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Hitmen77
11-23-2005, 09:52 AM
According to this Tribune article, interest in Konerko by other teams is not that high because of the high salary range he'll be asking for.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-051122sox,1,7596069.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed

The White Sox had hoped for an early answer from Konerko, but that apparently is not going to happen even though there appears to be minimal interest in him because of his massive salary.

....The only other team that has shown overt interest is Anaheim, and its reported offer may be for less than the five years, $60 million-plus Konerko and his agent wanted.

If true, this would be good news in terms of the Sox's chances of keeping Paul without breaking the bank. But then again, all it takes is one idiot team (think Tigers and Maggs) to blow everyone out of the water with an outrageous salary offer.

wdelaney72
11-23-2005, 10:03 AM
This is very interesting. While I REALLY want PK back, I've always felt his contract should not be comparable to Vlad or Beltran's recent contracts.

I certainly hope this is the case and we're able to bring him back for a reasonable amount of money.

I'd love nothing more than to see PK re-signed and Thome acquired to play DH with Frank, but I know that I'm bordering deep pink territory.

TomBradley72
11-23-2005, 10:20 AM
I hope PK will not drag this on too long...especially with the winter meetings coming up where the WSox need to know where they stand with him so they can make the appropriate trades, etc.

Flight #24
11-23-2005, 10:41 AM
Not a bad time for KW to swoop in and make the 4/$52 offer official, then tell Paulie straight up - "We need an answer so that we can either start adding to or replacing you".

Bottom line: Red Sox just added anywhere from $12-15M in payroll via Lowell/Beckett. Mets just added $7M that jumps to $14 and are rumored to have another $10(Wagner) imminent. The Angels are the only interested team and they're supposedly at less than the Sox offer. Paulie doesn't have as many options as he might have thought for big $$$.

D. TODD
11-23-2005, 10:43 AM
I hope PK will not drag this on too long...especially with the winter meetings coming up where the WSox need to know where they stand with him so they can make the appropriate trades, etc. This is important. Beltran left the Astros hanging, with just enough hope of resigning him to effectively eliminate them from signing his replacement. Hopefully one way or the other the Sox will know where they stand in enough time to reload completely for their defense of the world title.

patbooyah
11-23-2005, 10:45 AM
i, too, agree that konerko is asking for way too much money.

first off, 29 of his 40 home runs were hit at the cell. take him to a "normal" park and one could argue that he is only a 20-25 HR type of guy.

in june, july, august and september he had a great batting average, but his first two months were brutal -- average about .223.

people say he is consistant, but i think he is consistantly inconsistant.

in 2004 his only bad month was august, but in we all remember that in 2003 he only had two months where his average was above .238, and only three(yes three) months where his average was over 200! in three of the six months of the season, he hit UNDER 200!

throw in some of his controversial quotes and the fact that he couldn't wait until the day after the parade to file for free agency, and i'm not the biggest fan of the "paul konerko investment."

but then again, who am i to say? he is asking for money similar to what delgado got, and certainly the argument can be made that they are similar levels of quality.

Ol' No. 2
11-23-2005, 10:50 AM
Not a bad time for KW to swoop in and make the 4/$52 offer official, then tell Paulie straight up - "We need an answer so that we can either start adding to or replacing you".

Bottom line: Red Sox just added anywhere from $12-15M in payroll via Lowell/Beckett. Mets just added $7M that jumps to $14 and are rumored to have another $10(Wagner) imminent. The Angels are the only interested team and they're supposedly at less than the Sox offer. Paulie doesn't have as many options as he might have thought for big $$$.I agree. It's a good time to close the deal and it's pretty clear he's not going to do any better. Pauly wanted 5 years but maybe they can compromise and add an option year with a buyout. I would have thought the Orioles would be interested, but I guess they're going to go with Young and Gibbons.

Tekijawa
11-23-2005, 10:56 AM
Offer him $55 over 5... then go get Thome... Then that would end any ammo Cubs fans thought they had about our park being empty...

AZChiSoxFan
11-23-2005, 11:05 AM
throw in some of his controversial quotes and the fact that he couldn't wait until the day after the parade to file for free agency, and i'm not the biggest fan of the "paul konerko investment."



I can't disagree at all with the other things in your post (homers at the cell, etc.) but I will respectfully disagree with the two above points. First of all, I'm mildly amused by the fact that the only people who seem to think he's had controversial quotes are people here at WSI. I realize you are more in the know than I am, but one would think that if any of his teammates really had a problem with the guy, it would have come out by now.

Secondly, regarding when he filed for FA, MLB is a business and filing for FA is just the business side of baseball. I'm guessing that's what his agent told him to do.

I'm a huge FOPK but even I am concerned about giving a guy a long term high dollar contract. It wasn't what made the Sox a great team to being with. I trust KW to do the right thing for the team.

Kuzman
11-23-2005, 11:14 AM
Offer him $55 over 5... then go get Thome... Then that would end any ammo Cubs fans thought they had about our park being empty...

That doesn't really bother me at all anymore. I just reply.. What did the attendance do for the cubbies? 4th place behind the Brewers? Oh ok, go sit down.

But I would like to see Paulie take that 4y/52m contract and then acquire Thome/Thomas and have more of an offensive attack.

veeter
11-23-2005, 11:19 AM
This is very interesting. While I REALLY want PK back, I've always felt his contract should not be comparable to Vlad or Beltran's recent contracts.

I certainly hope this is the case and we're able to bring him back for a reasonable amount of money.

I'd love nothing more than to see PK re-signed and Thome acquired to play DH with Frank, but I know that I'm bordering deep pink territory. I actually think the Konerko, Thome/Thomas idea is a definite possibility. Especially if they trade Contreras and his contract. (But I'd hate to see Jose go.)

chisoxmike
11-23-2005, 11:26 AM
That doesn't really bother me at all anymore. I just reply.. What did the attendance do for the cubbies? 4th place behind the Brewers? Oh ok, go sit down.

But I would like to see Paulie take that 4y/52m contract and then acquire Thome/Thomas and have more of an offensive attack.

Please tell me you don't say "cubbies":puking:

Fenway
11-23-2005, 11:34 AM
Konerko is being held hostage by Manny.

Now that the Mets seem out of the Manny sweepstakes that leaves Anaheim and I'm not sure Mike Scioscia wants him so the Angels may still be interested in Konerko. The Red Sox won't make a bid unless they do move Manny.

Nothing is going to happen until the Winter Meetings in December

It's Time
11-23-2005, 11:40 AM
This is very interesting. While I REALLY want PK back, I've always felt his contract should not be comparable to Vlad or Beltran's recent contracts.


The same Vlad who couldn't get a hit to save his teams life in the playoffs? Konerko proved to be a money player in crunch time, Vlad didn't.

TomBradley72
11-23-2005, 12:05 PM
I want PK back...other than one off year he's been pretty consistent offensively...in our 105 year history he's the ONLY guy to have back to back 40 HR/100 RBI years...his defense has greatly improved...he's one of the key leaders in the clubhouse...was incredibly clutch in the post season and is a fan favorite. I don't care that he's a slow runner...to me that's like ripping on Pods for not hitting more HR's (in the regular season :cool: ) I'm not concerned with a little risk in a 4-5 year deal because I'm not worried about 2008, 2009 or 2010....I'm worried about 2006 and 2007 while we have a stud starting rotation....that's our window to pick up another championship.

tebman
11-23-2005, 12:21 PM
I'm not concerned with a little risk in a 4-5 year deal because I'm not worried about 2008, 2009 or 2010....I'm worried about 2006 and 2007 while we have a stud starting rotation....that's our window to pick up another championship.
Until I read that I hadn't thought about it that plainly, but you're absolutely right. The Sox have a group of pitchers who are currently at the top of their game, and who knows when we'll have that kind of depth again. The next couple of years really is the window to pick up another championship.

As for 2008-2010, the farm system is apparently doing a fine job recruiting and nurturing quality pitchers. Barring a personnel screwup of biblical proportions, the Sox should be in good shape for the next several years.

RKMeibalane
11-23-2005, 12:23 PM
The Sox need to bring Konerko back. I might feel differently if Thomas' health weren't such a question mark. The same can be said of Jim Thome, who has been in and out of the Phillies lineup for the past two seasons, and has become expendable because Ryan Howard. I wonder if the Phillies would like to trade the young man.

In all seriousness, Konerko is the only reliable power hitter in the Sox lineup. I know that Dye had a great season, and that Crede showed signs of finally reaching his potential during the post-season, but the Sox have to begin filling in some of the holes and question marks that they have in order to be prepared for 2006. It won't do the Sox any good to stand pat and allow the rest of the American League to improve around them while they do nothing. I'm sure Williams knows this and is working on a solution, but something needs to be done.

Jurr
11-23-2005, 12:32 PM
Paulie and his agent are smoking crack if they think that MLB clubs are going to spend a fortune on his ass. Look how pathetic the returns were for some of those big contracts last year. Delgado? Beltran? Beltre? Pavano? The list goes ONNNN and ONNNNN!!!

Domeshot17
11-23-2005, 01:08 PM
well, first off CARLOS BELTRAN DOESNT DESERVE CARLOS BELTRAN MONEY.


For all the knocks Paulie has on being inconsistent, at the end of the season, and his 600 or so at bats, he hits 270-40-100. Doesnt really matter how he gets there, hes there. Thats really an unfair knock. As much as I love the guy, Crede defines inconsisten. stretches of 300 average ball followed by a 0.75 average for 70 at bats. Most players in baseball hitting under 290 have months at 230 and months at 330.

Here is something overlooked. NO MATTER WHERE HE HITS THEM, at age 29, PK Has 210 Home runs.

Lets say he plays until he is 38, he plays 1b and can DH, so that is not out of the box to think. He needs to hit between 36-37 homers a year to get to 500.
Its no lock, but its not a bad stretch either
If he goes: 41-41-41-38-37-36, and then hits 19 a year for 3 years, hes at 500 even. Minus an Injury hes almost a deadlock for 400+. And thats saying he only plays until hes 38. If he plays until hes 40, and gets 12 a year, that can provide for any down power years. ITs not out of the realm to think the guy could hit 500.

In the next 10 years, if KW brings back frank and Paulie, we could have 2 500 home run and probably HOF's on the team.

So yah, He actually is on that superstar level, just does not seem like it. 2nd &5th in HR's 2 years in a row, 10th and 9th in slugging consecutively,6th in Rbis in 2004,5th in Walks this year, 9th in OPS, 10th in Total Bases, 6th in IBB, and a 2 time all star with a MAJOR snub last year and a top 10 mvp vote. The last 2 seasons, following the 2003 disaster, Paulie has taken his game to an ENTIRELY new level.

Pay Him, give him for 52/4 years with 2 option years and let him keep rolling.

kittle42
11-23-2005, 01:34 PM
The same Vlad who couldn't get a hit to save his teams life in the playoffs? Konerko proved to be a money player in crunch time, Vlad didn't.

You're not seriously saying Konerko is worth as much as Guerrero, are you?

maurice
11-23-2005, 01:50 PM
he is asking for money similar to what delgado got, and certainly the argument can be made that they are similar levels of quality.

:?:
I can't contradict the rest of what you've said, but this is nuts. Delgado is a much, much better player than Konerko.

maurice
11-23-2005, 02:06 PM
well, first off CARLOS BELTRAN DOESNT DESERVE CARLOS BELTRAN MONEY.

True. There are lots of overpaid guys in MLB.

For all the knocks Paulie has on being inconsistent, at the end of the season, and his 600 or so at bats, he hits 270-40-100. Doesnt really matter how he gets there, hes there. Thats really an unfair knock.

Why is it "unfair"? It's obviously true. In retrospect, the Sox played great during the first 2 months of the season despite having an automatic out in the cleanup spot. That was extremely fortunate and unlikely to happen again. For example, Konerko's inconsistency absolutely killed the Sox in 2003.

As much as I love the guy, Crede defines inconsisten[cy].

Also true, but Crede's not asking for 5 years at $13+ mil. / year. Also, when Crede's sucking at the plate, he usually gives you very good D at 3B.

ITs not out of the realm to think the guy could hit 500.

So? That doesn't make him worth $13+ mil. / year.

HR total is one of the most overrated stats in baseball. Good hitters have lots of really bad ABs because "chicks dig the longball."

In the next 10 years, if KW brings back frank and Paulie, we could have 2 500 home run and probably HOF's on the team.

1. After the steroid era, 500 HR no longer makes you a lock for the HOF.
2. Unlike Thomas, Konerko is not remotely a HOF player.

So yah, He actually is on that superstar level, just does not seem like it.

I haven't done this in awhile, but here goes. In what probably was a career year, Konerko ranked as follows in ALL major statistical categories:
AVE - 67th
OBP - 32nd
SLG - 21st
OPS - 25th
2B - 148th
3B - last
HR - 8th
RBI - 27th
R - 29th
SB - last

. . . all while playing the least important defensive position. It doesn't "seem like" he's a superstar, because he's not remotely a "superstar." He's just one of the top FA sluggers in a very poor year for FA sluggers.

wdelaney72
11-23-2005, 02:21 PM
The same Vlad who couldn't get a hit to save his teams life in the playoffs? Konerko proved to be a money player in crunch time, Vlad didn't.

While you make a good point, I think I have to attribute that statistic more to our pitching dominance as opposed to Vlad's hitting ineptitude.

CluelessJoe1919
11-23-2005, 02:55 PM
Boston has a gaping hole at first base and all kinds of money to spend. I haven't heard a peep out of them going after Konerko of late. I think that's the only team that could pluck him away from the Sox.
I'm like you guys: I'd love to have Paulie back, but anything over $12 million a year would get them into that dangerous overpaying situation.

Hitmen77
11-23-2005, 02:55 PM
HR total is one of the most overrated stats in baseball. Good hitters have lots of really bad ABs because "chicks dig the longball."

1. After the steroid era, 500 HR no longer makes you a lock for the HOF.



:shammy Hey man, are you talking about lovable old me?

SOXSINCE'70
11-23-2005, 06:35 PM
people say he is consistant, but i think he is consistantly inconsistant.

Agreed.For every HR or RBI,there are many GIDP's I can remember.
It comes down to this;if Konerko wants to play in a city where fans
will treat him as a hero and bare with him when he goes through
bad (and good) streaks,he'll stay here.Or go to Anaheim (or wherever)
and be the "savior" who has failed if the team does not advance to the WS.

DSpivack
11-23-2005, 06:42 PM
Offer him $55 over 5... then go get Thome... Then that would end any ammo Cubs fans thought they had about our park being empty...

Well, we got Thome.

Domeshot17
11-24-2005, 12:50 AM
Just a thought here, to all those who were upset about his slow start for average, he did lead the club in home runs rbis slugging and was still up there in OBP. You almost always know what you are going to get from the guy every year. 275 average, 35-40 Home Runs, 100+ Rbi, 350+ OBP, 900+ OPS, solid D.

The HOF'ers are doing what they can to make sure the Steroid era doesnt get the wrong people into the Hall. I honestly think a guy who hits 500 and never tests positive will get in. If Paulie finished his Career say career .274 hitter (hes .279 now) with 512 home runs 2300 hits 1500 Rbis and 1000 walks, he has a very legit shot at the hall. He would not be a lock like the big hurt, but he would be probably a 2nd or 3rd ballot in.

Maurice, curious as to what you were comparing Paulies numbers too with the rankings, I know it wasnt the season totals, was it all time single season ranks?

I compared Paulie and Delgados stats for the last 2 years and this is how they stack up

hits: Paulie 319 Delgado 280
HR: Paulie 81 Delgado 65
Runs: Paulie 182 Delgado 155
RBI Paulie 280 Delgado 214
Walks: Paulie 150 Delgado 144
K's: Paulie 216 Delgado 236
OBP: Paulie .367 Delgado .385
Slugging: Paulie .535 Delgado .558
OPS: Paulie .902 Delgado .943
Avg: Paulie .280 Delgado .285
Doubles: Paulie 46 Delgado 67

Now Delgado missed about 120 At Bats in 2004, so thats why some numbers are lower but the OPS and etc. are better. Probably puts about 8 more Home Runs, 30 more runs, 25 more rbi 25 more Ks and 7 more doubles. Factor those in, and it still very very close. So I think that is where Paulie's agent thinks he deserves close to delgado money, because he is posting close to delgado stats, combined with the demand over the supply and thats estimated 13 mil a year.

Comparing Paulie to the Delgado of 4 years ago, maybe one of the top 4 raw hitters in the game, isnt fair, but over the last 2 years, Its pretty even.

maurice
11-28-2005, 05:19 PM
Sorry for the late reply, but I was enjoying my Thanksgiving break.

Maurice, curious as to what you were comparing Paulies numbers too with the rankings, I know it wasnt the season totals, was it all time single season ranks?

I'll try to make this as clear as possible. When you compare Konerko's 2005 regular season totals v. all other regular MLB position players in 2005, he ranked 67th in AVE, 32nd in OBP, 21st in SLG, 25th in OPS, 148th in 2B, last in 3B, 8th in HR, 27th in RBI, 29th in R, and last in SB. In other words, even in one of his best seasons, Konerko is not an elite hitter. He just hits a lot of HR in a very HR-hitter-friendly ballpark.

I compared Paulie and Delgados stats for the last 2 years and this is how they stack up

As you pointed out, Delgado played only 128 games in 2004 v. Konerko's 155 games. As a result, Delgado had only 979 ABs in the 2-year period v. Konerko's 1,138 ABs. That explains the difference in the totals, though Delgado still had way more 2B and about the same # of BB. Every one of the (more relevant) rate stats you posted favor Delgado:
OBP: Paulie .367 Delgado .385
Slugging: Paulie .535 Delgado .558
OPS: Paulie .902 Delgado .943
Avg: Paulie .280 Delgado .285

Moreover, Delgado has posted a .900+ OPS every season since 1998 and was 1.000+ twice. Konerko has only one .900+ OPS season, this year's .909. Finally, Konerko did his damage in a very HR friendly ball park, and did significantly worse on the road. In other words, Delgado > Konerko.

It's academic at this point, since Delgado is off the market.

fquaye149
11-28-2005, 06:10 PM
Just a thought here, to all those who were upset about his slow start for average, he did lead the club in home runs rbis slugging and was still up there in OBP. You almost always know what you are going to get from the guy every year. 275 average, 35-40 Home Runs, 100+ Rbi, 350+ OBP, 900+ OPS, solid D.

The HOF'ers are doing what they can to make sure the Steroid era doesnt get the wrong people into the Hall. I honestly think a guy who hits 500 and never tests positive will get in. If Paulie finished his Career say career .274 hitter (hes .279 now) with 512 home runs 2300 hits 1500 Rbis and 1000 walks, he has a very legit shot at the hall. He would not be a lock like the big hurt, but he would be probably a 2nd or 3rd ballot in.

Maurice, curious as to what you were comparing Paulies numbers too with the rankings, I know it wasnt the season totals, was it all time single season ranks?

I compared Paulie and Delgados stats for the last 2 years and this is how they stack up

hits: Paulie 319 Delgado 280
HR: Paulie 81 Delgado 65
Runs: Paulie 182 Delgado 155
RBI Paulie 280 Delgado 214
Walks: Paulie 150 Delgado 144
K's: Paulie 216 Delgado 236
OBP: Paulie .367 Delgado .385
Slugging: Paulie .535 Delgado .558
OPS: Paulie .902 Delgado .943
Avg: Paulie .280 Delgado .285
Doubles: Paulie 46 Delgado 67

Now Delgado missed about 120 At Bats in 2004, so thats why some numbers are lower but the OPS and etc. are better. Probably puts about 8 more Home Runs, 30 more runs, 25 more rbi 25 more Ks and 7 more doubles. Factor those in, and it still very very close. So I think that is where Paulie's agent thinks he deserves close to delgado money, because he is posting close to delgado stats, combined with the demand over the supply and thats estimated 13 mil a year.

Comparing Paulie to the Delgado of 4 years ago, maybe one of the top 4 raw hitters in the game, isnt fair, but over the last 2 years, Its pretty even.

Um... what? You're going to compare Delgado of the past TWO years (the timespan that begins with his injury-plagued 2004, statistically a vast aberration that seems not to have effected his 2005) with Konerko of the past two years (his best)?

Gee...while we're at it, let's compare Thome's 2004-2005 to Carlos Lee's 2004-2005. Clearly they are similar caliber hitters.....:rolleyes: