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josh152535
11-22-2005, 08:20 AM
Bruce Levine broke in on ESPN Radio at 7:41AM this morning that Sox and Phils are close to finalizing Thome trade. Sox send Aaron Rowand and either Contreras or McCarthy. Phils want the Sox to pick up 2/3 of $43M remaining (approx $29M over 3 years).

He also said that by saying goodbye to Thomas,Everett and perhaps Contreras, they would be willing to still spend on Konerko.

danjames
11-22-2005, 08:22 AM
A half hour ago and no one has reported this here yet besides a guy with 5 posts? :rolleyes:

kaufsox
11-22-2005, 08:28 AM
A half hour ago and no one has reported this here yet besides a guy with 5 posts? :rolleyes:

don't know what you're inferring, but ESPN broke this story at about 7:30 this morning. 5 posts or 5,000 the story is still legit. Maybe most posters are at work and haven't heard the report.

ChiSoxGirl
11-22-2005, 08:28 AM
I didn't hear this radio report, but if this is true, I think it's a HUGE mistake! How could you consciously trade the guy who was you PITCHING HORSE in the second half and throughout the playoffs?! :thud:

And throwing Aaron Rowand into the mix??? Don't even get me started on that one! I subscribe to the "if it's not broken, why fix it?" philosophy and quite honestly, Rowand put on a clinic out there in center this season, particularly in New York, so again, why would you trade him if you're of sound mind????

likeawarlord
11-22-2005, 08:30 AM
Bruce Levine broke in on ESPN Radio at 7:41AM this morning that Sox and Phils are close to finalizing Thome trade. Sox send Aaron Rowand and either Contreras or McCarthy. Phils want the Sox to pick up 2/3 of $43M remaining (approx $29M over 3 years).

He also said that by saying goodbye to Thomas,Everett and perhaps Contreras, they would be willing to still spend on Konerko.

maaaaaan, we're giving up a fair amount. saw that coming, though. i guess i'd rather see contreras off than mccarthy.

chaerulez
11-22-2005, 08:30 AM
If this is true, that's not a good idea Contreras or McCarthy? That puts El Duque back in the rotation which we all know he was a posteason hero but I don't think anyone would really have any expections other than another season with the ERA in the high 4's or 5's. Also we know he won't last the entire season.

kittle42
11-22-2005, 08:30 AM
This trade with Rowand/Contreras? OK.

This trade with Rowand/McCarthy? No so good.

downstairs
11-22-2005, 08:36 AM
Contreras?!?!?!

Huh?!?!

Have I been living under a rock, but was he not one of our best starters the second half of the season.

Pitching wins championships.
Pitching wins championships.
Pitching wins championships.
Pitching wins championships.
Pitching wins championships.

TomBradley72
11-22-2005, 08:36 AM
I don't like it at all....if it was El Duque and Rowand...I would do it. Phillies have a very limited market for Thome (AL team needing a DH that can afford him)...they are pretty much backed into a corner....if either of the combinations mentioned are real....we're over paying. This feels like one of the trades Veeck made after 1959...to get a few "past their prime" hitters.

Baby Fisk
11-22-2005, 08:37 AM
I don't want McCarthy traded, period. His stripey shoes mean too much to me.

bobwsx
11-22-2005, 08:39 AM
This trade with Rowand/Contreras? OK.

This trade with Rowand/McCarthy? No so good....What are you talking about?Jose finally turned the corner and we get rid of him?That's crap!We won with pitching now we go in a different direction.It makes know sense.

fledgedrallycap
11-22-2005, 08:40 AM
First, this is a report from Bruce ****in' Levine; take it with a grain of salt.

Second, has Kenny Williams not earned a little faith, trust, and respect?

NorthSideSox72
11-22-2005, 08:40 AM
First off, let's remember that this is Mr. Levine. I can think of no sports personality in Chicago who has put more garbage out on the waves than him, except perhaps the Wind Sock at the Sun Times.

That said, while I really like the idea of getting Thome, and I don't mind sending Rowand out (though I will miss him), I DON'T like sending BMac or Contreras. As has been pointed out already, PITCHING WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS. Now, if we were sending El Duque, or one of our minor league prospect pitchers, I'd be all good with this.

Jjav829
11-22-2005, 08:41 AM
Bruce Levine broke in on ESPN Radio at 7:41AM this morning that Sox and Phils are close to finalizing Thome trade. Sox send Aaron Rowand and either Contreras or McCarthy. Phils want the Sox to pick up 2/3 of $43M remaining (approx $29M over 3 years).

He also said that by saying goodbye to Thomas,Everett and perhaps Contreras, they would be willing to still spend on Konerko.

They can have Contreras and Rowand, but they better eat half of Thome's deal and include Ryan Madson. :cool: Maybe that's a little much, but that's what I am hoping for if this deal happens.

FYI, Bruce Levine is supposed to be on Carmen and Silvy to discuss this further.

getonbckthr
11-22-2005, 08:43 AM
Here's why I do it:

1) Rowands value never higher, and Anderson is ready.
2) Contreras really attractive for only really a half season.
3) It frees cash for Konerko.
4) Do you want Thome back in Cleveland?
5) As far as El Duque KW always has a back up plan.

Jjav829
11-22-2005, 08:45 AM
...What are you talking about?Jose finally turned the corner and we get rid of him?That's crap!We won with pitching now we go in a different direction.It makes know sense.

How are we going in another direction? Would we not still have Buehrle, Garcia, Garland and McCarthy? Who knows if Kenny has something else in mind for another starter. Maybe he plans to pursue another lesser starter after this and keep El Duque in the pen. And what if Kenny doesn't believe Jose has "turned the corner" but rather has peaked in value, leading Kenny to want to sell high?

havelj
11-22-2005, 08:45 AM
Remember with off-season trades, you have to wait until all deals are done for the off-season until you know what you've got.

Maybe Kenny turns around and trades for another pitcher or sign a FA pitcher or gets Pierre, etc. Don't look it as one single trade but rather look at the series of moves in an off-season.

duke of dorwood
11-22-2005, 08:47 AM
Levine also said getting Griffey was imminent. He should forecast weather with his record. On this trade-DO NOT LIKE IT-Philly needs relief pitching-give them Marte, not Rowand.

TomBradley72
11-22-2005, 08:49 AM
Here's why I do it:

1) Rowands value never higher, and Anderson is ready.
2) Contreras really attractive for only really a half season.
3) It frees cash for Konerko.
4) Do you want Thome back in Cleveland?
5) As far as El Duque KW always has a back up plan.

Solid points....but I think Contreras has truly turned the corner for a number of reasons....family is now in the US, adjusted his mechanics, etc....he's a veteran stud who I think will be solid for another two years....and definitely solid in 2006. We had a very healthy 2005....one of our starters will go down in 2006...if we dump one in this trade and El Duque breaks down...we're headed back to the "Danny Wright Era".

oeo
11-22-2005, 08:50 AM
How are we going in another direction? Would we not still have Buehrle, Garcia, Garland and McCarthy? Who knows if Kenny has something else in mind for another starter. Maybe he plans to pursue another lesser started after this and keep El Duque in the pen. And what if Kenny doesn't believe Jose has "turned the corner" but rather has peaked in value, leading Kenny to want to sell high?

I trust Kenny's decisions, especially after the success of this year. He doesn't make moves just for the sake of making moves, he's always got a plan and like 10 back-up plans, and he's the GM of the World Champion Chicago White Sox...he can't just be getting lucky.

We had a very healthy 2005....one of our starters will go down in 2006...if we dump one in this trade and El Duque breaks down...we're headed back to the "Danny Wright Era".

How do you know that one of our starters are going down? Is that you Miss Cleo? El Duque was not healthy for the majority of the year, and someone stepped up (McCarthy).

Who's going to go down to injury?

TomBradley72
11-22-2005, 08:51 AM
I trust Kenny's decisions, especially after the success of this year. He doesn't make moves just for the sake of making moves, he's always got a plan and like 10 back-up plans, and he's the GM of the World Champion Chicago White Sox...he can't just be getting lucky.

I agree he's earned some faith and trust....but still haunted by Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch and David Wells. :cool:

Dan Mega
11-22-2005, 08:53 AM
Bruce Levine broke in on ESPN Radio at 7:41AM this morning that Sox and Phils are close to finalizing Thome trade. Sox send Aaron Rowand and either Contreras or McCarthy. Phils want the Sox to pick up 2/3 of $43M remaining (approx $29M over 3 years).

He also said that by saying goodbye to Thomas,Everett and perhaps Contreras, they would be willing to still spend on Konerko.

Consider the source. If Levine was always right about trades, then Griffey Jr., Javier Vazquez, and Billy Wagner would all be in Sox uniforms right now. I won't believe it till I see it.

pythons007
11-22-2005, 08:53 AM
Remember with off-season trades, you have to wait until all deals are done for the off-season until you know what you've got.

Maybe Kenny turns around and trades for another pitcher or sign a FA pitcher or gets Pierre, etc. Don't look it as one single trade but rather look at the series of moves in an off-season.

Exactly, well put! Does anyone remember the moves last year???? Cmon guys, lets see what pans out before we start going overboard again. I like the fact that Kenny loves to move guys around. Contreras is as high as he can go (we really don't even know how old he really is), we have McCarthy waiting in the wings (if McCarthy goes I will be extremely pissed, I absolutely love this guy!) Anderson/Pods can take the spot of Rowand in center. We needed another bat.

Thome had a down year because of injury. If you look at this past 5-6 years, he was a monster. I would rather him on our team than anyone else in the Central. He is an absolute Sox killer. I welcome the trade and look forward to another interesting off season!!

IN KENNY I TRUST! DO YOU?

Rocky Soprano
11-22-2005, 08:54 AM
I would LOVE to have Thome.

But I just dont know if I would give up Rowand and Contreras/McCarthy.

The Phils are desperate to move Thome, so I am sure that KW will take advantage of that.

Rowand, Marte, and have the Phils pick up some of that contract and then I would do it in a hearbeat.

I trust KW and I am sure he will do what is best for the team.

getonbckthr
11-22-2005, 08:54 AM
Levine also said getting Griffey was imminent. He should forecast weather with his record. On this trade-DO NOT LIKE IT-Philly needs relief pitching-give them Marte, not Rowand.
Marte could be shipped off the Florida as part of a deal for Pierre. Especially if this Young and Ryan Sweeney are so good you might see Anderson and Marte for Pierre. Lineup:
1)Pods-LF
2)Pierre-CF
3)Konerko-1B
4)Thome-DH
5)Dye-RF
6)Iguchi-2B
7)AJ-C
8)Crede-3B
9)Uribe-SS

Buerhle, Garcia, Garland, Mccarthy/Contreras, Duque/TBD

Terry21fg
11-22-2005, 08:54 AM
If this does go through, and the sox are hesitant to bring El Duque back to the starting rotation, is there a possibility that Neal Cotts could get the 5th spot?

Mickster
11-22-2005, 08:56 AM
First, this is a report from Bruce ****in' Levine; take it with a grain of salt.

Second, has Kenny Williams not earned a little faith, trust, and respect?

My sentiments exactly. This place was in an uproar last year when Carlos Lee was traded for Pods and Viz. Little did we know that move would later allow us to acquire El Duque, Iguchi and AJ. Don't go bonkers just yet.....

beckett21
11-22-2005, 08:56 AM
They can have Contreras and Rowand, but they better eat half of Thome's deal and include Ryan Madson. :cool: Maybe that's a little much, but that's what I am hoping for if this deal happens.



Or Chase Utley. :cool:

Of course I know that's not happening.

I'm a little nervous about this one. I'm all for bringing Thome here and keeping Konerko, but I don't like the idea of trading one of our starting pitchers unless there is something else seriously in the works, like stealing Josh Beckett from the Red Sox.

For Helton or Delgado I wouldn't flinch, but for Thome there is a lot more risk IMO. Hopefully the Phils would throw in some more talent as well as a truckload of cash.

Jerko
11-22-2005, 08:57 AM
Thome missed 103 games last year. I can't see trading a starting center fielder AND the pitcher that started the first game of every playoff series for that. Unless, like posted earlier, there are deals in the works for another CF and starter that we don't know about, PLUS whatever it takes to keep Konerko. I don't buy it.

Tekijawa
11-22-2005, 08:57 AM
If this does go through, and the sox are hesitant to bring El Duque back to the starting rotation, is there a possibility that Neal Cotts could get the 5th spot?

What about Danny Wright, we haven't tried him at the 5 spot in a while!

SoxSideIrish
11-22-2005, 08:59 AM
A couple of you guys have mentioned this, and I kind of feel the same way: Kenny got roasted last winter for the moves he made. But I think they turned out "OK". As much as it makes my stomach churn to hear that we might lose some great players...I try to relax and remember that it is still November, there's a lot of off-season left. There may be more trades up KW's sleeve. Let's see how this one plays out...

...oh yeah, and I don't trust Levine any father than I can throw him.

Tragg
11-22-2005, 08:59 AM
This gives us two 4 hitters and no 3 hitter. ARe we really going to sign Konerko as well?
I think the price is awfully high. And Fla would certainly trade us Delgado for Rowand and McCarthy - they would celebrate for that deal.
The other thing is I don't see how philly really saves any salary if they take Contreras - isn't he $8.5 mill a year plus 5 mill for Rowand is > than 2/3 of Thome's salary --->that part doesn't make sense.
I think Contreras is for real; But McCarthy's key to keeping the core of our staff, long-term.
So please make it Contreras although I think we should be able to do this cheaper than the #1 starter on a world champion team plus the CF, for an old slugger off of an injury.

oeo
11-22-2005, 09:00 AM
If this does go through, and the sox are hesitant to bring El Duque back to the starting rotation, is there a possibility that Neal Cotts could get the 5th spot?

Neal was very successful out of the pen this year, don't screw it up with an experiment. I just don't see that happening, we don't need to experiment with a 5th starter again, we need to defend our championship.

Law11
11-22-2005, 09:00 AM
Cmon.. He gets 1 of every 20 of these deals right.

getonbckthr
11-22-2005, 09:00 AM
Consider the source. If Levine was always right about trades, then Griffey Jr., Javier Vazquez, and Billy Wagner would all be in Sox uniforms right now. I won't believe it till I see it.
Vasquez is a guy who wants to be traded if we could pull something off there with Arizona taking El Duque. That would be another situation where hands are tied. Because he demanded a deal, the Dbacks have to trade him by a certain date or they risk him optioning for free agency.

twsoxfan5
11-22-2005, 09:01 AM
This trade with Rowand/Contreras? OK.

This trade with Rowand/McCarthy? No so good.

I would agree with this post. At first I did not like the idea but then I thought that Contreras would probably never have another half of baseball like he did in the second half of this season. Also I dont want Kenny to stand still b/c we won a championship. I questioned all his moves last offseason but we won a championship with that team and I trust him to make any cahnges this offseason.

oeo
11-22-2005, 09:03 AM
A couple of you guys have mentioned this, and I kind of feel the same way: Kenny got roasted last winter for the moves he made. But I think they turned out "OK". As much as it makes my stomach churn to hear that we might lose some great players...I try to relax and remember that it is still November, there's a lot of off-season left. There may be more trades up KW's sleeve. Let's see how this one plays out...

...oh yeah, and I don't trust Levine any father than I can throw him.

Yes and years past, all we did was complain that Kenny made no moves in the offseason. Now he's making moves and we're still complaining? Make up your minds people!

We can't keep this whole team in tact. First of all, we still have areas that we can improve in (and what team doesn't). And second, you have to give up talent to get talent. We can't just send them Joe Borchard and hope to get Thome, we have to give something up as well.

If this trade does happen, who knows how the rest of the offseason plays out. I know there were a lot of angry people after CLee was traded, but it opened up money for us to sign AJ, Iguchi, etc.

infohawk
11-22-2005, 09:11 AM
Second, has Kenny Williams not earned a little faith, trust, and respect?
Truer words were never spoken. Let's let this play out and see what's really behind the smoke. Also remember that if KW trades one of the pitchers, he may have another trade lined up for a different pitcher. I trust in Kenny!!! We should also keep in mind that KW is probably consulting with Ozzie. Ozzie isn't about to go along with any moves that detract from "Ozzieball."

SoxFan78
11-22-2005, 09:13 AM
It still seems like alot to give for somebody that was hurt last year. Hell, Boston traded prospects for Lowell/Beckett.

What is proposed is our starting CF, and one of our two stud pitchers. Doesnt seem fair to me.

getonbckthr
11-22-2005, 09:15 AM
It still seems like alot to give for somebody that was hurt last year. Hell, Boston traded prospects for Lowell/Beckett.

What is proposed is our starting CF, and one of our two stud pitchers. Doesnt seem fair to me.
Proposed is our starting CF, where our backup is supposedly better. And one of our stud pitchers. We have 6 SP's we have a somewhat weak offense. I think this deal is a no brainer.

Kilroy
11-22-2005, 09:16 AM
This trade is crap. Why would you trade for 35 year old Thome and have to take on 30 mil when you can have 37 year old Thomas for much less. Both are showing their age in injuries. Thomas was better in 34 games than Thome was in 59, and KW is going to give up pitching and a CF for the guy? The only thing that he has that we need is that he's lefty.

The Sox come out on the short end of this in almost every aspect, unless theres another deal piggy-backed on this...

Jjav829
11-22-2005, 09:19 AM
It still seems like alot to give for somebody that was hurt last year. Hell, Boston traded prospects for Lowell/Beckett.

What is proposed is our starting CF, and one of our two stud pitchers. Doesnt seem fair to me.

First, the Red Sox gave up two highly touted prospects. Second, they are taking back a lot of money from Mike Lowell's contract. If the Sox want to take back Thome's entire contract, he could be had for next to nothing. The more money you ask the Phillies to eat, the more you have to give up.

Second, being a starting position player does not give you value. You can't say Rowand has value because he was a starter last year.

Lastly, "one of our two stud pitchers?" What two stud pitchers? Neither Contreras or McCarthy hardly qualifies as a "stud pitcher" yet.

getonbckthr
11-22-2005, 09:19 AM
You guys fail to realize that this deal will ot go through unless Thome passes a physical. According to the rumor Thome is in phenominal shape. On the other hand as another post said about Thomas. We dont have a time table for Frank's return. His injury is much more severe and has potential of being career ending.

Unregistered
11-22-2005, 09:22 AM
If this exact trade was for Delgado instead of Thome, I'd be OK with it. I think people need to remember this isn't the Jim Thome who killed us playing for the Jndians.

Meanwhile, as it stands, I've heard this is just the Phillies' trade demands for Thome. It doesn't mean KW is actually going to go through with it or won't try to mix and match players if he wants to deal for Thome.

It's Time
11-22-2005, 09:27 AM
On ESPN 1000's 9:25 update, Levine is reporting that the White Sox and Phillies are in talks that would send Jim Thome to the White Sox for Aaron Rowand and Jose Contreras or Brandon McCarthy.:?:

SoxFan78
11-22-2005, 09:27 AM
Lastly, "one of our two stud pitchers?" What two stud pitchers? Neither Contreras or McCarthy hardly qualifies as a "stud pitcher" yet.

Contreras carried the Sox through the second half and was their "stud pitcher". As far as McCarthy, I'll give you that, but he has been hailed as future "stud".

Black Sox
11-22-2005, 09:29 AM
I just heard the report on ESPN1000 and the report says that the Phillies are "interested in Rowand and a pitcher, either Contreras or McCarthy." It doesn't say the Sox are interested in trading them for Thome. It just seems to be a stating point in possible trade negotiations. I wouldn't worry about it. I can't see Kenny trading either of those two pitchers for Thome unless the Phillies were sending other players back with Thome.

Ol' No. 2
11-22-2005, 09:30 AM
Rowand and Contreras/McCarthy sounds like way overpaying. The Phils are not in a good bargaining position. They have to trade Thome and the potential destinations are pretty limited. Cleveland is the most likely alternative, and they have Hafner and Broussard, which is the reason they let Thome go in the first place. I can't see that they'd be all that interested. Even if the Phils are eating a lot of $$$, I would go with Rowand and a prospect. Good starting pitchers are a lot more valuable than aging 1B/DH.

It's Time
11-22-2005, 09:31 AM
Gah! Sorry, mods. I'll post in the thread in the clubhouse.:(:

Jjav829
11-22-2005, 09:31 AM
Contreras carried the Sox through the second half and was their "stud pitcher". As far as McCarthy, I'll give you that, but he has been hailed as future "stud".

Ok. I don't think one half of a season makes a pitcher a "stud," but that's just me. I think you have to perform at a high level for more than one season before you can be considered a "stud."

Tragg
11-22-2005, 09:31 AM
Rowand and Contreras/McCarthy sounds like way overpaying. The Phils are not in a good bargaining position. They have to trade Thome and the potential destinations are pretty limited. Cleveland is the most likely alternative, and they have Hafner and Broussard, which is the reason they let Thome go in the first place. I can't see that they'd be all that interested. Even if the Phils are eating a lot of $$$, I would go with Rowand and a prospect. Good starting pitchers are a lot more valuable than aging 1B/DH.
Well said.
I still think other teams' first instincts are to ask the world from the Sox, reverberations of Lee/Ritchie trades. So sorry Phils, we're not moving salary around (re Lee) and Kenny's a lot more experienced now (re Ritchie).

Also creates another hole, with little to trade to fill that hole.

Settembrini
11-22-2005, 09:35 AM
I just heard the report on ESPN1000 and the report says that the Phillies are "interested in Rowand and a pitcher, either Contreras or McCarthy." It doesn't say the Sox are interested in trading them for Thome. It just seems to be a stating point in possible trade negotiations. I wouldn't worry about it. I can't see Kenny trading either of those two pitchers for Thome unless the Phillies were sending other players back with Thome.

Yeah, I heard it also. The first poster got it wrong - there was nothing about "close to finalizing" in the report. It simply stated that they were having discussions.

D. TODD
11-22-2005, 09:37 AM
On ESPN 1000's 9:25 update, Levine is reporting that the White Sox and Phillies are in talks that would send Jim Thome to the White Sox for Aaron Rowand and or Jose Contreras or Brandon McCarthy.:?: Philly would have to eat the majority of Thome's contract. If they do that I would rather part with A-Row, rather then either of the pitchers. I still think this is a long shot at this point. Obviously Thome is one player that is available and would fill a need for the World Champs though.

TomBradley72
11-22-2005, 09:37 AM
Well things were getting kind of a quiet so at least we have a juicy trade rumor to obsess about. :cool:

samram
11-22-2005, 09:39 AM
Assuming the Phils eat enough salary to allow the Sox to keep Konerko, I don't see how you can argue with replacing Everett's bat with Thome's. Furthermore, assuming Anderson becomes the CF, I don't think that's a big drop off either, since all indications are that he should be better than Aaron anyway. Maybe KW signs Kenny Rogers to fill out the fifth spot. He should be pretty cheap.

I think Aaron's value to people on this board is quite a bit higher than it is to most front office personnel. Aaron Rowand's possible absence in CF should not keep a team from adding a left-handed power hitter- assuming there's a suitable replacment in CF, which would seem to be Anderson.

White Sox Randy
11-22-2005, 09:40 AM
I don't believe that is the deal the Sox will do. But, I would include a starting pitcher in a deal that included Abreu.

How about this for Thome ( 1/2 his salary ) and Abreu - Rowand, Marte and Contreras.

MUsoxfan
11-22-2005, 09:44 AM
I don't believe that is the deal the Sox will do. But, I would include a starting pitcher in a deal that included Abreu.

How about this for Thome ( 1/2 his salary ) and Abreu - Rowand, Marte and Contreras.

Why not ask for Ryan Howard and Chase Utley while you're at it?:rolleyes: Some here overvalue players on the Sox by quite a bit. Contreras' trade value will NEVER EVER be higher. He may very well be a 40 year old pitcher that caught lightning in a bottle. The Sox need a bat and Thome provides it. KW is not a stupid man. If it's not the right deal, he won't do it.

Over By There
11-22-2005, 09:45 AM
I don't believe that is the deal the Sox will do. But, I would include a starting pitcher in a deal that included Abreu.

How about this for Thome ( 1/2 his salary ) and Abreu - Rowand, Marte and Contreras.

White Sox Randy, please meet deep pink. Abreu is one of the most talented players in the game.

asindc
11-22-2005, 09:45 AM
I don't believe that is the deal the Sox will do. But, I would include a starting pitcher in a deal that included Abreu.

How about this for Thome ( 1/2 his salary ) and Abreu - Rowand, Marte and Contreras.

Of course, we as Sox fans would love that deal, but let me ask you-Putting yourself in a Phils fan's shoes, explain how that would be acceptable to the Phillies?

Jjav829
11-22-2005, 09:47 AM
I don't believe that is the deal the Sox will do. But, I would include a starting pitcher in a deal that included Abreu.

How about this for Thome ( 1/2 his salary ) and Abreu - Rowand, Marte and Contreras.

Kenny calls up and offers that trade. Pat Gillick falls over laughing, not even bothering to hang up the phone, just laughing while Kenny listens on the other end.

Point being, that's a horrible trade for the Phillies and it isn't happening.

soxfn56
11-22-2005, 09:47 AM
Maybe KW signs Kenny Rogers to fill out the fifth spot. He should be pretty cheap.

His agent is Scott Boras.

Deuce
11-22-2005, 09:51 AM
If the Phillies eat up a good chunk of Thome's salary, I'd be willing to give up Rowand and Contreras. Otherwise, they can keep him. Cleveland isn't going for him and the Twins only wish they could afford him.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 09:53 AM
Kenny calls up and offers that trade. Pat Gillick falls over laughing, not even bothering to hang up the phone, just laughing while Kenny listens on the other end.

Point being, that's a horrible trade for the Phillies and it isn't happening.

Meanwhile,

Sources tell me that the White Sox and Phillies are discussing a deal where Jim Thome and Bobby Abreu would come to Chicago for Rowand, Marte, and Contreras.....


See how easy it is?

Kenny's no fool. If he makes a trade like that, it's because he's pretty sure Contreras can't repeat last year's performance. Otherwise, he ain't doing it.

Black Sox
11-22-2005, 09:54 AM
A big NO to Kenny Rogers.

kaufsox
11-22-2005, 09:54 AM
Meanwhile, as it stands, I've heard this is just the Phillies' trade demands for Thome. It doesn't mean KW is actually going to go through with it or won't try to mix and match players if he wants to deal for Thome.

Excellent point. This is just the beginning, and it might all turn out to be nothing. Don't know why everyone seems to hate Bruce Levine. He tends to get a lot of stories and is one of the few people I've heard on-air that defends JR, especially when he had to co-host with Mariotti last year. It actually was a great exchange between Moron and Bruce. Moron kept ripping Jerry over Mags, among other things, and Bruce kept on listing what JR had done, such as paid Williams when he did not have to, the only owner to bring championships, plural to town, the only owner to get new arenas built, and on and on. While Bruce strikes out from time to time, that is the nature of his business. He reports rumors, speculation, and other epherma. It is not always going to turn out as orginally stated. Well after that defense of Bruce and beat reporting, I do believe something flame retardant would look smashing this morning :smile:

HITMEN OF 77
11-22-2005, 09:55 AM
This is a stupid trade. Jose basically saved our butts in the second half od the season from the pitching standpoint and was as solid as a rock in the playoffs. I can't see giving up Jose and a young star Rowand, for a beaten up Thome.

spiffie
11-22-2005, 09:57 AM
Only way I like this deal is if by giving them Jose/Rowand they eat all (or very close to all) or Thome's salary, giving us the cash to not only resign Paulie but to jump in the Brian Giles race. If that's the case, I'm all in favor of this. Otherwise...I'm just not feeling this move.

getonbckthr
11-22-2005, 10:00 AM
I remember Estaban Loiza pitching his heart out for us. He won 21 games, finished 2nd place for Cy Young award. Everyone thought he finally figured it out. What happened, we traded him. He got shelled in the Bronx, went to a pitcher friendly park and had a solid season. What makes everyone so sure on JOse Contreras.

JimH
11-22-2005, 10:01 AM
Remember with off-season trades, you have to wait until all deals are done for the off-season until you know what you've got.

Maybe Kenny turns around and trades for another pitcher or sign a FA pitcher or gets Pierre, etc. Don't look it as one single trade but rather look at the series of moves in an off-season.

Thank you.

Couldn't have said it better.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 10:01 AM
On ESPN 1000's 9:25 update, Levine is reporting that the White Sox and Phillies are in talks that would send Jim Thome to the White Sox for Aaron Rowand and or Jose Contreras or Brandon McCarthy.:?:

EEEEEK GADS!

Well, Jose's value has never been higher, but I would hope they'd make them take El Duque as well and that this move would free up enough salary to sign Millwood and another BIG bat other than Konerko.

samram
11-22-2005, 10:02 AM
This is a stupid trade. Jose basically saved our butts in the second half od the season from the pitching standpoint and was as solid as a rock in the playoffs. I can't see giving up Jose and a young star Rowand, for a beaten up Thome.

Aaron Rowand is not a young star. He's a nice player who plays very good defense and, given his age, is liekly putting up the best numbers he will ever put up.

Jjav829
11-22-2005, 10:04 AM
Excellent point. This is just the beginning, and it might all turn out to be nothing. Don't know why everyone seems to hate Bruce Levine. He tends to get a lot of stories and is one of the few people I've heard on-air that defends JR, especially when he had to co-host with Mariotti last year. It actually was a great exchange between Moron and Bruce. Moron kept ripping Jerry over Mags, among other things, and Bruce kept on listing what JR had done, such as paid Williams when he did not have to, the only owner to bring championships, plural to town, the only owner to get new arenas built, and on and on. While Bruce strikes out from time to time, that is the nature of his business. He reports rumors, speculation, and other epherma. It is not always going to turn out as orginally stated. Well after that defense of Bruce and beat reporting, I do believe something flame retardant would look smashing this morning :smile:

Haha, but you're right. Most people dislike Levine because they hear what the rumors he reports and assume that those rumors are going to happen. In reality, rumors are just that. Nothing is official until the player is putting on a new uniform or until the team releases something. Things change quickly in sports. You could have a deal 95% done, and then some other team calls up and makes a new offer and that other deal is off. It takes one phone call from one GM to another GM to completely change a potential trade.

Also, too many people assume that because trade (or free agent) discussions are taking place that something will happen, when in fact that's not the case.

voodoochile
11-22-2005, 10:06 AM
Contreras or McCarthy is WAY too much, IMO. I want another bat, but not at the expense of putting El Duque back into the rotation even in the 5-hole.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 10:06 AM
I remember Estaban Loiza pitching his heart out for us. He won 21 games, finished 2nd place for Cy Young award. Everyone thought he finally figured it out. What happened, we traded him. He got shelled in the Bronx, went to a pitcher friendly park and had a solid season. What makes everyone so sure on JOse Contreras.

And he had a terrific year this year, bad example. Contreras has a better arm than all but 5 pitchers in the majors. If he figured out the mental part like he did in the second half, he is one of a very few TRUE aces in the major leagues.

The only way I'd trade either Jose or McCarthy is if I felt VERY confident I could get Millwood or someone like that elsewhere. The Sox CANNOT depend on El Duque.

Jjav829
11-22-2005, 10:07 AM
I remember Estaban Loiza pitching his heart out for us. He won 21 games, finished 2nd place for Cy Young award. Everyone thought he finally figured it out. What happened, we traded him. He got shelled in the Bronx, went to a pitcher friendly park and had a solid season. What makes everyone so sure on JOse Contreras.

Because he's a White Sox! Now if he was a Cub, Twin, Yankee, Indian or Red Sox pitcher then that 2nd half would have been a fluke and he would be likely to return to his old form. But since he's a White Sox he's breaking out and about to establish himself as a top pitcher!

That's the truth of it though. People assume Contreras has turned a corner simply because he is on the White Sox. If he was anywhere else most of the same people would be calling it a fluke. That's just how it goes.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 10:07 AM
Only way I like this deal is if by giving them Jose/Rowand they eat all (or very close to all) or Thome's salary, giving us the cash to not only resign Paulie but to jump in the Brian Giles race. If that's the case, I'm all in favor of this. Otherwise...I'm just not feeling this move.

If you're giving up that much I'd be expecting to get Delgado AND Pierre back, JMO. Thome has more question marks than Delgado and Delgado is a better defender in the case where you may have to use him in the field.

Black Sox
11-22-2005, 10:07 AM
I remember Estaban Loiza pitching his heart out for us. He won 21 games, finished 2nd place for Cy Young award. Everyone thought he finally figured it out. What happened, we traded him. He got shelled in the Bronx, went to a pitcher friendly park and had a solid season. What makes everyone so sure on JOse Contreras.

Because Contreras actually has excellent stuff in comparison to Loaiza. You must also factor in all the ordeals the man had to deal with over his years in the bigs and how settled he became this year. He flat our dominated like I haven't seen in quite some time. I have no doubts he will continue the trend next year. He's also relatively cheap considering he can be a staff's ace.

mdep524
11-22-2005, 10:08 AM
KW would have to be completely out of his mind to make that trade. The Phillies have NO bargaining position at all!! They're stuck with an overpaid, old DH in the NL with a no-trade clause coming off a bad year who's lost his only position in the field to a rookie. They have no leverage!

The Phillies need to get rid of Thome at any cost. Anything they get for him at all would be a bonus. Basically, they have two options for '06, considering starting Howard at 1B is a given.


Pay Thome $12.5 mil to sit on the bench,

or

Pay Thome $5 mil AND get an Aaron Rowand/Damaso Marte/El Duque/lesser prospect on their team.


They can't shop him around, because the Sox are the only team (along with the Indians, who appear to be uninterested) that a.) is interested in Thome and b.)Thome will approve a trade to. So it's take it or leave it.

KW has to totally hold Gillick's feet over the coals on this one.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 10:09 AM
That's the truth of it though. People assume Contreras has turned a corner simply because he is on the White Sox. If he was anywhere else most of the same people would be calling it a fluke. That's just how it goes.


How many people in MLB do you really think consider Jose's 2005 to be a fluke? Everyone has always remarked about his great arm and the NY pressure. He get's out of NY, has a pitching coach that is more flexible, goes back to using the various arm angles than made him so good in Cuba, and there it is...

Loaiza learned a new pitch, threw it a ton, overworked his arm, and it cost him the next season. This year he was VERY good again.

mantis1212
11-22-2005, 10:10 AM
Contreras or McCarthy is WAY too much, IMO. I want another bat, but not at the expense of putting El Duque back into the rotation even in the 5-hole.

Most definitely. Although I WOULD send El Duque and Rowand, if the Phils eat most of Thome's salary. That may be KW's starting point on the negotiations, who knows...

MUsoxfan
11-22-2005, 10:11 AM
Because Contreras actually has excellent stuff in comparison to Loaiza. You must also factor in all the ordeals the man had to deal with over his years in the bigs and how settled he became this year. He flat our dominated like I haven't seen in quite some time. I have no doubts he will continue the trend next year. He's also relatively cheap considering he can be a staff's ace.

Loaiza had EXCELLENT stuff that year he was with us. IIRC he was among the league leaders in K's. As far as Contreras, he may have settled and found his stuff but it's just as feasible he'll return to the "norm". If the Sox can get a bat for him and a couple others I have no problem with it

Shorty1983
11-22-2005, 10:11 AM
If this trade happens, that means no big Frank?

Randar68
11-22-2005, 10:11 AM
KW would have to be completely out of his mind to make that trade. The Phillies have NO bargaining position at all!! They're stuck with an overpaid, old DH in the NL with a no-trade clause coming off a bad year who's lost his only position in the field to a rookie. They have no leverage!

The Phillies need to get rid of Thome at any cost. Anything they get for him at all would be a bonus. Basically, they have two options for '06, considering starting Howard at 1B is a given.


Pay Thome $12.5 mil to sit on the bench,

or

Pay Thome $5 mil AND get an Aaron Rowand/Damaso Marte/El Duque/lesser prospect on their team.


They can't shop him around, because the Sox are the only team (along with the Indians, who appear to be uninterested) that a.) is interested in Thome and b.)Thome will approve a trade to. So it's take it or leave it.

KW has to totally hold Gillick's feet over the coals on this one.

VERY good post. Florida is in a similar position, but the market for Delgado (and Beckett, etc) is much better than the market for Thome.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 10:12 AM
Pay Thome $12.5 mil to sit on the bench,

or

Pay Thome $5 mil AND get an Aaron Rowand/Damaso Marte/El Duque/lesser prospect on their team.




You don't know who else is interested in Thome. For example, anyone interested in Konerko (rumored to be Angels, Red Sox, maybe even Yankees) would likely have SOME interest in Thome depending on how much cash is eaten by the Phils. So there may be competition for guys like Thome/Delgado.

Given the FA market, the requirements to trade for a high salaried guy are going up. Numerous comments including from GMs that it's a weak class and guys will get overpaid make that clear. And the various rumors include things like Delgado for Lastings Milledge and/or Yusimiero Petit, which is a pretty large haul. Hell - the Red Sox just traded 2 of the top 50 prospects in baseball AND took on $18M in salary to get Beckett.

getonbckthr
11-22-2005, 10:12 AM
Because Contreras actually has excellent stuff in comparison to Loaiza. You must also factor in all the ordeals the man had to deal with over his years in the bigs and how settled he became this year. He flat our dominated like I haven't seen in quite some time. I have no doubts he will continue the trend next year. He's also relatively cheap considering he can be a staff's ace.
Your gonna tell me Loiaza didn't have excellent stuff! 207 strikeouts 59 walks. A dominating fastball and a cutter that was just disgusting and unhittable. Like it was said earlier Contreras is turning a corner because he is our pitcher. If he was anywhere else it was a fluke.

Jjav829
11-22-2005, 10:13 AM
How many people in MLB do you really think consider Jose's 2005 to be a fluke? Everyone has always remarked about his great arm and the NY pressure. He get's out of NY, has a pitching coach that is more flexible, goes back to using the various arm angles than made him so good in Cuba, and there it is...

Loaiza learned a new pitch, threw it a ton, overworked his arm, and it cost him the next season. This year he was VERY good again.

I don't know how many consider it a fluke. But Contreras is 33 and has pitched one good half of baseball. He might have finally figured it out and be on his way to being a consistent good pitcher. Or he might revert to old habits and never develop that consistency. No one really knows either way, but there's a case to be made both ways.

kittle42
11-22-2005, 10:14 AM
Because he's a White Sox! Now if he was a Cub, Twin, Yankee, Indian or Red Sox pitcher then that 2nd half would have been a fluke and he would be likely to return to his old form. But since he's a White Sox he's breaking out and about to establish himself as a top pitcher!

That's the truth of it though. People assume Contreras has turned a corner simply because he is on the White Sox. If he was anywhere else most of the same people would be calling it a fluke. That's just how it goes.


We have a winner, folks.

This is the problem with discussing trades on this site for a good number of people. Fans of a team tend to overvalue their team's players because they see them play every day. This is why so many brilliant armchair GMs continually suggested packaging Borchard and Willie Harris for anything more than a bag of magical beans, or advocated the playing of perennial AAAA powerhouse Crash Davis, oh I mean Ross Gload, at 1B every day before last season started.

I would propose that if the Sox had Thome, and the Phillies had Rowand/Contreras, here's what some would be saying:

"Are you crazy? We can't get rid of Thome. We need the left-handed stick and he'll be awesome when he's healthy this year! Plus, he walks a ton. Rowand's power numbers were way down and we could just play Anderson there, anyway. Contreras was awesome in the second half, but come on, that's a risky proposition because there's no guarantee that he was more than a second-half wonder."

See how easy it is?

I am surprised some of you didn't say we should give Geoff Blum a starting role this year because he hit one huge HR in the Series.

Black Sox
11-22-2005, 10:15 AM
Loaiza had EXCELLENT stuff that year he was with us. IIRC he was among the league leaders in K's. As far as Contreras, he may have settled and found his stuff but it's just as feasible he'll return to the "norm". If the Sox can get a bat for him and a couple others I have no problem with it

Loaiza did have excellent stuff that year(a great new pitch). I won't debate that. Yet he's not in the same league with Contreras' stuff. As has been mentioned above, Contreras has some of the best stuff in the bigs. Can the same be said for Loaiza?

mdep524
11-22-2005, 10:15 AM
Excellent point. This is just the beginning, and it might all turn out to be nothing. Don't know why everyone seems to hate Bruce Levine. He tends to get a lot of stories and is one of the few people I've heard on-air that defends JR, especially when he had to co-host with Mariotti last year. It actually was a great exchange between Moron and Bruce. Moron kept ripping Jerry over Mags, among other things, and Bruce kept on listing what JR had done, such as paid Williams when he did not have to, the only owner to bring championships, plural to town, the only owner to get new arenas built, and on and on. While Bruce strikes out from time to time, that is the nature of his business. He reports rumors, speculation, and other epherma. It is not always going to turn out as orginally stated. Well after that defense of Bruce and beat reporting, I do believe something flame retardant would look smashing this morning :smile: Great post. I may dislike Levine because he is a Cubs fan first (and it shows in his reporting sometimes- not all the time) and because he acts immature and look like a baby once in a while (incidents with Dolgin), but the man does everything he can to report rumors. He's not intentionally trying to mislead listeners! He gathers what information is available to him and gives it to the public. It seems like people expect reporters like Levine to do more than he is capable of.

getonbckthr
11-22-2005, 10:15 AM
You don't know who else is interested in Thome. For example, anyone interested in Konerko (rumored to be Angels, Red Sox, maybe even Yankees) would likely have SOME interest in Thome depending on how much cash is eaten by the Phils. So there may be competition for guys like Thome/Delgado.

Given the FA market, the requirements to trade for a high salaried guy are going up. Numerous comments including from GMs that it's a weak class and guys will get overpaid make that clear. And the various rumors include things like Delgado for Lastings Milledge and/or Yusimiero Petit, which is a pretty large haul. Hell - the Red Sox just traded 2 of the top 50 prospects in baseball AND took on $18M in salary to get Beckett.
Thome has a no trade clause. He has said he wants to play somewhere close to home in the midwest, also where he could DH. Supposedly he mentioned specifically Cleveland and the White Sox.

Jjav829
11-22-2005, 10:16 AM
You don't know who else is interested in Thome. For example, anyone interested in Konerko (rumored to be Angels, Red Sox, maybe even Yankees) would likely have SOME interest in Thome depending on how much cash is eaten by the Phils. So there may be competition for guys like Thome/Delgado.

Given the FA market, the requirements to trade for a high salaried guy are going up. Numerous comments including from GMs that it's a weak class and guys will get overpaid make that clear. And the various rumors include things like Delgado for Lastings Milledge and/or Yusimiero Petit, which is a pretty large haul. Hell - the Red Sox just traded 2 of the top 50 prospects in baseball AND took on $18M in salary to get Beckett.

Exactly. A lot of people act like it's just a matter of the Sox and Phillies determining how much Thome is worth. That's not the case. There are other teams that are likely to have interest in Thome so the Sox are going to be bidding in an attempt to beat those other teams. We have no idea where Thome would accept a trade to. Yeah, we hear the Sox and Indians are the only two teams. But, if the Phillies find a trade that works with the Angels, they can force Thome's hand by telling him that this is his only option.

Mickster
11-22-2005, 10:17 AM
Thome has a no trade clause. He has said he wants to play somewhere close to home in the midwest, also where he could DH. Supposedly he mentioned specifically Cleveland and the White Sox.

That, in and of itself, should actually lower the Phil's asking price......

Randar68
11-22-2005, 10:19 AM
they can force Thome's hand by telling him that this is his only option.

How can they force his hand? He has a NO TRADE CLAUSE. He can tell them he doesn't want to go there and the Phillies have no options left. They can sit him on the bench and play him, or trade him to one of the teams he approves.

The only way these guys waive their preferences to go to a different team than their preferred team is if that team offers a contract extension with more money tacked on. Nobody is going to do that for Thome.

Baby Fisk
11-22-2005, 10:19 AM
Gillick is not exactly the mastermind that people make him out to be. He won two world championships because Toronto spent money like drunken sailors. Even Theo Epstein can win a world championship that way. Anyway, I agree with mdep524's post above: the deal as described in the first post is too lopsided to happen. Gillick has little bargaining power here.

Black Sox
11-22-2005, 10:19 AM
We have a winner, folks.

This is the problem with discussing trades on this site for a good number of people. Fans of a team tend to overvalue their team's players because they see them play every day. This is why so many brilliant armchair GMs continually suggested packaging Borchard and Willie Harris for anything more than a bag of magical beans, or advocated the playing of perennial AAAA powerhouse Crash Davis, oh I mean Ross Gload, at 1B every day before last season started.

I would propose that if the Sox had Thome, and the Phillies had Rowand/Contreras, here's what some would be saying:

"Are you crazy? We can't get rid of Thome. We need the left-handed stick and he'll be awesome when he's healthy this year! Plus, he walks a ton. Rowand's power numbers were way down and we could just play Anderson there, anyway. Contreras was awesome in the second half, but come on, that's a risky proposition because there's no guarantee that he was more than a second-half wonder."

See how easy it is?

I am surprised some of you didn't say we should give Geoff Blum a starting role this year because he hit one huge HR in the Series.


I happen to believe that I'm pretty objective when it comes to our players. I think a lot of Sox fans our objective too. Not to say all of them are either...

But we found a winning formula and we are smart enough to know that you don't give up pitching for an overpaid 35 year-old with injury concerns. Its not about overrating players. I just heard Dan Patrick say no way to the deal from the Sox standpoint. So this discussion has nothing to do with overrating players. Visit the ESPN boards if you want to talk about overrating players.

The Deacon
11-22-2005, 10:21 AM
Great post. I may dislike Levine because he is a Cubs fan first (and it shows in his reporting sometimes- not all the time) and because he acts immature and look like a baby once in a while (incidents with Dolgin), but the man does everything he can to report rumors. He's not intentionally trying to mislead listeners! He gathers what information is available to him and gives it to the public. It seems like people expect reporters like Levine to do more than he is capable of.


I like Levine. He is also on record as being niehter a Cubs or Sox fan. He is from the East Coast and leans towards the Yankees. I think during the playoffs he tooks calls form irate SOX fans evey ngiht calling him out for being a Cubs fan.
But you're right. There is only so much reporters can do. They listen to stuff through the grapevine and report it. Sometimes they are right, more often they are wrong.
If these trade rumors turn out to be true, I'm all for it. As long as it is is Contreras, not McCarthy.. Sell high I say!

Jjav829
11-22-2005, 10:23 AM
How can they force his hand? He has a NO TRADE CLAUSE. He can tell them he doesn't want to go there and the Phillies have no options left. They can sit him on the bench and play him, or trade him to one of the teams he approves.

The only way these guys waive their preferences to go to a different team than their preferred team is if that team offers a contract extension with more money tacked on. Nobody is going to do that for Thome.

Thome wants out. He understands that he won't play because of Ryan Howard. He's admitted in recent days that he understands the business side of baseball and understands that the Phillies would rather play Ryan Howard at 1B. You don't think Thome would rather go someplace where he can have a chance to play every day?

It's not that hard to figure out. The Phillies go to him and say that they can't come to terms on a trade with the White Sox/Indians, or even tell him those teams aren't interested in his services. They tell him that they have found a suitor in the Angels and have a trade worked out, pending Thome's approval. Thome decides that he would rather have a chance to play every day, knowing that Howard isn't going to be sitting, so he decides to accept the trade elsewhere.

MisterB
11-22-2005, 10:24 AM
You don't know who else is interested in Thome. For example, anyone interested in Konerko (rumored to be Angels, Red Sox, maybe even Yankees) would likely have SOME interest in Thome depending on how much cash is eaten by the Phils. So there may be competition for guys like Thome/Delgado.

Remember that Thome has a no-trade clause, so it matters less who is interested in Thome and more what team he's willing to go to.

mdep524
11-22-2005, 10:24 AM
I would propose that if the Sox had Thome, and the Phillies had Rowand/Contreras, here's what some would be saying:

"Are you crazy? We can't get rid of Thome. We need the left-handed stick and he'll be awesome when he's healthy this year! Plus, he walks a ton. Rowand's power numbers were way down and we could just play Anderson there, anyway. Contreras was awesome in the second half, but come on, that's a risky proposition because there's no guarantee that he was more than a second-half wonder."

See how easy it is? Yes, I agree, BUT you are missing one huge point- you said "we need the left-handed stick." Philly doesn't need Thome, in fact it's more than that. They have literally no use for Thome whatsoever. He's not even a starter on their team anymore! And he's making $12.5 mil in '06 and $14 mil in '07 and '08.

Thus, from a Sox perspective, the situation is more akin to the Konerko after the '03 season. Remember how everyone wanted him traded for a bag of balls? Anything! We were begging the Dodgers to take him, and we (as fans) we willing to throw in a good part of his ridiculous (at the time) $8 mil salary. :o: Now imagine the situation, intensified by a.) the fact that Thome's contract is larger than Konerko's and b.) the fact that they already have Thome's replacement in place (something the Sox did NOT have after '03).

Black Sox
11-22-2005, 10:24 AM
Your gonna tell me Loiaza didn't have excellent stuff! 207 strikeouts 59 walks. A dominating fastball and a cutter that was just disgusting and unhittable. Like it was said earlier Contreras is turning a corner because he is our pitcher. If he was anywhere else it was a fluke.

You sound just like all those Boston, Angel, and to a smaller degree, Astros' fans that called the Sox a fluke after we steam rolled over their teams. A fluke? Contreras has always had his excellent stuff and much has been expected of him. He finally got into the right situation and put it together. Loaiza is not in the same class.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 10:26 AM
Thome wants out. He understands that he won't play because of Ryan Howard. He's admitted in recent days that he understands the business side of baseball and understands that the Phillies would rather play Ryan Howard at 1B. You don't think Thome would rather go someplace where he can have a chance to play every day?

It's not that hard to figure out. The Phillies go to him and say that they can't come to terms on a trade with the White Sox/Indians, or even tell him those teams aren't interested in his services. They tell him that they have found a suitor in the Angels and have a trade worked out, pending Thome's approval. Thome decides that he would rather have a chance to play every day, knowing that Howard isn't going to be sitting, so he decides to accept the trade elsewhere.

LOL! Thome knows that isn't true and if the Phillies don't make a legit attempt at dealing him to the teams he has requested, he can stick it to them. They will be forced to move him to a team he approves. It really is that simple. How many teams have to have their hands forced and held hostage by players to figure this out? Player tells them which teams they'll accept trades to, organization listens to all offers, takes the best one back to Thome's reps and says this is our best offer, will you go there? If Thome says no, they move down the list.

Teams know that the more public and the longer these things drag out, the less value they get in the end. The incentive is there to do a deal to one of his approved teams as soon as possible to avoid any animosity building up as well as to avoid the publicity that will drive the price down by publicly limiting the market.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 10:29 AM
Thome wants out. He understands that he won't play because of Ryan Howard. He's admitted in recent days that he understands the business side of baseball and understands that the Phillies would rather play Ryan Howard at 1B. You don't think Thome would rather go someplace where he can have a chance to play every day?

It's not that hard to figure out. The Phillies go to him and say that they can't come to terms on a trade with the White Sox/Indians, or even tell him those teams aren't interested in his services. They tell him that they have found a suitor in the Angels and have a trade worked out, pending Thome's approval. Thome decides that he would rather have a chance to play every day, knowing that Howard isn't going to be sitting, so he decides to accept the trade elsewhere.

What he said.

As far as the cash part of things goes - just remember this: as much as we're saying "Hey, trading for Delgado is a good deal because he's better than anyone on the FA market and his salary's not out of line with the market and he doesn't have a really long contract", you think other team's don't know that?

Looking at it that way, the Marlins, Phillies, etc can go to a number of teams and get them to bid against each other for these guys. Yes, the market for a high-salaried player is not the entire league, but there are enough teams looking for a hitter that it's not as simple as saying "I'll take the salary, give him to me for free". Hell - even the Royals are rumored to be making a solid payroll bump.

Jjav829
11-22-2005, 10:34 AM
LOL! Thome knows that isn't true and if the Phillies don't make a legit attempt at dealing him to the teams he has requested, he can stick it to them. They will be forced to move him to a team he approves. It really is that simple. How many teams have to have their hands forced and held hostage by players to figure this out? Player tells them which teams they'll accept trades to, organization listens to all offers, takes the best one back to Thome's reps and says this is our best offer, will you go there? If Thome says no, they move down the list.

Teams know that the more public and the longer these things drag out, the less value they get in the end. The incentive is there to do a deal to one of his approved teams as soon as possible to avoid any animosity building up as well as to avoid the publicity that will drive the price down by publicly limiting the market.

Thome knows what we know. Nothing more. He knows the media reports have the Indians and White Sox interested. In this case there are only two teams. It isn't a list that they can move down. If neither of those two teams wants Thome, or refuses to give up what the Phillies want, the Phillies can go to Thome and tell him that neither team has interest.

Besides, this is all based on the speculation that Thome would only approve a trade to the Sox or Indians. We do not know that for a fact. For all we know if the Phillies went to Thome with a trade to the Angels he would waive his no trade clause.

Also, this is all about trade leverage. If the Phillies get the Sox believing that the Thome would accept a trade to the Angels (or whatever team), the Sox have a lot less leverage.

BTW, Silvy just gave WSI a shoutout. :cool: Edit: Well, he actually asked for help from us WSI'ers. He is talking about a play years back where Jeter yelled "Balk" and drew a balk call from some pitcher. Silvy thinks it was Bill Simas. A caller claims it was Mike Sirotka. If you remember the play email him and give the answer.

Stoky44
11-22-2005, 10:35 AM
I agree he's earned some faith and trust....but still haunted by Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch and David Wells. :cool:


Don't forget the Koch deal got us Cotts.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 10:35 AM
LOL! Thome knows that isn't true and if the Phillies don't make a legit attempt at dealing him to the teams he has requested, he can stick it to them. They will be forced to move him to a team he approves. It really is that simple. How many teams have to have their hands forced and held hostage by players to figure this out? Player tells them which teams they'll accept trades to, organization listens to all offers, takes the best one back to Thome's reps and says this is our best offer, will you go there? If Thome says no, they move down the list.

Teams know that the more public and the longer these things drag out, the less value they get in the end. The incentive is there to do a deal to one of his approved teams as soon as possible to avoid any animosity building up as well as to avoid the publicity that will drive the price down by publicly limiting the market.

It's a game of chicken. But the Phils aren't going to give him away just to do so, not when they have potential multiple bidders. And it all depends on how badly Thome wants to come here. I don't know him personally, but he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who'd hold up the Phils to come here rather than say Anaheim.

whitesoxfan1986
11-22-2005, 10:38 AM
Rowand and Contreras- maybe. Rowand and McCarthy- HELL NO!!!
THERE IS NO EFFING WAY KW SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT MCCARTHY. MCCARTHY SHOULD BE UNTOUCHABLE!!! McCarthy to the Sox= Howard to the Phillies. No Question. The only way McCarthy should be even remotely discussed is in a trade for Howard.

pythons007
11-22-2005, 10:39 AM
This is what I think the Sox should do:


1. Trade Pierre for a bag of balls
2. Trade for Thome giving up some single A player
3. Resign Konerko

It's that simple, get it done Kenny!!:tongue:

mdep524
11-22-2005, 10:41 AM
Thome knows what we know. Nothing more. He knows the media reports have the Indians and White Sox interested. In this case there are only two teams. It isn't a list that they can move down. If neither of those two teams wants Thome, or refuses to give up what the Phillies want, the Phillies can go to Thome and tell him that neither team has interest.

Besides, this is all based on the speculation that Thome would only approve a trade to the Sox or Indians. We do not know that for a fact. For all we know if the Phillies went to Thome with a trade to the Angels he would waive his no trade clause.

Also, this is all about trade leverage. If the Phillies get the Sox believing that the Thome would accept a trade to the Angels (or whatever team), the Sox have a lot less leverage. I'm not buying that. Thome has made it known he wants to play in the Midwest, Anaheim is about as far from the midwest as you can get. Ultimately, Thome has the final word on all this. He can force the organization's hand, not the other way around. If Gillick comes to Thome and says "Well, the White Sox aren't meeting our demands." Thome can turn around and laugh and say "Have fun paying me $12.5 mil to sit next to Charlie Manuel in the dugout all day!" Since he knows the Phillies don't want that to happen, they'll lower their price and negotiate further with the Sox.

Both Thome and the Sox have the leverage here, the Phillies have nothing. Don't give them more credit than they're due.

DaleJRFan
11-22-2005, 10:42 AM
Contreras is my favorite Sox pitcher. I'd be bummed if they sent him to Phillie. :(:

If the Sox send Contreras AND Rowand for Thome, the Phillies had better be eating half of Thome's deal. :angry:

Randar68
11-22-2005, 10:44 AM
It's a game of chicken. But the Phils aren't going to give him away just to do so, not when they have potential multiple bidders. And it all depends on how badly Thome wants to come here. I don't know him personally, but he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who'd hold up the Phils to come here rather than say Anaheim.

It's already public that Thome wants to stay in the midwest. That damage is done. How many teams is that? 5? Sox, Cubs, Injuns, Royals, Brewers, Reds, Twins, Tigers? At least 2/3rds of those teams aren't players.

The thing is, if the Sox want Thome, and are making offers to the Phils, Thome knows as much. If they can't come to an agreement and the Sox are the only team fitting his criteria, he tells them to make it happen. The power is all in Thome's hands, not sure why people aren't recognizing that about this situation. Giles did this when with Pittsburg. Terrell Owens, the list is long. Teams almost NEVER bypass a player's wishes in these situations because when they start going that route it pisses the player off, things become public, ugly, and the team gets less value.

The Anaheim talk is premature. They can always go out and get Manny or sign Konerko, as has been suggested, if they're going to take on salary and trade away value. Only 1 or 2 teams could trade for Manny.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 10:45 AM
I'm not buying that. Thome has made it known he wants to play in the Midwest, Anaheim is about as far from the midwest as you can get. Ultimately, Thome has the final word on all this. He can force the organization's hand, not the other way around. If Gillick comes to Thome and says "Well, the White Sox aren't meeting our demands." Thome can turn around and laugh and say "Have fun paying me $12.5 mil to sit next to Charlie Manuel in the dugout all day!" Since he knows the Phillies don't want that to happen, they'll lower their price and negotiate further with the Sox.

Both Thome and the Sox have the leverage here, the Phillies have nothing. Don't give them more credit than they're due.

Bingo.

The only thing that could really throw a wrench into this is if some team comes in and makes a deal Philly can't refuse for Howard and the Phills keep Thome. I see that as less likely, but you never know.

Baby Fisk
11-22-2005, 10:45 AM
:tomatoaward

Tomato for now, but the Passionate Shower looms over this thread...

TDog
11-22-2005, 10:52 AM
I don't pretend to have any inside information. But I have some ideas on what I think the Sox should do, especially considering they now know a little something about how to win.

I wouldn't trade pitching. I certainly wouldn't trade one of the top four starters. I like Aaron Rowand. I think he was a bigger part of this year's Sox success more than many people around here, and don't want to see him go. But maintaining a solid rotation would be my priority.

Many baseball people question whether Thome is healthy. In the deal-making business, that should favor the Sox position in efforts to acquire him. I wouldn't want to see the Sox trade Contreras for Thome, even up.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 10:55 AM
It's already public that Thome wants to stay in the midwest. That damage is done. How many teams is that? 5? Sox, Cubs, Injuns, Royals, Brewers, Reds, Twins, Tigers? At least 2/3rds of those teams aren't players.

The thing is, if the Sox want Thome, and are making offers to the Phils, Thome knows as much. If they can't come to an agreement and the Sox are the only team fitting his criteria, he tells them to make it happen. The power is all in Thome's hands, not sure why people aren't recognizing that about this situation. Giles did this when with Pittsburg. Terrell Owens, the list is long. Teams almost NEVER bypass a player's wishes in these situations because when they start going that route it pisses the player off, things become public, ugly, and the team gets less value.

The Anaheim talk is premature. They can always go out and get Manny or sign Konerko, as has been suggested, if they're going to take on salary and trade away value. Only 1 or 2 teams could trade for Manny.

The actual blurb on Thome's "demand" said: Jim Thome indicated in an interview with the Philadelphia Inquirer that he would be willing to accept a trade to the Indians and probably the White Sox.
While there might be some other American League teams he'd also be willing to join, he'd prefer to stay in the Midwest. Thome is supposed to be in great shape as he recovers from elbow surgery, but it's still possible that he won't be dealt until spring training.

Not exactly "I will only play in the midwest". Sounds more like someone asked him where he'd like to go if dealt and he named some teams. Not that he said those were the only ones.

JRIG
11-22-2005, 10:58 AM
I wouldn't trade pitching. I certainly wouldn't trade one of the top four starters. I like Aaron Rowand. I think he was a bigger part of this year's Sox success more than many people around here, and don't want to see him go. But maintaining a solid rotation would be my priority.



I like Rowand, and his defense I think was actually an underrated part of our success last year. That said, he's a very valuable commodity at this point, and might be the best bargaining chip we have. Brian Anderson is ready, IMO, and deserves a shot at center field next year.

I'd be much more concerned if we gave up McCarthy. I'm a big fan. And while Contreras was so good down the stretch last year, he's still a free agent after 2006, and I can't shake the name of "Loaiza" off my mind when talking about his drastic turnaround.

I'm good with this if it's Rowand and Contreras for Thome. The question at that point is, do you roll the dice that Frank can contribute at some level next year, and sign someone to rotate with him in the DH role? Then let Konerko walk and let Thome play 1B full time? I'm getting ahead of myself...

Ol' No. 2
11-22-2005, 10:59 AM
If you think about other teams that might be interested in Thome, none have a surplus of pitching that they could trade. Solid starters are always worth more than aging 1B/DH with ouchy backs. We all know Hernandez isn't going to be able to start more than 15-20 games next year, so trading a starter would put them right back to the 5th starter carousel we had before. Given the effort KW spent trying to assemble a solid 5-man rotation, I don't see him giving that up so easily. He could go out and sign Millwood or someone like that but what's the point in throwing Contreras into the deal to get the Phils to eat part of Thome's contract, only to spend the money on Millwood? Wouldn't they be better off taking Thome's contract and keeping Contreras?

IMO, Rowand/Contreras would far exceed what any other team would be willing/able to do.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 10:59 AM
Not exactly "I will only play in the midwest". Sounds more like someone asked him where he'd like to go if dealt and he named some teams. Not that he said those were the only ones.

That is true. But he has a complete no-trade clause. The teams he will accept a trade to are entirely up to him, not the Phillies.

Keep in mind his home in Ohio, having school-aged children, and being in a position where he can dictate where he plays, and I think it a near impossibility that he would even consider a trade to a West coast team.

mweflen
11-22-2005, 11:01 AM
Rowand is one of the 'heart and soul' players on this team. He is young, doesn't make too much money, and produces on both ends of the field.

Trading him for Thome is absolutely insane, unless there is a Juan Pierre deal in the making as well.

Thome for Contreras, I'd do. Thome is a proven performer, and Contreras, though good, is quite old. His value will likely never be higher. The salaries are nearly a wash if Philly kicks in some money.

clarkent
11-22-2005, 11:02 AM
I was just speaking with someone in the Sox organiaztion-- I know you are happy for me! This trade is absolute rubbish. Bruce is full of it!!

DaleJRFan
11-22-2005, 11:03 AM
I guess this is the first big bull**** trade rumor thread of the off-season. How soon 'til it makes it's "What's the Score" debut?

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 11:04 AM
That is true. But he has a complete no-trade clause. The teams he will accept a trade to are entirely up to him, not the Phillies.

The point is that Thome doesn't seem like the kind of guy who's going to put up a stink about this. And he has little to no allegiance to the Sox. He's from Peoria, but IIRC grew up a Cub fan. So IMO it's unlikely he's going to make it a "Cleveland/Chicago or nowhere" type of deal, which gives the Phillies a stronger negotiating position.

As for trading Contreras, don't forget that KW thinks ahead of the game. Contreras is FA after this year. If KW thinks for similar money he can have Millwood+Thome or Contreras+Thome, he may opt for the guy he'll have signed longer-term. Assuming he thinks they're equivalent as pitchers.

But IMO it's highly unlikely that KW trades a pitcher to put Duque back into the rotation. He'll make sure there are 5 starters of the caliber of the guys we have now.

tebman
11-22-2005, 11:05 AM
I was just speaking with someone in the Sox organiaztion-- I know you are happy for me! This trade is absolute rubbish. Bruce is full of it!!
Thanks, Clark -- your explanation makes a lot more sense than Levine's.

Will KW make trades? Of course he will -- but this one just didn't add up.

getonbckthr
11-22-2005, 11:06 AM
People are worried about Thome is banged up and his age. The White Sox have a history of bringing in injury prone players and rejuvinating thier careers.Cal Eldred, Julio FRanco, Ellis Burks, Bo Jackson, I believe Loiaza had a history of injury problems, and Dye (even though for 1 season). With that information why couldn't they do the same with Thome. ON the subject of his age Sheffield (37), Bonds(41), Franco (47), Chipper(will be 34 opening day), burnitz (36) to name a few players who are, in your eyes, old. Thome is 35 years old. He isn't actually ancient. Delgado is 2 years younger than Thome, which isn't a huge deal.

DaleJRFan
11-22-2005, 11:06 AM
Will KW make trades? Of course he will -- but this one just didn't add up.

The question is, when will the Wes Helms trade rumor surface?

whitesoxfan1986
11-22-2005, 11:08 AM
The point is that Thome doesn't seem like the kind of guy who's going to put up a stink about this. And he has little to no allegiance to the Sox. He's from Peoria, but IIRC grew up a Cub fan. So IMO it's unlikely he's going to make it a "Cleveland/Chicago or nowhere" type of deal, which gives the Phillies a stronger negotiating position.

As for trading Contreras, don't forget that KW thinks ahead of the game. Contreras is FA after this year. If KW thinks for similar money he can have Millwood+Thome or Contreras+Thome, he may opt for the guy he'll have signed longer-term. Assuming he thinks they're equivalent as pitchers.

But IMO it's highly unlikely that KW trades a pitcher to put Duque back into the rotation. He'll make sure there are 5 starters of the caliber of the guys we have now.

KW will not sign Millwood. He is a Boras client. I don't get why anyone is talking about him as a replacement for (insert pitcher who may be traded).

Black Sox
11-22-2005, 11:09 AM
As for trading Contreras, don't forget that KW thinks ahead of the game. Contreras is FA after this year. If KW thinks for similar money he can have Millwood+Thome or Contreras+Thome, he may opt for the guy he'll have signed longer-term. Assuming he thinks they're equivalent as pitchers.

But IMO it's highly unlikely that KW trades a pitcher to put Duque back into the rotation. He'll make sure there are 5 starters of the caliber of the guys we have now.

Good point.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 11:12 AM
KW will not sign Millwood. He is a Boras client. I don't get why anyone is talking about him as a replacement for (insert pitcher who may be traded).

Milwood was an example, as in "a pitcher like Kevin Millwood". Not specifically that guy. The point remains that KW could say "I can get equivalent value from FA Pitcher+Thome as Contreras+Thome and have a guy signed longer-term".

Randar68
11-22-2005, 11:13 AM
The point is that Thome doesn't seem like the kind of guy who's going to put up a stink about this. And he has little to no allegiance to the Sox. He's from Peoria, but IIRC grew up a Cub fan. So IMO it's unlikely he's going to make it a "Cleveland/Chicago or nowhere" type of deal, which gives the Phillies a stronger negotiating position.


He has a family in the midwest, is financially secure, and has control over which teams he will play for. Instead, he's going to accept a trade to the West Coast and be 3+ hours from his family? ummmm, ok.

Stoky44
11-22-2005, 11:13 AM
I am not a big fan of this trade. Give up pitching, speed and defense for a slow guy who won't play in the field, he's not going to be our everyday 1B. Think about what brought our success in 05, this deal seems like a move toward the 04 team. You don't give up a #1 starter for an old/injured player. Thome is great, but we saw what kind of team won the world series. I take a pass unless, we only give up a minor league pitcher or orlando.

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 11:13 AM
I refuse to believe that KW would even entertain such a move after all the team has been through dealing with Frank's uncertain status. If you want a big time DH with a big time question mark on his head, we already have Frank and we can resign him for much cheaper without giving up anything at all. Thome = ****ing pointless move IMO.

Trading a starter and our overrated CF for a big bat is just fine with me since we are trading from an area of depth, but if we are making a deal with the Phils then I'd ask for Abreu and nothing less. He can play corner OF and DH which gives us a ton more flexibility, plus the chances of him being healthy and playing 140 games is much, much stronger.

Face it: if ANY of our top four starters were FA this offseason nobody would be talking about Burnett, Millwood, etc. That said, any of our top four starters should command quite a bit, certainly more than an aging injury-prone 1B/DH who only subtracts from the versatility of this team. And if there are other teams who wouldn't want to trade for Contreras because they think he's a fluke, good. I'd rather deal someone else instead and keep him for Game 1 of the 2006 playoffs.

IMO, if Abreu is a no, screw Thome, let's start asking around. And if KW is set on getting a LH power hitter who plays first, I'd rather give up prospects to Tampa Bay for Huff.

Foulke You
11-22-2005, 11:15 AM
Ok, time for me to weigh in...

Contreras was the rock of the rotation the 2nd half and started the first game of every playoff series which speaks volumes about what Ozzie thinks of him as a pitcher. He was also our stopper when we went through that rough stretch in late August/early September. The reason Jose became successful is he found tremendous command of both his fastball, forkball, and split. He wasn't walking people anymore like he was in '04 and in the first half of '05. Whatever he was doing wrong then, El Duque and Don Cooper figured out and got Contreras completely on track in the 2nd half.

The people saying "sell high" on Contreras are making the assumption that he is going to somehow magically forget how to locate his pitches again. I don't think this is going to happen. The Loaiza comparison is not a good comparison. To me, its apples and oranges. First of all, Loaiza had a great season but it ended in September of '03. Contreras pitched on the biggest stage of them all in October and dominated against the best teams in all of baseball in pressure packed situations. Loaiza was an "untouchable" and his option was immediately picked up for the '04 season (and rightfully so) based upon his 21 win performance in '03. However, Loaiza had offseason surgery in '04 if I recall correctly and when he came back, his cutter was not popping the mit at 92 mph anymore. The cutter was more like 87mph and suddenly Loaiza was very vulnerable in the American League. KW did not pull the trigger on a Loaiza trade in July until he saw that Loaiza's cutter was not the same. Contreras is quite healthy and seems poised to have a 15 to 18 win type season. Why trade him now when there doesn't appear to be any evidence why he'll fold next year other than doubters saying "he's a fluke".

I hear where some of you are coming from on the "1 year wonder" angle, but a starting pitcher that did what Contreras did last year just don't grow on trees. Throw in our gold glove caliber CF Aaron Rowand and it seems too much to give for Thome and his bloated contract. Thome is a tremendous power threat, but a starter like Jose is difficult to replace. If we do move Jose, I have to think KW has to have another stud starter in mind to replace him.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 11:15 AM
IMO, if Abreu is a no, screw Thome, let's start asking around. And if KW is set on getting a LH power hitter who plays first, I'd rather give up prospects to Tampa Bay for Huff.

Delgado > Helton > Thome >>>>>> Huff.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 11:18 AM
He has a family in the midwest, is financially secure, and has control over which teams he will play for. Instead, he's going to accept a trade to the West Coast and be 3+ hours from his family? ummmm, ok.

He's also quite used to being away from said family, and no one knows whether they're close, or hate each other and don't see one another except at XMas. Or he may prefer to go somewhere where he feels he's more wanted because the team's willing to give up more. Or he may think "Hmmm...might not be bad to live on SoCal for a few years, I hear it's nice".

It's pure speculation. That's the point - his comments to date are not indicative of a stand on where he wants to go, they seem much more like something off the top of his head. So to assume the Sox can effectively hold up the Phils is a pretty big leap.

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 11:19 AM
Delgado > Helton > Thome >>>>>> Huff.

Delgado and Helton?? I never mentioned those names. Those are two guys who would actually be worth Rowand and a starter.

Huff, healthy and in the Cell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $12M benchwarmer

SOecks
11-22-2005, 11:22 AM
Turn on Carm & Silvy on 1000 now. They just said Levine was coming back after this commercial to talk about the rumors.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 11:30 AM
He's also quite used to being away from said family, and no one knows whether they're close, or hate each other and don't see one another except at XMas. Or he may prefer to go somewhere where he feels he's more wanted because the team's willing to give up more. Or he may think "Hmmm...might not be bad to live on SoCal for a few years, I hear it's nice".

It's pure speculation. That's the point - his comments to date are not indicative of a stand on where he wants to go, they seem much more like something off the top of his head. So to assume the Sox can effectively hold up the Phils is a pretty big leap.

He hates his wife and kids? Would be an interesting development...

Randar68
11-22-2005, 11:32 AM
Huff, healthy and in the Cell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $12M benchwarmer

WHO? The guy who hits 40+ HR's and takes 100+ walks every year he's been healthy? The guy coming off Tommy John surgery who would be a DH?

Interesting... never heard those types of players referred to as "bench warmers" before...

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 11:32 AM
Turn on Carm & Silvy on 1000 now. They just said Levine was coming back after this commercial to talk about the rumors.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:8bHZ0223yKcJ:images.radcity.net/5176/971731.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.radcity.net/5176/971731.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.espnradio1000.com/showdj.asp%3FDJID%3D24318&h=110&w=220&sz=7&tbnid=8bHZ0223yKcJ:&tbnh=51&tbnw=102&hl=en&start=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbruce%252Blevine%26start%3D120%26svnu m%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN)
"Somebody just called me stupid, then said something about shaving a cat? I don't get it. Anyway, what I meant to say was Thome will be dealt to the Cubs for Neifi Perez and play SS. By the way, who is this guy next to me?"

tebman
11-22-2005, 11:35 AM
Aha! Levine says the Phillies are asking for Contreras and McCarthy, not that a deal is done.

"Step right up, ladies and gentlemen! You want rumors, I've got rumors!"

SOecks
11-22-2005, 11:37 AM
Exactly. And he said that he didn't feel the deal was likely to happen in that manner (Rowand and McCarthy/Contreras) but that's what Philadelphia ASKED for. Either way, they're in talks. I'm sure the Sox won't give up that much if the deal does go through.

MadetoOrta
11-22-2005, 11:37 AM
This is ridiculous. As I posted the other day, why after showing the world how to win a championship with inredible pitching, defense and speed are we going to revert back to being a softball team. Contreras? He could win 24 games next year. He's been virtually unhittable since mid-July. McCarthy? Cheapest 15 game winner in the majors next year. Please tell me this isn't true. Thome? He's got major back problems and how convenient that he goes into a power slump this year? Is he a roid ranger? Who knows. This is ridiculously one-sided. Terrible.:angry: :angry: :angry: PS: I've got my World Series win in my lifetime but c'mon KW. Be real.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 11:37 AM
He hates his wife and kids? Would be an interesting development...

Referring to extended family. Wife & kids can move to LA pretty easily, and might actually enjoy it there.

Black Sox
11-22-2005, 11:38 AM
He hates his wife and kids? Would be an interesting development...

haha...

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 11:38 AM
WHO? The guy who hits 40+ HR's and takes 100+ walks every year he's been healthy? The guy coming off Tommy John surgery who would be a DH?

Interesting... never heard those types of players referred to as "bench warmers" before...

I ask you this:

*** is the point of trading your two biggest pieces of trade bait for one giant, expensive, aging, one dimensional question mark??? Don't you especially think we could get something better than that?

I have nothing against Thome and would love to have him here, but I'd also like to have a contingency plan or at least quite a bit of payroll flexibility at midseason if something happens and he goes down. Lets be realistic here. We are not the Yankees. If Thome was coming to us in an incentive based deal or at a much smaller price, then this would be a typical KW move. But it's not. IMO we need to get as much as a sure thing as we can, because there is a gaping hole in our middle of the order for a big LH bat. I would be totally against this move.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 11:39 AM
Aha! Levine says the Phillies are asking for Contreras and McCarthy, not that a deal is done.

I think most reasonable people assumed that was the source of the names and whatnot. The Sox would have been out of their minds to propose that deal and Philly would have been looking for papers to sign had it been...

Time for the Sox to counter-offer and as an earlier poster said, hold their feet to the coals here. Limited market for said player + high salary + old and coming off injury = much different value than Philly started at.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 11:39 AM
Levine Recap: Doesn't see the Sox parting with one of their starters for Thome, especialyl not McCarthy. Phils have 0 interest in El Duque. He mentioned prospects like Chris Young & Jerry Owens as possibilities.

He also said that if you want Pierre, it'll cost you a young, cheap starter like McCarthy. Also that Delgado might be available and would come cheaper than Pierre because of the contract.

TDog
11-22-2005, 11:40 AM
Aha! Levine says the Phillies are asking for Contreras and McCarthy, not that a deal is done.

"Step right up, ladies and gentlemen! You want rumors, I've got rumors!"


The Sox are in a much better position now than when they wanted to deal but refused to pull the trigger on trading their two future aces, Baldwin and Ruffcorn, because they didn't want to jeopardize their future.

The Sox aren't the team in the desperate position any more.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 11:42 AM
I have nothing against Thome and would love to have him here, but I'd also like to have a contingency plan or at least quite a bit of payroll flexibility at midseason if something happens and he goes down. Lets be realistic here. We are not the Yankees. If Thome was coming to us in an incentive based deal or at a much smaller price, then this would be a typical KW move. But it's not. IMO we need to get as much as a sure thing as we can, because there is a gaping hole in our middle of the order for a big LH bat. I would be totally against this move.

IMO their desired contingency is Frank Thomas. Whether they can come to agreement with Frank given 2 guys blocking regular PT for him is another question. Phils initial offer was apparently Thome at $8-9M/yr for Rowand+JC/McCarthy. Which makes it not that unlikely that a deal for Thome at $10M for Rowand+prospects deal is achievable.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 11:43 AM
Referring to extended family. Wife & kids can move to LA pretty easily, and might actually enjoy it there.


:rolleyes: LOL! Thome didn't say he preferred to stay in the midwest because of extended family. It's where the man is raising his kids and has his home in Ohio. These players don't usually drag their wives and kids around the country with thim, especially not for the last 3-4 years of their careers.

These are just outlandish statements we're making now. Thome is a midwestern guy, who is raising his kids in the midwest. THEY AIN'T MOVIN TO LA FOR 3-4 YEARS...

Is it impossible? No. I'd give it less than a 1% chance of happening that Thome ends up on the West Coast.

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 11:45 AM
He also said that if you want Pierre, it'll cost you a young, cheap starter like McCarthy. Also that Delgado might be available and would come cheaper than Pierre because of the contract.

Screw Pierre then, I'm jumping on the 'sign Furcal' bandwagon. I normally wouldn't think that after Pierre's down year he'd be worth as much as that, but in this market, the Marlins may get something similar.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 11:46 AM
Screw Pierre then, I'm jumping on the 'sign Furcal' bandwagon. I normally wouldn't think that after Pierre's down year he'd be worth as much as that, but in this market, the Marlins may get something similar.

Unless "Young, cheap starter" = Sean Tracey, LOL!

Unregistered
11-22-2005, 11:47 AM
Delgado might be available and would come cheaper than Pierre because of the contract.
Awesome. Let's get Delgado and end this Thome nonsense.

AZChiSoxFan
11-22-2005, 11:48 AM
I am surprised some of you didn't say we should give Geoff Blum a starting role this year because he hit one huge HR in the Series.

Well, now that you mention it.....Oh wait, he already went to SD? Darn!!!

Palehose13
11-22-2005, 11:49 AM
KW has earned my trust. He'll do what needs to be done.

I can't believe a rumor from Brude Levine had 5 pages in the clubhouse. This thread is where it belongs now.

AZChiSoxFan
11-22-2005, 11:51 AM
I was just speaking with someone in the Sox organiaztion-- I know you are happy for me! This trade is absolute rubbish. Bruce is full of it!!

Are you in an airport baggage claim area?

JRIG
11-22-2005, 11:52 AM
KW has earned my trust. He'll do what needs to be done.

I can't believe a rumor from Brude Levine had 5 pages in the clubhouse. This thread is where it belongs now.

I was waiting for his new breaking news before moving it. Beat me to it my 30 seconds!

voodoochile
11-22-2005, 11:53 AM
Are you in an airport baggage claim area?

Not sure the night janitor qualifies as a source anyway...:wink:

Jerko
11-22-2005, 11:53 AM
Every year on April Fool's day, George "Jag" Offman makes up some stupid-ass April fool's, trade rumor and broadcasts it in his update as if it were fact. Levine's rumors have the same merit IMO.

Palehose13
11-22-2005, 11:56 AM
I was waiting for his new breaking news before moving it. Beat me to it my 30 seconds!

LOL...I thought it was odd that the poster who originally posted this in this forum apologized and said that he'd post in the clubhouse.

People, Bruce Levine is a putz. Sox and Philly may be talking. I'm willing to be that KW is talking to quite a few clubs.

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 11:57 AM
IMO their desired contingency is Frank Thomas. Whether they can come to agreement with Frank given 2 guys blocking regular PT for him is another question. Phils initial offer was apparently Thome at $8-9M/yr for Rowand+JC/McCarthy. Which makes it not that unlikely that a deal for Thome at $10M for Rowand+prospects deal is achievable.

Don't you see? Our contingency plan would need a contingency plan! We had to have Everett last year because of Thomas' uncertainty, and taking into account the combined salaries of both players, it would have been cheaper to have an impact player at that position who could provide more than both together.

Here's the way I see it:

We just came off our first WS championship since 1917. We have five solid starters and some good looking arms in the minors of which one or two may pan out in the next couple of years. We have good looking young OF talent in the high minors as well as a possible starter this year. We have a terrific mix of veteran and young pitchers in our bullpen as well. The future looks pretty bright.

On top of that, we have a manager who loves the city and who is attracting attention from players and media alike. He wants to play a game based around pitching, defense, and speed, and he wants players who he can at least count on to be somewhat healthy.

All of that considered, two names that absolutely do not fit into the picture that Ozzie wants to paint are Thome and Thomas. Leave them be. I love Frank as much as the next guy, but let him go elsewhere. We don't have to stay in that 'win now' mentality anymore. Let's forget all the ideas about slow, aging, one dimensional players with health risks and start building a dynasty.

voodoochile
11-22-2005, 12:02 PM
Don't you see? Our contingency plan would need a contingency plan! We had to have Everett last year because of Thomas' uncertainty, and taking into account the combined salaries of both players, it would have been cheaper to have an impact player at that position who could provide more than both together.

Here's the way I see it:

We just came off our first WS championship since 1917. We have five solid starters and some good looking arms in the minors of which one or two may pan out in the next couple of years. We have good looking young talent in the high minors as well as a possible starter this year. We have a terrific mix of veteran and young pitchers in our bullpen as well. The future looks pretty bright.

On top of that, we have a manager who loves the city and who is attracting attention from players and media alike. He wants to play a game based around pitching, defense, and speed, and he wants players who he can at least count on to be somewhat healthy.

All of that considered, two names that absolutely do not fit into the picture that Ozzie wants to paint are Thome and Thomas. Leave them be. I love Frank as much as the next guy, but let him go elsewhere. We don't have to stay in that 'win now' mentality anymore. Let's forget all the ideas about slow, aging, one dimensional players with health risks and start building a dynasty.

Isn't the first step in a dynasty winning two in a row?

Nothing will change everything you mentioned and the Sox are a couple of middle of the order bats from being pennant favorites entering next season.

Are Thome and/or Thomas the answer? No one can know that until the middle of next summer. Still, if they can land Thome and then resign PK, they are in pretty good shape and it won't have cost them a ton of those future prospects you are talking about. I would prefer not to trade any of the current rotation save El Duque, but the Phillies don't want El Duque, so that's not going to happen. KW isn't going to dismantle a top of the league rotation, so don't panic...

Randar68
11-22-2005, 12:05 PM
All of that considered, two names that absolutely do not fit into the picture that Ozzie wants to paint are Thome and Thomas. Leave them be. I love Frank as much as the next guy, but let him go elsewhere. We don't have to stay in that 'win now' mentality anymore. Let's forget all the ideas about slow, aging, one dimensional players with health risks and start building a dynasty.

3 and 4 hitters are hard enough to find, but now you're saying we wouldn't be interested in 3/4 hitters unless they were speedy defensive wizards, too? GOOD LUCK!

Guess the only option is to trade for both Delgado and Helton... unless we sign Giles...

mdep524
11-22-2005, 12:06 PM
One other point: Trading Contreras and trading Contreras for Jim Thome are two different questions.

Whether or not you think the Sox should consider trading Contreras (age, sell high, fluke, salary, impending free agency), there is no way on God's green earth the Sox should even think of trading Contreras for Thome, considering their relative values. If the Sox decide to part with Contreras, it would have to be for a much bigger haul against stiffer competition. Something like Delgado and Pierre, Helton or Ichiro come to mind...

balke
11-22-2005, 12:09 PM
They can have Contreras and Rowand, but they better eat half of Thome's deal and include Ryan Madson. :cool: Maybe that's a little much, but that's what I am hoping for if this deal happens.

FYI, Bruce Levine is supposed to be on Carmen and Silvy to discuss this further.

Am I the only one that saw Thome play last season? The guy was f'n HORRIBLE. And we're going to give up the pitcher who is finally in the form he's supposed to have been all along? The Cuban fireballer who pulled his head out of his crack and pitched us to a championship? Our playoffs ace who absolutely shut down the opposition? No thanks. We better be getting Utley, Rollins, and Wagner in return if Jose is in the deal.

I'd rather see us go into the season with Anderson at DH if it comes down to a deal like this. We have a real chance at 2 in a row with a staff like Buehrle Contreras, Garcia, Garland, Mccarthy/El Duque.

caulfield12
11-22-2005, 12:10 PM
Bruce Levine broke in on ESPN Radio at 7:41AM this morning that Sox and Phils are close to finalizing Thome trade. Sox send Aaron Rowand and either Contreras or McCarthy. Phils want the Sox to pick up 2/3 of $43M remaining (approx $29M over 3 years).

He also said that by saying goodbye to Thomas,Everett and perhaps Contreras, they would be willing to still spend on Konerko.

Obviously, the hard to swallow part of this is losing Contreras.

However, the odds are, at his age, weīre not going to sign him to a 3 year, $36 million dollar contract after the 2006 season. If KW knows he canīt keep Contreras but can keep Garland long-term, it is logical. But you cannot lose both after 2006, then potentially Buehrle and Garcia after 2007.

$29 million is a huge chunk of change. Thatīs why we would have to give up the talent of Contreras or potential talent and affordability for six years of McCarthy.

Weīd be paying Thome something like $4.7 million per season and have money still left over by clearing Rowand and Contreras to get another 3-4 hitter.

Of course, the big if here is Thomeīs health. But that $4.7 million we would be paying Thome isnīt much more than weīre paying Thomas NOT to play.

If I were KW, I would be agonizing back and forth, but I would definitely hold onto Brandon over Contreras, because we would have a potential ace pitcher for at least six years that would be affordable to the Sox and allow us to add talent around the pitching.

Contreras could be the ace of the Phillies, but the fact is that KW is always looking long-term while trying to field a competitive team each season while simultaneously tweaking in mid-July almost every year to try to put the final pieces in place.

Losing Rowand is not a huge loss...we have plenty of talent and depth that could erase that loss, and it would be financially more prudent even.

Dan Mega
11-22-2005, 12:11 PM
*** is the point of trading your two biggest pieces of trade bait for one giant, expensive, aging, one dimensional question mark???


I thought the Sox dumped Jose Valentin already, why would they trade for him?

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 12:13 PM
Don't you see? Our contingency plan would need a contingency plan! We had to have Everett last year because of Thomas' uncertainty, and taking into account the combined salaries of both players, it would have been cheaper to have an impact player at that position who could provide more than both together.

Here's the way I see it:

We just came off our first WS championship since 1917. We have five solid starters and some good looking arms in the minors of which one or two may pan out in the next couple of years. We have good looking young OF talent in the high minors as well as a possible starter this year. We have a terrific mix of veteran and young pitchers in our bullpen as well. The future looks pretty bright.

On top of that, we have a manager who loves the city and who is attracting attention from players and media alike. He wants to play a game based around pitching, defense, and speed, and he wants players who he can at least count on to be somewhat healthy.

All of that considered, two names that absolutely do not fit into the picture that Ozzie wants to paint are Thome and Thomas. Leave them be. I love Frank as much as the next guy, but let him go elsewhere. We don't have to stay in that 'win now' mentality anymore. Let's forget all the ideas about slow, aging, one dimensional players with health risks and start building a dynasty.

:?:

Just because you love pitching, speed, and D doesn't mean you value power at zero. Potential 40Hr guys don't grow on trees, and they usually don't come with outstanding D. In any case, I believe Thome is capable of winning a gold glove at the position we'll play him at - DH!

Thomas is an injury risk. Thome is much less of one, his last injury being a torn elbow tendon, something that's not really a recurring thing or indicative of a guy "breaking down". Regardless, having 2 of them is pretty solid insurance, and at least as good as the 2005 Sox since Carl Everett hasn't exactly been the picture of health himself.

Besides - you got a better idea? Outside of Delgado or the albatross that is Todd Helton, who would you rather have as DH?

The Dynasty will be based on Buehrle-Garcia-Garland-Contreras-McCarthy-Cotts-Jenks. You need to put up enough offense to make that viable, which doesn't mean 9 slap hitters.

balke
11-22-2005, 12:19 PM
:?:

Just because you love pitching, speed, and D doesn't mean you value power at zero. Potential 40Hr guys don't grow on trees, and they usually don't come with outstanding D. In any case, I believe Thome is capable of winning a gold glove at the position we'll play him at - DH!

Thomas is an injury risk. Thome is much less of one, his last injury being a torn elbow tendon, something that's not really a recurring thing or indicative of a guy "breaking down". Regardless, having 2 of them is pretty solid insurance, and at least as good as the 2005 Sox since Carl Everett hasn't exactly been the picture of health himself.

Besides - you got a better idea? Outside of Delgado or the albatross that is Todd Helton, who would you rather have as DH?

The Dynasty will be based on Buehrle-Garcia-Garland-Contreras-McCarthy-Cotts-Jenks. You need to put up enough offense to make that viable, which doesn't mean 9 slap hitters.

Jim Thome is an injury risk. Elbow Tendinitis. You need the elbow to produce power right? He's 35! Why would we trade for this loser? I think its much more likely we'd be looking at Abreu than Thome if we are talking to the Phillies. IF. I'd love it if we were talking about Utley. 1Bman/2Bman, power, good #2 hitter.

Also, this team was 3rd in HR's last season. Why do we need more Hr's? We should be trading for good young players if we are going to give up Jose. He's going to keep pitching like he did in the second half. He was supposed to be pitching like that all along.

antitwins13
11-22-2005, 12:20 PM
A big NO to Kenny Rogers.


Why not? Just cuz his agent is Boras?

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 12:20 PM
Isn't the first step in a dynasty winning two in a row?


Not necessarily. A dynasty is just an organization who gets deep into the playoffs consistently and wins a couple World Championships over the span of a few years. Some dynasties are greater than others, but we've never had any kind of dynasty on the South Side.

While guys like Thome and Thomas could be 95% healthy next year and combine for 80 HR's, 280 RBIs and a .320 batting average in the 3-4 spot, they could also sit on the shelf while the Sox blow the division to the Tribe in September.

I've never ever been happier with this organization since Ozzie was hired and the team took a whole new direction, and I've never been more proud to wear the black and white. But I sense that while both Ozzie and KW are ecstatic with the results so far, they are still not yet happy with the team as a whole and believe they could improve significantly from last year. At least I hope they think that way. I want to see them continue to take that route that they started on in 2004 and continue to focus on defense, speed, and sign or tade for younger players with less physical risks. I just think that aging, lumbering slugger middle of the order stuff should be passe.

caulfield12
11-22-2005, 12:21 PM
One other point: Trading Contreras and trading Contreras for Jim Thome are two different questions.

Whether or not you think the Sox should consider trading Contreras (age, sell high, fluke, salary, impending free agency), there is no way on God's green earth the Sox should even think of trading Contreras for Thome, considering their relative values. If the Sox decide to part with Contreras, it would have to be for a much bigger haul against stiffer competition. Something like Delgado and Pierre, Helton or Ichiro come to mind...

If the Phillies were only paying $10-20 million, I would tend to agree with you.

$29 million, however, is a huge chunk of change. That kind of exchange always warrants some talent, and itīs going to be more than El Duque or Marte. We would end up paying Thome only $4.7 million per season.

Yes, the Phillies have almost no choice but to trade him...but the White Sox would actually like to clear Rowand off the roster for two years (saving another $8-9 million) so they can play Anderson, Young or get a one year fix like Pierre for that position, then hand it over to the kids.

This deal would still allow the Sox to sign Konerko and give them huge potential with Thomas and-or Thome (probably not both) as DH. If PK doesnīt re-up, they still have that $10-12 million to use on a Giles, Delgado, Sheffield, etc., caliber of hitter.

Contreras is very unlikely to be signed next offseason. KW is making a gamble here that McCarthy will be the future ace...and that this is the most talent he could get for Contreras...for instance, if the White Sox fell out of contention in June and KW tried to deal him, could they get even more from a contending club? Maybe...but what if Jose returns to first half form, when many Sox fans thought we would be lucky to dump his contract on someone?

balke
11-22-2005, 12:22 PM
Hey guys, what about Griffey?

fquaye149
11-22-2005, 12:26 PM
I don't know how many consider it a fluke. But Contreras is 33 and has pitched one good half of baseball. He might have finally figured it out and be on his way to being a consistent good pitcher. Or he might revert to old habits and never develop that consistency. No one really knows either way, but there's a case to be made both ways.

Ok - here's the problem with your logic. Contreras has had 3 years in the majors and one really good half. He's also had a long career in Cuba dominating. There were a lot of reasons for his lack of success in the majors up till this year - pitching in NY, a lousy pitching coach in Stottlemyre, the distraction of his family being stuck in another country...I could go on and on.

The most important factor however, might be that he was tipping pitches and being afraid of his fastball.

That all appears to have been addressed by Coop - something evidenced by the fact that each progressive half-season with the Sox (starting midseason 2004) Contreras has gotten better and better and better.

This is a guy who many say has among the best stuff in baseball and who was a huge target of the two largest market teams as a free agent. There was a reason for this - the guy has nasty stuff. Most of the problems he has had (pitching in NY, having a lousy pitching coach, being away from his family, adjustment to non-spanish language situation, tipping pitches, lack of confidence) seem to be non-factors pitching in Chicago.

This, along with the hometown overvaluing, are why people are supremely confident in Contreras. It's not JUST the hometown overvaluing - there's every reason to think he will continue whereas there's not as much evidence saying he will revert.

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 12:29 PM
:?:

Just because you love pitching, speed, and D doesn't mean you value power at zero. Potential 40Hr guys don't grow on trees, and they usually don't come with outstanding D. In any case, I believe Thome is capable of winning a gold glove at the position we'll play him at - DH!

Thomas is an injury risk. Thome is much less of one, his last injury being a torn elbow tendon, something that's not really a recurring thing or indicative of a guy "breaking down". Regardless, having 2 of them is pretty solid insurance, and at least as good as the 2005 Sox since Carl Everett hasn't exactly been the picture of health himself.

Besides - you got a better idea? Outside of Delgado or the albatross that is Todd Helton, who would you rather have as DH?

The Dynasty will be based on Buehrle-Garcia-Garland-Contreras-McCarthy-Cotts-Jenks. You need to put up enough offense to make that viable, which doesn't mean 9 slap hitters.

Better idea??? Like Thome is the only viable option? There are tons of better ideas that I'm sure management has had. I can't say who else would be available for what price because I'm not a GM, but I can tell you there are many other players who would be better fits than Thome. Anyone is expendable for the right price, and I would seriously doubt the Sox make any sort of big move like that for awhile anyway.

BTW, obvioiusly you can't fill a lineup full of slap hitters because you'd have a quite a difficult time trying to find a slap hitting 1B or C for instance. Yes you need power, but get younger then. If the Phils are asking for Rowand and one of our top starters and they aren't giving us Thome for free with a big kiss and a bow around his neck, then I think we are overpaying a bit all things considered. And if we're going to overpay for a bat, overpay for Abreu, Texiera, Andruw Jones, Helton, Delgado, etc. At least overpay for something that you know will probably be around for a while.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 12:30 PM
Jim Thome is an injury risk. Elbow Tendinitis. You need the elbow to produce power right? He's 35! Why would we trade for this loser? I think its much more likely we'd be looking at Abreu than Thome if we are talking to the Phillies. IF. I'd love it if we were talking about Utley. 1Bman/2Bman, power, good #2 hitter.

Also, this team was 3rd in HR's last season. Why do we need more Hr's? We should be trading for good young players if we are going to give up Jose. He's going to keep pitching like he did in the second half. He was supposed to be pitching like that all along.

Tendinitis is different from a torn tendon. He had Tommy John surgery, which pitchers come back healthy from nowadays with almost 100% effectiveness. You telling me it's tougher on an elbow to hit HRs than to pitch?

No one's saying give up Jose for him, unless it's part of a set of dominos that KW's got where you get enough cash back to offset the loss of Jose via other moves.

As for being 3d in HRs last season - 1)you always want to improve, and b)Thome isn't about just HRs, he's a damn good all-around hitter.

MUsoxfan
11-22-2005, 12:31 PM
I think its much more likely we'd be looking at Abreu than Thome if we are talking to the Phillies. IF. I'd love it if we were talking about Utley. 1Bman/2Bman, power, good #2 hitter.



You're living in the land of Oz. If the Phillies are desperately looking to unload Thome and they want both Contreras and McCarthy, then what do you suspect they would want for an Abreu or an Utley? :rolleyes:

balke
11-22-2005, 12:31 PM
Better idea??? Like Thome is the only viable option? There are tons of better ideas that I'm sure management has had. I can't say who else would be available for what price because I'm not a GM, but I can tell you there are many other players who would be better fits than Thome. Anyone is expendable for the right price, and I would seriously doubt the Sox make any sort of big move like that for awhile anyway.

BTW, obvioiusly you can't fill a lineup full of slap hitters because you'd have a quite a difficult time trying to find a slap hitting 1B or C for instance. Yes you need power, but get younger then. If the Phils are asking for Rowand and one of our top starters and they aren't giving us Thome for free with a big kiss and a bow around his neck, then I think we are overpaying a bit all things considered. And if we're going to overpay for a bat, overpay for Abreu, Texiera, Andruw Jones, Helton, Delgado, etc. At least overpay for something that you know will probably be around for a while.

This is a good point. Contreras can bring you so much more than Thome, and so much younge. Really, we could name our price with the Rangers if we traded them any pitcher on our roster with a young Rowand. Young, Teixera, Blalock, whoever. That or we could keep them, and pay for Konerko and play our minor league prospects, which I think is the most likely thing to happen.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 12:32 PM
One other point: Trading Contreras and trading Contreras for Jim Thome are two different questions.

Whether or not you think the Sox should consider trading Contreras (age, sell high, fluke, salary, impending free agency), there is no way on God's green earth the Sox should even think of trading Contreras for Thome, considering their relative values. If the Sox decide to part with Contreras, it would have to be for a much bigger haul against stiffer competition. Something like Delgado and Pierre, Helton or Ichiro come to mind...

I agree with this. Especially considering Thome's injury history and the value of top-of-the-rotation starters.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 12:32 PM
Better idea??? Like Thome is the only viable option? There are tons of better ideas that I'm sure management has had. I can't say who else would be available for what price because I'm not a GM, but I can tell you there are many other players who would be better fits than Thome. Anyone is expendable for the right price, and I would seriously doubt the Sox make any sort of big move like that for awhile anyway.

BTW, obvioiusly you can't fill a lineup full of slap hitters because you'd have a quite a difficult time trying to find a slap hitting 1B or C for instance. Yes you need power, but get younger then. If the Phils are asking for Rowand and one of our top starters and they aren't giving us Thome for free with a big kiss and a bow around his neck, then I think we are overpaying a bit all things considered. And if we're going to overpay for a bat, overpay for Abreu, Texiera, Andruw Jones, Helton, Delgado, etc. At least overpay for something that you know will probably be around for a while.

Hitters of Thome's caliber don't grow on trees. There aren't many available, and they all have warts or they'd be kept by their current teams! No one's saying part with Jose, unless you're selectively reading the posts. But trading for Thome without weakening the pitching staff and using Rowand as the bait is a great move.

Paulwny
11-22-2005, 12:36 PM
I'm pretty sure that Contreras' original contract with NY had a no tade clause. He waived the clause to be traded to the sox and will also have to waive the clause to be traded to the phils.

I think this could be a decent trade, Contreras says he's 33 but who knows.

balke
11-22-2005, 12:36 PM
As for being 3d in HRs last season - 1)you always want to improve, and b)Thome isn't about just HRs, he's a damn good all-around hitter.

He hit .207 last year with 7 HR's. He's 35 and slow. He's statistically the same guy as Konerko, just older. If I'm Kenny I'm finding someone better/faster/younger for that price.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 12:37 PM
He hit .207 last year with 7 HR's. He's 35 and slow. He's statistically the same guy as Konerko, just older. If I'm Kenny I'm finding someone better/faster/younger for that price.

And he had a bad back when he did so, just months after finishing a year with 42 HR's, 100+ RBI and 100+ walks with a mid-.900's OPS.

He was battling that sore back when the elbow problem popped up.

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 12:41 PM
Hitters of Thome's caliber don't grow on trees. There aren't many available, and they all have warts or they'd be kept by their current teams! No one's saying part with Jose, unless you're selectively reading the posts. But trading for Thome without weakening the pitching staff and using Rowand as the bait is a great move.

I'm not saying we shouldn't trade Jose or any other starter. I'd like to keep Jose more than anyone else on the staff, but I would still deal a starter for a big bat. I just don't think Thome is the answer. And yes, Thome is a great hitter and no, he is not a plant. But I did just name several others players who are also great hitters and who are also not plants, and I think it is important that each of the players that I mentioned either are better offensive players than Thome, less of an injury risk than Thome, better defensively than Thome, and/or provide more versatility to the team. I trust in KW to trade whatever pitcher he thinks he should trade, but I'd rather it be for someone not name Thome.

nodiggity59
11-22-2005, 12:43 PM
If I'm Kenny, I offer to take up to $30mil of the deal along w/ Rowand and a nice pitching prospect (Gio, Broadway). That really should be enough given the fact that there's nowhere else for Thome to go without the Phils taking a lot more salary. Plus, there's the little matter of his no trade clause.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 12:45 PM
He hit .207 last year with 7 HR's. He's 35 and slow. He's statistically the same guy as Konerko, just older. If I'm Kenny I'm finding someone better/faster/younger for that price.

FOR THE LAST TIME: NO ONE'S ADVOCATING TRADING ROWAND+CONTRERAS FOR THOME!!!!

It's accepted that that's the Phillies opening request, not something the Sox are likely to meet.

Trading Rowand+Prospects for Thome+cash is what's a possibility. Thome in the past 10 years has put up 38-40-30-33-37-49-52-47-42-7HRs, he has a career BA of .281 and a career OBP of .408!!! Last year he struggled through a torn elbow tendon until getting the TJ surgery - you think that might have impacted his #s just a bit? Given that TJ has a near-100% recovery rate, he's a lot more likely to hit 40 in '06 than 7. Especially in USCF. But he's not injury-prone, he just had one significant injury.

I'd rather trade Rowand+prospects for Mark Teixeira.....but it aint' happening. Jim Thome is a realistic target for a package like that with enough cash to reduce his salary to $8-10M/yr on a 3-yr deal. Swapping out Everett for Thome and plugging in Anderson for Rowand is a huge net positive. And if you add in retaining Thomas (which is a ?), you have a pretty solid insurance policy if Thome gets hurt.

TheOldRoman
11-22-2005, 12:45 PM
I thought the Sox dumped Jose Valentin already, why would they trade for him?
Umm, would that dimension be strikeouts?

SoxSpeed22
11-22-2005, 12:47 PM
We all knew this was gonna happen and I built a bomb-shelter just in case.
http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/USPics8/58360.jpg

Randar68
11-22-2005, 12:47 PM
Umm, would that dimension be strikeouts?

I thought it was errors... silly me.

TheOldRoman
11-22-2005, 12:48 PM
Delgado > Helton > Thome >>>>>> Huff.
I agree on Huff, but I think you have Helton and Delgado mixed up, and you probably forgot another > or two. Helton is the best of those four. He has Delgado's power, but hits for a much higher average while playing gold glove defense. Of course, his salary is so high that it is extremely unlikely. I would trade Contreras and Rowand for Helton in a second. For Thome - no chance in hell.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 12:49 PM
I'm not saying we shouldn't trade Jose or any other starter. I'd like to keep Jose more than anyone else on the staff, but I would still deal a starter for a big bat. I just don't think Thome is the answer. And yes, Thome is a great hitter and no, he is not a plant. But I did just name several others players who are also great hitters and who are also not plants, and I think it is important that each of the players that I mentioned either are better offensive players than Thome, less of an injury risk than Thome, better defensively than Thome, and/or provide more versatility to the team. I trust in KW to trade whatever pitcher he thinks he should trade, but I'd rather it be for someone not name Thome.

1) We're most likely looking for a DH, so defense doesn't matter.
2) There are very very few guys capable of hitting 40HR with a .400OBP. Jim Thome is one of them
3) The other guys will either come a)much more expensive in trade or b)have much larger/longer contracts, with the possible exception of Delgado
4) Thome is not an injury risk ala Frank. He's had 1 injury that impacted his performance significantly in the last 10. Prior to last year, he had 4 years of 40+HR / 100+RBI / ~.280BA / ~.410OBP. 1 injury that was treated with a relatively safe, common surgery doesn't make him a giant injury risk.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 12:54 PM
I agree on Huff, but I think you have Helton and Delgado mixed up, and you probably forgot another > or two. Helton is the best of those four. He has Delgado's power, but hits for a much higher average while playing gold glove defense. Of course, his salary is so high that it is extremely unlikely. I would trade Contreras and Rowand for Helton in a second. For Thome - no chance in hell.

I think Helton is a better natural hitter, but he does not have Delgado's power, IMO, especially considering park factors.

IMO, Delgado would project to around 40-45 HR's in USCF. Helton to somewhere around 35, IMO.

Helton plays better defense and is a more multi-dimensional player than Delgado, but Delgado is a more prototypical 1st baseman, IMO.

TheOldRoman
11-22-2005, 12:54 PM
3 and 4 hitters are hard enough to find, but now you're saying we wouldn't be interested in 3/4 hitters unless they were speedy defensive wizards, too? GOOD LUCK!

Guess the only option is to trade for both Delgado and Helton... unless we sign Giles...
:?:
:tealpolice:
"Sir, are you aware you were going teal in a deep pink zone?"

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 12:55 PM
FOR THE LAST TIME: NO ONE'S ADVOCATING TRADING ROWAND+CONTRERAS FOR THOME!!!!

It's accepted that that's the Phillies opening request, not something the Sox are likely to meet.

I'm not so sure about that. Sure, that's their starting point. But how exactly do you negotiate down from Contreras/McCarthy? Gio? Tracey? Would this be enough? I kind of wish we were like the Red Sox in that they have Bronson Arroyo sitting in the bullpen on the phone taking pledges for PBS, but we don't really have anything in between the level of Contreras and the level of Gio unless you dip into the bullpen. If Philly wants ML talent, then all we have to negotiate down to is maybe Hermanson? I don't know, but I just hope whatever happens helps us in the long run.

TheOldRoman
11-22-2005, 12:56 PM
I thought it was errors... silly me.
OK, he is a two dimensional player. Impressive.
I hear he is available. Kenny should get on the phone.

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 01:04 PM
1) We're most likely looking for a DH, so defense doesn't matter.
2) There are very very few guys capable of hitting 40HR with a .400OBP. Jim Thome is one of them
3) The other guys will either come a)much more expensive in trade or b)have much larger/longer contracts, with the possible exception of Delgado
4) Thome is not an injury risk ala Frank. He's had 1 injury that impacted his performance significantly in the last 10. Prior to last year, he had 4 years of 40+HR / 100+RBI / ~.280BA / ~.410OBP. 1 injury that was treated with a relatively safe, common surgery doesn't make him a giant injury risk.

I have no idea what this team is looking for. Yesterday we want Pierre, today we want Thome. ***? Something must have changed, maybe the Sox gave up on Pierre? Either way, if the Sox ended up with both of these guys it would either mean a downgrade at 1B or CF, or both, and some uncertainties to go along with it.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 01:07 PM
I have no idea what this team is looking for.

Isn't hot stove great? LOL!

daveeym
11-22-2005, 01:14 PM
I have no idea what this team is looking for. Yesterday we want Pierre, today we want Thome. ***? Something must have changed, maybe the Sox gave up on Pierre? Either way, if the Sox ended up with both of these guys it would either mean a downgrade at 1B or CF, or both, and some uncertainties to go along with it. Heh? It's been quite clear that this team would like another speedster to put in the 2 hole and a masher. Has a one move per team rule been introduced?

Baby Fisk
11-22-2005, 01:15 PM
Does the Passionate Shower award come for 200 or 300 replies? I can't find the tag. It's vital to this thread!

Seriously tho, where else could Thome go?

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 01:30 PM
Heh? It's been quite clear that this team would like another speedster to put in the 2 hole and a masher. Has a one move per team rule been introduced?

No, see that was yesterday. That's what I'm saying. We used to want another leadoff hitter to DH so we have respectable OF defense, but today we want a power bat to DH and hit in the 3/4 spot. You have to stay with the trends, dude, that idea is just not cool anymore.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 01:31 PM
No, see that was yesterday. That's what I'm saying. We used to want another leadoff hitter to DH so we have respectable OF defense, but today we want a power bat to DH and hit in the 3/4 spot. You have to stay with the trends, dude, that idea is just not cool anymore.

I must have missed that. Who was the leadoff hitter that was going to DH? Pierre was going to become our CF'er, so there must have been some other move you're referring to... :?:

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 01:38 PM
I must have missed that. Who was the leadoff hitter that was going to DH? Pierre was going to become our CF'er, so there must have been some other move you're referring to... :?:

No, no, no. It was never my understanding that Pierre was going to be the CF or else I would have firmly opposed. Pierre was supposed to allow Anderson to move to CF and take over in LF so Pods could DH. Maybe I got a different memo, but mine had us with an arm in CF.

HebrewHammer
11-22-2005, 01:41 PM
Didn't we just win a World Series with Rowand and Contreras? Why are we so eager to replace them?

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 01:42 PM
Didn't we just win a World Series with Rowand and Contreras? Why are we so eager to replace them?

To win another one.

sullythered
11-22-2005, 01:44 PM
Crap, crap, crap. We won the WORLD SERIES on pitching. We don't need a thumper. Know how I know that? We didn't need one last year. I don't want to do anything except resign Pauly, and pick up a reasonably priced DH. We don't need anything else. This is pure fact. It cannot be argued, because it was proven last season. Why mess with the best team in the Majors?

daveeym
11-22-2005, 01:48 PM
Crap, crap, crap. We won the WORLD SERIES on pitching. We don't need a thumper. Know how I know that? We didn't need one last year. I don't want to do anything except resign Pauly, and pick up a reasonably priced DH. We don't need anything else. This is pure fact. It cannot be argued, because it was proven last season. Why mess with the best team in the Majors? It can be argued that you're an i...oh I'll be nice, as said by many before me, do you think every other team is standing pat and not getting better????? ****, let's dig up the 1917 team, they won it too.

nodiggity59
11-22-2005, 01:48 PM
Any deal that includes BMac or Contreras more than likely hurts us more than helps us for 06. Dealing Jose may be smart in the long term but in terms of repeating, a team built on pitching and defense cannot afford to trade away a potential ace.

And trading one of those guys for Thome, who is coming off and injury and has a small market because of his price tag, would be getting screwed over.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 01:48 PM
No, no, no. It was never my understanding that Pierre was going to be the CF or else I would have firmly opposed. Pierre was supposed to allow Anderson to move to CF and take over in LF so Pods could DH. Maybe I got a different memo, but mine had us with an arm in CF.

That is not what was going to happen. It was going to be Pods LF, Pierre CF. Anderson may have been the 4th OF'er, but that is an even worse move than sending him back to Charlotte. You don't DH speed, otherwise we would have DH'd Pods much of this year.

sullythered
11-22-2005, 01:52 PM
It can be argued that you're an i...oh I'll be nice, as said by many before me, do you think every other team is standing pat and not getting better????? ****, let's dig up the 1917 team, they won it too.

Through the inference it can be argued that you're a j... Standing pat is not necessarily what I'm talking about. We won with awesome pitching. If we lose some of that to add an aging thumper, which we proved we could win without, we'd be taking a step backward.

akingamongstmen
11-22-2005, 01:52 PM
This trade is crap. Why would you trade for 35 year old Thome and have to take on 30 mil when you can have 37 year old Thomas for much less. Both are showing their age in injuries. Thomas was better in 34 games than Thome was in 59, and KW is going to give up pitching and a CF for the guy? The only thing that he has that we need is that he's lefty.

The Sox come out on the short end of this in almost every aspect, unless theres another deal piggy-backed on this...

My thoughts exactly.

Whitesox4ever
11-22-2005, 01:55 PM
Eric (Memphis): Radio reports in Chicago say that the Sox are close to trading Rowand and either Contreras or McCarthy to Phi for Thome. That seems like a whole lot to give up for an aging, broke slugger. What's your take?

http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/sn2.gif Rob Neyer: (2:19 PM ET ) I don't really believe it, and if I were the White Sox I wouldn't do it. But they do need to be aggressive this winter about getting better, so maybe the talk hints at something good.

TheOldRoman
11-22-2005, 01:58 PM
Does the Passionate Shower award come for 200 or 300 replies? I can't find the tag. It's vital to this thread!

Seriously tho, where else could Thome go?
That pic (not officially a tag) is used in the worth thread ever. Check Santo's sig.

santo=dorf
11-22-2005, 01:58 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/showerhead.GIF

I noticed in one of the earlier posts that the Phills would be paying 2/3 of Thome's contract? Can't the Sox take on more than that to reduce the talent they will have to give up?

I don't want to see Chris Young, Contreas, or McCarthy traded. :(:

Randar68
11-22-2005, 01:58 PM
Through the inference it can be argued that you're a j... Standing pat is not necessarily what I'm talking about. We won with awesome pitching. If we lose some of that to add an aging thumper, which we proved we could win without, we'd be taking a step backward.

I don't think anyone in this thread (save maybe a couple random posts) is advocating trading Jose/BMac in a Thome deal. That doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue Thome with Rowand and prospects or some other combination, does it?

We won in the playoffs. We had pitching that stayed healthy all year. Can we count on that next year?

Improving the offense is all about increasing the margin for error. Take pressure off that pitching to throw a <2 ER game every day. Winning this year has zero to do with winning next year. Every team starts at 0 wins and 0 losses.

daveeym
11-22-2005, 02:00 PM
Through the inference it can be argued that you're a j... Standing pat is not necessarily what I'm talking about. We won with awesome pitching. If we lose some of that to add an aging thumper, which we proved we could win without, we'd be taking a step backward.Standing pat is exactly what you advocated above. Now losing some of that pitching and adding an aging thumper, and then not making any other moves would suck, I'd agree with you there. But that's not what you wanted.

TheOldRoman
11-22-2005, 02:00 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/showerhead.GIF
Haha, I beat you by mere seconds.
I agree with you, though. It would be a hell of a deal to get Thome for $4million a year, but the Sox are in a position to take on a little more than that. Especially if it means keeping an ace.

Tekijawa
11-22-2005, 02:03 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/showerhead.GIF



When I heard there was a Passionate Shower award I'll have to admit I wasn't thinking of this... Actually Jerry didn't even pop into my mind... I'll have to admit I'm slightly dissappointed, then again this is a family site...

sullythered
11-22-2005, 02:07 PM
Standing pat is exactly what you advocated above. Now losing some of that pitching and adding an aging thumper, and then not making any other moves would suck, I'd agree with you there. But that's not what you wanted.

I guess what I'm afraid of is trying to make moves just for the sake of making moves. If we can win big in a deal, sure, let's do it. But I haven't heard anything close to a deal that I'd feel comfortable with as of yet. Plus I'm not at all sold on Brian Anderson yet, so unless we pick up another veteran option in center, I don't want to trade Rowand, either. I say, unless we can make an absolute steal, we should just bring back the team that went wire to wire and crushed everybody in the playoffs.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 02:13 PM
I say, unless we can make an absolute steal, we should just bring back the team that went wire to wire and crushed everybody in the playoffs.

You mean the team that's already lost Blum and Carl Everett as well as the unknown status of Frank and Pauly on the FA market still?

This won't be the same exact team, end of story. The question becomes, how do you address the gaping holes in the middle of the order. #3/#4 hitters are immensely more valuable than Aaron Rowand, especially when you have someone AT LEAST as capable defensively with better potential waiting to take over.

Tekijawa
11-22-2005, 02:15 PM
Plus I'm not at all sold on Brian Anderson yet...

34 Major League at bats and you're not sold on him yet... you're a tough one to please! I have complete faith in this teams management to know our tallent and know what needs to be fixed... I'm going to give Kenny the benefit of the doubt on what ever trade he makes... if he thinks trading Buehrle, Garcia, Podsednik and Iguchi will make this team better then do it, he might have some explaining to do the last week of January (STEFF!) but I'm willing to wait and see what happens.

Baby Fisk
11-22-2005, 02:16 PM
When I heard there was a Passionate Shower award I'll have to admit I wasn't thinking of this... Actually Jerry didn't even pop into my mind... I'll have to admit I'm slightly dissappointed, then again this is a family site...
I thought everyone here thinks about Jerry when they are in the shower.

Or... is... that... just...... me......... :unsure:

sullythered
11-22-2005, 02:23 PM
You mean the team that's already lost Blum and Carl Everett as well as the unknown status of Frank and Pauly on the FA market still?

This won't be the same exact team, end of story. The question becomes, how do you address the gaping holes in the middle of the order. #3/#4 hitters are immensely more valuable than Aaron Rowand, especially when you have someone AT LEAST as capable defensively with better potential waiting to take over.

The losses of Everett and certainly Blum can be addressed in free agency, without losing anybody else. We won a certain way. I would like to maintain that style. Trading "grinders" like Rowand, and fantastic pitching like BMac and Jose for guys like Jim Thome is more like a move we would've made a few years ago, when we failed every year. I say address what we need to through free agency. Not trades, unless we are only losing prospects or the trade is a steal.

daveeym
11-22-2005, 02:28 PM
The losses of Everett and certainly Blum can be addressed in free agency, without losing anybody else. We won a certain way. I would like to maintain that style. Trading "grinders" like Rowand, and fantastic pitching like BMac and Jose for guys like Jim Thome is more like a move we would've made a few years ago, when we failed every year. I say address what we need to through free agency. Not trades, unless we are only losing prospects or the trade is a steal. There's this thing called a budget that Kenny has to worry about.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 02:28 PM
The losses of Everett and certainly Blum can be addressed in free agency, without losing anybody else. We won a certain way. I would like to maintain that style. Trading "grinders" like Rowand, and fantastic pitching like BMac and Jose for guys like Jim Thome is more like a move we would've made a few years ago, when we failed every year. I say address what we need to through free agency. Not trades, unless we are only losing prospects or the trade is a steal.

Yet there are only 1 or 2 attractive options in FA and everyone is after those players, one of them being a certain member of that WS winning team.

It's just not as simple as you make it out to be. Cleveland is going to improve. Detroit is going to improve. Hell, sit on your laurels and you may not even make the playoffs.

This team MUST address the 3/4 spots int he batting order, through trade, through FA, whatever. However, you're going to severely overpay in FA this year due to the market, and Rowand is at about his peak value right now. Anderson is a capable replacement who IMO plays superior defense. He's Kenny's pick as well, so you should be able to see the writing ont he wall.

I'm not a fan of trading any of our 5 primary starters, don't get me wrong. But there is no need for this aversion to any kinds of changes that people seem to have. Yes we won on pitching, and yes, they stayed healthy all year. Is that a safe assumption to make in 2006 and leave the pitching/offense balance woefully trecherous? No, and that is why KW is out there trying to address our offensive holes...

sullythered
11-22-2005, 02:34 PM
There's this thing called a budget that Kenny has to worry about.

A budget that can and will go up quite a bit this year because of money made during the playoffs and WS, and the bump in attendance next season that we've already seen evidence of. We can replace Blum for next to nothing, and Everett's #'s can be replaced relatively inexpensively. The only place we take a big hit is in resigning Konerko, but the cash we save on Thomas' contract can help there too. Of course we could get all mad scientist on this team and end up with the freakin' Baltimore Orioles.

Soxmissy
11-22-2005, 02:37 PM
What makes everyone think Thome is going to produce! He's been breaking down the last year. I am very suspect of his condition.:(:

Randar68
11-22-2005, 02:39 PM
A budget that can and will go up quite a bit this year because of money made during the playoffs and WS, and the bump in attendance next season that we've already seen evidence of. We can replace Blum for next to nothing, and Everett's #'s can be replaced relatively inexpensively. The only place we take a big hit is in resigning Konerko, but the cash we save on Thomas' contract can help there too. Of course we could get all mad scientist on this team and end up with the freakin' Baltimore Orioles.

I agree with this line of thinking, but Kenny has shown he won't spend willy-nilly just to keep a fan favorite or to limit himself down the road. He has a history of responsible spending that we always should feel comfortable in him maintaining, until he proves otherwise.

That being said, the trade market is where the best bang-for-buck is going to come from this year. The FA market is bare, meaning players will be overpayed versus their value relative to players already under contract.

What we have to give up to fill our holes through trades is going to be the question KW has to weigh. I think it's safe to say the Marlins are looking for prospects, based on what they got for Beckett/Lowell. Therefore, if Philly is dead-set on MLB-quality pitching or anything off the roster above and beyond Rowand, I feel comfortable that KW will not make a move without having a back-up plan ready to execute (execute meaning "do" as opposed to "pursue").

shaunburnette
11-22-2005, 02:40 PM
:hawk

"WHERES HE GONNA PLAY?"

Randar68
11-22-2005, 02:41 PM
What makes everyone think Thome is going to produce! He's been breaking down the last year. I am very suspect of his condition.:(:

:rolleyes: He had a torn ligament in his elbow and he subsequently had surgery. He's averaged over 40 HR's and an OBP over .400 for the 4 years prior to the first 1-2 months of this year that he actually played hurt.

sullythered
11-22-2005, 02:45 PM
I agree with this line of thinking, but Kenny has shown he won't spend willy-nilly just to keep a fan favorite or to limit himself down the road. He has a history of responsible spending that we always should feel comfortable in him maintaining, until he proves otherwise.

That being said, the trade market is where the best bang-for-buck is going to come from this year. The FA market is bare, meaning players will be overpayed versus their value relative to players already under contract.

What we have to give up to fill our holes through trades is going to be the question KW has to weigh. I think it's safe to say the Marlins are looking for prospects, based on what they got for Beckett/Lowell. Therefore, if Philly is dead-set on MLB-quality pitching or anything off the roster above and beyond Rowand, I feel comfortable that KW will not make a move without having a back-up plan ready to execute (execute meaning "do" as opposed to "pursue").

Points taken. I'm always more comfortable trading prospects than proven World Series pros. If the only way to improve the team, or replace what's lost is through trades, make trades using our prospects as bait.

Ol' No. 2
11-22-2005, 02:46 PM
:rolleyes: He had a torn ligament in his elbow and he subsequently had surgery. He's averaged over 40 HR's and an OBP over .400 for the 4 years prior to the first 1-2 months of this year that he actually played hurt.He also missed time last year due to back problems, which I believe he's had before. Back problems don't go away, especially as you get older. I have no idea what the problem is, but it's something that needs to be considered. Not playing 1B every day may alleviate the problem.

Tekijawa
11-22-2005, 02:47 PM
What makes everyone think Thome is going to produce! He's been breaking down the last year. I am very suspect of his condition.:(:

I think he'd be more likely to produce than the Thomas Option... 99.9% of this board has Frank penciled in at DH and contributing next year.

sullythered
11-22-2005, 02:49 PM
He also missed time last year due to back problems, which I believe he's had before. Back problems don't go away, especially as you get older. I have no idea what the problem is, but it's something that needs to be considered. Not playing 1B every day may alleviate the problem.

Any time a big power hitter starts having big injury problems and a drop off in production immediately following the end of the steroid era, I worry.

Dolly
11-22-2005, 02:53 PM
I thought everyone here thinks about Jerry when they are in the shower.

Or... is... that... just...... me......... :unsure::roflmao:

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 02:57 PM
Any time a big power hitter starts having big injury problems and a drop off in production immediately following the end of the steroid era, I worry.

Except when a guy has a very specific, non-drug-related injury, that's a pretty good reason why there was a dropoff. For example, If Manny Ramirez broke his leg, would you have suspected him of steroids? Thome broke his elbow tendon. It's been repaired.

Craig Grebeck
11-22-2005, 03:01 PM
Anyone who actually thinks keeping the team completely intact knows nothing about what it takes to win multiple championships. Our offense was absolutely putrid at times last year, and it caused us to go through many slumps. We had no one on the team who could post a consistent OBP, and Thome would bring us that. People need to realize that the lineup we had was a minimal effect on us winning it all, we won because of our pitching. So if we improve the line up, we are just insuring ourselves against a likely regression by our bullpen/staff. I believe we can get Thome without losing Jose. It's just negotiations, Kenny is too smart to break up the five.

sullythered
11-22-2005, 03:02 PM
Except when a guy has a very specific, non-drug-related injury, that's a pretty good reason why there was a dropoff. For example, If Manny Ramirez broke his leg, would you have suspected him of steroids? Thome broke his elbow tendon. It's been repaired.

Plus he has back problems which is non specific, and can often be attributed directly to steroids.

MUsoxfan
11-22-2005, 03:05 PM
Plus he has back problems which is non specific, and can often be attributed directly to steroids.

:?:

Now you're grasping at straws

Randar68
11-22-2005, 03:07 PM
Plus he has back problems which is non specific, and can often be attributed directly to steroids.

HUH!? I've never heard that one before. Shrinkage as shown by Sosa is what you should be looking for.

Thome's never been overly muscular or muscle-bound and has been about the same size since he was 24. This is just getting silly now. Any deal, OF COURSE, would be pending clearance of doctors via a complete physical...

KRS1
11-22-2005, 03:07 PM
Plus he has back problems which is non specific, and can often be attributed directly to steroids.

Yes,any medical proffesional can say any sort of injury is a direct result of steriod usage. Did anyone bother to think that the guy is 35 and maybe his body was just tired of playing day in and day out for over 15 years. That being said I just don't like oft. injured geriatrics as an ingrediant to our success especially if it costs us ANY of our org. pitchers.

Tekijawa
11-22-2005, 03:08 PM
Plus he has back problems which is non specific, and can often be attributed directly to steroids.

Me, my dad, and my mom have Back problems... we have never used steriods... My wife gets a sore back sometimes and i's due to STRESS... if you're going to make stupid comments at least try and back them up with FACT. People who use Steriod tend ot have bad acne, there for everyone under the age of 18 uses steriods...

Tekijawa
11-22-2005, 03:15 PM
That being said I just don't like oft. injured geriatrics as an ingrediant to our success especially if it costs us ANY of our org. pitchers.

I agree, especialy when we have 6 very good pitchers and 5 spots to pitch them in... I think that we should avoid any trade that makes our team stronger when we only have to trade players from two positions we have a SURPLUS of talent in.... If anything we should be thinking about trading AJ or Uribe, Crede, or Iguchi, who we don't have anyone waiting in the minors to replace them. Unless we can swing a trade for Pujols for Borchard, and Marte!
You people need to be realistic... Thome won't come for free, Delgado won't come for free, Helton won't come for free... we need to cover our ***es incase Konerko get's scooped up by another team... it's going to take a lot more than Lance Broadway and Ben Davis to get this done. We're going to lose someone we like, we're going to give up a player that contributed to a world series for one that stayed home this year... the move will make the team stonger and fill the ONE GLARING HOLE we have... but if we stand pat then a lot of teams will pass us by. Maybe not necessarily Thome but we will trade for someone.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 03:18 PM
Yes,any medical proffesional can say any sort of injury is a direct result of steriod usage. Did anyone bother to think that the guy is 35 and maybe his body was just tired of playing day in and day out for over 15 years. That being said I just don't like oft. injured geriatrics as an ingrediant to our success especially if it costs us ANY of our org. pitchers.

Before we call 1B/DH's that have had one major injury in a 15 year career "injury prone", it's probably best to actually look at the number of games played every year...

He's older and had injury problems LAST year. Cartainly raises the question and concern given his age, but due to his record and his role as DH with us vs. playing 1B every day, it's premature to call him "oft-injured" or "injury prone", IMO.

Other than his injury-plagued partial 2005 season, his worst year in the majors as a full-time player was better than Paul Konerko's career BEST 2005.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 03:23 PM
Yes,any medical proffesional can say any sort of injury is a direct result of steriod usage. Did anyone bother to think that the guy is 35 and maybe his body was just tired of playing day in and day out for over 15 years. That being said I just don't like oft. injured geriatrics as an ingrediant to our success especially if it costs us ANY of our org. pitchers.

Oft-injured?

2000: 557ABs - .269 / .398 / .531 w/ 37HR/106RBI
2001: 526ABs - .291 / .416 / .624 w/ 49HR/124RBI
2002: 480ABS - .304 / .445 / .677 w/ 52HR/118RBI
2003: 578ABs - .266 / .385 / .573 w/ 47HR/131RBI
2004: 508ABs - .275 / .396 / .581 w/ 42HRs/105RBI
2005: 193ABs - .207 / .360 / .352 w/ 7HRs/30RBI

So before last year, he's had 500+ABs each year except for once (when he was at 480), he's put up an OBP around .400 and hit about 40HR every year as well.

Net: Every year but last year he's been pretty much excellent. Despite the back.

DickAllen72
11-22-2005, 03:30 PM
I was just speaking with someone in the Sox organiaztion-- I know you are happy for me! This trade is absolute rubbish. Bruce is full of it!!
Thank you!

This supposed trade would absolutely suck for the White Sox.

Rowand straight up for Thome +50% of his salary would be about right.

Tekijawa
11-22-2005, 03:32 PM
2005: 59ABs - .207 / .360 / .352 w/ 7HRs/30RBI

Every year but last year he's been pretty much excellent. Despite the back.
Only 7 HR and 30RBI in 59 AB's? he mush have been Juicin'

I doubt that he would have kept up those numbers but, wow...

Randar68
11-22-2005, 03:35 PM
Only 7 HR and 30RBI in 59 AB's? he mush have been Juicin'

I doubt that he would have kept up those numbers but, wow...

It was 59 games, 193 AB's...

After the first 2 weeks of the season, the back and then the elbow went, and his season started sliding down the crapper...

Tekijawa
11-22-2005, 03:40 PM
It was 59 games, 193 AB's...

After the first 2 weeks of the season, the back and then the elbow went, and his season started sliding down the crapper...

That's a lot less impressive then...

I don't want him!

Palehose13
11-22-2005, 03:46 PM
My lord...what is this going to be like when there are credible sources offering up information? :o:

Jerko
11-22-2005, 03:47 PM
My lord...what is this going to be like when there are credible sources offering up information? :o:

The trade deadline.

daveeym
11-22-2005, 03:59 PM
HUH!? I've never heard that one before. Shrinkage as shown by Sosa is what you should be looking for.

Thome's never been overly muscular or muscle-bound and has been about the same size since he was 24. This is just getting silly now. Any deal, OF COURSE, would be pending clearance of doctors via a complete physical... Move the letters around and Sullythered turns into Agent for Rowand. Seriously try it.