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View Full Version : Thoughts on Thome Trade From Neutral Site


Brian26
11-23-2005, 09:04 PM
Here are unedited quotes from a baseball card site I look at occassionally. These individual quotes are from different posters. I consider this a neutral take on the trade, although I don't necessarily agree with them. It's interesting nonetheless:

Jeez... Pat Gillick's first trade just looks wonderful.

I hate this team.

We get to kick in $24 MILLION TOO!

Has firepatgillick.com been taken yet?


Gets better as there are rumors there are two of the Sox best pitching prospects included! Gio Gonzalez is one of them-just a rumor


Wow, they get Haigwood too?



Wow, what the hell are the White Sox thinking?


The White Sox better pray to God Thome is 100%


you should be the white sox just screwed themselves...... really stupid trade on their part...

is firekenwilliams.com taken? thats a horrible deal for the sox.


I doubt the Phillies will get the 2 prospects but you can bet the White Sox were also thinking about Thome possibly going to the Twins if they don't make the trade! The premptive strike theory. That is alot of cash the Phil's are throwing in on the deal.

I didn't even hear about Gio. That's was a good move by the Phils. What were the Sox thinking?

Stupid part on the White Sox. Losing a good outfielder.

Good part for the Phillies. Ryan Howard now starting at 1st base.

This trade certainly changes the look of the Phillies BA Top 10 prospects chart. I doubt htey'll re-do it though.

The White Sox are stupid to do this trade... both Haigwood and G.Gonzalez are on the fast track to the bigs with their talent.

JB98
11-23-2005, 09:07 PM
It's funny how people fall in love with prospects. I trust Randar's opinion most on our minor-leaguers, and he posted the other day that he'd give up Gio in a second to get Delgado. There's serious questions about Gio's durability.

Ol' No. 2
11-23-2005, 09:10 PM
It's funny how people fall in love with prospects. I trust Randar's opinion most on our minor-leaguers, and he posted the other day that he'd give up Gio in a second to get Delgado. There's serious questions about Gio's durability.Look at the prospects the Sox have traded away over the last few years. Any All-Stars in there? How can one NOT conclude that the Sox scouts know their players? Given that track record, I have to believe they've made a pretty good evaluation and there are good reasons they let these guys go.

SoxFan76
11-23-2005, 09:11 PM
The only people who should worry about prospects are fans of ****ty teams. The Sox are living in the now. Right now Gio and Haigwood cannot help this team. RIGHT NOW.

edit: Poor word choice. To Randar and company, you know what I mean, right? ....right? :smile:

PAPChiSox729
11-23-2005, 09:12 PM
It's funny how people fall in love with prospects. I trust Randar's opinion most on our minor-leaguers, and he posted the other day that he'd give up Gio in a second to get Delgado. There's serious questions about Gio's durability.

I agree. And after this past season, KW has gained my trust. I am sure that he knew what he was getting into when he made this deal. I've been a Gio fan since we drafted him. But getting a Jim Thome is just too good to pass up.

DumpJerry
11-23-2005, 09:12 PM
It seems most of the posters thought it was bad for us because of the prospects we were giving up. Since we did not lose any prospects, what do they think now? Nobody seemed to comment on the depth of the Sox' outfield, perhaps they were too focused on the pitchers to notice that Brian Anderson is probably pretty close to Rowand in skills.

EDIT: I just noticed that we gave up Haigood and Gonzalez. Hmmm......let us pray...

Brian26
11-23-2005, 09:12 PM
Canelis hates the trade unless the Sox replace ARow with Pierre.

Phil Rogers doesn't like the fact they gave up those two minor leaguers.

FWIW.

IlliniSox4Life
11-23-2005, 09:14 PM
IF we didn't have a ton of outfielders waiting to be called up, these guys might be right, but basically this boils down to Anderson being able to replace Rowand. Even IF defensively he isn't quite as good, he still comes close (although a lot of people say he's better), and even IF offensively he doesn't put up the numbers Rowand did (which weren't good, but a rookie can struggle), we STILL replace Carl Everett with Jim Thome, which is a bigger jump up than Rowand to Anderson is down (if it is down). Prospects are just that, prospects. If there's no room for them on the team, they can't play.

And the guy who said firekenwilliams.com? was that in teal? Ken Williams is hands down the best GM in baseball right now. He single handidly brought Chicago its first World Series in 88 years, and we should fire him? Haha

Ol' No. 2
11-23-2005, 09:16 PM
Canelis hates the trade unless the Sox replace ARow with Pierre.

Phil Rogers doesn't like the fact they gave up those two minor leaguers.

FWIW.Pfft. Find me someone who didn't pick the Sox to finish 4th last year and tell me what HE thinks of this trade.

MRKARNO
11-23-2005, 09:17 PM
The funniest part of some of the criticism of the trade is that it is coming from the same people that believe in the mantras of "There is no such thing as a pitching prospect" and that left-handed pitching prospects out of high school are the least reliable prospects you can have. Like the Lee for Podsednik trade, it needs to be viewed in context. When you realize that there doesnt figure to be such a downgrade in CF and that Thome is reputedly pretty healthy and that Konerko can still fit in the budget with relative ease, the trade looks great. A healthy Thome and the Konerko of 2004/2005 in the middle of the order would mean very good things for this team.

Tragg
11-23-2005, 09:19 PM
If I wasn't a Sox fan, I'd think it was a boneheaded trade. Beckett a cheap player in his prime goes for 2 prospects; Delgado, a superior hitter, goes for 2 prospects. Old and off an injury Thome goes for 2 prospects plus a sharp fielding CF from the world champs. And we're still playing him 8 mill a year.

But, like the Lee trade, it's all about the dollars. Let's see what he does with the money he has to play with. Konerko/Thome seems an odd combination for Ozzie. If he's a replacement for Konerko, we just saved $5 million. We've given up enough talent for my tastees - let's go out and buy a 3 hitter and Ozzie's speed guy.

Williams is not a value-driven GM - he gets what he wants, but usually pays top price. It's just the way it is. He also doesn't let his prospects rot on the vine, unlike many GMs. So far, his methods, have gotten us a ring.

soxwon
11-23-2005, 09:20 PM
It's funny how people fall in love with prospects. I trust Randar's opinion most on our minor-leaguers, and he posted the other day that he'd give up Gio in a second to get Delgado. There's serious questions about Gio's durability.


am i missing something?
i have never heard of gio or hagwood mentioned on these boards before, or even mentioned elsewhere as top sox prospects.
what are these guys stats?

JB98
11-23-2005, 09:20 PM
All these people are bitching about the prospects we gave up. What is Brian Anderson? Chop liver? Funny that they seem to be clueless about Anderson.

johnny_mostil
11-23-2005, 09:21 PM
It's funny how people fall in love with prospects. (...) There's serious questions about Gio's durability.

Gio is 5'11, weighs 180 pounds, is a year out of high school, and has missed starts due to injuries. He won't pitch in the majors for several years, if at all.

ShoelessJoeS
11-23-2005, 09:23 PM
Pfft. Find me someone who didn't pick the Sox to finish 4th last year and tell me what HE thinks of this trade.
Exactly, and with this trade, I'm sure the "experts" will pick the Indians to win the Central in 06....but then again, what's our motto....WE DONT CARE!

JB98
11-23-2005, 09:27 PM
Gio is 5'11, weighs 180 pounds, is a year out of high school, and has missed starts due to injuries. He won't pitch in the majors for several years, if at all.

And if we play our cards right, we'll have Buerhle, Garland and BMac at the head of our rotation for the next several years. We are a pitching-rich organization. We can afford to part with a couple of pitching prospects.

ilsox7
11-23-2005, 09:29 PM
And if we play our cards right, we'll have Buerhle, Garland and BMac at the head of our rotation for the next several years. We are a pitching-rich organization. We can afford to part with a couple of pitching prospects.

FG is also signed for 2 more years. And JC strikes me as the type of guy who knows he is set for life with money, is happy his family is finally here, and owes a lot to the Sox for having faith in him. Given his age, if the production is there again this year, I would not be surprised if he gave the Sox a nice discount on a 3 year deal. We have lots and lots of pitching and that is a great problem to have.

johnny_mostil
11-23-2005, 09:32 PM
All these people are bitching about the prospects we gave up. What is Brian Anderson? Chop liver? Funny that they seem to be clueless about Anderson.

JB98, remember, Kenny Williams is in idiot... or, well, he played one in Moneyball. There will be piling on because the White Sox were "supposed to" lose 90 games in 2005, not win the World Series. They have to stumble to make the Universe right again.

Jjav829
11-23-2005, 09:52 PM
is firekenwilliams.com taken? thats a horrible deal for the sox.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Yeah, let's fire the GM of the World Champs. :rolleyes:

Kenny is becoming Rodney Dangerfield. He wins a World Series and there are still idiots who doubt his ability as a GM.

But then again KW has traded away so much talent over the years. I mean look at these studs. You can fill an All-Star team with these guys: Aaron Miles, Gary Glover, Josh Fogg, Jeff Liefer, Rocky Biddle, D'Angelo Jimenez, Mike Morse, Jon Rauch, etc. What a list of talent.

:worship: :KW

ilsox7
11-23-2005, 09:53 PM
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Yeah, let's fire the GM of the World Champs. :rolleyes:

Kenny is becoming Rodney Dangerfield. He wins a World Series and there are still idiots who doubt his ability as a GM.

But then again KW has traded away so much talent over the years. I mean look at these studs. You can fill an All-Star team with these guys: Aaron Miles, Gary Glover, Josh Fogg, Jeff Liefer, Rocky Biddle, D'Angelo Jimenez, Mike Morse, Jon Rauch, etc. What a list of talent.

:worship: :KW


I just can't wait for Baseball Prospectus to come out against this trade. Then I'll know for certain we got the better end of the deal.

DaleJRFan
11-23-2005, 09:57 PM
bookmark this thread so in September, after Thome goes 286/42/137, we all have a laugh.

Jjav829
11-23-2005, 10:01 PM
If I wasn't a Sox fan, I'd think it was a boneheaded trade. Beckett a cheap player in his prime goes for 2 prospects; Delgado, a superior hitter, goes for 2 prospects. Old and off an injury Thome goes for 2 prospects plus a sharp fielding CF from the world champs. And we're still playing him 8 mill a year.

But, like the Lee trade, it's all about the dollars. Let's see what he does with the money he has to play with. Konerko/Thome seems an odd combination for Ozzie. If he's a replacement for Konerko, we just saved $5 million. We've given up enough talent for my tastees - let's go out and buy a 3 hitter and Ozzie's speed guy.

Williams is not a value-driven GM - he gets what he wants, but usually pays top price. It's just the way it is. He also doesn't let his prospects rot on the vine, unlike many GMs. So far, his methods, have gotten us a ring.

Once again, it all has to do with money. The Sox asked the Phillies to eat half of Thome's remaining salary. The more money the Sox asked the Phillies to eat, the more the Sox had to give up.

The Marlins only ate $7 million of what is left on Delgado's contract. The Red Sox took on all of Lowell's contract. The quality of prospects is much different. The Red Sox gave up Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez. Those two are much better than what we gave up. The Mets gave up their top pitching prospect in Yusmeiro Petit.

Tragg
11-23-2005, 10:27 PM
Once again, it all has to do with money. The Sox asked the Phillies to eat half of Thome's remaining salary. The more money the Sox asked the Phillies to eat, the more the Sox had to give up.

The Marlins only ate $7 million of what is left on Delgado's contract. The Red Sox took on all of Lowell's contract. The quality of prospects is much different. The Red Sox gave up Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez. Those two are much better than what we gave up. The Mets gave up their top pitching prospect in Yusmeiro Petit.

I agree with that - I believe that's what I said above. What makes or breaks this trade in my mind is what we do with the money. For, if this is it (and I know it isn't) we are down around $5 mill in payroll from last year and down around 10 mill had we kept Rowand and signed Konerko (assuming Konerko gets $13 mill). Couple that with the alleged $5-$10 mill payroll bump, Kenny has another $10-$15 mill to spend.
If we're confident in Thome, I'm not sure I wouldn't spend that money on a 3 hitter and something else besides Konerko, and keep Frank. Isn't Thome a strange player to add, if you plan on keeping Konerko?
We'll see what happens.

Flight #24
11-23-2005, 10:32 PM
Isn't Thome a strange player to add, if you plan on keeping Konerko?
We'll see what happens.

Not if you're moving forward as if Frank's not going to be available, which is unfortunately the position the Sox have to be in. Thome=DH.

Tragg
11-23-2005, 10:37 PM
Not if you're moving forward as if Frank's not going to be available, which is unfortunately the position the Sox have to be in. Thome=DH.
I was thinking more along the lines of a classic 3 hitter; Thome hits homers, walks, but strikes out a lot. Thome is more of a 4/5 it seems to me as is Konerko. And we lose a little lineup balance, if Anderson doesn't hit well; Rowand was a decent hitter.

MadetoOrta
11-23-2005, 10:42 PM
KW may have something else up his sleeve for all we know. As I said earlier, KW has taken the Sox to the next level. This trade is the type perennial championship contenders make.

TDog
11-23-2005, 10:46 PM
Look at the prospects the Sox have traded away over the last few years. Any All-Stars in there? How can one NOT conclude that the Sox scouts know their players? Given that track record, I have to believe they've made a pretty good evaluation and there are good reasons they let these guys go.

I think the last Sox pitching prospect who went to the Phillies was Scott Ruffcorn.

nccwsfan
11-23-2005, 11:03 PM
am i missing something?
i have never heard of gio or hagwood mentioned on these boards before, or even mentioned elsewhere as top sox prospects.
what are these guys stats?

Here are their major league stats (combined totals):

Career Wins: 0
Career ERA: ***
Career IP: 0
Career Strikeouts: 0
Career WHIP: ***
Career Saves: 0

These are guys that may never set foot on a major league mound, and people are complaining that we gave up too much for a player who has hit 430 HR's and 1193 RBI's with a .970 OPS?!?!? Am I missing something here?

Fake Chet Lemon
11-23-2005, 11:04 PM
I'm sure the people ripping Kenny for this trade were also ripping the Podsednik for Lee trade last year, the AJ acquisition, and the Tadahito Who?-Guchi acquisition. So as far as their "expert" opinions.......yawn.

JB98
11-23-2005, 11:09 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of a classic 3 hitter; Thome hits homers, walks, but strikes out a lot. Thome is more of a 4/5 it seems to me as is Konerko. And we lose a little lineup balance, if Anderson doesn't hit well; Rowand was a decent hitter.

I think Anderson can hit .270 with 13 HRs, which is all Rowand gave us last season. Frankly, I was disappointed in Rowand's hitting.

fquaye149
11-23-2005, 11:14 PM
Career ERA: 0.00
Career WHIP: 0.00


Dang! those are some impressive numbers. However, I would put forth that your calculations are wrong (divide by zero...)

nccwsfan
11-23-2005, 11:17 PM
Dang! those are some impressive numbers. However, I would put forth that your calculations are wrong (divide by zero...)

Good point- must be that new math.:redneck

JB98
11-23-2005, 11:18 PM
I'm sure the people ripping Kenny for this trade were also ripping the Podsednik for Lee trade last year, the AJ acquisition, and the Tadahito Who?-Guchi acquisition. So as far as their "expert" opinions.......yawn.

Actually, I ripped Kenny for the Podsednik trade last year. But I love the Thome deal.
:D:

HotelWhiteSox
11-23-2005, 11:18 PM
If I wasn't a Sox fan, I'd think it was a boneheaded trade. Beckett a cheap player in his prime goes for 2 prospects; Delgado, a superior hitter, goes for 2 prospects. Old and off an injury Thome goes for 2 prospects plus a sharp fielding CF from the world champs. And we're still playing him 8 mill a year.

Beckett is more 'injury prone' than Thome (even more so if Thome is a DH), and the Mets have the money and are taking on Delgado's remaining contract, without help from the Mets.

I like Aaron, but I think people fell in love with the personality. He was bad at the plate with a significant offensive numbers drop, and it's not like it was because he was playing small ball, his bunting and baserunning blew too. He was awesome defensively, with a nice arm and good jumps, but I hear Anderson is just as good. I liked the fact that Aaron always went 110% and he was one of my favorite rookies when coming up, but he really frustrated me down the stretch, maybe it's because I was at the Joe Crede Cleveland game (walkoff) where he was bad at the plate and misread two balls late in the game. Oh well, **** happens, after being in love with Olivo and seeing him years later, I completely trust KW. I love this trade and I love KW.

fquaye149
11-23-2005, 11:26 PM
Actually, I ripped Kenny for the Podsednik trade last year. But I love the Thome deal.
:D:

uh-oh! by the law of syllogism.....:o:

JB98
11-23-2005, 11:30 PM
uh-oh! by the law of syllogism.....:o:

Awww, don't worry about it. I remember standing up for Kenny against the "Friends of Miggy and Jeremy Reed" after the Garcia deal was made. I loved that deal, and it worked out OK.

Sometimes I'm right. Sometimes I'm wrong. I was wrong about Pods. Hopefully, I'm right about Thome (and Brian Anderson as an everyday player).

Hitmen77
11-23-2005, 11:38 PM
Here are their major league stats (combined totals):

Career Wins: 0
Career ERA: ***
Career IP: 0
Career Strikeouts: 0
Career WHIP: ***
Career Saves: 0

These are guys that may never set foot on a major league mound, and people are complaining that we gave up too much for a player who has hit 430 HR's and 1193 RBI's with a .970 OPS?!?!? Am I missing something here?

So, how high in the farm system have the 2 prospects we traded pitched? Did they pitch in AAA? AA? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't hear whether we were trading A level pitchers or AAA.

noquitter
11-23-2005, 11:48 PM
I like Aaron, but I think people fell in love with the personality. He was bad at the plate with a significant offensive numbers drop, and it's not like it was because he was playing small ball, his bunting and baserunning blew too. He was awesome defensively, with a nice arm and good jumps, but I hear Anderson is just as good. I liked the fact that Aaron always went 110% and he was one of my favorite rookies when coming up, but he really frustrated me down the stretch, maybe it's because I was at the Joe Crede Cleveland game (walkoff) where he was bad at the plate and misread two balls late in the game. Oh well, **** happens, after being in love with Olivo and seeing him years later, I completely trust KW. I love this trade and I love KW.Well said. Number of World Series Championships won by teams run by Ken Williams - 1. Number of World Series Championships won by teams run by WSI Dumbassed Armchair GM's - 0. :rolleyes:

asindc
11-23-2005, 11:49 PM
Well said. Number of World Series Championships won by teams run by Ken Williams - 1. Number of World Series Championships won by teams run by WSI Dumbassed Armchair GM's - 0. :rolleyes:

:D: LOL, so true!

ilsox7
11-23-2005, 11:50 PM
So, how high in the farm system have the 2 prospects we traded pitched? Did they pitch in AAA? AA? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't hear whether we were trading A level pitchers or AAA.

Gio was at High A, I believe. Good for a 19 year old.

Daniel pitched the 2nd half in AA, I think.

So basically, neither was really that close. If I remember correctly, the absolute earliest they are projected to be in the Bigs is 2008.

Fake Chet Lemon
11-23-2005, 11:55 PM
How in the Hell can people not give Kenny Williams the benefit of the doubt this year? Really! What else could he have done last year to earn that from you? What? Even after it was obvious he built a great team, he was still ripped last year for not dealing at the trading deadline. Yea, he really screwed that all up.

nccwsfan
11-24-2005, 12:07 AM
So, how high in the farm system have the 2 prospects we traded pitched? Did they pitch in AAA? AA? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't hear whether we were trading A level pitchers or AAA.

Daniel Haigwood
H: 6-2 W: 200 T: Left
16th Round Draft Pick in 2002 Entry Draft

2002 Phoenix (Arizona Summer League- ROOKIE)
2003 DID NOT PLAY (ACL surgery on left knee)
2004 Kannapolis (South Atlantic League- LOW A)
2005 Winston-Salem (Carolina League- HIGH A)
Birmingham (Southern League- AA)

Gio Gonzalez
H: 5-11 W: 185 T: Left
Sandwich pick between 1st and 2nd round in 2004 Entry Draft

2004 Bristol (Appalachian League- Advanced Rookie)
Kannapolis (South Atlantic League- LOW A)
2005 Kannapolis (South Atlantic League- LOW A)
Winston-Salem (Carolina League- HIGH A)

Source: White Sox Media Guide, minorleaguebaseball.com

No one can say with a straight face whether or not these guys will amount to anything. For Jim Thome they're easily expendable IMO.

batmanZoSo
11-24-2005, 12:09 AM
I won't sweat giving up these prospects. Just look at our track record in that area. Look at prospects in general, on every team. They're just prospects and odds are they won't reach their utmost, predicted potential. And there's a good chance they won't be jack @#$%. We're getting a badly needed left handed power bat and a possible Hall of Famer. When it comes to Thome's health, I trust our training staff will keep him in top shape. They do a great job year after year in keeping this team relatively healthy. Look at Dye, a guy who couldn't stay healthy for three or four years and becomes one of the top performing right fielders in the league when he comes here.

peeonwrigley
11-24-2005, 12:16 AM
Following prospects is a lot like following college recruiting. Lots of people get obsessed with rankings, etc. If your team has performed well in the past developing and reading talent, then you have to trust the scouts and coaches. That's what I'm doing with the Sox.

As for ARow... I was a big fan of Aaron Rowand the guy. He also played the game the right way... hard. He and Anderson last year looked as happy, if not happier than some of the White Sox most ardent fans when the team won.

Reasons I'm OK with the team letting him go:
-Brian Anderson
-Bad reads at big moments (although, it'd be unfair not to note his BIG plays in the outfield as well)
-Failure to perform in key bunt situations
-Numerous baserunning blunders
-Jim ****ing Thome

FarWestChicago
11-24-2005, 12:17 AM
How in the Hell can people not give Kenny Williams the benefit of the doubt this year? Really! What else could he have done last year to earn that from you? What? Even after it was obvious he built a great team, he was still ripped last year for not dealing at the trading deadline. Yea, he really screwed that all up.Today has been hysterical. You gotta love all these never rans ripping KW. If I didn't know how many goofballs there are around here, I would have been shocked. :redneck

Tragg
11-24-2005, 12:24 AM
Today has been hysterical. You gotta love all these never rans ripping KW. If I didn't know how many goofballs there are around here, I would have been shocked. :redneck

HA! At least the posters don't profess to be anything but armchair/amateur GMs.
Wait until "Transaction Analysis" comes out in BP for some pseudo-professional/demi-(Beane is)god analysis.

FarWestChicago
11-24-2005, 12:26 AM
HA! At least the posters don't profess to be anything but armchair/amateur GMs.They don't? I must have missed something. :D:

MHOUSE
11-24-2005, 01:12 AM
Gio and Haigwood on the fast-track to the Majors? Our 1-4 starters are locked up for the next 2 or 3 years each and McCarthy should be a White Sox for many years to come before he can even taste free agency. Where do they think these guys would have factored in? Aside from Buehrle eventually being a Cardinal; I think Garcia, Garland, and Contreras will be here for the next 3-5 years IMO.

MadetoOrta
11-24-2005, 07:39 AM
Dumping a young Norm Cash, JOhnny Callison and Earl Batty after the '59 World Series was a disaster. This is one of those classic trades where the top dog [White Sox] can afford to risk losing a possible SP in the future for immediate help now. Again, the Yankees and others have made these trades for decades to make themselves better for the next season. Has anyone contemplated that the next shoe to drop is a contract extension for Garland or Burls? Lest we forget, KW is the first GM to bring us to the promised land in 88 years. Have a Happy Thanksgiving ... there's much to be thankful for.

downstairs
11-24-2005, 07:57 AM
Look... even if Thome is a absolute bust (i.e. gets hurt on opening day and is out for the year)... this trade is not a "dissaster".

We gave up a good (not great) CF who we can easily come close to replacing right now, and pitching prospects that will never see the light of day on our team for some time.

Aaron Rowand is overrated. I don't mean that in the bad sense. EVERY PLAYER on a World Series winning team becomes overrated. Fans, experts and even GM's can be emotional rather than logical.

if Aaron Rowand continues to have the year he had in 2005, he'll be a normal, everyday good player. He has no more UPSIDE than we've seen. He's peaked.

Thome has massive upside. Like hall-of-fame numbers upside. His downside is no worse than any other player- injury.

Compare the upsides and the chances of each player hitting their upside, and on the surface this is a good risk to take.

tjhawk
11-24-2005, 08:49 AM
Exactly, and with this trade, I'm sure the "experts" will pick the Indians to win the Central in 06....but then again, what's our motto....WE DONT CARE!

Some already have

hose
11-24-2005, 09:51 AM
If I wasn't a Sox fan, I'd think it was a boneheaded trade. Beckett a cheap player in his prime goes for 2 prospects; Delgado, a superior hitter, goes for 2 prospects. Old and off an injury Thome goes for 2 prospects plus a sharp fielding CF from the world champs. And we're still playing him 8 mill a year.

But, like the Lee trade, it's all about the dollars. Let's see what he does with the money he has to play with. Konerko/Thome seems an odd combination for Ozzie. If he's a replacement for Konerko, we just saved $5 million. We've given up enough talent for my tastees - let's go out and buy a 3 hitter and Ozzie's speed guy.

Williams is not a value-driven GM - he gets what he wants, but usually pays top price. It's just the way it is. He also doesn't let his prospects rot on the vine, unlike many GMs. So far, his methods, have gotten us a ring.

The Beckett along with Lowell's $18 million dollars owed went for prospects is not a done deal yet.

voodoochile
11-24-2005, 10:00 AM
Dang! those are some impressive numbers. However, I would put forth that your calculations are wrong (divide by zero...)

Which leads to infinity...

voodoochile
11-24-2005, 10:03 AM
So, how high in the farm system have the 2 prospects we traded pitched? Did they pitch in AAA? AA? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't hear whether we were trading A level pitchers or AAA.

These guys are both top 10 prospects, and high up the pitching prospect chart, but not so much that the Sox have no fall back point. In addition, they are both at least a year from the majors if not more. I believe Haigwood had one good half year. Gio has been getting some good talk in the Minor Observations forum, so you can easily get some info by just clicking over there and looking for threads.

getonbckthr
11-24-2005, 10:29 AM
Look at the prospects the Sox have traded away over the last few years. Any All-Stars in there? How can one NOT conclude that the Sox scouts know their players? Given that track record, I have to believe they've made a pretty good evaluation and there are good reasons they let these guys go.
Hey what did Josh Fogg and Kip Wells ever do to you?

fquaye149
11-24-2005, 10:37 AM
Which leads to infinity...

Only on the limit of 1/x as x APPROACHES zero. X divided by zero, where x is a real number is not a valid computation. It isn't infinity...it just can't be done.

eastchicagosoxfan
11-24-2005, 10:43 AM
How in the Hell can people not give Kenny Williams the benefit of the doubt this year? Really! What else could he have done last year to earn that from you? What? Even after it was obvious he built a great team, he was still ripped last year for not dealing at the trading deadline. Yea, he really screwed that all up.
Our best pitcher is Mark Buerhle, who was a late round pick. He wasn't on anybody's radar when he came up. I still remember Hawk commenting on Buerhle in his first big league appeance. He said this guy throws strikes everytime he wants to. I don't think Brandon McCarthy was that highly touted in the minors. The Sox have a history of drafting pitchers with rocket arms that never succeed in the bigs. Another poster commented on the success rate of pitchers drafted out of high school. It's pretty low. Does anyone have a stat, or some other info on the matter? I see the trade as Rowand straight up for Thome and $20 million. I wasn't happy with it at first, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. A healthy Thome means less one run games. Rowand's shoes can be filled.

soxwon
11-24-2005, 10:53 AM
Here are their major league stats (combined totals):

Career Wins: 0
Career ERA: ***
Career IP: 0
Career Strikeouts: 0
Career WHIP: ***
Career Saves: 0

These are guys that may never set foot on a major league mound, and people are complaining that we gave up too much for a player who has hit 430 HR's and 1193 RBI's with a .970 OPS?!?!? Am I missing something here?


AMEN!!!!

Paulwny
11-24-2005, 11:01 AM
I actually hope that eventually some of the prospects the sox trade end up being decent mlb players. If every sox prospect we trade flops at the mlb level, Gm's will believe the sox farm hands are over hyped, similar to the yankmee prospects over the last few yrs. The yanks now have a difficult time trying to trade their farm hands.
If evey prospect fails the sox will never make a trade without giving away proven mlb players.

Baby Fisk
11-24-2005, 11:03 AM
At a Black Jays message board, the majority believe that Gillick screwed Williams by grabbing the two prospects and unloading a player (Thome) he didn't need. These people also believe that Gillick can walk on water, so take it FWIW. What they haven't noticed is that Williams is essentially following the same path that Gillick followed after the 1992 World Series: he is re-loading to make another run at the championship.

hose
11-24-2005, 11:07 AM
What would Shapiro have done?

After bringing a WS title to the southside, KW and Ozzie have earned my trust.

They know what they're doing.

Paulwny
11-24-2005, 11:14 AM
At a Black Jays message board, the majority believe that Gillick screwed Williams by grabbing the two prospects and unloading a player (Thome) he didn't need. These people also believe that Gillick can walk on water, so take it FWIW. What they haven't noticed is that Williams is essentially following the same path that Gillick followed after the 1992 World Series: he is re-loading to make another run at the championship.

Exactly, KW is reloading for another run. The sox badly needed a left handed power hitter. Delgado was taken, Thome became the best affordable option, mission accomplished.

voodoochile
11-24-2005, 11:24 AM
Only on the limit of 1/x as x APPROACHES zero. X divided by zero, where x is a real number is not a valid computation. It isn't infinity...it just can't be done.

Oh you mathematicians and your love of the literal. Of course it can be done, you just have to suspend your disbelief.

Of course the proper answer isn't infinity, it's "anything". I wasn't refering to 1/x because the pitchers in question have also given up 0 ER in the majors so far, so 0/0 and that is solved thusly:

0/0 = A

0*0=0*A

In that equation A can be any number, rational, irrational, imaginary or otherwise.

Edit: That is the perfect number for a prospect too, because depending on whether you believe they will be a stud or a bust, you can fill in the number you desire. It's actually a mathematical proof that no one knows **** about how good a prospect will be...:tongue:

SOXSINCE'70
11-24-2005, 12:26 PM
All these people are bitching about the prospects we gave up. What is Brian Anderson? Chop liver? Funny that they seem to be clueless about Anderson.

Don't forget about Jerry Owens,Ryan Sweeney or Chris Young.
They'll be ready for the bigs shortly as well,if minor league stats
are worth anything.Also,Jim Thome was a member of 6 AL Central
champion Tribe teams and went to the WS with them in '95 and '97.
His post season experience will prove quite valuable,IMHO.

fquaye149
11-24-2005, 12:53 PM
Oh you mathematicians and your love of the literal. Of course it can be done, you just have to suspend your disbelief.

Of course the proper answer isn't infinity, it's "anything". I wasn't refering to 1/x because the pitchers in question have also given up 0 ER in the majors so far, so 0/0 and that is solved thusly:

0/0 = A

0*0=0*A

In that equation A can be any number, rational, irrational, imaginary or otherwise.

Edit: That is the perfect number for a prospect too, because depending on whether you believe they will be a stud or a bust, you can fill in the number you desire. It's actually a mathematical proof that no one knows **** about how good a prospect will be...:tongue:

I'm not a mathematician and I didn't take anything beyond high school math (though I was damned good at AP calc:tongue:). However, the equation 0/0=A is not valid because 0/0 is a nonreal function. It's like the square root of a negative number. Therefore the equation you put forth isn't wrong, but it operates under a fundamentally flawed principle - that 0/0 could = anything.

But I think we can agree - Gonzalez and other dude have an MLB ERA of "not worth a damn thing, good or bad"

MadetoOrta
11-24-2005, 12:59 PM
I actually hope that eventually some of the prospects the sox trade end up being decent mlb players. If every sox prospect we trade flops at the mlb level, Gm's will believe the sox farm hands are over hyped, similar to the yankmee prospects over the last few yrs. The yanks now have a difficult time trying to trade their farm hands.
If evey prospect fails the sox will never make a trade without giving away proven mlb players.

You're on to something I'm thinking .... it seems Gonzalez and Haigwood were pretty hyped by the Sox and other legitimate 3d-party analysts this summer. You wonder if KW and the staff don't over-hype those they think can become part of a package for an established player. Interesting

skobabe8
11-24-2005, 03:27 PM
Pfft. Find me someone who didn't pick the Sox to finish 4th last year and tell me what HE thinks of this trade.

Bingo.

Please don't let your baseball knowledge be poisoned by kool-aid drinking Phillies fans.

SoxEd
11-24-2005, 04:28 PM
However, the equation 0/0=A is not valid because 0/0 is a nonreal function.
It's like the square root of a negative number.
Therefore the equation you put forth isn't wrong, but it operates under a fundamentally flawed principle - that 0/0 could = anything.

I have only a little more mathematical training than you, but here goes...

The highlighted sentence above is why VC mentioned "Imaginary Numbers"; like the Square root of -1.

It's a number that cannot possibly exist, and yet it can be used to describe so many real-world phenomena really beautifully, in ways that 'Real Numbers' cannot.

Physicists know it as "i", Engineers know it as "j".

On a Numberline, 'i' is represnted 1 unit ABOVE the line, level with 0, while '-i' is 1 unit BENEATH the line, level with 0.

i.e. the axis of Imaginary Numbers runs at 90 to the axis of Real numbers - which, as those are a Linear (One Dimensional) sequence, indicates that an Imaginary Number is something 'Other' than a 'Real' number (such as +1 or -1), and indeed exists on some eldritch other plane.

Back to the Trade, I have to have faith in KW on this one - the monster thread which greeted the trade's announcement yesterday contains several explanations of the upside of this trade for the Sox, and therefore explains why Kenny pulled the trigger.

Possible platooning of JT with Frank at DH while PK plays 1st, possible platooning of PK & JT at first with Frank DH-ing, insurance for if PK leaves, the R-L-R-L-R heart of our lineup if we keep PK, improvement over Everett, Anderson ready to replace ARow, the possibility of bringing one of FT, JT or PK off the bench to Pinch-hit..?

Sure, there is a possible downside, but what about if, on the Phillies' Opening Day, Rowand runs into the Wall and (God forbid) breaks his back, or trips on a ball shagging flys in ST and snaps his Cruciate ligament?

We gave up rare LHP Prospects - who MAY be good for Major League use in 2007 or 2008 at the earliest?
I wish those guys well, but I'd rather be able to keep McCarthy and our other five genuine MLB starters, plus our proven MLB bullpen, intact in Chicago, thankyou very much.
We've effectively picked up Thome for $8m per year, over three years.

As for the injury risk, who ISN'T an injury risk?
It only takes ONE fielding snafu/bizarre sneeze-/trouser-/Jello-related accident at home, and your MVP is out for the Season.
I'll put my trust in Herm and the other backroom Sox staff after Dye's 2005.
As long as they can keep JT away from Spiders, that is...

As for the opinions of the Mediots, remember how they treated our Sox for the whole of the 2005 season - none of them thought the Pods/Viz for Lee trade was anything other than a disaster for us (and like this one, the other team's fans were chuffed to bits), then we were going to finish fourth after ST, we may be going to finish third or second by the All-Star break, we were going to choke in September and not make the Playoffs, we would not be able to cope with Boston in the ALDS...

As others have already posted, Kenny Williams has only won 1 World Series, whereas the media commentators have won how many again?

Dan H
11-24-2005, 06:58 PM
I thought the main priority for the White Sox this season is the acquisition of a power hitting left hander. You have to give up something to get that. I only hope Thome can stay healthy. If he can do that, he is one of the best pick ups for the Sox in years. I only hope that doesn't mean Konerko is gone.

MarySwiss
11-24-2005, 07:01 PM
I thought the main priority for the White Sox this season is the acquisition of a power hitting left hander. You have to give up something to get that. I only hope Thome can stay healthy. If he can do that, he is one of the best pick ups for the Sox in years. I only hope that doesn't mean Konerko is gone.

Second that, Dan!

Whitesox029
11-24-2005, 08:40 PM
It's funny how people fall in love with prospects. I trust Randar's opinion most on our minor-leaguers, and he posted the other day that he'd give up Gio in a second to get Delgado. There's serious questions about Gio's durability.
That's exactly what I was thinking...the only sox prospects I ever hear about are the ones that are hyped and the ones who are invited to ST. These guys were neither. Sweeney and Anderson were before the trade, and still are, the Sox best prospects (I no longer count McCarthy as a prospect because he's our 5th starter in my eyes).

A. Cavatica
11-24-2005, 08:46 PM
I was anxious, but in favor of the Garcia trade. I was a little anxious, and very much in favor of the Lee trade. I'm not anxious at all, and thrilled about this trade. I guess KW has finally earned my complete confidence.

Let's review.

The Sox needed a top-of-the-rotation starter. Garcia was the only one available, and KW went and made that deal. I loved getting Garcia; I thought KW overpaid. I was wrong.

The Sox needed to clear salary, find a leadoff hitter, fill holes at C and 2B and in the rotation. And somehow KW managed to pull that off. I wasn't worried we'd miss Lee, but I did worry that Podsednik wouldn't get on base enough. I was wrong.

And this year, the Sox needed to find a premier lefthanded power hitter, without busting the budget, and open an outfield spot for Brian Anderson. He did that too. I really like Rowand, but Thome's a difference-maker. I really like Haigwood and Gio, but I don't see them as top-of-the rotation starters, even if they make it to the show. This time I'm trusting KW's talent evaluations.

nccwsfan
11-24-2005, 09:24 PM
I thought the main priority for the White Sox this season is the acquisition of a power hitting left hander. You have to give up something to get that. I only hope Thome can stay healthy. If he can do that, he is one of the best pick ups for the Sox in years. I only hope that doesn't mean Konerko is gone.

EXACTLY! They just filled their biggest need (1a if you count PK at 1) and we traded from a position of strength to get Thome (OF). This was a very good trade for BOTH teams.

PS- my gut feel keeps leaning towards Pauly staying....hope I'm right.

voodoochile
11-24-2005, 10:08 PM
I'm not a mathematician and I didn't take anything beyond high school math (though I was damned good at AP calc:tongue:). However, the equation 0/0=A is not valid because 0/0 is a nonreal function. It's like the square root of a negative number. Therefore the equation you put forth isn't wrong, but it operates under a fundamentally flawed principle - that 0/0 could = anything.

But I think we can agree - Gonzalez and other dude have an MLB ERA of "not worth a damn thing, good or bad"

You can indeed talk about dividing zero by zero, it's merely an abstract rule that says you can't. Sure it doesn't mean anything, but for example, where in the real world do you find -1 anything?

Oh look, the pitcher has thrown negative one pitches so far...

Oh look... negative one crows sitting on that telephone line...

Oh my goodness, my answering machine has negative one messages on it...

Maybe it has some practical use in computers - I'm not a programmer... er... I am not a programor... er... I don't write code :wink:, but in the real world it's simply an abstract idea. Sort of like the worth of a prospect who is 2 years minimum from ever reaching the majors. It's a non-entity for most people's lives...

batmanZoSo
11-24-2005, 11:32 PM
I was anxious, but in favor of the Garcia trade. I was a little anxious, and very much in favor of the Lee trade. I'm not anxious at all, and thrilled about this trade. I guess KW has finally earned my complete confidence.

Let's review.

The Sox needed a top-of-the-rotation starter. Garcia was the only one available, and KW went and made that deal. I loved getting Garcia; I thought KW overpaid. I was wrong.

The Sox needed to clear salary, find a leadoff hitter, fill holes at C and 2B and in the rotation. And somehow KW managed to pull that off. I wasn't worried we'd miss Lee, but I did worry that Podsednik wouldn't get on base enough. I was wrong.

And this year, the Sox needed to find a premier lefthanded power hitter, without busting the budget, and open an outfield spot for Brian Anderson. He did that too. I really like Rowand, but Thome's a difference-maker. I really like Haigwood and Gio, but I don't see them as top-of-the rotation starters, even if they make it to the show. This time I'm trusting KW's talent evaluations.

Nicely put. The man knows what he's doing, obviously. And he knows a hell of a lot more than I do. It doesn't mean to blindly accept every move he makes, yada yada yada, I have to say it.

Look at the top of this page, the Soxogram says it all.

SoxFan76
11-24-2005, 11:40 PM
I stopped reading a lot of posts, but let me just say this.

This trade helped both teams. Just like the Lee/Podsednik trade, this trade gives the Phillies a major league centerfielder, makes room for their stud rookie 1st baseman, and gives them 2 quality pitching prospects. The Sox get their middle of the order left handed bat they needed.

Why all the controversy?

Norberto7
11-24-2005, 11:57 PM
Sure it doesn't mean anything, but for example, where in the real world do you find -1 anything?

Um...the wind chill tonight? :D:

Though, that in itself is arbitrary, if we are talking about Farenheit. For if basing a temperature scale on the coldest temperature recorded by Gabriel Farenheit in Danzing, Germany in the winter of 1708-09 is not arbitrary, then what is, really?

So, you have a point.

chisox77
11-25-2005, 12:00 AM
I like this trade.

I am now convinced that Konerko will be signed, because Thome will be batting behind him in the order. I feel that KW made this deal for several reasons:

1. Filling a need for a power hitting LH (who also plays first base, but still would be ideal for DH)

2. Keeping Thome from the Twins or Indians (both teams were considering him in their plans for '06)

3. While I, like many White Sox fans, love Rowand, his offense was disappointing in spite of batting behind Dye and in front of AJ much of the year, in the always ideal #6 spot (13 HR, 69 RBI, .270 BA - almost any ML outfielder can post these numbers, especially with nearly 600 ABs, like Aaron had) Face it, Rowand was expendable and I figured that he would be traded to someone before Christmas.

4. The addition of Thome enhances Konerko's ability to as a power hitter, and Thome is, by all reports, an excellend clubhouse player, a great teammate, and a proven winner. All of this for 8 million a year - a bargain!

For now, your '06 White Sox Lineup:

1. Podsenick CF
2. Iguchi 2B
3. Konerko 1B (if signed)
4. Thome DH
5. Dye RF
6. AJ C
7. Crede 3B
8. Anderson LF (unless Pierre is acquired, then he would be a sub, while Pierre bats second, and Iguchi is moved to #6)
9. Uribe SS

Remember: KW is not finished - there may be another move as in a trade or a free agent signing, and Konerko will most likely stay.

TornLabrum
11-25-2005, 08:02 AM
Um...the wind chill tonight? :D:

Though, that in itself is arbitrary, if we are talking about Farenheit. For if basing a temperature scale on the coldest temperature recorded by Gabriel Farenheit in Danzing, Germany in the winter of 1708-09 is not arbitrary, then what is, really?

So, you have a point.

I don't know where you heard that story. It's not true. From the Encyclopaedia Britannica:

"The 18th-century German physicist Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit originally took as the zero of his scale the temperature of an equal ice-salt mixture and selected the values of 30 degree and 90 degree for the freezing point of water and normal body temperature, respectively; these later were revised to 32 degrees and 96 degrees, but the final scale required an adjustment to 98.6 degree for the latter value."

MeanFish
11-25-2005, 08:37 AM
I love the fact that, somehow, we threw a debate about imaginary numbers into a trade analysis thread.

Seriously, what other bunch of fans is going to do that ever?

:threadrules:

SoxEd
11-25-2005, 09:00 PM
I love the fact that, somehow, we threw a debate about imaginary numbers into a trade analysis thread.

Seriously, what other bunch of fans is going to do that ever?


Yep, we Sox fans are all a bunch of Mullet-wearing, wife-beating drunks who hope to one day finally somehow get our High School GED's :redneck

Ol' No. 2
11-25-2005, 09:17 PM
You can indeed talk about dividing zero by zero, it's merely an abstract rule that says you can't. Sure it doesn't mean anything, but for example, where in the real world do you find -1 anything?

Oh look, the pitcher has thrown negative one pitches so far...

Oh look... negative one crows sitting on that telephone line...

Oh my goodness, my answering machine has negative one messages on it...

Maybe it has some practical use in computers - I'm not a programmer... er... I am not a programor... er... I don't write code :wink:, but in the real world it's simply an abstract idea. Sort of like the worth of a prospect who is 2 years minimum from ever reaching the majors. It's a non-entity for most people's lives...My bank balance has, on occasion, employed negative numbers.:redface: Values can be negative in relation to a fixed point of reference (i.e. moving up or down can be thought of as positive and negative directions). Negative numbers also find use in physical sciences, for example, when nuclear spin states can be +1 or -1. Imaginary numbers, believe it or not, are useful in describing the real world. Sine waves are actually exponentials with imaginary exponents. Hanging cables are described perfectly by hyperbolic cosines, which employ imaginary numbers.

Dividing by zero is not prohibited by any rule...it just produces an undefined result. It's not a real number, it's not a rational number, it's not even an imaginary number. It isn't any kind of number. It's undefined.

joepoe
11-26-2005, 09:21 PM
Look at the prospects the Sox have traded away over the last few years. Any All-Stars in there? How can one NOT conclude that the Sox scouts know their players? Given that track record, I have to believe they've made a pretty good evaluation and there are good reasons they let these guys go.

Josh Fogg and Kip Wells are deciding which cap to wear in Cooperstown.