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View Full Version : Major blow to pitching in farm system


whitesoxfan1986
11-23-2005, 04:16 PM
I cant believe that KW traded BOTH of the best lefties in our organization.
He must think a lot of Lumsden and Liotta.

duke of dorwood
11-23-2005, 04:27 PM
They are real high on Broadway-apparently higher than I thought

KRS1
11-23-2005, 05:27 PM
I think this also says alot about Whisler, Ryan Rodriguez, Logan, and Clayton Richard as our next in line lefties. Trading either of Gio or Dani sucks, but all of the guys I listed r pretty good pitchers with good arms(94-96mph types).

ChiSoxIn06
11-23-2005, 05:34 PM
i havent heard anything about the sox giving up any minor leaguers

JermaineDye05
11-23-2005, 05:41 PM
i havent heard anything about the sox giving up any minor leaguers

Daniel Haigwood and a player to be named later are going to the phils along with rowand to ptbnl is most likely gonna be gio gonzalaze reportedly

Optipessimism
11-24-2005, 10:43 AM
This question is for those who have been on this board a lot longer than I have and were here during the Ritchie trade. When that trade happened, how highly regarded were Kip Wells and Josh Fogg around here in comparison to Gio and Haigwood?

If even both Haigwood and Gio go on to have decent careers as bottom to middle of the roation guys while Thome puts up good numbers here I think we've won this deal by a large margin.

soxtalker
11-24-2005, 11:48 AM
This question is for those who have been on this board a lot longer than I have and were here during the Ritchie trade. When that trade happened, how highly regarded were Kip Wells and Josh Fogg around here in comparison to Gio and Haigwood?

If even both Haigwood and Gio go on to have decent careers as bottom to middle of the roation guys while Thome puts up good numbers here I think we've won this deal by a large margin.

I don't think that Gio and Haigwood are nearly as well known among Sox fans as Wells and Fogg were. IIRC, Wells had been on the big-league roster for awhile (and struggled), and Fogg may have even pitched here a bit.

Any discussion of trading of prospects results in a fairly polarized discussion. There are those on WSI who place much more value on established players than prospects, and there are those who value prospects highly. So, even if you went back and read through the archives, you might have a tough time discerning what the "consensus" was. Going on memory is even more difficult, as Ritchie was pretty bad.

Ol' No. 2
11-24-2005, 12:17 PM
This question is for those who have been on this board a lot longer than I have and were here during the Ritchie trade. When that trade happened, how highly regarded were Kip Wells and Josh Fogg around here in comparison to Gio and Haigwood?

If even both Haigwood and Gio go on to have decent careers as bottom to middle of the roation guys while Thome puts up good numbers here I think we've won this deal by a large margin.Wells was a highly touted prospect that struggled in the major leagues. He was one of the slowest pitchers I've ever seen, and got slower when he got into jams. If Carlton Fisk had still been catching they would have had to start games at 4:00 just to get them in before curfew. I was happy to see Wells go.

Fogg was a September call-up the previous year and had only a few relief appearances, and I thought he looked pretty good. But he never amounted to more than a middle-of-the-rotation pitcher.

Gonzalez and Haigwood are a lot less experienced, neither having pitched above AA, so in that sense, it's apples and oranges. Lots more potential, but you know what that's worth.

Randar68
11-24-2005, 01:53 PM
Haigwood is a bit of an unknown. He was an interesting pick when drafted. No glaring "stuff" to speak of but dominated his state like few I can remember in HS. That being said, he had a real breakout year this year.

Let's wait and see what the word is on the PTBNL. I fail to see the reason why Gio would not be named immediately as opposed to being listed as a PTBNL.

Again, as long as it is a pitcher, I'm ok with it. We're all very high on Gio, but he has serious durability concerns and I said earlier that so long as the Sox don't give up Young, BMac or Valido, it's no big deal if that brings you a big bat.

The fact the Sox gave up NO MLB pitching, and got 22 of the 43 million dollars paid for, giving up just 2 top 5-10 prospects is a good deal. Neither Gio or Haigwood were top 5 in the organization. Borderline top 5. Seeing what was given up for Delgado and Beckett, the Sox made a great move IMO.

Fogg and Wells were MLB-ready players. Not anything better than "decent", but Wells had been a hyped 1st rounder. Gio still hasn't pitched above Winston-Salem and Haigwood only really came on this year, earning part of a season in AA.

Some of the guys like Rex really like Haig, but I've not been overly impressed in the past when I've seen him pitch. Great curve, good location, average fastball...

Again, the PTBNL will impact the deal, but Gio is far from can't-miss at this point.

Banix12
11-25-2005, 01:48 AM
The white sox major league club seems to be legitimately set with their pitching for at least the next couple years. Trading pitching prospects right now is not the biggest sin the team can commit because they are all blocked at the major league level. The sox can easily replenish the minor leagues with pitching by the time they are probably going to need it.

Certainly the sox have the potential to get burned in the deal if the prospects just take off, but frankly I don't have a problem with them going. There will be more minor league studs to take their place.

The Deacon
11-25-2005, 11:24 AM
The white sox major league club seems to be legitimately set with their pitching for at least the next couple years. Trading pitching prospects right now is not the biggest sin the team can commit because they are all blocked at the major league level. The sox can easily replenish the minor leagues with pitching by the time they are probably going to need it.

Certainly the sox have the potential to get burned in the deal if the prospects just take off, but frankly I don't have a problem with them going. There will be more minor league studs to take their place.

I agree, I'll give up minor league players everytime for a proven MLB player. How many 'can't miss' prospects have we and other MLB teams had over the years that haven't done squat? The percentages of being a stud in the majors aren't that great, lets get the people who have proven themselves.

California Sox
11-25-2005, 01:19 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but did Lumsden pitch in Intstructional League? It is possible KW knows more than we do. Remember, Haigwood's breakout started in instructs last year. If Lumsden gets healthy or Whisler gets some consistency, it could turn out we made a trade out of surplus.

kwolf68
11-25-2005, 02:48 PM
Yea, the two highest rated pitching prospects in the Sox organization are now gone.

I love Thome, but we really paid a steep price to get him. These guys were absolutely incredible last year. I have real issues with dealing talented young lefty pitchers who seem to really have great potential.

I know the Sox are going to really make another run next year, and that's cool...great in fact, but I can't believe the Phillies wouldn't have just taken Gio, Rowand, and say a Corwin Malone instead of Haigwood? I bet they'd have done it, but oh well...it's over now.

Crede_Fan
11-25-2005, 04:25 PM
Yea, the two highest rated pitching prospects in the Sox organization are now gone.



BMac's still here and I believe he's the highest rated pitching prospect.

kwolf68
11-25-2005, 06:01 PM
BMac's still here and I believe he's the highest rated pitching prospect.

Crede fan. #1, cool name. Joe is my favorite player as well. I spent all of the first half of last year on whitesox.com defending him. He got his swing together and his hitting is really coming around. With the way he plays Defense, I think he is going to turn into a .270+ hitter and will knock upper 20s in homers and with his goldy defense you are talking one of the elite 3rd basemen in the game. And let's not forget how CLUTCH he was in the post season. Dude just is so cool. Love him. He's home grown and has worked and worked to get better. Also dig the way he wears his uni.

Regarding Brandon McCarthy. I no longer consider him a prospect. I think we know what we got with that guy. He was flatout brilliant after his callup. The job he did on Boston and Texas was actually jaw dropping.

progers0826
11-26-2005, 01:09 PM
Lumsden did pitch in the Instructional League, and appears back on track after elbow surgery. I do think the Sox see a breakout year from him in 2006, joining Tracey, Liotta, Broadway and Haeger in the mix of guys coming in the next one-three years. As a longshot guy, they have Brian West back in the mix after shoulder surgery and a season of football at LSU.

RedPinStripes
11-26-2005, 01:24 PM
I haven't seen either one of these guys, but if the Sox plan to keep Mark, Freddy, Garland and Bmac for at least 4 years, how many "prospects" can you have that are "can't miss"? I don't get too excited about prospects until I see them in the bigs like McCarthy.

caulfield12
11-26-2005, 01:47 PM
Haigwood is a bit of an unknown. He was an interesting pick when drafted. No glaring "stuff" to speak of but dominated his state like few I can remember in HS. That being said, he had a real breakout year this year.

Let's wait and see what the word is on the PTBNL. I fail to see the reason why Gio would not be named immediately as opposed to being listed as a PTBNL.

Again, as long as it is a pitcher, I'm ok with it. We're all very high on Gio, but he has serious durability concerns and I said earlier that so long as the Sox don't give up Young, BMac or Valido, it's no big deal if that brings you a big bat.

The fact the Sox gave up NO MLB pitching, and got 22 of the 43 million dollars paid for, giving up just 2 top 5-10 prospects is a good deal. Neither Gio or Haigwood were top 5 in the organization. Borderline top 5. Seeing what was given up for Delgado and Beckett, the Sox made a great move IMO.

Fogg and Wells were MLB-ready players. Not anything better than "decent", but Wells had been a hyped 1st rounder. Gio still hasn't pitched above Winston-Salem and Haigwood only really came on this year, earning part of a season in AA.

Some of the guys like Rex really like Haig, but I've not been overly impressed in the past when I've seen him pitch. Great curve, good location, average fastball...

Again, the PTBNL will impact the deal, but Gio is far from can't-miss at this point.

The only quote I saw today was an unnamed source saying the White Sox thought Broadway and Charles Haeger (the knuckleballer?) being closer to the big leagues.

Weve seen Parque and Munoz struggle. Guerrier. Ginter. Myette. Beirne. Snyder. Rauch with diminished velocity. There are not a ton of lefties throwing in the high 80s that are successful like Buehrle and Glavine. Maybe Haigwood will break through, who knows?

Gonzalez is the key to this deal. A combination of Johan Santano-Zito or the next Jason Stumm.

We apparently could have had an extra $7 million or so from the Phils, but that would have meant giving up McCarthy or Contreras and seriously damaging our chances to repeat. It was the right move, IMO.

Of course, we will be screaming for years if Thome never returns to form, but a stud like Thome who is proven is a much better better than a never was like Ritchie, who couldnt even make the Twins.

We have a lot of potential in the minors, as long as 2 make it as starters, we should be fine. Honel and Malone could make it back. Our depth is decreased in the minors obviously, but we have enough pieces to have the luxury to make these deals that 12-18 teams in the majors do not.

We also have the glut of outfielders and DHs (Sweeney, Fields, Young, Anderson, Owens, Rogowski) to make another move or two that impacts the big league roster.

kwolf68
11-26-2005, 04:37 PM
That glut of outfielders is where I'd have like to see the Sox trade from. Rowand, a pitcher and an OF was something I could have lived with. Although I don't think Gio is 100% official yet and thats just speculation. I'm holing out hope, he's not part of this package.

rdivaldi
11-26-2005, 04:41 PM
Lumsden did pitch in the Instructional League, and appears back on track after elbow surgery. I do think the Sox see a breakout year from him in 2006, joining Tracey, Liotta, Broadway and Haeger in the mix of guys coming in the next one-three years. As a longshot guy, they have Brian West back in the mix after shoulder surgery and a season of football at LSU.

If you're waiting for Tracey to show up, you'll be waiting for a long time...

cws05champ
11-26-2005, 08:35 PM
Hey, Randar68.....bye the way, the Phils will announce Gonzalez as the player to be named later after the winter meetings, so they do not risk losing him in a Rule five draft. Another team could claim him if they do not put him on the 40 man roster.:bandance:

rdivaldi
11-27-2005, 08:21 AM
Hey, Randar68.....bye the way, the Phils will announce Gonzalez as the player to be named later after the winter meetings, so they do not risk losing him in a Rule five draft. Another team could claim him if they do not put him on the 40 man roster.:bandance:

???

That doesn't make sense. Why would a player who's only been in the minor leagues for 2 years risk being exposed to the Rule V draft?

Randar68
11-28-2005, 01:15 PM
Yea, the two highest rated pitching prospects in the Sox organization are now gone.

I love Thome, but we really paid a steep price to get him. These guys were absolutely incredible last year. I have real issues with dealing talented young lefty pitchers who seem to really have great potential.

I know the Sox are going to really make another run next year, and that's cool...great in fact, but I can't believe the Phillies wouldn't have just taken Gio, Rowand, and say a Corwin Malone instead of Haigwood? I bet they'd have done it, but oh well...it's over now.

1) I wouldn't have rated Haigwood ahead of either Broadway or a healthy Lumsden (McCarthy either).
2) Gio has such a durability question mark at this point I think it's probably a good time to trade him now, got great value for him, IMO.

Randar68
11-28-2005, 01:17 PM
If you're waiting for Tracey to show up, you'll be waiting for a long time...

I think he could be a good set-up man, but not a starter, IMO.

That being said, I also don't think much of knuckle-ballers. Fun to watch on bad teams, but too inconsistent to ever be key starters IMO. I would trade him if anyone ever brought him up in deal talks. JMO.

Tekijawa
11-28-2005, 02:03 PM
I always knew Gio would do Great things for this team! Thanks for Bringing us a Stud DH GIO!

He'll be good if he stays healthy...

kwolf68
11-30-2005, 07:49 PM
1) I wouldn't have rated Haigwood ahead of either Broadway or a healthy Lumsden (McCarthy either).
2) Gio has such a durability question mark at this point I think it's probably a good time to trade him now, got great value for him, IMO.

I don't really count B-Mac as a "prospect" anymore. "Prospects" don't one-hit teams like the Rangers or shutout Boston in Fenway over 8. B-Mac is now a Major Leaguer.

If Gio has health concerns then why not the same for Lumsden? How can a 22 year old tossing sub 2 era, 11Ks per nine, zero homers given up in 70 AA innings (admit B-Ham has a crypt to hit in) not be top flight? He's already 2 levels about Lumsden. Broadway is TBD and I want to see a little extra on the fastball from him before saying he's better...although I'll admit if you pinned me down on it I'd rather trade Haigwood than Broadway. Broadway already has major league breaking stuff.

Yes, now with Thome and PK in the fold, I've moderated my view on this deal. Gio looks like a future relief pitcher ... he has a high impact delivery, is very small, and (for now) only has 2 pitches. Sounds like relief-city....

Now, if we can just get Kris Honel and Shaun Tracey to get their act together next year I'll be happy. I didn't want to deal those others because I'm sure about neither Honel or Tracey. Honel seemed to lose it there for a while and Tracey may kill someone by the time he gets to the bigs.

caulfield12
11-30-2005, 08:11 PM
I don't really count B-Mac as a "prospect" anymore. "Prospects" don't one-hit teams like the Rangers or shutout Boston in Fenway over 8. B-Mac is now a Major Leaguer.

If Gio has health concerns then why not the same for Lumsden? How can a 22 year old tossing sub 2 era, 11Ks per nine, zero homers given up in 70 AA innings (admit B-Ham has a crypt to hit in) not be top flight? He's already 2 levels about Lumsden. Broadway is TBD and I want to see a little extra on the fastball from him before saying he's better...although I'll admit if you pinned me down on it I'd rather trade Haigwood than Broadway. Broadway already has major league breaking stuff.

Yes, now with Thome and PK in the fold, I've moderated my view on this deal. Gio looks like a future relief pitcher ... he has a high impact delivery, is very small, and (for now) only has 2 pitches. Sounds like relief-city....

Now, if we can just get Kris Honel and Shaun Tracey to get their act together next year I'll be happy. I didn't want to deal those others because I'm sure about neither Honel or Tracey. Honel seemed to lose it there for a while and Tracey may kill someone by the time he gets to the bigs.

Gio is 20 years old.

How many pitches does Johan Santana throw? I´ve seen him dominate many games with just two. Of course, Gio doesn´t throw with quite the average speed of Santana, but he can bring it up to 94-95 and is consistently 91-93.

maurice
11-30-2005, 08:43 PM
they have Brian West back in the mix after shoulder surgery and a season of football at LSU.

Interesting. I figured that West was done with baseball.

Thanks for the scoop, Phil.

Randar68
11-30-2005, 10:38 PM
How can a 22 year old tossing sub 2 era, 11Ks per nine, zero homers given up in 70 AA innings (admit B-Ham has a crypt to hit in) not be top flight? He's already 2 levels about Lumsden.

Lumsden throws legit mid-90's (seen him hit 95-96 in person), from the LEFT side, and has a Gio-esque curve ball in addition. He has 2 MLB Plus pitches. Haigwood has 1, Gio has 1.

California Sox
11-30-2005, 11:36 PM
Is Lumsden going to be 100%? It will be interesting to see how he does when healthy. I imagine he'll spend the first half shaking off the rust at W-S, but if all goes according to plan he'll be in Birmingham by July I'd imagine.

rdivaldi
12-01-2005, 12:19 AM
Is Lumsden going to be 100%? It will be interesting to see how he does when healthy. I imagine he'll spend the first half shaking off the rust at W-S, but if all goes according to plan he'll be in Birmingham by July I'd imagine.

The times I've seen Tyler throw, before the injury, he struggled with his control. I wouldn't be surprised if the entire 2006 season is spent "shaking off the rust". Give him some time to get back into the swing of things.