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View Full Version : Which one free agent would you want, and why?


Frater Perdurabo
11-28-2005, 02:42 PM
If you were Kenny Williams and had approximately $14 million remaining to sign a premier free agent, which free agent would you most want to sign, and why? For purposes of this poll, you can only choose one premier free agent. Then, if you signed that player, where would you play him in the field and in the lineup? If you didn't spend the full $14 million, how would you invest the rest into the team?

Konerko?

Giles?

Furcal?

Damon?

Other? (please list)

Frater Perdurabo
11-28-2005, 02:50 PM
With all apologies to Konerko, I voted for Giles. I'd bat him third and start him in CF. I'd spend the remaining money on an incentive-based deal for Frank. I'd accept the marginally decreased range in CF (given the small gaps at the Cell) knowing that my lineup would have incredible speed at the top, a fantastic #2, high OBP 3-5, great SLG 4-6, and some pop 7-9:

Pods - Iguchi - Giles - Frank - Thome - Dye - AJ - Crede - Uribe

If Frank could not play, I'd start Anderson in CF, move Giles to LF and have Pods DH. The lineup would be shorter on OPS, but still productive and balanced and better defensively:

Pods - Iguchi - Giles - Thome - Dye - AJ - Crede - Uribe - Anderson

Whitesox4ever
11-28-2005, 02:52 PM
Billy Wagner

Palehose13
11-28-2005, 03:00 PM
Thome-Konerko would be dangerous. However, I am not comfortable starting Anderson in CF on opening day...but I don't want to see Giles out there either.

Baby Fisk
11-28-2005, 03:01 PM
Quite simply, Paul Konerko. :cool:

miker
11-28-2005, 03:01 PM
Paul Konerko, for numerous reasons, most of them sentimental and intangible.

Of course, now that we have an opening in center, and if we can't sign PK, and especially if we didn't have to overpay, what about Damon?

(As I prepare for the onslaught of vitriol that only WSI members can give out...)

Palehose13
11-28-2005, 03:04 PM
Paul Konerko, for numerous reasons, most of them sentimental and intangible.

Of course, now that we have an opening in center, and if we can't sign PK, and especially if we didn't have to overpay, what about Damon?

(As I prepare for the onslaught of vitriol that only WSI members can give out...)

I'm for it. I think he'd be great in the 2-hole allowing Iguchi to move down in the order and be more comfortable when he hits.

nccwsfan
11-28-2005, 03:05 PM
Paul Konerko. He's a right handed power hitter that would complement Jim Thome (which is currently our biggest need), he's 29 and in the prime years of his career, he's familiar with the organization, and he's a fan favorite.

fquaye149
11-28-2005, 03:07 PM
I'm for it. I think he'd be great in the 2-hole allowing Iguchi to move down in the order and be more comfortable when he hits.

Damon's defense and baserunning make me physically sick to my stomach.

However, if he can hit .350 or OBP .400+ he would be valuable at the dish.

For the 12+ a year he wants though, we'd be much better off with someone who can slug behind Thome or hit ahead of him, like Giles or Konerko.

They're the only two I want out of the four and it's a tossup for me. I'll vote Paulie because he's already proven he can play here and be a good teammate.

fquaye149
11-28-2005, 03:08 PM
By the way who on earth voted for Furcal? Yes he's a good hitter, baserunner and defensive shortstop, but how on earth is he enough of an upgrade over Juan to justify the 8 million-ish we'd have to spend?

pythons007
11-28-2005, 03:09 PM
Paul Konerko for sure. Thome Konerko and Dye in the middle of th lineup would give opposing pitchers cold sweats the night before their day to pitch!:cool:

Randar68
11-28-2005, 03:10 PM
Voted for Giles and here is why:

He allows you a TON of flexibility. Granted, we have a ton of OF prospects, but Giles will put up an OPS over 1.000 in USCF, offers a LH'd bat, and can play every OF position.

Giles and Thome means you could even move Dye to 1B in that very controversial proposal, DH'ing Thome.

Allows you flexibility with Frank as well.

You would have:

Pods - Iguchi - Giles - Thome - Dye - AJ - Crede - Uribe - Anderson

with the added ability to fit Frank in the heart of the order at DH with Anderson getting benched or resting any of Thome/Dye/Giles without losing much in the order.

If I have 14 million, signing Giles or Furcal gives me more money to work with elsewhere as opposed to Konerko, who ties up almost all that 14 million, and Giles will sign the shortest term contract of the 3...

Can you imagine going Pods-Iguchi-Giles-Frank-Thome-Dye as the top 2/3rds of the order???? L-R-L-R-L-R...

Palehose13
11-28-2005, 03:14 PM
Damon's defense and baserunning make me physically sick to my stomach.

However, if he can hit .350 or OBP .400+ he would be valuable at the dish.

For the 12+ a year he wants though, we'd be much better off with someone who can slug behind Thome or hit ahead of him, like Giles or Konerko.

They're the only two I want out of the four and it's a tossup for me. I'll vote Paulie because he's already proven he can play here and be a good teammate.

I can't say anything about his defense, but I would imagine that it can't be worse than Giles in CF. I'm looking at his offensive numbers. In regards to his base running, we had some awful baserunning blunders in the past and they seemed to decrease last year. Some of that is because CLee is gone, but I'd like to think that maybe the caoching staff (Raines) could work on Damon in that aspect.

That all being said, Konerko is my first choice. If it is between konerko and Damon, I want Konerko. However, if the Sox can get Damon at a decent price (if Konerko signs elsewhere or even if he does sign here) I wouldn't be mad about it.

doublem23
11-28-2005, 03:14 PM
Paul Konerko.

Right now, 1B is the weak spot on this team. I do believe you can hide Anderson's bat in the order right now while he learns to hit MLB-level pitching, and if he's half as good as touted, his defense will be comparable to Rowand's. Jim Thome can no longer be an everyday first baseman IMO. He can spell someone every now and then, but asking him to go out and play in the field 130 times a year is determental to the offense we expect from him.

Put 2 40-homer guys in the middle of the line-up and watch this team win 100 games next year.

MarySwiss
11-28-2005, 03:18 PM
Great timing on this poll. Sentiment has a lot to do with my vote, and so does selfishness. I voted for Paulie for three reasons:

1. He's my favorite player and has been for years.
2. I've just been watching the parade and rally. Again. When it came to the part where Paulie gave Jerry the Game 4 ball and made the speech about "second team no more" and "doing it one more time next year," I got the wobbly chin. Again.
3. I've still got this big dumb grin on my face. I've had it since Game 4, and I want to keep it there for at least another year. In my book, re-signing Paulie greatly enhances the likelihood of that happening.

Flight #24
11-28-2005, 03:23 PM
Tough call because I'm such a huge Frank fan and because if healthy, he's still a top 10 hitter in baseball, IMO.

From a purely baseball perspective, it would depend on whether or not KW & OG think Dye can handle 1B. If so, and if you're feeling good about Frank's return, you can prioritize Giles over Konerko. 1B gets split 1/3 Thome, 2/3 Dye. DH goes 50% Thome, 50% Frank. Giles plays CF & Dye RF. The nice thing here is that you basically can put up a ridiculous lineup as posted by Randar. The downside is if Frank or Thome get hurt, you're significantly limited in terms of power since while Giles is a better avg/OBP guy, he's nowhere near the power guy that Paulie is.

However, I think this team should weight PR heavily as they're locked in a battle with the Cubs for the casual fan. Keeping Paulie is a key to that, IMO. So I think that's got to be their #1 plan. Maintaining their ability to go to a Giles or other alternative is IMO why they're pushing Paulie to make a decision.

santo=dorf
11-28-2005, 03:34 PM
Billy Wagner

Sold to the Mets for $43 million.

as usual (well most of the time) Randar nailed it on the head, but I think it's more of a pipedream for Giles. Signing Giles allows us to sign Konerko or Frank too.

Frater Perdurabo
11-28-2005, 03:35 PM
Can you imagine going Pods-Iguchi-Giles-Frank-Thome-Dye as the top 2/3rds of the order???? L-R-L-R-L-R...

:o: Mercy! That's why I voted for Giles as well. The L-R pattern would continue with AJ at 7 and Crede at 8. The only back-to-back of any kind would be at 8-9 (Crede and Uribe), or they could just sign switch-hitter Furcal to bat ninth!!!!

Flight #24
11-28-2005, 03:43 PM
Can you imagine going Pods-Iguchi-Giles-Frank-Thome-Dye as the top 2/3rds of the order???? L-R-L-R-L-R...


Only problem is that a lineup of say Pods-Iguchi-Giles-Frank-Dye-AJ-Crede-Anderson-Uribe is decidedly less imposing, and if Frank goes down you're basically screwed and lacking any semblance of a power guy. Counting on ABs from Frank and Thome @ 1B is a significant risk to both players.

But if healthy, that's a better lineup than we've seen on the South Side in wuite a while. And if you like Ortiz-Ramirez, you ain't seen nuthing until you've seen a healthy Frank-Thome. That would define dominance.

Palehose13
11-28-2005, 03:48 PM
Only problem is that a lineup of say Pods-Iguchi-Giles-Frank-Dye-AJ-Crede-Anderson-Uribe is decidedly less imposing, and if Frank goes down you're basically screwed and lacking any semblance of a power guy. Counting on ABs from Frank and Thome @ 1B is a significant risk to both players.

But if healthy, that's a better lineup than we've seen on the South Side in wuite a while. And if you like Ortiz-Ramirez, you ain't seen nuthing until you've seen a healthy Frank-Thome. That would define dominance.

Giles-Frank-Thome scare the hell out of me...in regards to health. I'll take a chance on one. Hell, maybe even two if the price is rgith, but all three? Anyone want to play Russian Roulette? Somewhere down the line you may end up with a line up of:
Pods-Iguchi-Dye-Crede-AJ-Gload-Timo-Anderson-Uribe
*shudder*

Randar68
11-28-2005, 03:52 PM
Only problem is that a lineup of say Pods-Iguchi-Giles-Frank-Dye-AJ-Crede-Anderson-Uribe is decidedly less imposing, and if Frank goes down you're basically screwed and lacking any semblance of a power guy. Counting on ABs from Frank and Thome @ 1B is a significant risk to both players.

I think that is your less-frequent line-up only on days Thome gets a rest, so it's really only going to happen 1-2 times per week in this scenario, right?

Randar68
11-28-2005, 03:53 PM
Giles-Frank-Thome scare the hell out of me...in regards to health. I'll take a chance on one. Hell, maybe even two if the price is rgith, but all three? Anyone want to play Russian Roulette? Somewhere down the line you may end up with a line up of:
Pods-Iguchi-Dye-Crede-AJ-Gload-Timo-Anderson-Uribe
*shudder*

When has Giles been an injury risk. What did I miss? Hell, other than 2005, when has Thome ever been a health risk?

Talk about overstating a position...

Flight #24
11-28-2005, 03:59 PM
I think that is your less-frequent line-up only on days Thome gets a rest, so it's really only going to happen 1-2 times per week in this scenario, right?

Nope, I'm talking about the risk of Thome going down for a stretch if playing 1B on a semi regular basis (or fulltime basis). Also the risk of relaying on Frank to put up 400ABs without getting hurt again. The proposal involves both of those risks, which are IMO significant if Thome's playing the field.

While the upside is awe-inspiring, the downside of Pods-Iguchi-Giles-Dye-AJ-Crede-Gload-Anderson-Uribe is pretty fear-inspiring.

Palehose13
11-28-2005, 04:00 PM
When has Giles been an injury risk. What did I miss? Hell, other than 2005, when has Thome ever been a health risk?

Talk about overstating a position...

I had him in fantasy baseball in 2003 and he only played 29 games. This was my only impression of him, and it was a bad one. My bad. I did what others have done with Thome. I guess 3 guys that are 35 scare the hell out of me cause players tend to break down when they get older (unless of course they are using HGH).

However, I haven't heard much in regards to Giles' ability to play CF. I don't know much about him, but I picture something akin to Carl Everett. Can anyone give me an idea of how Giles would be in CF?

One last thing, I was under the impression that Giles didn't want to come here.

Frater Perdurabo
11-28-2005, 04:05 PM
While the upside is awe-inspiring, the downside of Pods-Iguchi-Giles-Dye-AJ-Crede-Gload-Anderson-Uribe is pretty fear-inspiring.

I think if that happened, Carl Everett would be back in pinstripes within 24 hours. Trading for Griffey also would be an option in that worst-case scenario. Heck, unless he's dealt to another team, Todd Helton could be a midseason acquisition. Remember, the Sox will have pitching depth that will both keep them in contention and can be used to acquire a thumper at midseason. Plus, I fully expect Crede and Uribe to build on their good 2005 postseason play. Even your doomsday scenario isn't the end of the world.

Flight #24
11-28-2005, 04:12 PM
I think if that happened, Carl Everett would be back in pinstripes within 24 hours. Trading for Griffey also would be an option in that worst-case scenario. Heck, unless he's dealt to another team, Todd Helton could be a midseason acquisition. Remember, the Sox will have pitching depth that will both keep them in contention and can be used to acquire a thumper at midseason. Plus, I fully expect Crede and Uribe to build on their good 2005 postseason play. Even your doomsday scenario isn't the end of the world.

It's just not as easy to make that kind of move in-season, plus without an unlimited payroll, it's tough to take on impact players. I just think it's a degree of risk that may just be a shade beyond reasonable.

Frater Perdurabo
11-28-2005, 04:12 PM
However, I haven't heard much in regards to Giles' ability to play CF. I don't know much about him, but I picture something akin to Carl Everett. Can anyone give me an idea of how Giles would be in CF?

One last thing, I was under the impression that Giles didn't want to come here.

I'd defer to Randar on this one, but from what I understand Giles is good enough to play any OF position in most stadiums, but clearly is not good enough to be a quality CF in cavernous stadiums like Petco, Coors or Comerica. (Then again, neither was Rowand.) I understand Giles has a good arm and with the small gaps at the Cell he could do a good enough job not to hurt the Sox in a way that would offset what his bat would add. IIRC, he should be much better than Everett in the field.

As for your last point, I had heard the same rumours. However, methinks a chance to play for the defending champs is a lot more attractive than playing for a franchise that had not even been to the Fall Classic in your lifetime, as the Sox were in 2003-04 (remember that the Padres had just been in the 2000 Series, and Giles is a West Coast guy). If Giles is serious about getting a ring, his best bet would be to sign with the defending champs. OTOH, if he were to reject a fair offer from KW, then I wouldn't want him anyway.

Palehose13
11-28-2005, 04:21 PM
I'd defer to Randar on this one, but from what I understand Giles is good enough to play any OF position in most stadiums, but clearly is not good enough to be a quality CF in cavernous stadiums like Petco, Coors or Comerica. (Then again, neither was Rowand.) I understand Giles has a good arm and with the small gaps at the Cell he could do a good enough job not to hurt the Sox in a way that would offset what his bat would add. IIRC, he should be much better than Everett in the field.

As for your last point, I had heard the same rumours. However, methinks a chance to play for the defending champs is a lot more attractive than playing for a franchise that had not even been to the Fall Classic in your lifetime, as the Sox were in 2003-04 (remember that the Padres had just been in the 2000 Series, and Giles is a West Coast guy). If Giles is serious about getting a ring, his best bet would be to sign with the defending champs. OTOH, if he were to reject a fair offer from KW, then I wouldn't want him anyway.

Well, first I trust KW. I also trust quite a few posters here (yourself and randar included). If you guys and KW like Giles/Thomas, then I wouldn't complain about it. Besides, some of you actually listened to me in regards to Podsednik when that trade happened, so I gotta return the favor. :wink:

Deuce
11-28-2005, 04:29 PM
I want Giles. He's just as good as Konerko, if not better, and is much cheaper to acquire. However, given Thome's recent back pain, I need Konerko in case Thome cannot do a whole season on first. So, I'll take Konerko.

Note: I just read Randar's post and I think he is dead on. If we can sign Giles, we can keep Frank and rule with a mighty bat. And since I don't think moving Dye to first is that much of a stretch, I think the lineup is sound.

Deuce

mjharrison72
11-28-2005, 04:29 PM
All sentiment aside, I voted for Giles, for the simple reason that I believe he is underrated and Konerko is slightly overrated (never thought I would be saying that!).

The point I want to make here is I would rather get Giles on a steal and have him perform slightly under expectations than overpay to keep Konerko and have him underperform.

Ol' No. 2
11-28-2005, 04:37 PM
Close call between Giles and Konerko. I'd go with Konerko. I liked the idea of signing Giles as a OF/DH, but the main attraction to signing Giles now is that it give you the potential of having Giles, Thome and Thomas all in the same lineup, which would be fearsome, indeed, IF all were healthy. That's a pretty big IF, though. I wouldn't call Giles and Thome injury-prone, but all three of those guys are 35+, so the risk is a lot higher, and in Thomas' case, the odds are probably against you. With Thome playing 1B every day, his risk of back problems goes up, too. (Any scenario that winds up with Dye moving to 1B is a non-starter.) Instead of one big bat, it's quite possible they end up with only one. Big downside and high probability are a bad combination. This is one where I'd play the safe bet. Sign PK and let Thome DH. With the Sox pitching, I think that's going to be plenty of offense.

mjharrison72
11-28-2005, 04:37 PM
I'd defer to Randar on this one, but from what I understand Giles is good enough to play any OF position in most stadiums, but clearly is not good enough to be a quality CF in cavernous stadiums like Petco, Coors or Comerica. (Then again, neither was Rowand.) I understand Giles has a good arm and with the small gaps at the Cell he could do a good enough job not to hurt the Sox in a way that would offset what his bat would add. IIRC, he should be much better than Everett in the field.

At any rate, if we signed Giles to play an OF spot, wouldn't we slide Podsednik into center and play Giles in left? Giles has played more games in left (648) than in center (300) or right (405).

Incidentally, he also boasts a tasty .413 career OBP. Konerko? A less-tasty .349 career OBP.

I want Mags back
11-28-2005, 04:37 PM
I am so surprised by the outcome of this poll

Randar68
11-28-2005, 04:41 PM
At any rate, if we signed Giles to play an OF spot, wouldn't we slide Podsednik into center and play Giles in left? Giles has played more games in left (648) than in center (300) or right (405).

Incidentally, he also boasts a tasty .413 career OBP. Konerko? A less-tasty .349 career OBP.

Pods is less of a CF'er than my grandmother. Him in CF is a stop-gap measure reserved for massive injury woes.

Giles is an adequate CF'er, much like Rowand was, probably a hair less range than Rowand.

Randar68
11-28-2005, 04:47 PM
The point I want to make here is I would rather get Giles on a steal and have him perform slightly under expectations than overpay to keep Konerko and have him underperform.

We all really liked what Konerko provided, but he could easily revert to 2003 or first-half 2004. He's been a streaky player in halves of seasons, and only 100 RBI with 40+ HR's? Doesn't say much for what he was doing in his non-HR AB's, nevermind OBP...

I think the injury risk to Giles or Thome isn't as big a deal when considering paying them considerably less than Konerko, who could become an albatross type of contract should 2005 have been an abnormal year for him.

BTW, Giles' CAREER OPS is almost 50 points higher than Konerko's BEST year...

MarySwiss
11-28-2005, 05:09 PM
We all really liked what Konerko provided, but he could easily revert to 2003 or first-half 2004. He's been a streaky player in halves of seasons, and only 100 RBI with 40+ HR's? Doesn't say much for what he was doing in his non-HR AB's, nevermind OBP...

I think the injury risk to Giles or Thome isn't as big a deal when considering paying them considerably less than Konerko, who could become an albatross type of contract should 2005 have been an abnormal year for him.

BTW, Giles' CAREER OPS is almost 50 points higher than Konerko's BEST year...

Stats are always nice, Randar. Here're a couple more. Giles's .299 career BA vs. Konerko's .279 career BA. And Giles's 246 career home runs vs. Paulie's 210.

Of course, there IS that pesky age difference: Konerko's 29 to Giles's 34. But that doesn't guarantee that Paulie's stats will rise. Or Giles's will decline. Which I guess means we shouldn't consider the fact that Paulie has hit 41 and 40 home runs the past two seasons vs. Giles's 15 and 23. But let's be fair: Giles did hit HRs in the high 30s four years in a row. From 1999-2002. :wink:

ma-gaga
11-28-2005, 05:10 PM
Jacque Jones... Jacque Jones... Jacque Jones... :D: C'mon KW, it's time to sign an old enemy.

:gulp:

fquaye149
11-28-2005, 05:14 PM
Pods is less of a CF'er than my grandmother. Him in CF is a stop-gap measure reserved for massive injury woes.

Giles is an adequate CF'er, much like Rowand was, probably a hair less range than Rowand.

I take it your grandmother plays an acceptable Major League caliber centerfield?

Podsednik was not a world beater in Milwaukee, but fielded his position acceptably. I don't want him in center for us, but he's hardly defective there

fquaye149
11-28-2005, 05:16 PM
Stats are always nice, Randar. Here're a couple more. Giles's .299 career BA vs. Konerko's .279 career BA. And Giles's 246 career home runs vs. Paulie's 210.

Of course, there IS that pesky age difference: Konerko's 29 to Giles's 34. But that doesn't guarantee that Paulie's stats will rise. Or Giles's will decline. Which I guess means we shouldn't consider the fact that Paulie has hit 41 and 40 home runs the past two seasons vs. Giles's 15 and 23. But let's be fair: Giles did hit HRs in the high 30s four years in a row. From 1999-2002. :wink:

Considering Paulie hit 11 HR on the road this year, all in parks much friendlier to hitters than PETCO, it's conceivable that Paulie would put up less than 25 HR a year if he had to play in SD.

Having said that I still like us signing Paul over Giles - somehow we are at the point where 1B is a tougher position for us to fill than CF

maurice
11-28-2005, 05:22 PM
Giles over Konerko for reasons already stated. To restate a few: Giles is a better hitter (despite playing in a pitcher's park while Konerko plays in a HR hitter's fantasy), bats left-handed, and is more flexible defensively (allowing the possibility of seeing Thomas in 2006). IMO, the age difference is not likely to matter over the next 2 or 3 years.

If the options are something like Giles at 3 years / $30 mil. or Konerko at 5 years / $65+ mil., Giles is a no brainer.

MarySwiss
11-28-2005, 05:46 PM
Considering Paulie hit 11 HR on the road this year, all in parks much friendlier to hitters than PETCO, it's conceivable that Paulie would put up less than 25 HR a year if he had to play in SD.

Having said that I still like us signing Paul over Giles - somehow we are at the point where 1B is a tougher position for us to fill than CF

Yeah, I thought about that too, and you're right; it is entirely conceivable. But then again, we don't KNOW that. That's why, IMHO, stats arguments--given the differences in MLB parks' construction, playing conditions, etc.,--need to be taken with a grain of salt.

For example, there are no stats that will tell us what the difference would be between a 35-year-old Thome who DH'es most of the time and bats ahead of Konerko and a 35-year-old Thome who plays first most of the time and bats ahead of whoever-the-hell our DH winds up being. But my guess would be, if it's not a healthy Frank, ouch! Also, factor in the hightened risk of injury to a Thome who plays a starting position as compared to one who DH'es most of the time.

Now, back to the Paulie v. Giles question. I agree, 1B is tougher for us to fill than CF--unless we sign Paulie. That's why I cited the example above. IF WE SIGN PAULIE, Thome becomes the regular DH and plays some 1B, thus--in all likelihood--extending his career. Then, if we can sign someone like Giles, fine. If not, we go to Spring Training with outfield prospects, the best of whom is probably BA. And, unless he signs elsewhere, and I'd hate to see that happen, we see if Frank is healthy enough to come off the bench, sometimes DH'ing, sometimes pinch-hitting. Probably not playing on a regular basis, but if we can keep him in a Sox uni his whole career, I believe we should.

maurice
11-28-2005, 05:56 PM
Considering Paulie hit 11 HR on the road this year, all in parks much friendlier to hitters than PETCO, it's conceivable that Paulie would put up less than 25 HR a year if he had to play in SD.

Yeah, I thought about that too, and you're right; it is entirely conceivable. But then again, we don't KNOW that.

Well, you can never really know anything about future or hypothetical events, but the evidence suggests that it's very very very likely that Giles would do better in the Cell, while Konerko would do much, much worse in PetCo. JMHO based on a large body of evidence.

For example, there are no stats that will tell us what the difference would be between a 35-year-old Thome who DH'es most of the time and bats ahead of Konerko and a 35-year-old Thome who plays first most of the time and bats ahead of whoever-the-hell our DH winds up being.

It's possible that playing 1B would make Thome hit better. That was always Thomas' experience. We don't know how it will affect his health, but Thome's health probably will be the biggest unknown come April 2nd.

OTOH, Giles hitting in front of a healthy Thome (and behind Pods and Iguchi) at the Cell is bound to be much better than Giles hitting in front of Phil Nevin (and behind AAA players) at Petco.

Frater Perdurabo
11-28-2005, 06:25 PM
Giles over Konerko for reasons already stated. To restate a few: Giles is a better hitter (despite playing in a pitcher's park while Konerko plays in a HR hitter's fantasy), bats left-handed, and is more flexible defensively (allowing the possibility of seeing Thomas in 2006). IMO, the age difference is not likely to matter over the next 2 or 3 years.

If the options are something like Giles at 3 years / $30 mil. or Konerko at 5 years / $65+ mil., Giles is a no brainer.

Agreed, although as usual you are more concise than me. :redface:

Give me Giles. Then, give Dye lots of innings at first base in spring training. That way, we'll be protected in the event that Thome or Frank goes down.

MarySwiss
11-28-2005, 06:31 PM
Well, you can never really know anything about future or hypothetical events, but the evidence suggests that it's very very very likely that Giles would do better in the Cell, while Konerko would do much, much worse in PetCo. JMHO based on a large body of evidence.

It's possible that playing 1B would make Thome hit better. That was always Thomas' experience. We don't know how it will affect his health, but Thome's health probably will be the biggest unknown come April 2nd.

OTOH, Giles hitting in front of a healthy Thome (and behind Pods and Iguchi) at the Cell is bound to be much better than Giles hitting in front of Phil Nevin (and behind AAA players) at Petco.

Some points well taken, Maurice. But not all.

Speculation is all well and good. But in fact, Giles has never played at the Cell. Konerko has never played at Petco. So who knows what would, in fact, have happened.

Thomas hit better when playing first--when he was younger and in better physical condition than he is now. And you're right; we don't know how playing regularly would affect Thome's health. I know he passed a physical, but then again, so did Magglio last year, correct?

And your argument about how Giles would be better playing in front of a healthy Thome (and behind Pods and Iguchi) instead of hitting in front of Phil Nevin (and behind AAA players) at Petco is on the face of it completely irrelevant.

My best-case scenario has Thome DH'ing, PK playing 1B, and the Sox giving BA a shot at starting CF, depending on how he does in Spring Training.

Palehose13
11-28-2005, 06:44 PM
And your argument about how Giles would be better playing in front of a healthy Thome (and behind Pods and Iguchi) instead of hitting in front of Phil Nevin (and behind AAA players) at Petco is on the face of it completely irrelevant.


I have to disagree. I think it is very relevant. If it wasn't, why did KW promise to get PK another big bat for protection in the line up? Giles has put up very good numbers in one of (if not the) worst hitter's park with not much protection in the line up. I would imagine that he would do quite well in a hitter's park with protection around him.

btw...not totally in the Giles camp, but I do see the attraction.

nodiggity59
11-28-2005, 06:50 PM
I have to disagree. I think it is very relevant. If it wasn't, why did KW promise to get PK another big bat for protection in the line up? Giles has put up very good numbers in one of (if not the) worst hitter's park with not much protection in the line up. I would imagine that he would do quite well in a hitter's park with protection around him.

btw...not totally in the Giles camp, but I do see the attraction.

KW promised to upgrade the team w/ a left handed bat.......I'm not sure what that has to do w/ Konerko's individual #s improving. It was just a pledge to improve the team IMO.

I like Giles better than Konerko.....but I don't like having Giles and Thome. Too much age between them. PK has his faults, but he's still in his prime years and I'd rather only have 1 older player at our power spots in the lineup.

MarySwiss
11-28-2005, 07:01 PM
I have to disagree. I think it is very relevant. If it wasn't, why did KW promise to get PK another big bat for protection in the line up? Giles has put up very good numbers in one of (if not the) worst hitter's park with not much protection in the line up. I would imagine that he would do quite well in a hitter's park with protection around him.

btw...not totally in the Giles camp, but I do see the attraction.

PH, at risk of prompting some of the frat boys among us to start their "chick fight" chant, I disagree right back at'cha! :wink:

KW fulfilled his promise when he landed Thome. It's done. And you answer your own question: If KW promised to get PK "protection," what would be the point of bringing in Giles who "would do quite well in a hitter's park with protection around him." If everybody is in need of protection, then who is doing the protecting?

"Believe it or not, I'm walking on air!" (Greatest American Hero song)

Palehose13
11-28-2005, 07:20 PM
PH, at risk of prompting some of the frat boys among us to start their "chick fight" chant, I disagree right back at'cha! :wink:

KW fulfilled his promise when he landed Thome. It's done. And you answer your own question: If KW promised to get PK "protection," what would be the point of bringing in Giles who "would do quite well in a hitter's park with protection around him." If everybody is in need of protection, then who is doing the protecting?

"Believe it or not, I'm walking on air!" (Greatest American Hero song)

With all due respect: Jesus Christ woman, have you ever played ball?

When you have only one dominant hitter in your line up the pitcher usually does not "go after him". He will throw junk cause he knows even if said dominant hitter walks, there is no one to fear after him. If you have very good 3-4-5 hitters (Giles, PK, Thome...not necessarily in that order) they are going to see much better pitches than if chopped liver was batting behind them. Let's break down the top 4 batters:

Podsednik (somehow gets on base I don't care) and gets into the pitchers head. Because of this the pitcher is probably going to give Iguchi fastballs near the plate (cause he wants the ball to get to the plate fast AND he doesn't want "control issues")which is perfect for the role that the #2 hitter has. Next, Thome comes up with an RBI opportunity. If PK isn't behind him, the pitcher will most likely throw junk to try to get Thome to strikeout or walk. However, since PK is up next he doesn't want Thome to walk (to load the bases or even have 2 men on) so he gives Thome better pitches to hit and drive. Same scenario for PK if someone like Giles instead of Everett is in the 5-hole. That is what I mean by protection.

*edit: I know the promise is fulfilled by getting Thome. I explicitly said that I was neither for nor against getting Giles, but could see his attractiveness.

MarySwiss
11-28-2005, 08:21 PM
With all due respect: Jesus Christ woman, have you ever played ball?

When you have only one dominant hitter in your line up the pitcher usually does not "go after him". He will throw junk cause he knows even if said dominant hitter walks, there is no one to fear after him. If you have very good 3-4-5 hitters (Giles, PK, Thome...not necessarily in that order) they are going to see much better pitches than if chopped liver was batting behind them. Let's break down the top 4 batters:

Podsednik (somehow gets on base I don't care) and gets into the pitchers head. Because of this the pitcher is probably going to give Iguchi fastballs near the plate (cause he wants the ball to get to the plate fast AND he doesn't want "control issues")which is perfect for the role that the #2 hitter has. Next, Thome comes up with an RBI opportunity. If PK isn't behind him, the pitcher will most likely throw junk to try to get Thome to strikeout or walk. However, since PK is up next he doesn't want Thome to walk (to load the bases or even have 2 men on) so he gives Thome better pitches to hit and drive. Same scenario for PK if someone like Giles instead of Everett is in the 5-hole. That is what I mean by protection.

*edit: I know the promise is fulfilled by getting Thome. I explicitly said that I was neither for nor against getting Giles, but could see his attractiveness.

Have I ever played ball? Let's see. Well, as a matter of fact, I have. Softball--12", 14", 14" mush, and 16." Also volleyball, basketball, and football. And tennis. And soccer. And golf. Haven't played hardball, but that wasn't an option when I was younger, before Title IX. And I'm still playing competitive volleyball at age 53.

But none of this has nothing to do with my point, which is, KW fulfilled his promise to Konerko by getting Thome. So we are not talking about "one dominant hitter." And where did you pull the "go after him" quote?" Not from anything I said.

Much as I love to argue, I'm tired, so I'll stop now and fetch myself a brandy. If you want to argue some more, feel free to PM me! :wink:

Whoops, just saw your edit. So what are we arguing about? I agree Giles'd be attractive, just not necessary. I believe Paulie is necessary. G'Night.

Taliesinrk
11-28-2005, 08:34 PM
Giles... in a heartbeat.. I want to see Frank, and a better overall team. Let's face it; while Thome is a slight injury risk next year, Frank is the real ?. If you get Giles and the Big Man, the line-up is devastating. If Frank goes down, you can either play Gload at first (which I don't believe is as bad as some make it sound) and move Thome to DH while keeping Giles in the OF, or move Giles to DH, Thome stays at 1B, and Anderson/Young play OF. In essence you have the same line-up with PK, except you replace him with Giles. I'll take the risk with the upside of that scenario.
In essence your reward of Giles-Frank-Thome is definately worth the risk of replacing PK w/ Giles.
Furthermore, by signing Frank to an incentive based contract, the Sox could work it so that if he did go down they would be able to make a trade during the season to fill his hole.

Chisox003
11-28-2005, 08:37 PM
Giles... in a heartbeat.. I want to see Frank, and a better overall team. Let's face it; while Thome is a slight injury risk next year, Frank is the real ?. If you get Giles and the Big Man, the line-up is devastating. If Frank goes down, you can either play Gload at first (which I don't believe is as bad as some make it sound) and move Thome to DH while keeping Giles in the OF, or move Giles to DH, Thome stays at 1B, and Anderson/Young play OF. In essence you have the same line-up with PK, except you replace him with Giles. I'll take the risk with the upside of that scenario.
In essence your reward of Giles-Frank-Thome is definately worth the risk of replacing PK w/ Giles.
Furthermore, by signing Frank to an incentive based contract, the Sox could work it so that if he did go down they would be able to make a trade during the season to fill his hole.
Any scenario where Ross Gload is a possible starter can't be good.

I think he signed with the Padres anyway.

Give me Paulie, hands down.

santo=dorf
11-28-2005, 08:42 PM
I think he signed with the Padres anyway.

No Farmino, that was Blum.

Palehose13
11-28-2005, 09:20 PM
Have I ever played ball? Let's see. Well, as a matter of fact, I have. Softball--12", 14", 14" mush, and 16." Also volleyball, basketball, and football. And tennis. And soccer. And golf. Haven't played hardball, but that wasn't an option when I was younger, before Title IX. And I'm still playing competitive volleyball at age 53.

But none of this has nothing to do with my point, which is, KW fulfilled his promise to Konerko by getting Thome. So we are not talking about "one dominant hitter." And where did you pull the "go after him" quote?" Not from anything I said.

Much as I love to argue, I'm tired, so I'll stop now and fetch myself a brandy. If you want to argue some more, feel free to PM me! :wink:

Whoops, just saw your edit. So what are we arguing about? I agree Giles'd be attractive, just not necessary. I believe Paulie is necessary. G'Night.

For the record, my vote is for PK and I like the idea of Giles replacing Anderson if Giles can come at the right price.

"Go after him" is in quotes because I was pulling together a phrase for emphasis.

I was just shocked that you question the idea of a dominant hitter needing protection in the line up.

Chisox003
11-28-2005, 09:22 PM
No Farmino, that was Blum.
Well there's my source.

Woopsie :redface:

Hagan
11-28-2005, 11:44 PM
It is deffinately Konerko. Giles is a good hitter and his stats were down since he is hitting in a pitchers park but we need konerko back. I dont want to put thome at first.

Randar68
11-28-2005, 11:58 PM
It is deffinately Konerko. Giles is a good hitter and his stats were down since he is hitting in a pitchers park but we need konerko back. I dont want to put thome at first.

Well how do you feel about Dye at 1st and Giles in RF? :D:

TheOldRoman
11-29-2005, 12:16 AM
Well how do you feel about Dye at 1st and Giles in RF? :D:
I know how much venom gets spewed here when anyone suggests Dye moving to first, but I believe the Sox are considering it.
Mr. Peepers (Chuck Garfein) interviewed RicK Hahn on Comcast's Jim Thome special tonight. He said was talking about the possible lineups, particularly with Anderson playing CF. Hahn said "We are hoping Paulie comes back. If he does, we would be able to keep Jermain Dye in right field, Thome would DH, and then Anderson would be the CF." He went on to say that if Konerko doesn't come back, they will have a lot more "options", and implied that they might get another CF. I don't know if they have talked to Giles yet, but I think they are considering signing him to play right and moving Dye to first while Thome is DH.

The Dude
11-29-2005, 12:39 AM
With all apologies to Konerko, I voted for Giles.

SHOCKING!!!!!!


Paulie hands down.

ShoelessJoeS
11-29-2005, 01:13 AM
Wow, I didn't even expect to see him in this poll. The answer is obvious, Paulie.

Banix12
11-29-2005, 01:28 AM
I also see the attraction to Giles however it would all depend on the contract. I don't think I want to give him more than two years mostly because I would fear that 3rd year with Thome and Giles both around 38 years old and in the middle of the lineup.

I pick Konerko mostly because he is younger and has had the two good seasons in a row. While I think Thome might be able to play a solid 1b in his place this season I'm really not confident about his future in the field and I don't have a lot of confidence in the 1b Prospects coming up in the system. I think Dye could become a solid 1b but that would be just another "if?" to pile on the coming season. Ideally I would like to limit the question marks going into next year.

I like Giles just fine, great OBP guy and probably still has a couple of solid seasons in him however I just look around the league and I don't see many really good 1b out there that will be available in the near future (Aubrey Huff and Derrek Lee appear to be the best available FA after 2006, both will command pretty high salaries as well, though i doubt either reaches FA, especially Lee).

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2005, 09:44 AM
Well how do you feel about Dye at 1st and Giles in RF? :D:Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to leave the gold-glove outfielder in RF and put Giles at 1B?

Sox-on-TV44
11-29-2005, 09:58 AM
PAULIE!


'NUFF SAID!!!!

Flight #24
11-29-2005, 10:08 AM
FWIW, there are reports of the Blow Jays offering Giles a 5-$55 contract.

:o: :o:

I simply cannot believe that for a guy who's that old. If true, there' no freaking way I want KW anywhere near that. I'd do $11M for Giles, but on nothing more than 3 years.

Next? The prospect of Juan Pierre in a lineup absent Paulie is frighteningly popgun. We could really end up with Thome @ 1B and Nomar/Thomas @ DH, which is ridiculously risky.

Frater Perdurabo
11-29-2005, 10:22 AM
I pick Konerko mostly because he is younger and has had the two good seasons in a row. While I think Thome might be able to play a solid 1b in his place this season I'm really not confident about his future in the field and I don't have a lot of confidence in the 1b Prospects coming up in the system. I think Dye could become a solid 1b but that would be just another "if?" to pile on the coming season. Ideally I would like to limit the question marks going into next year.

I think Giles could be had for three years, $30 million. He'd be gone after 2008.

Regarding eliminating question marks: As with the stock market, "prior performance is no guarantee of future results."

The Sox went into 2005 with many question marks: Garland (would he ever live up to his potential?), Paulie (would he revert to his awful 2003 performance?), Frank (will he heal?), AJ (is he a clubhouse cancer?), Everett (is he washed up or just crazy?), Rowand (can he repeat his 2004 totals?), Dye (will he stay healthy?), Contreras (is he a head case?), El Duque (will he stay healthy?), Crede (will he ever hit?), Pods (will he have a season like 2003 or like 2004?), Iguchi (Kenny scouted him via VIDEO TAPE???). For goodness sake, three-fifths of the rotation, the entire outfield and four of five infield positions were "question marks," and that's generously counting Uribe as a "sure thing!"

Sure, we'd like to eliminate question marks, but the moment we and the Sox think everything is set, someone else gets gets hurt, or a tired arm, or slips in the shower, or goes into a massive slump.

So, the better idea is to arm your team in as many ways as possible to protect yourself from any type of contingency - and leave yourself plenty of flexibility to address unforseen problems down the road.

Signing Paulie to a five-year deal may seem like the most reasonable thing to do because he SEEMS to have the fewest questions marks. After all, he has a clean bill of health and put up consecutive 40 HR seasons. But signing Paulie to such a deal eats up all of the projected remaining payroll, probably precludes Frank returning and in short severely limits any flexibility a lower-cost, cheaper, shorter-term Giles signing might allow.

Plus, all things being equal, there's a strong possibility that by playing 81 games at the hitter-friendly Cell, Giles could put up numbers that are equal to, if not better than, what Konerko has done:

BTW, Giles' CAREER OPS is almost 50 points higher than Konerko's BEST year...

Also, Maurice has argued that it's foolish to tie up significantly more than 10 percent of a team's payroll in a one-dimensional (power hitting) first baseman. Although Paulie performed admirably on the grandest stage last month, I personally would not let sentimentality get in the way of good sense.

In 2006, Thome 1B, Frank DH (if healthy), Giles in center. If Frank goes down, move Thome to DH, Dye to first, Giles to RF and Anderson to CF.

As for the future (2007 and beyond), if Thome can't play 1B, re-sign Dye to play 1B or find a stop-gap free agent. In a 2007 or 2008, Ryan Sweeney may be ready to step up. If not, a power hitting 1B is among the easiest things to find on the trade market (Helton) or as a free agent (Teixeira). First base is also flexible because you can move virtually any position player there if they have an offseason to prepare. As others have pointed out, Cecil Fielder(!) played first base.

Finally, and most importantly, a shorter, cheaper deal for Giles also allows the Sox to devote more resources to keeping their best pitchers. This is what Atlanta (Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine) and the Yankees (Mussina, Pettitte, Clemens) did when they were at their peak. No wonder those teams have taken a step back; each let some of their best pitchers leave (especially the Yankees). The best thing the Sox can do is hang on to their good, young pitchers for the long haul (Buehrle, Garland, McCarthy and even Garcia and Contreras), while drafting and developing good back-of-the-rotation starters like Broadway and quality position players like Anderson, Young, Valido, Owens, Sweeney and Fields.

With all due respect to Paulie, Giles makes more sense for so many reasons.

Frater Perdurabo
11-29-2005, 10:25 AM
FWIW, there are reports of the Blow Jays offering Giles a 5-$55 contract.

:o: :o:

I simply cannot believe that for a guy who's that old. If true, there' no freaking way I want KW anywhere near that. I'd do $11M for Giles, but on nothing more than 3 years.

Well, if that's the case, the Jays can have him. While I prefer Giles over Koneko, I don't prefer Giles for five guaranteed years at $11 million per year.

If I were the Sox and really wanted Giles, I'd counter the Jay's offer with three years guaranteed, two mutual option years (meaning that both he and the team would have to exercise the option), and a chance to play for the defending world champs.

Flight #24
11-29-2005, 10:30 AM
Well, if that's the case, the Jays can have him. While I prefer Giles over Koneko, I don't prefer Giles for five guaranteed years at $11 million per year.

If I were the Sox and really wanted Giles, I'd counter the Jay's offer with three years guaranteed, two mutual option years (meaning that both he and the team would have to exercise the option), and a chance to play for the defending world champs.

Take it FWIW, here's the link (http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/MLB/Toronto/2005/11/29/1328885-sun.html) & quote

And now Ricciardi is looking for another high-ranking officer/free-agent, making a five-year, $55-million offer to outfielder Brian Giles. The 34-year-old left-handed hitter batted .301 this season with 15 homers and 83 RBIs in 158 games for the San Diego Padres

maurice
11-29-2005, 02:06 PM
Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to leave the gold-glove outfielder in RF and put Giles at 1B?

Giles in 2006 probably is a better OF than Dye in 2006. Dye is not currently a Gold Glove RF.

OTOH, we already have a 1B. His name is Thome. :cool:

nevr say dye sox
11-29-2005, 02:09 PM
You think maybe KW is using the old slow play, and acting like he wouldn't want Rameriz on the Sox. If the Angels sign Konerko, they won't be able to sign Manny without dumping Finley's contract. Maybe if the Red Sox pay some of Manny's contract we could land him and get him and Thome back together!

Flight #24
11-29-2005, 02:12 PM
You think maybe KW is using the old slow play, and acting like he wouldn't want Rameriz on the Sox. If the Angels sign Konerko, they won't be able to sign Manny without dumping Finley's contract. Maybe if the Red Sox pay some of Manny's contract we could land him and get him and Thome back together!

On the Angels board they're talking about signing Paulie enabling them to trade Kotchman in a deal for Manny+cash. I'm assuming they'd give up more, but that would give the BoSox a solid young/cheap 1B.