PDA

View Full Version : So now what do we do with El Douque?


lths06
11-25-2005, 10:56 AM
Now that it has pretty much been established that McCarthy will be our #5 starter, what do we do with Orlando Hernandez? I'm guessing he is probably too expensive to keep as a reliever. Maybe we trade him for extra $ to keep Pauly, or another speedy guy to put in the #2 slot under Pods?

MadetoOrta
11-25-2005, 11:04 AM
It's called insurance. Insurance against any of our starters going down with a bum shoulder. Insurance if Vizcaino or even Jenks gets hurt. After watching El Duque pitch in relief in the playoffs, I'm not convinced he wouldn't be an outstanding 7th-8th inning "hold" guy for Jenks. He's too good to just dump.

DumpJerry
11-25-2005, 11:05 AM
We keep him. Too valuable to give up (Mr. October). He does long relief and spot starting when we have long stretches without off days. He mentored Contreras this year, so his value to the team is tremendous.

veeter
11-25-2005, 11:28 AM
Over a long season, I think we've learned, everyone gets used. If he's a team player and will accept a lesser role, he's very valuable. Who knows, maybe he'd get some starts.

A. Cavatica
11-25-2005, 11:32 AM
He's too expensive to keep. I doubt he can warm up quickly enough to be a bullpen mainstay. Send him to the Marlins -- who need a leader on that pitching staff, and who have a lot of Cuban fans -- in some kind of deal.

TDog
11-25-2005, 11:33 AM
The 2005 Sox didn't have a true middle reliever most of the time. They didn't need one most of the time. Really, a team needs a guy who can pitch three or four shutout innings when it's looking at a tie score in the 10th. You wouldn't sign a guy to do that for the kind of money Hernandez is making, but the Sox don't seem to be in a position to simply dump his contract.

Hernandez appears to be the pitcher situated to be available to relieve in the early innings, spot start, come in to get out of a jam in the seventh or eighth or relieve when the game has no end in sight.

kevin57
11-25-2005, 12:00 PM
Middle Relief to start.

If one of four horsemen gets injured / crumbles before our very eyes... insurance.

seanpmurphy
11-25-2005, 12:17 PM
We keep him. Too valuable to give up (Mr. October). He does long relief and spot starting when we have long stretches without off days. He mentored Contreras this year, so his value to the team is tremendous.

Agreed. Situation during that Red Sox game was phenomenal. Just the fact that he is a huge piece of insurance in case someone goes down or McCarthy doesn't step up completely, and being like a key sprocket in the Contreras machine is good enough reason to keep him.

To those who want to dump him....what are you expecting in return?

Scotty347
11-25-2005, 12:22 PM
If one of four horsemen gets injured / crumbles before our very eyes... insurance.

ABSOLUTELY.

Let's not be fools here. How many years did we go with having no true 5th starter?

We'd be silly to expect to make it a whole season without a starter missing a stretch. If it happens, great. But don't bank on it.

Optipessimism
11-25-2005, 12:40 PM
He's too expensive to keep.

El Duque is going to be paid a little more than what Howry will get, but he is 1000X more valuable than Howry IMO. El Duque can start, fill in as a long reliever, get us out of tight jams, and he also has a ton of postseason experience. I think it is well worth it to hold on to him.

IMO if we give up anyone out of the bullpen it should be either Hermanson or Vizcaino. If Hermie can come back healthy he is very valuable to the pen, but he also would be making more than anyone else besides El Duque. Vizzy looked much better in the second half and the postseason so maybe he is on the upswing, and he makes a couple million less. With El Duque in the pen and Politte likely moving into a setup role for Jenks, it may not make a lot of sense to keep both of these guys. There is always the chance of injury, but if that happens we do have Bajenaru in AAA who could probably come up and fill in for a little while. He's never had a real shot in the Bigs, but maybe if he did have to come up he could surprise.

CallMeNuts
11-25-2005, 12:47 PM
He's too expensive to keep. I doubt he can warm up quickly enough to be a bullpen mainstay. Send him to the Marlins -- who need a leader on that pitching staff, and who have a lot of Cuban fans -- in some kind of deal.

He's also too expensive to trade. Especially to the Marlins. If you have to eat most of somebody's salary to trade him, you don't end up saving much money. I don't think any team would believe that Hernandez could be a regular member of the rotation year-round, without going on the DL more than once.

Here's the tough part: Hernandez needs a better role than long relief to stay sharp and effective. I don't want him used in lost cause games. But he's not going to replace Jenks, Cotts or Politte in their late inning roles.

So what to do? I like the idea of giving him spot starts when there are weeks without off days. But that might not be enough. Can he also be used to "piggy-back" with different starters on different days to give them a little bit of scheduled rest? Can you have him scheduled to be a spot CLOSER occasionally after Jenks has gone a couple of days in a row? Can he be a spot SET-Up man after Politte has gone a couple of days in a row? His performance against Boston led me to think that he could be a jack of all trades pitcher for us. And of course, he'd be great insurance if any of our starters needed 15 days on the DL.

BTW: I am concerned with our starters getting enough rest in 2006. Will MB, JG and FG be in the World Baseball Classic? (We can thank Fidel for not wanting JC on his staff). The WBC will probably be more work than the typical spring training.

Optipessimism
11-25-2005, 12:54 PM
Can he also be used to "piggy-back" with different starters on different days to give them a little bit of scheduled rest? Can you have him scheduled to be a spot CLOSER occasionally after Jenks has gone a couple of days in a row? Can he be a spot SET-Up man after Politte has gone a couple of days in a row? His performance against Boston led me to think that he could be a jack of all trades pitcher for us. And of course, he'd be great insurance if any of our starters needed 15 days on the DL.

The best part of all this is that we have a starting staff that can go very deep into games and a very good back end of the bullpen. We have the pitching to keep El Duque healthy. As we saw at the end of the year and in the playoffs, before he got hurt his velocity was up and he was looking like the El Duque of old. He will be able to do everything that you mentioned if necessary as long as he isn't overused, and I doubt that becomes a problem.

antitwins13
11-25-2005, 03:07 PM
There is no "o" in Duque

richb2
11-25-2005, 08:47 PM
keep him for insurance- he can be a spot starter or a fifth starter or middle relief. He is way to valuable to let go.

nccwsfan
11-25-2005, 08:58 PM
See what you can get for him this winter. If it's worth making a move do it, but if it means eating almost his entire salary keep him around for the start of the season. Like others have said it doesn't hurt to have insurance, and you never know if he'll have more trade value come July 2006.

Chisox003
11-25-2005, 09:02 PM
See what you can get for him this winter. If it's worth making a move do it, but if it means eating almost his entire salary keep him around for the start of the season. Like others have said it doesn't hurt to have insurance, and you never know if he'll have more trade value come July 2006.
Right....Shop him around a little bit, see if anything pops up, and if not, keep him

Nobody has to be reminded how huge he was in the playoffs, and like everyone has already said, who knows when someone in the rotation will go down

I know it is a big contract for a middle relief guy, but I think its well worth it for the Duke

Daver
11-25-2005, 09:02 PM
Pitching is the most valuable commodity in all of baseball, you do not trade it if you expect to contend, you stockpile it.

JorgeFabregas
11-25-2005, 09:36 PM
You will end up paying some of his salary if you trade him...and he has limited trade value to begin with. He's more valuable as a reliever and back-up plan than as trade bait. He might have more value mid-season if he has a good first half.

soxfanreggie
11-25-2005, 09:40 PM
If he's going to cost you money one way or another...why not keep him. I don't think you'll see him on the team past this year unless he has a great season, but let's see how he does. He is too expensive unless he signs a much lower deal after this offseason. I don't think he needs to worry about money though, and I don't think that anybody will be paying him a great deal after this year. However, if he has a good season, the Yanks or BoSox could ante up big for him.

johnny_mostil
11-25-2005, 09:48 PM
Pitching is the most valuable commodity in all of baseball, you do not trade it if you expect to contend, you stockpile it.

You stockpile HEALTHY pitchers with proven arms that can tolerate regular pitching roles. You don't overvalue it in A ball with pitchers who have 200 innings in pro ball in their lives, and I have no problem with parting with them.

johnny_mostil
11-25-2005, 09:48 PM
There is no "o" in Duque

But, often, there is a K!

vafan
11-25-2005, 10:12 PM
Add my name to those voting for KEEP HIM!!

1. Anyone who can keep Jose Contreras on track is worth his weight in gold.
2. You always need at least 6 starters to make it through a long season.
3. He's proven he can pitch pretty well in relief.
4. The Sox had no true long reliever last year. El Duque can do that. He could do middle relief. And he could close.

Fake Chet Lemon
11-25-2005, 10:19 PM
You guys really think keeping a guy making that much money around for insurance or for middle relief is wise? If you do, when Kenny can't make a deal at the trading deadline because the payroll is maxed don't complain.

Kenny is dangerous when flexible. Having $4M middle relievers won't give him much wiggle room. Hermanson is our insurance starter anyway, I think Williams said that when we signed him. You HAVE TO factor money into all these decisions.

buehrle4cy05
11-25-2005, 10:47 PM
I definetly keep El Duque. As Daver said,
Pitching is the most valuable commodity in all of baseball, you do not trade it if you expect to contend, you stockpile it.

Bingo.:cool:

The Deacon
11-25-2005, 10:52 PM
I definetly keep El Duque. As Daver said,


Bingo.:cool:

Since we'll have to pay his contract if he stays or is traded, they'll probably keep him. They'll evalute him and the rest of the team mid-season, he could be traded at the All Star break for more pressing needs.
At the same time, if we start him he takes away from McCarthy and if he is in the 'pen someone currently in the 'pen has to go.

Palehose13
11-25-2005, 10:59 PM
Why do some people think that Hernandez had anything to do with Contreras' tunr around? They were together in NY and it didn't seem to make a difference then. My thoughts are:

1. Don Cooper
2. Reunited with his family.
3. Being out of NY.

Frater Perdurabo
11-25-2005, 11:02 PM
Keep him.

He can start in the event of another starter suffering an injury or even just "tired arm."

He can pitch in long/middle relief.

He's signed for one more year. What's not to like?

dlee120
11-25-2005, 11:12 PM
Add my name to those voting for KEEP HIM!!

1. Anyone who can keep Jose Contreras on track is worth his weight in gold.
2. You always need at least 6 starters to make it through a long season.
3. He's proven he can pitch pretty well in relief.
4. The Sox had no true long reliever last year. El Duque can do that. He could do middle relief. And he could close.


5. He is phenomenal in the postseason!

Keep him!

Man Soo Lee
11-25-2005, 11:42 PM
Why do some people think that Hernandez had anything to do with Contreras' tunr around? They were together in NY and it didn't seem to make a difference then. My thoughts are:

1. Don Cooper
2. Reunited with his family.
3. Being out of NY.

I don't know how much credit Hernandez deserves for helping Contreras, but they weren't together long in New York. El Duque went to Montreal in the Colon three-way trade in 2003 and spent the whole year on the DL. He returned to the Yankees in 2004, but spent the first few months rehabbing in Tampa and the minors before joining the team in July. Contreras was traded to the Sox a few weeks later.

lostletters
11-26-2005, 02:33 AM
Middle relief/Insurance starter/extra pitching coach.

He was worth the money. The performance in boston was worth every penny of his two year salary, on top of mentoring JC. The Cuban has a place on the Sox even if the place is just as a backup starter or seldom used reliever. He is a big part of the reason the Sox are world champs. Let him retire and become our second pitching coach :D .

Banix12
11-26-2005, 03:13 AM
I don't know how much credit Hernandez deserves for helping Contreras, but they weren't together long in New York. El Duque went to Montreal in the Colon three-way trade in 2003 and spent the whole year on the DL. He returned to the Yankees in 2004, but spent the first few months rehabbing in Tampa and the minors before joining the team in July. Contreras was traded to the Sox a few weeks later.

Very True. I would say though that El Duque has to get some credit for rebuilding his confidence this season. All I have heard all season is that El Duque was one of the people who pulled him aside to help him regain the form he showed in Cuba. I believe even Contreras to a point credits El Duque as one of the people who rebuilt his confidence in his fastball.

I decided to do a search on this and I found this quote from Contreras after a 5-4 10 inning win over Cleveland...

But the Sox rallied to tie the game with three runs in the fourth, and Hernandez kept Contreras focused in the dugout with advice.

"It helps a lot," Contreras said with Cora interpreting. "Sometimes I get lost. Even though everyone helps, El Duque knows me from 12 years ago in Cuba, so he knows what I'm all about and can help me the most."

link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050413soxgamer,1,3761.story?coll=cs-whitesox-navigation)

For those of you who think he is too expensive to keep, that's a matter for Kenny to decide. I would say i like him as a swingman and I think he would be less likely to tire at the same rate he seemed to as a full time starter. it will be an adjustment but I think he has shown he can adjust. His different arm angles would be deadly coming out of the bullpen to face a couple hitters.

Look for trades but if nothing serious materializes keeping him shouldn't be a problem.

caulfield12
11-26-2005, 08:11 AM
Very True. I would say though that El Duque has to get some credit for rebuilding his confidence this season. All I have heard all season is that El Duque was one of the people who pulled him aside to help him regain the form he showed in Cuba. I believe even Contreras to a point credits El Duque as one of the people who rebuilt his confidence in his fastball.

I decided to do a search on this and I found this quote from Contreras after a 5-4 10 inning win over Cleveland...



For those of you who think he is too expensive to keep, that's a matter for Kenny to decide. I would say i like him as a swingman and I think he would be less likely to tire at the same rate he seemed to as a full time starter. it will be an adjustment but I think he has shown he can adjust. His different arm angles would be deadly coming out of the bullpen to face a couple hitters.

Look for trades but if nothing serious materializes keeping him shouldn't be a problem.

Only if JR says he has to be dealt to make room for the PK-DH payroll slot.

We still have a little flexibility there, we won´t resign Timo and we could trade Harris or Marte.

Keep in mind, we might have to get another Blum-Mueller-Cirillo-H.Perry type as back-up or insurance for Crede´s health.

SOXSINCE'70
11-26-2005, 08:28 AM
I agree with the majority of the posters in this thread.The Sox need
El Duque as a long man.He's also good insurance in case someone gets
hurt.His post season experience alone is reason enough not to discard
him.He can spot start when the starters' arms reach that dead arm period
as well.I can't see getting rid of a pitcher who escaped bases loaded
jams in game 3 of the ALDS and WS.He's a weapon out of the 'Pen,IMHO.

Banix12
11-26-2005, 12:04 PM
Only if JR says he has to be dealt to make room for the PK-DH payroll slot.

We still have a little flexibility there, we won´t resign Timo and we could trade Harris or Marte.

Keep in mind, we might have to get another Blum-Mueller-Cirillo-H.Perry type as back-up or insurance for Crede´s health.

The payroll won't be made or broken on a contract to a utility man. Actually I think Ozuna made great strides for being a backup 3rd baseman. his first stint earlier in the season was rough but when Crede went down with the finger injury late in the season i thought Ozuna filled in admirably. I don't think that need is that critical.

caulfield12
11-26-2005, 12:11 PM
The payroll won't be made or broken on a contract to a utility man. Actually I think Ozuna made great strides for being a backup 3rd baseman. his first stint earlier in the season was rough but when Crede went down with the finger injury late in the season i thought Ozuna filled in admirably. I don't think that need is that critical.

As noted somewhere else, its okay if Crede can play in 100-120 games. If he misses one-half the season, I do not think you can survive offensively with Ozuna hitting 8th, 9th or 2nd. Maybe I will be proved wrong. I love his versatility as a role player, but our offense will have a lot of pressure on it with no Konerko and if Brian Anderson or Owens are starting. Dont see that happening, but it is possible.

A. Cavatica
11-26-2005, 01:24 PM
Other posters may be right that we'd have to send cash along to get some other team to take him. If that's the case, we might as well keep him as a long man. But his salary -- what is it, $4M? -- is reasonable for a starter on some team that has playoff dreams, needs a leader, and can manage his workload to keep him fresh for September. In other words, a team like we were last year. I still think he'll be moved.

caulfield12
11-26-2005, 02:23 PM
Other posters may be right that we'd have to send cash along to get some other team to take him. If that's the case, we might as well keep him as a long man. But his salary -- what is it, $4M? -- is reasonable for a starter on some team that has playoff dreams, needs a leader, and can manage his workload to keep him fresh for September. In other words, a team like we were last year. I still think he'll be moved.

I´m positive it´s at least $4.5 million, and it probably is $5 million, because I think he met his incentives for innings pitched this season.

Banix12
11-26-2005, 03:53 PM
As noted somewhere else, its okay if Crede can play in 100-120 games. If he misses one-half the season, I do not think you can survive offensively with Ozuna hitting 8th, 9th or 2nd. Maybe I will be proved wrong. I love his versatility as a role player, but our offense will have a lot of pressure on it with no Konerko and if Brian Anderson or Owens are starting. Dont see that happening, but it is possible.

If that happens the sox can likely trade for a 3rd baseman. I don't think bringing in a second starting 3rd baseman, like a Bill Mueller, is really that necessary (I also don't think he would sign here knowing he would be a backup). Also,guys like Blum, Cirillo and Perry are pretty much available year round for next to nothing. Crede's back will likely heal over the offseason and I think most people would full expect him to play at least 100-120 games.

Anyway, my comment was that the payroll won't be broken by a backup 3rd baseman or utility man, and it won't. Most of the guys you suggested can be had for under $1 million dollars. If they are willing to let Ben Davis rot at AAA earning over $1 million, then paying $600,000 grand to Cirillio soesn't seem like it would be much of an issue.

joepoe
11-26-2005, 09:19 PM
See what you can get for him this winter. If it's worth making a move do it, but if it means eating almost his entire salary keep him around for the start of the season. Like others have said it doesn't hurt to have insurance, and you never know if he'll have more trade value come July 2006.

Keep Duque if he has ANY skills left whatsoever. Contreras is better with him. Plus, he keeps other stiffs off the roster.

CluelessJoe1919
11-27-2005, 12:05 AM
Now that it has pretty much been established that McCarthy will be our #5 starter, what do we do with Orlando Hernandez? I'm guessing he is probably too expensive to keep as a reliever. Maybe we trade him for extra $ to keep Pauly, or another speedy guy to put in the #2 slot under Pods?
I don't care if he costs $4 million, he's a great insurance policy in both the bullpen and in the starting rotation, should one of the starters go down...
He's also got that nutty mentality that could make him a good closer, should Jenks or Hermanson not get the job done next year...
You don't want to make too many changes from a championship team.
I highly doubt el Duque could bring much in return for him...

gowhitesox
11-27-2005, 02:12 AM
I don't care if he costs $4 million, he's a great insurance policy in both the bullpen and in the starting rotation, should one of the starters go down...
He's also got that nutty mentality that could make him a good closer, should Jenks or Hermanson not get the job done next year...
You don't want to make too many changes from a championship team.
I highly doubt el Duque could bring much in return for him...

Let's hope Kenny decides to keep him, his experience would be a big help just like 2005. He is getting up there in years as far as baseball is concerned but he can still pitch. I don't very much if Kenny will make many more changes except perhaps picking up a guy or two off waivers like he did with Bobby Jenks.

MHOUSE
11-27-2005, 02:20 AM
I'll just concur that El Duque is too good of a pitcher and possibly season-saving insurance to just deal away for next to nothing. Even if he only pitches in 1 or 2 games a week, I think he'll remain sharp. He's used to pitching every 5 days, so give him that out of the bullpen. I think the reduced innings will help him stay healthy throughout the season. He doesn't need to go every couple days (like Vizcaino) to be effective.

If McCarthy isn't ready to make 32 starts and go through the August/September rookie slump then we have El Duque. We also had Contreras healthy all year which didn't happen either of his first two years. I won't even mention the possibility of one of the other three going down just to keep those vibes out of the air...