to want to protect itself from paying too much for someone who isn't producing (unless, of course, you're the Detroit Tigers). My point was that when another team has come along and offered a guaranteed $13 million a year for five years, you look like a chump when you retort with four years at $12 million a year with a buyout.

There are three things KW/JR can do in this situation:
1) Wait to see the best offer PK gets from another team and match it or do them one better - you keep Konerko at a high price.
2) Wait to see what another team offers Konerko and then say "no thanks." You lose Konerko, but have money left over to sign talented players who are willing to play for a classy organization that just won a championship.
3) Make Konerko a low-ball offer, either before or after other teams have made him a solid offer. You lose Konerko, but more importantly, I'm afraid you would lose respect, too - and with it, those potential players who want to play for the Sox.

Maybe I'm wrong... maybe the Sox lose face no matter what they do if they can't re-sign Konerko. The more I think about it - and after reading the Blue Jays offered Giles 5/$55 million - the more I think the Sox NEED to bring Konerko back, no matter the cost.Kenny's M.O. has been stated many times, and I think it's the only smart way to play it.

1. Decide on how much you're willing to pay.
2. Don't go above it.

I'm sure Kenny has a figure in mind. If another team makes a better offer, he'll make his best offer and if Konerko declines, they move on.

nodiggity59
11-29-2005, 12:08 PM
You can't throw out an entire season if you want to take 4 or 5-year totals...

PK is very mediocre in OPS and OBP for a slugger and has had a pretty mediocre HR:RBI ratio as well.

League leaders? blah! Hell, Rowand out-OPS'd him last year! His best CAREER season is worse than Thome, Helton, or Delgado's career AVERAGES!

He's only 29. Is it so unreasonable for people to want only 1 of our 2 main sluggers to be old? Individually I like any of those guys better than PK. But factor in that we don't have to give anything up to get him and the fact that he's less likely to decline or break down and I think you have to take him. I would be mortified if we had Thome and Helton/Giles next year. Way too much age. PK may not be "outstanding" but I think everyone agrees you're gonna get a .900 OPS for the next 3 years. That kind of consistency is hard to expect from 2 guys 33+.

nccwsfan
11-29-2005, 12:09 PM
You can't throw out an entire season if you want to take 4 or 5-year totals...

PK is very mediocre in OPS and OBP for a slugger and has had a pretty mediocre HR:RBI ratio as well.

League leaders? blah! Hell, Rowand out-OPS'd him last year! His best CAREER season is worse than Thome, Helton, or Delgado's career AVERAGES!

Where are people getting that Rowand had a better OPS than Konerko in 2005? I'm pulling these numbers off of MLB.com:

Konerko
.375 OBP (AL Rank 13th)
.534 SLG (AL Rank 9th)
.909 OPS (AL Rank 9th)

Rowand
.329 OBP
.407 SLG
.736 OPS

Most importantly, we don't have to trade anyone to get PK. I'm not saying Konerko's a better hitter than Delgado, Thome, or Helton. I am saying that if we let PK go it's going to be a lot tougher to get that type of production back.

mjharrison72
11-29-2005, 12:11 PM
Kenny's M.O. has been stated many times, and I think it's the only smart way to play it.

1. Decide on how much you're willing to pay.
2. Don't go above it.

I'm sure Kenny has a figure in mind. If another team makes a better offer, he'll make his best offer and if Konerko declines, they move on.
Touche.
Ditto for gambling, which is what signing MLB contracts can be like: Decide how much you're willing to lose, and walk away rather than lose more than that.

The Deacon
11-29-2005, 12:15 PM
League leaders? blah! Hell, Rowand out-OPS'd him last year! His best CAREER season is worse than Thome, Helton, or Delgado's career AVERAGES!

And those three 1B are paid accordingly. Konerko should command "2nd Tier" power 1B dollars, about 11-12 million/year. IMO he doesnt deserve more than that.

Flight #24
11-29-2005, 12:15 PM
Touche.
Ditto for gambling, which is what signing MLB contracts can be like: Decide how much you're willing to lose, and walk away rather than lose more than that.

Only issue is backup plan. If it's Nomar, then IMO you're treading water at best by swapping Konerko-Rowand-Everett for Thome-Anderson-Nomar, and you added a ton of injury risk. Not sure who else is out there that's any better than Nomar though.

Trade market would be what? Helton seems unlikely. Ditto Manny (although IMO he'd have to literally poison teammates to negate his offensive impact). Any other power hitters possibly available?

sircaffey1
11-29-2005, 12:19 PM
Where are people getting that Rowand had a better OPS than Konerko in 2005? I'm pulling these numbers off of MLB.com:

Konerko
.375 OBP (AL Rank 13th)
.534 SLG (AL Rank 9th)
.909 OPS (AL Rank 9th)

Rowand
.329 OBP
.407 SLG
.736 OPS

Most importantly, we don't have to trade anyone to get PK. I'm not saying Konerko's a better hitter than Delgado, Thome, or Helton. I am saying that if we let PK go it's going to be a lot tougher to get that type of production back.

Last year meant 2004.

1917
11-29-2005, 12:25 PM
Now on the Angels board there are reports that Paulie is flying in today to meet with the Angels and that the offer may be 5 years 65mil. Maybe the Big Hurt will finish his career in silver and black after all.

Damn they got a lot of Money to spend...doesn't Manny want to go there too? When they won the WS they did it with a 50 million dollar payroll....60 or 65, sorry take him....he can get a serviceable 1st baseman to handle it until something comes up...still not 100% on Thome playing 1st withthe injurys

The Deacon
11-29-2005, 12:29 PM
Trade market would be what? Helton seems unlikely. Ditto Manny (although IMO he'd have to literally poison teammates to negate his offensive impact). Any other power hitters possibly available?

If I was a betting man, I'd bet that KW has his eyes on Aubrey Huff as a backup plan.

Hangar18
11-29-2005, 12:33 PM
Hangar, I'm fine with paying the piper now and you should be too. No matter what happens, we'll be able to tell our children and grandchildren that we saw the White Sox break 8 decades of futility and domiate their way to a World Championship.

If Paulie leaves, they will be able to invest that payroll elsewhere to offset the loss of his expected offensive production. It's a win-win, really.

:smile:

Im saying we couldve had him cheaper ......... In January

Randar68
11-29-2005, 12:44 PM
Im saying we couldve had him cheaper ......... In January

and we could have been stuck with a 2003 version of Konerko for 10 million a year. It's called cost-benefit analysis. What you're doing is called "revisionist history"

I still don't think he's worth more than 11-12 million, and he would have still made over 10 million a year on any contract we signed him to prior to the season. Therefore, to be more sure about our investment, it will end up costing us a bit more, but that is a more attractive option than being stuck with an albatross Chan Ho Park type of contract.

SaltyPretzel
11-29-2005, 12:44 PM
Im saying we couldve had him cheaper ......... In January

Yeah, but who knows whether or not he has to same type of year he had during a non-contract year.

Frater Perdurabo
11-29-2005, 12:48 PM
Im saying we couldve had him cheaper ......... In January

It's at least possible, though, that Paulie may have struggled in 2005 had he tried to live up to a new contract. (Isn't that part of why he struggled in 2003?) For that matter, he did struggle in April and May of 2005. I don't want to knock the man, but it's also true that June-October of 2005 was the first time Paulie had ever put together a hot streak of five consecutive months in one season.

I just think that for the money the Sox are said to have available for the 2006 payroll, they would be better off investing it in Giles, Frank and a bullpen lefty (making Marte expendable in a trade for other usable parts) than in Konerko alone.

whitesoxwin
11-29-2005, 12:58 PM
L.A. Times story

P.K. offer from L.A.A. of Anaheim = 5 years $60 million

Here is the link:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-angels29nov29,1,3223924.story?coll=la-headlines-sports&ctrack=1&cset=true

Taliesinrk
11-29-2005, 12:58 PM
Any other power hitters possibly available?

Indeed there are.. their names are both Frank Thomas and Brian Giles (pseudo power hitter)

nodiggity59
11-29-2005, 12:59 PM
L.A. Times story

P.K. offer from L.A.A. of Anaheim = 5 years $60 million

Here is the link:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-angels29nov29,1,3223924.story?coll=la-headlines-sports&ctrack=1&cset=true

5/$12mil per is good. Get'er done.

Flight #24
11-29-2005, 01:23 PM
Indeed there are.. their names are both Frank Thomas and Brian Giles (pseudo power hitter)

I meant guys that are a)reliable - which excludes Frank, and/or b)available at a reasonable rate, which excludes Giles if the rumors of the Blue Jays 5/$55 offer are true.

Thomas is a gimme. The problem is that he's unreliable. Who else is out there in the event (or, depending on your perspective, the eventuality) that Frank gets hurt again? Not to mention the increased injury risk in THome if he's playing 1B every day.

Flight #24
11-29-2005, 01:24 PM
L.A. Times story

P.K. offer from L.A.A. of Anaheim = 5 years $60 million

Here is the link:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-angels29nov29,1,3223924.story?coll=la-headlines-sports&ctrack=1&cset=true


The only other teams alive in the bidding for Konerko are the White Sox, who are reluctant to go a fifth year but, according to a team source, would do so if Konerko receives five-year proposals from other teams, and the Baltimore Orioles, who are willing to add a fifth year to their initial four-year, $50-million offer but are still long-shots to sign Konerko.


If true, I don't see them not being competitive enough to keep him, unless he just really wants to play closer to AZ.

longshot7
11-29-2005, 01:51 PM
ESPN Radio out here in LA is reporting the 5-year, 60-mil offer from the Halo's as well, with Paulie flying out to scout things out.

That said, I don't see any reason to panic yet. KW will get the final offer and I expect Paulie to stay.

nccwsfan
11-29-2005, 02:24 PM
I meant guys that are a)reliable - which excludes Frank, and/or b)available at a reasonable rate, which excludes Giles if the rumors of the Blue Jays 5/$55 offer are true.

Thomas is a gimme. The problem is that he's unreliable. Who else is out there in the event (or, depending on your perspective, the eventuality) that Frank gets hurt again? Not to mention the increased injury risk in THome if he's playing 1B every day.

It just so happens that there is a power hitter on the market that you can count on for at least 35 HR's, 100 RBI's, and an .850 OPS. Plus he's in the prime of his career and has stayed relatively healthy throughout (reliable).
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/5908.jpg

5 years/$60 million is a good deal that will not hamstring the team in future years. I'm not trying to be a homer here, but his production coupled with Jim Thome is flat out dangerous. Combine it with the pitching and our chances in 2006 look great.

maurice
11-29-2005, 02:24 PM
a guy who's been among the league leaders in HR, RBI, OBP, SLG, and OPS since 2001.

This is an extremely liberal use of the phrase "among the league leaders." The actual numbers aren't quite as impressive as you remember, especially before 2004:
YEAR - HR - RBI - OBP - SLG - OPS
2001 - 32 - 99 - .349 - .507 - .856
2002 - 27 - 104 - .359 - .498 - .857
2003 - 18 - 65 - .305 - .399 - .704
2004 - 41 - 117 - .359 - .535 - .894
2005 - 40 - 100 - .375 - .534 - .909

In his highest OPS year (this one), he ranked as follows v. other MLB regulars: 67th in AVE, 32nd in OBP, 21st in SLG, 25th in OPS, 148th in 2B, last in 3B, 8th in HR, 27th in RBI, 29th in R, and last in SB.

Most notable is his sudden increase in HR in 2004, the year that the roof at the Cell was reconstructed.

tstrike2000
11-29-2005, 02:29 PM
I read this today on the Angel's chat room on their mlb web site.On 1bignasty.com(Joe McDonnell a radio personality) states that Konerko is close to 5 YEAR 65 MILLION deal.Sorry i don't know how to add link.

If and that's a big if, the Angels are willing to pay that much money when they have a better hitter on their team (Vlady) then let 'em have Konerko. That's way more than I think he's worth.

TomBradley72
11-29-2005, 02:33 PM
I'd pay that kind of money to keep Paulie....he's definitely worth the money in the 1st three years but some risk in years 4 and 5. But I think those years are almost irrelevent to the decision. The window of opportunity is 2006-07...when we have our starting rotation locked up, Thome, Uribe, Crede, etc....if we "overpay" but pick up another ring or two...the franchise will reap the benefits for years to come. 5/60...I'd do it.

IowaSox1971
11-29-2005, 03:01 PM
Five years at that kind of money is too much to give a player like Konerko. What if he goes into a huge slump and has a year like 2003 all over again? His horrible season that year probably kept us from going to the playoffs. Paulie had a good year for us in 2005, but it was his contract year. How will he do next year, when he has the real big five-year contract and he has already won a world championship? Will there be any motivation for him? And if you really examine the numbers, Paulie had 100 RBIs last season. That's exactly the same number that Danny Tartabull had for us while batting cleanup in 1996. Any halfway-decent cleanup hitter in the American League should get 100 RBIs. It would not be impossible to replace him or at least get someone who can come close to his run production.

nccwsfan
11-29-2005, 03:05 PM
This is an extremely liberal use of the phrase "among the league leaders." The actual numbers aren't quite as impressive as you remember, especially before 2004:
YEAR - HR - RBI - OBP - SLG - OPS
2001 - 32 - 99 - .349 - .507 - .856
2002 - 27 - 104 - .359 - .498 - .857
2003 - 18 - 65 - .305 - .399 - .704
2004 - 41 - 117 - .359 - .535 - .894
2005 - 40 - 100 - .375 - .534 - .909

In his highest OPS year (this one), he ranked as follows v. other MLB regulars: 67th in AVE, 32nd in OBP, 21st in SLG, 25th in OPS, 148th in 2B, last in 3B, 8th in HR, 27th in RBI, 29th in R, and last in SB.

Most notable is his sudden increase in HR in 2004, the year that the roof at the Cell was reconstructed.

American League Rank
YEAR - HR - RBI - OBP - SLG - OPS
2001 - 12 - T21 - 33 - 19 - 23
2002 - T19 - 15 - 28 - 20 - 20

2004 - 2 - 6 - 33 - 10 - 15
2005 - 5 - 13 - 13 - 9 - 9

So I'll eat some crow and agree that I was a little liberal with his pre-2004 numbers. However, I also see that his numbers improved from year to year (03' aside), and that you can make a case his numbers will continue to remain at current levels. IMO his 2004 numbers (OBP aside) should be considered to be among the AL leaders and his 2005 numbers (OBP included) is certainly among the AL leaders.

Fandom aside, my argument is that it's much easier to re-up at 5/$65 than it is to a) trade talent for the same production, or b) try to get someone similar in 07', 08'....PK and Thome in the same lineup would be sweet.

hawkjt
11-29-2005, 03:06 PM
If there was ever a guy who will not get complacent after signing a big contract it is PK. His problem would be pressing to justify the deal. He is self-motivated more than any player on this team. He never wants to make an out.

I have said all along that 5 yr/65 is the magic number. Sox should and will do it.

nccwsfan
11-29-2005, 03:09 PM
Five years at that kind of money is too much to give a player like Konerko. What if he goes into a huge slump and has a year like 2003 all over again? His horrible season that year probably kept us from going to the playoffs. Paulie had a good year for us in 2005, but it was his contract year. How will he do next year, when he has the real big five-year contract and he has already won a world championship? Will there be any motivation for him? And if you really examine the numbers, Paulie had 100 RBIs last season. That's exactly the same number that Danny Tartabull had for us while batting cleanup in 1996. Any halfway-decent cleanup hitter in the American League should get 100 RBIs. It would not be impossible to replace him or at least get someone who can come close to his run production.

Why do you assume that he'll slump again like he did in the first half of 03'? Couldn't he just as likely have the same level, or higher level, of production he's had the past two years? His motivation is that he is and would be the team leader of the World Champions...I don't question this for a moment.

Paulwny
11-29-2005, 03:09 PM
If there was ever a guy who will not get complacent after signing a big contract it is PK. His problem would be pressing to justify the deal. He is self-motivated more than any player on this team. He never wants to make an out.



I can't think of any player who goes to the plate hoping to make an out.

Flight #24
11-29-2005, 03:10 PM
2 points that I think are being missed by many here.

1) There aren't any real alternatives. Giles is just as expensive & long, but a lot older (if you believe the Jays offer). Piazza? Nomar? Kevin Millar? Or make a trade and include some pretty good prospects for an older guy like Helton with cash to provide a similar contract and a similar length? Paulie's a better bet than any of them & is younger than Helton and won't require prospects.

2) In yr 5, Paulie will be 34, which is just getting to the point where you'd expect a significant dropoff to occur. So you're risking at most 1 year of real sunk $$$. In any event, in 4 -5 years, I'd bet a 35HR hitter is going for $10+ just based on salary inflation. So you'll be overpaying Paulie by a few million in the out year. That's worth it.

In an ideal world, yes, $5/60 or 5/$65 is overpaying and you'd be better with some alternatives. In the current world, there just isn't a better option, so it's either spend it on Paulie or spend less on lesser players without corresponding upgrades elsewhere, which just makes you a worse team.

slavko
11-29-2005, 03:28 PM
I love Paul as a person, as a teammate, as a clubhouse leader. But go back to those days in April-June when he was in a funk at the plate and calling out teammates in the press and posters to this board were bemoaning the fact that we had to trade the smoking-hot Carlos Lee because the Brewers didn't want a first baseman. Guys and gals, he's not worth the money he's being offered. No slugger, Thome included, is worth the money they are getting.

If, God forbid, we had to play Ross Gload at first base, do you think he and Big Frank could match the .246 RISP that $13M Paul put up this year? Do you think that some of the $13M could go to Garland, Crede, AJ, Big Frank and the like and we'd be better off in spite of ourselves?

Love your kids, love your wife, love your parents, love your school. Don't fall so much in love with a player that you can't see the whole picture.

DickAllen72
11-29-2005, 05:10 PM
I'll give PK 4/$52 million or 5/$60. That's more than fair.

That's absolutely correct. The Sox should make him those offers--let him chose which he wants--and tell him to take it or leave it.

No way will nor should KW get in a bidding war for Paulie. If he turns the Sox offer down, try to sign Giles for 3/$30-33 and give Frank $2M or so.

MarySwiss
11-29-2005, 05:37 PM
It just so happens that there is a power hitter on the market that you can count on for at least 35 HR's, 100 RBI's, and an .850 OPS. Plus he's in the prime of his career and has stayed relatively healthy throughout (reliable).
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/5908.jpg

5 years/$60 million is a good deal that will not hamstring the team in future years. I'm not trying to be a homer here, but his production coupled with Jim Thome is flat out dangerous. Combine it with the pitching and our chances in 2006 look great.

Thank you, sane person! :cool:

Chisox003
11-29-2005, 05:51 PM
If, God forbid, we had to play Ross Gload at first base, do you think he and Big Frank could match the .246 RISP that $13M Paul put up this year? Do you think that some of the $13M could go to Garland, Crede, AJ, Big Frank and the like and we'd be better off in spite of ourselves?
:tealpolice:

Why is that "God forbid" in teal?

Cmon, do you really think Ross Gload is an every day player? So wait, let me get this straight. You want to go into the 2006 season and defend our title with an unproven rookie starting in CF, AND depend on Ross Gload starting at first base?

Even with someone, say Pierre, starting in CF, I still don't want Gload anywhere near everyday player status. I'm sorry, hes a good bench player and a nice left handed bat off the bench, but there's no way in hell I want the White Sox depending on the guy to go out there 140+ games and be productive, offensively AND defensively.

Frater Perdurabo
11-29-2005, 05:55 PM
It just so happens that there is a power hitter on the market that you can count on for at least 35 HR's, 100 RBI's, and an .850 OPS. Plus he's in the prime of his career and has stayed relatively healthy throughout (reliable).
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/5908.jpg

5 years/$60 million is a good deal that will not hamstring the team in future years. I'm not trying to be a homer here, but his production coupled with Jim Thome is flat out dangerous. Combine it with the pitching and our chances in 2006 look great.

I believe that the number of players who could hit 35 dongs, 100 RBI and an .850 OPS while playing 81 games per year at the Cell is much larger than the number of players who could do that in any park. In fact, I'll bet that Paulie would have a more difficult time doing that while playing home games in at least half of the MLB stadiums.

Don't discount the extent to which the Cell makes power hitters "look" better than they otherwise might.

slavko
11-29-2005, 08:13 PM
Why is that "God forbid" in teal?

Cmon, do you really think Ross Gload is an every day player? So wait, let me get this straight. You want to go into the 2006 season and defend our title with an unproven rookie starting in CF, AND depend on Ross Gload starting at first base?

Even with someone, say Pierre, starting in CF, I still don't want Gload anywhere near everyday player status. I'm sorry, hes a good bench player and a nice left handed bat off the bench, but there's no way in hell I want the White Sox depending on the guy to go out there 140+ games and be productive, offensively AND defensively.

"You" (meaning most posters) said the same thing about Rowand before 2004 and he turned out to be our best player that year and now that he is gone he is the subject of much hand wringing. I say Gload can hit .246 RISP like PK did when we won a WS. Remember that this scenario also lets us keep Frank. Unproven rookie? Lets load up on aging sluggers and see where it gets us.

The reason we won anything is still intact. IT'S THE PITCHING.

IowaSox1971
11-30-2005, 03:47 AM
Why do you assume that he'll slump again like he did in the first half of 03'? Couldn't he just as likely have the same level, or higher level, of production he's had the past two years? His motivation is that he is and would be the team leader of the World Champions...I don't question this for a moment.

I am not assuming he is going to have another bad year, but we have to accept that if we give him a five-year contract, at least one of those years probably will be a bad year. It's not like it's etched in stone that EVERY season in that five-year span is going to include 40 homers, 100 RBIs and numerous clutch hits, instead of double plays, long slumps, etc.

Believe me, if Danny Tartabull of 1996 could drive in 100 runs, we can get someone to drive in 100 runs in 2006.

If we're going to give big money to anyone, it should be the pitchers. Instead of being tied down with giving something like $13 million to Konerko for the next five years, let's try to use some of that money toward keeping guys like Garland, Contreras and others when they are in line for new contracts.