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View Full Version : Minoso up for HOF election


buehrle4cy05
11-21-2005, 07:04 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051121&content_id=1270904&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Didn't see this posted. The next step is him getting in!:)

Dan Mega
11-21-2005, 07:06 PM
Good for him, he deserves it!

MUsoxfan
11-21-2005, 07:06 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think he'll ever get in

TheDarkGundam
11-21-2005, 07:08 PM
He's got my vote!



Now...if only I HAD a vote...

chaerulez
11-21-2005, 07:47 PM
He was a very good player, just not great so I don't think he deserves the entry into the HOF. He wasn't a regular until age 28 so that really hurt his chances at getting a shot at good career stats. If he had reached 2500 hits while maintaining an average close to .300 I think he would have a real shot. But if a guy like Don Mattingly can't get in, I don't see much chances for Minnie.

Hitmen77
11-21-2005, 09:29 PM
What we need is for someone to develop a documentary about Minnie called "This Old Cuban" and shamelessly promote it on the TV station that the White Sox own.

Lip Man 1
11-21-2005, 09:33 PM
I'd love to see him and Billy Pierce get in. They both absolutely deserve it.

Lip

Hitmen77
11-21-2005, 09:35 PM
He was a very good player, just not great so I don't think he deserves the entry into the HOF. He wasn't a regular until age 28 so that really hurt his chances at getting a shot at good career stats. If he had reached 2500 hits while maintaining an average close to .300 I think he would have a real shot. But if a guy like Don Mattingly can't get in, I don't see much chances for Minnie.

I didn't know Don Mattingly played in the Negro Leagues. :redface:

The mlb website says that Minnie is up for HOF election as a Negro League candidate.

TornLabrum
11-21-2005, 10:04 PM
I'd love to see him and Billy Pierce get in. They both absolutely deserve it.

Lip

I told Billy at our July luncheon that the only reason he isn't in is because he wore the wrong pinstripes. He said, "You know, you might be right."

TornLabrum
11-21-2005, 10:05 PM
I didn't know Don Mattingly played in the Negro Leagues. :redface:

The mlb website says that Minnie is up for HOF election as a Negro League candidate.

I don't care how he gets in, as long as they also list his major league credentials.

buehrle4cy05
11-21-2005, 10:40 PM
I didn't know Don Mattingly played in the Negro Leagues. :redface:

The mlb website says that Minnie is up for HOF election as a Negro League candidate.

Wait! I got it! We can pretend that Ron Santo was in the Negro Leagues, then he'll finally get his deserved spot in the hall!

gowhitesox
11-21-2005, 10:42 PM
I hope Minnie Minoso gets in the Hall of Fame he deserves it. I have his autograph from back in 1976.

Hitmen77
11-21-2005, 10:56 PM
I don't care how he gets in, as long as they also list his major league credentials.

The website didn't explain (or at least I didn't see that it did) if they would be considering a candidate's entire career including the Negro Leagues and the Majors. I agree that they should consider Minnie's MLB credentials too.

TheDarkGundam
11-21-2005, 10:57 PM
I hope Minnie Minoso gets in the Hall of Fame he deserves it. I have his autograph from back in 1976.

I got his autograph at the last soxfest. :D:
I love how he wrote "#9" as part of his signature. Awesome.

Hitmen77
11-21-2005, 11:16 PM
Another article on the HOF election:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cs-051121soxminosohall,1,425750.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed

PaulDrake
11-22-2005, 09:30 AM
He was a very good player, just not great so I don't think he deserves the entry into the HOF. He wasn't a regular until age 28 so that really hurt his chances at getting a shot at good career stats. If he had reached 2500 hits while maintaining an average close to .300 I think he would have a real shot. But if a guy like Don Mattingly can't get in, I don't see much chances for Minnie. I felt like banging my head against the wall when I read this.

jortafan
11-22-2005, 10:21 AM
I would think you'd have to consider all his stats, not just Negro League.

I say that because Minoso only played two seasons in those leagues, before being signed by Bill Veeck's Cleveland INdians and languishing in their minor league system (mostly Triple-A) for three more valuable seasons of playing time.

Obviously, Minoso the Negro leaguer is not going to get in the Hall of Fame, and Minoso the major leaguer (no, I'm not trying to denigrate the quality of play in the Negro Leagues) falls short in the career statistics that so many veterans committee members consider to be important.

Anyway, if this new Negro Leagues committee created by the Hall of Fame can help give Minnie the boost his career needs to get him recognition in Cooperstown, then it would be worth it. I'd have no problem including the New York Cubans on the list of teams Minoso played for, along with Cleveland, St. Louis and Washington. I would think the logo on the cap on his bronze plaque would be that of the White Sox.

Go Minnie!

Besides, in my wildest dreams, Minnie gets into the Hall before Ron Santo. Just think of how Cubs fans would whine and cry if that happened.

mrfourni
11-22-2005, 10:22 AM
From the Daily quickie on espn.com:

What a great move by MLB to create a special Hall ballot for Negro League and pre-Negro League players, including Minnie Minoso and Buck O'Neil. 39 total candidates will each get an up-or-down vote from 12 panelists, with 9 "Yes" votes needed for Hall entry.



This sounds a little easier than the typical HOF voting. I think he gets in.

TDog
11-22-2005, 11:59 AM
Besides, in my wildest dreams, Minnie gets into the Hall before Ron Santo. Just think of how Cubs fans would whine and cry if that happened.

Ron Santo never gets in. Unless he pays admission.

chaerulez
11-22-2005, 12:24 PM
I felt like banging my head against the wall when I read this.

And why's that? Because I can keep my feelings of being a Sox fan apart from judging a players HOF credentials? If his Negro leagues days are being considered as people have said, then he has more of a shot at getting in. But based on his MLB stats alone, he won't and in my opinion doesn't deserve to get in. If Minnie gets in what is the argument that Santo shouldn't (and I hope no one thinks he should)?

Vernam
11-22-2005, 01:24 PM
And why's that? Because I can keep my feelings of being a Sox fan apart from judging a players HOF credentials? If his Negro leagues days are being considered as people have said, then he has more of a shot at getting in. But based on his MLB stats alone, he won't and in my opinion doesn't deserve to get in. If Minnie gets in what is the argument that Santo shouldn't (and I hope no one thinks he should)?Minoso did not play in MLB until age 28, and the new list published yesterday reflects Cooperstown researchers' views on which Negro League players deserve reconsideration. After the initial burst of can't-miss inductees like Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige, a consensus emerged that other black ballplayers deserved reconsideration. In Minoso's case, we're talking about at least three and as many as eight years out of his prime where he was denied the chance to rack up MLB stats.

I don't think you can substitute the name "Santo" for "Minoso" in any of the above sentences. See this recent story (http://tinyurl.com/c2l8q) for further detail. Grantland Rice put Minoso in a class of three with Mays and Mantle. I'm not saying he ultimately measured up to those two, but he came a helluva lot closer than Santo ever did.

Vernam

Fenway
11-22-2005, 01:30 PM
I'll never forget Minoso showing up at Bill Veeck's funeral in uniform

PaulDrake
11-22-2005, 02:19 PM
And why's that? Because I can keep my feelings of being a Sox fan apart from judging a players HOF credentials? If his Negro leagues days are being considered as people have said, then he has more of a shot at getting in. But based on his MLB stats alone, he won't and in my opinion doesn't deserve to get in. If Minnie gets in what is the argument that Santo shouldn't (and I hope no one thinks he should)? Read Vernam's post.

MinnieMinoso
11-22-2005, 02:48 PM
As you can tell from my moniker, Minnie is my favorite Sox player of all time.He is in my hall of fame [ The one in my head]. He was one guy who always gave everything he had in every game he played. His loyalty to us Sox fans and the Sox organization is not matched by any other player.

caracascat
11-22-2005, 04:04 PM
Also Minnie had to play some of his prime years in Mexico because he was denied entry in the Majors. This should count for something!

Applem2
11-22-2005, 04:30 PM
But based on his MLB stats alone, he won't and in my opinion doesn't deserve to get in. If Minnie gets in what is the argument that Santo shouldn't (and I hope no one thinks he should)?

Bill James believes Minoso belongs in the Hall of Fame. Read this interesting article:http://www.all-baseball.com/bronxbanter/archives/003051.html

PaulDrake
11-22-2005, 05:03 PM
Bill James believes Minoso belongs in the Hall of Fame. Read this interesting article:http://www.all-baseball.com/bronxbanter/archives/003051.html That's a great link. I'm cautiously optimistic that Minoso's time has finally come. He's overlooked, forgotten, and underrated. I'm sorry but I don't think that should ever happen among hard core White Sox fans. I know almost everyone here never saw him play. If you're really interested ask someone you know who did.

TornLabrum
11-22-2005, 08:03 PM
That's a great link. I'm cautiously optimistic that Minoso's time has finally come. He's overlooked, forgotten, and underrated. I'm sorry but I don't think that should ever happen among hard core White Sox fans. I know almost everyone here never saw him play. If you're really interested ask someone you know who did.

I saw him play. He was a great player. He typically lead the league in HBP, and not all of that was because he was sacrificing himself for his team. He was fast and had power. He, Jim Busby, and Jim Rivera were the three guys who put the GO in the Go-Go Sox.

Back in the '80s Bill James did a backward progression of his career before age 28. According to those progressions, he would have had just over 3000 hits, a can't miss stat for an HOF candidate. Too bad his skin happened to be the wrong color for those years of major league play he missed.

hose
11-23-2005, 07:19 AM
It's a no brainer.

Long over due.

Minnie:bandance:

bobowhite
11-23-2005, 09:28 AM
Great guy and (I never saw him but heard reports that) he was a great player. Real hard-nosed but produced results. Talented and driven.

minnieistheman
02-15-2006, 04:27 PM
January 5, 2006 from Waxingamerica.com


Minnie Minoso and the Hall of Fame

As reported last November by the Negro League Baseball Players Association (http://www.nlbpa.com/21nov2005.html):
A five-member screening committee of Negro league baseball historians, appointed by the Hall of Fame's Board of Directors, has selected a slate of Negro leagues and pre-Negro leagues candidates for consideration for election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame.
Then on February 27, 2006 a special 12 member voting committee of historians will meet in Tampa to vote none, one, or more into the Hall of Fame. There are 39 candidates. (http://www.nlbpa.com/21nov2005.html)

This special ballot is profound for two reasons. First it provides an opportunity for some great ballplayers to get fair consideration for induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame. Secondly, the voting will be conducted by a dozen of the most knowledgeable men and women in regards to Negro League history.
While there were special elections in the past, and elections by the "Old Timers Committee," Negro League players, slighted during the height of their careers continue to be slighted after they ran their last base.
Election to the Hall of Fame will not be easy. Fortunately there is no artificial limit on the number of players that can enter the Hall of fame through this ballot. However, to make it to Cooperstown, the player must receive a three quarters vote, or nine of the twelve committee members. Considering the members have greatly differing areas of expertise, although some have co-written books together, most are academics with strong opinions, so nine votes could be very tough for any candidate to accumulate.
I have a special interest in the outcome, having railed for years about the injustice done to one player who should have been elected long ago.

His real name is Saturino Orestes Armas Minoso y Arrieta, born in Havana, Cuba, November 29, 1922.
Bill James considers Minnie Minoso the 85th best player in the history of the game:
Minoso didn't get to play in the majors until he was 28 years old, but had a better career after age 28 than almost any Hall of Fame left/right fielder. Minoso hit for power, drove in 100 runs like clockwork, was a Gold Glove outfielder and one of the best baserunners of his time. Had he gotten the chance to play in the Majors when he was 21 years old, I think he'd probably be rated among the top thirty players of all time.
Minoso was in between. He didn't play long enough in the Negro Leagues like Buck Leonard and Josh Gibson, and he did not get to the Majors early, like a 22 year-old Ernie Banks.
He was 21 in 1945 when he played his first fall season of Cuban Baseball with Maraino hitting .294. The next year was he hitting .309 for the New York Cubans. The following season, 1947, Minoso again led the New York Cubans as they captured the Negro National League pennant and easily defeated the Cleveland Buckeyes to win the Negro League World Series. In that Series, Minoso was the offensive star, batting over .400.
I first saw Minoso play against Boston at Comiskey Park in 1952, the second of three consecutive years that he led the American League in stolen bases with 22. By that time Minoso was a star by anyone's standards.
The closest I ever got to Minoso was in 1954. The Chicago White Sox stayed at the Piccadilly Hotel, just two blocks from my home. Once the season started, every day after school we headed to the Piccadilly about 3:30 pm. The White Sox would be returning from the day game by 4:00 pm. Every White Sox player stayed at the Piccadilly except for two. Jack Harshmann had his entire family with him and lived in an apartment about a mile away.
Minoso drove up to the hotel in his dark green Cadillac convertible; it was a '54 El Dorado. He dropped off the first of the great Venezuelan shortstops, Chico Carrasquel, and then headed further south. Word was that he lived somewhere near 63rd Street.
Minoso was black. He was the first black Cuban to play in the Major Leagues. He was the first black Latin player.
From 1954 until 1960, my last summer hanging around the hotel, I never saw a black, man or woman, ball player or not, go through the front doors of the Piccadilly Hotel. In places like Baltimore, or Boston, or in the deep south during spring training things were worse:
The Pyramid Hotel in Tampa is a quite modest upstairs establishment in a somewhat less than fashionable district. This was the spring training home of Minoso and his Negro teammates Bob Boyd, Connie Johnson, and Earl Battey. Sport Magazine, August, 1954, p91.
Rob Neyer says:
Itís fairly safe to assume, though, that if Minoso had grown up in Georgia with pale skin rather than in Cuba with dark skin, heíd have reached the major leagues three or four years before he did. Letís be conservative, and give Minoso four more seasons. He was good for approximately 175 hits per season, and 175 times four is 700 hits. Add 700 to 1,963, and you get 2,663 hits.
There are, to be sure, players with more than 2,663 hits who arenít in the Hall of Fame. But I think youíd be hard-pressed to find anybody with 2,663 hits and Minosoís broad base of skills who hasnít been elected or wonít be. Bill James rates Minoso as the 10th-greatest left fielder ever, and I think thatís just about right.
Some say Minoso was born in 1925. It doesn't make a bit of difference. It would have meant three fewer potential seasons in the majors. He didn't need the three years. Minoso languished for two years in the minors once Cleveland signed him in 1949. They didn't understand his style of baseball-speed, hustle, and potentially leading the majors with hit by pitches was not a white 'Yankee' thing.
In 1951 he played his first full season, and by all rights, should have been named Rookie of the Year. That cannot be fixed. The special committee can fix Minoso's long overdue induction into the Hall of Fame. This fall, Minoso saw something he always dreamed about and never thought would happen in his lifetime-the White Sox winning a World Championship.
This committee can make sure Minoso lives to see his induction into the Hall of Fame. He is a man of great talent and character, who while overlooked during his prime, was among the best.
Members of the committee and their areas of expertise are:
Todd Bolton, Latin America
Greg Bond, 19th Century (Here at the University of Wisconsin!)
Adrian Burgos, Latin America
Dick Clark, Negro leagues
Ray Doswell, overall knowledge
Leslie Heaphy, Women's History, Negro leagues
Larry Hogan, overall knowledge
Neil Lanctot, Negro leagues eastern teams
Larry Lester, Negro leagues
Sammy Miller, Eastern and Western teams
Jim Overmyer, Eastern teams and 19th century
Robert Peterson, overall knowledge

mjharrison72
02-15-2006, 05:34 PM
Is there a place where I can see Minoso's Negro league career stats?
His ML stats are fantastic, for sure, but probably not quite HOF material on their own... don't throw stuff at me just for saying that. :duck:

Railsplitter
02-15-2006, 06:11 PM
Minoso would have hit .300 if it wern't for Veeck's activating him in 1976 and 1980. However, I don't see where Minnie led the league in any major stats.

ewokpelts
02-15-2006, 06:14 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think he'll ever get in

This is his best chance. EVERY player on the negro league ballot gets voted on by the comittee. It's a simple yes/no vote. There's talk that quite a few negro leaguers may get in.

Gene

PennStater98r
02-15-2006, 06:20 PM
But if a guy like Don Mattingly can't get in, I don't see much chances for Minnie.

:minnie I hope ---

:tealpolice:

was intended.

PennStater98r
02-15-2006, 06:27 PM
Oh, and by the way, Minnie is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. I met him during Game 2 of the ALDS. He was walking through the concourse. I shook his hand and was amazed at how it just swallowed mine. I told him that my dad said he was a true hustling ball player, and Minnie told me to "Give his love to your father!" He chatted with me a bit more and joked about the police that were walking around the concourse as well. It was a true highlight for me.

minnieistheman
02-15-2006, 09:30 PM
There are very few Negro League players who have decent stats. Some are working on this now:



Q2 - What is the current state of Negro League stats?

A2 - The good news is that we know a lot more than we did 30 years ago.
The bad news is that even if we recorded the results of every existing box
score we would not have a very good database. In many old boxscores AB's
are not recorded, so something as simple as batting average cannot be
calculated. Even in later boxes RBI's might not be mentioned. Walks are hit
and miss, so OBA is also up in the air. Also, not every game has a boxscore.
Many times only a final would be reported. This is especially true for the
years during WWII. Also, teams in big cities got better coverage, so a
slugger in a smaller market loses home runs simply because when we search
for them today we find that nobody was there to record his feats.

The Negro Leagues themselves from time to time tried to compile seasonal
statistics, but these too were incomplete.

Both Jim Riley and John Holway are rumored to have statistical encyclopedias
in the works, and MacMillan has a Negro Leagues section.

For some insight into Minosos's career:
http://www.negroleaguebaseball.com/teams/New_York_Cubans.html

...the Cubans did not capture a league title until 1947 when they took both the pennant and the Negro World Series championship defeating the Cleveland Buckeyes. The 1947 squad was led by future major league star "Minnie" Minoso and Luis Tiant, father of the Boston Red Sox great.


though this was reported about Minoso:
http://www.theforgottenleagues.com/minnie_minosoBIO.htm

This young Cuban third baseman broke in with a .309 average for the New York Cubans in 1946 and continued his hot hitting into the next season. He was the top hitter on the team with a torrid .336 average going into August, Before cooling off and finishing at .294. Minoso's offensive production from his leadoff spot in the batting order aided the Cubans as they captured the Negro National League pennant and won World Series from the Negro American League's Cleveland Buckeyes. He was the starting third baseman in both the 1947 and 1948 East-West All-Star games before entering the major leagues with the Cleveland Indians in 1949

I have one more source that I will try to post tomorrow.

Lip Man 1
02-15-2006, 09:34 PM
Minnie:

You need to be careful about posting complete stories/articles from other sources. That is a copyright violation and could get this site shut down. Please post links.

Lip

spiffie
02-15-2006, 10:28 PM
Back in the '80s Bill James did a backward progression of his career before age 28. According to those progressions, he would have had just over 3000 hits, a can't miss stat for an HOF candidate. Too bad his skin happened to be the wrong color for those years of major league play he missed.
But stat geeks don't know anything except that Billy Beane is God. This opinion obviously counts for nothing since he's a propellorhead who never looks up from his stats.

Seriously though, I just finished "What Happened to the HOF?" and was surprised at how strong a case he was able to make for Minoso, since I admit to kind of being stuck thinking of him as the nice old guy always at the park who wanted to play in 7 or 8 decades.

Johnny Mostil
02-15-2006, 11:07 PM
Minoso would have hit .300 if it wern't for Veeck's activating him in 1976 and 1980. However, I don't see where Minnie led the league in any major stats.

Is this right? According to http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/minosmi01.shtml, Minoso went 1-for-8 in 1976, and 0-for-2 in 1980. That brought his average down from 0.2987 (1962-for-6569) to .2984 (1963-for-6579). That really shouldn't change his credentials (assuming my math is accurate . . .).

Also, he appears to have led the league in hits in 1960, in total bases in 1954, in doubles in 1957, in triples in 1951, '54, and '56, in stolen bases in 1951, '52, and '53. Regarding the "major" categories (BA, HR, and RBI, I assume?), he indeed never led the league, though he was top ten in batting average eight times (1951-2nd, 1953-4th, 1954-3rd, 1956-6th, 1957-6th, 1958-9th, 1959-5th, and 1960-3rd), top ten in HR twice (1954-10th, 1958-10th), and top ten in RBI five times (1953-6th, 1954-4th, 1957-3rd, 1959-8th, and 1960-2nd).

Mohoney
02-15-2006, 11:23 PM
I hope he gets in. Remember, it's the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, not the MLB Hall of Fame and Museum. Let's hope that this game has truly progressed as much as we hope it has, and numbers that are undoubtedly severely skewed by years of discrimination won't keep worthy men out of Cooperstown.

That being said, I'll leave it up to the historians who know a hell of a lot more than me to make the final call.

gowhitesox
02-16-2006, 01:38 AM
I sure hope Minnie Minoso gets in. I'd vote for him.

ewokpelts
02-16-2006, 12:40 PM
Minnie's Profile at the Hall of Fame site:

http://www.baseballhalloffame.com/hofers_and_honorees/minoso_minnie.htm

And here's the info on the Negro League vote:

http://www.baseballhalloffame.com/hofers_and_honorees/negro_leaguers.htm

Gene

ode to veeck
02-16-2006, 01:03 PM
Buck O'Neil and Minnie and the leading candidates among the 39 in the special vote group, according to several sources

Cmon Minnie!

ode to veeck
02-16-2006, 01:07 PM
a nice Minnie page: http://www.theforgottenleagues.com/minnie_minosoBIO.htm

Amazingly he played 9 seasons in the Mexican leagues in his 40s, retiring after hititng .265 at age 50

jortafan
02-16-2006, 04:40 PM
Amazingly he played 9 seasons in the Mexican leagues in his 40s, retiring after hititng .265 at age 50

That's why Minoso is already a member of the Mexican Baseball Hall of Fame, for his time as a player and manager there.

One might want to check this out. http://www.salondelafama.com.mx/salondelafama/trono/alfasf.asp?x=120
It's the bio for Minoso that is included on the Mexican hall of fame website.