PDA

View Full Version : THOME...upgrade of thomas?


rbeze09
11-27-2005, 08:44 PM
I understand thome has had a helluva a career, but hasnt he had injury problems the last couple of years just like frank. I'm gonna be completly honest...I'm not gonna be at all happy to hear Gene Honda say "designated hitter, Jim Thome." I've always been a huge fan of the BIG HUrt and I kind of look at this as a stab in the back to him. He's has battled it out with THome for years in the AL central and he has continually put up better numbers. I know Frank's best years are behind him, but I thought the SOx should let him end his career with the black and white pinstripes on

Banix12
11-27-2005, 08:54 PM
Certainly there should be concerns about Thome's injuries last season, but before last season he had a history of being incredibly healthy. Frank's injury problems have been recurring now for a few seasons in a row, they are also foot and ankle injuries which are incredibly difficult to overcome for a guy his size. Thome's injuries are far less likely to reoccur than Frank's.

I understand the sentimental reasons why Frank should be back but for baseball reasons Thome is an upgrade.

Palehose13
11-27-2005, 09:37 PM
Sentiment doesn't win championships. I LOVE Frank Thomas. He is the best hitter to ever wear the Sox uniform. However, we have absolutely no idea how his rehab is progressing. I would hope that he is keeping the organization updated, but he really doesn't have to since he is a FA. Personally (and I hate to say this) I think Frank is done playing baseball.

At this point, Thome IS an upgrade. He has had a physical, he is in great shape and ready to go. IIRC, last year was the only one that was cut short due to injury. Frank has had 3 cut short since 2001.

jabrch
11-27-2005, 10:24 PM
Thome has been healthy almost all his career. Before last year he hasn't played under 145 games since 1999, and even then it wasn't due to injury.


Oh, and by the way, he has yet to play in a hitters park like USCF. IF he is healthy, he could put up the same sort of numbers that Konerko put up. Now if the two of them hit back-to-back, what they could do would be...amazing.

Kilroy
11-27-2005, 10:56 PM
Its just so, for lack of a better word, distasteful. How many years did we spend hating Thome as an Jndian? Sure, we respected his ability, but he was a 'toon. And I realize that he hasn't been a rival for a while now, but you never quite forget those feelings. Unlike many who embraced the arrival of Dennis Rodman, I never did, and hated every day he was on the Bulls, even tho they won. Granted, Thome wasn't quite that hated as an Jndian, but along that line.

The topper is that I've followed Frank Thomas since the Sox drafted him with the 7th overall pick in 1989. And he's been my favorite ever Sox player for 16 years. That's a long time. Longer than Jordan or Payton's careers here in Chicago. Thome's arrival pretty much means the end of Thomas' career here, barring something really unusual that I can't foresee.

I wanted to see Frank choose the moment, rather than the other way around. And it'll be sickening to see him in other colors, should that happen. It's still just a bit of a gut punch right now.

ChiSoxIn06
11-27-2005, 11:00 PM
well perhaps thomas will feel the same way and just walk away from the game while on top.

CHISOXFAN13
11-27-2005, 11:24 PM
Its just so, for lack of a better word, distasteful. How many years did we spend hating Thome as an Jndian? Sure, we respected his ability, but he was a 'toon. And I realize that he hasn't been a rival for a while now, but you never quite forget those feelings. Unlike many who embraced the arrival of Dennis Rodman, I never did, and hated every day he was on the Bulls, even tho they won. Granted, Thome wasn't quite that hated as an Jndian, but along that line.

The topper is that I've followed Frank Thomas since the Sox drafted him with the 7th overall pick in 1989. And he's been my favorite ever Sox player for 16 years. That's a long time. Longer than Jordan or Payton's careers here in Chicago. Thome's arrival pretty much means the end of Thomas' career here, barring something really unusual that I can't foresee.

I wanted to see Frank choose the moment, rather than the other way around. And it'll be sickening to see him in other colors, should that happen. It's still just a bit of a gut punch right now.

I'm sure you felt the same way about A.J. but that worked out alright.

MHOUSE
11-27-2005, 11:26 PM
If we based our team on sentiment at the time of trades or letting guys go, our lineup would look like this:

2B Durham
SS Valentin
1B Thomas
RF Maggs
3B Ventura
LF Lee
CF Rowand
C Olivo

Those are all players that when they were traded or let leave via free agency (for the most part) were greatly missed by Sox fans and rightly so because they were all great players for us. But, if our lineup looked like that I doubt we would be celebrating a World Championship or even a winning season for that matter. Baseball is a business and sometimes even when your heart says 'no way' you have to listen to your (or KW's) baseball brain.

Thome is a huge upgrade over the 2005 Frank Thomas, no question.

MadetoOrta
11-27-2005, 11:28 PM
well perhaps thomas will feel the same way and just walk away from the game while on top.

Unfortunately, that's the likely scenario. I love the Big Hurt too. I'm ecstatic that he got his ring. That said, I think it unrealistic to see the Big Hurt back again.

santo=dorf
11-27-2005, 11:35 PM
I understand thome has had a helluva a career, but hasnt he had injury problems the last couple of years just like frank.

Wrong.

Thome was only hurt in 2005. ONE season

The Sox have been dying for a left-handed power bat for some time, and yet some people are still down on getting Jim Thome.

I don't get it. :?:

Banix12
11-27-2005, 11:49 PM
If we based our team on sentiment at the time of trades or letting guys go, our lineup would look like this:

2B Durham
SS Valentin
1B Thomas
RF Maggs
3B Ventura
LF Lee
CF Rowand
C Olivo

Those are all players that when they were traded or let leave via free agency (for the most part) were greatly missed by Sox fans and rightly so because they were all great players for us. But, if our lineup looked like that I doubt we would be celebrating a World Championship or even a winning season for that matter. Baseball is a business and sometimes even when your heart says 'no way' you have to listen to your (or KW's) baseball brain.

Thome is a huge upgrade over the 2005 Frank Thomas, no question.


You forgot to add Tony G to that sentiment roster.

gowhitesox
11-28-2005, 12:08 AM
Next season if Jim Thome would hit a home run to win the World Series, everybody who didn't want him would love him all of a sudden.

rbeze09
11-28-2005, 12:18 AM
I'm starting to realize that it's probably in the best interest of the team, but it's definitely gonna be weird seeing him in black and white. I guess its the same as AJ coming to town, I hated him while he was in minnesota. Thome will probably put up great numbers if hes healthy, so we will see what happens. I think we should try to pick up another speed guy though.

The Critic
11-28-2005, 12:43 AM
Its just so, for lack of a better word, distasteful. How many years did we spend hating Thome as an Jndian? Sure, we respected his ability, but he was a 'toon. And I realize that he hasn't been a rival for a while now, but you never quite forget those feelings. Unlike many who embraced the arrival of Dennis Rodman, I never did, and hated every day he was on the Bulls, even tho they won. Granted, Thome wasn't quite that hated as an Jndian, but along that line.

The topper is that I've followed Frank Thomas since the Sox drafted him with the 7th overall pick in 1989. And he's been my favorite ever Sox player for 16 years. That's a long time. Longer than Jordan or Payton's careers here in Chicago. Thome's arrival pretty much means the end of Thomas' career here, barring something really unusual that I can't foresee.

I wanted to see Frank choose the moment, rather than the other way around. And it'll be sickening to see him in other colors, should that happen. It's still just a bit of a gut punch right now.

I personally never hated Jim Thome, I just hated what he'd do to the Sox. Thome always struck me as a professional and a guy who respected the game and was not a showboat. I'm thrilled to have him in the silver, black and white.
I am, however, VERY sad that this most likely means the end of the Frank Thomas Era in Chicago. I wish Frank only the best wherever he might go, except when his success would be detrimental to that of the White Sox.

Kilroy
11-28-2005, 01:07 AM
I'm sure you felt the same way about A.J. but that worked out alright.

No, that's not true. I should have made it more clear that Rodman was sort of a special case. He earned the kind of hatred that just couldn't be cured by dying his hair red w/ a Bulls logo in it, and his antics were nauseating.

I always thought AJ was the kind of player you love when he's on your team.

Its not that Thome was so hated as a rival, its that his arrival is the catalyst to ending the career of probably the greatest Sox player we'll ever see in our lifetimes, and he happens to be one who I've been a fan of since the moment he came to my favorite team.

Nellie_Fox
11-28-2005, 02:33 AM
The point is that a HEALTHY Thome is not as good as a HEALTHY Thomas, and there is no reason (at least made public) to believe that Thome is more likely to be healthy. We're not talking about getting rid of an aging player because there's a youngster coming up who'll play for a lot less to free up money. We're talking about getting rid of an aging superstar for another aging player who will cost more, not less. It's not about Thome's elbow folks. He was missing games due to his back before the elbow went bad, and I haven't seen anything about that having been addressed. Back problems don't get better as you get older.

Banix12
11-28-2005, 03:14 AM
The point is that a HEALTHY Thome is not as good as a HEALTHY Thomas, and there is no reason (at least made public) to believe that Thome is more likely to be healthy. We're not talking about getting rid of an aging player because there's a youngster coming up who'll play for a lot less to free up money. We're talking about getting rid of an aging superstar for another aging player who will cost more, not less. It's not about Thome's elbow folks. He was missing games due to his back before the elbow went bad, and I haven't seen anything about that having been addressed. Back problems don't get better as you get older.

There has also been no real reason to believe Frank Thomas will be fit to play baseball at all next season. Thome passed a physical, I'm not entirely sure Frank could do that right now or even next spring.

I think it is fair to say that we haven't seen a healthy Frank Thomas since his injury first occured in 2004. And it basically took him a year to get healthy enough to play roughly a month of games before getting injured again. I don't know how much of a rehab he has to do for this foot injury comparitively to his ankle injury but I'd have to assume since it didn't look like his ankle was fully healed to begin with it will probably take awhile.

I don't think we are ever going to see a healthy Frank Thomas again, just my opinion. Certainly Thome is a risk because Back problems don't normally heal, but back problems can usually take treatment more effectively than injuries to the foot and ankle.

Frankly Missing
11-28-2005, 04:08 AM
The thought of Thome replacing Thomas is just plain wrong.

This is how I feel about the Frank and PK senario.

No one feels a sense of obligation to their employees or employers anymore. Thus, no job security whether your collar is blue or white.

The whole world revolves under the Scrooge theory of business. He didn't give a damn his employee's years of faithful service.

KW should be saying to Frank:

" Hey Big Guy, No way are we gonna humiliate you by making you wear one of those other goofy lookin uniforms! We don't care if you play a week and re-injure that big fat foot of yours. You ARE the greatest White Sox player EVER, you deserve this chance. Here is some dough, if you run around the bases alot, we'll give you some more!""

Konerko should be saying to KW:

"Hey KW, What??! You want to give me 12 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR??!!" I really love you guys and the White Sox fans for suffering through my slumps month after month after month. Everyone has been so supportive of me here in Chicago. I am just happy I got to make it up to everyone by kicking butt in the playoffs and winning the FREAKING WORLD SERIES!"

"Oh yea Kenny, thanx for not trading me when i couldn't get a hit to save my life! I wouldn't dream of holding out for more money or playing anywhere else and wearing some goofy looking uniform!"

But noooooooooo, all we hear is, it's a business, I'm gonna screw you because I can.

IlliniSox4Life
11-28-2005, 04:40 AM
"Oh yea Kenny, thanx for not trading me when i couldn't get a hit to save my life! I wouldn't dream of holding out for more money or playing anywhere else and wearing some goofy looking uniform!"

But noooooooooo, all we hear is, it's a business, I'm gonna screw you because I can.

To be fair to Paulie, he wanted an extension before the season started and gave the Sox every chance to give him one. They decided to not offer him one in their interests, so IMO, Paulie has every right to "test the market" like he has said he is.

That said, I do think the Sox owe it to Frank to offer him some money and a roster spot, regardless of his health. I would spare a bench spot for Frank. If you want to protect your interests and get Thome, that's fine, worst case scenario, Thome is the DH and Frank is injured. You basically lose the 2 or 3 million you're paying Frank, but guarantee your fan base will not hate you and a legend to be your hitting coach/3rd base coach of the future. It might just be me, but I love seeing the old sox players on the coaching staff and still being a part of the club. Best case scenario, you have a R or L DH in the lineup and a killer pinch hitter coming off the bench. Frank seemed to hit really well last year sharing time with Carl, and as much as he might not want to accept it, he will probably play better when he rests every other day.

Frankly Missing
11-28-2005, 07:57 AM
To be fair to Paulie, he wanted an extension before the season started and gave the Sox every chance to give him one. They decided to not offer him one in their interests, so IMO, Paulie has every right to "test the market" like he has said he is.


Sure thing PK wanted to make a deal before the season started. He probably had doubts about being able to match his previous seasons stats.

I hope PK does come back. Howver he is clogging the basepaths of KW's progress to get the Sox ready to rock.:o:

SouthSoxFan
11-28-2005, 08:57 AM
Oh, and by the way, he has yet to play in a hitters park like USCF. IF he is healthy, he could put up the same sort of numbers that Konerko put up.
You may wanna check out Citizens Bank Park a bit further, worst place to pitch east of the Rockies.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-28-2005, 10:27 AM
Whichever ballplayer is HEALTHY is the one that is the upgrade. If Konerko doesn't re-sign, the Sox will still need Frank Thomas. And if Konerko does sign, Frank will have a job someplace in MLB. He's that good, even with the injury doubts.

The Sox are a championship ballclub and it's tough to stick. Fortunately the winter is still young. Let's wait and see what happens.

WestSox
11-28-2005, 10:31 AM
The point is that a HEALTHY Thome is not as good as a HEALTHY Thomas, and there is no reason (at least made public) to believe that Thome is more likely to be healthy.

A healthy Thome can play 1B, which may be very important if Paulie goes elsewhere. I'm not sure that Frank can do anything other than DH at this point.

And I disagree that Thome and Frank's health situations are anything near equal. Frank probably couldn't even pass a physical at this point. Thome only missed significant time this past season with no significant time missed since his 123 games played in '98. Frank has failed to play 75 games in three out of the past five seasons and is coming off of 74- and 34-games played over the past two years due to the same injury in the same foot.

I'm concerned about Thome's back problems as well, but I think that he's definitely the safer bet at this point... and we're getting him at half-price. As much as I like Frank and wish that the Sox could find a place for him, his time on the South Side might be over.

Chicken Dinner
11-28-2005, 11:13 AM
For all those who don't like Thome, they're attitude will change the first time he hits a bomb over the right field wall.

daveeym
11-28-2005, 11:37 AM
To be fair to Paulie, he wanted an extension before the season started and gave the Sox every chance to give him one. They decided to not offer him one in their interests, so IMO, Paulie has every right to "test the market" like he has said he is.

That said, I do think the Sox owe it to Frank to offer him some money and a roster spot, regardless of his health. I would spare a bench spot for Frank. If you want to protect your interests and get Thome, that's fine, worst case scenario, Thome is the DH and Frank is injured. You basically lose the 2 or 3 million you're paying Frank, but guarantee your fan base will not hate you and a legend to be your hitting coach/3rd base coach of the future. It might just be me, but I love seeing the old sox players on the coaching staff and still being a part of the club. Best case scenario, you have a R or L DH in the lineup and a killer pinch hitter coming off the bench. Frank seemed to hit really well last year sharing time with Carl, and as much as he might not want to accept it, he will probably play better when he rests every other day. Frank does not want some money and a roster spot, he wants an everday gig and 500 home runs. Given the current circumstances it would be silly from a team perspective to offer that to Frank. It's in neither Frank's nor the teams best interest to have him as a Sox next year if PK is signed.

IlliniSox4Life
11-28-2005, 11:45 AM
Frank does not want some money and a roster spot, he wants an everday gig and 500 home runs. Given the current circumstances it would be silly from a team perspective to offer that to Frank. It's in neither Frank's nor the teams best interest to have him as a Sox next year if PK is signed.

My point was, the team at least owes it to Frank to offer him that money and slot. Maybe he doesn't take it, but he's at least earned the offer. There might not be a better offer out there from some other team, they might not want to take a risk. I would hate to see Frank be forced into retirement because no team wants to take a chance.

And how can you say exactly what is in Frank's and the team's best interest? There has been some concerns about Thome's health as well, and while I don't believe he is "injury prone", it wouldn't be completely unrealistic for him to be injured next season or not perform up to expectations. It also wouldn't be completely unrealistic for Frank to actually get fairly healthy. There are too many unknowns right now to say what is in whose best interest.

Deadguy
11-28-2005, 11:55 AM
well perhaps thomas will feel the same way and just walk away from the game while on top.

I've seen nothing or heard nothing that would indicate the above is true. Besides, he wouldn't be going out on top, he'd be going out not having been able to catch up to a 88 MPH Nate Robertson fastball.

Frank has plenty of reasons to keep playing, and he has indicated he feels he can play 3 more seasons. It's very hard for players to just walk away, when they feel they still can have an impact on the game, and while he's still within grasp of a certain milestone. Unless there has been some kind of set back in his rehab, he'll be playing in 2006.

Barry Larkin chose to walk away from the game rather than play in anything besides a Reds uniform, but Frank has never indicated that he'd do the same thing if he couldn't play for the White Sox. He's indicated in the past that he looks up to Harold, and will keep playing until the phone stops ringing.

Frankly Missing
11-28-2005, 11:58 AM
For all those who don't like Thome, they're attitude will change the first time he hits a bomb over the right field wall.

I don't think it's a matter of not liking Thome or even the trade itself. Some are concerned he can deliver what he's advertising. If he can, time to celebrate.

But if this chain of recent events causing a healthy Frank to leave the Sox, I will carry a long hard grudge to my grave!!

Flight #24
11-28-2005, 12:05 PM
Bottom line: you can't depend on Frank right now, and if you wait until you find out whether you can or not, you won't have any real backup options available.

Unfortunately, the only real alternatives as a middle of the order power hitter are also 1B/DHs (unless you want to trade for Manny). So from a timing perspective, you're stuck possibly screwing the team by waiting for Frank or moving on.

But here's hoping that Frank is willing to take extra recovery time, sign a 1-yr deal to have his recovery year with the Sox and provide depth & insurance for injuries. Then after showing he's back and playing well albiet in a reduced role, he can hit the market for real in 2006.

Canadian_SoxFan
11-28-2005, 12:36 PM
I don't think KW acquires Thome if Frank is healthy. I believe Frank probably told Kenny that he will not be healthy enough to be productive next season. I think this will probably be the end of his great career because I do not see him signing on with another team.

daveeym
11-28-2005, 12:54 PM
My point was, the team at least owes it to Frank to offer him that money and slot. Maybe he doesn't take it, but he's at least earned the offer. There might not be a better offer out there from some other team, they might not want to take a risk. I would hate to see Frank be forced into retirement because no team wants to take a chance.

And how can you say exactly what is in Frank's and the team's best interest? There has been some concerns about Thome's health as well, and while I don't believe he is "injury prone", it wouldn't be completely unrealistic for him to be injured next season or not perform up to expectations. It also wouldn't be completely unrealistic for Frank to actually get fairly healthy. There are too many unknowns right now to say what is in whose best interest. The Sox have already told you what's in their best interest. JIM THOME.

The Sox are working with a lot fewer unknowns than anyone else.

I love when sentiment overruns the obvious, both in commone sense and moves the team has made, and turns into "how do you know" arguments. :rolleyes:

Deadguy
11-28-2005, 01:07 PM
I don't think KW acquires Thome if Frank is healthy. I believe Frank probably told Kenny that he will not be healthy enough to be productive next season. I think this will probably be the end of his great career because I do not see him signing on with another team.

Frank doesn't have to tell KW he's not healthy, since this is knowledge that can be acquired by anyone who cares to know it. As of November 28th, 2005, of course FT isn't healthy.

KW was with Frank when Frank was told by Dr. Weiss that he had developed a different fracture in his foot, and would not be able to play again in 2005. It's not like Frank's in any position to be discrete about his health status.

This doesn't mean that this is the end of Frank's career though, unless he has to have surgery.

I seriously doubt FT went to KW and told him he wouldn't be healthy enough to be productive next season, since he or anyone with potentially millions of dollars left on the table would have to be a moron of massive proportions to tell any baseball executive the above.

While FT and KW's relationship isn't as rocky as it was back in 2002, it's not like they are best friends, and it's in neither of their best interests for them to have that kind of a relationship. Players have agents for a reason, and since the Sox bought out Thomas's option, Frank's ties with the organization have been cut. Tellum has probably been the only one to act as any kind of mediator between the two sides since then, if there have been any discussions of any kind.

Canadian_SoxFan
11-28-2005, 01:22 PM
Frank doesn't have to tell KW he's not healthy, since this is knowledge that can be acquired by anyone who cares to know it. As of November 28th, 2005, of course FT isn't healthy.

KW was with Frank when Frank was told by Dr. Weiss that he had developed a different fracture in his foot, and would not be able to play again in 2005. It's not like Frank's in any position to be discrete about his health status.

This doesn't mean that this is the end of Frank's career though, unless he has to have surgery.

I seriously doubt FT went to KW and told him he wouldn't be healthy enough to be productive next season, since he or anyone with potentially millions of dollars left on the table would have to be a moron of massive proportions to tell any baseball executive the above.

While FT and KW's relationship isn't as rocky as it was back in 2002, it's not like they are best friends, and it's in neither of their best interests for them to have that kind of a relationship. Players have agents for a reason, and since the Sox bought out Thomas's option, Frank's ties with the organization have been cut. Tellum has probably been the only one to act as any kind of mediator between the two sides since then, if there have been any discussions of any kind. While I understand that Frank doesnt have to tell KW if he's healthy or not, I do think that he would want to end his career in Chicago, and that would mean being honest with himself and the White Sox organization that he may never be healthy again. I understand that it is in KW best interest to do what's best for the team, I seriosuly doubt he acquired Thome without talking to Frank first.

IlliniSox4Life
11-28-2005, 01:25 PM
The Sox have already told you what's in their best interest. JIM THOME.

The Sox are working with a lot fewer unknowns than anyone else.

I love when sentiment overruns the obvious, both in commone sense and moves the team has made, and turns into "how do you know" arguments. :rolleyes:
First of all, I'll admit there's a lot of sentiment in me wanting Frank in a Sox uni again, but that doesn't mean it would benefit the team to not have him in a uniform next season.

But onto the best interest argument:
So if no other team offers Frank a contract, and the Sox offer him something but in a diminished role, it's not going to be in Frank's best interest to sign with the Sox?

OR if Jim Thome isn't completely recovered yet, it's not in the Sox's best interest to sign another slugger and have them as an insurance policy for eachother? I'm not saying Thome is injury prone, but he definately was injured last season. If Thome does go down, or turns out to be less effective after misisng lots of time last year, I'd rather have Frank in the lineup than Pablo Ozuna (nothing against Pablo).

How exactly do you know that Thome is completely healed? Where did you get your PhD, and when did you give him his last checkup?

I like the Thome move, it made sense, but let me know if this "common sense" you talk about tells you to not have any backup plans.

Chicken Dinner
11-28-2005, 01:34 PM
Frank's only chance at a roster spot is if PK goes elsewhere. That is abundantly clear. Now there is a shot at a coaching job, but it won't be at a high level of coin.

Beauty35thStreet
11-28-2005, 02:09 PM
I'm not down on getting Thome, but I'm down on exiting Thomas if that indeed happens. Thome isn't Micky Mantle or Willie Stargel or some legend, he's Thome. Home run or Strike out.

I know baseball's a business but I have a personal belief that when a player has played as long as they have for a team, a team should let them stay on the roster, all be it, as a backup. The "beat" reporters are making it seem as though they won't even try that for Frank. That's why I was ok with seeing Jerry Rice leave SF, because JR wanted to play and the 9ers said you can stay but bench.

If anyone is a Rowand fan, they hated to see him go also. Yeah you have to trade goods to get goods, but I'd rather see Rowand stay than Dye or Pods.

I think Thome's a good player, but I'm not convinced he's better than Thomas. I'm also not convinced that PK is going to stay. I also hated to see good defense leave (unlike Randar, I thought his defense was really good) considering that defense was a huge reason why we were successful this year.

I'm 50-50 with the trade objectively, but 100% against it sentimentallly if it exits Frank.


The Sox have been dying for a left-handed power bat for some time, and yet some people are still down on getting Jim Thome.

I don't get it. :?:

Beauty35thStreet
11-28-2005, 02:18 PM
I love when sentiment overruns the obvious, both in commone sense and moves the team has made, and turns into "how do you know" arguments. :rolleyes:

If you start using your brain, this isn't as obvious as you think it is. We're not talking a 28 y/o Thome, we're talking a 35 y/o Thome who hasn't proved anything that he can compete after injury. Thomas hasn't proved he can stay injury-free, but proved he can compete. In addition, Rowand is probably going to be above-average if not All-Star/Gold Glove for a few years. Don't give me Brian Anderson when it was possible to have both of those guys in the OF.

I'm not saying the Sox don't need a left handed AB, but I'm not convinced this is the route to go. Besides, I think the left handed bat was just a bonus, not a motivator. If KW wanted Delgado he probably would've went after him over Thome. However if PK leaves then I'm all for this Rowand for Thome deal. 7.2 million for a 1B that can I think will still put up at least 35 HRs, bat .270, and get an OBP of .350 is a bargain. For a DH? Come on. But maybe it's a luxury they can afford to take.

Chicken Dinner
11-28-2005, 02:43 PM
If you start using your brain, this isn't as obvious as you think it is. We're not talking a 28 y/o Thome, we're talking a 35 y/o Thome who hasn't proved anything that he can compete after injury. Thomas hasn't proved he can stay injury-free, but proved he can compete. In addition, Rowand is probably going to be above-average if not All-Star/Gold Glove for a few years. Don't give me Brian Anderson when it was possible to have both of those guys in the OF.

I'm not saying the Sox don't need a left handed AB, but I'm not convinced this is the route to go. Besides, I think the left handed bat was just a bonus, not a motivator. If KW wanted Delgado he probably would've went after him over Thome. However if PK leaves then I'm all for this Rowand for Thome deal. 7.2 million for a 1B that can I think will still put up at least 35 HRs, bat .270, and get an OBP of .350 is a bargain. For a DH? Come on. But maybe it's a luxury they can afford to take.

And just how long should you wait?????

daveeym
11-28-2005, 03:50 PM
First of all, I'll admit there's a lot of sentiment in me wanting Frank in a Sox uni again, but that doesn't mean it would benefit the team to not have him in a uniform next season.

But onto the best interest argument:
So if no other team offers Frank a contract, and the Sox offer him something but in a diminished role, it's not going to be in Frank's best interest to sign with the Sox?

OR if Jim Thome isn't completely recovered yet, it's not in the Sox's best interest to sign another slugger and have them as an insurance policy for eachother? I'm not saying Thome is injury prone, but he definately was injured last season. If Thome does go down, or turns out to be less effective after misisng lots of time last year, I'd rather have Frank in the lineup than Pablo Ozuna (nothing against Pablo).

How exactly do you know that Thome is completely healed? Where did you get your PhD, and when did you give him his last checkup?

I like the Thome move, it made sense, but let me know if this "common sense" you talk about tells you to not have any backup plans. I don't need a PHD or to give Thome the old "turn your head and cough" routine. The Sox have a cadre of doctors and trainers that CLEARED him for the trade. What more do YOU need? God to come down and tap you on the shoulder and personally tell you this?

A. he's signed by another team as a full time DH. B. Thomas is done. C. He's signed by the Sox cuz Konerko walks and every other last ditch effort falls through. D Thomas can't get a contract because his health is iffy and the Sox sign him to a nothing contract, let him rehab and possibly come off the bench.

There's your options for Frank. Based on his goals and the teams goals and factoring in his health. If konerko signs you're left with (D.) being the only way he's with the Sox next year or (A.) If they sign him with the intent to honor him and retire as a Sox.

daveeym
11-28-2005, 04:00 PM
If you start using your brain, this isn't as obvious as you think it is. We're not talking a 28 y/o Thome, we're talking a 35 y/o Thome who hasn't proved anything that he can compete after injury. Thomas hasn't proved he can stay injury-free, but proved he can compete. In addition, Rowand is probably going to be above-average if not All-Star/Gold Glove for a few years. Don't give me Brian Anderson when it was possible to have both of those guys in the OF.

I'm not saying the Sox don't need a left handed AB, but I'm not convinced this is the route to go. Besides, I think the left handed bat was just a bonus, not a motivator. If KW wanted Delgado he probably would've went after him over Thome. However if PK leaves then I'm all for this Rowand for Thome deal. 7.2 million for a 1B that can I think will still put up at least 35 HRs, bat .270, and get an OBP of .350 is a bargain. For a DH? Come on. But maybe it's a luxury they can afford to take. If you start using your brain you'll see that Frank hasn't competed for 3 out of the last 5 years and the 2 years he did was a shell of his former self that all you sentimentalists expect to be walking up to the plate next year. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2370

Quit acting like Thomas leaving diminishes anything he's done in the past and that Thomas PAST has any bearing on what he'll do in the future. Fact is Thome > Thomas in the present. An organization of scouts and more importantly TEAM OF DOCTORS AND TRAINERS, and a GM that just won the World Series, says so.

Banix12
11-28-2005, 04:36 PM
I think at least Thomas should take one season off from baseball, get completely healthy and see what he can do to build up his bone health and then come back completely healthy and try to make a roster in 2007.

While he hit HRs last season I think most of us can accept that he was a shell of his former self.

Beauty35thStreet
11-28-2005, 05:45 PM
If you start using your brain you'll see that Frank hasn't competed for 3 out of the last 5 years and the 2 years he did was a shell of his former self that all you sentimentalists expect to be walking up to the plate next year. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2370


Quit acting like Thomas leaving diminishes anything he's done in the past and that Thomas PAST has any bearing on what he'll do in the future. Fact is Thome > Thomas in the present. An organization of scouts and more importantly TEAM OF DOCTORS AND TRAINERS, and a GM that just won the World Series, says so.

This is a pretty good dish at me, but the point I was trying to make is that this trade isn't as "obviously good" as you think it is. I have been using my brain to analyze this trade and once again I still think you are having trouble that deals with any sort of cognition by not realizing what I was saying. Instead you decide to vent and rip me into being a sentimentalist and say Thome is better than Thomas. Putting the sentiment aside, this is the poit I was making: The Sox are trading a young good defensive player at a key position for a old, coming off injury 1B that hits for power. If PK signs, you have two 1B. I like having Thome, but I don't know if I like having him minus Rowand. If you sign PK, you will likely lose money that should be spent towards locking up the pitching staff, or at least having money to lock up the staff with. However, I'm not the GM, I don't have all the details about things and I'll give KW the benefit of the doubt.

FT can K everytime he steps to the plate as far as I'm concerned and he wouldn't. I only want the guy on the team, he doesn't have to be a starting DH. Or did you forget to read that in my last post?

IlliniSox4Life
11-28-2005, 08:11 PM
I don't need a PHD or to give Thome the old "turn your head and cough" routine. The Sox have a cadre of doctors and trainers that CLEARED him for the trade. What more do YOU need? God to come down and tap you on the shoulder and personally tell you this?

A. he's signed by another team as a full time DH. B. Thomas is done. C. He's signed by the Sox cuz Konerko walks and every other last ditch effort falls through. D Thomas can't get a contract because his health is iffy and the Sox sign him to a nothing contract, let him rehab and possibly come off the bench.

There's your options for Frank. Based on his goals and the teams goals and factoring in his health. If konerko signs you're left with (D.) being the only way he's with the Sox next year or (A.) If they sign him with the intent to honor him and retire as a Sox.

Just because Thome has been CLEARED to be traded, doesn't mean he won't get injured in the future. In fact, I'm pretty sure Frank was CLEARED to play before he came back this season, and that didn't seem to turn out too well. What happens if Thome does go down, which, even though he's been cleared, isn't that unlikely? We trade for Carl Everett again?

I seem to remember Thome having back problems. Even though he's rehabbed and their better now, that's something that could easily come back, especially on an older guy. Playing Paulie a 1B 90% of the time, Thome at DH 50% of the time and 1B 10% of the time, and Frank 50% of the time at DH could benefit both Thome and Frank. If either goes down or one gets really hot, the other gets more ABs. If a healthy Frank deserved a 10m payroll this year, why can't you pay Thome 7.5m and Frank 2.5m and expect the numbers of a healthy Frank out of the two combined?

RKMeibalane
11-28-2005, 08:16 PM
This thread sucks.

Banix12
11-28-2005, 08:55 PM
Just because Thome has been CLEARED to be traded, doesn't mean he won't get injured in the future. In fact, I'm pretty sure Frank was CLEARED to play before he came back this season, and that didn't seem to turn out too well. What happens if Thome does go down, which, even though he's been cleared, isn't that unlikely? We trade for Carl Everett again?

I seem to remember Thome having back problems. Even though he's rehabbed and their better now, that's something that could easily come back, especially on an older guy. Playing Paulie a 1B 90% of the time, Thome at DH 50% of the time and 1B 10% of the time, and Frank 50% of the time at DH could benefit both Thome and Frank. If either goes down or one gets really hot, the other gets more ABs. If a healthy Frank deserved a 10m payroll this year, why can't you pay Thome 7.5m and Frank 2.5m and expect the numbers of a healthy Frank out of the two combined?

1. You assume Frank would return as a backup when some teams desperate for power production would probably start him.
2. Players do fail physicals from time to time so it's really not as cut and dry as turn your head and cough... you're cleared.
3. Frank was cleared to play and then he got hurt again, that that is pretty definitive proof of at least one of the following. Either the trainer fudged the results or Frank's bones are growing pretty brittle. I believe the second is more likely. Herm Schneider seems like a reasonable man.
4. Judging from what Frank showed last season Jim Thome at 75% health all alone should be able to completely replace Frank's production at the health level we can reasonably expect him. Probably outperform him. Frank is a shell of his former self, he'd have to hit it to the wall to get a single these days.
5. Yes, Thome may get injured but that is a risk for any player. For Frank though it appears to be a matter of when will he get injured.
6. It is possible to play with the occasional backache, you can't play with a broken foot or ankle.

If he wants to keep going to pursue 500 HRs then fine but I can't think of any reason why he should be able to turn back time and become the Frank Thomas before the leg problems.

This feeling of disgust will pass. Baseball players rarely know when to hang up the cleats and hang on too long, often trying to reach some statistical mark. Often it just becomes sad to watch but we will always remember these players for the great players that they were. As time goes by the great times grow brighter in the mind and the bad times are pushed aside.

Hank Aaron was Brewer and we remember him as a Brave.
Willie Mays was a Met and we remember him as a Giant.
Pete Rose was a Phillie and we remember him as a Red.
Babe Ruth was a Boston Brave and he will always be the Bronx Bomber.
Frank Thomas might move on to other pastures but he will always be remembered as the greatest hitter in white sox history and soon there will be a statue at US Cellular to prove it for generations to come.

Taliesinrk
11-28-2005, 10:08 PM
I don't need a PHD or to give Thome the old "turn your head and cough" routine.

That's a good point. In fact, while I don't like the rest of your post (or at least one of them), I completely agree with this statement. I would, however, hope that you would have an M.D. in order to "give Thome the old 'turn your head and cough' routine".:cool:

RKMeibalane
11-28-2005, 11:07 PM
1. Pete Rose was a Phillie and we remember him as a Red.


I remember Rose as a joke.

Banix12
11-28-2005, 11:22 PM
I remember Rose as a joke.

Zing!

santo=dorf
11-28-2005, 11:22 PM
This thread sucks.
WSI has a tag for this





http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?s=&postid=180163

:) just having fun with you bc2k

CluelessJoe1919
11-29-2005, 04:56 PM
Its just so, for lack of a better word, distasteful. How many years did we spend hating Thome as an Jndian? Sure, we respected his ability, but he was a 'toon. And I realize that he hasn't been a rival for a while now, but you never quite forget those feelings. Unlike many who embraced the arrival of Dennis Rodman, I never did, and hated every day he was on the Bulls, even tho they won. Granted, Thome wasn't quite that hated as an Jndian, but along that line.

The topper is that I've followed Frank Thomas since the Sox drafted him with the 7th overall pick in 1989. And he's been my favorite ever Sox player for 16 years. That's a long time. Longer than Jordan or Payton's careers here in Chicago. Thome's arrival pretty much means the end of Thomas' career here, barring something really unusual that I can't foresee.

I wanted to see Frank choose the moment, rather than the other way around. And it'll be sickening to see him in other colors, should that happen. It's still just a bit of a gut punch right now.
Thome was always a class act and I can speak from experience that he's a great locker room guy and a very nice person. Rodman was key to the Bulls and always played hard.

daveeym
11-29-2005, 05:59 PM
Just because Thome has been CLEARED to be traded, doesn't mean he won't get injured in the future. In fact, I'm pretty sure Frank was CLEARED to play before he came back this season, and that didn't seem to turn out too well. What happens if Thome does go down, which, even though he's been cleared, isn't that unlikely? We trade for Carl Everett again?

I seem to remember Thome having back problems. Even though he's rehabbed and their better now, that's something that could easily come back, especially on an older guy. Playing Paulie a 1B 90% of the time, Thome at DH 50% of the time and 1B 10% of the time, and Frank 50% of the time at DH could benefit both Thome and Frank. If either goes down or one gets really hot, the other gets more ABs. If a healthy Frank deserved a 10m payroll this year, why can't you pay Thome 7.5m and Frank 2.5m and expect the numbers of a healthy Frank out of the two combined? No one's debating weather a platoon could benefit this team and the FOFT. They're saying it's not going to happen because Frank has some goals in mind and some money in mind that doesn't match up with what the Sox have in mind. Man the FOFT, or rather JLOFT (jilted lovers of frank thomas) make me wish Frank would get old yeller'ed and then it wouldn't be an issue.

daveeym
11-29-2005, 06:03 PM
FT can K everytime he steps to the plate as far as I'm concerned and he wouldn't. I only want the guy on the team, he doesn't have to be a starting DH. Or did you forget to read that in my last post? Frank doesn't want to only be on the team. FACT end of story. When it comes to his career and playing time he could care less about the fans or being a White Sox. Would he prefer to be a sox for life, sure, will he sign for the minimum and be a pinch hitter/platoon/super sub, hell no!

Nellie_Fox
11-30-2005, 01:19 AM
No one's debating weather a platoon could benefit this team and the FOFT. They're saying it's not going to happen because Frank has some goals in mind and some money in mind that doesn't match up with what the Sox have in mind. Man the FOFT, or rather JLOFT (jilted lovers of frank thomas) make me wish Frank would get old yeller'ed and then it wouldn't be an issue.This may well be the single most moronic statement I've ever seen on WSI. You wish Frank would die so that you don't have to read opinions you don't agree with. Pinhead.

By the way, it's whether a platoon could benefit..., not weather.

Frater Perdurabo
11-30-2005, 09:11 AM
This may well be the single most moronic statement I've ever seen on WSI. You wish Frank would die so that you don't have to read opinions you don't agree with. Pinhead.

By the way, it's whether a platoon could benefit..., not weather.

I agree. The post you quoted isn't even worthy of the Roadhouse. :(: