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downstairs
11-28-2005, 06:36 PM
The list:
Rick Aguilera, Albert Belle, Bert Blyleven, Will Clark, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Gary DiSarcina, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Steve Garvey, Dwight Gooden, Rich Gossage, Ozzie Guillen, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Tommy John, Doug Jones, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Hal Morris, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland.


Looking through this list, we may actually see NO ONE get in this year (I assume that's possible, right?)

The voters are still shying away from relievers, though I disagree.

antitwins13
11-28-2005, 06:43 PM
The list:
Rick Aguilera, Albert Belle, Bert Blyleven, Will Clark, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Gary DiSarcina, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Steve Garvey, Dwight Gooden, Rich Gossage, Ozzie Guillen, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Tommy John, Doug Jones, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Hal Morris, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland.


Looking through this list, we may actually see NO ONE get in this year (I assume that's possible, right?)

The voters are still shying away from relievers, though I disagree.


Aguilera is a joke. I have no idea why he is there, and as much as I love Ozzie I think he has a better chance getting is as a maneger someday then a player.
I think Blyleven, Tommy John, Gossage, and Andre Dawson deserve to get in.

doublem23
11-28-2005, 06:45 PM
I would vote in Brett Blyleven and Don Mattingly.

gowhitesox
11-28-2005, 07:05 PM
The list:
Rick Aguilera, Albert Belle, Bert Blyleven, Will Clark, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Gary DiSarcina, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Steve Garvey, Dwight Gooden, Rich Gossage, Ozzie Guillen, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Tommy John, Doug Jones, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Hal Morris, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland.


Looking through this list, we may actually see NO ONE get in this year (I assume that's possible, right?)

The voters are still shying away from relievers, though I disagree.

It did happen some years back when none of the candidates for the Hall of Fame got in, I forget the exact year but it did happen. Rich Gossage has been on the list for a number of years now and still hasnt gotten in.

Fenway
11-28-2005, 07:07 PM
Jim Rice

The Red Sox have sent the following fact sheet to each Hall voter

The case for Rice

Hall of Fame ballots will be mailed to more than 500 eligible voters in the next few weeks. This is Jim Rice's best shot at gaining induction. The former Sox slugger, who received just under 60 percent of the vote last year, could make up the 15 percent he needs because of three factors: 1. There is no clear-cut choice among the newcomers on the ballot; 2. His career numbers have been strengthened by the anti-steroid sentiment toward modern sluggers; and 3. Sox vice president Dick Brescianiis sending to all voters a statistical study that makes a strong case that Rice was the dominant hitter of his day. Rather than dwelling on Rice's total numbers, Bresciani compared him with his peers during three periods: 1975-84, 1976-85, and 1977-86. Rice's numbers over a 12-year span (1975-86) were the most dominating in the American League; he led in 12 categories and was top five in two others. A closer look at Bresciani's numbers:

In that 12-year period, Rice led the league in go-ahead RBIs (325), slugging (.520), hits (2,145), runs (1,098), home runs (350), RBIs (1,276), total bases (3,670) and outfield assists (125).

Including National League sluggers, he was first in five of the 12 offensive categories, second in three others.

Twenty-five players have hit 300 homers and batted .300 in a 10-year span, and of them only Rice has been excluded from the Hall.

Rice finished with 382 home runs and a career average of .298. Seventeen players who have hit at least 350 homers and hit for a .290 average or better are in the Hall.

Rice is the only player in major league history with three consecutive seasons of 35-plus homers and 200-plus hits.

Only Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Stan Musial, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth, and Ted Williams have had as high a batting average and home run combination as Rice.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/11/27/sox_could_take_old_school_approach/?page=full

RKMeibalane
11-28-2005, 07:14 PM
Rice should definitely be there. I think Mattingly and Bylevin have to wait a few more years, however.

A. Cavatica
11-28-2005, 07:21 PM
The list:
Rick Aguilera, Albert Belle, Bert Blyleven, Will Clark, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Gary DiSarcina, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Steve Garvey, Dwight Gooden, Rich Gossage, Ozzie Guillen, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Tommy John, Doug Jones, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Hal Morris, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland.

Someone will get in, probably a returnee as opposed to a first-time-eligible.

It wouldn't offend me to see Blyleven, Dawson, Jack Morris, Murphy, Rice, Sutter, or Trammell go in. Gossage, John, & Mattingly are borderline and I hope they don't make it simply because I hate the Yankees.

TDog
11-28-2005, 07:38 PM
...

Looking through this list, we may actually see NO ONE get in this year (I assume that's possible, right?)
...

If I had a ballot, I might send it back blank. I'm sure some voters will do just that. There are years, and this could be one of them, that no one is elected.

Gossage and Sutter will get votes. Belle and Dawson will get some.

I have higher standards.

samram
11-28-2005, 07:43 PM
Rice, Murphy, Blyleven, and John.

nccwsfan
11-28-2005, 07:56 PM
The list:
Rick Aguilera, Albert Belle, Bert Blyleven, Will Clark, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Gary DiSarcina, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Steve Garvey, Dwight Gooden, Rich Gossage, Ozzie Guillen, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Tommy John, Doug Jones, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Hal Morris, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland.


Looking through this list, we may actually see NO ONE get in this year (I assume that's possible, right?)

The voters are still shying away from relievers, though I disagree.

Who should get in- Bert Blyleven, Jack Morris, Lee Smith
Who will get in- Jim Rice

gowhitesox
11-28-2005, 08:10 PM
Someone will get in, probably a returnee as opposed to a first-time-eligible.
It wouldn't offend me to see Blyleven, Dawson, Jack Morris, Murphy, Rice, Sutter, or Trammell go in. Gossage, John, & Mattingly are borderline and I hope they don't make it simply because I hate the Yankees.

I know what you mean about hating the Yankees, but as for Gossage he started his carrier with our beloved Chicago White Sox. I got his autograph during spring training of 1976 in Sarasota, Florida when he was a young pitcher with the Sox.

A. Cavatica
11-28-2005, 08:33 PM
I know what you mean about hating the Yankees, but as for Gossage he started his carrier with our beloved Chicago White Sox. I got his autograph during spring training of 1976 in Sarasota, Florida when he was a young pitcher with the Sox.

And John pitched a bunch for us too. But they're identified with the Yankees.

The Deacon
11-28-2005, 08:43 PM
Who should get in- Bert Blyleven, Jack Morris, Lee Smith
Who will get in- Jim Rice

IMO these are the top 4 contenders. I'm fairly confident they'll all get in eventually. Goose and Dawson have a decent chance too. Mattingly has a chance b/c he is adored by the media and the Yankees, I personally dont think his stats make the cut.

NeverForget42
11-28-2005, 09:46 PM
no love for ozzie?

i think don mattingly should get in

Banix12
11-28-2005, 09:50 PM
Any of Morris, Gossage, Blyleven, Rice, and Smith I don't have a problem with.

buehrle4cy05
11-28-2005, 09:55 PM
Rick Aguilera, Albert Belle, Bert Blyleven, Will Clark, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Gary DiSarcina, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Steve Garvey, Dwight Gooden, Rich Gossage, Ozzie Guillen, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Tommy John, Doug Jones, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Hal Morris, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland.

Deserving: Blyleven, Gossage, Jack Morris, Rice, Smith, Sutter, Alex Fernandez (we really need a teal/deeppink combo color).

Doesn't deserve: Dawson, Garvey, Gooden, Hershiser, Murphy, Parker, Trammel

Why are these guys on the ballot?: Aguiilera, DiSarcina, Jefferies, Hal Morris

Hey, maybe Ozzie will get in...

Banix12
11-28-2005, 10:12 PM
Rick Aguilera, Albert Belle, Bert Blyleven, Will Clark, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Gary DiSarcina, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Steve Garvey, Dwight Gooden, Rich Gossage, Ozzie Guillen, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Tommy John, Doug Jones, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Hal Morris, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland.

Deserving: Blyleven, Gossage, Jack Morris, Rice, Smith, Sutter, Alex Fernandez (we really need a teal/deeppink combo color).

Doesn't deserve: Dawson, Garvey, Gooden, Hershiser, Murphy, Parker, Trammel

Why are these guys on the ballot?: Aguiilera, DiSarcina, Jefferies, Hal Morris

Hey, maybe Ozzie will get in...





It takes a little time but try this Alex Fernandez

Not a perfect solution but it beats nothing.

The Deacon
11-28-2005, 10:37 PM
Man this guy was good. Pays to be nice, people would probably be giving him strong consideration right now. His numbers are better than Rice's (another mean dude) but he played in Boston so of course he'll get in.

http://baseballreference.com/b/belleal01.shtml

Banix12
11-28-2005, 10:46 PM
Man this guy was good. Pays to be nice, people would probably be giving him strong consideration right now. His numbers are better than Rice's (another mean dude) but he played in Boston so of course he'll get in.

http://baseballreference.com/b/belleal01.shtml

I think he should get consideration, his stats fall short of the big statistical markers mostly because his career was cut short by injury. But man he burned so many bridges over the years I can't imagine him getting any real consideration right now. I think he's one of those cases where we need to get farther away from his playing days before he gets any realistic consideration.

ChiSoxRowand
11-28-2005, 11:02 PM
Off the top of my head the only one I'd say is Blyleven.

AZChiSoxFan
11-29-2005, 09:33 AM
I think Hal Morris should definitely get in.

socko82
11-29-2005, 04:19 PM
Blyleven and Morris

Flight #24
11-29-2005, 04:38 PM
It takes a little time but try this Alex Fernandez

Not a perfect solution but it beats nothing.

Does anyone who played get consideation for the ballot? How the hell does Alex Fernandez get consideration? He was solid for about 5-6 years, but only really really good for a couple. And he had a relatively short career due to injury. What am I missing?

TheVulture
11-29-2005, 08:49 PM
Does anyone who played get consideation for the ballot? How the hell does Alex Fernandez get consideration? He was solid for about 5-6 years, but only really really good for a couple. And he had a relatively short career due to injury. What am I missing?

BBWAA Screening Committee A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.
I'd say the most deserving is Blyleven - 5th all- time in Ks, 9th in shutouts and 25th in wins. 10 times in the top 10 ERA, 15 times top 10 in Ks, 13 in the top 5. 11 times top 10 in WHIP, 16 times top 10 K/BB ratio - I'm sure the argument has been made many times, but if this guy played for certain other teams, he would've been in 1st ballot at 95+ percent.

TheVulture
11-29-2005, 09:38 PM
His numbers are better than Rice's (another mean dude) but he played in Boston so of course he'll get in.



You have to consider the era, too, though - Rice's numbers in the 70's and early 80's relative to the league were more impressive. For example, Belle's best year was probably 1995 - the league BA that year .270, slugging .427 and 2164 homers in the AL. Rice's best year was 1978, league BA .261, slugging percentage .385. and 1680 homers.

Plus, people just didn't put up numbers like Rice did at that time - in '78 he led the league with 46 hrs while hitting .315, the next guy had only 34. Only 6 other players hit over 30 HRs and those guys were all in the .240-.270 range, except Larry Hisle, who hit .290. Back then Rice was the only guy hitting a lot of homers while batting in the .300-.320 range for quite a few years.

In Belle's prime era you had guys like Thomas, Griffey, Bonds, Juan Gonzalez etc all putting up those type of numbers. Not to take anything away from Belle, but Jim Rice, much like Dick Allen a few years before, put up numbers that aren't quite as impressive as some guys the past 15 years or so, or guys in the '50s and early 60s like Aaron, Mantle, Mays, Robinson, etc, but compared to the rest of the league at the time, there weren't other guys putting up those numbers.

Besides, the dude once the league in HRs and triples!

Fenway
11-30-2005, 11:38 AM
One problem with the Hall of Fame election process is the voters are top heavy with New York based writers ( close to 100 of the 500 card carrying members come from the NY market )

Rice has been hurt over the years because he hated the media.

I know in my heart that if Jim Rice doesn't get hurt by Vernon Rule the last week of the 75 season and misses the post-season, the Curse of the Bambino never happens because Boston wins the 75 Series with Rice. His replacement Cecil Cooper did nothing in that series and who knows what a young Jim Rice would have done.

Clembasbal
11-30-2005, 01:09 PM
Of that list: Mattingly, Byleven

Of the other list: Buck O'Neil and Minnie Minoso

Of Write Ins: Pete Rose

bobowhite
11-30-2005, 02:14 PM
The list:
Rick Aguilera, Albert Belle, Bert Blyleven, Will Clark, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Gary DiSarcina, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Steve Garvey, Dwight Gooden, Rich Gossage, Ozzie Guillen, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Tommy John, Doug Jones, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Hal Morris, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland.

I'd vote for: Blyleven, Dawson, John, Mattingly, Jack Morris, Rice and Trammel.

Who'll get in:

:cool:

TheKittle
11-30-2005, 02:55 PM
I don't see how Trammell gets in. A decent SS but not HOF material. Mattingly didn't have the career numbers because he didn't play that long. But Garvey should get in before Mattingly.

Rice is a no brainer and should have gotten in a long time ago. One of the most feared hitters ever.

Relievers who pitched most of their careers in the 70's and 80's and have good stats should get in. Thus Gossage, Smith, Sutter, etc should get in.

Gooden, man what a wasted talent. 20 years ago in 85 he had one of the most dominant years ever for a pitcher. Right up there with the Gibson of 68 and Guidry of 78.

ChiSoxRowand
11-30-2005, 06:06 PM
I'd say the most deserving is Blyleven - 5th all- time in Ks, 9th in shutouts and 25th in wins. 10 times in the top 10 ERA, 15 times top 10 in Ks, 13 in the top 5. 11 times top 10 in WHIP, 16 times top 10 K/BB ratio - I'm sure the argument has been made many times, but if this guy played for certain other teams, he would've been in 1st ballot at 95+ percent.

Don't forget his 242 complete games.

Whitesox029
11-30-2005, 06:17 PM
Joe Jackson and Pete Rose

Chips
11-30-2005, 08:54 PM
If I had a ballot, I might send it back blank. I'm sure some voters will do just that. There are years, and this could be one of them, that no one is elected.

Gossage and Sutter will get votes. Belle and Dawson will get some.

I have higher standards.

I may have higher standards. I would put nobody from that last in.

My Hall of Fame would have very few players in it. Nobody from that list would be considered the upper echelon of baseball players.

Tragg
11-30-2005, 09:23 PM
I'd put Bruce Sutter in because for a few years he was the best reliever I've ever seen. If players can get in for longevity without greatness, I'll vote one for a short period of greatness, without longevity.

I thought Jack Morris was one of the top few pitchers in the AL for a number of years - he'd be okay; Maybe Smith or Blyleven.

jdm2662
11-30-2005, 10:00 PM
Blyleven should've gotten in a long time ago. I wouldn't have a problem with Jim Rice or Jack Morris. I doubt Morris gets in because his career ERA ended up getting pretty high. However, he was the true ace, and his game seven of the 91 series will always come to mind. Sutter and the Goose should get consideration, but I doubt they will get voted in.

MRKARNO
11-30-2005, 10:56 PM
Only Bert Blyleven is worthy of selection.

soxfanreggie
12-01-2005, 12:57 AM
My vote would be for Bly...I'd also give Rice some consideration. Seeing some people who are in the Hall, you have to wonder the standards. I mean, you have some teams retiring numbers of players...were they really that great or were they just good and fan favorites. I mean, it comes down to what you want to recognize...

The Hall of Fame...I'm sure there are guys that each person thinks should be in and guys that each person thinks should be out.

My problem is that you have two of the best baseball players not in the Hall of Fame...Pete Rose and Joe Jackson...nobody said the Hall of Fame was for "nice/good guys." If you want a hall of fame for the good guys, make one, but don't call it the baseball hall of fame and not put in the best players. Also, how many alcoholics, drug abusers, steroid users, wife beaters, etc. are in the hall of fame. If you're going to keep someone out for gambling, you should keep others out for other reasons. I know Pete betting on baseball was wrong, but I also don't believe he would have done something to hinder his team winning.

MUsoxfan
12-01-2005, 01:05 AM
Only Bert Blyleven is worthy of selection.

Blyleven is very Santo-ish with his desire to get in

getonbckthr
12-01-2005, 02:44 AM
The list:
Rick Aguilera, Albert Belle, Bert Blyleven, Will Clark, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Gary DiSarcina, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Steve Garvey, Dwight Gooden, Rich Gossage, Ozzie Guillen, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Tommy John, Doug Jones, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Hal Morris, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland.


Looking through this list, we may actually see NO ONE get in this year (I assume that's possible, right?)

The voters are still shying away from relievers, though I disagree.
I bolded my picks.

TheVulture
12-01-2005, 02:56 AM
Pete Rose and Joe Jackson...nobody said the Hall of Fame was for "nice/good guys." If you want a hall of fame for the good guys, make one, but don't call it the baseball hall of fame and not put in the best players.

Actually...

3. Eligible Candidates Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:
E. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

5. Voting Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

IowaSox1971
12-01-2005, 03:04 AM
I may have higher standards. I would put nobody from that last in.

My Hall of Fame would have very few players in it. Nobody from that list would be considered the upper echelon of baseball players.

The problem is, the Hall of Fame already has some undeserving players in it, such as Rabbit Maranville, Fred Lindstrom and George "Highpockets" Kelly. So, why should Trammell, who hit .300 or better six times in his career during a time when few shortstops other than Ripken hit for power or average, be kept out of the Hall of Fame?

In 1987, Trammell hit .343 with 28 homers and led his team to a division title. He also was an excellent defensive player. No, he was not as good of a fielder as Ozzie Smith, but I'm sure that at least some general managers at that time would have preferred to have Trammell on their team instead of Ozzie Smith. Yet, Smith is a first-ballot Hall of Famer and Trammell is unlikely to get in.

Likewise, Dawson and Rice were premier power hitters in their respective leagues when they played. Blyleven won 287 games, even though he spent much of his career pitching for mediocre Cleveland and Minnesota teams. Jack Morris might have been the most consistent starter of the 1980s, and his Game 7 masterpiece in the 1991 World Series should be enough to put him into the Hall.

Take a close look at some of the guys who are in the Hall right now, before saying some of these candidates do not deserve to get in. Why is Kirby Puckett in the Hall of Fame while Jim Rice and Andre Dawson are not? I believe Puckett deserves to be in, but he was no more dominant than Rice or Dawson in their respective eras.

Having "higher standards" does not necessarily mean fairness. If some guys are already in without meeting the absolute elite standards, such as Maranville, Lindstrom, Kelly, etc., why should others who are even better than these guys be left out?

doublem23
12-01-2005, 03:15 AM
My problem is that you have two of the best baseball players not in the Hall of Fame...Pete Rose and Joe Jackson...nobody said the Hall of Fame was for "nice/good guys." If you want a hall of fame for the good guys, make one, but don't call it the baseball hall of fame and not put in the best players.

Unlike the Pro Football Hall of Fame, the Baseball Hall of Fame explicity states in its rules that if a voter does not want to vote in someone based on off-field incidents and character, that is perfectly acceptable.

Pete Rose should never be allowed in the city limits of Cooperstown as far as I'm concerned.

mccombe_35
12-01-2005, 07:46 AM
Only Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Stan Musial, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth, and Ted Williams have had as high a batting average and home run combination as Rice.


Bonds, Thomas, Manny, ARod, Piazza, L Walker left off the list because they are still active?

Albert Belle
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Jim Rice

get my votes.

bobowhite
12-01-2005, 07:58 AM
Jack Morris might have been the most consistent starter of the 1980s, and his Game 7 masterpiece in the 1991 World Series should be enough to put him into the Hall.


Jack Morris had the most wins during the decade of the 80s. Very few pitchers who did that for any decade are not in the HOF.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-17-2005, 02:57 AM
My Ballot:

Bert Blyleven, Goose Gossage, Pete Rose, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell.

Predictions:

1 and done:

Rick Aguilera, Gary DiSarcina, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Dwight Gooden, Ozzie Guillen, Gregg Jeffries, Doug Jones, Hal Morris, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland.

First year eligible players who will never make it via the BBWAA ballot - the three remaining players - Albert Belle, Will Clark & Orel Hershiser. Hershiser will get the most votes among first timers. No class of 2006 player will be voted in by the BBWAA.

Of the 15 holdovers from 2005:

Players who will never make it via the BBWAA: Dave Concepcion (though if Tony Perez can make it, anyone can), Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Wille McGee (I predict he drops off the ballot this year, the only holdover to do so), Jack Morris, Dale Murphy and "The Cobra" Dave Parker.

Players who will make it, just not in 2006 - Bert Blyleven, Andre Dawson, Rich Gossage, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell.

Players who will be elected in 2006 - Jim Rice and Bruce Sutter.

TDog
12-17-2005, 03:33 AM
... Having "higher standards" does not necessarily mean fairness. If some guys are already in without meeting the absolute elite standards, such as Maranville, Lindstrom, Kelly, etc., why should others who are even better than these guys be left out?

Some players got in because they were buds with the people making the selections. They shouldn't be there, but it doesn't mean their presence lets in everyone with better statistics. Maybe you could have a special wing for the players who belong. Or maybe you could maintain higher standards in the future.

My guess is no one gets in from this ballot.

gowhitesox
12-17-2005, 07:47 AM
Bonds, Thomas, Manny, ARod, Piazza, L Walker left off the list because they are still active?
.


A player has to be retired 5 years before he can be considered. Once the Big Hurt is retired 5 years, he should walk right in the Hall of Fame.

My picks:

Rich "Goose" Gossage
Jim Rice
Ozzie Smith
Alan Tramell (maybe)

From the Negro Leagues players:
Minnie Minoso

hose
12-17-2005, 08:44 AM
The list:
Rick Aguilera, Albert Belle, Bert Blyleven, Will Clark, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Gary DiSarcina, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Steve Garvey, Dwight Gooden, Rich Gossage, Ozzie Guillen, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Tommy John, Doug Jones, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Hal Morris, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland.


Looking through this list, we may actually see NO ONE get in this year (I assume that's possible, right?)

The voters are still shying away from relievers, though I disagree.


The only one from the list I would consider voting for at this time would be Bert Blyleven and then I would really have to mull that over.

Wsoxmike59
12-17-2005, 07:28 PM
My votes would go for:

Bert Blyleven 287 Career Wins
Tommy John 288 Wins
Jim Rice

I also think in due time I'd give the following guys consideration:

1) Bill Buckner 2715 Hits
2) Al Oliver 2743 Hits
3) Harold Baines 2866 Hits
4) Vada Pinson 2757 Hits
5) Steve Garvey 2599 Hits
6) Dave Parker 2712 Hits
7) Lee Smith 478 Saves
8) Goose Gossage 310 Saves
9) Jim Kaat 283 Wins
10) Billy Pierce 211 Wins

TheVulture
12-19-2005, 10:51 AM
My votes would go for:

Bert Blyleven 287 Career Wins
Tommy John 288 Wins
Jim Rice

I also think in due time I'd give the following guys consideration:

1) Bill Buckner 2715 Hits
2) Al Oliver 2743 Hits
3) Harold Baines 2866 Hits
4) Vada Pinson 2757 Hits
5) Steve Garvey 2599 Hits
6) Dave Parker 2712 Hits
7) Lee Smith 478 Saves
8) Goose Gossage 310 Saves
9) Jim Kaat 283 Wins
10) Billy Pierce 211 Wins

Of that list of guys, Buckner's your #1 choice? I'd put in Parker, Baines, Oliver, Tony Oliva, Lee Smith, Goose, Kaat way way waaaaay before Buckner ... Hell, I'd put Chili Davis in ahead of Buckner. I'd put Santo in way before Buckner, and I'm definitely not a Santo for Hall supporter. The only thing I can think is you've must've grown up a Cubs fan in the early 80s.

Mickster
12-19-2005, 12:42 PM
Probably the only reason that I would not vote for Bert Blyleven is the fact that he has been campaining for it even more so than Ron Santo in the last couple of years........

DenverSock
12-19-2005, 12:47 PM
I think Goose, Tommy John, and Andre Dawson deserve it. Goose probably won't make it.

cubhater
12-20-2005, 12:01 AM
I'd go with Blyleven, Dawson, Gossage, Rice, and Sutter.

soxinem1
12-21-2005, 12:40 PM
Every year this who deserves/ who does not discussion goes on. The difficulty in choosing HOF inductees is tough. It is really a fine line between guys who were good players, even perennial All-Stars and those who are among the best ever to play.

You have to consider the era, longetivity, character (hopefully) style of play, etc. Do Baines and Palmeiro go in? Dale Murphy, Andre Dawson, Don Mattingly, Jim Rice? Some tough choices. Baines, for example, led the league in a major offensive category one time, slugging percentage in 1984. Never hit 30 homers, never scored 90 runs, and as much as of a Baines fan I am, I'd have to say he was not in the top ten OF at anytime he played. He was a good DH, but Baines never put up any astounding numbers. Mattingly, Murphy, and Dawson didn't do it long enough. Rice is debateable, especially since Orlando Cepeda is in the HOF.

You would think the fairest way of evaluating HOF candidates is how you ranked them versus their peers while they played. For example, Graig Nettles was an excellent 3B, so was Buddy Bell. But better than Brooks Robinson? Probably not. Plus, Nettles' sub-.250 career BA does not help.

But if you compared Blyleven to any of his peers in the 70's and 80's he ranks pretty high. He had a very similar career to Fergie Jenkins in wins, ERA, K's, innings, and pitching for a lot of crummy teams. Jim Palmer didn't even come close to 300 and was not a big KO guy, but he was very tough to score off of. I say Blyleven goes in. John and Kaat are tough calls, however.

But if you do use that guideline you also risk an 'affirmative action' kind of problem, though it is not a black and white issue. Having to let someone in to represent his era when the position may not be that strong will water down the HOF, without question.

One fact we have to acknowledge is that comparing eras is not fair. You cannot measure a career win total to Cy Young or even K's to Nolan Ryan. Pedro Martinez will not come close to Ryan's record for career K's, but he definitely ranks among the best KO pitchers in this era.

Some examples:

Most SS today easilly surpass SS offensively from the 70's and most of the 80's. Though Cal Rikpen's numbers pale to A-Rod and others, he was the best offensive SS in his era. But Alan Trammell was a pretty good one in his own right, does he deserve it? How about Lou Whitaker at 2B?

Closers save more games today than 20 years ago, but pitch fewer innings. Goose Gossage pitched three innings for saves on a regular basis. Today, their arms would die out within a couple years. Goose was feared, was a winner, and had an impressive resume that gave respect to the reliever. I say he goes in.

And I really doubt that after Maddux, Clemens, and possibly Randy Johnson and Tom Glavine we may not see a 300 game winner again. And we will definitely not see anyone with 240 complete games in their careers anymore. Guys who throw 190+ innings are now regarded as workhorses.

Does this mean that we let in guys that were aces for 7-9 years who only won 170-220 games? Sure, Dizzy Dean, Sandy Koufax, and Don Drysdale are in, and made it with ease to boot. If the period of superiority and dominance at the position is long enough I'd have to say yes.

I always thought that players who put bodies in the seats were a great way to gauge HOF worthiness. Check the Hall members, they are loaded with guys people came to see play. Ryan, Seaver, Mantle, Dimaggio, Morgan, etc. drew fans. So did/does Clemens and Pedro. Did Jack Morris? Hardly. He had some excellent moments but I view him as a workhorse starter, not a HOF'er.

We just have to be objective with such things and not use favoritism or the teams they played for as a barometer.

Wsoxmike59
12-21-2005, 08:26 PM
Of that list of guys, Buckner's your #1 choice? I'd put in Parker, Baines, Oliver, Tony Oliva, Lee Smith, Goose, Kaat way way waaaaay before Buckner ... Hell, I'd put Chili Davis in ahead of Buckner. I'd put Santo in way before Buckner, and I'm definitely not a Santo for Hall supporter. The only thing I can think is you've must've grown up a Cubs fan in the early 80s.

Vulture, can you read??? Blyleven was my number 1 choice RIGHT AT THE TOP OF THE FREAKING POST along with Tommy John # 2 and Jim Rice # 3. And those were the only three I'd vote for if I were voting for the HOF.

The other guys I listed in no particular order of importance, but their career statistics merit "consideration" as I so clearly stated.

GregoryEtc
12-23-2005, 02:20 PM
The list:
Rick Aguilera, Albert Belle, Bert Blyleven, Will Clark, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Gary DiSarcina, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Steve Garvey, Dwight Gooden, Rich Gossage, Ozzie Guillen, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Tommy John, Doug Jones, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Hal Morris, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland.

If Ryne Sandberg is a hall of famer, ALL OF THESE GUYS are all of famers.

(ok.. maybe not all.. but most of them.)

Fenway
12-27-2005, 11:04 PM
A retired Boston sportscaster makes his case for Jack Morris, Jim Rice, Goose Gossage, Andre Dawson, and Bruce Sutter

http://dotnews.com/booth.html

PaulDrake
12-28-2005, 11:00 AM
Vulture, can you read??? Blyleven was my number 1 choice RIGHT AT THE TOP OF THE FREAKING POST along with Tommy John # 2 and Jim Rice # 3. And those were the only three I'd vote for if I were voting for the HOF.

The other guys I listed in no particular order of importance, but their career statistics merit "consideration" as I so clearly stated. Too bad you got grief for that list because it's a good one.

socko82
12-28-2005, 11:58 AM
Jim Rice's career numbers: .298 Avg., 2,452 H, 382 HR, 1,451 RBI, 1 MVP, 1 World Series appearance (he did not play in '75), no wins

Dave Parker's career numbers: .290 Avg., 2,712 H, 339 HR, 1,493 RBI, 154 SB, 3 Gold Gloves, 1 MVP, 3 World Series, 2 wins

Both were jerks with the media. Their numbers are extremely close and I'd say Parker was superior defensively. Personally, I don't think either one is a HOF'er, I just find it interesting (but not surprising) the guy who played in Boston is getting the big push and stands a good chance of getting in this year and the guy who played in the sticks (Pitt/Cinc/Oak) is not going to get a sniff.

VenturaSoxFan23
12-31-2005, 12:14 PM
The list:
Rick Aguilera, Albert Belle, Bert Blyleven, Will Clark, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Gary DiSarcina, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Steve Garvey, Dwight Gooden, Rich Gossage, Ozzie Guillen, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Tommy John, Doug Jones, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Hal Morris, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland.

I think Andre Dawson should get in. The man was a triple-threat at his peak. He can kill you with his home runs, was quite a base-stealer and could gun you down with his arm.

I think this is the year of "The Hawk". I don't see anybody else getting in. Just my opinion.

Chitown Hitmen
12-31-2005, 12:35 PM
I know Ozzie porbably won't get in. Umm I hope Gossage gets in though.

WSox597
12-31-2005, 12:52 PM
Jim Rice, Dave Parker, if one gets in the other should.

Someone mentioned Harold Baines, I can't argue with that. His stats are similar to others already in the HOF. (Billy Williams, Tony Perez, Kaline)

Billy Williams whined his way in, like Santo and Blyleven are trying to do.

Dale Murphy and Steve Garvey deserve consideration as well.

soxfanreggie
01-02-2006, 06:38 PM
Ozzie will be in as a player/manager, if he manages for a decade or more I'm guessing. A few WS titles as a manger and more Central Division titles should get him in.

Stroker Ace
01-03-2006, 06:35 PM
The only guy on that list I see making it in this year is Mattingly.