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Fenway
11-22-2005, 10:30 AM
Looking at the Miami Herald you get a sense that the Marlins future in South Florida is dismal at best.

There is no way the State of Florida is putting up money for a stadium with all the hurricane damage the past 2 years. Frankly I question if the Marlins could ever draw? Unlike the fire sale of 1998, the 2003 champions tried to keep as much of the team together and and did stay in contention for a wild card until the end. Yet they could not draw.

Only been to Dolphins Stadium for football and I remember one night in October for a Patriots game the humidity was awful and I can only imagine how bad it must be in July.

Mark my words, Loria will somehow try to move the team to The Meadowlands as that was his orginal idea with the Expos. Selig may go along with that to make NYC a three team market.

Miami Herald columnist is brutal this morning

We deserve to lose this baseball team (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/columnists/dan_le_batard/13230541.htm)

We are, bar none, the worst major-league city in North America.

We are the only area anywhere on this continent that could draw 800,000 fans below league average for a 2004 defending champion that was playoff-relevant until the season's last month.

Tampa Bay and Kansas City were the only two major-league markets with worse attendance than Florida's last season, but at least their excuse was last place, the two worst records in the league and a combined 71 games out of first.

If the Devil Rays and Royals had been one game ahead of Roger Clemens for the wild card with a month remaining, as the Marlins were, they would have been filling their stadiums as if the seats were made of cash. But last-place Pittsburgh, 33 games out, drew more fans per game than Florida last season. So did last-place Seattle, 26 games out. And last-place Colorado, which fielded a Triple A team last season

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 10:37 AM
Looking at the Miami Herald you get a sense that the Marlins future in South Florida is dismal at best.

There is no way the State of Florida is putting up money for a stadium with all the hurricane damage the past 2 years. Frankly I question if the Marlins could ever draw? Unlike the fire sale of 1998, the 2003 champions tried to keep as much of the team together and and did stay in contention for a wild card until the end. Yet they could not draw.

Only been to Dolphins Stadium for football and I remember one night in October for a Patriots game the humidity was awful and I can only imagine how bad it must be in July.

Mark my words, Loria will somehow try to move the team to The Meadowlands as that was his orginal idea with the Expos. Selig may go along with that to make NYC a three team market.

Miami Herald columnist is brutal this morning

We deserve to lose this baseball team (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/columnists/dan_le_batard/13230541.htm)

That would be a great thing for baseball. 3 teams in NY will do more than any amount of revenue sharing to put a long-term drag on Spankee spending.

Baby Fisk
11-22-2005, 10:41 AM
http://www.ket.org/images/nola/ONON/ONON__001835.1151647.200x150.jpg
"Prediction: In five years or less, the only major league baseball played in Florida will be during the month of March. What do you say to that, Jack Germond?!"

The "third NY team" proposal is very intriguing, and would not alter the divisions either. If Angelos could accept another team in his territory, could Steinbrenner and Wilpon be convinced to accept the same?

Fenway
11-22-2005, 10:45 AM
That would be a great thing for baseball. 3 teams in NY will do more than any amount of revenue sharing to put a long-term drag on Spankee spending.

and now the Mets have started there own network. They obviously have money to burn as their sportsdesk studio will be ground level in Rockerfeller Center

http://sportsnetnewyork.com/about.asp
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Truth is you divide New York THREE ways, each team would still have a bigger market share than any other market.

[url="http://sportsnetnewyork.com/images/about-photo.jpg"] (http://sportsnetnewyork.com/images/about-photo.jpg)

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 10:52 AM
and now the Mets have started there own network. They obviously have money to burn as their sportsdesk studio will be ground level in Rockerfeller Center

http://sportsnetnewyork.com/about.asp

Truth is you divide New York THREE ways, each team would still have a bigger market share than any other market.



But it's a lot closer. IIRC isn't NY like 28M as a market? I thought that was #1 and LA #2 at like 18M. So dividing NY in 3 would be the same as LA in 2 or 1 of Chicago (9M).

Tekijawa
11-22-2005, 11:25 AM
The Brooklyn Marlins! I like it! Get Jay-Z on the phone... let's get this done!

Fenway
11-22-2005, 11:31 AM
The late Doug Pappas explains how a move into an existing market would work

Major League Rules. These include the rules establishing teams' territories and governing franchise moves, expansion and discipline. They also include the draft and waiver provisions, which I didn't have time to review thoroughly

Territorial Limits: Expanded between the 1990 and 1994 Major League Rules to include not just a club's home city, but also surrounding counties. Of particular interest in this respect:

• The Orioles' territory includes Anne Arundel, Howard, Carroll and Harford Counties in Maryland;

• The Marlins' major league territory includes Palm Beach County;

• The Dodgers' and Angels' territory includes Orange, Ventura and Los Angeles Counties;

• The Yankees' and Mets' territory includes New York City, plus Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and Rockland Counties in New York; Fairfield County south of I-84 and west of SR 58 in Connecticut; and Bergen, Hudson, Essex and Union Counties in New Jersey;

• The Athletics' territory includes Alameda and Contra Costa Counties;

• The Phillies' territory includes Gloucester, Camden and Burlington Counties in New Jersey;

• The Giants' territory includes San Francisco, San Mateo, Santa Cruz, Monterey and Marin Counties, plus Santa Clara County with respect to another major league team.

Under Rule 1(c), either league can move into a territory belonging to a club in the other league, so long as (a) 3/4 of the affected league's teams consent; (b) the two parks are at least five air miles apart unless the two clubs mutually agree otherwise; (c) the newcomer pays the existing club $100,000 plus half of any previous indemnification to invade the territory; and (d) the move leaves no more than two clubs in the territory. This provision dates to late 1960, when it was adopted to establish the terms for the expansion Los Angeles Angels to play in the territory claimed by the Dodgers in 1958.

As additional territorial protection, Rule 52 allows a major league club to block any other major or minor league clubs from playing within 15 miles of its territory without permission.



Of course the rules could be changed if Selig wants it.

http://roadsidephotos.sabr.org/baseball/02-4rules.htm

He also looked at market size and New York is far ahead
http://home.nycap.rr.com/nickandaj/marketsize.html

A NL team in New Jersey would not hurt the Mets as they draw from Queens, Brooklyn and Long Island

The Yankees do draw from Northern New Jersey but their base is still Westchester, Western Connecticut and upstate.

To keep the Yankees and Mets happy, a NJ team could split their tv rights between the Yankees and Mets networks or go with MSG that no longer has baseball.

It is the safest bet on the table on where to move a team. Vegas is growing but you go 20 miles from the strip you looking at tumbleweeds. Sacremento and Charlotte are just too small.

asindc
11-22-2005, 11:35 AM
http://www.ket.org/images/nola/ONON/ONON__001835.1151647.200x150.jpg
If Angelos could accept another team in his territory, could Steinbrenner and Wilpon be convinced to accept the same?

Actually, a third team in the NY market wouldn't impact the O's at all. Milwaukee is closer to Chicago than Northern NJ is to Balt. (at least a 3-hr. drive), so Angelos would not squawk at all about this.

Fenway
11-22-2005, 11:54 AM
Some raw figures from the 2000 US Census

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_statistical_are as_by_population


Splitting NY 3 ways would still give each team 6,000,000 the same as LA is now

The biggest market without a team is Portland, OR


In any event it seems obvious that Florida was a horrible market for MLB. I always suspected it would be a hard sell based on the horrible attendance the Florida State League has had over the years. Tampa may have 2.3 million but a good percentage of that population is on fixed income.

Bottom line, the Marlins have somehow won 2 World Series since their birth in 1993 and yet failed to support the club. In New Jersey they would draw, and adding a third team levels the playing field as far as revenue is concerned.

SoxSpeed22
11-22-2005, 12:00 PM
Come on, Las Vegas! But that would have to be a dome. Portland or Buffalo would work well too.
Historically, Buffalo was one of the cities that was nearly awarded one of the '93 expansion teams. Instead, they went to Denver and Miami. I wonder if they're thinking about Kentucky or Tennessee?

whitesoxwilkes
11-22-2005, 12:05 PM
Come on, Las Vegas! But that would have to be a dome. Portland or Buffalo would work well too.
Historically, Buffalo was one of the cities that was nearly awarded one of the '93 expansion teams. Instead, they went to Denver and Miami. I wonder if they're thinking about Kentucky or Tennessee?

Buffalo has a major-league ready minor league park that they built in the early 1990s. The concern though is that Buffalo in April is just as bad as Chicago tempwise...and sometimes with a little snow thrown in.

I've always thought Portland, Vegas or Memphis would all be good venues for teams.

ChiSoxRowand
11-22-2005, 12:08 PM
They won't end up in New York. Steinbrenner will never allow it, and we know how much power he has. I don't know any other good sites except Portland. IMO Vegas isn't a good destination, and they wouldn't go to New Orleans. Maybe San Antonio?

Fenway
11-22-2005, 12:16 PM
Buffalo should have been awarded the team that wound up in Montreal. Erie County had the money set aside for a dome stadium in Lancaster, NY.

But Buffalo as an area was dealt a blow when Bethlehem Steel without warning shut down its massive Lackawanna, NY mill and that in turn cause many other factories to close ( especially in the auto industry )

On Dec. 27, 1982, amid Christmas week gaiety, Lackawanna was stunned by an announcement from Bethlehem Steel: Lackawanna’s integrated steelmaking operations, primary mills and hot strip mill, as well as certain finishing facilities will be terminated. So would the jobs for 7,300 workers.



In 1970 the Buffalo area was close to 2,000,000 now it is nearly half that and smaller than Providence.

Tragic what happened there.

Footnote that Paulwny may recall

Howard Cosell was nearly killed by an angry mob at a Monday Night Game at Rich Stadium over comments he made.

He said on MNF "Buffalo, NY, the armpit of America...with no hope of recovery...."

Old Howard was not the diplomat

http://www.osuzbt.com/images/web01070271a.jpg

getonbckthr
11-22-2005, 12:39 PM
I kind of want the Marlins to move to Knoxville, Tennessee. Down there they are extremely passionate about their sport teams whether college (Volunteers) or pro teams (Titans). They will not have an attendance problem therefor causing them to be able to spend money and compete for more than a season or two at at a time before completely restructuring the team.

nccwsfan
11-22-2005, 12:54 PM
Actually, a third team in the NY market wouldn't impact the O's at all. Milwaukee is closer to Chicago than Northern NJ is to Balt. (at least a 3-hr. drive), so Angelos would not squawk at all about this.

I think he was referring to the fact that Angelos had begrudgingly accepted the Nationals franchise into the Baltimore/DC area.

Interesting thought on adding a 3rd team to the area (New Jersey Marlins?), but I would think that's a tough sell in getting Steinbrenner or Wilpon to agree to this.

I'd love to see them here (NC), but that's not going to happen. They would be diluted in Charlotte and broad support wouldn't be there in Raleigh/Durham....JMO

Joosh
11-22-2005, 01:11 PM
How about Indiana?

And then we can name them the Indianapolis Green Sox.

Fenway
11-22-2005, 01:36 PM
Marlins just had a press conference and the fans on the Marlins board are crying.

http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=53489&st=50


The team president said the team will explore relocation

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp?c_id=fla

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 01:48 PM
Some interesting comments from the Marlins prez per the Marlins board:

- Team won't renew lease, will explore relocation for 2008. MLB has approved their efforts. They'll try to stay in S. FLA.
- Loria will not sell
- Payroll will match revenue, including a "significant market correction", effective immediately
- They've given up talking with the state & city, but will continue to talk with Miami Dade county


Quote from Marlinsbaseball.com "I am jealous of the Devil Rays.....":o:

Fenway
11-22-2005, 01:52 PM
Quote from Marlinsbaseball.com "I am jealous of the Devil Rays.....":o:

Loria and Sampson killed the Expos and now the Marlins

The time frame Sampson gives would make it easy for New Jersey to get the ballpark built.

Baby Fisk
11-22-2005, 02:00 PM
Wow, just wow. :o:

asindc
11-22-2005, 02:01 PM
I think he was referring to the fact that Angelos had begrudgingly accepted the Nationals franchise into the Baltimore/DC area.

I realize that, but I still think this is an entirely different situation. Even the most conservative estimate put the O's fan base at about 20% from the DC area. Camden Yards is only 45 minutes from downtown DC (30 minutes from my house). A third team in the NY/NJ area simply would not impact the O's franchise in any way that the Nats does.

TheOldRoman
11-22-2005, 02:09 PM
I realize that, but I still think this is an entirely different situation. Even the most conservative estimate put the O's fan base at about 20% from the DC area. Camden Yards is only 45 minutes from downtown DC (30 minutes from my house). A third team in the NY/NJ area simply would not impact the O's franchise in any way that the Nats does.
NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THE ORIOLES!!!
He used the O's/Nats thing as a reference. He is saying the situation is similar in that the Mets and Yankees would possibly have fans taken away from them.

Baby Fisk
11-22-2005, 02:13 PM
NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THE ORIOLES!!!
He used the O's/Nats thing as a reference. He is saying the situation is similar in that the Mets and Yankees would possibly have fans taken away from them.
Thank you! :cool:

nccwsfan
11-22-2005, 02:25 PM
Loria and Sampson killed the Expos and now the Marlins.

Agree that they killed the Expos, respectfully disagree that they've killed the Marlins. The fans in South Florida are the ones to blame for this, and honestly it's looking like they don't deserve a team. Unlike Wayne Huizenga, who dismantled the 97' championship team overnight, Loria kept the team core around for 04' and 05'. Despite the fact that they remained competitive during those years the attendance was still near the bottom of the barrel. Why should Loria be expected to keep these players around, knowing that he'll lose them eventually?

They've come close to building a new ballpark, but it keeps getting shot down by Florida legislators, and with the recent hurricanes it only puts this issue further down the priority list. I hate to see franchises leave, but this won't create nearly as much of a stir as it did here in 87' & 88'.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 02:28 PM
Loria and Sampson killed the Expos and now the Marlins

The time frame Sampson gives would make it easy for New Jersey to get the ballpark built.

Tough to say Loria killed the Marlins. He's spent $$$ and had a contending team, and when you do that with a team that's won 2 titles in a decade, you'd expect some support. Not his fault that Florida has been devastated by hurricanes and that people don't come out.

Fenway
11-22-2005, 03:08 PM
Agree that they killed the Expos, respectfully disagree that they've killed the Marlins. The fans in South Florida are the ones to blame for this, and honestly it's looking like they don't deserve a team.

I will concede that Loria and sampson leave a bad taste in my mouth after Montreal.

Still there wasn't that much of a spike in attendance after they won in 2003. But I got to ask this question. If a Robert Kraft can build a stadium himself with no help for a team that plays 81 games, why do baseball owners insist that a city or state build them one for 81 games?

asindc
11-22-2005, 03:14 PM
NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THE ORIOLES!!!
He used the O's/Nats thing as a reference. He is saying the situation is similar in that the Mets and Yankees would possibly have fans taken away from them.

My misunderstanding. I reread Baby Fisk's post, and I extend my apology to him.

Fenway
11-22-2005, 03:22 PM
Marlins owner statement

Good afternoon. Thank you all for coming. I apologize for not being able to be with you in person.


A little while ago, we called Mayor Carlos Alvarez, County Commission Chair Joe Martinez and County Manager George Burgess to thank them for their efforts in trying to get a baseball stadium in Miami.

Unfortunately, we were not successful. And no longer can baseball in South Florida be assured.

It is now clear to us that there will be no baseball stadium in the city of Miami. So, we must begin to explore other options.

Therefore, we will expand our search beyond the city of Miami, and we will examine other options in the South Florida area, as well.

Further, the Florida Marlins yesterday asked for and received permission from Major League Baseball to explore relocation.

What does this mean? It does not mean that the Marlins are necessarily leaving South Florida.

It does mean, however, that we need to seriously explore all of our options, including those in other markets. As part of this process, I anticipate we will be engaging in discussions with other cities.

For the record, we were prepared to contribute the fourth largest financial commitment by a baseball team for a new baseball-only facility. This contribution would have been through up-front payments and annual rent.

Unfortunately, here we are, four years after purchasing the Marlins, with no new stadium and no sure prospects on the horizon for such a facility.

We must now acknowledge that Miami-the gateway to the Americas-could well be the first American city in 35 years to see its baseball franchise leave. And people in Washington, D.C. know very well how long it took to get a team back.

Before I close, I want to speak for a moment to our fans. I want you to know that we tried very hard to make a new stadium a reality. As so many of you have told me over the past few years, baseball is the best family game there is. I see this every time I look around and see all of you there. It's really a sport for all ages, that all of us get to enjoy-no matter how old we are.

The many fans I've spoken with know how much I love to win. We all worked very hard to bring not only a World Series championship here just two years ago, but also a team that had a real chance of winning every year. If we had had fewer injuries and a bit more luck this past season, I believe we would have been playing in October again.

I want to personally thank all our fans, especially our season ticket holders and those other loyal fans who expressed their support by personally coming out to see our games. Thank you again for your support and your many kind words of encouragement.



http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051122&content_id=1271440&vkey=news_fla&fext=.jsp&c_id=fla

Baby Fisk
11-22-2005, 03:25 PM
My misunderstanding. I reread Baby Fisk's post, and I extend my apology to him.No need. It's cool. :cheers:

And if Loria's heart truly belongs to Miami, why is he not seeking out private financing to build a covered ballpark that his beloved Marlin fans so rightly deserve? Instead, we get to watch the latest sorry round of stadium extortion.

Lip Man 1
11-22-2005, 05:01 PM
The area should never have been granted a franchise in the first place. To many other things to do in the summer months and the constant threat of rain is an issue.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
11-22-2005, 05:10 PM
The area should never have been granted a franchise in the first place. To many other things to do in the summer months and the constant threat of rain is an issue.

LipThe fact of the matter is that there are not 30 cities capable of supporting a baseball team. So where would you move the Marlins? Portland? New Jersey is probably the only place that could support a team, and it's doubtful that the Yankees and Mets will allow that without a huge extortion payment.

samram
11-22-2005, 07:46 PM
The fact of the matter is that there are not 30 cities capable of supporting a baseball team. So where would you move the Marlins? Portland? New Jersey is probably the only place that could support a team, and it's doubtful that the Yankees and Mets will allow that without a huge extortion payment.

Is Vegas an option or has Bud turned that into a nonstarter? If they want to stay in Florida, I think Jacksonville could be an option as well. It's the number 13 city in the US now and maybe they could strengthen the rivalry with the Braves. I also think Louiville and Nashville are possibilities, but I'm not sure what the baseball interest is in those spots.

nccwsfan
11-22-2005, 08:02 PM
Is Vegas an option or has Bud turned that into a nonstarter? If they want to stay in Florida, I think Jacksonville could be an option as well. It's the number 13 city in the US now and maybe they could strengthen the rivalry with the Braves. I also think Louiville and Nashville are possibilities, but I'm not sure what the baseball interest is in those spots.

My guess is that they'll try to work out some sort of deal with Las Vegas. The Marlins have the ability to stay in South Florida until 2010, which gives another region 12-24 months to get something done. I would hope that this lights a candle under Florida's backside, but more than likely I see LV stepping up and taking advantage of this opportunity.

If not there maybe Portland- apparently there are more issues in the way for them getting a team...

monkeypants
11-22-2005, 08:36 PM
I realize that the odds are one in a billion but I'd like to see the Marlins relocated to Monterrey, Mexico. The city and surrounding area's population is over 2.5 million. Plus they have a strong history of supporting baseball. If Bud was serious about spreading baseball throughout the world, this would be a good first step. But since the money and TV revenue aren't there I realize this is not going to happen.

chaerulez
11-22-2005, 08:55 PM
If the move to Las Vegas or Portland I'd like to see how the divisions realign.

elrod
11-22-2005, 09:02 PM
Some people made the same argument about attendance and the White Sox. But the Sox attendance in 2005 was 28,924/game, which was 7th out of 14 AL teams. In 2004, it was 23,834 (8th). In 2003, it was 23,945 (9th). In 2002, 20,703 (10th). In 2001, 21,805 (12th). And in 2000, it was 24,047 (9th). Each year our attendance has gone up in rank, and this year it went up significantly in seats. I imagine next year the average will break 30,000 for the first time since 1994, unless the team falls into the toilet.

The Marlins seemed to spin their wheels, both in absolute and relative terms. In 2005, they drew 22,872 (15th of 16). In 2004, 21,539 (14th). In 2003, the World Series year, they only drew 16,089 (15th). In 2002, while still rebuilding from post-1997, they drew only 10,038 (15th). In 2001, they drew 15,765 (15th) and in 2000, 15,041 (15th). Relatively speaking, they drew better in 2004 and 2005 than before (remember, the Expos were always 16th until 2005. In 2004 and 2005, they actually surpassed another team: Pittsburgh, with its shiny new PNC park to boot!

The bottom line is the Marlins destroyed their attendance after 1997 (went from 5th to 13th in one year) and didn't really recover until AFTER their 2003 World Series win. Things have gotten a little better for them in 2004 and 2005, both relatively and absolutely. But for a team that consistently competes for a playoff spot in September to draw 15th of 16 teams is a bad sign.

dcb33
11-22-2005, 10:17 PM
If the move to Las Vegas or Portland I'd like to see how the divisions realign.

It'd be pretty easy to realign the NL if the Marlins moved west.

For example:
Marlins franchise moves to NL West
Colorado moves to NL Central
Cincinnati and Pittsburgh move to NL East

Viva Medias B's
11-22-2005, 11:17 PM
I wonder if Orlando would be a place for the Marlins to go. Granted, you would have the same stadium funding issue with the Florida legislature. But, in general, do you think Orlando would be more palatable than South Florida?

NWSox
11-22-2005, 11:26 PM
I think Portland is farther along and has fewer obstacles than the other contenders. The Portland group is well organized and has been working on this for a few years. Our minor league park could house the team for a year or two. The state legislature has already approved a financing package (much of it depends on questionable assumptions about taxing player salaries) for a stadium, but the city will not commit any funds and is hesistant to publicly support the initiative given school funding issues, etc. People here are avid Mariners fans and if I recall the TV ratings for games are fairly strong given that they are 3 hours away.

That being said, I don't believe MLB wants a franchise in Portland, and I agree with their doubts about the viability of the market. Squeezing in another franchise along the West Coast in an area where people have a lot of other interests doesn't seem like a long term solution. I think Vegas and Monterrey are far more attractive, but each has its own issues (I'm not sure Loria would move his team to Mexico). If the league gets over the gambling issues, Vegas is the frontrunner. I think Loria likes Vegas as well.

Banix12
11-22-2005, 11:55 PM
Some people made the same argument about attendance and the White Sox. But the Sox attendance in 2005 was 28,924/game, which was 7th out of 14 AL teams. In 2004, it was 23,834 (8th). In 2003, it was 23,945 (9th). In 2002, 20,703 (10th). In 2001, 21,805 (12th). And in 2000, it was 24,047 (9th). Each year our attendance has gone up in rank, and this year it went up significantly in seats. I imagine next year the average will break 30,000 for the first time since 1994, unless the team falls into the toilet.

The Marlins seemed to spin their wheels, both in absolute and relative terms. In 2005, they drew 22,872 (15th of 16). In 2004, 21,539 (14th). In 2003, the World Series year, they only drew 16,089 (15th). In 2002, while still rebuilding from post-1997, they drew only 10,038 (15th). In 2001, they drew 15,765 (15th) and in 2000, 15,041 (15th). Relatively speaking, they drew better in 2004 and 2005 than before (remember, the Expos were always 16th until 2005. In 2004 and 2005, they actually surpassed another team: Pittsburgh, with its shiny new PNC park to boot!

The bottom line is the Marlins destroyed their attendance after 1997 (went from 5th to 13th in one year) and didn't really recover until AFTER their 2003 World Series win. Things have gotten a little better for them in 2004 and 2005, both relatively and absolutely. But for a team that consistently competes for a playoff spot in September to draw 15th of 16 teams is a bad sign.


good post. I can't really put too much blame on Loria killing the Marlins because Huizenga basically created an unrepairable situation in South Florida when he gutted the team after 1997. He took a golden chance to build up his team's fanbase and instead used it to alienate what fans he the marlins had, possibly for life.

Portland sounds like the lowest hassle to move to. New York/New Jersey sounds like the best situation to build a long term base for the team, but possibly one of the toughest ones to work out because of the other owners. If done correctly I think Las Vegas could be an amazing place to put a team (I can just imagine the crazy stadium plans that are going to be suggested).

I think they end up in Portland but I really think Las Vegas is worth investigating further. I would even go so far as to give the team to Vegas on a trial basis as a test.

Viva Medias B's
11-23-2005, 07:23 AM
I think they end up in Portland but I really think Las Vegas is worth investigating further. I would even go so far as to give the team to Vegas on a trial basis as a test.

Could the Mariners object to this?

Kogs35
11-23-2005, 07:45 AM
Could the Mariners object to this?

yes, just like the yankees,mets,and phillies could object to a team in nj

nccwsfan
11-23-2005, 08:55 AM
I wonder if Orlando would be a place for the Marlins to go. Granted, you would have the same stadium funding issue with the Florida legislature. But, in general, do you think Orlando would be more palatable than South Florida?

I don't see it happening, based on the Florida politicians not funding any part of a new ballpark and the fact that there would be two teams in Central Florida. The Devil Rays are having enough problems of their own without having to worry about having another team 1 1/2 away...

MiamiSpartan
11-23-2005, 10:21 AM
Very sad. Blame to State legislature for not ponying up the $30 mil they needed for the ballpark last year. Now they're all scrambling around to find the money. Also the fans for staying away in droves even during playoff runs. It would suck to live in a city without baseball, but at least the Sox' success would lessen the pain...

It'd be nice if the White Sox could pick up a couple of their players, because they are sitting on a lot of talent here....

Flight #24
11-23-2005, 10:41 AM
Very sad. Blame to State legislature for not ponying up the $30 mil they needed for the ballpark last year. Now they're all scrambling around to find the money. Also the fans for staying away in droves even during playoff runs. It would suck to live in a city without baseball, but at least the Sox' success would lessen the pain...

It'd be nice if the White Sox could pick up a couple of their players, because they are sitting on a lot of talent here....

Tough to blame legislature that's dealing with billions in hurricane damage for not allocating money to fund a baseball stadium. Also tough to blame the team. The one group I can blame is the fans who apparently haven't come out to support a team with 2 recent titles and a number of years contending, and one that made a solid payroll commitment. Sucks, but apparently there just isn't the support necessary to warrant a major league team.

Baby Fisk
11-23-2005, 10:50 AM
If Loria wants the team to stay in Florida, he would be doing whatever is necessary to assemble enough private financing for a park. Instead, he's pushing all the blame on the legislators. You just can't blame the legislators for this.

Fenway
11-23-2005, 10:54 AM
The one group I can blame is the fans who apparently haven't come out to support a team with 2 recent titles and a number of years contending, and one that made a solid payroll commitment. Sucks, but apparently there just isn't the support necessary to warrant a major league team.

My in laws live 10 miles from Tropicana Field and were all excited when the Devil Rays were born. They told me happily they had bought season tickets.

However what they had done was pay a $50 deposit on tickets but they actually thought they could buy season tickets for that price as they were used to paying $1 a game for the Clearwater Phillies.

My father in-law is a very smart man having gone to MIT in the late 40's and remembering Ted Williams. But he can not compute ticket prices in the 21st Century. The reality is Florida has a lot of people, but a good chunk of the population is on fixed income.

I'm not sure MLB can ever work in that state. MLB should look hard at relocating to a proven baseball mad area.

Don't laugh but New Haven, CT could be a good place to put a team and the Yankees, Mets and Red Sox would be powerless to stop it. New Haven sits in the middle of a baseball hotbed

The Yankees' and Mets' territory includes New York City, plus Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and Rockland Counties in New York; Fairfield County south of I-84 and west of SR 58 in Connecticut; and Bergen, Hudson, Essex and Union Counties in New Jersey;
Getting a stadium built would not be a problem

Flight #24
11-23-2005, 11:02 AM
If Loria wants the team to stay in Florida, he would be doing whatever is necessary to assemble enough private financing for a park. Instead, he's pushing all the blame on the legislators. You just can't blame the legislators for this.

He's already agreed to put up something like the 2d most money ever for a stadium, and to cover all cost overruns himself. He's done his part.

Flight #24
11-23-2005, 11:03 AM
I'm not sure MLB can ever work in that state. MLB should look hard at relocating to a proven baseball mad area.








Let me make one thing clear: I don't blame fans for deciding to spend their money elsewhere - that's everyone's individual choice, I just don't think that in the absence of support for a contending and title-winning team, that the population "deserves" a team.

Baby Fisk
11-23-2005, 11:12 AM
He's already agreed to put up something like the 2d most money ever for a stadium, and to cover all cost overruns himself. He's done his part.
Thanks for that info.

samram
11-23-2005, 11:44 AM
Let me make one thing clear: I don't blame fans for deciding to spend their money elsewhere - that's everyone's individual choice, I just don't think that in the absence of support for a contending and title-winning team, that the population "deserves" a team.

Agreed. This is just a situation in which baseball didn't work in a particular market, so Loria is going to try somewhere else. The stadium is really irrelevant given that the people in the area don't want to watch baseball anyway.

In an earlier post, I suggested Jacksonville, but I guess that's a bad pro sports market as well. There are rumors that the Jaguars will be moved within the next five years. It seems as if the Bucs and Dolphins, and the Heat to some extent, are the only viable pro teams in Florida.

Hitmen77
11-23-2005, 12:00 PM
What about contraction? Is this still an option? MLB was certainly ready to contract the Twins and Expos in 2002.

The problem is that it isn't just the Marlins, it's also Tampa Bay and Kansas City that just can't support a major league team. Can MLB find 3 other cities that can support these franchises?

New Jersey makes the most sense since the Yanks and Mets are rolling in $$$ and are the most prolific abusers of driving up salaries.

Ol' No. 2
11-23-2005, 12:09 PM
What about contraction? Is this still an option? MLB was certainly ready to contract the Twins and Expos in 2002.

The problem is that it isn't just the Marlins, it's also Tampa Bay and Kansas City that just can't support a major league team. Can MLB find 3 other cities that can support these franchises?

New Jersey makes the most sense since the Yanks and Mets are rolling in $$$ and are the most prolific abusers of driving up salaries.Contraction would be a solution. As I've said before, the problem is that there just aren't 30 markets able to support teams. But contraction will never happen. It was always just a threat, used to try to intimidate recalcitrant local governments to pony up the dough to build new stadia, and as a bargaining chip in CBA negotiations. But there's no real economic incentive for the owners to put up hundreds of millions of dollars to buy out two teams.

Lip Man 1
11-23-2005, 12:09 PM
According to the terms of the CBA, MLB has the right to contract teams when it expires after 2006 without any legel recourse from the MLBPA. That's where the Florida Marlins belong (along with a few other clubs...)

Lip

Optipessimism
11-23-2005, 12:35 PM
What about contraction? Is this still an option? MLB was certainly ready to contract the Twins and Expos in 2002.

The problem is that it isn't just the Marlins, it's also Tampa Bay and Kansas City that just can't support a major league team. Can MLB find 3 other cities that can support these franchises?

New Jersey makes the most sense since the Yanks and Mets are rolling in $$$ and are the most prolific abusers of driving up salaries.

Kansas City can support a MLB team. If they ever get their heads out of the toilet and start fielding a winning team then you'll see.

The Marlins are totally different. With all their success they should have people showing up, but if fans can not afford to come or would rather watch the games from air conditioned homes as opposed to a giant garbage dump, you can't really blame them. Also, how many night games do the Marlins usually have? If they have too many day games perhaps that keeps the working class from being able to attend? I just know that if the Sox played in a giant butthole like Pro Player Stadium I wouldn't be running out the door for tickets either. I'd still be a diehard fan, but I'd be a diehard fan from the comfort of my own home.

IMO you need a good team and a nice stadium to draw fans. Attendance for us will be on a steady rise (hopefully) but it was bad before because even though we had a spacious, modern ballpark we had crap on the field. The Marlins have the team but not the ballpark. Hurricanes or not, fixed income or not, I find it very hard to believe that attendance would continue to suck like it has been if a new stadium were put in place.

Fenway
11-23-2005, 12:38 PM
(along with a few other clubs...)

Lip

team with an outmoded stadium come to mind?

http://www.sportsevents.net/events/images/wrigley_field.jpg

PKalltheway
11-23-2005, 12:41 PM
Come on, Las Vegas! But that would have to be a dome. Portland or Buffalo would work well too.
Historically, Buffalo was one of the cities that was nearly awarded one of the '93 expansion teams. Instead, they went to Denver and Miami. I wonder if they're thinking about Kentucky or Tennessee?

Buffalo would be interesting along with Portland. Kentucky would not be successful because it is a basketball dominated state, and when Kentuckians do watch baseball, it is generally the Reds they watch and another team would not be a wise thing. Money would not be as plentiful as it is in New Jersey. Besides, Florida is probably the most pathetic sports market in the United States. I was watching Pardon the Interruption and they mentioned that the Dolphins didn't even sell out home games in their glory years. The Heat only sell out because of Shaq, and when he leaves, they will go back to empty seats. To my knowledge, when I was watching a Dolphins game on t.v. a couple of weeks back, I did see some empty seats in Dolphins stadium. There are some good sports fans in Florida, but sadly, it just isn't enough.

Optipessimism
11-23-2005, 12:44 PM
team with an outmoded stadium come to mind?

http://www.sportsevents.net/events/images/wrigley_field.jpg

I don't know if the Cubs really count as a baseball franchise though because I don't think baseball is the attraction. The team could move 500 miles away yet I'm convinced that place would still sell out as long as they kept serving beer.

PKalltheway
11-23-2005, 12:56 PM
Whoever is still upset in Florida about the '97 team should get their head examined. They have won a second World Series title and now they have an annual contender along with one of the most popular players in baseball, Dontrelle Willis. It just perplexes me how they can't draw anybody. Here in Cincinnati, we haven't had a winning season since 2000 and our attendance has been steadily declining since the new park opened two years ago. Yet somehow we still can outdraw the Marlins.:?:

lostletters
11-23-2005, 01:09 PM
Can anybody say Portland Marlins.

For one move the team into the American League. The National League has too many teams, especially the NL Central. Move the Pirates into the east and move the Marlins to Portland and put them in the AL West.


Seriously Portland should have a baseball team. This has been a city and state that has been pleading with MLB to get one for some time. Plus there is no questionable aspects ala Las Vegas.

To me Portland needs an AL team, and the National League has TOO many teams.

Also Florida has always been a poor sports market. They put teams there because they look at the population, yet the teams rarely get a good draw. They thought it would be like California all over again, but it has been quite the opposite.
Portland would probably be the best bet, because it has been proven that west coast baseball teams have large and loyal fanbases. Nearly all of them draw 2 million plus even in loosing seasons.

PKalltheway
11-23-2005, 01:27 PM
Looking at the Miami Herald you get a sense that the Marlins future in South Florida is dismal at best.

There is no way the State of Florida is putting up money for a stadium with all the hurricane damage the past 2 years. Frankly I question if the Marlins could ever draw? Unlike the fire sale of 1998, the 2003 champions tried to keep as much of the team together and and did stay in contention for a wild card until the end. Yet they could not draw.

Only been to Dolphins Stadium for football and I remember one night in October for a Patriots game the humidity was awful and I can only imagine how bad it must be in July.

Mark my words, Loria will somehow try to move the team to The Meadowlands as that was his orginal idea with the Expos. Selig may go along with that to make NYC a three team market.

Miami Herald columnist is brutal this morning

We deserve to lose this baseball team (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/columnists/dan_le_batard/13230541.htm)

Funny how Dan LeBatard says in his column that the Marlins "lead the league in excuses.":tongue:

Hitmen77
11-23-2005, 01:40 PM
team with an outmoded stadium come to mind?

http://www.sportsevents.net/events/images/wrigley_field.jpg

let's see.... 94 or more losses 4 times since 1997, only a smattering of winning seasons since '72, no world series appearance since the year after the St. Louis freaking Browns made it.... yep, sounds like a candidate to me.

TheVulture
11-23-2005, 05:49 PM
Buffalo has a major-league ready minor league park that they built in the early 1990s. The concern though is that Buffalo in April is just as bad as Chicago tempwise...and sometimes with a little snow thrown in.

I've always thought Portland, Vegas or Memphis would all be good venues for teams.

How come no one ever mentions San Antonio? Its somewhere around the 6th or 7th largest city in the US now after recent growth.

NWSox
11-24-2005, 02:36 AM
Could the Mariners object to this?

Portland is not part of the Mariners official territory so MLB does not need their permission. However, the league would certainly be cannibalizing their market by putting a team here. I'm sure this is part of the analysis of Portland as a viable market.

For one move the team into the American League. The National League has too many teams, especially the NL Central. Move the Pirates into the east and move the Marlins to Portland and put them in the AL West.

The NL has two more teams than the AL for balance (16 v 14). You can't have 15 each due to scheduling difficulties. I don't mind a Portland team staying in the NL so that I can have a rooting interest in the team without it conflicting with my Sox loyalties.

Not that anyone asked, but, as a resident, I do have some thoughts on Portland as a market for MLB. Portland is a fantastic city with a lot going for it. And from a statistical standpoint, it is large enough to warrant consideration as an MLB market (e.g., largest market with only one major professional franchise). It has a homey minor league stadium downtown with great public transportation (but lousy parking) that could support MLB for a few years. And the plans for a new stadium are exciting - most likely a riverfront location downtown with great views of the skyline and Mt. Hood. However, at the end of the day, this feels like another Pittsburgh, Milwaukee or KC in terms of market potential. This city has lost most of its corporate headquarters so selling a stadium's worth of luxury boxes would be a stretch. And given what the people I know do during the summer, I thinking averaging 20,000 per game would aslo be a stretch. What outsiders don't realize is that we have spectacular weather from June through Sept, which is good for baseball but also good for all the other outdoor activities that attract people to Portland. At the end of the day, this would be just another team with a below average payroll struggling to compete. Our favorite ESPN expert, Rob Neyer, happens to live here as well (his wife or girlfriend is a resident at our major teaching hospital, I think) and has basically offered the same assessment.

I would love to have MLB here and certainly wouldn't complain about my tax dollars being wasted, etc., but my rational side tells me this just doesn't make sense. MLB needs to put a team in Vegas - ten years from now, this debate will look silly. Vegas has huge upside as a market. I expect MLB and the NBA will be in Vegas by then, with the NFL knocking on the door.

Wsoxmike59
11-24-2005, 07:20 AM
How come no one ever mentions San Antonio? Its somewhere around the 6th or 7th largest city in the US now after recent growth.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html

Here's the top 50 U.S. Cities and their populations as of 7/1/2004.

The only explanation that I could come up with for San Antonio not getting a look/see from MLB is that TX already has two MLB teams.

I think they'd want to expand in to a market where no MLB exists in that state. Nashville, TN. Louisville, KY. and Indianapolis, IN. look to be 3 untapped markets.

Also I don't think you'll ever see MLB in Las Vegas, NV. The gambling element is something MLB wants to stay FAR FAR AWAY from.

Ol' No. 2
11-24-2005, 10:48 AM
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html

Here's the top 50 U.S. Cities and their populations as of 7/1/2004.

The only explanation that I could come up with for San Antonio not getting a look/see from MLB is that TX already has two MLB teams.

I think they'd want to expand in to a market where no MLB exists in that state. Nashville, TN. Louisville, KY. and Indianapolis, IN. look to be 3 untapped markets.

Also I don't think you'll ever see MLB in Las Vegas, NV. The gambling element is something MLB wants to stay FAR FAR AWAY from.Just looking at the city population is misleading. You need to consider the wider metropolitan areas. This is where a lot of these often-suggested cities fall down - there is no surrounding metropolitan area to speak of. Boston is smaller than El Paso, TX, but you'd never put a team in El Paso.

samram
11-24-2005, 10:50 AM
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html

Here's the top 50 U.S. Cities and their populations as of 7/1/2004.

The only explanation that I could come up with for San Antonio not getting a look/see from MLB is that TX already has two MLB teams.

I think they'd want to expand in to a market where no MLB exists in that state. Nashville, TN. Louisville, KY. and Indianapolis, IN. look to be 3 untapped markets.

Also I don't think you'll ever see MLB in Las Vegas, NV. The gambling element is something MLB wants to stay FAR FAR AWAY from.

People can gamble on baseball from anywhere. The location of the team really isn't going to add to any prospective problems.

gowhitesox
11-24-2005, 11:50 AM
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html

Here's the top 50 U.S. Cities and their populations as of 7/1/2004.

The only explanation that I could come up with for San Antonio not getting a look/see from MLB is that TX already has two MLB teams.

I think they'd want to expand in to a market where no MLB exists in that state. Nashville, TN. Louisville, KY. and Indianapolis, IN. look to be 3 untapped markets.

Also I don't think you'll ever see MLB in Las Vegas, NV. The gambling element is something MLB wants to stay FAR FAR AWAY from.

Being from San Antonio, no one even considers San Antonio for a few reasons:
1.) the small TV market
2.) the no ball park big enough for a major league baseball, (about 7,000 seat stadium for AA missions) Alamo Dome wasn't built for baseball.
3.) I also think because Texas has 2 teams already.

However there is talk now of building stadiums for NFL football and a stadium for major league baseball near the SBC center, which is the home of the San Antonio Spurs. I have lived here for 17 years and will believe it when I see them built.

MiamiSpartan
11-24-2005, 12:10 PM
Portland is 4 hours away from Seattle...hardly a problem...If anything, having another team in the northwest could assist in developing a rivalry that could assist both teams....Seattle has no natural rivalry...could make interleague play interesting...

Nyls Nyman
11-25-2005, 11:09 AM
I just can't see Indianapolis getting a MLB team. There are a lot of baseball fans there, but they are very diehard with existing teams. Of the people I know from there, probably 45% Reds, 40% Cubs, 15% White Sox. And I've never heard somebody say "oh, I wish we had our own team."

OTOH, that would shove Pittsburgh into the East. 9 home games vs. the Nationals and 9 vs. the Phillies would probably help their attendance.

Unfortunately, the cities that would draw three million people are the ones where they'd get the least amount of net revenue: places like San Juan, Monterrey, Santo Domingo, and Mexico City. Other than Monterrey, most of those locations also have issues in terms of travel time.

If Castro would hurry up and die, MLB could put a team in Havana by 2020.

VenturaSoxFan23
11-25-2005, 12:40 PM
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html

Here's the top 50 U.S. Cities and their populations as of 7/1/2004.

The only explanation that I could come up with for San Antonio not getting a look/see from MLB is that TX already has two MLB teams.

I think they'd want to expand in to a market where no MLB exists in that state. Nashville, TN. Louisville, KY. and Indianapolis, IN. look to be 3 untapped markets.

Also I don't think you'll ever see MLB in Las Vegas, NV. The gambling element is something MLB wants to stay FAR FAR AWAY from.

I don't think these cities would give up their image as "major" minor league teams to become a "minor" major league team, like Kansas City or Miami, for instance. I think Portland would fall into that category as well.
It worked for Baltimore when the St. Louis Browns were moved East (one of the most dominating minor league teams ever), but chances like that are rare.

downstairs
11-25-2005, 01:21 PM
Las Vegas will fail and fail hard. Forget the gambling element- which I actually think is seperate (why would gambling in the city have any affect on the single team playing there?)

From my experience the sheer majority of people that actually live in Vegas have no emotional ties to the city. A lot of them actually don't like the city. They're there because they work there supporting tourism. The city is built on this attitude- look at the nametags of most workers there... they all list the city that person is from. They're proud of the transient nature of the city.

That's all well and good for many cultural things- but not a sports team.

Any citizens there that are baseball fans are going to be fans of another team.

CubsfansareDRUNK
11-25-2005, 02:51 PM
my uncle said they would change to the "Portland Marlons"

TDog
11-25-2005, 10:26 PM
Las Vegas will fail and fail hard. Forget the gambling element- which I actually think is seperate (why would gambling in the city have any affect on the single team playing there?)

From my experience the sheer majority of people that actually live in Vegas have no emotional ties to the city. A lot of them actually don't like the city. They're there because they work there supporting tourism. The city is built on this attitude- look at the nametags of most workers there... they all list the city that person is from. They're proud of the transient nature of the city.

That's all well and good for many cultural things- but not a sports team.

Any citizens there that are baseball fans are going to be fans of another team.

I agree with most of this. Of course, fans in Phoenix were fans of other teams. Many still are. It would probably be worse in Las Vegas, though. I have spent some time in Las Vegas, and the only person I ever met with an emotional tie to the city (a woman I went out with a couple of times who grew up there) was living 300 miles outside of Las Vegas.

Gambling is bigger issue than you suggest, and just one more reason that moving a major league team to Las Vegas would be a stupid idea. Why doesn't a minor sport (like the NFL or NBA) give it a try first?

The gambling problem isn't about twenty-one, but specifically betting on baseball in sports books. I haven't checked lately, but I know that when IU was beating UNLV on its way to winning one of its five NCAA basketball championships, it was not legal for sports books to take bets on games involving college teams from the state. Particularly with the opportunity for baseball players (who could provide inside information about their teams) to become indebted to casinos, I believe locating a team in a city and county that allows gambling on baseball would seriously undermine the game's credibility.

Couple this with the fact that Miami's problem is that it won't build a baseball stadium downtown. Las Vegas doesn't have a baseball stadium downtown. It won't tear down casinos to build a baseball stadium downtown -- despite the improvement such an action would make to the neighborhood -- and baseball wouldn't want to have one of its teams' stadiums surrounded by casinos.

Las Vegas could have to make a choice between gaming and baseball, and that is no choice.

Half Cocked Jack
11-26-2005, 06:10 AM
Couple this with the fact that Miami's problem is that it won't build a baseball stadium downtown. Las Vegas doesn't have a baseball stadium downtown. It won't tear down casinos to build a baseball stadium downtown -- despite the improvement such an action would make to the neighborhood -- and baseball wouldn't want to have one of its teams' stadiums surrounded by casinos.

Las Vegas could have to make a choice between gaming and baseball, and that is no choice.
This is absurd. They could easily put a ballpark there, there's tons of undeveloped areas, and what does MLB care if the place is surrounded by casinos?

I agree that a Vegas team might not work because people dont have much of an attachment to a city, but as Vegas grows that might change. It's one of the fastest growing cities in the US.

But here's a dynamite idea: MLB should kill Castro and put a team in Havana.

Ol' No. 2
11-26-2005, 09:40 AM
Major league baseball would fail in Las Vegas simply because it's too small. You can't support a team with a half-million population. Go 5 miles outside the city limits and there's nothing but desert.

samram
11-26-2005, 10:17 AM
Major league baseball would fail in Las Vegas simply because it's too small. You can't support a team with a half-million population. Go 5 miles outside the city limits and there's nothing but desert.

Actually, the metro area is now around 1.5 million, maybe a little more. If contraction isn't something MLB will look at seriously, I think it's the best choice.

WestSox
11-26-2005, 10:28 AM
If I owned the Marlins, I'd be looking to move immediately. The lack of fan support is astounding. They won TWO World Series titles in their first 11 years of existence and they're rewarded with playing in an empty football stadium.

I think that the Raleigh/Durham area would be their best bet.

EDIT: I'm not sure that Portland would be a viable option at this time, as the state of Oregon is flat-broke and wouldn't be able to contribute much to a stadium. This is the same reason that LA has been without an NFL team for a decade.

samram
11-26-2005, 10:33 AM
I think that the Raleigh/Durham area would be their best bet.

Except that relatively few people in NC care about baseball.

WestSox
11-26-2005, 10:37 AM
Except that relatively few people in NC care about baseball.

Relatively few people in Florida or Texas do and they each have two teams.

NC already has a football and a basketball team and there are enough people in Raleigh/Durham/Charlotte/Winston-Salem to support a baseball team. I'm not saying that it's a great market, but it's probably the best of what's currently available.

greenpeach
11-26-2005, 10:40 AM
The fact of the matter is that there are not 30 cities capable of supporting a baseball team. So where would you move the Marlins? Portland? New Jersey is probably the only place that could support a team, and it's doubtful that the Yankees and Mets will allow that without a huge extortion payment.

Las Vegas is the fastest growing metropolitan area in the country. It could easily support a major league franchise, but the sticking point would be the stadium funding issue.

greenpeach
11-26-2005, 10:44 AM
I don't see it happening, based on the Florida politicians not funding any part of a new ballpark and the fact that there would be two teams in Central Florida. The Devil Rays are having enough problems of their own without having to worry about having another team 1 1/2 away...

I think there's a better chance of the Devil Rays ending up in Orlando rather than the Marlins.

samram
11-26-2005, 10:46 AM
Relatively few people in Florida or Texas do and they each have two teams.

NC already has a football and a basketball team and there are enough people in Raleigh/Durham/Charlotte/Winston-Salem to support a baseball team. I'm not saying that it's a great market, but it's probably the best of what's currently available.

Florida has been a failure as far as major league baseball is concerned. Texas is a state with almost 20 million people living there, so they can find enough people to watch baseball.

Well, Charlotte is a couple of hours from Raleigh, so there wouldn't be a lot of people making the trek up there for games, except for a weekend here or there. Secondly, the pro teams in Charlotte are hardly big drawers. The fans here are extremely fair weather. The Bobcats just opened their new arena and they're struggling to get half of it filled already. The Panthers are a nonissue if they're not 7-3 or better. And there is hardly what you would call a "buzz" for the Hurricanes.

Finally, public funding for stadia, especially in Charlotte, is a sore issue in NC. People were not happy with the city for funding the new Bobcats arena- they voted against it and the city gave Bob Johnson money anyway.

Las Vegas is the best available market.

nccwsfan
11-26-2005, 10:56 AM
Relatively few people in Florida or Texas do and they each have two teams.

NC already has a football and a basketball team and there are enough people in Raleigh/Durham/Charlotte/Winston-Salem to support a baseball team. I'm not saying that it's a great market, but it's probably the best of what's currently available.

I live here in Raleigh/Durham, and I'm a huge baseball fan, but we'll get a Major League Baseball team when they decide to expand to 50 teams....samram was right on with the lack of interest in baseball here. Heck for that matter the interest for ANY pro sports in Raleigh/Durham is practically non-exsistent. The interest in our one sports team (Hurricanes) is tepid at best, and I've never heard one person talk about the mere possibility of bringing a team here. It would be a disastrous mistake. If I want to see baseball I'll head up 4 hours to see that Nationals play....

If you want to talk ACC or NASCAR, Raleigh/Durham is the place for you, otherwise it's not even worth the time to discuss it....

nccwsfan
11-26-2005, 10:59 AM
I think there's a better chance of the Devil Rays ending up in Orlando rather than the Marlins.
Agree with that, but the D-Rays still have 21 years on their stadium lease, so it'll be awhile before that option comes up. The Marlins, on the other hand, are out of options after 2010 and will need to have a new location by then.

WestSox
11-26-2005, 11:01 AM
Florida has been a failure as far as major league baseball is concerned.

Yet, that didn't stop MLB from putting two teams there in one decade. Nor did it stop the NFL from putting a team in Charlotte (who've hardly been a failure) or a team in Jacksonville (who have been a failure at the gate, but are still making money and aren't moving anytime soon). If the team can make money and the market is large enough, attendance is a secondary issue (which explains why the Devil Rays aren't looking to move).

I don't live in NC, but I know that a MLB team could survive there. Whether or not they'd thrive there is another story. So, maybe Vegas would be the better option.

Outside of those two, Indy is the only other that I can think of. And that's highly unlikely, as basketball and racing are the big draws there. The Colts couldn't draw flies until the late '90s and had to fight like hell to get funding from the city/state for their new stadium. The city/state also just paid a ton of money for the Conseco Fieldhouse five or six years ago. And, despite Indy's 780k population, the metro area is very small with the closest city of 200k or more being several hours away.

If Vegas doesn't fly, maybe the two Florida teams just need to be contracted. IMO, there are too many teams already.

Fenway
11-26-2005, 01:25 PM
I said this earlier in the thread but one area that can not be discounted is Connecticut. Unlike New Jersey, the Yankees, Mets and Red Sox can not block it.

Put a ballpark somewhere in the I-91 corridor you can draw from Springfield, Hartford, New Haven, Bridgeport, Stamford etc. While one market doesn't at first glance have big numbers, the reality is they are so close together it is wall to wall people.

The biggest rumor in Connecticut is that the Whalers maybe coming back. Moving them out was a mistake in the first place and it was only done out of spite when the State wouldn't build them a new arena. But now the money is there and Compuware concedes they would make three times as much just in TV revenue by going back.

Brass Bonanza may live again

http://www.brassbonanza.com/site/index.php

WestSox
11-26-2005, 02:12 PM
I said this earlier in the thread but one area that can not be discounted is Connecticut. Unlike New Jersey, the Yankees, Mets and Red Sox can not block it.

Put a ballpark somewhere in the I-91 corridor you can draw from Springfield, Hartford, New Haven, Bridgeport, Stamford etc. While one market doesn't at first glance have big numbers, the reality is they are so close together it is wall to wall people.


And, unfortunately, eveyone in CT is already a Yankees or Red Sox fan, with both ballparks being within reasonable driving distance. CT couldn't even support the Whalers and, given the long-established Yankees/BoSox loyalties on top of it, I doubt that MLB would allow a franchise to build there.

samram
11-26-2005, 04:22 PM
Yet, that didn't stop MLB from putting two teams there in one decade.

I don't understand this. The Marlins and Devil Rays are the failures. Baseball in Florida is a failure because of those teams/fanbases- they didn't lead MLB to put teams in Florida.

buehrle4cy05
11-26-2005, 04:32 PM
I don't understand this. The Marlins and Devil Rays are the failures. Baseball in Florida is a failure because of those teams/fanbases- they didn't lead MLB to put teams in Florida.

Do you think having crummy stadiums in both Tampa and Florida has anything to do with it?

downstairs
11-26-2005, 04:53 PM
Do you think having crummy stadiums in both Tampa and Florida has anything to do with it?

I've never understood this, though what you say apparently is true.

I love US Cellular... but if the White Sox played in a abandoned factory, I'd still follow them and show up all the same.

Do people actually care that much about the stadium that they won't show up if its not new and sparkly?

Don't most people still follow the *team* and not the *stadium*.

WestSox
11-26-2005, 06:24 PM
I don't understand this. The Marlins and Devil Rays are the failures. Baseball in Florida is a failure because of those teams/fanbases- they didn't lead MLB to put teams in Florida.

My point was that MLB knew that Florida is not a baseball-crazy state (to put it mildly) before they decided to put two expansion teams there. But they knew that the markets were large enough to support a franchise. I don't see a huge difference between southern Florida and the Charlotte area.

soxfanreggie
11-26-2005, 08:27 PM
I made this "joke" today. I said the Marlins would dump about $16-17 mil in salary (a guesstimate at what they were going to get rid of this year) and walk into some prospects who will win them a WS in about 5-6 years. They seem to me like a team that will compete for a year or two then dismantle then rebuild then compete then dismantle. I wonder what pct. of their payroll (probably around 30% or so) was just sent to Boston. They will have some big bucks to sign some new guys if they want. The trade was pretty good for them. Get rid of a player that your management didn't like, get rid of the 3B you're on the hook for $18 mil in the next 2 years for, and get rid of an average $3 mil reliever. You could easily sign a good 3B and MRP for the $9 mil you were giving Lowell and maybe have a few bucks still left over. Then you take the money you were going to give Mota and sign a starter with potential or a vet. Then you take the money you were supposed to pay Beckett and set it aside for when you have to pay D-Train a lot of money to stay.

nccwsfan
11-26-2005, 09:35 PM
My point was that MLB knew that Florida is not a baseball-crazy state (to put it mildly) before they decided to put two expansion teams there. But they knew that the markets were large enough to support a franchise. I don't see a huge difference between southern Florida and the Charlotte area.

Tampa Bay had a season ticket base of 30,000+ when they played their first season at the Trop. Ask anyone from the TB area and they'll tell you about how they were shafted by MLB for over 20 years before finally getting a team. There was genuine interest in having baseball played in the area. Bad ownership and management has led to the apathetic culture there.

But at least there was an interest. I've lived here 3 years now and I haven't once heard on the news, in the papers, on the radio, etc. about bringing a team to North Carolina. It's a good thought and boy I wish you were right, but the truth is the interest in getting a team just isn't here. The demographics support it but the interest of the fan base doesn't. :(:

TDog
11-26-2005, 10:43 PM
This is absurd. They could easily put a ballpark there, there's tons of undeveloped areas, and what does MLB care if the place is surrounded by casinos?

I agree that a Vegas team might not work because people dont have much of an attachment to a city, but as Vegas grows that might change. It's one of the fastest growing cities in the US....



The Marlins want a downtown ballpark. That is what they have told the city of Miami. Las Vegas doesn't even have a ballpark where the Marlins could play, and I don't see Las putting one downtown. Maybe Henderson would. Better yet, Elko or Winnemucca. The Bullhead City, Arizona/Laughlin, Nevada-area is growing faster than Las Vegas. Why not move the Marlins there?

The idea that Nevada might support Major League Baseball because the people might change someday is ridiciculous.

And if people are legally betting on baseball across the street from a Major League Baseball game, Major League Baseball would care, and care deeply.

WestSox
11-27-2005, 09:36 AM
Tampa Bay had a season ticket base of 30,000+ when they played their first season at the Trop. Ask anyone from the TB area and they'll tell you about how they were shafted by MLB for over 20 years before finally getting a team. There was genuine interest in having baseball played in the area. Bad ownership and management has led to the apathetic culture there.

But at least there was an interest. I've lived here 3 years now and I haven't once heard on the news, in the papers, on the radio, etc. about bringing a team to North Carolina. It's a good thought and boy I wish you were right, but the truth is the interest in getting a team just isn't here. The demographics support it but the interest of the fan base doesn't. :(:

Any expansion team is going to initially sell a lot of tickets regardless of where they set up. I wouldn't put all of the blame on bad ownership in Tampa. Incompetent franchises like the Royals and Pirates still out-draw the Devil Rays by a large margin. And, hell, some do extremely well at the gate (Cubs, Mets). Despite the 30,000 season-ticket holders in '98, I disagree that Florida is a good market for a MLB team. I know a lot of people who live in Florida and they all say the same thing: Football and NASCAR are the only big sports there. The fact that the Devil Rays struggle to draw 10,000 people to a game and the fact that the Marlins only drew 22,000/game (27th overall) a year after winning the WS and keeping the core of that team together says it all. Also keep in mind that one of Florida's major demographic is retired seniors. Many of them (like my grandfather and his friends) are still pissed off about the strike and live month-to-month via their pension/Social Security checks.

So, it looks like Vegas is the best bet. I'd put my money on contraction before that, but we'll see what happens.

nccwsfan
11-27-2005, 10:32 AM
Just goes to show how tough it is to move to another market. The desire for MLB might be there but the $$ and support aren't. Hopefully if they move to Las Vegas they'll get the support they need- DC has done a good job so far.

Hangar18
11-27-2005, 05:15 PM
Heres an Idea. It was FOOLISH for baseball to have expanded in Tampa and Arizona. Especially since Arizona was supposed to be in the American League.

Now we see that BOTH Florida franchises simply cannot exist down there.
Nows the time to fix things once and for all. Merge the Devil Rays and Marlins
and move them to Brooklyn to become a new AL team. Who cares what King George thinks. With one less NL team, move the DBacks back to the AL or think long and hard about FOLDING PITTSBURGH. With some of the stupid moves theyve made ............ theyve become nothing but a place to train future Cubs. Too bad, thats a nice stadium too. Bottom line, is there should NEVER have been another expansion back in 98

TornLabrum
11-27-2005, 05:54 PM
Heres an Idea. It was FOOLISH for baseball to have expanded in Tampa and Arizona. Especially since Arizona was supposed to be in the American League.

Now we see that BOTH Florida franchises simply cannot exist down there.
Nows the time to fix things once and for all. Merge the Devil Rays and Marlins
and move them to Brooklyn to become a new AL team. Who cares what King George thinks. With one less NL team, move the DBacks back to the AL or think long and hard about FOLDING PITTSBURGH. With some of the stupid moves theyve made ............ theyve become nothing but a place to train future Cubs. Too bad, thats a nice stadium too. Bottom line, is there should NEVER have been another expansion back in 98

If they merge the Devil Rays and Marlins, that would mean they would have to drop another team. You can't run a schedule with 29 teams.

Daver
11-27-2005, 06:09 PM
Bottom line, is there should NEVER have been another expansion back in 98

Bottom line, MLB needed the franchise fees paid by this expansion to pay the judgement levied against them in federal court brought on by them being found guilty of collusion.

TheOldRoman
11-27-2005, 06:14 PM
Bottom line, MLB needed the franchise fees paid by this expansion to pay the judgement levied against them in federal court brought on by them being found guilty of collusion.
I've never heard of this. Can you please give some details?

Daver
11-27-2005, 06:48 PM
I've never heard of this. Can you please give some details?

In 93 MLB was found guilty of collusion, they appealed and were found guilty again in 94 and 95. They recieved the penalty of paying 280 million dollars to the MLBPA in damages, these were simple damages as opposed to the treble damages any other business would have to pay, because MLB enjoys an exemption from anti trust laws. In order to pay the 280 million MLB chose to sell the franchise rights for two more teams, rather than go to the owners for the money, and thus the Tampa Bay Devil Rays and the Arizona Diamondbacks came into existance.

Read the book "Lords of the Realm", it goes into much better detail than I am going strictly from memory.

TheOldRoman
11-27-2005, 06:51 PM
In 93 MLB was found guilty of collusion, they appealed and were found guilty again in 94 and 95. They recieved the penalty of paying 280 million dollars to the MLBPA in damages, these were simple damages as opposed to the treble damages any other business would have to pay, because MLB enjoys an exemption from anti trust laws. In order to pay the 280 million MLB chose to sell the franchise rights for two more teams, rather than go to the owners for the money, and thus the Tampa Bay Devil Rays and the Arizona Diamondbacks came into existance.

Read the book "Lords of the Realm", it goes into much better detail than I am going strictly from memory.
Im assuming the collusion between the owners was about lowering players' salaries?

Daver
11-27-2005, 06:58 PM
Im assuming the collusion between the owners was about lowering players' salaries?

Controlling salary would be a better way to put it, but yes.

nccwsfan
11-27-2005, 08:51 PM
Bottom line, MLB needed the franchise fees paid by this expansion to pay the judgement levied against them in federal court brought on by them being found guilty of collusion.

There was also a lawsuit in the court system that was brought forth by the Tampa Bay Baseball Group (I don't recall the ownership name, but it was headed up by Frank Morsani, who tried to lure teams to the area in the 80's), and awarding an expansion team to the Tampa/St. Petersburg area called off the dogs. I also believe this was the case for Seattle back in the 70's (getting the Mariners to end a lawsuit for losing the Pilots)...

Lip Man 1
11-27-2005, 09:21 PM
NCCW:

Thought you might be interested in this item on Morsani:

"In 1988, Frank Morsani had tried to prevent Jerry Reinsdorf from getting American League approval for moving the White Sox to Tampa. He contacted several team owners, including the owner of the Baltimore Orioles, Edward Bennett Williams -- who in 1960 mounted a legal challenge to Calvin Griffith's relocation of the Washington Senators to Minnesota. Reinsdorf heard about it and became royally pissed off.

Morsani tried to block our move to St. Petersburg, Reinsdorf says. He fought us in the [Florida] legislature. And he went to see Edward Bennett Williams, who at the time owned the Orioles, and asked him to vote against the White Sox move to St. Petersburg. If baseball came to St. Petersburg, [Morsani] wanted to be involved. He had invested several million dollars trying to get an expansion team and if we came in, his money was going down the drain. But him going to see Williams was like someone who is not a member of a country club going to a member of the country club and asking him to vote against the admission of a third person. Ed Williams and I were members of the same country club and Morsani was not. I didn't think that was right.

Later in the same year, when Morsani attempted to buy the Texas Rangers, it was widely believed Reinsdorf was the man who stood in his way. Reinsdorf opposed the sale of the Rangers to Morsani; he also objected to broadcaster Ed Gaylord as owner. For blocking Morsani and Gaylord, the American League told Reinsdorf to find a qualified buyer for the Texas franchise. This made Reinsdorf even madder at Morsani, because he believed the price agreed upon by Morsani and Rangers owner Eddie Chiles was too high, making it tough to find an owner. However, Reinsdorf is generally credited with creating the George W. Bush ownership group.

Reinsdorf never forgot or forgave Morsani's actions, giving the Tampa car dealer a powerful and vocal opponent among baseball owners. Of Reinsdorf, Morsani says, I am not crazy about a lot of things that he did. In the spring of 1990, Allen Keesler took Morsani to the White Sox spring training camp in Sarasota to try and patch things up between his friends. The trio sat in Reinsdorf's box, ate lunch and talked. Allen was trying to patch things up between Morsani and me, Reinsdorf says. I was very angry because I felt, number one, he should be more civic-minded. Reinsdorf believed that despite Morsani's personal investment, he should have supported any baseball team that came to Tampa Bay, whether he owned it or not." From the internet story, ‘Stadium For Rent : Tampa Bay’s Quest For Major League Baseball’ by Bob Andelman. Chapter 10. Published 1993.

Lip