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View Full Version : Ordonez with a healthy Thomas


MattSharp
12-17-2001, 11:34 PM
I was just thinking about how much Konkero, Lee, and Ordonez can benefit with a healthly Frank Thomas. If he plays again like he did in 2000, Ordonez's numbers should go up even more. But who hits behing Mags? I would say Lee, which makes Konerko the best No. 6 hitter in baseball.

RedPinStripes
12-18-2001, 02:09 AM
Lee can play fast pitch with a rubber ball at Armour Sqare park for all I care. I want his ass out a here.

RichH55
12-18-2001, 10:19 AM
How old is Lee 24/25? And you are talking about him likes he's Royce. He had a bad 2nd half no doubt....but impressive first half numbers(the more important half IMO). He will never be a gold glover, but I think his blantant 2nd half problems will revert to more of that scary 1st half, where he makes the play but gives you a heart attack doing it. He hasn't been in the outfield that long, and you can afford to keep a big bat in Left that might not be Barry Bonds in his prime with the glove.

:caballo
Where's the Love?!? If I hit ya 30 HRs this year can we barbeque?

RichH55
12-18-2001, 10:22 AM
Another thing about Lee is that his hitting numbers should go out regardless of his fielding. That means you have leverage and options when Borchard is ready or isn't ready. A lot of teams could use a power hitting OF type and if hes young that only helps his value. He was mentioned in the same breath as Buerhle in the Giles rumors, so he has a lot to offer....Mark me down as someone who wants to see Lee out there almost every day

:caballo
.305 32 HR 106 RBI
Barbeque Time?

AsInWreck
12-18-2001, 01:10 PM
I agree you can sometimes afford a big bat whose defense is suspect in left, but with the sox you have the same situation in right and only a pretty
good cf(w/ the glove). Maggs is the most overrated of defensively in the league, he has the same tendency as lee to run around like a chicken w/ its head cut off, and i'd rather see maggs in left w/ a bona fide rf(hopefully borchard will fit the bill)- I say trade Lee for either a good cf or
starting pitcher, or make him a dh(we know that won't happen for a while, though)
--- i agree w/ orig thread though that thomas
will definitely improve the hitters around him, even if he doesn't return to form, he'll still be an intimidating force who takes a lot of pitches

Huisj
12-18-2001, 02:24 PM
I want Lee to be out in LF every day next season. He's a talented hitter--look at his rookie and second years, and last year's first half stats. Ok, he had one bad half, that doesn't ruin a career at all. And from what I can see, he was hardly worse last year than erstad, and look what the sox were willing to give up for him! I say stick with him, don't just judge him on one half of a season. And call me crazy, but for all his defensive struggles, he seems to have a pretty good arm for a left fielder--he seemed to throw out a lot of guys last year.

RedPinStripes
12-18-2001, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
I want Lee to be out in LF every day next season. He's a talented hitter--look at his rookie and second years, and last year's first half stats. Ok, he had one bad half, that doesn't ruin a career at all. And from what I can see, he was hardly worse last year than erstad, and look what the sox were willing to give up for him! I say stick with him, don't just judge him on one half of a season. And call me crazy, but for all his defensive struggles, he seems to have a pretty good arm for a left fielder--he seemed to throw out a lot of guys last year.


He has a terrible arm. Maggs threw out a lot of runners not lee. Lee is not that skilled of a hitter either. They stopped throwing him high and inside. He cannot hit a ball to rf if he has to adjust. He still tries to pull outside pitches and grounds out. That was his second half if you watched closly.

Ritch:

Carlos did not hit 30hr. Konerko did. Liefer had half the ab's and wasn't far from lee. I'm almost positive lee hit 24 and Liefer hit 19.
If we are going to put a bad fielder in LF, i'd rather see Liefer or Maggs. The best thing we can do is have Rowand or maggs there unless we get a better defensive player. When Jose the hack is at SS or 3b, it's a bad idea to have a crappy LF behind him.

RichH55
12-18-2001, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes



He has a terrible arm. Maggs threw out a lot of runners not lee. Lee is not that skilled of a hitter either. They stopped throwing him high and inside. He cannot hit a ball to rf if he has to adjust. He still tries to pull outside pitches and grounds out. That was his second half if you watched closly.

Ritch:

Carlos did not hit 30hr. Konerko did. Liefer had half the ab's and wasn't far from lee. I'm almost positive lee hit 24 and Liefer hit 19.
If we are going to put a bad fielder in LF, i'd rather see Liefer or Maggs. The best thing we can do is have Rowand or maggs there unless we get a better defensive player. When Jose the hack is at SS or 3b, it's a bad idea to have a crappy LF behind him.

I get the feeling you are a defense first, 2nd, 3rd, and last kind of guy fair enough. I'm not that sold on Manos being a bad fielder..the error stat isn't that great, kind of like plus/minus in hockey...I will try and watch as many games as I can this year and point out when Clayton misses balls due to range, and whenever Manos makes an error what the effect of it is...as not all errors are the same....calling Jose a hack is both bull and not really a relevant argument...and my stats for Carlos were for this upcoming year...the barbeque is my stakes since you are definately not a Lee guy...I honestly don't think RF or LF are that important defensively...akin to 1B in that way....Kevin Mitchell won an MVP and I don't think he was better than Lee defensively

RichH55
12-18-2001, 05:03 PM
And for the Love of God its Rich! Not Ritch :) I'll just chalk it up to :gulp: as you also called Manos a hack....How good do you want your outfielders to be defensively? Mags is not a problem in that manner(though Borchard's arm would look nice there)....and my guess is that the difference between the greatest LW of all-time and a guy like Lee is one or two ballgames a year, whereas Carlos's hitting and especially since it should get better all things considered is worth more than that. SB and Defense aren't what they used to be....and Defense in LW and RW was never paramount either(except for some exceptions due to ballparks)...I wager that anytime we use an all defense lineup over hitting we are leaving ourselves at a disadvantage

RedPinStripes
12-18-2001, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by RichH55


I get the feeling you are a defense first, 2nd, 3rd, and last kind of guy fair enough. I'm not that sold on Manos being a bad fielder..the error stat isn't that great, kind of like plus/minus in hockey...I will try and watch as many games as I can this year and point out when Clayton misses balls due to range, and whenever Manos makes an error what the effect of it is...as not all errors are the same....calling Jose a hack is both bull and not really a relevant argument...and my stats for Carlos were for this upcoming year...the barbeque is my stakes since you are definately not a Lee guy...I honestly don't think RF or LF are that important defensively...akin to 1B in that way....Kevin Mitchell won an MVP and I don't think he was better than Lee defensively


Eventhough Jose is a hack, I'd still rather have him at SS then Clayton because I don't want Clayton on the team. Yes I am big on defense. Solid defense add up to fundamental baseball. It's bad enough to have valentine making 35+ errors a season. I can deal with Jose, not more then 1 guy who is terrible on defense though.

RichH55
12-18-2001, 05:44 PM
What is this the dead ball era? You don't need a team full of defensive specialists out there....especially in LF...I don't happen to think that Manos is not bad defensively, but we can simply agree to disagree there. Who is the alternative to Lee in LF? If you play both Rowand and Singleton you are in trouble, because with Clayton still here and whatever stiff we put behind the plate thats 5 guys that any big league team would LOVE to pitch too..and that even assumes a decent improvement from Rowand...I think Lee is going to show you show things this year, he will never win a gold glove, but the rank of gold glove LF on a championship team is right above position player to pitch in blow-outs and right below Knuckle-ball Pitcher...Didn't the Yankees use Knoblauch in LF last year? And for some reason I cant remember the Diamondbacks guy(reggie sanders?).....Who in your mind are the 5 best defensive LFs out there?


:cleo
Carlos Lee? .306 32 HRs 105 RBI for the coming year




Thats good enough to be my starting LF

MattSharp
12-18-2001, 06:00 PM
The biggest problem is just an excecss of players. I think unless Borchard wows everyone in ST, then he should spend most of the year at AAA. That way there isnt an overflow of OFs. With Thomas back (hopefully), Lee can play left all year, with Rowand in CF and Ordonez in right. Then when Borchard is ready you can make adjustments.

As for SS. Clayton finally came around towards the end of the year. I still don't think hes worth the money, but despite Jose's power hes no ta great hitter. Especially in the No. 2 slot.

I personally think taht if Lee starts hitting they should switch it up and put Lee second and Jose 6th or 9th. That's kinda far fetched though.

Huisj
12-18-2001, 09:01 PM
He has a terrible arm. Maggs threw out a lot of runners not lee.

Well, I did some research to assure myself that I wasn't actually crazy, and here's what I found. Last year Lee had 9 assists, and Ordonez had 11. In 2000, Lee had 10 assists, and Ordonez had 12. Now those are not very great differences, and they seem even less when you consider that players are less likely to run on left fielders than on right fielders . . . anyways, just for sake of comparison, I looked up a few other random left fielders--Cliff Floyd had 8 assists, Barry Bonds had 9, Jacque Jones had 8, Bobby Higginson had 8, and Garrett Anderson had 9. I know assists are not the only thing that measure how good one's arm is, but it has something to do with it at least, and the stats suggest that Lee's arm isn't too bad compared to other left fielders and to Ordonez.

Just for another comparison, I looked up some stats for some other right fielders too--Bob Abreu had 11 assists last year, Burnitz had 14, Dye had 13, Lawton had 3 , Larry Walker had 8, Vladimir Guerrero had 15, Sosa had 8, and the amazing Ichiro had 8. anyways, just thought I'd throw out some numbers to munch on.

RichH55
12-18-2001, 10:07 PM
IIRC Carlos was the BA choice for strongest infield arm in are system a couple of years back....granted it was at 3b...who knows with my memory though

MattSharp
12-18-2001, 10:16 PM
I was thikning about that, why can't Carlos play 3B anymore? Could you picture it, if he moved to 3B, Ordonez to left, Borchard in RF? Kick ass Lineup!!!!!

RichH55
12-18-2001, 10:20 PM
Well when they made the move Crede was even more highly regarded, and I'm guessing Carlos would have had a hard time adjusting to the next level of the hot corner...though at the time the move puzzled me as well as 3B was a need(I think Norton was still manning the position)...Even Steven Norton...Hit a Homerun in te first inning, make 2 errors in the 2nd....still better than when Snopek was there.......though of all the prospects Crede does scare me, yet I push for him to get playing time...go figure :?:

Jerry_Manuel
12-18-2001, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Even Steven Norton...Hit a Homerun in te first inning, make 2 errors in the 2nd....

*cough* Greg not Steven *cough*

Lee is way to big to be playing 3rd base.

RichH55
12-18-2001, 10:28 PM
I know Jerry....perhaps "Even Steven" Norton would work better? I just meant that everytime he did something well he would do something terrible to offset that...Even Steven....Wasn't Norton the guy the Sun-Times screwed up his first name in their fan report card angle the one year? Kind of ironic

RichH55
12-18-2001, 10:32 PM
How big is Glaus out in Anaheim? And Matt Williams is a big boy if I recall...key to 3B is hands and reflectises(sic)...why you can put a bigger guy there than at SS usually...maybe I thinking of 16 inch softball where I play because i have Royce like defensive skills....I can pick anything I get to, I just don't get to everything the other SS can


:hitless
I could probably have .400 OBP in 16 inch!